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View Full Version : How (imo) the new system should have been



Jay203
04-18-2013, 03:44 PM
starting with this:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1017&d=1366316320

each of the 3 tree slot will be reserverved for a single class. as we can only have 3 different classes on a character at any one point, this works out perfectly
the selections at the bottom will allow you to choose among the PrEs available to the class
in the example, Class 1 Enhancement Tree is taken up by the Fighter class. The list from the dropdown will include Stalwart Defender, Kensei, and whatever the other one that's suppose to come out
this works the same way for the other 2 trees
so if i have a character with fighter/ranger/rogue, my Class 1 Enhancement Tree could be Fighter, Class 2 being Ranger, and Class 3 being Rogue tree

the enhancements in the tree section will require you to have spent certain amount of APs thus far, does not matter which tree you have spent the APs in
the enhancements in the CORE section (bottom) requires you to have invested a specific amount of APs into the tree associated with that core.
so if i want to take the 3rd Core enhancement from the Kensei PrE, i'll have to have spent 10 points in the Kensei tree as well as having 6 levels of fighters.

now, the thing is, when you have spent the points into one PrE, you are now able to spwap over to another PrE to spend APs into that tree

so if i have spent 23 points into Kensei like this:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1018&d=1366316320
notice how it shows 23 AP spent in two different places? once in tree (for the sake of Core enhancement requirement) and once at the bottom near the Reset all trees (for the sake of Tree enhancement requirements)

now i can swap the PrE from the Fighter window over to Stalwart Defender, like so:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1019&d=1366316330
note that the AP spent in the Stalwart tree says "0 AP Spent", while the "AP spent total" at the bottom remains at 23. This means that what you spent in the other tree still still valid, all you did when you swap over to the stalwart tree was changing the list you're looking at.

What this does is basically making the Tree Enhancements more like the "general" class enhancements that we have right now. if you have the class requirement as well as the AP spent requirements, you can take them.

and since there are concerns about multiclassers cherrypicking all the extremely powerful enhancements with some 6/6/8 split. What if i say that some of the enhancements from the tree will require specific CORE enhancements?
AA Arrow of Slaying will require you to have the lvl 18 Shadow Arrows
Battle Mechanic's Weapon Attachment will require you to have the lvl 18 Infuse Armor

this way of gating will still limit the crossers' access to the more powerful enhancements, while opening up their choices for the lesser enhancements without severing their flexibility from the class investments

also, this obviously means removing the ******** 3 PrE tree limit

Steven
04-18-2013, 03:51 PM
I have to say I like this better than the current system there advertising. It gives more of the current feel for multi-classing but keeps in play the tree effect there trying to go to. That and allowing the AP spent to be used across the racial/class tree would be welcome.

+1

rdasca
04-18-2013, 03:59 PM
It will never happen, it makes to much sense.

kingfisher
04-18-2013, 04:16 PM
+1 awesome layout. this would be sooooooooooooo much better than the drivel they are posting on lam. blows my mind how obtuse these bozo's are that they wont even consider what so many are asking for.

whereispowderedsilve
04-18-2013, 06:06 PM
Devs? Chime in on this please? Anybody? Wow that is awesome Jay! +100000!

Great work! Come people get behind this idea! :P! :)! Cheers!

SilkofDrasnia
04-18-2013, 06:18 PM
Nice this is what we should have, I hope the devs (and their bosses) have the decency to look at this and at least consider it.

Jay203
04-18-2013, 06:36 PM
lol, from the reactions thus far i take it it was clear and not confusing??

SilkofDrasnia
04-18-2013, 06:40 PM
lol, from the reactions thus far i take it it was clear and not confusing??

Was pretty clear to me.

Jay203
04-18-2013, 06:45 PM
btw, this is only my view on how the system should have worked

it has nothing to do with what enhancements are available at each tier and at what cost

that's a separate thing altogether

Synthetic
04-18-2013, 06:45 PM
Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....

You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.

Limitations help drive creativity. Your proposed system seems to push cookie cutter multi-class power builds.

Come back with a better idea on how you're gating and limiting the page flipping.

Cheers

Cernunan
04-18-2013, 07:06 PM
THIS is exactly what the system should be, and after a year of work and feedback, honestly this is exactly what I was expecting it to be.

Strange the detractor says its too complicated (?), but that is the thing about DDO's current system compared to other games, you can either take advantage of the rich, subtle nuances which go into character creation, or you can build to totally ignore them.

