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Taojeff
04-15-2013, 09:52 AM
I keep seeing people asking for the best abilities low in the trees. I guess playing a game definitely does not give people insight in how to design one.

Seriously people, there is a reason why the best abilities are at the top and require investment. Think about it.

Kayla93
04-15-2013, 09:56 AM
Thats not it... Well... maye with some players it is a case but...
Im not asking for top tier abilities to be low in trees. Nope.
BUT - I ask to not need to spend ponts on useless things to get usefull ones.
Like in halfling tree - to get dodge and max dodge cap extended I need to take "ac while tumbling" thing. Really? Its not usefull at all and not really connected.
Also in halfling - to take + to saves I need to take dex. I dont like being forced into taking sth I dont want to.
Id prefer it to just be "X points spend in tree prereq" so I could spend them on sth I want.
This and Ill be good.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 09:59 AM
Thats not it... Well... maye with some players it is a case but...
Im not asking for top tier abilities to be low in trees. Nope.
BUT - I ask to not need to spend ponts on useless things to get usefull ones.
Like in halfling tree - to get dodge and max dodge cap extended I need to take "ac while tumbling" thing. Really? Its not usefull at all and not really connected.
Also in halfling - to take + to saves I need to take dex. I dont like being forced into taking sth I dont want to.
Id prefer it to just be "X points spend in tree prereq" so I could spend them on sth I want.
This and Ill be good.

Yeah. I agree, what they should do is make the tree wider with more abilities so you do not have to take things you do not want. Also some of the garbage abilites should not be connected to trees (or removed).

Missing_Minds
04-15-2013, 10:13 AM
I keep seeing people asking for the best abilities low in the trees. I guess playing a game definitely does not give people insight in how to design one.

Seriously people, there is a reason why the best abilities are at the top and require investment. Think about it.

I've seen more player request abilities that we are used to to be located in roughly the same location lvl wise that we are currently used to.

Let alone players asking for removal of useless junk that we don't have to deal with in Live.

We have also seen over priced costs from developers for Alpha. This has trade offs.
It allows the developers to push stuff out and not worry about raising them later. But the trade off is that What the HECK have they been doing with this stuff the last several years??? Why can't they take the time to use everything they've learned to actually do a decent pricing at the start rather than a slack lazy rush job that appears to be done. Due to scheduled and assigned jobs/issues this failure of foresight/planning is not just a developer issue but manager and producer failure as well, if not more so.
It boils down to perception, and it bites everyone.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 10:27 AM
I've seen more player request abilities that we are used to to be located in roughly the same location lvl wise that we are currently used to.

Let alone players asking for removal of useless junk that we don't have to deal with in Live.

We have also seen over priced costs from developers for Alpha. This has trade offs.
It allows the developers to push stuff out and not worry about raising them later. But the trade off is that What the HECK have they been doing with this stuff the last several years??? Why can't they take the time to use everything they've learned to actually do a decent pricing at the start rather than a slack lazy rush job that appears to be done. Due to scheduled and assigned jobs/issues this failure of foresight/planning is not just a developer issue but manager and producer failure as well, if not more so.
It boils down to perception, and it bites everyone.

This does not looked rush, it looks well thought out. And its not like they do not have numerous other things to work on at the same time..

They are taking the conservative approach and tweaking it so it does not become unbalanced. Which is the approach they ARE and SHOULD be taking.

brickwall
04-15-2013, 10:32 AM
This does not looked rush, it looks well thought out. And its not like they do not have numerous other things to work on at the same time..

They are taking the conservative approach and tweaking it so it does not become unbalanced. Which is the approach they ARE and SHOULD be taking.

don't look rushed I found 4 exploitable bugs as soon as I logged in to lamania and I was walking around with all top tier ability's in all trees with in a few minuets. looks super rushed and super buggy to me i don't see things like most as a programmer my self i see the flaws.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 10:37 AM
don't look rushed I found 4 exploitable bugs as soon as I logged in to lamania and I was walking around with all top tier ability's in all trees with in a few minuets. looks super rushed and super buggy to me i don't see things like most as a programmer my self i see the flaws.

It is alpha...

