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View Full Version : The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!



SqueakofDoom
04-18-2013, 09:50 AM
Rogue Enhancements are currently available on Lamannia.

Please share your thoughts on the Rogue Enhancement Trees!

SableShadow
04-18-2013, 09:53 AM
<3

I'm sure I'll have a rant later tonight, but let's just enjoy the moment. :D

<3

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 09:55 AM
We are previewing Rogue Enhancements this week.

Please share your thoughts on the Rogue Enhancement Trees!

Please fill out the Rogue Survey (https://d12.parature.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?type=web&deptID=24037&surveyID=99)!

Oh man... I can't wait. I'm literally jittery with anticipation... and checking the Lam client every 5 minutes.

Mercureal
04-18-2013, 10:14 AM
Excellent!

If Brick's patch works for me, I can log in after work today and check out all of the new rogue-y goodness/awfulness on my main toon and then come here to cheer/rage about it.

Lithic
04-18-2013, 10:20 AM
<3

I'm sure I'll have a rant later tonight, but let's just enjoy the moment. :D

<3

Hear hear!

Now someone post the rogue enhancements please :)

destiny4405
04-18-2013, 10:32 AM
not gonna be able to test, so if assassin tree only has damage and not haste boost, someone scream at devs pls, ty.

kingfisher
04-18-2013, 10:37 AM
not gonna be able to test, so if assassin tree only has damage and not haste boost, someone scream at devs pls, ty.

no it will have both, you will probably just have to pick only one. but hey this is the NEW AND IMPROVEDEDDED enhancements, they ahve to be better! right?

Maxluck
04-18-2013, 10:44 AM
Could some kind soul please post up the new enhancements for thous of us without Lamannia.

Truga
04-18-2013, 10:45 AM
You don't want both anyway, you want rogue haste boost and human damage boost, so you can have both on. :V

destiny4405
04-18-2013, 10:51 AM
You don't want both anyway, you want rogue haste boost and human damage boost, so you can have both on. :V

yes, unless haste boost is all the way in the acrobat tree :)

karl_k0ch
04-18-2013, 11:31 AM
yes, unless haste boost is all the way in the acrobat tree :)

In the pre-alpha leak, Haste Boost was located in the Acrobat Tree, as a Tier 2 ability. This is consistent with other Haste Boosts, such as the one from Tempest. If this is still the same, I don't consider it to be a bad decision: Putting all the abilites which enhance damage in the assassin tree would make choices uninteresting.

JOTMON
04-18-2013, 12:10 PM
In the pre-alpha leak, Haste Boost was located in the Acrobat Tree, as a Tier 2 ability. This is consistent with other Haste Boosts, such as the one from Tempest. If this is still the same, I don't consider it to be a bad decision: Putting all the abilites which enhance damage in the assassin tree would make choices uninteresting.

I think it is a bad implementation. even for Rangers.

Haste Boost was a core class ability not a prestige.
And moved from a level 1 ability to a tier 2 ability so 5 AP to even unlock it...
OTher core abilities scattered throughout various prestige tree's.
Racial Tree requiring its own AP investment.
Multiclass Tree's require Significant AP investment.

This whole multiple tree thing reeks of disaster.

Current toons cant have what they have now based on my trials on Lama.

Nibor
04-18-2013, 12:29 PM
Assassin tree:

Core:
Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You may use Dex modifier to-hit with Daggers and Kukris
Dagger in the Back: (2AP) You may use Dex for damage with daggers and kukris. If you have weapon finesse, this applies to melee weapons with which you can use your dex modifier to hit.
Assassin's trick: (2AP) Activate: Target intelligent opponent loses 25% fort and immunity to sneak attacks for 12 seconds - Will save DC 10+rogue level+Int modifier to avoid, Cooldown 15 sec
Nimbleness: (2AP) On sneak attack: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times.
Lethality: (2AP) Sneak attack that is vorpal will kill most living targets.
Deadly Shadow (2AP): +2 INT, +4d6 to sneak attack

Tier1:

Poison Strikes (2AP, multi):
Heartseeker: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fort save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Con damage, On vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier) cooldown 6s
Ice chill: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Dex damage, On vorpal: Paralysis (Fort save to negate DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier, 25% chance for additional save when creature is damaged)
Soulshatter: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 Will save (stacks 5 times), on Crit: 1d6 Wis damage, on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 SR for 10 seconds; Will save to negate, DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier)

Toxin Affinity (1AP): +1/+2/+3 Fort save vs poison, +1/+2/+3 to the DC of your poison attacks - wording here is not very clear but that seems to be both.

Shiv (1AP): Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100/200/300. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains -2 fort save vs poison for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times) cooldown 12 seconds

Sneak Attack Training (2ap): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack

Stealthy (1ap): +1/+2/+3 Hide and Move Silent

Tier2:

Poison Strikes (2AP, multi): - pick one from the T1 list you don't already have

Venomed Blades (2AP) - Poison Stance: On hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 poison damage with weapon attacks

Bleed Them Out (1AP) - Melee Attack: Deal +1/+2/+3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed can stack up to 5 times. Cooldown 6 seconds

Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T1 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack

Damage Boost (2ap): +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds

Tier3:

Poison Strikes (2AP, multi): - pick one from the T1 list you don't already have

Critical Accuracy (1ap): +1/+2/+3 to confirm Critical hits

Shadow Dagger (1ap): Throw dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4/6/8d8 unholy damage and blinds, Fort save DC ?/14/18 + 1/2 rogue level + Int modifier to negate blindness.

Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T2 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack

Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int

Tier 4:

Execute (2ap, requires Critical Damage 1): Melee Assassinate attack: +3[w] damage. On sneak attack: if target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. Cooldown 30s

Critical Damage (1ap, requries Critical Accuracy): +1/+2/+3 critical hit damage

Killer (1ap, requires Critical Damage 1): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Melee Doublestrike and Extra Shot Chance for 15 seconds. Can stack up to 2/3/4 times. Weaker enemies don't always give boost, repeating crossbows have lower extra shot chance.

Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T3 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack

Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int

Tier 5:

Assassinate (1ap): as on live

Measure the Foe (1ap): Gain +1 to hit and to the DCs of your assassinate abilities every 6/4/2 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

Knife Specialization (2ap): Gain +1 competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

I'll try to get to other trees later; and add some thoughts as well.

Aashrym
04-18-2013, 12:45 PM
In the pre-alpha leak, Haste Boost was located in the Acrobat Tree, as a Tier 2 ability. This is consistent with other Haste Boosts, such as the one from Tempest. If this is still the same, I don't consider it to be a bad decision: Putting all the abilites which enhance damage in the assassin tree would make choices uninteresting.

It's still tier 2 acrobat. Wand and scroll mastery is tier 3 mechanic.

My guess is most rogues are going to be using all 3 trees or giving up one of those 2 enhancements. Or grabbing a multiclass to add them in from another class's tree.

Assassins still look like the popular choice tree.

Pick your iconic rogue weapon. Dagger, crossbow, or staff?

These trees are pretty close to what appeared on Lamma few months ago, with a few changes. Kill switch didn't appear with mechanic, for example.

Lithic
04-18-2013, 12:48 PM
*looks at assasin tree*

Maybe turbine doesn't hate rogues anymore?

*waits for giant other shoe to drop*

ddobard1
04-18-2013, 12:55 PM
....Pick your iconic rogue weapon. Dagger, crossbow, or staff?....

sounds like pnp :)

just hope they are balanced :o

Truga
04-18-2013, 12:56 PM
http://udba.org/ddo/ScreenShot00158.jpg

Best I could manage for now. Works very nicely, but scroll mastery is currently broken, I only heal for 157. :< Will test more next week, don't have time right now.

Cernunan
04-18-2013, 12:59 PM
I think it is a bad implementation. even for Rangers.

Haste Boost was a core class ability not a prestige.

I would not be quite so annoyed with it being a tier 2, since I mostly splash 2 levels of Ro anyway when I do splash, my bigger issue would be that acrobat 's tier one abilities are almost all quarterstaff focused. That is the biggest issue I am having, I need to waste points in things I would not, and previously would never have, in order to get what I want.

kingfisher
04-18-2013, 01:01 PM
Pick your iconic rogue weapon. Dagger, crossbow, or staff?


lol can you say pigeon-holed? this game is turning into 'magic-user needs a heal' faster than ash would defend turbine for this epic colossal failure they are pushing out.

HalfORCastrator
04-18-2013, 01:02 PM
Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?

Truga
04-18-2013, 01:06 PM
Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?

Not really. We lost 12 damage but got 4d6, which is 14 damage, so we gained two.

Cernunan
04-18-2013, 01:14 PM
sounds like pnp :)


Gee, not the 3.5 pnp I have played for decades, or anybody I have ever played with at any of the conventions.. We have moved away form such limits an awfully long time ago.

Truga
04-18-2013, 01:18 PM
lol can you say pigeon-holed? this game is turning into 'magic-user needs a heal' faster than ash would defend turbine for this epic colossal failure they are pushing out.

Not really. My rogue now uses a shortsword, a kukri and a dagger depending on situation (celestia, EMG, agony) and all use dex for to hit and damage. I'm also proficient with needle for ranged damage and have 55 assassinate DC with just 34 INT. What's not to like?

ahpook
04-18-2013, 01:18 PM
I think it is a bad implementation. even for Rangers.

Haste Boost was a core class ability not a prestige.
And moved from a level 1 ability to a tier 2 ability so 5 AP to even unlock it...


Since there are no core class enhancements anymore, it had to go somewhere. My experience on Lama just now was that unlocking and acquiring the ability from the acrobat tree was not an issue. I had to take something I wasn't thrilled with for my last point of unlocking but I had so many APs it wasn't a big deal.

Overall, it worked for me. I like the tree model and the power ramp up for rogues compared to what is currently live is very nice.

Taojeff
04-18-2013, 01:22 PM
Quick impression of acrobat tree after testing 18/1/1 rogue/fvs/druid (did that to look at other trees).

Acrobat is a ton of fun. The clickies are very useful, not sure why other trees could not be like this, the damage is good and the cool downs are low enough. I especially liked the one that does 3[w] and 25% doublestrike for 10secs. The cool down is only 12s. I will be using that one as an opener quite a bit.

Vault is kind of silly, really just abundant step. I would be better with an animation like vaulting.

The granted abilities are all nice. This thing is going to be a beast in dreadnaught too with double trip (and it has + to trip in the tree).

I did not find any real bloat in this tree at all. Ended up spending 46 points in it without feeling like I was wasting any. I will have to see how this and henshin mystic go together. Not sure what would be my tier 3 between the two. I am thinking henshin mystic but no sure.

Overall impressed (with assassin tree also).

UurlockYgmeov
04-18-2013, 01:30 PM
rogue mechanic now much more desirable!

Love time bomb (at least in theory)

and it seems that the hard cap of ranged attack speed of 32% is now lifted - just saw my RogWizArt with haste and haste boost do 57%

Mercureal
04-18-2013, 01:34 PM
Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?

Sort of - I haven't been online yet, but it looks like only the Assassin Tree has extra SA damage, and it now gets +4d6 rather than +3d6. The extra 12 damage from SA Training that any Rogue could take is gone.

So, Assassin rogues lose an average of around 9 (rounded up) from their max bonus (from 3d6+12 to 4d6, or ~23 to 14). I'm not sure how viable taking the Assassin abilities is for rogues focusing in the other prestiges, but if it is, they potentially gain around 2 to their max possible SA bonus.

Jay203
04-18-2013, 01:44 PM
get rid of the crappy ass Tanglefoot from rogue mechanic
shift the Improved Detection down to lvl 3 tier, and Targeting sights down to lvl 6 tier
and Expert Trapper down to lvl 12 tier
then for lvl 18 tier, add 50% chance to shoot extra projectile with crossbows (reduced effect for repeaters)


also, disconnect wand DC, wand mastery, and UMD

nibel
04-18-2013, 01:45 PM
Mechanic Tree

http://i45.tinypic.com/34rvjwi.jpg

Core abilities:

(1) Arbalester: Raise ranged sneak attack/PBS range by 5 meters, and give proficiency with great xbows
(3) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area taack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.
(6) Improved Detection (2 AP): You can detect and search traps from 50% further. Gives proficiency with light repeaters
(12) Targeting Sights (2 AP): Uses Int for ranged/throw damage and proficiency with heavy repeaters.
(18) Expert Trapper (2 AP): Reduces the cooldown of all alchemical traps by 20%, and 3/rest if you critical fail while disarming, the box don't blow up on your face.
(20) Master Alchemist (2 AP): Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

Tier 1:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Faster Disabling (1 AP): You search, disable and OL animations are 33/66/100% faster (yes, third tier is instant)
Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)
Mechanics (1 AP): +1/2/3 to disable, OL, Repair, and saves against traps.
Awareness (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Listen, Search and Spot

Tier 2:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training I. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.
Wand Heightening (1 AP): +1/2/3 to wand DC
Skill Boost (1 AP): +2/4/6 to skills for 20 secs.

Tier 3:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Cossbow Training II+1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Wracking Shot/Strike (1 AP): Ranged/Melee attack. On hit, deal 1d6/3d6/5d6 damage to construct hit, reduces 10% fortification (stacks 5 times), and make them lose sneak attack immunity.
Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Wand and Scroll Mastery (1 AP): Requires Wand Heightening at same level. +25%/50%/75% of scroll/wand effectiveness.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 4:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training III. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Disable Construct (1 AP): Requires Wracking Shot/Strike at same rank. Target is dazed for 10/20/30 seconds. Daze is removed on damage. Using it on a target already affected by it will extend the duration. Cooldown: 25 secs.
Use Magical Device (1 AP): Requires Wand and Scroll Mastery of same rank. +1/2/3 UMD.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 5:

Leg Shot (2 AP): Ranged Attack. On damage, enemy movement is reduced 50% for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.

Elaril
04-18-2013, 01:49 PM
I trust this means that at least a couple of new named Kukri's are coming in the expansion.

karl_k0ch
04-18-2013, 01:50 PM
It's still tier 2 acrobat. Wand and scroll mastery is tier 3 mechanic.

At least for my pure halfling, this is not a restriction - there are no other trees available. For other race/class combinations, there are more options, i.e. choices.

Interestingly enough, while the three tree limit creates restrictions, it makes the decisions more archetypical, i.e. you have to decide between Versatility from Mechanic vs. more damage from, say, Kensai.

I'm probably repeating myself: Putting tasty enhancements (eg haste boost, W&S Mastery) into not-so-popular trees makes the said trees more of a consideration. This is a good thing because choice is good, and while from a power gamer POV, I'd like to have access to all the powerful rogue enhancements at once and the kensei tree, I think that creating this kind of dichotomy is healthy for a diversity of efficient character builds.

ddobard1
04-18-2013, 01:57 PM
its nice that rogue could use dex instead of str to hit and damage IMHO

Nibor
04-18-2013, 02:05 PM
So first I tried to recreate my Halfling dex-based assassin 20 rogue on the new enhancements as closely as possible.
Aside from the missing sneak attack damage - normally assassin PrE grants +3d6 and the Sneak Attack Training grants +12, and is a prerequisite for the PrE (bug report filed) - I was able to fully replicate my enhancements, and actually improve on them some. It required spreading points out into all 3 trees, but there were enough points to go around. I got a 3rd Dex point from the Mechanic tree, and if I was willing to take 20% less hate diversion or 10% less on my haste boost I could even take a 4th Dex point.

Of course, I probably wouldn't build it that way now; I'd want more of the top end enhancements to dagger/kukri crits and would have to cut back somewhere. Next step is to plan out a new build. I'm already a little sad that Rebellion is a short sword and won't play nice with all the extra goodies you get from assassin tree, and once things are finalized I'll probably have to run the numbers to compare Rebellion and Agony.

The bad news is that splashing Rogue may become more troublesome. I haven't played around much with Rogue splashes but they're very popular. Haste boost and Wand Mastery both take a tree and so taking both in a shallow splash is likely prohibitive, and Wand Mastery takes a heavier splash. It feels partly like Wand Mastery is up higher because once you can take one level of it, you can take all three right away - on Live the different tiers of Wand Mastery are gated by level, for example, and you can't get 75% until lvl 11, but you can get the first 30% at lvl 2.

I do feel like they filled out Mechanic well with a lot of desirable features that may actually pull people in.

I don't see Cheat Death as a capstone anywhere but I'm not sure it was all that desirable anyways. I would certainly never have taken it in spite of how much I wanted the Dex, so I'm not bug reporting it. If someone misses it, though, bug it.

HalfORCastrator
04-18-2013, 02:05 PM
Sort of - I haven't been online yet, but it looks like only the Assassin Tree has extra SA damage, and it now gets +4d6 rather than +3d6. The extra 12 damage from SA Training that any Rogue could take is gone.

So, Assassin rogues lose an average of around 9 (rounded up) from their max bonus (from 3d6+12 to 4d6, or ~23 to 14). I'm not sure how viable taking the Assassin abilities is for rogues focusing in the other prestiges, but if it is, they potentially gain around 2 to their max possible SA bonus.
Yeah, just noticed it was 4d6 throughout tiers instead of 3d6, so 8.5 sa dmg loss for assassins.

Also, the biggest thing is losing haste boost. (or was it put into another tree? Either way, huge ap or dps loss)

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?



OMFG, just checked Mechanic tree! Instant disabling/searching!

nibel
04-18-2013, 02:09 PM
Acrobat Tree

http://i47.tinypic.com/358e06b.jpg

Core:

(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit with staffs.
(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Use dex to damage with staffs.
(6) Tumbler (2 AP): You can tumble through enemies.
(12) Kip Up (2 AP): Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces.
(18) Cartwheel Charge (2 AP): After tumbling you gain a +2 morale bonus to Str and Dex for 6 seconds.
(20) Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down.

Tier 1:

Staff Training (2 AP): +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Acrobatic (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Balance, Jump and Tumble. +5%/10%/15% staff attack speed.
Charming (1 AP): +1/2/3 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle and Intimidate
Sly Flourish (1 AP): Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Faster Sneaking (1 AP): +20%/35%/50% sneaking speed.

Tier 2:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training I. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Trip Focus (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Trip DC
Subtlety (1 AP): -20%/30%/40% threat generation (non-cumulative with other Subtlety enhancements)
Quick Strike (2 AP): Melee Quarterstaff Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% morale bonus to doublestrike for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 18/15/12 secs.
Haste Boost (2 AP): +10%/20%/30% attack speed for 20 seconds.

