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RedHost
04-18-2013, 05:17 PM
I was unable to get involved in the first weekend of the Enhancement Alpha due to time constraints. So I was quite anxious to get involved for this second pass, which contained most of the caster classes. However, I find myself a bit uncertain exactly how to provide my feedback.

I had expected there to be quite a bit of tweaking of abilities and rearranging of numbers that needed to be done. Things such as Pale Masters being so harshly penalized on all non-Negative spells. That type of a problem can be adjusted until it works well, which is the entire point of pre-release revisions to a game system such as this!

However, what I found after reviewing several of the caster trees is that they are flawed on a much high level of design than this. Their failings are not something that can be worked through by adjusting a few abilities here and there. Instead, they are designed to very narrowly focus what abilities casters can use effectively.


When I saw the Cleric trees I was shocked and disappointed. But I was willing to give the team that designed it the benefit of the doubt. Many people see Clerics as 'Healers', and the trees provided for them certainly reflect that philosophy. It is a disappointment to see the people who are deciding the future of this game to buy into that idea, but it is not catastrophic or anything. There will certainly be some die-hard Cleric players who storm out in a rage over it, but that is going to happen with any type of change to the game. And I was optimistic about the other casters receiving better treatment. After all, just a couple of years back there were developer comments about how the Favored Soul 'Divine Avenger' melee PrE was shaping up to use melee attacks that debuffed and had special on-crit effects. So clearly the developers were aware of how people enjoy playing their game. Right?

Well, it seems that I was quite mistaken. Aside from Favored Soul lacking any kind of melee-caster Tree (which really confuses me, seeing as they had done enough work on one for the old enhancement system to comment about some of the abilities on the general forum) it shares a common buff-bot tree with Clerics. Their offensive casting tree has some extensive problems as well, but I will focus on those specifics elsewhere and keep this thread focused on the abstract design, rather than the specific issues.

Also disturbing to me is the absolute lack of any spell critical damage enhancers. This was a core part of every single type of caster out there. A barbarian's 10k+ damage Adrenaline attack seems impressive, but they are only able to get there by stacking critical multiplier increases. Those increases still exist through Epic Destinies, while magical criticals have been largely neutered. I realize that the new skill + AP-spent-in-tree system allows for the potential to get slightly higher spell powers than the old system did. But nowhere near enough to make up for the loss of spell critical damage.


There are a great deal of specific problems with each of the individual Trees. And I will give my feedback on those later, in the more focused sub-forums and surveys. But I wanted to express this concern about the higher level decisions involved. After reviewing everything, it really feels like casters are being pushed into a very narrowly defined skill set, without many options to do more than that. For example, you can be an Evoker who uses Force spells. You liked to be able to use Web SLAs in addition to Evoking before? Well that's too bad. You liked to be able to build up your Ice spells in addition to your main choice in element? Well that's too bad. That is not 'being an Evoker Archmage'. And all of those Favored Souls who actually used the weapons that they were given Proficiency and Specialization in should not be expecting any kind of support for that! That isn't part of 'being a Divine'. Instead casters are being locked into very narrowly defined roles. Ones that have little to no reflection on how people actually play DDO.

This shift in direction, from free form characters capable of being built to meet the needs and imagination of the players towards very narrowly defined 'template' characters, is very disturbing to me. And it is not one that I felt like I could really express in focused feedback on the individual class trees themselves, and so I figured this would be the most reasonable place to voice my opposition.

Charononus
04-18-2013, 05:21 PM
welcome to the swg nge, I mean ddo enhancement pass.

danotmano1998
04-18-2013, 06:06 PM
However, what I found after reviewing several of the caster trees is that they are flawed on a much high level of design than this. Their failings are not something that can be worked through by adjusting a few abilities here and there. Instead, they are designed to very narrowly focus what abilities casters can use effectively.

Instead casters are being locked into very narrowly defined roles. Ones that have little to no reflection on how people actually play DDO.

