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View Full Version : New trees: Too many clikies or is it just me?



DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 05:48 PM
I have been checking all the trees available and found many "clikie" abilities in each of them, while I think they where added to give more choices and more abilities, it really only adds more stuff to micromanage.

While having more attacks seems fun in theory I can see screens getting clogged with with quick bars, more so then we already have right now.

My feelings on the current enhancement system is that the fact most of the stuff are passives was a good thing, thoughts anyone?

Jay203
04-14-2013, 05:51 PM
i'm kind of mixed on this
while i don't like way too much clickies myself, having way too much permanent passives are not that great as well

DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 05:59 PM
i'm kind of mixed on this
while i don't like way too much clickies myself, having way too much permanent passives are not that great as well

I know what you mean on my more single purpose builds I have only a handful of clikies, most from destiny abilities and the occasional last a few minutes buffs from scrolls prestiges.

They could accommodate a few more clikies, but others, let say my clerics, druids, wizards and sorcs are already rotating spells/abilities like mad...

dynahawk
04-14-2013, 06:11 PM
I vaguely remember a thread started by the dev's asking the community if the preferred more active abilities or passive ones.

I guess the active combat won out. I actually thing that is what I picked but that was before the extra actives from ED's.

shadereaper33
04-14-2013, 08:22 PM
I think they need to find a good balance between them. Some of the classes, like spell casters, already have a million and half buttons to hit as it is, we really don't need any more. The martial classes, at least non-monk martial classes, don't have nearly as many, which can lead to combat being kind of boring. Adding a few new attack clickies isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as they don't overload classes that already have a lot.

Jitty
04-16-2013, 04:17 AM
I built a centered scimitar user fighter with manyshot from some ranger levels. These are the clickies I have to keep track of to maximize damage.

Manyshot
grandmaster fires of purity
grandmaster strike of the enduring
grandmaster storm strike
grandmaster flowing water strike
Improved sunder
shattering strike
deadly strike (although I probably wouldn't use this)
cleave
great cleave
momentum swing
human versitility damage boost
action boost haste
Power surge


Thats 14 things with independant cool downs. Granted, they are optional but the damage the build puts out is pretty good as long as I do nothing but watch cooldowns and action bars :P

Dandonk
04-16-2013, 04:32 AM
Don't get me wrong, active abilities can be cool and fun.

But when I had my twf pally in LD, I could do little else but watching cooldowns and mashing buttons. At that point, it's not so much fun as annoying. I really think there needs to be a better balance in this. Already with EDs there are a lot of button mashing, please do not make it even worse.

Flavilandile
04-16-2013, 04:57 AM
yup too many too short clickies... I don't mind the 5 minute ones... It's the 5/10/15/20/30 second ones I have problems with... usually they end up unused in the category : fluff, point padding category.

Persiflage
04-16-2013, 05:14 AM
Reposting again because I want to loudly agree in every thread where this comes up...

******

I love active abilities. I go crazy for monks and monk-like toons. So much so that although I don't get to play much these days, I bought myself one of those crazy Logitech MMO gaming mice with 12 buttons on the side (and an extra one on top) with a shift key so I've got instant access to 24 different abilities without disrupting how I play. I have another 26 hotkey'd actions associated with the normal keys on my keyboard, and there are 18 programmable buttons at the side which I can use to give me even more active hotbar space (although these last are of limited utility because I haven't figured out a way to grow extra fingers).

And you know what? With all of that action real-estate, I've run out of "room" on some of my characters for abilities I need to instantly access in combat. I just can't keep track of any more. People joke about piano-playing, but I *am* a friggin' pianist - I am not scared of complicated sequences of key-presses and there's nothing at all wrong with my manual dexterity or coordination - and it's getting Too Much. Too much to find space for, too much to keep track of effectively. It has reached the point where I'm failing to use abilities which would make sense in combat because there are too many boosts and strikes with cooldowns for me to keep an eye on; once it gets beyond a certain point, I'd just as well not have those abilities at all.

Someone mentioned 14 different abilities for their fighter to make instant decisions on, and that is indeed a lot - I take nothing away from the poster - but the toon I was most recently playing is an 18 Druid / 2 Monk build. With Stunning Fist. In Grandmaster of Flowers.