Tier 3:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training II. +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Improved Glancing Blows (1 AP): 2%/4%/6% more chances to proc secondary weapon effects on glancing blows.
Shadow Dodge (1 AP): Toggle: +1/2/3 Dodge and Dex, -10%/20%/30% Fortification.
Sweeping Strikes (2 AP): Requires Quick Strike at the same rank. Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them (Balance DC 10 + half rogue + Dex). Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Strength or Dexterity (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 4:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training III. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Improved Defensive Roll (1 AP): Requires Defensive Roll. Defensive Roll now triggers at 30%/40%/50% or below health, and reduces damage to 40%/30%/20% when successful.
No Mercy (1 AP): You deal 10%/20%/30% more damage to helpless opponents.
Staff Lunge (2 AP): Requires Sweeping Strikes at same rank. Melee Quarterstaff attack: +2/3/4[W] damage as you dive through enemies in a line. Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.

Tier 5:

Staff Specializtion (2 AP): +1 competence bonus to crit threat range and multiplier with staffs.
Vault (2 AP): Wings. Requires a staff equipped. Cooldown: 15 seconds

SableShadow
04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?

I have it on right next to Precision; haven't stepped into a quest yet, tho.

Nibor
04-18-2013, 02:12 PM
Yeah, just noticed it was 4d6 throughout tiers instead of 3d6, so 8.5 sa dmg loss for assassins.

Also, the biggest thing is losing haste boost. (or was it put into another tree? Either way, huge ap or dps loss)

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?



OMFG, just checked Mechanic tree! Instant disabling/searching!

No idea on how the stances stack. If it stacks with Precision/PA, then it's pretty good and I'll probably take it over damage boost. If it doesn't stack, it's pretty well trash.

Haste boost is in Acrobat tree. You need to spend 5 pts in tier 1 first to unlock it, then 6 points to get it maxed. Depending on where you were stopping on haste boost before, this is a poor/decent/good deal. Subtle Backstabbing - the anti-hate enhancements - are also over in acrobat at the same tier. If you want both, the 5 points to get to both is not as expensive, but I'm not sure how much non-rogues used subtle backstabbing.

GoldyGopher
04-18-2013, 02:13 PM
As a player with several multi-class characters, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.

It goes beyond disappointment, as it appears that Turbine went out of their way to ummm make multi-classing unworkable. And I am not just talking my two level splash builds, but my two builds with six levels of rouge, there is nothing for me to spend AP points on at the low levels.

FuzzyDuck81
04-18-2013, 02:14 PM
Loving the look of the acrobat tree, will be interesting to see how the monk trees synergise with it

nibel
04-18-2013, 02:14 PM
@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?

Can't say about PA (my rogue don't have it), but it worked at the same time with Precision.

rest
04-18-2013, 02:23 PM
rogue mechanic now much more desirable!

Love time bomb (at least in theory)

and it seems that the hard cap of ranged attack speed of 32% is now lifted - just saw my RogWizArt with haste and haste boost do 57%

there is no hard cap of 32% on ranged attack speed. my kensai AA on live routinely hits 50something.

Intrepid
04-18-2013, 02:28 PM
Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

Kmnh
04-18-2013, 02:32 PM
On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

The other trees have it even worse, since they can't take deadly shadow and have to spend a lot of points on the assassin tree to get sneak attack training. I'm sure mechanics and thief acrobats will love doing 8d6+12 damage less than what they can do now on the live servers.

karl_k0ch
04-18-2013, 02:38 PM
I trust this means that at least a couple of new named Kukri's are coming in the expansion.
Yes, this would be nice.

However, the first core ability (Kukri proficiency) solves a number of issues why kukris aren't a great choice on live for rogues. While Epic Midnight Greetings is a nice choice as a trash beating (and stabbing) weapon, it doesn't break DR, and is also not great if you can't assassinate (because most of the mobs are, eg, red-named). Since there is only one other weapon type with slashing on a rogue's weapon list, you have the following options if you want to use other weapons than EMG against bosses:

Take IC: Slashing and use Rapiers without IC:Pierce
Take IC:Slashing and Exotic Proficiency: Khopeshes (or both IC feats, if you really like Rapiers)
Take IC: Slashing and have an Elven Cleric grant you Scimiar proficiency
Take IC: Pierce, and use a non-optimal EMG against trash and Rapiers against bosses
Take IC: Slashing and splash fighter for Kukri/Scimitar proficiency


With a free Kukri proficiency, you don't need to spend a feat (or do other tricks) to use the same kind of weapon for bosses. With Cannith crafting, you can craft a number of Kukris, depending on what you're going to fight (HB silver/cold iron of GEOB, HB adamantine of GCB, HB (silver) of GUB, etc.).

For me, I'm already looking forward using Kukris on my rogue, even if there are no new Kukris. However, a Kukri with some serious damage (and no DR breaking) or a heavily debuffing Kukri would be nice.

maddmatt70
04-18-2013, 02:45 PM
On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

The other trees have it even worse, since they can't take deadly shadow and have to spend a lot of points on the assassin tree to get sneak attack training. I'm sure mechanics and thief acrobats will love doing 8d6+12 damage less than what they can do now on the live servers.

Yes less sneak damage, but more damage in other forms for the assassin seems more a wash damage wise. +to critical damage, killer, execute, and kukris/dagger are 18-20 X3. There are other benefits in assasin as well thus seems like a bump overall actually. Acrobat is all about the clickies so would really have to analyze those. I am a little concerned about the mechanic in some ways the bomb has a low save dc for example so guessing that mobs just save on epic elite easily probably not a very good a tree overall although nice flavor for the guys that like playing flavor characters and has a few nice things for other rogues to splash.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 02:59 PM
Assassin tree:
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int

Measure the Foe (1ap): Gain +1 to hit and to the DCs of your assassinate abilities every 6/4/2 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

Oh sweet mercy.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 03:01 PM
On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

Take into consideration the increased crit range/multiplier, poison stance, all the +[w] abilities, etc...

I'm really, REALLY liking the new enhancements for rogue.

Kmnh
04-18-2013, 03:10 PM
Yes less sneak damage, but more damage in other forms for the assassin seems more a wash damage wise. +to critical damage, killer, execute, and kukris/dagger are 18-20 X3. There are other benefits in assasin as well thus seems like a bump overall actually. Acrobat is all about the clickies so would really have to analyze those. I am a little concerned about the mechanic in some ways the bomb has a low save dc for example so guessing that mobs just save on epic elite easily probably not a very good a tree overall although nice flavor for the guys that like playing flavor characters and has a few nice things for other rogues to splash.

Killer might be good enough to catch up to live characters against trash. If you consistently do enough damage that killer and critical damage add up to 10 damage per swing or more, your character actually got better. But to get there you need to be doing 240 average damage already - My character won't suffer, but most others will I think.

Mechanics and Acrobats really got hosed by losing the deadly shadow capstone and sa damage enhancements. 4d6+12 is a lot of damage.

clkpacker
04-18-2013, 03:17 PM
Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.Seconded.

Also, please can we have an actual "vaulting" animation? If you're going to take away my sneak damage, you could at least continue the trend of staffs/TAs having the most beautiful weapon animations in-game.

maddmatt70
04-18-2013, 03:19 PM
Killer might be good enough to catch up to live characters against trash. If you consistently do enough damage that killer and critical damage add up to 10 damage per swing or more, your character actually got better. But to get there you need to be doing 240 average damage already - My character won't suffer, but most others will I think.

Mechanics and Acrobats really got hosed by losing the deadly shadow capstone and sa damage enhancements. 4d6+12 is a lot of damage.

Well the thing about acrobats is Henshin mystic as well so guessing most acrobats will be Henshin mystic/Acrobat if abilities stack so really impossible to say how that will play out until we see that, but yeah Mechanics are not very good other then for twisting abilities. They need to up the saves on time bomb and make it so it and mechanic works well with destinies. If time bomb was like energy burst with a brief delay could be interesting. I mean why not give time bomb an extremely high save or no save at all (should make this only available to higher level characters and make it so you can bump up the energy damage with gear and destinies).

Postumus
04-18-2013, 03:29 PM
Wow, so far I'm really liking the majority of the enhancements. The kukri ability is definitely a nice to have early on.

I'm not sure the overall damage is nerfed, it looks like with all the bonuses to crit, venom, etc it has been boosted.

I think a separate vault animation is also a great idea.

Ape_Man
04-18-2013, 03:31 PM
Well the thing about acrobats is Henshin mystic as well so guessing most acrobats will be Henshin mystic/Acrobat if abilities stack so really impossible to say how that will play out until we see that, but yeah Mechanics are not very good other then for twisting abilities. They need to up the saves on time bomb and make it so it and mechanic works well with destinies. If time bomb was like energy burst with a brief delay could be interesting. I mean why not give time bomb an extremely high save or no save at all (should make this only available to higher level characters and make it so you can bump up the energy damage with gear and destinies).

bah . .. just give the Mechanics the ability to place an "undermine" bomb every minute or so and it'll become the greatest PRE int he game.

HastyPudding
04-18-2013, 03:33 PM
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

Lithic
04-18-2013, 03:47 PM
Anyone check to see if the extra crit range on daggers makes them 15-20 with imp crit, or just 16-20? I would absolutely LOVE to have my rogue using daggers again even if I have to remake all my weapons.

Mandyb
04-18-2013, 03:47 PM
The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.
I'm going to miss cheat death! :(

Sardonica
04-18-2013, 03:53 PM
Mechanic Tree

(nice pic)

Core abilities:

(1) Arbalester: Raise ranged sneak attack/PBS range by 5 meters, and give proficiency with great xbows
(3) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area taack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.
(6) Improved Detection (2 AP): You can detect and search traps from 50% further. Gives proficiency with light repeaters
(12) Targeting Sights (2 AP): Uses Int for ranged/throw damage and proficiency with heavy repeaters.
(18) Expert Trapper (2 AP): Reduces the cooldown of all alchemical traps by 20%, and 3/rest if you critical fail while disarming, the box don't blow up on your face.
(20) Master Alchemist (2 AP): Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

snip



This looks like mechanic int to damage for repeaters got pushed out from level 6 (Mechanic I on live) to level 12 (Mechanic II). If this is true, it is a huge disappointment (and a deal breaker for some builds). Not happy :(

nibel
04-18-2013, 03:53 PM
The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.
I'm going to miss cheat death! :(

The bonus to hit is for any xbow. Only the damage portion is lower on repeaters (+6 on non-repaters, +2 on repeaters)

ComicRelief
04-18-2013, 03:53 PM
The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.

They did the same with Artificer X-bow training. You get +1 to hit with ALL X-bows (including repeaters), but only +1 damage for non-repeaters in all ranks. For repeaters, you get the +1 damage in the 2nd and 4th ranks, making non-repeaters +4/+4 (to hit/damage) and repeaters +4/+2 when fully taken. My guess is they thought that since repeaters shoot 3x per round, giving the +1 damage at every rank would make them OP. For low levels, I can see this, but for high levels? *shakes head*

I think if they are going to skip every other rank, they should give repeaters the +1 damage in ranks 1 and 3, instead of 2 and 4.

But what do I know?
;)

karl_k0ch
04-18-2013, 03:54 PM
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

I don't have access to the Lamannia client at the moment so I can check the exact contents of the mechanic tree.

However, I do know that there is at least one tier 3 ability from the Mechanic tree worth taking, i.e. Wand & Scroll Mastery. I don't think that it's a bad thing that Mechanic has useful abilities at tier 1.

With the old enhancement system, you had one resource for your enhancements: APs.

With the new enhancement system, there are two kinds of resources: APs and trees (up to 3 class ones). On most characters, even for pure classes, there will be 4 or more class trees available.
Thus, even if an interesting ability is at tier 1 of an otherwise uninteresting tree, spending these points is still a grave investion, as you will lock yourself out from one of the other trees available.


This looks like mechanic int to damage for repeaters got pushed out from level 6 (Mechanic I on live) to level 12 (Mechanic II). If this is true, it is a huge disappointment (and a deal breaker for some builds). Not happy :(

Bah, this kills my beloved 6Rog/6Art/8Past Life repeater build before I was able to play it myself.

Aashrym
04-18-2013, 03:55 PM
The bad news is that splashing Rogue may become more troublesome. I haven't played around much with Rogue splashes but they're very popular. Haste boost and Wand Mastery both take a tree and so taking both in a shallow splash is likely prohibitive, and Wand Mastery takes a heavier splash. It feels partly like Wand Mastery is up higher because once you can take one level of it, you can take all three right away - on Live the different tiers of Wand Mastery are gated by level, for example, and you can't get 75% until lvl 11, but you can get the first 30% at lvl 2.

That depends on what we splash it with and what we are splashing it for.

I can take haste boost on tempest and it's getting added back to a fighter tree so I wouldn't need that on rogue. Anyone who wants cheap wand and scroll get get that from a cleric splash. A rog 2 splash on a bard or cleric is still a fairly easy path to haste boost and both already have wand and scroll, or whatever.

If I'm just looking for skills and evasion I don't need to take any tree and those benefits with still be there, such as on a ranger or wizard.

I think it's more complicated and there are builds that will have to change or might not work but prohibitive is too strong a word because there new splashes that look appealing.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 03:55 PM
Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

As it is on live, there is no difference between the disabling skills of an Assassin and a mechanic. They both have the same disabling skills (unless you count junk like the Cabal trap).

Even if you put the faster search into a higher tier, Assassins/acrobats will take it anyway because Wand and Scroll Mastery is at tier3.

It's also not quite like making Assassinate or Knockdown immunity easily-accessible: faster searching is a completely new ability. And do you really want your PrE's core ability being "better trapmonkey?"

Flavilandile
04-18-2013, 03:56 PM
So if you don't use Crossbow but are a mechanic you're shafted...

Come on seriously : The Mechanic Tree needs to be heavilly reworked.
All the crossbow only stuff needs to be 'Ranged Weapon' ( pick one ).
and then it needs to get rid of some stuff... I miss my Smiting, I miss... a lot of things... so many things that I ended up spending on the Assassin Tree up to Tier 5 instead when I worked on my Mechanic...

I won't even go into the Thief-Acrobat Tree as I only have two weapon fighting rogues...

By the way, where is hidden the Toughness Enhancement ? I couldn't find any in any of the rogue trees.

nibel
04-18-2013, 04:12 PM
By the way, where is hidden the Toughness Enhancement ? I couldn't find any in any of the rogue trees.

Racial Toughness was scrapped. Instead, they added +20 HP to Heroic Durability (Previously: +20. Now: +25, plus +5 at 5th, 10th and 15th level)

So, all in all, it will stay the same and yuo saved 3 AP.

oradafu
04-18-2013, 04:20 PM
Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

Sticking a Dex modifier for tactical attacks like Trip and Stunning Blow should probably appear into one of two spots in the Acrobat tree. It could appear in the Core ability Stick Fighting, which is also where Acrobats can use Dex for damage. The other place that it could go is Trip Focus. Trip focus has 3 ranks, so why not put the Trip with Dex in the second rank and Stun with Dex in the third rank? It won't be an automatic give me to Acrobats, they would have to invest to get this ability.

===

For the most part, I'm enjoying the Acrobat tree. However, there are three things that I really don't like about it.

First, I made a suggest before when Vault was first seen a few months ago. Vault for a Tier 5 ability that costs 3 AP (since you need a rank of No Mercy) should be something more than just Abundant Step. It should be closer to the Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack. Vault should probably do a small amount of damage along with a chance of knocking down mobs. If nothing else, at least a chance to knockdown mobs.

Second, the Acrobat Capstone is Followthrough. I'll quote it here: "Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down." Ok, is the Vorpal Knockdown for all basic attacks or only 6 seconds after a Tumble? If it's all basic attacks, it's a great capstone. If it's just 6 seconds after tumbling, then it's a great disappointment and a bad capstone.

Third, Mechanic and Acrobat capstones should contain a +1 Sneak Attack die. It's just a small increase in damage for these prestige classes that dumped heavily into their chosen prestige. As someone else pointed out, both prestige classes no longer have access to the old Rogue capstone that everyone grabbed before. This isn't as powerful as the previous capstone, plus it's nowhere as powerful as the Assassins capstone.

SableShadow
04-18-2013, 04:35 PM
Third, Mechanic and Acrobat capstones should contain a +1 Sneak Attack die. It's just a small increase in damage for these prestige classes that dumped heavily into their chosen prestige. As someone else pointed out, both prestige classes no longer have access to the old Rogue capstone that everyone grabbed before. This isn't as powerful as the previous capstone, plus it's nowhere as powerful as the Assassins capstone.

There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.

sephiroth1084
04-18-2013, 04:36 PM
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.
This isn't, and shouldn't be, the Mechanic's flagship ability--it is a quality of life enhancement. Truthfully, I think it needs to be applied to the whole game for free--spending a long time disabling traps and searching (and opening doors, pulling a lever, etc...) is just annoying. I don't think they need to be instantaneous, but much faster would be good.

Carpone
04-18-2013, 04:46 PM
With DEX providing damage in the acrobat tree, does this mean when you deal damage with a quarterstaff that you are adding 1½ times your Dexterity bonus? Two handed weapons apply this bonus from Strength usually.

oradafu
04-18-2013, 04:48 PM
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

Just because you can do something faster doesn't make you an expert. Besides, what ability would you like to move down to replace Faster Disable? Skill Boost? Wand Heighten so that Wand Mastery and UMD get moved down a tier?

Let's be serious for a moment. Faster Disable is a convenience ability. The faster players can disable traps, then the faster a quest can be completed.


I won't even go into the Thief-Acrobat Tree as I only have two weapon fighting rogues...


I'm not sure it's working properly right now, but Sly Flourish should be something all non-ranged Rogues should invest in. Just so you know what I'm talking about: "Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs."

Also as others pointed out, there's Haste Boost and Subtlety in the second tier of Acrobat. All three should be something that TWF rogues seeking to fit into their build.

Carpone
04-18-2013, 04:54 PM
As a player with several multi-class characters, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.

It goes beyond disappointment, as it appears that Turbine went out of their way to ummm make multi-classing unworkable. And I am not just talking my two level splash builds, but my two builds with six levels of rouge, there is nothing for me to spend AP points on at the low levels.
Hyperbole. There are fantastic abilities for Acrobat at low level:

Tier 1: Acrobatic provides 15% alacrity with quarterstaves.
Tier 1: Staff Training provides +1 hit, dmg with quarterstaves.
Tier 2: Quick Strike provides 3[W] and 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds. (15 sec cool down.)

That's only 11 AP total spent, available before level 4. There's plenty of goodness to buy after that. Even if you don't plan on being a quarterstaff user in later levels, it's fantastic at low levels.

nibel
04-18-2013, 04:55 PM
There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.

This is mostly a problem for multiclass rogues. Pure rogues can easily dip on the assassin tree for 2d6 sneak. Add to that your extra damage for xbows that you didnt had before, and you are 2~4 damage under your old +12 sneak.

But as Aashrym said, not all splashes are killed because most splashes you do today are not for enhancements, but for class features.

The lost capstone 4d6 sneak is much more problematic than the sneak damage lines. I loved the suggestion to add 1d6 to the other rogue capstones.

Flavilandile
04-18-2013, 05:03 PM
Racial Toughness was scrapped. Instead, they added +20 HP to Heroic Durability (Previously: +20. Now: +25, plus +5 at 5th, 10th and 15th level)

So, all in all, it will stay the same and yuo saved 3 AP.