Jay's system would allow for this to continue, you can use the depth or completely ignore and go cookie cutter.
The current Lam build only allows for cookie cutter limited builds. That is something I am finding very disheartening about the future of the game.

Jay203
04-18-2013, 07:12 PM
Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....[quote]
the biggest flaw of the UI for the current enhancement system in live is how much of a pain it is to go through things.
the new UI separated them all into their own "trees", so it's only a matter of going to the correct tree to pick up the enhancement you want.

at least the "BOOK" is a lot more organized and easier to access

[quote]
You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.
the only necessary gating should have been character level, prerequisites, and amount of AP spent. any further gating is only benefiting the pure class while punishing the multiclassers. and i never went in depth into what requirements there should be for the enhancements. all i've done so far is lifting the ridiculous mechanic of 3 tree limit as well as the unnecessarily limiting access.



Limitations help drive creativity. Your proposed system seems to push cookie cutter multi-class power builds.

limitation only helps drive creativity when it's at an appropriate limit. and my proposed system does not, in any way, push for cookie cutter builds more than the current system. afterall, cookie cutter builds will ALWAYS exist regardless of what system you implement. however, what system you implement could make or break the game's character build system.



Come back with a better idea on how you're gating and limiting the page flipping.

Cheers

there's already enough 'gating' and limitations in place for the system
if you do not like the page flipping, you can always use the proposed system like it's currently implemented. stick with your three trees, other builders like myself would like a broader access for our character builds so we can be more creative.

if you make the system any more limiting than this, you have to make the enhancements themselves to have no limit in order to avoid being too limiting. so, no.

SilkofDrasnia
04-18-2013, 07:15 PM
THIS is exactly what the system should be, and after a year of work and feedback, honestly this is exactly what I was expecting it to be.

Strange the detractor says its too complicated (?), but that is the thing about DDO's current system compared to other games, you can either take advantage of the rich, subtle nuances which go into character creation, or you can build to totally ignore them.

Jay's system would allow for this to continue, you can use the depth or completely ignore and go cookie cutter.
The current Lam build only allows for cookie cutter limited builds. That is something I am finding very disheartening about the future of the game.

Aye agreed. After alpha and beta testing Neverwinter Online I was disheartened with the lack of customization and that pretty much insured I was going to stay with DDO (like usual as most other mmo's bore me after a very short while and I always come back to this one) If they go through with his I don't know if this would still be the case.

I always come back to DDO for one reason and they are trying to nerf that reason. So next small break I take why would I come back, might as well play Neverwinter.

Scraap
04-18-2013, 07:16 PM
I like it, though on the gating: I will again note that I find the benefits-for-points-spent-in-tree mechanic combined with chained pre-reqs sufficient motivation to stick to heavy investment in a few trees for most builds, so I don't particularly think they need to tack on extra hard limits there. (Though that would mean they'd have to add a few amps for the non-casters to encourage them to focus in a given tree, and make the trade-offs sting a bit.)

Davelfus
04-18-2013, 07:31 PM
yeah, 1 tree per class makes so much more sense... totally preffer your system over the current one... but going to add some thoughts...

honestly would rather have all enhancements for a class in one tree (played path of exile which have a way bigger "tree" and it was not hard to plan on it imo, can check a online version here (http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree))

then add on the right side a "prestige column" (imagine this part exactly like the stat enhancements on EDs) where we need to choose between one of the avaiable prestiges for that class, maybe even increase the number of tiers.


no need to create a bazillion enhancements just to fill trees, they are just repeating a lot of stuff (everybody and their mothers have a leap-like ability now).

Have anyone stop to wonder how much more work will they have to add a new class? hell after all this time artificers still only had one rank in their prestige... and all of a sudden, when they release a class it will have 2 or 3 finished trees? lol... they need to make a reality check right now

BFD20001
04-18-2013, 07:35 PM
Looks damn good. I would suggest adding a class/PrE Core ability for lvl15 as well as making ALL the Core abilities autogrants at the appropriate AP marks. Cheers!

Jay203
04-18-2013, 07:44 PM
yeah, 1 tree per class makes so much more sense... totally preffer your system over the current one... but going to add some thoughts...

honestly would rather have all enhancements for a class in one tree (played path of exile which have a way bigger "tree" and it was not hard to plan on it imo, can check a online version here (http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree))

then add on the right side a "prestige column" (imagine this part exactly like the stat enhancements on EDs) where we need to choose between one of the avaiable prestiges for that class, maybe even increase the number of tiers.


no need to create a bazillion enhancements just to fill trees, they are just repeating a lot of stuff (everybody and their mothers have a leap-like ability now).