Without the character in front of me, and off the top of my head, I am currently trying to *actively* manage, while fighting: 6 innate spell/abilities, 4 monk strikes, 3 heals, 14 spells (obviously not counting out-of-combat buffs or summons), 2 gear clickies, 2 active skills, 6 active GmoF abilities, stunning, 2 action boosts... That's 40 different buttons to press and they're just the ones I can remember right now, not counting things like movement, attacking, blocking, potions, scrolls, wands or weapon swaps. I'm certain that there are plenty of people here who manage even more.

[snip]

Yes, I understand that this problem is endemic to toons which use a tactical melee style *and* cast, and I appreciate that I've made the choice to play a character that has a lot of micro-management required in combat because I enjoy that play-style, but c'mon, enough already. I'm probably towards the high end of the spectrum in terms of how much active management I find enjoyable, but I really, really, REALLY Do Not Need to have *anything* else I can only gain a benefit from by clicking yet another different button mid-fight.

More passive bonuses and long-duration effects (or even things which activate themselves automatically when conditions are met) would be a boon, to say the least. I don't feel the game needs any more 6-to-30-second boosts or strikes with cooldowns; by and large, I'm of the opinion that class and race "enhancements" should (mostly) enhance class and race abilities or characteristics, not introduce a bunch more active abilities to try to work in somehow.

******

JOTMON
04-16-2013, 07:59 AM
waaaayy too many short term clickies and buffs.
I have no interest in learning Piano Keyboarding.

Stop the keymashing madness.

a few situational clickies make sense, more powerful ones with short durations make sense.


This doesnt make any sense...
Cleric Enhancment...
shield.. a +5 sacred PRR bonus to an ally for 6 seconds+1sec/heal skill and still costs 12sp to cast.
Sacred touch. 2-6AP for +1ac/+1prr per tier for 12 seconds...
....and a bunch of other worthless ones that have to be taken to have spent enough points in the tree to get to the next tier.

There is no way I would ever use any of these unless it was something like+100PRR for 6 seconds+1sec/heal skill.
Then for those moments when someone needs a PRR boost because they picked up a boss or a heavy hitter and didnt have much PRR I could mitigate their incoming damage..... it is still of little use to a tank type with invested PRR due to the diminishing returns effect.

All of these enhancments need to be completely reworked and given something to make them worth taking.
Most of what I have seen so far are worthless AP fillers.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-16-2013, 08:07 AM
There are way too many clickies. There are even too many in the current game.

cforce
04-16-2013, 08:37 AM
Active "attack" abilities: yes, in moderation. I like having 3 or 4 to intersperse with regular attacks. More than that becomes too much hotbar-monitoring.

Short term "buff clickies": ugh. These come in boost, and short-term spell form. More than 1 is too many. I've shelved *sooooo* many Pallies over the years because I keep forgeting how much I hate all of the short-term buff management.

Any buff with a duration of 5 minutes or longer: sure, throw in as many as you want.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-16-2013, 08:44 AM
Active "attack" abilities: yes, in moderation. I like having 3 or 4 to intersperse with regular attacks. More than that becomes too much hotbar-monitoring.

Short term "buff clickies": ugh. These come in boost, and short-term spell form. More than 1 is too many. I've shelved *sooooo* many Pallies over the years because I keep forgeting how much I hate all of the short-term buff management.

Any buff with a duration of 5 minutes or longer: sure, throw in as many as you want.

This sounds about right to me. I concur.

Aliss7
04-16-2013, 10:31 AM
What I've found that annoys me is when I need to take my eyes off the action to glance at a timer/cooldown. Dots are the main source of this frustration (niac's, creeping cold/freezing spray, vigors/regenerate, etc). What makes it doubly annoying is having to pop open the details box to see these timers... which:

1) messes with my mouse settings (mouselook gone)
2) hitting z is slow and laggy, especially during big/busy fights.