Missing_Minds
04-15-2013, 11:01 AM
It is alpha...

http://www.rovang.org/wiki/alphafive.jpg

Yes, Yes it is.

Chai
04-15-2013, 11:05 AM
I keep seeing people asking for the best abilities low in the trees. I guess playing a game definitely does not give people insight in how to design one.

Seriously people, there is a reason why the best abilities are at the top and require investment. Think about it.

Things that are currently NOT at the higher tiers and require a smaller amount of points to be spent (and as a total, not in one tree) are now higher up in specific trees and require a higher expenditure in that tree (not total). The disappointment is that in many cases someone cant build for the same abilities they have all of today, due to a more limiting system.

Khatzhas
04-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Sometimes a powerful ability is balanced not just by its cost, but by that of the less-powerful prerequisites needed to get it.

It is human nature to want as much "bang for the buck" as possible.
Many people are also wanting their old builds, designed to take maximum advantage of the quirks of the older system, to work just as well with the new system, if not actively buffed.

HungarianRhapsody
04-15-2013, 11:14 AM
I keep seeing people asking for the best abilities low in the trees. I guess playing a game definitely does not give people insight in how to design one.

Seriously people, there is a reason why the best abilities are at the top and require investment. Think about it.

Only an absolutely terrible game would give 40 spellpower in an element for just 1 AP at level 1 on a Wizard or Sorcerer. No one would ever consider playing a game that is so horribly unbalanced. And you obviously would need to take at least 15 levels of Rogue or Monk in order to get Evasion. Only a whiner and exploiter would try to demand something as overpowering as Evasion with just a couple of Rogue or Monk levels.[/sarcasm]

DDO is currently *very* front loaded for power in both classes and enhancements. That seems to be working fairly well at the moment. If Turbine wants to make changes to improve the game, that's awesome. Just making changes for the sake of making changes isn't helpful, however. Changing the game from frontloaded power to backloaded power isn't a good change as far as I'm concerned.

chanw4
04-15-2013, 11:16 AM
Many people are also wanting their old builds, designed to take maximum advantage of the quirks of the older system, to work just as well with the new system, if not actively buffed.

I think a lot of people are like that.

Kilbar
04-15-2013, 11:17 AM
don't look rushed I found 4 exploitable bugs as soon as I logged in to lamania and I was walking around with all top tier ability's in all trees with in a few minuets. looks super rushed and super buggy to me i don't see things like most as a programmer my self i see the flaws.

Rushed, you say? After being feminine canined at for MONTHS by us to hurry up with the NGE? Gee, couldn't imagine why it's rushed, but "lazy" wouldn't be my first guess. That'd just be petulant.

Gkar
04-15-2013, 11:31 AM
Things that are currently NOT at the higher tiers and require a smaller amount of points to be spent (and as a total, not in one tree) are now higher up in specific trees and require a higher expenditure in that tree (not total). The disappointment is that in many cases someone cant build for the same abilities they have all of today, due to a more limiting system.

Yup, Chai is right on here, that is the primary problem.

So, where an arti gets their signature machine gun at L6 on live, it looks like 8 for the ability on Lama, and in fact they will have to give up other things they could have had at 6-8 on live just to get that ability at 8 in the new system. That just sucks.

Now we know that PART of that will be elminated when the costs of enhancements are reduced, but we don't know now if the dev's opinion of the reduction is 1 AP per tree or 50% of what it is now.

The other thing that was highlighted as a key reason to go to this system was that they were going to get rid of the "junk" prereqs/enhancments. By most accounts, they have failed to do that. In fact they have gone the other way and pulled out some useful enhancements (for example, UMD for artis)

It just feels bad to be "forced" to pay for 10AP of stuff no one in their right mind would have any use for to qualify for the 2AP Koolthing. I'd rather they just price Koolthing appropriately, or even better, make sure that the stuff on the way to Koolthing is also at least half decent and is related/logic for someone who would want Koolthing.

The tree system is conceptually fine, but they really did go with a horrid (if predictable) implimentation.