Have anyone stop to wonder how much more work will they have to add a new class? hell after all this time artificers still only had one rank in their prestige... and all of a sudden, when they release a class it will have 2 or 3 finished trees? lol... they need to make a reality check right now

biggest problem with putting all the enhancements in a single 'tree' is how clogged up it'll get

not to mention should turbine decides to add additional PrEs or enhancements, it'll be a lot of rework to move everything around


Looks damn good. I would suggest adding a class/PrE Core ability for lvl15 as well as making ALL the Core abilities autogrants at the appropriate AP marks. Cheers!

the way i see it, actually taking the Core enhancements is like taking the PrE on live right now
filling up the tree to fulfill the AP spent in tree requirements for the Core enhancements is like taking the pre-req enhancements for the PrE

Jay203
04-18-2013, 07:50 PM
I read your whole proposal I simply disagree that there are any limitations on cherry picking abilities. I.e. a maxed build melee will be way more powerful then what's achievable in what the devs proposed as will a maxed build archer/caster etc. You didn't give me an actual response that flushed out somethings to help balance so I can't take you seriously.

Cheers

why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

Ziindarax
04-18-2013, 07:54 PM
starting with this:
http://forums.ddo.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1017&stc=1&d=1366316327

each of the 3 tree slot will be reserverved for a single class. as we can only have 3 different classes on a character at any one point, this works out perfectly
the selections at the bottom will allow you to choose among the PrEs available to the class
in the example, Class 1 Enhancement Tree is taken up by the Fighter class. The list from the dropdown will include Stalwart Defender, Kensei, and whatever the other one that's suppose to come out
this works the same way for the other 2 trees
so if i have a character with fighter/ranger/rogue, my Class 1 Enhancement Tree could be Fighter, Class 2 being Ranger, and Class 3 being Rogue tree

the enhancements in the tree section will require you to have spent certain amount of APs thus far, does not matter which tree you have spent the APs in
the enhancements in the CORE section (bottom) requires you to have invested a specific amount of APs into the tree associated with that core.
so if i want to take the 3rd Core enhancement from the Kensei PrE, i'll have to have spent 10 points in the Kensei tree as well as having 6 levels of fighters.

now, the thing is, when you have spent the points into one PrE, you are now able to spwap over to another PrE to spend APs into that tree

so if i have spent 23 points into Kensei like this:
http://forums.ddo.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1018&stc=1&d=1366316905
notice how it shows 23 AP spent in two different places? once in tree (for the sake of Core enhancement requirement) and once at the bottom near the Reset all trees (for the sake of Tree enhancement requirements)

now i can swap the PrE from the Fighter window over to Stalwart Defender, like so:
http://forums.ddo.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1019&stc=1&d=1366317077
note that the AP spent in the Stalwart tree says "0 AP Spent", while the "AP spent total" at the bottom remains at 23. This means that what you spent in the other tree still still valid, all you did when you swap over to the stalwart tree was changing the list you're looking at.

What this does is basically making the Tree Enhancements more like the "general" class enhancements that we have right now. if you have the class requirement as well as the AP spent requirements, you can take them.

and since there are concerns about multiclassers cherrypicking all the extremely powerful enhancements with some 6/6/8 split. What if i say that some of the enhancements from the tree will require specific CORE enhancements?
AA Arrow of Slaying will require you to have the lvl 18 Shadow Arrows
Battle Mechanic's Weapon Attachment will require you to have the lvl 18 Infuse Armor

this way of gating will still limit the crossers' access to the more powerful enhancements, while opening up their choices for the lesser enhancements without severing their flexibility from the class investments

also, this obviously means removing the ******** 3 PrE tree limit


This, a thousand times this!! Granted, the enhancements in and of themselves still need improvement, this would be a more preferred system than what is currently on Alpha.

Furthermore, I am of the mind that the fifth rank that levels you up should be also grant an additional action point; so you'd be getting 5 AP's per level instead of 4, and it works out better for the akward "5-10-15-20-25-30" increments they're trying to use now. Basically, 20 more action points.

Synthetic
04-18-2013, 08:01 PM
why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

The current ranger builds allow TWF to get +4 damage on TWFing they can also get FE damage you now have a ranger with +11 damage vs specific creatures you then add in Kensei enhancements do you see where I'm going?

Cheers

Sorry about the multiple responses I hit a key and didn't realize I had posted I thought I had lost it.