I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 05:13 PM
With DEX providing damage in the acrobat tree, does this mean when you deal damage with a quarterstaff that you are adding 1½ times your Dexterity bonus? Two handed weapons apply this bonus from Strength usually.

There are a few DEX-to-DMG staves and they, unfortunately, don't give the 1.5x bonus.

nibel
04-18-2013, 05:18 PM
I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

As far as I know, rogues never had class toughness enhancements. Why would you expect it to be there?

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 05:19 PM
With Sireth and "take rogue level, get 15% speed bonus to staves", I'm predicting a lot of Rogue-splashed barbs with sticks.


I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

Rogues have never had a class bonus to HP.

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 05:33 PM
ok, so here are my first impressions on the Assassin tree.


Core abilities

Knife in the Darkness
You gain proficiency with kukris. You can also use your Dex mod to hit with Daggers and Kukris.

This ability right now gives every rogue Kukri proficiency right out of the gate. I don't know if I like that. For multiclassers I understand it's a choice (you are limited to 3 trees) but this is the equivalent of a feat, for free, for all rogues, at level 1, with no investment needed.

Dagger in the Back
Dex mod instead of STR for damage with Kukris and Daggers. Also, dex mod instead of STR for damage for any light weapon if you have the Weapon Finess Feat.

I like what you did here. I was concerned that we would only have dagger/kukri wielding assassins running around. Instead of limiting the Dex to damage to just Kukris and Daggers, you expanded it with a cost allowing for more choices and diversity. Thank you for that.

Assassins Trick
Awesome, awesome, awesome. This ability will be a life saver in certain situations. A Rogue's death are undead and constructs. This ability helps alleviate that. However, it has some problems. It uses the bluff animation, which is fine, but the debuff only starts AFTER the animation is finished. This is a good 3-4 seconds unlike bluff which applies the debuff immediately and most of the animation you can skip. Waiting for an animation is cumbersome and annoying, please make it the same way bluff is.

Nimbleness
I can understand why you put Assassinate as a Tier 5 ability and this as the level 12 core ability instead. Not everyone who splashes into the assassin tree is going to want to assassinate. But this ability seems... out of place. It feels more like an acrobat ability. I'm not sure what you would put here instead but this ability seems lost and confused. Although it is a nice boost to defense in the middle of a fight.


Tree Abilities

Poison Strikes (Cooldown 6 seconds, duration 20 seconds, stacks up to 5 times)
Heartseeker Poison: On Damage: -1 fortitude save; on Crit: 1d6 Con damage; on Vorpal: -5% HP (lasts for 10 seconds)
Ice Chill Poison: On Damage: - 1 Reflex save; on Crit: 1d6 Dex damage; on Vorpal: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates, 25% chance for an additional save when the affected creature is damaged)
Soulshatter Poison: On Damage -1 Will save; On Crit: 1d6 Wisdom damage; on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 spell resistance for 10 seconds (Will DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates)

A nice change. Making them dedicated strikes gives them power and adds to their appeal and versatility. However, they are lacking.

Heartseeker Poison – the 5% HP reduction is only a debuff and the mob gets their HP back after 10 seconds. I would suggest just making this pure damage. 5% is really not all that much.
Ice Chill Poison: 1d6 dex on crit kills this one. Dex damage is only really effective against oozes. I would suggest changing it to -10% attack and movement speed or something similar. It gives added flavor and versatility.
Soulshatter Poison: 1d6 wis on crit is hard to say whether it's useful or not since the High Priestess dagger is the only weapon with this effect. I will have to reserve judgement as far as its effectiveness until I test it further. I will say that I would prefer something like On crit -2 spell resistance or something similar.

Because of these reasons, I only see people ever taking Heartseeker at the moment. The on damage save debuffs are good (especially because they cans tack, -1 to a will save doesn't seem like much but making them stack adds value) and Vorpal abilities are good the way they are (really just cherries on top, to unrealiable to depend on them) but the crit abilities need work.

I would also make the poisons share a cooldown. Spamming poison attacks because you can and getting lucky on a vorpal seems like lazy play to me, not tactical. Also, poison stacks are are proccing on off-hand attacks, is this WAI?

Shiv
-2 save on poison is ok... if the poison attacks were to proc more reliably. Right now, they're only applied on a Vorpal. Sky Flouish in the acrobat tree adds more. To make this worth it, change poisons to be more useful or change the -2 Fort against poisons to something else, maybe add a crit effect (+1 crit multiplier?).

Bleed them out
Just as useful as the Tempest ability. I'm not sure why this now generic ability has found a way to ugly 2 trees but they really need to go. Not only does the bleed effect adds no meaningful damage, it doesn't even tell you how little damage it does in the description/tooltip.

Venomed Blades
Good flavor, good cost/damage ratio. I also like that I can be in both precision and poison stance at the same time. I think this ability is 100% spot on.

Shadow Dagger
At first this ability looked like fodder to me, but when I stopped to think about it, it can actually be very helpful. I see this more as a low-mid level set-up ability that will help a Rogue get sneak attacks, especially after some good tactics (like a Bluff pull) and even help get an assassinate. The reduced cooldown and increased DC of later ranks make it a good ability to take for leveling.

Execute
I'm still torn on this. Not only is this a copy/paste of Hunter's Mercy from deepwood stalker, it has 2x the cooldown and you don't have the option of using it at range. HOWEVER, with smart play and good tactics and decisions, this ability can increase DPS by quite a bit. I just can't shake the feeling that it should be different somehow... I'll update after further testing.

Measure the Foe
Thank you thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU for this ability. Oh it is so perfect. The flavor of thinking of an assassin just waiting in the shadows, studying his opponent, crafting his moment of attack to improve his chances of an instant kill make me want to hug someone. Not only that, it gives a much needed boost to the DC of assassins since EpicGH came out. I sincerely hope that assassins don't take this ability too far and do nothing but stay in sneak the whole time. Rogues, if you do this, I will find you, no matter how sneaky you are. You are instakillers AND DPS. Don't neglect the DPS between the instakills.

Knife Specialization
I had problems swallowing this ability at first. The ability fits well, but... remember when I said Dagger in the Back was great because it added diversity? Well my first impressions of this ability was that it took that diversity right back out. With this ability, any knife or a kukri becomes 1d4 18-20 x3. This out DPS's any of the other options made available to you with Dagger in the Back (eg Shortwords or Rapiers). However, while wielding 2 Agonys on Lamannia against kobolds may make this seem OP, in reality, there is not always going to be a dagger that best fits your situation and you're lucky to have 2 Agony's in the first place. In that respect, if you do have 2 Agonys you deserve the boost. I still think this tilts the Dagger/Kukri wielding assassin into the “almost always better and you are gimp if you're not” category though. I can't think of a solution to remedy though...


Other thoughts
The trees are designed very well. The “essential” abilities (Haste Boost, Faster Sneaking) are all easily reachable. To reach some other abilities, I have to make decisions on what I have to sacrifice (eg I'd have to sacrifice my assassinate DC a bit in order to take No Mercy or Improved Defensive Roll). So good job on the AP costs. I've always said in games like this, when the decision is hard, the design is good. Good job on encouraging some hard decisions devs :D.


Will post later with my thoughts on the rest later after I LR my rogue to better fit the other prestiges.

arcattaii
04-18-2013, 05:33 PM
For Assassins, the tier of Wand and Scroll Mastery is too high, and there are no must-abilities in Tier 1&2 of Mechanic tree.

Unlike the Acrobat tree, the Fast Sneaking is a must for assassins and Sly Flourish/Charming are also good abilities, then they will have access to Attack Speed Boost and Subtlety.

oradafu
04-18-2013, 05:37 PM
The lost capstone 4d6 sneak is much more problematic than the sneak damage lines. I loved the suggestion to add 1d6 to the other rogue capstones.

I forgot my other suggestion on increasing the Sneak Attack damage for Acrobats and Mechanics.

The Devs should add a Sneak Attack die to the 4th tier of Staff Training and Crossbow Training. This would also help these Prestige classes with the loss of the Sneak Attack capstone. With the sneak attack damage added on there, it's a deep investment (8 AP) on their preferred weapon. Acrobats and Mechanics won't be able to get the extra damage when using some other weapon, so it's not an across the board sneak attack increase.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 05:43 PM
Full commentary in this thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4991467#post4991467)

What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:
The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
4d6 SA capstone
Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
Enhancement to run/walk speed--where did that go?
Showtime clicky. Mostly useless only the dex portion stacked and it consumed a haste boost, which is 99% more useful
A whopping 4% dodge, unless you count a -30% fortification debuff and +3% dodge a net gain. It's not.
THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).
That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.

They gained:
Vault, which is neat
No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)

nibel
04-18-2013, 05:44 PM
For Assassins, the tier of Wand and Scroll Mastery is too high, and there are no must-abilities in Tier 1&2 of Mechanic tree.

Why you don't want quick disable, +3 to skills, or skill boost?

ahpook
04-18-2013, 05:56 PM
There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.
I don't think a general class tree is needed. You just dip into the other trees as needed. My assassin focused rogue was easily able to dip into mechanic and acrobat to pick up those "general" items (haste boost, disable boosts...). It may be more useful to indentify those items that should be generally used and make sure they are not too high up the tree so they can be accessed.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 06:05 PM
Full commentary in this thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4991467#post4991467)


THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).

That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted

Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

arcattaii
04-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Why you don't want quick disable, +3 to skills, or skill boost?

Yes, quick disable is nice ability, but it's not necessary ability for an assassin, even not for a rogue.

Rogue is always an AP-tight-class, so I won't spend AP on them if I have better choices.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 06:41 PM
Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

I'd also like to know, but from the wording I am not encouraged.

If it's as I suggested and uses the higher of str or dex it's still relevant though, as I have to purchase junky core enhancements that don't benefit me at all.

arcattaii
04-18-2013, 06:43 PM
Full commentary in this thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4991467#post4991467)

What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:
The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
4d6 SA capstone
Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).
That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.

They gained:
Vault, which is neat
No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)

100% agree.

4d6 SA is Ok, since you get +1 range/multiplier for QStaff instead, but Acrobats still lose a lot of damage compared to live.

The attack speed change is another lame example of Turbine just changing the ability description for their obvious bug lol.

Cartwheel Charge is very very poor, you may just drink a Rage pot for 1:30min morale bonus 2STR/CON buff, so this ability will just give you 2DEX for 6 seconds actually.

Followthrough is also not good except the passive +2STR/DEX part.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 06:49 PM
I'd also like to know, but from the wording I am not encouraged.

Then maybe you (or someone) should go test that.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 06:51 PM
Cartwheel Charge is very very poor, you may just drink a Rage pot for 1:30min morale bonus 2STR/CON buff, so this ability will just give you 2DEX for 6 seconds actually.

I didn't even see the morale bonus type.

Jesus. H. Christ. That ability is such a trap. You gain like 1 damage on your next hit (two if you're lucky) at the expense of not hitting for the entire duration of your crappy tumble, which is likely putting you farther away from your enemy.

Updating OP.

Thank you for pointing this atrocity out.

MalarKan
04-18-2013, 06:51 PM
'Sweeping Strikes': i ALWAYS wanted this, its like they read my forum post where i suggested long ago :3

'Quick Strike': i loved the short the 25% double strike. BUT i was really expecting it to be more permanent than just temporary. But of course, while only weilding staves.

'Staff Lunge': loved the new animation, good work. BUT i would suggest this special ability to count as tumble action triggering "Cartwheel charge" and "Followthrough" same as adding a chance for all (yes, ALL) tactical feats including the new acrobat ones to trigger the same effects of above (like a 50% for cleave, 80% for great cleave, 100% for 'Staff Lunge', and u can fill in the rest).

*PS: 'Vault'? They MUST have read mi post :3 i love it...

'Acrobatic': dont get me wrong, i love its effects and i WILL use it... but putting them available for someone with just 1 rogue level to access the 15% staff alacrity is not the way to go. 5% in tier 1 is good, tho probly should go in tier 2, the 10% in tier 3 and 15% in tier 4... Oh and a 20% in tier 5!!! :) . And put a minimum rogue level prerrequisite to AP spend in each tier. someone with just 1 rogue level SHOULD NOT be able to access any rogue capstone.

Also, i would like to suggest to forget the "half rogue level" for determinating the tactical feats's DC, just give it the full class level for it to be really usable in epics, and even low, mid, high level, its only way to make not only usable but effective when playing elite quests at level, for example.

My acrobatic 2 cents <3

Ayseifn
04-18-2013, 06:58 PM
I really don't what the devs have done here for the most part, we got the faster search/disable people have wanted for a long time but for some strange reason we also got Measure the Foe. So I get to sit in sneak mode for 10 secs if I want to maximize my chance of assassinating an EE monster?

Execute, Poison Strikesx3, Bleed Them Out, Shiv, Assassin's trick, Sly Flourish are all one off attacks from what I can tell, add in Sweeping Strikes and Staff Lunge for staff users. Way too many clickies on a squishy melee class that's more reliant on positioning than others.

The 3 tree limit really hurts here, like others in this thread I want scroll mastery/haste boost/SA damage on any mostly rogue build but now it'll block me from any other class tree. The push to make pure rogues a strong choice over the last few years I think has gone a little too far now, lots of abilities that scale only with rog level and usually int but sometimes dex, strong capstones and now this three tree limit. Going to have to wait for the other classes to come next week to really get a feel for things but deep multiclassing of rogues doesn't look all that enticing anymore.

The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.

arcattaii
04-18-2013, 06:59 PM
Too many abilities using HALF ROGUE LEVEL for their DC, let's make a calculation:

Let's estimate 58-60 is a reliable number, then DC = 10(base) + 10(half rogue level) + 38(INT modifier), that means you need 86INT to reliably land your rogue abilities to EE mobs.

The Toxin/Venom line from Assassin is a joke, because bosses will probably immune to these effects. And mobs will usually die in seconds, why shall we use the venom?

The Alchemical Grenade is a joke too.. IMO, the reason is still the ridiculous low DC.. they should all use your Disable Skill for DC

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 07:01 PM
Someone refresh me on the core abilities. If I purchase all the core abilities in Assassin, can I get knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 07:01 PM
Then maybe you (or someone) should go test that.

and Lama routinely crashes for me. But yes, I would love to if I could.

Clearly I'm living vicariously by doubling my post count in the forums, shrieking at devs for their incompetence with the divine trees.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 07:04 PM
Too many abilities using HALF ROGUE LEVEL for their DC, let's make a calculation:

Let's estimate 58-60 is a reliable number, then DC = 10(base) + 10(half rogue level) + 38(INT modifier), that means you need 86INT to reliably land your rogue abilities to EE mobs.

The Toxin/Venom line from Assassin is a joke, because bosses will probably immune to these effects. And mobs will usually die in seconds, why shall we use the venom?

The Alchemical Grenade is a joke too.. IMO, the reason is still the ridiculous low DC.. they should all use your Disable Skill for DC

EH should be our benchmark for whether DCs are viable at all, and it's still not viable for those.

I'm okay with EEs being extremely tough but not impossible for DCs to land.

They should alternatively consider just taking the DC away for some of the abilities that are weaker, or even nerfing some of the abilities but taking away the save.

At least that way you know that's it's not going to be 100% useless for 90% of all rogues.

nibel
04-18-2013, 07:26 PM
Someone refresh me on the core abilities. If I purchase all the core abilities in Assassin, can I get knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

If you mean "instantly, without much investment on the acrobat tier", no.

If you mean "I can have other core abilities besides the one I have a capstone", then yes.

The knckdown immunity ability requires 20 points spent on the acrobat tree. So, you just will be left with 16 AP for your third tree and racials if you also want Deadly Shadows from assassin tree.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 07:35 PM
So I get to sit in sneak mode for 10 secs if I want to maximize my chance of assassinating an EE monster?

I don't think it says you have to stand still. So if you're just moving down a hallway or something, you'll be good to go for your Assassinate.


The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.

If you weren't already using Kukri (Epic Midnight's Greetings) and dagger (Agony), you were doing it wrong. Improved deception is a must.

HastyPudding
04-18-2013, 07:36 PM
This isn't, and shouldn't be, the Mechanic's flagship ability--it is a quality of life enhancement. Truthfully, I think it needs to be applied to the whole game for free--spending a long time disabling traps and searching (and opening doors, pulling a lever, etc...) is just annoying. I don't think they need to be instantaneous, but much faster would be good.

Having mechanics do this faster makes them unique and separates them from the melee rogues. And, yes, that kind of IS the point of being a mechanic; an expert with trapping, high saves vs traps, and enhanced trapmaking.


Just because you can do something faster doesn't make you an expert. Besides, what ability would you like to move down to replace Faster Disable? Skill Boost? Wand Heighten so that Wand Mastery and UMD get moved down a tier?

Let's be serious for a moment. Faster Disable is a convenience ability. The faster players can disable traps, then the faster a quest can be completed.

Spoken like an assassin on live that says 'I can get traps without being a mechanic'. Seriously? With this being on tier 1, ANY class that splashes a level or two of rogue can instantly do traps. That's bogus in and of itself.

I would put skill boost on a lower tier, as every rogue tends to use that. Mechanics need something that's unique to them and not constantly being shat on by other rogues and artificers like they are on live. Putting this ability on tier 1 will do nothing but make people say 'Hey, I think mechanic looks like fun--oh wait, I can just put an expendable 3 points in the tree and do instant trapping and go assassin and still zerg in quests.'


As it is on live, there is no difference between the disabling skills of an Assassin and a mechanic. They both have the same disabling skills (unless you count junk like the Cabal trap).

Even if you put the faster search into a higher tier, Assassins/acrobats will take it anyway because Wand and Scroll Mastery is at tier3.

It's also not quite like making Assassinate or Knockdown immunity easily-accessible: faster searching is a completely new ability. And do you really want your PrE's core ability being "better trapmonkey?"

Once again, you too speak like the typical assassin on live. "Screw mechanic, give me my wand/scroll/umd boost and fast trapping so I can spend my points in the assassin tree."

And therein lies the problem with live right now; there really IS no benefit to going mechanic, because assassins -- and to a slightly lesser degree, acrobats -- can do traps just as well. Add in the fact that artificer completely made mechanics obsolete and trap-making is next to useless past the harbor levels and it's even worse.



None of you made a mechanic on live, did you? I'm wiling to bet all three of you are either an assassin or acrobat junkie. I am sure you never heard 'Why are you a mechanic? Just go artificer.' or "Why mechanic? Assassins are sooo much better."

There's an almost social stigma surrounding mechanics (even more so when artificers arrived). Putting a great ability like this on tier 1 is pretty damaging to anyone wanting to be a mechanic (like myself) as there is just nothing special about them aside from crossbows and having an almost guaranteed no-fail trap skill. Their saves-vs-traps ability (another strong point for mechanics) is also tier 1. Basically everything that makes a mechanic a mechanic is very easy to get.