This shift in direction, from free form characters capable of being built to meet the needs and imagination of the players towards very narrowly defined 'template' characters, is very disturbing to me.

This is precisely what most of the folks were fearing for the enhancement pass, and it appears that it was a very valid concern.

I hope that the people that CAN affect change in the game do so, before this all goes live and destroys the core that so many people love. The heart and soul of D&D as opposed to most generic MMO's is the customization of builds. If that gets neutered, so will this game, pure and simple.

oberon131313
04-18-2013, 06:25 PM
welcome to the swg nge, I mean ddo enhancement pass.

You mean CU.

RedHost
04-18-2013, 08:02 PM
You mean CU.

This actually does remind me quite a lot of the Combat Update.

Sony's New Game Enhancements update actually removed several 'classes' from the game. Not altered them to no longer function as they had, but entirely removed the things that they had formerly done from the game in it's entirety, which lead to a ~very~ mass exodus from the game that left it essentially empty. I do not think that this is comparable to that at all. However, these changes do seem quite similar to Sony's prior Combat Update, where they radically altered the style in which people had to play the game. Essentially forcing a new combat system onto their players, similar to the way that this enhancement change limits viable playstyles in DDO. That was when I quit playing SWG, btw.

I have talked to some of the people who work on DDO. And they have all been very passionate and interested in the game that they work on, so in no way am I suggesting that "No one at Turbine knows what's going on!!11!!". But when I look at these changes, especially to the Divine classes, I can only find two reasons why they have turned out the way that they have. Either those designing these trees have absolutely no idea how players like to play and create characters, which is a bit frightening considering that these changes will shape the way that people play (or don't play) DDO from here on out. Or else they understand that they are removing entire styles of play from the game and have made the active decision to move things in this direction. Either way, things do not seem good.

Charononus
04-18-2013, 11:15 PM
This actually does remind me quite a lot of the Combat Update.

Sony's New Game Enhancements update actually removed several 'classes' from the game. Not altered them to no longer function as they had, but entirely removed the things that they had formerly done from the game in it's entirety, which lead to a ~very~ mass exodus from the game that left it essentially empty. I do not think that this is comparable to that at all. However, these changes do seem quite similar to Sony's prior Combat Update, where they radically altered the style in which people had to play the game. Essentially forcing a new combat system onto their players, similar to the way that this enhancement change limits viable playstyles in DDO. That was when I quit playing SWG, btw.

I have talked to some of the people who work on DDO. And they have all been very passionate and interested in the game that they work on, so in no way am I suggesting that "No one at Turbine knows what's going on!!11!!". But when I look at these changes, especially to the Divine classes, I can only find two reasons why they have turned out the way that they have. Either those designing these trees have absolutely no idea how players like to play and create characters, which is a bit frightening considering that these changes will shape the way that people play (or don't play) DDO from here on out. Or else they understand that they are removing entire styles of play from the game and have made the active decision to move things in this direction. Either way, things do not seem good.
A kind of philosophical question here with it. If you completely break a build is it the same as removing a class?

eachna_gislin
04-19-2013, 03:25 AM
When I saw the Cleric trees I was shocked and disappointed. But I was willing to give the team that designed it the benefit of the doubt. Many people see Clerics as 'Healers', and the trees provided for them certainly reflect that philosophy. It is a disappointment to see the people who are deciding the future of this game to buy into that idea, but it is not catastrophic or anything. There will certainly be some die-hard Cleric players who storm out in a rage over it, but that is going to happen with any type of change to the game. And I was optimistic about the other casters receiving better treatment. After all, just a couple of years back there were developer comments about how the Favored Soul 'Divine Avenger' melee PrE was shaping up to use melee attacks that debuffed and had special on-crit effects. So clearly the developers were aware of how people enjoy playing their game. Right?

Well, it seems that I was quite mistaken. Aside from Favored Soul lacking any kind of melee-caster Tree (which really confuses me, seeing as they had done enough work on one for the old enhancement system to comment about some of the abilities on the general forum) it shares a common buff-bot tree with Clerics. Their offensive casting tree has some extensive problems as well, but I will focus on those specifics elsewhere and keep this thread focused on the abstract design, rather than the specific issues.