It's not only an issue with blue bars though... With a vertigo +10, I have an "ok" trip with my rogue, which is great fun to make mobs fall flat on their ass. Every now and then it fails, I then need to glance if it was on cooldown or a missed event.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd like some type of timer/cooldown management/mechanism that doesn't force your eyes to sweep across the screen to a hotbar/cooldown timer.

I have to also say I don't have a good solution.

Engoril
04-16-2013, 10:57 AM
I agree way to many clickies.

Active combat in my mind isn't about having something different to click. Its about watching the battlefield and controlling my position to both avoid damage and increase mine on target of choice. As a melee I am constantly repositioning myself because mobs are trying to flank me and some are pushing me out of position. That takes enough concentration without having to also watch a dozen cooldowns. It may be different for a ranged toon, but for a melee based one we have enough already!

A long time ago I had a choice. I built a pure fighter for simple gameplay, he had no clickies. I could relax while playing him. I also built a pure monk. The monk had lots of clickies to manage. If I was awake enough I played the monk, as all the clickies made him harder to play. As the years have gone by, the fighter's toolbars don't look much different from the monks, and the monk can no longer fit all his clickies conveniently on one set. He's got an extra 4 that I switch into view using hotkeys as situation demands.

There is no room for more clickes. Enough is enough!

I also especially hate the style of clickie that causes a melee strike by itself, and which therefore might not hit if the mob moved away while looking down to check the cooldown. And which if it does manage to hit, only has a small chance of doing something good. If you must have new clickies, much better are the ones that last for a duration and confer a benefit on all melee swings for the duration, or which cause their effect on the next hit you land (rather then on the air you swung your weapon through).

The client also needs to be much improved so those clickies actually reliably trigger while attacking with the left mouse button held down. In my experience they often fail to fire.

Bolo_Grubb
04-16-2013, 11:00 AM
yes too many clickies

barecm
04-16-2013, 11:29 AM
Yes, too many clickies. I don't want this game to turn out to be like all the other trash combat systems where you repetitively mash the same 4-5 attacks in a sequence. To me, that is boring. Watching my cooldown timers more than playing the game is boring.

Dendrix
04-16-2013, 11:54 AM
Enhancement based attack click actions should be better than regular attacks/spells, otherwise using them
1) makes your character weaker.
2) makes your interface more complex and harder to play due to more options

On a "healer" defensive on other clicks should be more effective than casting an equivalent cure. Otherwise why not just cast the cure? Simpler and easier to do.

Adding options is fun, until there are too many of them. Spellcasters already suffer from the multitude of options due to the number of spells that they have available.

droid327
04-17-2013, 11:45 AM
1) yes too many clickies, too much micromanagement. Clickies should come from class levels, ed, feats, or PrE tiers, not just random enhancements. Enhancements are cheap and easy to change..feats and levels should give you more than 2AP does. You really should just have maybe 5-6 buttons to cycle during combat, with enhancements adding power and function to existing skills rather than adding additional buttons. Ie greatcleave reduces the cd of cleave by 50% and adds a 50% chance to extend the cleave arc. Boom, one button for both skills. Or make tactical clicks into "stances" you can toggle to add a % chance to trip/sunder/bluff/etc to every attack, so it works out to similar rates to their current cd. Then its just spells and slas to worry about, so...:

2) buffs should all be changed to an unlimited duration with a slow steady rate of SP drain based on current cost/duration, and no instant cost, just an immediate initial tic, so you can toggle them where and whenever needed. Clickies would still just give a fixed duration. Extend would halve the rate; that meta needs some love anyway. Thus buffs no longer become such a micromanagement issue, and you could even package them into buff sets like weapon sets that could be toggled by one icon.

You consolidate/automate tacticals, consolidate buffs, and reduce micro

BruceTheHoon
04-17-2013, 11:58 AM
I concur.
There are too many single-action medium-cooldown enhancements. With these the attention diverts heavily from the game to hotbars and cooldown numbers just like in other major MMOs. Lack of this is what makes the combat not boring.
Having 10 clickies with 10 second cooldowns will turn the game into keyboard hero (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhLiAvulaWY#t=3m).

Lagin
04-17-2013, 12:37 PM
Tough subject to put on an even keel.

While the devs posted this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=370301 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=370301)
And asked us for feedback, it's obvious they had enough feedback to pursue a more definitive course of development for the enhancement pass.

