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View Full Version : If you enjoy active, button-pushing cool downs, make your voice heard!



Kilbar
04-14-2013, 03:31 PM
There are currently at least three threads worth of people saying they hate the number of cooldown clickies in the new system. At least one individual has said he LIKES this active, tactical play style and welcomes it. I suspect there are others who agree with him.

The problem is, they're not making their voices heard. If the devs see three hundred /signeds and one /not signed, what do you think you'll see in Beta?

So if you enjoy high-adrenaline fast-paced action where you have to watch more than a dozen cooldowns AND the enemy AND the rest of the party AND your own health at once, make your voice heard here!

Personally, I'm with the other guys, but you deserve equal time.

Shmuel
04-14-2013, 03:43 PM
If the devs see three hundred /signeds and one /not signed, what do you think you'll see in Beta?



Judging from the past, I think it means we will see exactly the same thing in beta that we have in alpha. I hope I'm wrong.

For the record I am strongly disappointed in all these silly button mashing things, and want to see all or most of them dumped.

redspecter23
04-14-2013, 04:00 PM
I enjoy mashing some buttons, but there comes a point when you just have more buttons to push than you have time to push them. Take a dreadnaught for example. I imagine they typically spam cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, while also tossing in supreme cleave if barb or trip, stunning blow, etc. Currently I'd guess that you could fill almost every attack with a clickie attack on many builds if you chose to. Every new clickie attack will basically bump the least useful off the bottom of the list.

I want all my activated attacks to have some real punch to them. I don't mind an amazing ability with a long cooldown, but something like that won't get used much and takes up valuable hotbar real estate so it has to be great to justify the inclusion. Lay Waste falls into this category for the most part. It's a cleave, it can trip and does great damage, but it comes with that very lengthy cooldown. I like how there are built in ways to circumvent that long cooldown by using more active combat abilities. It pushes that style and makes you play active to get the most out of the ability.

What I do not like are dull or niche abilities with a long cooldown attached to them. The dreadnaught tactics clearing ability comes to mind. It's a nifty ability that I'm sure I'd use if I happened to have combat expertise on my build, but a 5 minute cooldown? I can't justify adding that to one of my primary buttons so it just sits at the side and whenever I think I might use it, by the time I find the never used button to activate it, my cooldowns are reset anyway.

There should be a very careful balance between power level and cooldown with consideration given to how many clickable abilities we can reasonably manage to fit into builds and active combat time restraints. A large number of abilities with short cooldowns leads to button mashing, but a smaller number of abilities with long cooldowns leads to less interest in even bothering unless it's spectacular.

Perhaps instead of adding so many more clickable abilities, they could explore design space that allows for enhancing clickies already in place. The dreadnaught tactics reset for instance could have been a small 5% to proc on any sunder or 9% on any improved sunder. You still get the effect, but tie it into an already existing ability and also enhance that ability at the same time. The dreadnaught tier 4 abilities could have been like adrenalines (and would have been really cool if they counted as adrenaline as well for great twist potential into fury). You still have the click but it plays as an enhancement to your attack and has more combo ability. I'd accept a longer cooldown on those abilities if they had more combo potential.

Archangel666
04-14-2013, 04:03 PM
Sorry Kilbar, but I'm with the others on this one.

Here's why.


For me it comes down to the way it plays.

On my Monk I'm usually fairly stationary when attacking so I can glance down and check on cooldowns for strikes.

On my AA Ranger I'm usually moving around and need to keep an eye on my position, the mobs position, the mobs position in relation to other mobs to make best use of IPS, the position of any obstacles, the position of party members so that I can angle myself to end up near them when mobs reach me.

Now they're adding the need to do all of that AND look at hotbars for cooldowns while moving?

*Edit* AND having to keep an eye on Temp SP and SP in general to use all these attacks.

I only have so many fingers. How in the Nine Hells am I supposed to fire off all these special arrows, while circling a mob?

And then there's this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/995/screenshot00012i.jpg

Where exactly am I supposed to fit all these extra arrow clickies? (If you're wondering, yes, that's 16 Hotbars and yes, I use all of them).

Kilbar
04-14-2013, 04:08 PM
Sorry Kilbar, but I'm with the others on this one.

Here's why.



I only have so many fingers. How in the Nine Hells am I supposed to fire off all these special arrows, while circling a mob?

And then there's this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/995/screenshot00012i.jpg

Where exactly am I supposed to fit all these extra arrow clickies? (If you're wondering, yes, that's 16 Hotbars and yes, I use all of them).

No, don't misunderstand which side I'm on. I'm with the folks who want to minimize the clickies. I play a Monk and I'm at the bleeding edge of what I can handle already. I just wanted to give the other side a place to be heard should they choose to do so. Equal time and all that.