If it sounds like I'm lobbying/advocating for mechanics, it's because I am. This enhancement pass, which I was hoping would make mechanics viable, seems to be doing the exact opposite. All they did was make them easy to exploit for faster trapping and a few boosts and gave them some next-to-useless grenade abilities that have useless DC's. I am not impressed.

FunnyCide
04-18-2013, 07:49 PM
The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely. She has been my favorite character for a long time. If this pigeon holing goes live...chances are I may finally quit. I've rolled with a lot of the changes that have come to the game but the loss of freedom to build how I want isn't one I'm willing to live with.

So is Bill Roper the new exec producer? Coz that's what it feels like.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 07:50 PM
The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely. She has been my favorite character for a long time. If this pigeon holing goes live...chances are I may finally quit.

How would it break your build, and how does it pigeon-hole?

FunnyCide
04-18-2013, 07:56 PM
How would it break your build, and how does it pigeon-hole?

She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 07:57 PM
If it sounds like I'm lobbying/advocating for mechanics, it's because I am. This enhancement pass, which I was hoping would make mechanics viable, seems to be doing the exact opposite. All they did was make them easy to exploit for faster trapping and a few boosts and gave them some next-to-useless grenade abilities that have useless DC's. I am not impressed.

Except that you are doing it in different ways. I have rogues of each prestige, and I think I'm if anything most biased towards my acrobat. That aside, the arguments seem to be:

1) Make trapsmithing the core of mechanics. Mechanics need that to distinguish them.
2) Trapsmithing should be innately easy for mechanics, but not their highlight. Their highlights should be: ______.

Personally (and from some other responses here), I'd prefer for that blank to be filled with lots of ranged and trap damage.

I think you are arguing for the former point, but the points are not mutually exclusive. Everyone wants mechanics to be appealing and flavorful and powerful, the former camp (you) just wants trapsmithing to be a highlight whereas the latter group wants the ranged, grenade effects, and trap setting abilities of the mechanics to be their most powerful ability with trapsmithing as a bonus.

That is because, as you said, we can all do traps just fine regardless of being a mechanic.

I do not think that the faster disabling/whatever trapsmithing abilities should be tiered higher. If anything, I think it should remain just where it is and all the offensive capabilities should be somewhere on the order of doubled in their power. Yes, doubled. :] I do love my mechanic.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 08:09 PM
If you weren't already using Kukri (Epic Midnight's Greetings) and dagger (Agony), you were doing it wrong. Improved deception is a must.

C'mon Q...let's promote creativity here. "You were doing it wrong" is such a sad statement to make.

First of all, iDeception comes from plenty of offhand sources like Backstabber's Gloves, Ring of Lies, Ring of Deception, Golden Guile, and Seal of House Avithoul. Those are all great items to have on a rogue, too--you can fit them into gear sets without wasting anything.

Just because eMG and Agony work great for you doesn't mean that's what everyone should aspire to--if anything, you should encourage other and be happy for them doing something different and equally effective.

Off the top of my head, dual (even unupgraded) Balizardes and Celestias do quite a bit more damage than eMG/Agony considering Balizarde's crit profile and Celestia's DR-breaking + radiance effects. I've seen a player with dual Vacuum shortswords completely mow down mobs over my eMG-wielding character. Stars of Day can work pretty nicely as well.

I know someone that uses a Cormyrian rapier with life stealing in main hand and a simple Petrifying Hooked Blade for the limbchopper+petrifying to really great effect.

Let's say the devs pulled something out of the crazy hat like they did for the Protection Tree and said, "Assassins now get bonuses when they use axes only" with no buff to kukris/dagger/shuriken.

Wouldn't you be a bit peeved and confused if someone said, "If you're not using dual axes of adaxus, you're doing it wrong."

Anyway, I only pull out eMG for EE when I know my DC absolutely must be shored up--any other content and it's utterly redundant. As for Agony, I use that on a melee wizard...

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 08:13 PM
She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

Even though I love staff combat, there're waaay too many exclusively staff-oriented enhancements and very few things that help out those that want to think creatively instead of use a buffed-up poor-crit-profile weapon.

My acrobat uses staves in dreadnought and fury, but uses quite a few handwraps in GMoF and Shadowdancer as well as situationally, and also situationally uses rapiers and shortswords.

Devs were so busy trying to give under-appreciated weapons a boost that they did so at the expense of crafting some enhancements branches that benefit people that don't want to just make a dex staff rogue.

I mean, if DDO were about making Staff Rogues and Nannybots and Dagger Assassins and Shield Defenders only half the playerbase would be gone already.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 08:18 PM
Having mechanics do this faster makes them unique and separates them from the melee rogues. And, yes, that kind of IS the point of being a mechanic; an expert with trapping, high saves vs traps, and enhanced trapmaking.

I really don't see the appeal of being good at traps. A lot of quests don't feature them, they can often be avoided manually, and if all else fails and you don't have a trapper you can be rezzed on the other side. Not to mention so many classes have Wings now. They are one single, uncommon obstacle in quests and I just don't see how it's supposed to be fun to specced to handle them.

So how about you suggest things like "buff the damage for the elemental mines" or "let us deploy mines instantly" and bonuses/abilities to xbow attack, besides getting flustered that Assassins and Acrobats will encroach on "your" prestige tree just for some easy bonuses.

Oh, I just had a good idea. I'll write it up in a bit.

Cernunan
04-18-2013, 08:23 PM
I mean, if DDO were about making Staff Rogues and Nannybots and Dagger Assassins and Shield Defenders only half the playerbase would be gone already.

By the way, this exactly describes what they are doing over at NWO.

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 08:32 PM
Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

It's the higher of the two.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 08:37 PM
By the way, this exactly describes what they are doing over at NWO.

And exactly what will decapitate this already clunky, old, poor-graphics game that people mostly loved for the creativity.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 08:38 PM
It's the higher of the two.

1) I love you, thanks
2) So that means that str-acrobats will have to spend 4 AP on enhancements that do exactly nothing for them?

@#$% this ^&*(

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 08:58 PM
C'mon Q...let's promote creativity here. "You were doing it wrong" is such a sad statement to make.

Well alright then, let me rephrase: if you weren't using improved deception weapons, you were missing out.

A few things:
-Accessories stack with weapons, meaning a higher rate of deception proc
-Deception proc acts like a bluff. When it procs, the mob often turns around and doesn't attack for a couple seconds
-The proc rate with dual ID weapons and an accessory are so high that it's trivial to maintain sneak attack on a mob that's aggroed on you. The constant procs also cause the mob to simply stand there for a large portion of combat
-With haste boost, you can regularly "lock" a red-named boss down. They get hit with deception at so high a rate that they can't do much of anything, even with only one rogue

Other weapons may have higher damage, CC effects or fun things like Vacuum, but they just don't compare to the utility of ID.

At any rate, daggers are *the* iconic weapon for DnD rogues. It's not odd to add bonuses to them. Kukri is likely in there for eMG and literally no other reason. Ignore the bonuses and use any weapon, if you want, or just lobby to add rapiers an shortswords in there too (the only bonus they're missing out on is the improved crit profile and not needing weapon finesse to get DEX to DMG).


She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

Well, just ignore the bonuses to staffs. They're not nerfing your ability to use any weapon you want.

Now, Stalwart Defender *requires* a lot of its abilities (some of which are already on live, with a restriction) to be used with a shield. *That* is pigeon-holing.

At least Varg said they'd "loosen" (and by loosen I hope they mean remove) the shield requirements.

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 09:00 PM
1) I love you, thanks
2) So that means that str-acrobats will have to spend 4 AP on enhancements that do exactly nothing for them?

@#$% this ^&*(

Well, right now, if you are a STR acrobat, you spend 12AP on Dex Rogue Dexterity I-III as well as 5 AP on Rogue Faster Sneaking I, Improved Balance II, Improved Tumble II. The new enhancements have none of those things as requirements. Instead, you have the option of taking them or a host of other actually useful abilities. I'm pretty pleased with most of Acrobat actually. Not all of it, but I'll write a more comprehensive review later after I've played with it a bit more.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 09:08 PM
-Accessories stack with weapons, meaning a higher rate of deception proc


I forget--does regular deception, improved deception, and offhand regular+improved deception stack?

I'm not quite sure of the stacking but I've experienced at least improved+offhand improved stacking

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 09:14 PM
Well, right now, if you are a STR acrobat, you spend 12AP on Dex Rogue Dexterity I-III as well as 5 AP on Rogue Faster Sneaking I, Improved Balance II, Improved Tumble II. The new enhancements have none of those things as requirements. Instead, you have the option of taking them or a host of other actually useful abilities. I'm pretty pleased with most of Acrobat actually. Not all of it, but I'll write a more comprehensive review later after I've played with it a bit more.

I agree that acrobat is leaps and bounds better than, say, Archmage (lacking secondary SLA line) and clerics (all of it).

I think it'd be best if they changed it to:

(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit and damage with staves

(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Add dex modifier to sneak attacks

Like on live, having the dex-mod-to-SA guarantees that there's a scaling net benefit to more dexterity.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 09:15 PM
where's our enhancement to it as acrobats?

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 09:37 PM
Alright, here is my suggestion for mechanic:


(core) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area attack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.

(tier 1) Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)

(tier 2) Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.

(tier 3) Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.

(tier 5) Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.

Scrap all of these, they suck.

Replace with:

(core) Bombardment (2 AP): You are able to add your DEX mod to the DC's of your alchemical grenades, and you have a chance for a grenade to return to you (based on DEX, I'm thinking straight 1:1 ratio e.g. 10 DEX mod means 10% chance to not expend a grenade). Furthermore, you can greatly increase the rate of fire of your grenades, and an even greater chance to have a grenade return to you (thinking double the chance of return, rate of fire would increase by 50% or something, 120s cooldown 20 sec duration).

(tier 2) Mass Production(1 AP): Grenades cost 20/40/60% less parts to make and do 10/20/30% more damage. Traps cost 10/20/30% less parts.

(tier 3) Improved Deployment (1 AP): Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instead of 50%, and the time it takes to deploy them is reduced by 30/60/90%.

(tier 4) Fireworks (1 AP): Your grenades have a chance to proc a second effect

-Fire: Target is engulfed in flames and takes 4d6/6d6/8d6 additional damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. Additional procs will reset the timer
-Acid: Target's fortification is lowered by 5/10/15% for 30 seconds
-Cold: Target is slowed by 10/20/30%
-Electric: Target's saves are reduced by 2/4/6
-Sonic: Target is stunned for 2/4/6 seconds
-Force: Target is knocked down for 2/4/6 seconds

(tier 5) Watch Your Step (1 AP): Multiplies the damage your mines do by 20/40/60% of your INT mod, and reduces their cooldown by 25/50/75%.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 09:38 PM
I forget--does regular deception, improved deception, and offhand regular+improved deception stack?

I'm not quite sure of the stacking but I've experienced at least improved+offhand improved stacking

Accessory, offhand, and main hand sources of ID all stack.

I am not sure about two accessories, but I don't think so.

Corzak
04-18-2013, 09:41 PM
I'm unable to find the base runspeed increase that's currently available to acrobats. I'm also feeling a little bummed about having to take -30% fort from a toggle to gain 3% dodge, since acrobats currently have 4% built in.

oradafu
04-18-2013, 09:45 PM
Except that you are doing it in different ways. I have rogues of each prestige, and I think I'm if anything most biased towards my acrobat. That aside, the arguments seem to be:

1) Make trapsmithing the core of mechanics. Mechanics need that to distinguish them.
2) Trapsmithing should be innately easy for mechanics, but not their highlight. Their highlights should be: ______.

Personally (and from some other responses here), I'd prefer for that blank to be filled with lots of ranged and trap damage.

I think you are arguing for the former point, but the points are not mutually exclusive. Everyone wants mechanics to be appealing and flavorful and powerful, the former camp (you) just wants trapsmithing to be a highlight whereas the latter group wants the ranged, grenade effects, and trap setting abilities of the mechanics to be their most powerful ability with trapsmithing as a bonus.

That is because, as you said, we can all do traps just fine regardless of being a mechanic.

I do not think that the faster disabling/whatever trapsmithing abilities should be tiered higher. If anything, I think it should remain just where it is and all the offensive capabilities should be somewhere on the order of doubled in their power. Yes, doubled. :] I do love my mechanic.

This is pretty much my feelings about what Mechanic should be focused on. Although don't play a Mechanic, I believe the major buffs to Mechanic should be getting some unique damage buffs. Pigeon holing Mechanics as strictly trapmonkeys is a trap (pun).

What are some buffs for Mechanic? I'd probably have Leg Shot buffed up with a Bleeding, Lacerating or even a Hemorrhaging DoT. Mechanics should also have some sort of Flashbang/Smokebomb Grenade: something that combines Solidfog and Sunburst with maybe some Force damage. As I said, I'm not a Mechanic, but buffs like these would be useful in more quests than just the ones that have traps and would be more uniquely Mechanic than doing traps more quickly.

MaximusParthas
04-18-2013, 09:47 PM
please take into account that an assassins primary stat is NOT dexterity.
Also I'm not keen on wasting AP's to lure us into using kukris and daggers unless there is a plan in play to significantly make these weapons more competitive.

Right now I'm playing an assassin 3 fighter2 splash which dual wields the ax of adaxus.
I don't see that as unrogue like at all.
Why should we have pigeonholed powers that can't be used unless we do such and such?

And poison? That was a fail with the prestige to begin with. End game creatures above normal difficulty seem to be inherently immune to poison or stat damage. Why I don't know.

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 09:49 PM
I'm unable to find the base runspeed increase that's currently available to acrobats. I'm also feeling a little bummed about having to take -30% fort from a toggle to gain 3% dodge, since acrobats currently have 4% built in.

I totally forgot the dodge component they will be missing.

Uuugh.

Also, I was hoping for some kind of decreased cooldown to uncanny dodge. That would be miles ahead of any crappy fort-debuff+dodge+buff passive.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 09:55 PM
Also I'm not keen on wasting AP's to lure us into using kukris and daggers unless there is a plan in play to significantly make these weapons more competitive.

15-20/x3 crit profile is pretty competitive.

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 10:18 PM
I whipped up a quick Human Acrobat/Assassin build. With all the doom and gloom I thought it was worth posting.

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n518/bhgiant/ScreenShot00038.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/bhgiant/media/ScreenShot00038.jpg.html)

The highlights
Dex to hit and damage with quarterstaves
immunity to most knockdown and slippery surfaces
+4 to-hit, +6 damage with quarterstaves (base dmg, added before crit mult)
+4 SA dice
+1d8 poison damage (permanent)
+3 seeker (inherant and stacking)
+1 bonus to crit range and multiplier with quarterstaves
+15% attack speed with quarterstaves, +3 to balance jump and tumble
+30% Haste Boost
+20% Damage Boost
+30% damage to helpless opponents
Quick Strike (3[W] attack which gives me 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds afterward, 12 second cooldown)
Sweeping Strike (3[W] attack which acts like a Great Cleve and trips all opponent around you for DC 10 + ½ Rogue level + Dex mod)
Improved Defensive Roll (at 50% or below health, you have a chance equal to your Reflex save to reduce damage delt to you to 20% of it's original value)

What is lost from the old enhancement
+Dex mod to Sneak Attack
+12 Sneak Attack damage from enhancement
+20% movement speed

I can understand the disappointment for what is lost. It requires some rethinking about builds. I don't think the Acrobat prestige is perfect, in fact, I think there are some things that absolutely need to be changed (movement speed enhancements need to be added to the core abilities and Cartwheel Charge need to go like an overstaying mother-in-law), but don't give into the knee jerk reaction of hating the new thing because you can't have what you always had.

oradafu
04-18-2013, 10:48 PM
What is lost from the old enhancement
+Dex mod to Sneak Attack
+12 Sneak Attack damage from enhancement
+20% movement speed

I can understand the disappointment for what is lost. It requires some rethinking about builds. I don't think the Acrobat prestige is perfect, in fact, I think there are some things that absolutely need to be changed (movement speed enhancements need to be added to the core abilities and Cartwheel Charge need to go like an overstaying mother-in-law), but don't give into the knee jerk reaction of hating the new thing because you can't have what you always had.

Acrobats also lost +11 bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble and a +4 Dex temporary bonus. Okay, that temporary Dex can be turned into a permanent +3 Dex at the loss of -30% Fort. Also most players don't care about the Acrobat skill boost.

But still what is missing is what players gain at level 12 in the game currently. Also there are things that one would expect for a full acrobat that the new enhancements didn't improve on. For example, staff attack speed bonus didn't increase at all... In fact, Acrobats never gained the 20% staff attack speed that should be at Acrobat II but has been broken forever, while Acrobat Monks appear to gain more speed.

Inherent Acrobat stuff currently available in the game should be on par, if not better, with the live server.

Gizeh
04-18-2013, 11:08 PM
If I understand it correctly, we now need to have Wand and Scroll Heightening (increased wand/scroll DCs, which is COMPLETELY useless on any rogue I've played or seen played in the game) in order to take wand and scroll mastery, which is mandatory for a scroll healing rogue?

Edit: of course there's more than heal scrolls - on my rogues I also use Fire Shield, Greater Heroism, Invisibility, (Greater) Restoration, Displacement, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Tenser's Transformation, Summon Monster IV (for Rainbow), Shadow Walk (also for Rainbow), (Greater) Teleport. The one thing all these scrolls have in common is this: they are buffs/curatives and thus require no DC. If a rogue wants to deal damage he uses an appropriate weapon plus aggro reduction to apply his SA damage, and even with +3 or +4 to the DC of a scroll or wand any attempts to use a crowd control wand or scroll is almost guaranteed to fail given the low base DC.

sephiroth1084
04-18-2013, 11:16 PM
I would have preferred to see Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree.

I would also really have liked to see more abilities in both the Assassin and Thief-Acrobat trees that rewarded you for being stealthy. I'd prefer not to have the trees gummed up with a bunch of Sneak: Get This abilities, but rather append some of the stuff in there with extra bonuses if you are sneaking. This would work fairly well with the activated attacks: they could increase the +[w] damage when sneaking, or tack on a debuff of some sort, or improve crit change/multiplier, or additional sneak attack damage.

I like the tier 5 ability, Measure the Foe, which does this, but I feel like it comes kind of late, and doesn't do enough.

bhgiant
04-18-2013, 11:22 PM
If I understand it correctly, we now need to have Wand and Scroll Heightening (increased wand/scroll DCs, which is COMPLETELY useless on any rogue I've played or seen played in the game) in order to take wand and scroll mastery, which is mandatory for a scroll healing rogue?