Khatzhas
04-15-2013, 01:28 PM
So, where an arti gets their signature machine gun at L6 on live, it looks like 8 for the ability on Lama, and in fact they will have to give up other things they could have had at 6-8 on live just to get that ability at 8 in the new system. That just sucks.
But why does it "suck"?
Is it because at level 6 Artificers will need endless fusillade in order to be capable of running the quests to get to level 8? Is it because all of the other classes in the new system get a big boost at level 6 and the artificer will need to have access to EF in order to remain relevant?
Or is it just because people got used to having it at level 6 in the old system and thus feel entitled to be able to get it at level 6 rather than a couple of levels later?

HungarianRhapsody
04-15-2013, 01:31 PM
But why does it "suck"?
Is it because at level 6 Artificers will need endless fusillade in order to be capable of running the quests to get to level 8? Is it because all of the other classes in the new system get a big boost at level 6 and the artificer will need to have access to EF in order to remain relevant?
Or is it just because people got used to having it at level 6 in the old system and thus feel entitled to be able to get it at level 6 rather than a couple of levels later?

It's because 6 is one of the magic numbers for DDO.

6 of Artificer lets you still pick up 12 of another class and 2 of a third. 8 of Artificer eliminates the possibility of a third class for anyone who is going to go for one of the significant core abilities.

I love the idea of having to sacrifice to make different build choices. I think that the sacrifice should be able to get you something meaningful and significant in return. Right now, it looks like multiclassing will not take as much away (because you can still buy most of the good stuff in your "main" tree), but it doesn't offer nearly as much in return because of the need to spend so much AP in the "main" tree to get to the point where you can do something useful with that tree.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 01:36 PM
Look your builds are going to change. You have to be open to the possibility that you can build something better. I have done several seriously op builds already. The stuff is there you just need to look for it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415112

If you are always looking back at what you had, its hard to look forward and see what you CAN have.

Missing_Minds
04-15-2013, 01:51 PM
The stuff is there you just need to look for it.

If you are always looking back at what you had, its hard to look forward and see what you CAN have.

First an anecdotal comment. I'd love to go look if lama would fning work!

Now for what you stated: While true if you always look back you'll never see what you could have. HOWEVER, in an aged game, not being able to have what you had could cost you many a player. Is the game still so alive you can afford to do so? Obviously, Turbine thinks so. Who will it hit emotionally the hardest? Long time vets that are full of knowledge. There in lies another great loss. The repository of information will shrink. I doubt managers ever think of this latter part.

SableShadow
04-15-2013, 01:57 PM
HOWEVER, in an aged game, not being able to have what you had could cost you many a player.

"Change Fatigue" was the term I used in CoX.
I'm all for new stuff, and there's a good many things I want to try out in the enhancement update, but every time you put the game on its ear you're going to lose some people.

Missing_Minds
04-15-2013, 01:58 PM
"Change Fatigue" was the term I used in CoX.
I'm all for new stuff, but every time you put the game on its ear you're going to lose some people.
The term fits.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 02:32 PM
First an anecdotal comment. I'd love to go look if lama would fning work!

Now for what you stated: While true if you always look back you'll never see what you could have. HOWEVER, in an aged game, not being able to have what you had could cost you many a player. Is the game still so alive you can afford to do so? Obviously, Turbine thinks so. Who will it hit emotionally the hardest? Long time vets that are full of knowledge. There in lies another great loss. The repository of information will shrink. I doubt managers ever think of this latter part.

There was a rather large portion that left because the enhancement pass was not done when it was said. Also a good number of people are only staying because of the enhancement pass. Turbine knows this, its in the exit surveys and on the forums.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 02:33 PM
"Change Fatigue" was the term I used in CoX.
I'm all for new stuff, and there's a good many things I want to try out in the enhancement update, but every time you put the game on its ear you're going to lose some people.

I am wondering if you have access to turbines internal numbers and exit surveys...because they do.

Postumus
04-15-2013, 02:38 PM
It's because 6 is one of the magic numbers for DDO.



Obviously not any more. I don't see a problem with that.

SableShadow
04-15-2013, 02:40 PM
I am wondering if you have access to turbines internal numbers and exit surveys...because they do.

I don't.
Does that make the phenomenon not exist?
You're waving your pompoms waaaaay too hard if I made your cut; as I said, there are a lot of things I'm looking forward to playing with.