Archangel666
04-14-2013, 04:15 PM
No, don't misunderstand which side I'm on. I'm with the folks who want to minimize the clickies. I play a Monk and I'm at the bleeding edge of what I can handle already. I just wanted to give the other side a place to be heard should they choose to do so. Equal time and all that.

Ah, fair enough. I doubt I need to explain which side of the fence I am on this issue any further, do I? :)

Vellrad
04-14-2013, 04:32 PM
I like clicking.

I don't mind lots of button mashing at all, I got hidden hotbars with alt+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, shift+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, control+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, alt+shift++E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, alt+control+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, shift+control+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z, alt+shift+control+E/F/R/V/C/X/Z and know how to use those buttons fast.

They aren't all used, but they're set and waiting.

But I would like to have relevant, useful and fun abilities to put on them, not lousy weak attacks.

And I would also like to have decreased delay between clicks, global cooldown removed, and possibility to push 2 buttons, 1 right after another, so 2nd skill is launched as soon as first animation is ended. Current implementation is, to put it nicely, sloppy at best.

Elaril
04-14-2013, 05:38 PM
I wouldnt mind a bit more of an interactive combat system if there were a point to it. Adding additional clickable attacks that do 6 more damage and nothing else is not a positive addition.

C-Shell
04-14-2013, 05:40 PM
i do like mechanisms that raise the skill ceiling of a game. by that i mean that you actually have to be skillful and can get better in time with your game mechanics and you dont rely too much on any given build.

this should be the future of ddo ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbpCLqryN-Q

Matuse
04-14-2013, 05:41 PM
I go out of my way to take as many passive abilities in all games as possible.

You reach a saturation point for what can be easily handled, and everything after that is just clutter.

DDO is probably the most egregious offender for number of buttons to use, and anything which limits that number is nothing but a good thing to me.

Willan
04-14-2013, 05:57 PM
I think I have made a clear case of what is considered good and bad clickys with examples of how they can improve on their current enhancements.

Its all laid out here : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414958

emptysands
04-14-2013, 08:44 PM
And I would also like to have decreased delay between clicks, global cooldown removed, and possibility to push 2 buttons, 1 right after another, so 2nd skill is launched as soon as first animation is ended. Current implementation is, to put it nicely, sloppy at best.

Queuing actions is pretty important if DDO moves towards a move button mashing experience.

SWTOR is pretty much like this and the ability to queue actions is an important aspect of the combat system.

HAL
04-14-2013, 08:49 PM
I enjoy mashing some buttons, but there comes a point when you just have more buttons to push than you have time to push them. Take a dreadnaught for example. I imagine they typically spam cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, while also tossing in supreme cleave if barb or trip, stunning blow, etc. Currently I'd guess that you could fill almost every attack with a clickie attack on many builds if you chose to. Every new clickie attack will basically bump the least useful off the bottom of the list.

I want all my activated attacks to have some real punch to them. I don't mind an amazing ability with a long cooldown, but something like that won't get used much and takes up valuable hotbar real estate so it has to be great to justify the inclusion. Lay Waste falls into this category for the most part. It's a cleave, it can trip and does great damage, but it comes with that very lengthy cooldown. I like how there are built in ways to circumvent that long cooldown by using more active combat abilities. It pushes that style and makes you play active to get the most out of the ability.

What I do not like are dull or niche abilities with a long cooldown attached to them. The dreadnaught tactics clearing ability comes to mind. It's a nifty ability that I'm sure I'd use if I happened to have combat expertise on my build, but a 5 minute cooldown? I can't justify adding that to one of my primary buttons so it just sits at the side and whenever I think I might use it, by the time I find the never used button to activate it, my cooldowns are reset anyway.

There should be a very careful balance between power level and cooldown with consideration given to how many clickable abilities we can reasonably manage to fit into builds and active combat time restraints. A large number of abilities with short cooldowns leads to button mashing, but a smaller number of abilities with long cooldowns leads to less interest in even bothering unless it's spectacular.

Perhaps instead of adding so many more clickable abilities, they could explore design space that allows for enhancing clickies already in place. The dreadnaught tactics reset for instance could have been a small 5% to proc on any sunder or 9% on any improved sunder. You still get the effect, but tie it into an already existing ability and also enhance that ability at the same time. The dreadnaught tier 4 abilities could have been like adrenalines (and would have been really cool if they counted as adrenaline as well for great twist potential into fury). You still have the click but it plays as an enhancement to your attack and has more combo ability. I'd accept a longer cooldown on those abilities if they had more combo potential.