Edit: of course there's more than heal scrolls - on my rogues I also use Fire Shield, Greater Heroism, Invisibility, (Greater) Restoration, Displacement, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Tenser's Transformation, Summon Monster IV (for Rainbow), Shadow Walk (also for Rainbow), (Greater) Teleport. The one thing all these scrolls have in common is this: they are buffs/curatives and thus require no DC. If a rogue wants to deal damage he uses an appropriate weapon plus aggro reduction to apply his SA damage, and even with +3 or +4 to the DC of a scroll or wand any attempts to use a crowd control wand or scroll is almost guaranteed to fail given the low base DC.

Agreed. I'd be ok if they took out the wand DC from... everywhere. Making Wand and Scroll Mastery a T3 ability and requiring Wand Heightening to get to it kills it. They should move it to T2, and then keep Use Magical Device at T4 with Wand and Scroll Mastery as the requirement.

Qezuzu
04-18-2013, 11:23 PM
Alright, here is my suggestion for mechanic:


(core) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area attack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.

(tier 1) Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)

(tier 2) Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.

(tier 3) Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.

(tier 5) Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.

Scrap all of these, they suck.

Replace with:

(core) Bombardment (2 AP): You are able to add your DEX mod to the DC's of your alchemical grenades, and you have a chance for a grenade to return to you (based on DEX, I'm thinking straight 1:1 ratio e.g. 10 DEX mod means 10% chance to not expend a grenade). Furthermore, you can greatly increase the rate of fire of your grenades, and an even greater chance to have a grenade return to you (thinking double the chance of return, rate of fire would increase by 50% or something, 120s cooldown 20 sec duration).

(tier 2) Mass Production(1 AP): Grenades cost 20/40/60% less parts to make and do 10/20/30% more damage. Traps cost 10/20/30% less parts.

(tier 3) Improved Deployment (1 AP): Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instead of 50%, and the time it takes to deploy them is reduced by 30/60/90%.

(tier 4) Fireworks (1 AP): Your grenades have a chance to proc a second effect

-Fire: Target is engulfed in flames and takes 4d6/6d6/8d6 additional damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. Additional procs will reset the timer
-Acid: Target's fortification is lowered by 5/10/15% for 30 seconds
-Cold: Target is slowed by 10/20/30%
-Electric: Target's saves are reduced by 2/4/6
-Sonic: Target is stunned for 2/4/6 seconds
-Force: Target is knocked down for 2/4/6 seconds

(tier 5) Watch Your Step (1 AP): Multiplies the damage your mines do by 20/40/60% of your INT mod, and reduces their cooldown by 25/50/75%.Did no one want to comment on this? I thought it was pretty genius...

Truga
04-19-2013, 03:04 AM
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

Rogues are the trappers. I, for one, am glad I have access to not having to search and disarm for ages for a single trap.

khremlajn
04-19-2013, 04:21 AM
end game assassin point of view:

core and tier5 looks gr8. However,I dont really like the enhancements I have to pick to get to tier5.

SA is auto choice on each tier, rest:

Poison Strikes: too low dc to works. Shattermantle would be gr8 if it works more often... Waiting for vorpal and then waiting for enemy to roll 1 is just wrong... Also as spell penetration is not so needed right now, its useless.
Other poisons are bad too. Waiting for vorpal so something wont work is wrong. Ability dmg also wont work.

Shiv: like the idea. Can someone tell me how this threat reduction works? What does it mean that it lowers it by 100?

Stealthy: it should have something extra on rank 3. Ability to stay hidden even to enemies with ts? just a thought

Venomed blades: additional dmg is additional dmg. I dont like AP cost. higher ranks arent high enough improvement. Either increase dmg gain or reduce ap for higher ranks to 1

Bleed them out: yeah... no... just no...

damage boost: its good boost, nothing to add

critical dmg,to hit stuff: good as is

shadow dagger: this... really trouble me. Shadow dancer got something like this on tier1 and noone is using it. Now you move it to tier 3 and expect anyone to pick it? How to change it so will become more usable? As it is tier 3, change it to some aoe smoke that blinds enemies or some deception effect. Dc needs to be changed too.

execute: move to finish enemies during heroic lvls. At epics its a joke, specially since it got 30 cd. I cant imagine it beeing usable at epis at all

killer: cool ability while killing trash. I dont like it though. Hard to keep it up, specially if you are suposed to dps boss. Acrobat get 25% doublestrike that can keep up almost all the time with special attack(and they get it on lower tier). Killer can reach only 20%, not able to have it most of the time and is tier 4. It is also only doublestrike effect in assassin tree.

measure the foe: Noone will give you the time to 'charge' your assasinate. If your assasinate is not on cd, you sneak and use it within 1s. Rest of the time u dps. Otherwise you will be piking.
I like this idea though. Maybe remove those stacks and give +5 dc boost after 2s on rank3? This way it will become more usable.

Knife Specialization: Just wanted to say how much I like it: very much


few general thoughts:
If I look at acrobat from user staff point of view, I want to pick everything.
If I look at assassin from twf point of view, Im not even considering half of the abilities.
You want assassins to use kukris/daggers(love it). Then ofc we will be twf. Assassin tree is missing +1 to hit/dmg with kukri/dagger that other trees have. Since we are twf, maybe some bonus if we are using kukri/dagger in both hands - dmg, doublestrike, fortfication bypass etc

Thing is: give as such enhancements at tiers 1-4, that we wont have a feeling while reaching tier 5 that we are wasting AP.

Now I want to give some positive feedback:
I know that people in general complain when they find something they dislike, and are silent when something suits them. I like the changes, I like acrobat though I wont be using staff. I cant imagine playing melee rog without Improved Defensive Roll.


Finally I want to ask a question:
Someone told me that sneak dmg will be multiplied on criticals. I find this idea cool, but cant find it anywhere, so I suppose its not true?

sephiroth1084
04-19-2013, 04:32 AM
It would definitely be an improvement if the +X Hide/Move Silently enhancement added something to tier 3. Maybe a touch of Faster Sneaking? Or the Hide In Plain Sight ability? Or the ability to remain in stealth when opening doors/activating levers? Or a higher DC for Assassin abilities when sneaking? Or...?

ddobard1
04-19-2013, 04:34 AM
rogue enhancements seem nice.... I'll pick mechanic but thats my flavor

sephiroth1084
04-19-2013, 04:36 AM
Shiv: like the idea. Can someone tell me how this threat reduction works? What does it mean that it lowers it by 100?
As I understand it, threat is basically just a tally of your damage measured against that of everyone else. Whoever has the most, gets aggro. So if I hit a monster for 100 damage, and you hit it for 150, you should get aggro.

Now, incite bonuses from items, enhancements, and Intimidate tack on a multiplier to this, so if I have 50% Incite, and we both hit the monster for 100 damage, I'll gain the aggro with a virtual total of 150.

Threat reduction works in the same way. In this case, rather than applying a multiplier, the ability simply knocks a chunk off of your aggro total.

What this means, however, is that if you are dealing much more damage than anyone else, it won't help you.

khremlajn
04-19-2013, 04:48 AM
As I understand it, threat is basically just a tally of your damage measured against that of everyone else. Whoever has the most, gets aggro. So if I hit a monster for 100 damage, and you hit it for 150, you should get aggro.

Now, incite bonuses from items, enhancements, and Intimidate tack on a multiplier to this, so if I have 50% Incite, and we both hit the monster for 100 damage, I'll gain the aggro with a virtual total of 150.

Threat reduction works in the same way. In this case, rather than applying a multiplier, the ability simply knocks a chunk off of your aggro total.

What this means, however, is that if you are dealing much more damage than anyone else, it won't help you.

Then the use for shiv I see is: if your weapon produce aoe effect and it attract crowd agro, you can clear it.
Well... I guess im better off with diplomacy, but i understand not everyone can keep t high

nibel
04-19-2013, 05:51 AM
Agreed. I'd be ok if they took out the wand DC from... everywhere. Making Wand and Scroll Mastery a T3 ability and requiring Wand Heightening to get to it kills it. They should move it to T2, and then keep Use Magical Device at T4 with Wand and Scroll Mastery as the requirement.

I gave a suggestion on a bug report asking for Wand Heightening T3 to allow us to use full Int to determine wand DC (wis for cleric/fvs, cha for bards). So, at tier 1/2 it give a small boost, but on T3 it will be 10 + spell level + Int. Will not be an awesome DC, but might work better on Heroic and on epic normal.

Niflheimr
04-19-2013, 06:13 AM
The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely.

Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...

karl_k0ch
04-19-2013, 06:16 AM
Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...

TA offers Haste Boost and Subtle Backstabbing; something which should be interesting for any rogue who uses weapons.

Truga
04-19-2013, 06:30 AM
Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...

Because your horc strength rogue really needs to gain more damage right now. Jesus christ people, really? Some builds might not need 60+ STR now and this is bad, how? You won't really lose any damage, it's just dex people that will gain some. How exactly is that bad or pigeon holing or whatever phrase you people use now.

Currently, on live, you either get STR or you get called gimp. Indeed, that's not pigeon holing, but allowing people to do damage with either STR or DEX is? I'm not seeing the logic here.

And besides, STR is still stackable much higher than dex is (rage, primal screen, titan grip, barb past lives, etc), and you get *1.5 if you're using THF, which wasn't mentioned for dex at all, and it gives you tactical feat DCs. And you want more now, just because DEX builds might get another 5 damage per hit, and be only 20 damage per hit behind you? Really?

My ****** DEX rogue can push 40 STR and I only started with 14 and never put any level ups in it, and don't even have the best STR gear available, nor do I use any short-term buffs apart from tenser's.
At the same time, I have trouble hitting 50 DEX, and I started with 16 and put all my level ups into it, and am missing a grand total of two dex from max possible that's sustainable without short term buffs. And all I get for it is some AC which doesn't work in EE anyway, and some reflex save, which is neat at best, because I don't have to wear a superior parrying item a STR rogue might have to.

Boo ****ing hoo.

~Infatum
04-29-2013, 04:45 PM
I received an error when trying to bug a few things in game so I'm going to include them here with my feedback since I'm tired of trying to get it to work...

Bugs:
Staff specialization does not display its effects in the inventory screen, and my brief testing made it appear that it wasn't working at all.

Vault and Staff lunge currently share a cooldown timer, this may be by intent, but I don't really see why so I suspect it's a bug.

Stuff that appears to be missing:
Item defense
Movement speed bonus (Acrobat)
Cheat death


Negative Feedback:
Shadow Dodge seems really awful, other classes get dodge passives, we get to get dodge if we're willing to open ourselves up to getting crit into a pile of mush. I can't ever see spending points for that.

Cartwheel charge and Followthrough are both very lacking and feel more like traps than abilities. Maybe I'm wrong and a lot of people tumble all the time (Or more likely I just lag too much to appreciate it), but I've never seen it as a useful feature and more just a clunky mechanic that gets you killed while doing no damage. It feels like since release there has been this disconnect between the devs and the players where the devs think everyone is tumbling and dodging around, and the players are just taking ray spells/special attacks in the face and wishing that at least on that mechanic the devs had decided to go with pen and paper. If there's a secret to bad latency tumbling I'd love to hear it, it's been several years of negative level sound effects followed by me yelling at the monitor and re-contemplating if the awesome content of ddo is really worth its brand of arbitrary punch-you-in-the-face style difficulty.

Staff lunge is terrible, I had trouble hitting more than one character with it and the tool tip really made it sound like something awesome rather than a small hop forward with a tiny (if any) AoE. Making this actually lunge you a goodly distance and stop at your target would be pretty awesome, right now I'm definitely planning on skipping it.

Acrobat abilities are way too expensive. We pay double for the exact same staff passives Henshin Mystic gets (I'm hoping this is just a bug), and we have a pile of active abilities (Lunge, sweep, quick strike) with multiple tiers that cost 2 points a tier and require each other. Reduce the staff passives (other than specialization) to be in line with Henshin Mystic, remove the interdependence of the actives and either reduce the cost or average out the ranks somehow. Right now this entire tree is prohibitively costly which is especially sad since it's not very good, you'd get way more damage going assassin while also getting better utility/debuffs, it seems like someone forgot that quarterstaves are a terrible weapon choice for a class built around an innate damage proc (SA) and were somehow worried they were spoiling us with all this attention.

Right now it just feels like you're paying more and getting less, this is already a very "concept character" tree, it shouldn't pay through the nose just to be a flashy less effective rogue.

Positive Feedback:
Thank you so much for vault, it is everything I've ever wanted since first watching jealously as a monk abundant stepped.

Sweeping strikes seems pretty nice, I'm a little worried about the disconnect between a dex based tripper and a str based tripper. A passive that allowed us to apply dex instead of strength to any trip ability would solve that. Regardless, this is a nice ability although I need to take it for some more thorough testing at some point.

I really like the new enhancement system as a whole, it makes for some tough choices and interesting character builds. I'm excited to see what it looks like as you get closer to releasing it.

Suggestions:
I'd love to see acrobats have at least something that could make someone helpless. Ideally having quick strike make prone opponents helpless until they stand would be both thematic and effective while still difficult to pull off against many opponents and impossible against any that can't be knocked prone.

Give some passive ability that allows acrobats to treat prone opponents as no longer sneak attack immune and reduced in fortification, otherwise it feels like 12 points in assassin is a required choice at this point. I personally would have rather seen sneak attack immunity be removed from the game, we already have a fortification mechanic.

Add a passive movement speed bonus to the core ability cartwheel charge. It's currently a terrible tier compared to the rest of them, and giving it movement speed would make me seriously consider going full rogue.

Add cheat death to follow through. Follow through is a pretty lack luster capstone. In most people's eyes this wouldn't change that, but it would give cheat death a home. I'd say make it a short duration (Duration granted decreases dramatically with each death avoided until it no longer works at all) 100% reliable buff that you gain on a tumble, so when you die despite tumbling at least you can get back up afterwards.



Overall I do definitely like the flavor of the acrobat tree, I'd just like to either see it be more effective or cheaper so you can dip more into assassin to shore up its lack of overall effectiveness.

~SMDrake
04-29-2013, 06:26 PM
I received an error when trying to bug a few things in game so I'm going to include them here with my feedback since I'm tired of trying to get it to work...

Staff lunge is terrible, I had trouble hitting more than one character with it and the tool tip really made it sound like something awesome rather than a small hop forward with a tiny (if any) AoE. Making this actually lunge you a goodly distance and stop at your target would be pretty awesome, right now I'm definitely planning on skipping it.

Lunge does not move for you, you have to be moving as you lunge forward.

Hold your forward button when lunging and it will be different.

That said I still don't think the ability is worth taking.

~Tirbaalis
04-30-2013, 10:58 AM
Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

Good idea, it would fit perfectly with the acrobat theme.

Silverleafeon
04-30-2013, 08:19 PM
Its the bottom of the 9th, one out (alpha) and chicken little is two runs ahead.
There is a wizard on first base, and a sorcerer on second base.
The Devs are the home team, and time out has been called.

Will the Devs pull it off, or will they lose the game to chicken little?



Speaking as someone who has played every class and race the old fashion way,
I am distressed and upset at the current events playing out in this enhancement alpha.


You, the Devs, are about to implement a nerf to every class in the game except two.
That is a pretty strong charge, let's talk it over.


Archmage wizards probably need some more flexablity.
Other than that, the arcane powerhouses (Sorcerer and Wizard) almost always come out on top.

The enhancements for the melee is coming along, until one considers that melees exist in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
with other classes. When those classes suffer, the melee classes suffer.

Most melees have gotten to the point of realizing that sorcerers and wizards often don't care.
That is why we melees carry haste clickies, haste potions, and melee aclarity items.
That is why we melees carry permanent blur items.
We can get along if we have to without them.

But we melees have another Symbiosis, a strong greater one that is much more important.
If this group is weak, we melee are also weak.
It is the group of classes that can cast mass curative spells.

This group includes Bards, Druids, Clerics, and Favored Souls.
The games fate and destiny are interwoven with their destiny.

These four classes have some else in common.
All four of them currently only have tier two prestige classes.
Since three tier should exists, one can obviously concluded that each of these classes
should be increased in enhancement power by 50% during this enhancement update.

Bards also suffer as already needing upgrades in many forms.
They sit at the bottom of all the classes, needing much love.
I will not list in detail what should be changed as you the Devs already have my very
details notes on the subject documented for later access.

While some will say, the spellsinger looks kinda nice, I say you have a long way to go.
The bard needs a lot of work, you know what it is, do it.


Fifty percent is a lot of power addition.
Fear is the original sin.
Be bold, be creative, show us how smart you can be.

~Sergeant_Giggles
04-30-2013, 11:27 PM
<snip>

This is rogue feedback how?

sephiroth1084
05-03-2013, 07:58 PM
Then the use for shiv I see is: if your weapon produce aoe effect and it attract crowd agro, you can clear it.
Well... I guess im better off with diplomacy, but i understand not everyone can keep t highDiplomacy basically works the same way as this ability does, but (I think) it also comes with a short duration effect that removes aggro from you entirely. If it works like the opposite of intimidate, what happens is you click Diplo, push aggro away from you onto anyone else nearby while also reducing your aggro with the affected targets by X amount, and gain a threat reduction applied to your damage for a short duration. The first effect only lasts a few seconds, so if you still have more aggro built up than everyone around you, your enemies will start pounding on you again in a few seconds.

Shiv would give you a second source for aggro reduction (a third, really, if you also count Bluff), and something to stack with Diplomacy to ensure you either don't grab aggro, or can shed it when you do.

~HajutzeBG
05-05-2013, 10:12 AM
(posting in here because the build is mainly a rogue one)
I dropped the game an year ago (and my max lv is 18 sooo I didn't play it a lot back then TBH). So just asking. I know the EnhPass is probably coming in 2014, doesn't hurt to theorycraft on builds you know xD and it's pretty fun to do it ...

Given the current effects of the enhancements is something among the lines of (look below, short summary) worth it ?

12 rogue, 6 monk, 2 paladin, Human, dex based
I wanted to make a shuriken character who can fight with melee and do stuff (you know .. traps) and has a bit (no idea what is required on the lv20+ content) of survivability.

Human - 1 extra feat, +1 skill.
Paladin - obvious - the CHA to saves
Monk - 6 monk gives the 10k stars and 2 feats, the Ninja Spy line (Ninja training should give dex to dmg for shurikens, there are a couple enhancements, sneak attack goodies, Deadly exploits and shadow double look nice) AND the Shintao line with the defensive stance which as far as I can tell is a God bless for 2H characters (50 PRR and 5% dodge chance, I think while meleeing I can live with the extra threat gen)
Rogue - 12 rogue gives well the traps goodies, the Thief Acrobat looks REALLY nice - with all those clickies I think I wont need cleave and great cleave, not to mention one of those has the potential to knock down trash mobs, +15% attack speed with staves, some to-hit and damage with staves, immunity to most knock-downs and slippery stuff AND improved defensive roll.