Obviously not any more. I don't see a problem with that.

Pretty much.

eonfreon
04-15-2013, 02:41 PM
Look your builds are going to change. You have to be open to the possibility that you can build something better. I have done several seriously op builds already. The stuff is there you just need to look for it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415112

If you are always looking back at what you had, its hard to look forward and see what you CAN have.

Yes, there will likely be even more OP builds then there are currently. Which just highlights that this enhancement pass accomplishes very little. It doesn't balance anything. It just changes everything. Only thing it does is require a bunch of TRs. Yay. That's great. I get to trash my favorite character, who isn't OP, because the Devs want to put their signature on the game or something. To heck with my vision for the character that I developed over years of playing by a certain set of rules. He'll be such an inferior version of himself if this goes Live that he's not even worth saving. He'll undergo a TR, which is what the Devs seem to want. Fine, I'll restart from scratch yet again, play through old content once again. This time I have a completely different vision, however.

Due to the way the Devs have ignored our requests and feedback for years now, the one thing I will enjoy, is making a build that trashes the content and totally makes them look like chumps.

This change is change for change's sake. It does nothing to balance the classes or the game. It just changes how class level and splits interact. In many cases it will probably create new builds that will be even more powerful, even as it makes old builds obsolete and useless. Hey, that's fine. It seems the way the Devs balance the game. They look at what's currently OP and make it obsolete by nerfing it and making something else OP. I guess that keeps the TR treadmill going, so at least it seems somewhat of a financially viable game model.

Postumus
04-15-2013, 02:46 PM
Who will it hit emotionally the hardest? Long time vets that are full of knowledge. There in lies another great loss. The repository of information will shrink. I doubt managers ever think of this latter part.

According to 'the forums' those players left because of U14. Since Turbine has the actual data worth using, and since they've been at this MMO thing fairly successfully for the last ten years despite what Joe Forum Troll would have us believe, I have a little faith that this will work out in the end.


That faith is tempered with the reality of HOW things get rolled out by Turbine. I do expect some bugs that are identified in Alpha (and subsequent permutations on Lama) won't be fixed right away. I do expect exploits to abound for a while. I do expect changes and tweaks to the enhancement trees and abilities after it hits live. I do expect the awesome builds of today won't be the awesome builds of tomorrow. I don't expect everything to work any better than it has the last two years of updates.


But I do think they are taking a step (much requested by the forums) in the right direction. And even if there are a few nerfs here and there, and even if the builds have to change, even if (gods forbid!) we can't dump INT anymore, I think I'll end up enjoying the final result.


I could be wrong. But I'll wait and see.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 02:51 PM
According to 'the forums' those players left because of U14. Since Turbine has the actual data worth using, and since they've been at this MMO thing fairly successfully for the last ten years despite what Joe Forum Troll would have us believe, I have a little faith that this will work out in the end.


That faith is tempered with the reality of HOW things get rolled out by Turbine. I do expect some bugs that are identified in Alpha (and subsequent permutations on Lama) won't be fixed right away. I do expect exploits to abound for a while. I do expect changes and tweaks to the enhancement trees and abilities after it hits live. I do expect the awesome builds of today won't be the awesome builds of tomorrow. I don't expect everything to work any better than it has the last two years of updates.


But I do think they are taking a step (much requested by the forums) in the right direction. And even if there are a few nerfs here and there, and even if the builds have to change, even if (gods forbid!) we can't dump INT anymore, I think I'll end up enjoying the final result.


I could be wrong. But I'll wait and see.

Thats sums it up. +1!

Gkar
04-15-2013, 02:52 PM
Turbine knows this, its in the exit surveys and on the forums.

Turbine stopped doing exit surveys.

Ape_Man
04-15-2013, 02:58 PM
I could be wrong. But I'll wait and see.

You will be, and it will be damned entertaining.

eonfreon
04-15-2013, 03:01 PM
Obviously not any more. I don't see a problem with that.

Obviously you don't. That's fine, I can respect that. Your voice of acceptance is just as valid as someone else's voice of dissension. Because some do have a problem with that.