I like this explanation and agree.

ZeebaNeighba
04-14-2013, 08:59 PM
I wouldnt mind a bit more of an interactive combat system if there were a point to it. Adding additional clickable attacks that do 6 more damage and nothing else is not a positive addition.I've never used the +20 to-hit shot from Arcane Archer ever since I saw it had a 30 second cooldown.

Cyr
04-15-2013, 12:54 AM
I think DDO prior to the enh pass was at the saturation point with this type of abilities.

I have no desire to see a ton more clickie on attack abilities in the game (particularly mediocre junk ones which litter the trees).

Dandonk
04-15-2013, 01:07 AM
I think DDO prior to the enh pass was at the saturation point with this type of abilities.

I have no desire to see a ton more clickie on attack abilities in the game (particularly mediocre junk ones which litter the trees).

Very much this.

With the EDs I already have 13 hotbars filled with abilities/spells/items/weapon sets/feats/whatever. I'm not an octopus. I would like fewer, but more meaningful active attacks, please.

Rian
04-15-2013, 01:52 AM
They could add in a macro system for our abilities and clickies, I've seen multiple games do such a thing. Then we can have all the abilities and chain them together as we see fit. I doubt this would happen though.

As for my opinion on button mashing, I don't mind all the button mashing. I've actually cut back on all my items and just made it so my gear was generalized for the content and eliminate duplicates of icons on my hotbars to make room for new abilities. I'd rather not just hold down a mouse button for my dps, I WANT to hit all those buttons with various effects.

Hitting those buttons allow me to feel more engaged in the game than if I were playing a fighter leveling up. I get bored in certain raids because we get to the end boss and all I have to do is hit auto-attack then I could go afk if I felt like it. I hate that feeling.

Memnir
04-15-2013, 02:19 AM
Behold the future!!!
.
.
.
http://i.imgur.com/W9sUqgx.jpg
.
.

eonfreon
04-15-2013, 02:25 AM
Behold the future!!!
.
.
.
http://i.imgur.com/W9sUqgx.jpg
.
.

Heh. That's not the future. That's pretty close to how my screen looks now. TWF Paladin in Legendary Dreadnaught ;).

Persiflage
04-15-2013, 08:45 AM
In the absence of being able to move a post from the other thread, I'll repost my opinion here 'cos I like agreeing in loud voices ;)

******

I love active abilities. I go crazy for monks and monk-like toons. So much so that although I don't get to play much these days, I bought myself one of those crazy Logitech MMO gaming mice with 12 buttons on the side (and an extra one on top) with a shift key so I've got instant access to 24 different abilities without disrupting how I play. I have another 26 hotkey'd actions associated with the normal keys on my keyboard, and there are 18 programmable buttons at the side which I can use to give me even more active hotbar space (although these last are of limited utility because I haven't figured out a way to grow extra fingers).

And you know what? With all of that action real-estate, I've run out of "room" on some of my characters for abilities I need to instantly access in combat. I just can't keep track of any more. People joke about piano-playing, but I *am* a friggin' pianist - I am not scared of complicated sequences of key-presses and there's nothing at all wrong with my manual dexterity or coordination - and it's getting Too Much. Too much to find space for, too much to keep track of effectively. It has reached the point where I'm failing to use abilities which would make sense in combat because there are too many boosts and strikes with cooldowns for me to keep an eye on; once it gets beyond a certain point, I'd just as well not have those abilities at all.

Someone mentioned 14 different abilities for their fighter to make instant decisions on, and that is indeed a lot - I take nothing away from the poster - but the toon I was most recently playing is an 18 Druid / 2 Monk build. With Stunning Fist. In Grandmaster of Flowers.

Without the character in front of me, and off the top of my head, I am currently trying to *actively* manage, while fighting: 6 innate spell/abilities, 4 monk strikes, 3 heals, 14 spells (obviously not counting out-of-combat buffs or summons), 2 gear clickies, 2 active skills, 6 active GmoF abilities, stunning, 2 action boosts... That's 40 different buttons to press and they're just the ones I can remember right now, not counting things like movement, attacking, blocking, potions, scrolls, wands or weapon swaps. I'm certain that there are plenty of people here who manage even more. Responding to eonfreon's point above, almost all of these things are subject to disruption by the game client or server not keeping up, mobs being unaffected because they're mid-animation, invisible geometry blocking line of effect, the "you are not facing" bug etc., and they've all got cooldowns to keep track of; if a planned sequence of actions falls apart due to a hiccup in the game, it can be a nightmare to work out how to pick the thread up again.