Feats:
Rogue - Defensive Roll
Monk - Dodge (to unlock the dodge enh lines in both rogue and monk), 10k stars
General - Quickdraw, PointBlank Shot, Rapid Shot, Shuriken Expertise

Those are the feats I really need for the Shuriken part of the build, I have a lot of feat space left (1 monk, 1 human, 3 general). I was thinking of getting up to Great Cleave but with all the clickies it might be unneeded (and it opens the STR points needed to invest for them + 3 feats).

Might as well take Resilence or Precision but I'm not really sure how many stances I can use ... As far as I can tell the Defensive Strikes is a defensive one so I can use it with String of the Ninja (weapon stance) and I have left a combat stance and an offensive stance ? Anyway if I can use Resilence with Defensive Strikes .. why not ? +4 Reflex save = +4% chance to trigger the Defensive Roll.

With all that space I might as well take Toughness and Improved Critical, Power Critical (with a weapon focus). Not really sure it'll need the THF feat-lines.

=====================================
In summary the build will have
- Traps (d'oh xD)
- A decent ranged damage with the shurikens (I hope)
- Should be able to deal some damage with melee as well
- Like 20%+ dodge ? (3% from Dodge, 6% from monk levels, 3% shadow dodge, 3% acrobatic, 3% or so from an item, +5% defensive strikes ... sooo 23% dodge I'm sure it can go higher without mobility and spring attack)
- Some AC both from dex, wis and the enhancements on the way
- 50 PRR
- Not really sure how much but should have a killer reflex save (let's say 50 for the sake of the next line) (both from CHA and being heavy-DEX build)
- 50% chance to reduce the melee damage to 20% when below 50% hp.

Sooo with all that the char shouldn't like ... die from 1-2 blows xD. I hate the lack of self-healing but with the required 6 lvs of monk (for 10k stars) I can't go with artificer sooo what ... 11 levels of wizard for the reconstruct =/ ? Kind of locks down the options.

~Cisko
05-05-2013, 07:39 PM
For me, the whole point of doing all these changing is not just to update, its also to make other builds and classes more viable than what everybody does, yes, im talking about Assasin. Let say, the knockdown clickies from acrobat are really going to compete with the assasinates? As for me, i will still be playing acrobats, but please, give us all enough reason to really use staves other than look cool and an abundant step at top tier (which should cost just 1 AP and not 2 in my opinion, since its already expensive enough due being in Top tier).

Ive been playing a sort of dual weilding acrobat for years, and i always wanted most of the changes u have implemented on acrobat. But there is a little catch. If i was to take the most advantage i want from my pure rogue, there is no real reason to take all those new shinies you've worked so hard to implement, because without any doubt the best way to go is assasin, because as assasin i will still be able to be taking Kip Up along with Assasinate, if i spend action points wisely... which will be even easier to do if you consider your next move of making core ability enhancements cost 0 AP (which is great idea, thank you so much for that)...

Anyways...

My thoughts on Acrobats:
(Good things first! )

Acrobatic: i love it :) but its on tier one... and i see theres like too lil room to separate it in tiers... my idea is to only make the next points spent in it requiring certain amount of AP spent in the tree to simulate the alacrity bonus being aplied at lvl 6, 12 and 18 like it should be.... OR just remove the alacrity bonus from it and place it in the core section... please? (5% to be granted along with "Stick Fighting" at 5 AP spent; 10% along with "Kip up"; and the 15% at 40 points spent along with Vault in CORE section :D... oh, and place a 20% in the capstone along with that <3 )

Sly Flourish: looks good, but its not really worth it. Pure acrobat wouldnt take it cus AP are required higher in the tree, while an assasin will take it because its nice to take along with the necesary to reach haste boost.

Quick Strike: AMAZING! But if you were to encourage people to weild staves i would suggest you to increase the time this buffs last in a 10/15/20 secs progression ( but please dont touch the double strike progression? :D 25% at 3rd AP spent is good as it is)

Trip Focus: thank you :) . But its not worth it, unless you make it a +2/+4/+6 intead of how it is at the moment.

Sweeping Strikes: YES! :) thank you! but... like i said aboce, please, make it full rogue level DC... you know, people spend more time playing high level content than low level, so you would like us to keep using the skills you worked so hard to create and implement even at end game content, or else, we might not even use it in the mid level content (a lvl 12 dex rogue would have a 25 DC at most with that which would nt land on anything, specially hard or elite runs)

Shadow Dodge: I love the idea. But theres something i dont like. The dodge bonus should be higher and the Fortification penalty is too high to be usable. Please changethis and make a Dodge bonus of 5/10/15%, the dex bonus... i wish it was higher, like a +1/+3/+5 (c'mon! how many ways there is to increase Dexterity compared to Strenght :( ) , and the Fortification penalty leave it at a-20% at most... a -5/-10/-15 hopefully... dont forget its rogues we are talking about, not fighters, paladins or pale masters <3 . PS: its a lil bugged atm on Lama, spending 1 AP its giving +2 to dex instead of one... but u shud leave it like that so it ends up as a +2/+4/+6 to dex :D )

Staff Lunge: i like it! but animation seems too slow to be really usable DPS wise (hitting 2-3 targets in 2 secs wile i can just cleave and deal a LOT more dps than that :< ... i like it, dont get me wrong, but make the animation instant and hit a small arch in front of the character or just take it away.

Improved Glancing Blows: You know? nobody really cares about glancing blows proc. Get rid of it, or change/add to it glancing blow DAMAGE or else no one will take it cus its not worth it considering all the AP thats needed to spend to reach next tier.

Multiple Enhancement Selector: Strenght or Dex': I understand that compared to how it is on live right now its cheaper to take these on Lama, since taking both will cost just 4 and not 6 AP, but arent you taking into consideration all the AP and abilities that are new now that we will take along with the ones we HAVE to take to reach the 4th tier? Make (if not both) at least the first cost 1 AP because moving one to a lower tier seems impossible.

No Mercy: :| hehehe... thank you SO much

Improved Deffensive Roll: nice! i am definetly taking deffensive roll from now on <3

Vault: OMG YES!!!!!!! ive been wanting this so much for so long, ever since i read Morah's band description... and since i used to pole vault in my athlete days :P . But... it hurts me to see it so high at tier and costing so much... 2AP seems so expensive for acrobats... really. My suggestions are:
*lower the cost to 1 AP;
or
*make it an innate core ability at lvl 18 or 20, after spending 40 or 50 points in the tree... auto granted, sort of.

And speaking of Core Abilities, my thoughts are:

Stick Fighting: its good. Make it add a 5% staff alacrity, removing it from "Acrobatics"

Tumbler: Thank you :) i like this, but i still think that the tumble skill should add dodge or AC bonuses to acrobats... what about a 10% from total tumble skill to be added to dodge?

'Cartwheel Charge' & 'Followthrough' tumble bonuses: the only proble i find is that the higher your tumble score, the longer it takes the animation, also further it moves... i dont see real viability for it, since it seems to slow me down... My suggestion is the following: make certain combat feats (specially acrobat tree ones) trigger the bonus, like a 75% (max) for Cartwheel Charge and a 50% minimum for Followthrough when using combat feats (except stunnig fist for practical semantic reasons)

Cartwheel Charge: make it level 16 and place VAULT as a lvl 18 core ability. (Edit: oh, and i forgot to mention... make acrobat hurt enemies with this ability each time they tumble through them <3 )

Followthrough: you know? at capstone acrobats should the so wanted 20% staff alacrity... nad the knockdown effect on vorpal after tumbling? i like it, but it should be permanent in my opinion, of course, with the mandatory requirement of weilding a staff.

And now, the bad things... what i think we are missing:

* Our beloved 10% run speed,
* -4d6 from capstone, (i can live with that)
* dex/str since its so expensive to reach high tiers,
* and from what i can tell, Str acrobats gain nothing and lose dex mod to Sneak damage

Also, In general, ...
* the extra action boost
* extra movement speed

And the worse part, if you manage to take in consideration most or some of my suggestions you will be able to make acrobats just as viable as assasins, because the way things are right now, we will only end up having Assasins that are able to assasinate just as effectively along with being inmune to knock down (i did it, check the picture below)

http://i.imgur.com/8EmYCNb.jpg

and with points to spare! which will be like 14 total to spare once you make core abilities cost 0 AP.

..

So... yeah, thats it, cant think of anything else right now. That would be it, so, in general my main suggestion would be to block core abilities once the player has chose their main class tree... yeah... need a break, cant think anymore <3

Peace all <3

Dreppo
05-06-2013, 03:13 AM
without any doubt the best way to go is assasin, because as assasin i will still be able to be taking Kip Up along with Assasinate

Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.) The fact is any character will have enough AP to take one PrE all the way to tier 5 and then still make a sizeable tier 4 investment in a second PrE. Will it be assassin with a side of tempest? Acrobat with a side of henshin mystic? Battle engineer with a side of deepwood sniper? And so on. There are so many tantalizing options ahead of us. We've never been able to go so deep into two different PrE's before. The results will be more powerful builds than we have now, that's very clear already.

Wizza
05-06-2013, 04:07 AM
Where are the Extra Action boosts? Is it missing? Don't see them.

~Hexfax
05-06-2013, 05:34 AM
Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.)

I think one thing that you are ignoring is that INT isn't really needed for an Acrobat, so is a bit of a dumpstat for Acrobats. On the other hand, there's no stat requirement needed for the Kip Up perk and an Assassin or Mechanic can pick up the needed AP without dipping into the quarterstaff abilities.

This isn't to negate your point, since your point is true that dipping into other trees for their goodies. However, it is a bit disingenuous to say that an Acrobat will basically only be 1 DC behind an Assassin for Assassinate.

~no_name_displayed
05-06-2013, 06:16 AM
Some feedback towards the AP-Distribution for Assassins. Currently, It's commonly done to take most of the enhancements which increase damage, Haste Boost and Wand and Scroll Mastery. If I try to do this with the new enhancements, the following happens:

Getting Deadly Shadow needs 40 AP spent in the assassin tree and another 2 for the Capstone itself, i.e. 42 AP on the assassin tree.
Wand and Scroll Mastery is a tier 3 ability from the mechanic tree which requires 10 points spent in tree and costs 2 AP per tier, i.e. 16 AP on the mechanic tree.
Haste Boost is a tier 2 ability from the Acrobat tree which requires 5 points spent in tree and costs 2 AP per tier, i.e. 11 AP on the acrobat tree.

In sum, this leaves 80 - 42 - 16 - 11 = 11 AP on the racial tree. This amount of AP restricts yourself basically to racial abilities up to tier 2, e.g. only one tier of Halfling Sneak Attack enhancement can be chosen.

Additionally, the Assassin tree offers less sneak attack damage than the old enhancements: The extra SA die you get with Assassin I - III can be found at tier 1 to 3 of the tree, and tier 4 adds another +3.5 SA damage. But the sneak attack damage line (which offered +3 damage per tier, up to +12 damage) is gone.

It doesn't make me happy to realize that trying to rebuild what's pretty much standard nowadays doesn't work due to AP restrictions. However, if the APs invested in the racial tree would count as AP spent for any tree (for the matters of abilities, not core abilities), this would give an incentive to give more attention to the racial trees.

~Cisko
05-06-2013, 12:35 PM
Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.) The fact is any character will have enough AP to take one PrE all the way to tier 5 and then still make a sizeable tier 4 investment in a second PrE. Will it be assassin with a side of tempest? Acrobat with a side of henshin mystic? Battle engineer with a side of deepwood sniper? And so on. There are so many tantalizing options ahead of us. We've never been able to go so deep into two different PrE's before. The results will be more powerful builds than we have now, that's very clear already.

My point is that the Kip Up ability for an acrobat is just like undead traits is for a pale master, for example. Wether you like it or not, allowing an archmage to be able to turn undead too is not how pre's should work in my opinion. Hence my suggestion was that once the player has chosen their primari or main CLASS tree, all other CORE abilities from the same CLASS TREES should be greyed out or blocked from selection. Its my opinion.. its not about whos is stronger or not, who is better and worse... its about how prestige enhancements should work (in my opinion).

Heck, ive been playin acrobats for so long, i have 2 rogues and both are acrobats, and when people ask me why am i acrobat i always say because i enjoy the faster run speed and the (mostly) knockdown inmunity... but with this, as pre's are currently looking at in lamania, i wont have neither! thats my self'refferent argument.

Wizza
05-08-2013, 03:46 AM
Where are the Extra Action boosts? Is it missing? Don't see them.

Anyone?

ranthrock
06-02-2013, 09:40 AM
Moving the INT bonus to xbow attacks up to level 12 will break INT-based 6/6/8 rog/art/xxx repeater builds. Maybe this is the point?

Thoughts:
1) repeater builds are super fun to play up through about level 16, but at this point start losing out to Casters in terms of damage

2) repeater builds keep going on okay until epic levels, when melee characters really start to outshine then. There are no real good epic crossbow options nor are there epic destinies that help ranged toons as much as melee or caster toons.

3) I like the idea of having int-based rogues. It's fun to imagine my character as a quick-thinker using his wits to get the better of his enemies instead of brute force or speed.

4) The real beauty of the rogue mechanic is its synergy with artificer. One of the really beautiful things about DDO is that you can draw on so many different classes to put together some truly impressive builds. Forcing very deep splashes (12 levels instead of 6 or 2) to get the bonuses we want is going to give us fewer options, not more ones.

5) With regard to points 1 and 2, repeater builds are (like ranged) the build that falls off with epic levels instead of improving with them. After a few levels of dreadnought, my barely geared fighter does great in epics, my uber-geared 6/6/8 mech/arty/ranger looks pretty puny. We need to make sure that these builds don't disappear from the game due to an enhancement pass that kills off a prestige.

Ideas:
1) Rearrange the new mechanic enhancement line so that:

A) trapping bonuses are on the bottom along with xbow int bonus and proficiency

B) the bombs 'n' stuff parts are up at the top (When I think of rogue mechanic, I think of good guys disabling bombs instead of bad guys using them---bad guy rogues can go be dirty filthy assassins).

C) add in some additional bonuses for ranged damage (threat reduction, armor piercing, etc.)

Xorlandu
06-02-2013, 09:27 PM
Question is kind of out of nowhere but I was curious if the abilities in the acrobat tree that require a quarterstaff are usable/active in wolf form. On the live servers lightning mace from LD can be used in wolf form with a quarterstaff equiped. I'm wondering if the 15% attack speed while using quarterstaves would be active and are you able to use quick strike while in wolf form.

Diyon
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
Question is kind of out of nowhere but I was curious if the abilities in the acrobat tree that require a quarterstaff are usable/active in wolf form. On the live servers lightning mace from LD can be used in wolf form with a quarterstaff equiped. I'm wondering if the 15% attack speed while using quarterstaves would be active and are you able to use quick strike while in wolf form.

On live this currently isn't the case. I checked with devs all the way back into the MotU Beta: acrobat staff bonuses don't work in animal form.

Kik96
07-01-2013, 09:30 AM
I have a pure rogue-mechanic and a pure rogue-assassin. Now just looking at the new enahncement trees I won't be able to get either one to the capstone enhancement since I would now have to spend points in other rogue trees to get the enhancements they currently have. Or I would have to just say the heck with it and nerf them by taking just the enhancements in their prestige class tree only. I honestly think awareness, stealthy and faster sneaking should be in all three trees and haste boost should also be in the assassin tree. I think skills boost should also be a part of all three trees. Basically I think awareness, stealthy, faster sneaking and skills boost are really something a basic rogue should have and not be resticted to just certian prestige classes. I know under the current enhancement system my rogues all have search, spot, move silently, hide, listen, disable, open lock and faster sneaking regardless of the prestige class they will eventually be. I think these are all part of being your basic rogue.

Jay203
07-02-2013, 01:57 AM
Rogue Mechanic needs A LOT OF WORK
tanglefoot is too pathetic to warrant a slot in the core enhancement
int to xbow damage needs to be moved back down to rogue6 tier, the 50% more search/spot range needs to replace tanglefoot
expert trapper move to rogue12
add Master Trapper for Rogue18, give it no more crit fail on traps as well as rolling a 1 no longer auto fail against traps.
move the Wand/Scroll mastery down to tier 2
remove Wand/scroll DC mastery
put UMD in tier 3
change all the DC of the alchemical trap attacks to base 16/18/20 + Rogue Level + Int Mod
get rid of Disable Construct and change it to dominate construct

Sardonica
07-02-2013, 01:16 PM
Currently on live the mechanic prestige gives intelligence modifier to damage for crossbows AT LEVEL SIX. Many many people use this, myself included. It is extremely fun for TRing. Moving this feature out to level 12 will enrage enough players that they will leave.

Thank You.

Hajutze
07-02-2013, 05:22 PM
Basic idea:
At level 3 when you get the DEX to damage for Quarterstaff's the requirement for THF feats should change from STR to DEX.

Hajutze
07-03-2013, 07:27 AM
Ingame Elaborate Dodge gives max dodge bonus instead of + dodge%.

Carpone
07-03-2013, 07:09 PM
Love, love, love the Thief-Acrobat tree. I've been a rogue hater for many years, but this revamp has changed my mind. Well done devs!

EssenceofEvil
07-04-2013, 05:22 AM
I've been playing with the assassin tree as I plan on tring my barbarian into a rogue assassin.. I doubt the pass will be out by then but it lets me play with my options if it happens during her life as a assassin..

I love the dagger in the back enhancement... Any weapon finessed weapon.. Does this apply to unarmed? Dex monks would be doing lots of rogue splashes in the future if it does.. I just use my lvl4 vet statues and I've been playing with with at least the early enhancements.. Is venomed blades bugged? It feels like it borks my sneak attack. Like it doesn't even happen while turned on..99% of the time. I don't know if I'm just inexperienced sneak attacking but that needs fixed. I like the idea of shiv.. I guess it works if I'm in a party I can't find anyone to group with on lam lol so I can't figure out how effective that argo defusing ability is.

EssenceofEvil
07-04-2013, 03:17 PM
I love the dagger in the back enhancement... Any weapon finessed weapon.. Does this apply to unarmed?


No it does not.. just tested it.. :(

Hajutze
07-04-2013, 03:30 PM
No it does not.. just tested it.. :(

Might be a bug. The DEX to DMG for shuriken is not working as well, so it might not be WAI.

Arnhelm
07-04-2013, 07:22 PM
Please disconnect Wand DC's from Scroll Mastery. I like to have a little extra oomph when casting Cure Critical and Heal scrolls, but see no need to waste AP's taking offensive wand DC bonuses.

soloist12
07-06-2013, 06:30 PM
Please disconnect Wand DC's from Scroll Mastery. I like to have a little extra oomph when casting Cure Critical and Heal scrolls, but see no need to waste AP's taking offensive wand DC bonuses.

More importantly, axe the wand enhancement entirely.

Cack
07-07-2013, 03:36 PM
No it does not.. just tested it.. :(

Be nice to get a confirmation on wether this is a bug or not, meh.