Because when Turbine changes the way the character level splits to do what they did before, it requires more than an Enhancement reset and relocation of points, it requires either a TR or a +LR. I don't want to have to TR and play the early game all over again. But I will, if I have to, because the alternative is to pay Turbine to fix the character that they break. I'm not about to reward Turbine for breaking my character just so they can be "new".

It is a bit of a problem for me. I built my characters by the rules. I didn't exploit. But at this late in the game the Devs want to change so much, it's just baffling. New uses for Heal skill? A brand new skill as well needed by casters?

The Devs know you can't just pop over to Fred and reset your skill points. And they know noone uses Heal and the new Skill didn't exist. So I'm certainly hoping they're giving everyone a free LR again. With the way the changes have been made it really should be at least a +5 LR if not more.

The thing that really drives me crazy is that it doesn't really look like it balances the game at all. All it does is rebalance it, in that it shifts the power from some builds to others. That's not balance. Not when you wind up with OP builds all over again.

Ape_Man
04-15-2013, 03:01 PM
Yes, there will likely be even more OP builds then there are currently. Which just highlights that this enhancement pass accomplishes very little. It doesn't balance anything. It just changes everything. Only thing it does is require a bunch of TRs. Yay. That's great. I get to trash my favorite character, who isn't OP, because the Devs want to put their signature on the game or something. To heck with my vision for the character that I developed over years of playing by a certain set of rules. He'll be such an inferior version of himself if this goes Live that he's not even worth saving. He'll undergo a TR, which is what the Devs seem to want. Fine, I'll restart from scratch yet again, play through old content once again. This time I have a completely different vision, however.

Due to the way the Devs have ignored our requests and feedback for years now, the one thing I will enjoy, is making a build that trashes the content and totally makes them look like chumps.

This change is change for change's sake. It does nothing to balance the classes or the game. It just changes how class level and splits interact. In many cases it will probably create new builds that will be even more powerful, even as it makes old builds obsolete and useless. Hey, that's fine. It seems the way the Devs balance the game. They look at what's currently OP and make it obsolete by nerfing it and making something else OP. I guess that keeps the TR treadmill going, so at least it seems somewhat of a financially viable game model.


pretty much . . . some Dev's pet project that ran amuck fixing something that isn't broken.

And yes, there are some insanely broken and over-powered combos in the new system that are WORSE than what people whine about now. The smart players will just learn to never publicize a build again.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 03:02 PM
Obviously you don't. That's fine, I can respect that. Your voice of acceptance is just as valid as someone else's voice of dissension. Because some do have a problem with that.

Because when Turbine changes the way the character level splits to do what they did before, it requires more than an Enhancement reset and relocation of points, it requires either a TR or a +LR. I don't want to have to TR and play the early game all over again. But I will, if I have to, because the alternative is to pay Turbine to fix the character that they break. I'm not about to reward Turbine for breaking my character just so they can be "new".

It is a bit of a problem for me. I built my characters by the rules. I didn't exploit. But at this late in the game the Devs want to change so much, it's just baffling. New uses for Heal skill? A brand new skill as well needed by casters?

The Devs know you can't just pop over to Fred and reset your skill points. And they know noone uses Heal and the new Skill didn't exist. So I'm certainly hoping they're giving everyone a free LR again. With the way the changes have been made it really should be at least a +5 LR if not more.

The thing that really drives me crazy is that it doesn't really look like it balances the game at all. All it does is rebalance it, in that it shifts the power from some builds to others. That's not balance. Not when you wind up with OP builds all over again.

I would actually expect maybe a LR+10 or more likely we will get new and improved XP stones (my vote). 1-16 maybe? The you get to play all the new stuff that will probably come right before the expansion pack at level.

SableShadow
04-15-2013, 03:06 PM
I would actually expect maybe a LR+10 or more likely we will get new and improved XP stones (my vote). 1-16 maybe? The you get to play all the new stuff that will probably come right before the expansion pack at level.

Based on ... ?

Postumus
04-15-2013, 03:06 PM
Due to the way the Devs have ignored our requests and feedback for years now, the one thing I will enjoy, is making a build that trashes the content and totally makes them look like chumps.