Ziindarax
04-18-2013, 08:01 PM
why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

While you're at it, if it's a caster class, take notes and compare and contrast the spell power of your build (or a similar one) on live, and the spell power of your build on Lamannia with the current iteration of the Alpha Pass. Furthermore, I challenge you to take notes of the average raw damage of your spells on live, and on Lamannia currently.

Edit: I am not interested in seeing the melee stuff; Melee's are the ones who benefit the most from this pass. Looking at all the juicy buffs one can get, I have determined that it is possible for a pure monk to get at least 10d6 in raw damage dice BEFORE strength modifier, power attack, damage-augmenting gear, etc (note, this assumes that a warforged monk could use weapon attachment on handwraps). With all the buffs, that number could actually be higher. How high? So high that you're doing hundreds of points of damage per punch (with the right buffs), and that's not considering the 50% boost from helplessness (and the 30% boost from Sense weakness being twisted in), nor seekers, and the criticals. So how am I getting this? Here's the math - 3.5(d6) from remaining a pure monk, .5W from Weapon Attachment (I am assuming it works with wraps), Epic Elite Adamantine Knuckles have a secret effect of 3.5W (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Knuckles_(Level_25)), and dance of flowers maxed out from Grandmaster's tree gives an additional 1.5w. So far, that's 3.5 +.5, which = 4. 4 +3.5W from EE Knuckles makes that 7.5W. Dance of Flowers adds another 1.5W, which makes the total so far 9W. If you're in fire stance, and have the fire enhancement from the GM tree, you're adding another .75W to make that total 9.75W. Add in Deadly Weapons, and you get 10.75W. If the Reinforced Fists property from various items stacks with all this, you're looking at 11.75W. Blessings of Onatar adds .25, which tops it out at a whopping 12W. Also, I forgot to add Improved Power attack, which adds another .5W, making it 12.5W. This is all before Damage boosts, Yugo pots, Primal Scream, Strength Modifiers, or Power attack.

Earlier today, I played with a 12 rogue, something drunk (druid + monk levels), and he was able to get the damage die of his Sireth up to a total 6d10, and was striking at a frightening speed (four hits, and the giants in Epic Gianthold wilderness were dead). Before Damage boosts, Strength modifiers, Power attack, etc, he is already doing 6-60 points of damage per hit. Deadly Weapons/Shillelegh cranks that number up to 7d10, and Weapon Attachment (if you're Warforged) makes it 7.5d10. Oh, and that's not considering what could be cranked up further if the monk trees happen to include anything which enhances the strength of quarterstaves or other monk weapons.

Jay203
04-18-2013, 08:27 PM
The current ranger builds allow TWF to get +4 damage on TWFing they can also get FE damage you now have a ranger with +11 damage vs specific creatures you then add in Kensei enhancements do you see where I'm going?

Cheers

Sorry about the multiple responses I hit a key and didn't realize I had posted I thought I had lost it.
no, i don't see where you're going with that

using the current enhancement list we have available right now
in order to get the +4 damage to twf, you'll be spending 8 AP on that
another 8 AP if you want to get up to +4 more damage from Kensei
if you want the +3 FE bonus damage on the deepwood line, you'll need to spend at least 12 APs
that's 28 APs for the damage bonuses you claim so far which is more than 1/4 of what's available, that's not including the other enhancements and other requirements you have to satisfy before you can take those enhancements
saying there are no limit what-so-ever is just plain silly, the most basic of all limitation we have is the availability of APs
then it's the soft class level requirements of 1 lvl of the class per tier in tree
then there's the hard class limit for the core enhancements
after that i even proposed having some of the enhancements requiring one to have specific core enhancements, which requires x-amount of APs spent in that specific tree along with specific amount of class levels

but no, you didn't get all that, all you saw was "omg, they're able to cherry pick only the useful enhancements! there're no limits!!! OMGOMG!"

/facepalm

on a side note, i can't believe you're worried about rangers doing more damage to Favored enemies... like they're suppose to... ha~

Jay203
04-18-2013, 08:30 PM
While you're at it, if it's a caster class, take notes and compare and contrast the spell power of your build (or a similar one) on live, and the spell power of your build on Lamannia with the current iteration of the Alpha Pass. Furthermore, I challenge you to take notes of the average raw damage of your spells on live, and on Lamannia currently.