Dylvish
07-12-2013, 02:53 PM
I think one thing that you are ignoring is that INT isn't really needed for an Acrobat, so is a bit of a dumpstat for Acrobats. On the other hand, there's no stat requirement needed for the Kip Up perk and an Assassin or Mechanic can pick up the needed AP without dipping into the quarterstaff abilities.

This isn't to negate your point, since your point is true that dipping into other trees for their goodies. However, it is a bit disingenuous to say that an Acrobat will basically only be 1 DC behind an Assassin for Assassinate.

Not sure I fully agree with this. Ive played Assassin (ok, 2 of them), an Acrobat, and a Mechanic (that I stopped playing at 14, just not my style). I did not dump Int on any of them. Granted, I took a 2 less in Acrobat, and 2 pts higher on Mech, but I still kept it decent on all of them because its still a rogue, and I like my skills! Being a couple of points behind on Assassinate I understand, and don't really find game breaking either way, but as a dump stat? Not for me. ;)

ComicRelief
07-12-2013, 04:44 PM
As it stands right now, if I want to make a mechanic-rogue, I see no ultra compelling reason why I should make a pure build. Since an artificer can conjure bolts, my inclination is to splash 1 level of arty just to gain that ability. Granted, I would be limited to +1 bolts, but have you seen the drop rate for bolts in the game? At least I could then conjure 1,000 bolts at a time (which take up only ONE inventory slot, per 1,000) and not have to worry about running out of ammo (which has happened to me on numerous occasions).

Granted, even though the level 5 core enhancement of the mechanic is called "Master Alchemist", 'conjuring' has never been in the rogue domain, per se. But, with a high enough UMD, they could use all sorts of 'conjuring' scrolls so would it really be that far fetched that at higher levels they could figure out how to conjure bolts? I mean, go ahead and make it a tier 4 or teir 5 tree enhancement, or make it part of the level 4 or level 5 core enhancement abilities - that would at least give me more incentive to make a pure build.

Either that, or allow me to carry stacks of 1,000 non-conjured bolts in my inventory, outside of my quivers.

I know - unlikely, but I can dream.
;)

JarinDearly
07-12-2013, 06:38 PM
As it stands right now, if I want to make a mechanic-rogue, I see no ultra compelling reason why I should make a pure build. Since an artificer can conjure bolts, my inclination is to splash 1 level of arty just to gain that ability. Granted, I would be limited to +1 bolts, but have you seen the drop rate for bolts in the game? At least I could then conjure 1,000 bolts at a time (which take up only ONE inventory slot, per 1,000) and not have to worry about running out of ammo (which has happened to me on numerous occasions).

Granted, even though the level 5 core enhancement of the mechanic is called "Master Alchemist", 'conjuring' has never been in the rogue domain, per se. But, with a high enough UMD, they could use all sorts of 'conjuring' scrolls so would it really be that far fetched that at higher levels they could figure out how to conjure bolts? I mean, go ahead and make it a tier 4 or teir 5 tree enhancement, or make it part of the level 4 or level 5 core enhancement abilities - that would at least give me more incentive to make a pure build.

Either that, or allow me to carry stacks of 1,000 non-conjured bolts in my inventory, outside of my quivers.

I know - unlikely, but I can dream.
;)


Ok, maybe this ties into something I've been thinking about that Soloist12 and Arhelm mentioned, too. For starters, the ammo thing would be easily fixed if Turbine would please, please, please go ahead and fix the Conjure Bolts scroll bug. While that forces one to carry a bunch of scrolls, the Mechanic Build is now geared towards an increased ability to make use of UMD effectively, and I for one wouldn't mind a half-elf Atri dilly being able to use the conjure bolts scrolls as well. To get more specific about the quote about, though, I'd have to say that Rogues are not arcane classes, and being able to have UMD as a class skill is one of the aspects that is supposed to be integral to the thief archetype. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but having a scroll or wand on hand to maybe try is part of being a rogue, apparently more specifically a Mechanic now. So, in disagreeing with the idea of Rogues having innate spell abilities, hopefully there's a solution available. If, you know, that 3, 4 year old bug with the C.B. scrolls could finally be fixed...

In addition to that, though, I do like how wracking a construct now also has some complimentary trap laying and grenade launching from the Alchemical world school of things. Nice to see the Alchemical no longer being the sole province of the Artificer.

That leads me to the next point, though, in that if there has to be a straight line requirement progression in the Mech tree, why can't Scroll Mastery be the first of the enhancements? The whole Wand heightening thing could be second (thus, third tier), though I'd prefer to make that even third in the line, above UMD, too. With the way the game gets played around here, Rogues still need a bit of help in the self-healing department, and as it stands right now, even Assassins and Acrobats will have to decide between spending 14 AP's in the Mechanic's tree to get the scrolls boost (and Skills boost) or fore-go the extra self-healing in hopes that each and every PUG they join has a patient healer or two to help them out. And then, gee, since they've already spent 14-some AP there, why not use 3 more and pull up the UMD. If the game were to use more offensive Enchantment wands, I'd appreciate the Wand Heightening option a little more, but then, only a small, small, teeny bit. So, yeah, please, whoever's reading this please get Wand Heightening out of the way of Scroll and Wand Mastery, maybe even the UMD enhancement, too. Pretty please?

Arnhelm
07-12-2013, 07:22 PM
Ok, need to look more closely at what's happening before I bug it. Mentioning it here because I've been dealing with health issues and might forget to follow up if more important things, like my health, come along.

In Thief-Acrobat tree, points don't seem to be adding up correctly while being applied, then get adjusted when the tree is saved. Noticed this today a couple of times on Lama, even reset tree to make sure. Consistently getting 2 extra points added to the total spent in tree, then that's adjusted down when the tree is saved.

...and PLEASE disconnect Wand Mastery from Scroll Mastery. :D

Thieves_Guild_Master
07-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Given that I have moaned about the state of Rogues for a fair while I have to say I quite like what is happening here.

Yes you need to play with all the trees (and can have some real fun with a Ranger splash) but I find that fits what I think about Thieves erm Rogues anyway.

But please, ditch those hopeless poisons.

RealKorike
07-15-2013, 09:35 AM
Ok. After testing this weekend (moved my capped rogue over to Lama Friday), I'd say this is a good start. The interface itself is well done, and I think, easy to use.

Enhancement Choices: It was fairly easy to build an Assassin with Mechanic extras. This is actually a bonus over the old system. Toss in just a tiny bit of acrobat (4 pts spent there) for flavor and to get an enhancement I wanted, and this worked well. It worked well enough for me to skip the poisons (which I find useless in their current setup and did not see much if any improvement in the new method) and spend points in the racial tree to get more weapon bonus'. I did not notice stacking issues with any of the bonus' and initially, they all seem to work thru 3 dungeons and the outdoor area.
I do not know how well these will work with splashes as I don't play that way. From a pure rogue standpoint, this new system appears to work well.

I'll play with it more this week and see if I can find anything to mention regarding the COST of each. Initially, I'd say they are close to good. But that is just an initial observation.

To prevent any pre-conceptions, I've not read previous posts in this thread, so I apologize for any duplication of effort.

Mandyb
07-15-2013, 07:52 PM
More importantly, axe the wand enhancement entirely.


completely agree I love my mechanic rogue but I don't think we need that there. Also where did cheat death go :(

Kayla93
07-16-2013, 04:09 AM
Well Im still waiting for scroll mastery to be fixed.
I mean the main advantage rogues have over others is evasion and their scroll healing and trap doing - in exchange their real dps is only while its sneak attack and they have lower survability - like hp, heal amp, ppr.
Dont take away one of our main advantages :/.

Systern
07-16-2013, 04:52 PM
The core enhancements are just weird.

Take Mechanic for example. All the Pale Trappers, 18/2 rogue builds out there that wanted some trapping ability and will be looking for the Tier 1 bonuses to DD/OL must buy Core 1. That 1 AP that every "mechanic", or splash that wants trapping ability needs, the CORE enhancement of the class is..... Great Crossbow Proficiency? An Exotic Weapon so bad that even artificers with their Pay-to-Play crossbow-centric design won't touch. Really? That's Mandatory? My Pale Trapper, My Bard, any character that thinks it's a good trade off to splash 2 rogue for evasion and traps NEEDS Great Crossbow Proficiency? That's CORE? (You keep using that word...)

The basic core of this prestige tree; that every enhancement, core and branch grows from; is Great Crossbow Proficiency.


Huh?

Lithic
07-18-2013, 08:01 AM
The wand DC enhancement is particularly annoying because it is so useless. Even with 3 wizard past lives and the enhancement maxed out the best DC offensive wand (Cure crit on undead, or PK on most others though its a dual save) would only be a DC of (10+spell level4 + 6 past lives + 3 enhancement) 23. Other than for nuking kobolds in waterworks (and only on normal or hard!), it's insultingly useless for a rogue.

If cost is the issue, then nix the wand DC enhancement and just make scroll mastery cost proportionately more. Or if there must be a prereq, make it a skill bonus with choices of Heal or Repair, at least that will get you a few more HP at a shrine. either of these would make me grumble less than having to take the wand DC enhancement.

2pleasegimmie
07-19-2013, 11:47 AM
get rid of the crappy ass Tanglefoot from rogue mechanic
...

also, disconnect wand DC, wand mastery, and UMD

Actually, all of those 10 DC abilities suck. They are resisted every time on epic normal for my Fighter/rogue (16/4). The 14 DC ones seem to work better.

I absolutely agree with your other suggestions. Prerequisiting wands boost as they have in so many trees is really stupid, and a huge waste of AP - that's a general complaint throughout this "enhancement pass", though - having to spend in "junk" abilities to get what you want/need.

soloist12
07-19-2013, 03:49 PM
Actually, all of those 10 DC abilities suck. They are resisted every time on epic normal for my Fighter/rogue (16/4). The 14 DC ones seem to work better.

I absolutely agree with your other suggestions. Prerequisiting wands boost as they have in so many trees is really stupid, and a huge waste of AP - that's a general complaint throughout this "enhancement pass", though - having to spend in "junk" abilities to get what you want/need.


They will see a lot less people with scroll mastery, it's a solid waste of points going up there. Unfortunately this will impact self-healing a bit, as APs are quite valuable now and people will hesitate to spend them "over there".

I'm not sure how wand dc mastery is still an enhancement - if they don't know how useless it really is, then maybe it's the same dev in charge of the expansion's loot as well.

You have giants with saves in the 60-70 range, where a completely DC spec'd wizard has difficulty, how is a DC 14 wand going to do anything - Like REALLY?

Lawl.

Trowa88
07-26-2013, 12:04 PM
Don't know why they can't make it an easier pill to swallow, maybe +1 caster level on wands and scrolls only per rank, not game breaking (and give artis a superior bonus ofc) but it'd add a bit of oomph to heal scrolls and make things like tenser's a bit more viable duration wise.

Has anyone figured out the numbers for bleed them out? I've tried it a few times but can't seem to figure out the damage die for it, or if it's even worth the points.

vengfarga
07-27-2013, 08:58 PM
Hmm,
Lotsa people complaining about the Mech stuff. And 70% seems to be that you can't shallow(ish) splash Rog anymore on an Arti or Wiz and take all the best bits of Mech. Well ... good.
I've had one end game Rog Mech or another available for the last 4 1/2 years. I've lost count of the number of times a fellow pugger has asked "why aren't you just playing an arti?".
Even worse, you join a group as a Rog Mech "what? you're a rogue and not an assassin? AND not halfling? GIMP!!!"
What has been interesting for me over the last few months has been EE GH. Suddenly, some groups want the traps in Cabal & others neutralised and the bonus loot... lootable.
So my gimp 'why-are-you-not-an-arti-or-assassin' Mech has found a home.
Most of the 'DOOooOOooM'tm here seems to be that it's gonna get harder to splash a coupla levels on a Wiz or half a dozen on an Arti and still be the equal of a Mech at their class speciality. To me that's just better balance.
Now, I don't actually like a lot of the new Mech stuff. But I will defend absolutely their right to have it!

Kayla93
07-28-2013, 07:52 PM
Hmm,
Lotsa people complaining about the Mech stuff. And 70% seems to be that you can't shallow(ish) splash Rog anymore on an Arti or Wiz and take all the best bits of Mech. Well ... good.

I agree its good.
But most ppl complain about scroll mastery - I mean I love these enhancements. Im a pure rogue and I cant wait till they hit - theyre lovely and to me the best ones I saw in alpha - no OP but reasonal changes, making things usable in EE with effort and good gear.
I love the skills that gives you + to DC while being sneaked.

BUT - while I agree with you that trees are mostly well done, and its good that ppl cant splash 2lvls of rogue and take out the best - I dont like the fact that I on pure rogue cant get scroll mastery without sacrificing a lot dps and taking trashy skills. This is not good.
If u devs want to make it rogue only - then good. Move it to tier 1 with pre-req to be e.g. min 6 lvls of rogue. Because Not only it is a little high - taking some wand useless things is not fun. I can live with having to put 10 points into mechanic tree - I will use it on DD/Search/Open Lock faster doing and + to skills. But forcing us to put in this wandy thing... :P Bery funny. We laughed. Now give us real option :D.


I find rogue the best done because its the only class that right now Id love to take 90% of enhancements and cant decide what to take or what to sacrifice :) Its good.
On my fvs on other hand I love AoV tree but has no real other choice.
On my monk even worse - I just dont like most of these so I ended up taking whatever.

bloodnose13
07-29-2013, 06:32 AM
i very much like the new elements of all rogue trees (as in comparison to current live one), one thing i dont realy like and seems out of place is shadow dagger from assasin tree, it seems like its a shadowdancer destiny thing and not a regular rogue thing, especialy that it seems mostly magical, what i would like to see instead of it is a, ranged assasinate, that requires a thrown dagger in hand, with much longer cooldown than regular assasinate, so its not overused, but usefull whne there is some hard to reach archer or caster that needs to be gone.

Jay203
07-30-2013, 11:19 PM
I agree its good.
But most ppl complain about scroll mastery - I mean I love these enhancements. Im a pure rogue and I cant wait till they hit - theyre lovely and to me the best ones I saw in alpha - no OP but reasonal changes, making things usable in EE with effort and good gear.
I love the skills that gives you + to DC while being sneaked.

BUT - while I agree with you that trees are mostly well done, and its good that ppl cant splash 2lvls of rogue and take out the best - I dont like the fact that I on pure rogue cant get scroll mastery without sacrificing a lot dps and taking trashy skills. This is not good.
If u devs want to make it rogue only - then good. Move it to tier 1 with pre-req to be e.g. min 6 lvls of rogue. Because Not only it is a little high - taking some wand useless things is not fun. I can live with having to put 10 points into mechanic tree - I will use it on DD/Search/Open Lock faster doing and + to skills. But forcing us to put in this wandy thing... :P Bery funny. We laughed. Now give us real option :D.


I find rogue the best done because its the only class that right now Id love to take 90% of enhancements and cant decide what to take or what to sacrifice :) Its good.
On my fvs on other hand I love AoV tree but has no real other choice.
On my monk even worse - I just dont like most of these so I ended up taking whatever.

making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)

Kayla93
07-31-2013, 05:05 AM
making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)

Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin :).
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

oradafu
07-31-2013, 05:21 AM
making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)



Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin :).
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

I think this may actually be a case of the Devs listening to players (at least prior to the new enhancement changes) about giving away too many goodies with a minor splash of rogue. One of the complaints that is usually brought up over the years is that a wiz18/rog2 can do everything or better than a pure rogue. This combined with Artificers splashing Rogue negates the spells Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage. This maybe one of the few times that the Devs have protected a Prestige from a minor splash by moving an useful ability up to these builds, especially since splashing two levels of any class currently doesn't hurt any classes since the capstones stink.

With all that said, level 12 is way too high. Sticking it back down to level 6 should be fine, because if a Wizard or Arti is splashing that many levels, they are committed to doing a less "easy to make" powerful build.

Jay203
07-31-2013, 08:06 PM
it's not like we're asking for the mechanic int mod to xbow damage to stack with insightful
if that's the case, i'm fine with it being at lvl 12, but it isn't so bring it back down

vengfarga
08-01-2013, 06:58 AM
What? What? What? You mean you now ACTUALLY have to be a Rogue to get the best bit out of Mechanic? However will that work?

/wipes 'splash' off utility vest whilst disabling trap from inside the trap. ;p

Kayla93
08-01-2013, 02:34 PM
I think this may actually be a case of the Devs listening to players (at least prior to the new enhancement changes) about giving away too many goodies with a minor splash of rogue. One of the complaints that is usually brought up over the years is that a wiz18/rog2 can do everything or better than a pure rogue. This combined with Artificers splashing Rogue negates the spells Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage. This maybe one of the few times that the Devs have protected a Prestige from a minor splash by moving an useful ability up to these builds, especially since splashing two levels of any class currently doesn't hurt any classes since the capstones stink.

With all that said, level 12 is way too high. Sticking it back down to level 6 should be fine, because if a Wizard or Arti is splashing that many levels, they are committed to doing a less "easy to make" powerful build.

Yeah thats also the problem. BUT:
1) If devs put it higher in the tree - then dex/int rogues are scewed for many low lvls - and it shouldnt be that way.
2) If they put it all like in assassin/acrobat tree then lvl 2 splashed are gaining too much.
Them aybe put it as lvl 6 ability? 6 lvls is deep enough splash.
Hard to make up something that will not screw low lvl pure rogues but wont make splashes OP.

SiliconShadow
08-05-2013, 05:57 AM
I am having a problem with my 12 Ranger / 6 Rogue / 2 Fighter build with this update.

I built him for a str based over sized twf rogue with as much off hand proc as I could get, great DPS on live 110~140 on the first number and about 50 sneak attack damage great stuff.

But I can no longer take mechanic like I can on live, so my switching from a many shot long bow to a light repeater is stuffed at the moment, is there a new pre-requisite I missed?

Apart from that if I do go full DPS lines Tempest/Assassin/Kensei I net 2d6 more sneak attack +9 seeker (18 seeker total including gear!) and +10 base damage with 5% more double strike and from 16% dodge before up to capped 23% to armour. This is insane and I ripped through mobs even on epic elite.

But I lost 5 Disable device in this change, going to have to use the utility vest or pick up some better disabling bracers (+17 currently) and an int tome/+8 int item to make up for it.

Pure rogue assassins still have a far superior sneak attack and assassinate, but I think this opens up for larger splash flavour builds like mine. Can still disable all the traps in-game just have to balance it a bit more.

+Loads of DPS -Skills but this can be made up with items (Currently use no int item and a +17 disable device item for 60 disable device unbuffed on lammania, 65 on live)

Jay203
08-06-2013, 09:31 AM
What? What? What? You mean you now ACTUALLY have to be a Rogue to get the best bit out of Mechanic? However will that work?