Passive abilities seem to be less potent while the active abilities (overall) have gained some oomph.

Most of us have an opinion on certain abilities based on our main characters current live set-up vs the new Lamma builds. Some things are better, some are worse.

It's a daunting task to revamp the enhancement system, give us new options, while trying to preserve the unique combat system DDO has.

Certain builds lend themselves to massive hot-bar action and some need very little.

I hope the devs look at each class and adjust the active/ passive balance accordingly.

WangChi
04-17-2013, 03:35 PM
I have been checking all the trees available and found many "clikie" abilities in each of them, while I think they where added to give more choices and more abilities, it really only adds more stuff to micromanage.

While having more attacks seems fun in theory I can see screens getting clogged with with quick bars, more so then we already have right now.

My feelings on the current enhancement system is that the fact most of the stuff are passives was a good thing, thoughts anyone?

I respectfully disagree. The very nature of DDO's combat system lends itself to an active combat style at the keyboard/mouse. If all I did was turn on auto-attack and watch the movie of my toon killing something, I would get very bored very fast and find something else to do.

It's the active abilities that really set players apart. When I'm on one of my melee toons and I can't hear the barb next to me raging/screaming/frenzying/death frenzying/cleaving/momentum swinging -- I know he isn't really trying, he's just on auto-pilot.

And that's OK by me if that's the way they want to play, but it tells me something about the kind of player they are and whether I would choose to run with them again, particularly in the more difficult content. By not making the most use of the abilities they have, they are directly affecting everyone else in the group. If that barb had been as active as possible, he might have saved the healer or casters a few scrolls or pots by the end of the fight or even the other melee's a few silver flame pots.

Even with all the clickies we have now it is usually easy enough to narrow your focus to 3-4 core active attack abilities and rotate through them for max effect.

Zzevel
04-17-2013, 04:08 PM
Yeah it is really getting bad, especially when you have 6 abilities all with different timers.. it seems like im playing whack-a-mole on my bars rather than playing DDO... When you're doing that you miss alot of what is going on around you...

Davelfus
04-17-2013, 07:34 PM
the problem is that now they NEED to fill up 3 or 2 trees of enhancements to justify their existance...

but if you stop and count, i belive we have quite more passives than actives...

and since we have a lot more **** now... we end up with way more actives than we are used to...

Flavilandile
04-18-2013, 02:28 AM
Consider the Cleric Protection tree with all the active clickies in it...

Now consider what a Cleric usually does in a raid... do you really think he is going to keep an eye on 20s silly clickies, when he has more important things to do like trying to keep the party alive ?

It's stupid to think that a cleric will have time to keep an eye on the red bars, the location of the people with said red bars, the heal/cure spells/scrolls cooldown and the various clickies from that tree.

Too many clickies is too many clickies... DDO is not a game about cycling through clickies ( like WoW and SWTOR are ) it's a game of active combat and general awareness of what occurs around you.

Noctus
04-18-2013, 04:34 PM
I have been checking all the trees available and found many "clikie" abilities in each of them, while I think they where added to give more choices and more abilities, it really only adds more stuff to micromanage.

While having more attacks seems fun in theory I can see screens getting clogged with with quick bars, more so then we already have right now.

My feelings on the current enhancement system is that the fact most of the stuff are passives was a good thing, thoughts anyone?


I ffel the same way.

there is only a limited number of clickys, boosts, tactic-attacks and special attacks i can manage bfore it gets a micromanaging annoyance.

For me its about 4 standart-actions and ~4 for special use under certain circumstances. All over that doesnt even go on a hotbar even if i get it for "free", as it actally distracts me too mcuhfrom the combatflow.

There is class, race and Epic Desriny each having so many clickys that each on by itself would be fine, but all together are too much to comfortable manage.

I prefer passive abilties to too many clickies each with too little real impact.



Too many clickies is too many clickies... DDO is not a game about cycling through clickies ( like WoW and SWTOR are ) it's a game of active combat and general awareness of what occurs around you.

This sums it up. I do not want to watch cooldown-timers, i want to focus on the active combat.