Yes, I understand that this problem is endemic to toons which use a tactical melee style *and* cast, and I appreciate that I've made the choice to play a character that has a lot of micro-management required in combat because I enjoy that play-style, but c'mon, enough already. I'm probably towards the high end of the spectrum in terms of how much active management I find enjoyable, but I really, really, REALLY Do Not Need to have *anything* else I can only gain a benefit from by clicking yet another different button mid-fight. More passive bonuses and long-duration effects (or even things which activate themselves automatically when conditions are met) would be a boon, to say the least. I don't feel the game needs any more 6-to-30-second boosts or strikes with cooldowns; by and large, I'm of the opinion that class and race "enhancements" should (mostly) enhance class and race abilities or characteristics, not introduce a bunch more active abilities to try to work in somehow.

******

Yeah, so, while I can see that some toons can probably cope nicely with some more boosts and strikes and whatnot, hardly any of mine could.

voodoogroves
04-15-2013, 08:59 AM
I'm going to say I'm violently in BOTH camps - and suspect that maybe some are like me.


I love active play. Trip. Cleave. Stun.

I enjoy my monks. I'd be lying if I said I used more than a handful of abilities consistently though. I've got a monk splashed fighter and there's barely time for me to cycle through the few tactical feats he has - I rarely get around to putting in those elemtental strikes. Thankfully, I've got a set of "boss" keys and a set of "trash" keys, and I use different sets for each. When I had a pure monk w/ tactics, it was impossible to use everything so I've really pared-down. Switching from mode A to mode B takes time and is annoying too - I'm tempted to remove the other trips and stuns just because now that I'm in ED land I'm tossing flower bits around more to charge EIN and don't have the time (opportunity cost) to really execute on the other tactical feats.

I dislike clicking incredibly short-term boosts with activation delays. I have to be disciplined to use action boosts, because they annoy me - though I know their power. I use them, but don't enjoy them as much - they are right at the edge of "not really active any more". This is, I think, part of why I really hate Divine Might - too slow to activate. It isn't "active", yet is another "clicky intensvie" thing. If Divine Might activated as fast as an action boost, I'd sure as heck use it more.

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 09:15 AM
I am posting this in several threads instead of answering each individually basically because they are all about the same thing.


I have notice that the same people keep starting the same threads over and over trying to smash there point into the devs (now who is button mashing).

So you do not like button mashing, many of us do. I like more skill in my gameplay not just constant auto buffs. I want stuff to do after I make my character other then put on gear and click the mouse buttons.

And there are plenty of people who agree. I am usually to busy having fun button mashing to go post tons of threads about how the game should be made the way I want it and forget what other people want.

If YOU do not want to use the clickie attacks, fine then build a character that does not use them.

What we needs is options for both, I noticed that appear to be an over abundance of clickies abilities and action boosts, but only a few of them are useful. Problem is that quite a few of them are needed for higher tier abilities. Here are some useful rules when creating clickies:

1. An ability needs to scale well through its life: DPS is king, so even if abilities give buffs to defense, if the ability is only 1[W] hardly no one is going to use it. Abilities should start at 2[W]-4[W] for non epic. If you want to scale them better all you need to do is have the cool downs start out long and put other abilities further on in the tree/line that reduce/reset the cool downs. This is why the cleave\greatcleave\mom chain is so popular. Each clickie or ability that effect each other should be useful (imagine if u had to click unrelated or useless abilities to reset mom swing.. no one would use it).

An addition, defense abilities need to give 2-3x more a buff then a similar damage ability gives you in order to be worth spending points in the tree. Think about how big one point of damage is compared to one point of AC/PRR (since those systems have diminishing returns and dodge is capped).

2. Use abilities we already have as templates. Cleave and Great cleave even before they got a buff were super useful, what caused there widespread adoption was cool down rate being lowered. So why are you creating more abilities with long cool downs. It is not that I mind clicking on abilities...I love that. Give me stuff to do, that is why I play the game. What I do not like is having to look at my bar to figure out when I need to do something. You can fix this by a) making the cool downs more reasonable b)giving some kind of graphical effect when good abilities are ready.

Here is my wish list for abilities:

1. Start them off at level 1-2 so that people who want them can get them. I would say 2[W] at tier 1 and 3[W] at tier 2. But mostly make these damage early on.

2. Add effects to these abilities up the chain so if you want to take and invest in them, you can but they are not too powerful right away.

3. Try not to tie them to top tier buffs that a lot of people might want. Kensai is a great example of this. Everyone wants the centered weapon stance, but you should not have to go up two trees with multiple active abilities to get it. One active ability is fine (plus an action boost). Overall I like this chain but it has 4 active abilities to get a passive buff. Take one out, or change some of them to on proc abilities.