This change is change for change's sake. It does nothing to balance the classes or the game. It just changes how class level and splits interact. In many cases it will probably create new builds that will be even more powerful, even as it makes old builds obsolete and useless. Hey, that's fine. It seems the way the Devs balance the game. They look at what's currently OP and make it obsolete by nerfing it and making something else OP. I guess that keeps the TR treadmill going, so at least it seems somewhat of a financially viable game model.

You seem really worked up for someone who has stated he just came back from a long break from DDO. I don't know what you expected, but after the massive changes with EDs, none of this comes as a big surprise to me. Frankly I'm glad they are putting this much effort into it.

And it's not change for change's sake. People have been demanding the enhancement pass for as long as I remember reading the forums. And now that it is here, and not what some people expected, they are overreacting... as select groups of players do to every single change.


Relax. Give your CONSTRUCTIVE feedback to Turbine. Wait and see what happens. If what is implemented is still something you can't stand, then move on. Realistically that is all any of us can do. So why get all worked up over it?

Postumus
04-15-2013, 03:08 PM
I would actually expect maybe a LR+10 or more likely we will get new and improved XP stones (my vote). 1-16 maybe? The you get to play all the new stuff that will probably come right before the expansion pack at level.

Since people will be able to start characters at level 15 (?) soon, I doubt we'll get any free respecs at all. And if we did, I wouldn't use them any way since I want to experience the new changes from levels 1-28.

Chai
04-15-2013, 03:16 PM
You seem really worked up for someone who has stated he just came back from a long break from DDO. I don't know what you expected, but after the massive changes with EDs, none of this comes as a big surprise to me. Frankly I'm glad they are putting this much effort into it.

And it's not change for change's sake. People have been demanding the enhancement pass for as long as I remember reading the forums. And now that it is here, and not what some people expected, they are overreacting... as select groups of players do to every single change.


Relax. Give your CONSTRUCTIVE feedback to Turbine. Wait and see what happens. If what is implemented is still something you can't stand, then move on. Realistically that is all any of us can do. So why get all worked up over it?

Many who are "demanding" the enhancement pass are the ones overreacting to how good some build/destiny combinations are, and they have been "demanding" nerfs for a while now. The pass coincides with their agenda of nerfing FOTM builds which they claim trivialize content. When the smoke clears and this new pass is in place, what will occur shortly afterward, is the optimizers will crank out the new FOTM, and then the overreaction will begin anew.

Those of us who understand where the real issues lie here are pointing out that many of the same combinations of abilities which can be built in the current incarnation of the game cannot be built in the alpha, due to overtaxation in prereqs and arbitrary limitations - the biggest example being the one we pointed out over a year ago - the three tree limit. Theres no overreaction whatsoever in pointing this out, that obvious proxy nerf is obvious. The CONSTRUCTIVE feedback about the impact the three tree limit would have was provided in the first thread on the issue, and they are still so far going ahead with it anyhow. The FOTM haters love it right now as they snear in the faces of the FOTM players, but wait til they drop this, and being able to build in less options than current literally enforces the FOTM mentality even more, due to less ways to deviate from the FOTM and still remain optimal/viable.

kingfisher
04-15-2013, 03:17 PM
This does not looked rush, it looks well thought out. And its not like they do not have numerous other things to work on at the same time..

They are taking the conservative approach and tweaking it so it does not become unbalanced. Which is the approach they ARE and SHOULD be taking.

ha. thats funny, well thought out.

so it does not become unbalanced, thats even funnier. you think they care about balance? all they care about is moving the needle from one build type to another to get those TR/LR dollars flowing in again.

you are either too deep in the throws of your fanboigasm to notice or have been running ****** builds that might be getting a boost from being so far off the radar. either way, your veiw on this entire matter has been compromised by your posts.

kingfisher
04-15-2013, 03:27 PM
You seem really worked up for someone who has stated he just came back from a long break from DDO. I don't know what you expected, but after the massive changes with EDs, none of this comes as a big surprise to me. Frankly I'm glad they are putting this much effort into it.

And it's not change for change's sake. People have been demanding the enhancement pass for as long as I remember reading the forums. And now that it is here, and not what some people expected, they are overreacting... as select groups of players do to every single change.