/wipes 'splash' off utility vest whilst disabling trap from inside the trap. ;p

... you've no idea what you're talking about

Wizza
08-06-2013, 03:19 PM
EDIT: My bad

And you better give us another +Assassinate DC Dager (or Kukri if you implement my above suggestion). My Epic Midnight greetings is FRIGGIN OLD AND USELESS.

oradafu
08-06-2013, 03:43 PM
I just don't understand why the Assassin Tier 5 ability gives +1 Critical Threat Range ONLY to daggers and not kukris.

You are basically forcing us with one type of weapon FOREVER. This should be Daggers AND Kukris, like the whole tree.

And you better give us another +Assassinate DC Dager (or Kukri if you implement my above suggestion). My Epic Midnight greetings is FRIGGIN OLD AND USELESS.


My guess for this would be so that Daggers are equal to Kurkis at least via the Crit Range. Since Kurkis have a 18-20/x2 and Daggers have a 19-20/x2, giving the bonus to Daggers would make them equal. By doing this, the Devs are not tilting the balance to a Slashing Assassin over a Piercing Rogue.

With that all said, there needs to be more items that increase Assassinate DC. And the first one needs to be a Dagger since the Kurki is already covered.

Wizza
08-06-2013, 04:06 PM
My guess for this would be so that Daggers are equal to Kurkis at least via the Crit Range. Since Kurkis have a 18-20/x2 and Daggers have a 19-20/x2, giving the bonus to Daggers would make them equal. By doing this, the Devs are not tilting the balance to a Slashing Assassin over a Piercing Rogue.

With that all said, there needs to be more items that increase Assassinate DC. And the first one needs to be a Dagger since the Kurki is already covered.

This makes sense. They will both have 18-20/x3. I guess what they are doing with this is the opposite of what I thought they were doing.

Actually I would like +Assassinate DC on an Item. Like every single other Tactic or Spell focus or anything in game.

Dreppo
08-06-2013, 04:43 PM
Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin :).
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

There's a fundamental difference between mechanic INT to damage and the acrobat/assassins DEX to damage, which makes the mechanic INT to damage much more powerful and justifies it being at a higher level.

The acrobat/assassin DEX to damage lets you use DEX to damage instead of STR. This is just giving you the flexibility to go one of two directions with your build (STR _or_ DEX). There's always some stat that gets used for damage.

The mechanic INT to damage is a straight bonus to damage -- it adds your INT bonus to damage. Remember that crossbows don't normally use any stat for damage. That equates to a major boost to crossbow damage, not merely flexibility. This is surely one of the most powerful abilities mechanics get (I would argue the most powerful -- what other mechanic ability would you say is better?). Therefore it makes sense to me that this ability shouldn't be available with a 1-3 level rogue splash.

Jay203
08-06-2013, 09:09 PM
There's a fundamental difference between mechanic INT to damage and the acrobat/assassins DEX to damage, which makes the mechanic INT to damage much more powerful and justifies it being at a higher level.

The acrobat/assassin DEX to damage lets you use DEX to damage instead of STR. This is just giving you the flexibility to go one of two directions with your build (STR _or_ DEX). There's always some stat that gets used for damage.

The mechanic INT to damage is a straight bonus to damage -- it adds your INT bonus to damage. Remember that crossbows don't normally use any stat for damage. That equates to a major boost to crossbow damage, not merely flexibility. This is surely one of the most powerful abilities mechanics get (I would argue the most powerful -- what other mechanic ability would you say is better?). Therefore it makes sense to me that this ability shouldn't be available with a 1-3 level rogue splash.

first of all, the fact that the only thing good about mechanic is that it gives Int mod to damage is a huge problem to begin with
secondly, it never "only took a splash of rogue" to acquire it, 6 levels is a pretty heavy investment in class levels, it also takes much investment into int in order to gain a large benefit from it, aside from the investment into Dex in order to hit stuff... while both acrobat and assassin allows you to invest into a single stat for both to hit and damage, with 3 lvls of rogue splash... as opposed to mechanic's 12 levels of heavy investment

UurlockYgmeov
08-07-2013, 12:05 PM
love it - but should rather be a class feature rather than an enhancement.

so as you increase in level as a rogue you should gain faster sneaking (up to and including 100% normal movement speed (permanent sneaking) at level 20)

Should not be allowed any other way.

Wipey
08-07-2013, 12:30 PM
So, you rogue folks, how high Assasinate are you able to get ?
64 DC on fresh 32 point toon copied to Lama ( human, Shadowdancer with eMG, no Yugo or rare pots/buffs, 16 or 17 starting int+5 tome ).

Wizza
08-07-2013, 12:33 PM
So, you rogue folks, how high Assasinate are you able to get ?
64 DC on fresh 32 point toon copied to Lama ( human, Shadowdancer with eMG, no Yugo or rare pots/buffs, 16 or 17 starting int+5 tome ).

Is this WITH or WITHOUT the Tier 5 Assassinate DC?

I can't remember exactly my DC but I should be able to get to 60 fairly easily with the buff from the Assassin tree.

Given the +11 Int item I will be able to reach 62, more or less.

bloodnose13
08-07-2013, 04:30 PM
love it - but should rather be a class feature rather than an enhancement.

so as you increase in level as a rogue you should gain faster sneaking (up to and including 100% normal movement speed (permanent sneaking) at level 20)

Should not be allowed any other way.

so you mean something like monks get for running speed, just only for sneaking?

that would be nice, since assasins are supposed to use sneak more than any other rogue, it would be very convenient.

Dreppo
08-08-2013, 03:34 AM
secondly, it never "only took a splash of rogue" to acquire it

I was responding to Kayla93's statement "But if those 2 [acrobat, assassion] get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too." If mechanic got this ability at core 1-2, then that would be 1-3 rogue levels (core 1 = level 1 rogue, core 2 = level 3 rogue). I think the required rogue level for mechanic's INT to damage is fine as it is now on Lam and shouldn't be lowered.

Wipey
08-08-2013, 05:43 AM
Is this WITH or WITHOUT the Tier 5 Assassinate DC?

Most likely with that +5 buff when sneaking, Not really a rogue person just wanted to check new stuff and surprised with ~ 65 DCs.

Jay203
08-08-2013, 09:00 AM
I was responding to Kayla93's statement "But if those 2 [acrobat, assassion] get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too." If mechanic got this ability at core 1-2, then that would be 1-3 rogue levels (core 1 = level 1 rogue, core 2 = level 3 rogue). I think the required rogue level for mechanic's INT to damage is fine as it is now on Lam and shouldn't be lowered.

no, it's not fine as it is in Lamania
pushing it all the way back to rogue 12 is just ridiculous and uncalled for
if it stacks with insightful damage, then requiring 12 rogue levels might be justified
however, seeing how on live right now it requires rogue 6, on top of that Mechanic 1 provided more benefits than just int mod to xbow damage; it needs to be brought down to rogue 6 core and improve the other cores for mechanic ('cuase atm most of the SUCK, big time)
or they should move the dex to damage for assassins and acrobats up to lvl 12 as well.

UurlockYgmeov
08-09-2013, 05:20 PM
so you mean something like monks get for running speed, just only for sneaking?

that would be nice, since assasins are supposed to use sneak more than any other rogue, it would be very convenient.

Yes.

hit_fido
08-09-2013, 07:02 PM
Is this old news?

I do not like this change.

Lauf
08-10-2013, 12:50 PM
I was trying to build an assassin, and to my surprise could not find an equivalent to the melee threat reductions as I know them.
later I discovered they still exist, but are in the 2nd tier of the acrobat tree, namely Subtlety.

this leads me to what I would assume is an obvious question, why is threat reduction part of the acrobat tree and not the assassin's?

aside from the illogical placing, this also poses difficulty for me in incorporating it into several builds I had in mind, especially because it is a tier 2 and requires a noticeable AP investment to unlock. making its illogical placement even more painful.

do give it a 2nd thought, please.

oradafu
08-10-2013, 12:59 PM
I was trying to build an assassin, and to my surprise could not find an equivalent to the melee threat reductions as I know them.
later I discovered they still exist, but are in the 2nd tier of the acrobat tree, namely Subtlety.

this leads me to what I would assume is an obvious question, why is threat reduction part of the acrobat tree and not the assassin's?

aside from the illogical placing, this also poses difficulty for me in incorporating it into several builds I had in mind, especially because it is a tier 2 and requires a noticeable AP investment to unlock. making its illogical placement even more painful.

do give it a 2nd thought, please.

To get Subtlety, it's not that big of an investment. It's 2 levels of Rogue and 5 AP to access it it, plus the AP for Subtlety. I'd suggest that buying Faster Sneaking (if you're into the Assassin thing) and probably a few ranks in Sly Flourish and you're problems solved.

Lauf
08-10-2013, 07:21 PM
To get Subtlety, it's not that big of an investment. It's 2 levels of Rogue and 5 AP to access it it, plus the AP for Subtlety. I'd suggest that buying Faster Sneaking (if you're into the Assassin thing) and probably a few ranks in Sly Flourish and you're problems solved.

first of all thank you for your advice.

however, the reason I posted in this thread was not so much for a solution for a specific build, but rather to point out a flaw in the placement of an enhancement, which I believe should be associated with the assassin tree and not the acrobat. but since you've been kind enough to offer advice, I should note that I enjoy heavily multiclassed builds, and sadly my would be rogue splashes are spread fairly thin, and can not afford an extra 5 AP on top of the actual cost of the enhancement; and to be honest, they will not benefit from faster sneaking either, even if I had the AP to burn.

but back to the actual subject - I have posted here because I see no reason behind or for subtlety being in the acrobat tree over the assassin's.
to make my case you need only look at the assassin prestige pre-requisites today, where you are forced to take up subtlety if you want to be an assassin. and that, to me at least, makes sense. you're an assassin, you get to do a lot more sneak attack damage, aggro reduction seems to be obligatory.

MalarKan
08-12-2013, 03:16 PM
From Acrobat tree, how it was back when enhancements were Alpha in June:

"Tier 4:

Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and reduces damage to 40/30/20% when successful."

And this is how i saw it yesterday in Lamania:

"Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health."

The damage reduction was reason enough to resurrect "Defensive Roll" and make rogues take that feat, and i was so excited that i was really going to take that feat ... but since i loged on Lamania yesterday and noticed how you got rid of the damage reduction i guess im less excited about it... disapointed even lol...

Also, "Shadow dodge" is still extremely painful and not worth taking (+3 dex and +2% dodge for -30% fort??? thats excessive)

Still no 20% staff alacrity, and acrobat fast movement is still missing... completely gone... when it was Kip-up and fast movement what gave Acrobats enough reason to be acrobats... im stil disapointed of those not being as core abilities... and i still think that we should only access to one tree's core abilities... not really excited of full lich/archmages or Assasins able to take kip-up... or at least just let player go over 3 core abilities in only 1 prestige tree per class

..

Hajutze
08-12-2013, 03:20 PM
Wait wait wait, they got rid of the damage reduction of Def Roll ? There goes my reason for playing DDO again ... off I go for the next 2 years.

MalarKan
08-12-2013, 03:30 PM
Wait wait wait, they got rid of the damage reduction of Def Roll ? There goes my reason for playing DDO again ... off I go for the next 2 years.

lol

just think of all those builds with just 13 rogue levels, they only take Opportunist and Improved evasion... making Defensive roll actually useful opens another little window for builds versatility... which is the whole point with this enhancements pass thing. Probably im just the only one that considered taking defensive roll ... i woudl definetly consider a chance of reducing to 20% the damage of an epic elite mob...but meh, i guess we wont need to consider that idea anymore

Steelstar
08-12-2013, 03:30 PM
The damage reduction was reason enough to resurrect "Defensive Roll" and make rogues take that feat, and i was so excited that i was really going to take that feat ... but since i loged on Lamania yesterday and noticed how you got rid of the damage reduction i guess im less excited about it... disapointed even lol...


Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

MalarKan
08-12-2013, 03:37 PM
Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

i wish there wouldnt have been the necesity of completely removing it. Truly unfortunate indeed :(

Thanks for a quick response :)

soloist12
08-12-2013, 04:01 PM
Interestingly enough, the new subtlety is not a toggle, it's -40% threat permanently passive.

oradafu
08-12-2013, 04:25 PM
Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.

Then to boot, the Devs discourage pure builds by making weak capstones. They certainly aren't the "equal to evasion". And they are alot further away from the multiple options when multiclasses have 6 trees to work with and the other goodies for dipping into more than one class.

The Devs need to take time and look at how the nerfing hurts Pure classes when they see something overpowered by multiclassing. Boosting to Core Abilities and Capstones is one way, but the Devs have gone out of their way to make both of those weaker than previously and situational. Core Abilities and Capstones shouldn't be situational. Especially when enhancements keep getting weakened because of multiclassing.

Hajutze
08-13-2013, 03:28 AM
So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.


actually 15% and 5% are way too much ... especially 5% means that you'll be getting 4 times less damage than 20%.

Steelstar
08-13-2013, 05:31 AM
(let me guess, multiclass, right?)

The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

Hajutze
08-13-2013, 05:58 AM
The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

I honestly see no way for a pure rogue to achieve 100 reflex save (and without that the defensive roll is highly luck dependent)

oradafu
08-13-2013, 07:00 AM
actually 15% and 5% are way too much ... especially 5% means that you'll be getting 4 times less damage than 20%.

Poorly phrased, I admit but I'm sure you understood that I was talking about increasing the amount of damage that the player received without removing the damage reduction completely.

oradafu
08-13-2013, 07:09 AM
The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

Are then going to remove the Fort penalty for Shadow Dodge? It seemed to me the Damage Reduction in Defensive Roll would help counteract the -30% Fort for that ability. Removing one completely while keeping the other seems a bit harsh.

Hajutze
08-13-2013, 07:15 AM
Poorly phrased, I admit but I'm sure you understood that I was talking about increasing the amount of damage that the player received without removing the damage reduction completely.

Oh yeah sorry, didn't mean to be rude.

I am all for, for example:
rank 1 - same (50% reduction)
rank 2 - 55% (45% by their numbers, instead of 30%)
rank 3 - 60% (40% by their numbers instead of 20%)

Qezuzu
08-13-2013, 07:35 AM
So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.

Then to boot, the Devs discourage pure builds by making weak capstones. They certainly aren't the "equal to evasion". And they are alot further away from the multiple options when multiclasses have 6 trees to work with and the other goodies for dipping into more than one class.

The Devs need to take time and look at how the nerfing hurts Pure classes when they see something overpowered by multiclassing. Boosting to Core Abilities and Capstones is one way, but the Devs have gone out of their way to make both of those weaker than previously and situational. Core Abilities and Capstones shouldn't be situational. Especially when enhancements keep getting weakened because of multiclassing.

I know that I can get my Rogue to 100 PRR, which is 40% damage reduction (60% taken). 80% damage reduction from Tier 3 would be .6 * .2, or only taking 12% of damage (e.g. a hit that does 400 damage would only do 48). This is before other defenses, like DR, AC, Conceal, Incorporeal, etc.

It was very overpowered, but now they've nerfed it back into uselessness.

MalarKan
08-13-2013, 07:45 AM
The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

hummm i thought that a rogue monk with earth stance would be getting the said nearly damage invulnerability...


i just think that it would have been better off by just leave as it was and making it NOT stack with PRR...

OR... change the feat itself it to a PRR bonus with a reflex save chance for non-AoE spells... making the PRR bonus high enough to not suit "overpowered standards" and depending on that it would stack or not with the character's PRR... something like:

Defensive Roll: When at low health, occasionally rogues can narrowly escape brushes with death. If you are at below 20% of your hitpoint maximum, each time you are struck with an attack there is a percentage chance equal to your Reflex save that the attack does half main damage (50% dmg thats arround 150 PRR), and its special effects are negated (as if you were blocking).

Improved Defensive Roll: (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) - Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and grants 200/250/300 PRR when successful. (in that case, the PRR bonuses shouldnt stack... and im just making up numbers by the way, i just know that 140 prr is a 49,08% reduction and 150 is 50,61%)

Ah well... cheers all ^^

PS: any chance you would look into increasing Shadow Dodge's bonuses? or decreasing the fort penalty... or fusing Improved defensive roll with Shadow Dodge :D hehe... Peace

Deathdefy
08-15-2013, 11:06 AM
Thunderstone still has a DC of 0 and the dojo kobolds are consistently saving 95% of the time.

Have bugged it, but thought yelling about it here might help too. Seems like a really fun skill potentially, but useless at the moment.

Sardonica
08-15-2013, 03:48 PM
Targeting Sights

Requires Tanglefoot (Rank 1)
Requires Rogue Level 6

You can now use your intelligence modifier for damage with modifier with all crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows.


This is essentially an improved version of the Mechanic I prestige. Thank you!

arcattaii
08-15-2013, 08:30 PM
I picked "Killer" enhancement for my mechanic, but it seems bugged. When I kill a mob I get a stack of Killer buff, but when I check DoubleShot chance on character panel, it doesn't change at all.

Ironclans_evil_twin
08-16-2013, 07:57 PM
Anyone tell me what Vault's cooldown is and or what it uses to limit usage? (Abundant has Ki, Wings use SP, I'm assuming it uses action boosts or is just a really really long cool down, making it far less cool like the extremely disappointing Shadar Kai jaunt. 30 seconds... Yawn) Also if it does have a long cool down does it share the same one as Jaunt?

Also anyone know if Assasin Knife training raised the crit multiplier of THROWING daggers or just regular daggers?

MalarKan
08-17-2013, 08:51 AM
Anyone tell me what Vault's cooldown is and or what it uses to limit usage? (Abundant has Ki, Wings use SP, I'm assuming it uses action boosts or is just a really really long cool down, making it far less cool like the extremely disappointing Shadar Kai jaunt. 30 seconds... Yawn) Also if it does have a long cool down does it share the same one as Jaunt?

IIRC , its a 12 sec cooldown its a clickie, nothing more which is awesome, so it doesnt use up any boost or anything, its just a 12 sec clickie .... enjoy! :)

and about sharing the cooldown with jaunt, ive no idea, i only tested the races i was really gonna play

Ironclans_evil_twin
08-17-2013, 02:14 PM
IIRC , its a 12 sec cooldown its a clickie, nothing more which is awesome, so it doesnt use up any boost or anything, its just a 12 sec clickie .... enjoy! :)

and about sharing the cooldown with jaunt, ive no idea, i only tested the races i was really gonna play

Cool much more interesting...

thegreatneil
08-17-2013, 04:00 PM
Anyone tell me what Vault's cooldown is and or what it uses to limit usage? (Abundant has Ki, Wings use SP, I'm assuming it uses action boosts or is just a really really long cool down, making it far less cool like the extremely disappointing Shadar Kai jaunt. 30 seconds... Yawn) Also if it does have a long cool down does it share the same one as Jaunt?

Also anyone know if Assasin Knife training raised the crit multiplier of THROWING daggers or just regular daggers?

Last I tested Vault shared a cool down with abundant step. ( I know right?)