I'm not sure if you meant it to sound this way or not, but...the above reads like you were basically willing to throw clerics under the bus as long as the other casting classes were safe. And, that any cleric player that doesn't want to be limited to a healbot in heroic levels is immaturely storming off if they stop playing their cleric or TR to a new class.

If you didn't mean it that way, you might want to consider previewing what you write before you hit submit.

If it is what you meant, well then that's just cold.

In order to effect ANY change at all, forum members have to stick together as something resembling a cohesive group. Forumites are already something like only 5% of the player base, and even among forum members a sizeable chunk never wander over to the Lamannia boards. If we're lucky, something like 2-3% of the players are commenting on these changes. ANY player-driven change at all will only occur if there's some sort of clear consensus. Not every change that has the group behind it will happen, but any changes that do occur will be because of the major minority backing them. It undermines the group unity when people explicitly state they're willing to sacrifice others for the benefit of their smaller pet group.

eachna_gislin
04-19-2013, 03:33 AM
This actually does remind me quite a lot of the Combat Update.

Sony's New Game Enhancements update actually removed several 'classes' from the game. Not altered them to no longer function as they had, but entirely removed the things that they had formerly done from the game in it's entirety, which lead to a ~very~ mass exodus from the game that left it essentially empty. I do not think that this is comparable to that at all. However, these changes do seem quite similar to Sony's prior Combat Update, where they radically altered the style in which people had to play the game. Essentially forcing a new combat system onto their players, similar to the way that this enhancement change limits viable playstyles in DDO. That was when I quit playing SWG, btw.


I used to play SWG as well. I quit indirectly because of the NGE and CU. We just lost so many in my first guild and then my second that I finally gave up.

I still miss SWG, best crafting system in a MMO that I've played in, bar none.

Uska
04-19-2013, 03:34 AM
You mean CU.

I would say its much closer to the CU than it is to NGE but they still have time :D

Uska
04-19-2013, 03:37 AM
A kind of philosophical question here with it. If you completely break a build is it the same as removing a class?

Not really the cu did kind of break some builds in SWG you could still do them but they werent as effective NGE just elminated them ddo isnt doing that.

The CU was bad in SWG I adapted and continued playing until NGE killed the game for me.


This is like the CU maybe a little worse but it is alpha so it could get better or worse but it is nothing like NGE

Uska
04-19-2013, 03:38 AM
I used to play SWG as well. I quit indirectly because of the NGE and CU. We just lost so many in my first guild and then my second that I finally gave up.

I still miss SWG, best crafting system in a MMO that I've played in, bar none.

Try the emulator its not bad and when they get it finished we will have precu swg


Not only did swg have the best crafting it had the best housing system ever.

sephiroth1084
04-19-2013, 03:43 AM
I'm not sure if you meant it to sound this way or not, but...the above reads like you were basically willing to throw clerics under the bus as long as the other casting classes were safe. And, that any cleric player that doesn't want to be limited to a healbot in heroic levels is immaturely storming off if they stop playing their cleric or TR to a new class.

If you didn't mean it that way, you might want to consider previewing what you write before you hit submit.

If it is what you meant, well then that's just cold.

In order to effect ANY change at all, forum members have to stick together as something resembling a cohesive group. Forumites are already something like only 5% of the player base, and even among forum members a sizeable chunk never wander over to the Lamannia boards. If we're lucky, something like 2-3% of the players are commenting on these changes. ANY player-driven change at all will only occur if there's some sort of clear consensus. Not every change that has the group behind it will happen, but any changes that do occur will be because of the major minority backing them. It undermines the group unity when people explicitly state they're willing to sacrifice others for the benefit of their smaller pet group.
I read it as his viewing the cleric as a mistake, and figuring that if the other casters were done better, then the cleric could be fixed to follow suit, but that he was mistaken, because all of the casters got the Indiana Jones 4 treatment:http://www.dedroidify.com/blogimages/sp03.JPG