Relax. Give your CONSTRUCTIVE feedback to Turbine. Wait and see what happens. If what is implemented is still something you can't stand, then move on. Realistically that is all any of us can do. So why get all worked up over it?

effort? they didnt listen to a single thing that was brought up in any of their let talk threads. no effort.

no its not just for change's sake, its to require more cash from their player base to repair the builds that the enh pass ruins.

relax? nothing in ef's post that is not relaxed. no exclamation points were used. no 0o0o0o's were abused. no one seems worked up. this is just what you say to people that dont like the idiotic moves that turbine is making. its an easy button for you but it doesnt apply. waiting and seeing is a guarantee for dissapointment with turbine, always been. granted, it not like they listen much when it comes early either, but still, waiting = losing with these bozo's.

why make this post, other than just being a unapologetic turbine fluffer? you have nothing to add besides typical fanboism's, please spare us.

eonfreon
04-15-2013, 03:33 PM
You seem really worked up for someone who has stated he just came back from a long break from DDO. I don't know what you expected, but after the massive changes with EDs, none of this comes as a big surprise to me. Frankly I'm glad they are putting this much effort into it.

And it's not change for change's sake. People have been demanding the enhancement pass for as long as I remember reading the forums. And now that it is here, and not what some people expected, they are overreacting... as select groups of players do to every single change.


Relax. Give your CONSTRUCTIVE feedback to Turbine. Wait and see what happens. If what is implemented is still something you can't stand, then move on. Realistically that is all any of us can do. So why get all worked up over it?

Oh come on. I'm merely responding to your comments. I can make heated remarks but not be "all worked up over it".

And being "worked up over it" doesn't have any ill effects. It's not like I'm standing above my screen, yelling into it or something.

But, yes, I'm very disappointed in the Devs. And I'm letting my displeasure known.

I also have given plenty of constructive feedback and bug reports. This particular thread is far more about the philosophy of change and the idea of the fact that they are changing so many fundamental apects of the very game mechanics.

Just as a simple example: the need for equipping a shield to benefit fom the Paladin Defensive Stance at all. Before there were some passive aspects that still added to a character's survival. A shield was helpful and had some nice little boosts, but hardly really necessary. So we've been taught throught the life of the game that a shield is only a situationally useable item and yet now it's completely necessary to get any of the functions of the PrE. The rest of the stuff in the PrE aren't even of the PrE, they're what were part of the general Paladin enhancements. Now they're part of the PrE probably because Turbine wanted to populate the tree with stuff.

And if it functio ns like the Fighter one, it's a really broken ability. Not only do you have to have a shield equipped, but you also have to have a weapon. Switch to a wand or scroll and you lose the benefits and go into a long 1 minute cooldown before you can re-establish the Stance. That makes no sense. It better be different for Paladins, considering Wand and Scroll usage are innate abilities of the class. And I hope it's a bug that if you equip a throwing weapon it also de-activates the Stance. I think it even de-activates if you change weapons. That last part has to be a bug.

So now I have to click on a shield and then also activate the Stance clickie. When I need the Stance as they've made it, it'll be an "Oh Darn" moment. I need it to be quick, not two clicks. It should be passive. Equip a shield= On, Unequip a Shield= Off. Having to have a shield is nerf enough, there's no need for the cooldown and the deactivation of having anything other than a melee weapon in hand. It's like the Devs thought, "Oh that'll make SHields overpowered if we don't put other conditions on it". THere would have to be some pretty substantial shield buffs to make shields viable even, never mind OP. ANd for them not to see that... and then to add in a mechanic that's just going to create problems and open up for bugs, such as any switching, even to another melee weapon, breaking the stance, is just incredible. And why do they want to nerf using wands and scrolls while using the stance? Just makes no sense.

It would help if the Devs explained some of their reasoning.

And yes it is change for change's sake. People have been asking for the Enhancements to be completed. For the PrEs to be exact. What we've been "demanding" is that they show us what they are doing, because we feared just what's happening now, that they are so disconnected from the game that they'll redesign something no one was asking to be redesigned. We wanted it to be completed, not completely changed. The PrEs were supposed to be done for all the classes, not the entire build process and class splits changed.