4. Before creating an action ability ask A) Would this be better as a proc B) Does it scale well C) Is there a similar ability that is going to replace it at epic levels and/or is it easier to get another ability that does the same thing from another chain. D) Does it help define that pre (like the meditative one does). E) Is it cool (like a good death), People love finishing moves, I am going to give people more finishing moves.

I am going to give some examples (Arrows mean it goes in a line)

Dual-Strike: Tier 2 Tempest 1/2/3[W] 2AP per level
10s Cooldown => Bleed Them: Adds d6/d8/d12 bleed damage to Dual Strike for 10secs can be stacked 2/4/6 times 2AP a level => Kill Em ALL: On Crit your dual strike has a 1/5/7& chance to allow you to attack 2 targets for 6 seconds. 2ap => Devasting Strike: Your Dual Strike now does +1[w] an addition to any levels you already have. On Vorpal your dual strike crit multiplier is increased by 1.

The above ability is useful, even at low levels but not too powerful, yet it scales well to for epic. I can give tons of other examples if needed.

Hutoth
04-15-2013, 09:26 AM
If the devs see three hundred /signeds and one /not signed, what do you think you'll see in Beta?


Probably something very close to the original plan. And a couple of bugs. And more crafting systems and new ingredients.

The trick is not to get upset. I'm told. :D

Taojeff
04-15-2013, 10:09 AM
Probably something very close to the original plan. And a couple of bugs. And more crafting systems and new ingredients.

The trick is not to get upset. I'm told. :D

That is correct. Because the Devs are game developers who try to do what is best for the game (at least as much as there allowed too). As opposed to a good deal of the posters/players who try to do what is best for their build.

IronClan
04-15-2013, 12:59 PM
They could solve the cool down overload problem pretty easy just make a Melee Stamina bar like the Ki bar that all tacticals and single shot attacks use a bit of. This would self limit the attacks without babysitting cool downs, and put all the info into one place right next to your hit points.

Say for example you use stunning blow twice in a row, but it drains half your bar and leaves you with not enough for another special for 10 or 12 seconds, if you stunning blow and then trip and then a one shot attack it regens a little faster because the trip uses only a quarter of the bar and the "smite" or "sunder" only uses 1/10th of the bar. It regens slowly but fast enough to allow a fun series of special attacks. Maybe one stun 1 strip and 3 or 4 smites per encounter before you need to lay off. While keeping you from spamming the best ones. So it regens while using normal attacks, and drops every time a special is used. Same principle as a Ki bar but with passive regen.

One of the reasons I don't mind playing a Monk is that I'm NOT watching cool downs, the Mionks Ki is governing what I can use for the most part.

HungarianRhapsody
04-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Queuing actions is pretty important if DDO moves towards a move button mashing experience.

SWTOR is pretty much like this and the ability to queue actions is an important aspect of the combat system.

So very much this.

Having to hit 14 different active combat buttons while maneuvering wouldn't be nearly as bad if hitting each of those 14 different active combat buttons would actually make those abilities trigger.

When I have to pay more attention to the cooldowns than I do to the actual combat, something is very wrong.

HungarianRhapsody
04-15-2013, 01:06 PM
That is correct. Because the Devs are game developers who try to do what is best for the game (at least as much as there allowed too). As opposed to a good deal of the posters/players who try to do what is best for their build.

http://unhindered.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/dumbledore_quote_w1-300x168.jpg

Miow
04-15-2013, 01:08 PM
I dunno i'm on the fence i like some but there is a point where too many is just too many...maybe if we could combo some of them together to make more powerful abilties.(as in take 3 buttons and turning it into one :P)

Cetus
04-15-2013, 01:23 PM
Karloe said it well. It all depends on the cooldown and power of the abilities we're clicking. I enjoy active play with abilities I find powerful enough to be worth the effort to use.

In other words, if its a bunch've mediocre abilities - then I won't bother with all that extra button mashing because chances are I'll have a momentum swing reset, and I'd just rather use that most of the time. I want abilities that I can hit meaningfully.

-Work like an adrenaline, so that it gives me control over which ability I can use it in conjunction with

-is non-dps related, and useful for a different purpose - mass stunning blow would be something that comes to mind, even if it doesn't even do that much damage - I'd still love it for the CC ability.

-An adrenaline like ability that allows my next trip attack to make the mob helpless on a successful hit

-An attack that enables me to prolong the timer on a CC effect on an already stunned mob by an additional 15 seconds on a successful attack. Fort save negates

-abilities that enable the resetting of certain abilities, much analogous to cleaves working on momentum swing. I thought that was a clever design.