sephiroth1084
04-19-2013, 03:54 AM
I have to say, I stopped playing DDO in September, for a variety of reasons, one of which was that the end game was feeling like a chore: super-zerging easy quests for a lot of XP just to grind through destinies I didn't want in order to get the twists of fate that I did want, or slamming my head against the piece of **** that is Caught In The Web in order to get the 2 or 3 items I actually wanted out of there. At the time, I figured I'd take a break for a few months and come back to the game, as I have a couple of times in the past, but now it's been about 8 months, and I'm feeling less inclined to return than I did when the Enhancement Pass was on the back burner with vague suggestions and comments from the devs about what the future might hold.

Honestly, while I could certainly envision Turbine ****ing some things up, I really didn't imagine that it would look as bad as it does at the moment for basically everyone besides rangers and rogues. A part of me had expected to get excited about the enhancement pass and return to the game upon its launch. I miss playing a little, and really miss a lot of the folks I've played with, but I don't see this enhancement pass having the effect I expected. Quite the opposite, really.

Reading about the state of affairs in eGH isn't helping matters either, and that after looking forward to eGH, and especially the dracolich, for years. Add the increasingly underhanded money-grabs, and I really don't know if I'll ever come back to DDO. It should say something about how much I like(d) this game that I'm on the forums fighting to push it in a better direction, despite not having logged-in in 2/3rds of a year. And it's not pushing me away now...it's strapping me to the hood of a car and flooring it outta Dodge.

Sad.

emtp
04-19-2013, 11:29 AM
I Have now 4 toons in epic lvls MY first toon toke me a year to hit 20. I dont get to play as much as I would like and most days dont have time to run raids. I soloed most of the wy to lvl 20 with my cleric/monk/rouge build. Then undate 14 came and he was selved exept for when i was running with guildies a he became a heal bot. I was not going to tr as it took me so long to lvl a first life. My guildies have given me a coule pieces of grear from eDH and he is ok to fun again. On live i have 15 burst and the heal for close to 350 -450 depending on healing amp and if my devoition item is on. my heal are over 1000 This lets me mele for close to 50-150 per hit as a monk splash i have a good rate of attaacks and some double swings. Devine might hit near the 300 at full stack. Lama I am not getting anyway near those numbers and even when i drop the rouge and the skill point to open lock, search and disable i still am lack skill poonts because of the new skills i have to take and if some tell my to adate again go blow you steam at some one else. I took almost a year of new udate to fix this toon. My necro is so less fun. They took away the ablity to have multiple lines of spell power and crits. There is was too much in the game that has immiuties to be foucsed on one thing Live necro ray and polor ray hits in the 800-900 and crits close to 1300-1800. I cant get the same spell power even giving up on some skill like balnce and jump and move sinlty. also On live i have one form, why in the h3ll do have to take all 4 form when 3 of them are sh1t for my build. MORE CHOISES REALLY TURBINE THINKS THIS GIVES MORE CHOICES. My arty seem okay a little weaker in soom areas but stronger in others he is my last build i have been working on. And till recentlly I was not sure i really like him. But once lvl 18 hit and got some cool grear he really started to shine. I cant test him as the cool grear is not avalible to him on lama and he could copy over. I meen come on the most common xbows and rune arms arento in dojo. So i have my pally left and really havent even looked at this toon yet but why should i hope at this point. I am seeming a pigon holing of all toon not more chocies. I see less D&D that brought me to this game amd more of the other mmo that many of my friends play. I am a very causal player and have enjoyed this game for a couple ofyears as of now these changes will take some of the fun out of the game as such i will spend a lot less on it.

Isnt funny that they choose to take down the fourms at the same time as testing the enchments. I mean that really is lame timing. you have short windows of testing a bugged system and you are going to take aaway the way devs and players can have a two commuaction. Not that the devs are really adress many concrens and have inored the clerics completly s i guess it dosent really matter. and prove feed back is not really wanted.