And yes, I did just come back from a long break. What of it? I'd like to not take another long break. Luckily, from what I can see it'll be some time before they put this Live, so I don't have to worry about it for awhile. That's the good part about this Alpha. That at least, for once, Turbine is giving us quite a bit of time to adjust.

But I'm protesting a lot of the changes now as vehemently as I can in the hopes that Turbine will actually look at the feedback and make changes accordingly. When they've done some revisions and it starts to get set in stone, I'll be far less vocal about my complaints because they'll matter less. They won't be willing or even able to change much at that time. If they keep to their promises and judging by the major list of bugs and oversights they admit to, it looks like it'll be a while before they try to put it Live.

So, relax. My criticisms won't hurt their feelings. They'll get over it, just as I will.

Gremmlynn
04-15-2013, 03:53 PM
This does not looked rush, it looks well thought out. And its not like they do not have numerous other things to work on at the same time..

They are taking the conservative approach and tweaking it so it does not become unbalanced. Which is the approach they ARE and SHOULD be taking.It looks rushed to me. They basically took the tree system designed for EDs and tried to cram the existing enhancements, for the most part, into it. What used to be tiered, became ranked and placed at whatever tier had space and whatever was left over left out or just arbitrarily placed into trees.

kingfisher
04-15-2013, 03:57 PM
It looks rushed to me. They basically took the tree system designed for EDs and tried to cram the existing enhancements, for the most part, into it. What used to be tiered, became ranked and placed at whatever tier had space and whatever was left over left out or just arbitrarily placed into trees.

exactly, they are trying to fit the stuff into the graphic instead of making the graphic to fit the stuff. dumb idea. never works.

cdbd3rd
04-15-2013, 04:04 PM
So, where an arti gets their signature machine gun at L6 on live, it looks like 8 for the ability on Lama, and in fact they will have to give up other things they could have had at 6-8 on live just to get that ability at 8 in the new system. That just sucks.

....

So I wasn't imagining that.
I had tried several ways to get my EF on a vet-7 Arty, but was tired and figured I was just missing the trick.

/Continues waiting on Alpha to progress to Beta.

Chai
04-15-2013, 04:55 PM
exactly, they are trying to fit the stuff into the graphic instead of making the graphic to fit the stuff. dumb idea. never works.

This.

The UI should have been made to fit the enhancements we currently have. What they are doing is creating a completely arbitrary UI, then trying to cram the abilities into it any way that works graphically - and this is leading to overtaxation through prereqs and a tree limitation, making ability combinations we can have now, impossible to get in the alpha.

chanw4
04-15-2013, 07:17 PM
It's because 6 is one of the magic numbers for DDO.

6 of Artificer lets you still pick up 12 of another class and 2 of a third. 8 of Artificer eliminates the possibility of a third class for anyone who is going to go for one of the significant core abilities.

I love the idea of having to sacrifice to make different build choices. I think that the sacrifice should be able to get you something meaningful and significant in return. Right now, it looks like multiclassing will not take as much away (because you can still buy most of the good stuff in your "main" tree), but it doesn't offer nearly as much in return because of the need to spend so much AP in the "main" tree to get to the point where you can do something useful with that tree.


erm, you only need Arti level 4 to pick up endless, you need Character level 8 to pick it up, huge difference. at Arti level 6, you can also pickup infuse armor.

compare to old system, you lose 1 weapon enhancement (second weapon enhancement at level 12) but gain 1 armour enhancement and 5PRR (gain in addition to -10 ASF, another - ASF at level 18). Get your fact right before complaining. This is why people are so angry at those who hate the system before even trying it out or at least, try to understand the system and work with it.

chanw4
04-15-2013, 07:19 PM
So I wasn't imagining that.
I had tried several ways to get my EF on a vet-7 Arty, but was tired and figured I was just missing the trick.

/Continues waiting on Alpha to progress to Beta.

You need to spend 20 points in the tree in order to access the ability and spend more points to get EF. which is roughly about level 8. But those 8 level does not need to be an Arti. You only need 4 level of Arti to access tier 4 Arti PrE.