Edit: I am not interested in seeing the melee stuff; Melee's are the ones who benefit the most from this pass. Looking at all the juicy buffs one can get, I have determined that it is possible for a pure monk to get at least 10d6 in raw damage dice BEFORE strength modifier, power attack, damage-augmenting gear, etc (note, this assumes that a warforged monk could use weapon attachment on handwraps). With all the buffs, that number could actually be higher. How high? So high that you're doing hundreds of points of damage per punch, and that's not considering the 50% boost from helplessness (and the 30% boost from Sense weakness being twisted in), nor seekers, and the criticals. So how am I getting this? Here's the math - 3.5(d6) from remaining a pure monk, .5W from Weapon Attachment (I am assuming it works with wraps), Epic Elite Adamantine Knuckles have a secret effect of 3.5W (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamantine_Knuckles_(Level_25)), and dance of flowers maxed out from Grandmaster's tree gives an additional 1.5w. So far, that's 3.5 +.5, which = 4. 4 +3.5W from EE Knuckles makes that 7.5W. Dance of Flowers adds another 1.5W, which makes the total so far 9W. If you're in fire stance, and have the fire enhancement from the GM tree, you're adding another .75W to make that total 9.75W. Add in Deadly Weapons, and you get 10.75W. If the Reinforced Fists property from various items stacks with all this, you're looking at 11.75W. Blessings of Onatar adds .25, which tops it out at a whopping 12W. Also, I forgot to add Improved Power attack, which adds another .5W, making it 12.5W. This is all before Damage boosts, Yugo pots, Primal Scream, Strength Modifiers, or Power attack.

Earlier today, I played with a 12 rogue, something drunk (druid + monk levels), and he was able to get the damage die of his Sireth up to a total 6d10, and was striking at a frightening speed (four hits, and the giants in Epic Gianthold wilderness were dead). Before Damage boosts, Strength modifiers, Power attack, etc, he is already doing 6-60 points of damage per hit. Deadly Weapons/Shillelegh cranks that number up to 7d10, and Weapon Attachment (if you're Warforged) makes it 7.5d10. Oh, and that's not considering what could be cranked up further if the monk trees happen to include anything which enhances the strength of quarterstaves or other monk weapons.

like i said, the effects of enhancements themselves are a separate discussion altogether

i remember seeing a dev saying similar enhancements from different tree would not stack back in the official enhancements thread. then again, what will be available to us as enhancements still needs to be looked at. the basic system of how the entire purchase system would work is what i'm more focused on in this thread.

as for pumping the damage up, that's really not the problem of the enhancement system
that's the problem with EDs and the equipments :p
wasn't hard to get decently high X[W]
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415030

Ziindarax
04-18-2013, 08:42 PM
like i said, the effects of enhancements themselves are a separate discussion altogether

i remember seeing a dev saying similar enhancements from different tree would not stack back in the official enhancements thread. then again, what will be available to us as enhancements still needs to be looked at. the basic system of how the entire purchase system would work is what i'm more focused on in this thread.

as for pumping the damage up, that's really not the problem of the enhancement system
that's the problem with EDs and the equipments :p
wasn't hard to get decently high X[W]
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415030

Math-fail on my part - reinforced fists grants .5w, not 1w! x.X

kingfisher
04-18-2013, 09:22 PM
Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....

hi, this is a dnd game, built on the dnd pen and paper game. we use pens and paper. you know, to write stuff down. makes everything easier. srsly.


You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.

no. they buried good enh in ill-fitting trees so you have to take stuff you dont like to get to the good ones. thats rigid, not flexible. what flexibility are you speaking of?

and your ranger with the shiny new haste boost, now cant get any sprint boost. at all. a CORE ranger enh, and one of the most handy things to have.

and as far as it not hurting mc's, well you can add right? 3 limitations (live) vs 6 limitations (alpha) is obviously more restrictive, if you can add. then you figure in that a MC on live can take any low level enh they qualify for where an MC on alpha has to pick 3 enh trees just like they were a pure class. these are major nerfs to MC'ing. whatever new and shiny enh are on alpha dont matter when you consider the additional restriction that their idiotic new system drags in with it.

its mostly common sense. a little math.

Elaril
04-19-2013, 01:21 AM
I like this a lot. It is much more palatable than the lama alpha.

Jay203
06-24-2013, 08:40 PM
soooo, it's been a while since i kept up with the enhancement pass progress
any changes noteworthy??

Jay203
07-02-2013, 12:55 AM
ok, just checked out the most recent changes
making it so we can get up to 6 class trees is a start i suppose

still would prefer to have what i proposed though, please make multi-classing as fun to play post-pass as pre-pass!