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View Full Version : New Capstones = Requirement Fail?



Deadlock
04-14-2013, 03:38 AM
My first impressions of the new system were that this is exactly the sort of wide sweeping change that we have been hoping for.

The option to develop skills across multiple prestiges is excellent. For multi-classing, this limit of 3 class Trees may seem like a restriction, but so far I'm not seeing any major difficulties in getting a good build out of it.

Possible solutions to the number of trees problem could be:
1. Allow a 4th Tree on 2nd life characters
2. Allow a 5th Tree on 3rd life characters
3. Allow a 6th Tree on Completionist characters
4. Allow a 7th Tree on Triple Completionist characters

People who hate TRing will cry foul at this proposal, and that's up to them. I'm throwing it out there as a way for people who are determined to have access to an extra tree to get one.

Infact, I'd even go along with it if they just changed it so that Completionists and Triple Completionists get the extra trees, although I'm not sure how many people would actually benefit from that in reality.

But the big negative that I'm seeing right now is in the implementation of the new capstone enhancements.

Take Arcane Empowerment in the Arcanotechnician tree. This is the exact same Artificer capstone we currently have. At the moment it's requirements are 20 levels of Artificer and to have spent 74 AP.

In the current proposal it has the same 20 levels with only 40 AP spent, which makes sense as racial and class enhancements are now distinct. But you need to have taken all of the 4 Core Abilities in order to qualify for it (although it describes Critical Admixture as Panacea Admixture, I'm guessing that's a typo).

This necessity to take all of the Core Abilities is consistent in all of the other Class enhancements we currently have available.

Either make the Core abilities autogranted based on class levels and the number of AP spent in that tree, or remove the dependency on the Core abilities and the Capstone to give the player greater flexibility in how they build their toon.

I've enjoyed 3 Artificer past lives on my main, and haven't once tossed a pot. Being told I have to spend AP in abilities I'll never use doesn't turn me on.

chanw4
04-14-2013, 03:44 AM
My first impressions of the new system were that this is exactly the sort of wide sweeping change that we have been hoping for.

The option to develop skills across multiple prestiges is excellent. For multi-classing, this limit of 3 class Trees may seem like a restriction, but so far I'm not seeing any major difficulties in getting a good build out of it.

Possible solutions to the number of trees problem could be:
1. Allow a 4th Tree on 2nd life characters
2. Allow a 5th Tree on 3rd life characters
3. Allow a 6th Tree on Completionist characters
4. Allow a 7th Tree on Triple Completionist characters

People who hate TRing will cry foul at this proposal, and that's up to them. I'm throwing it out there as a way for people who are determined to have access to an extra tree to get one.

Infact, I'd even go along with it if they just changed it so that Completionists and Triple Completionists get the extra trees, although I'm not sure how many people would actually benefit from that in reality.

But the big negative that I'm seeing right now is in the implementation of the new capstone enhancements.

Take Arcane Empowerment in the Arcanotechnician tree. This is the exact same Artificer capstone we currently have. At the moment it's requirements are 20 levels of Artificer and to have spent 74 AP.

In the current proposal it has the same 20 levels with only 40 AP spent, which makes sense as racial and class enhancements are now distinct. But you need to have taken all of the 4 Core Abilities in order to qualify for it (although it describes Critical Admixture as Panacea Admixture, I'm guessing that's a typo).

This necessity to take all of the Core Abilities is consistent in all of the other Class enhancements we currently have available.

Either make the Core abilities autogranted based on class levels and the number of AP spent in that tree, or remove the dependency on the Core abilities and the Capstone to give the player greater flexibility in how they build their toon.

I've enjoyed 3 Artificer past lives on my main, and haven't once tossed a pot. Being told I have to spend AP in abilities I'll never use doesn't turn me on.

you won't have enough AP to max out 2 trees, let alone getting 4th - 7th trees...

To max out 1 tree (without the lv 20 capstone) as in getting the top teir enhancement, you need to spent at least 42 points in the tree.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-14-2013, 03:50 AM
you won't have enough AP to max out 2 trees, let alone getting 4th - 7th trees...

To max out 1 tree (without the lv 20 capstone) as in getting the top teir enhancement, you need to spent at least 42 points in the tree.

And there's no point in investing in a tree unless you're going to max it out? :rolleyes:

Some current builds rely on enhancements that are going to be found in 4-6+ trees. Although this method of accessing more trees is probably more cumbersome than it should be, at least it would be an option. Like you say, we're still limited by the total number of APs available, so where's the harm?

chanw4
04-14-2013, 04:03 AM
And there's no point in investing in a tree unless you're going to max it out? :rolleyes:

Some current builds rely on enhancements that are going to be found in 4-6+ trees. Although this method of accessing more trees is probably more cumbersome than it should be, at least it would be an option. Like you say, we're still limited by the total number of APs available, so where's the harm?

Im saying they need to reduce the cost of the AP and point spent for higher tier. using the same concept for ED is good except for ED, you have only 1 tree. In enhancement, you have your racial tree + 3 trees to choose from.

Deadlock
04-14-2013, 10:31 AM
you won't have enough AP to max out 2 trees, let alone getting 4th - 7th trees...

To max out 1 tree (without the lv 20 capstone) as in getting the top teir enhancement, you need to spent at least 42 points in the tree.

I had to re-read what I'd written a few times to make sure that I hadn't suggested maxing out more than one tree.

I'm not talking about gaining multiple capstones either.

I'm talking about the necessity to take all of the core abilities prescribed for that class in order to gain the capstone. I don't see this as a good or necessary thing in the first place.

Leave it as an option to the player to decide which abilities they want to take, and let them pick the Capstone if they spend 40 AP.

chanw4
04-14-2013, 10:41 AM
I had to re-read what I'd written a few times to make sure that I hadn't suggested maxing out more than one tree.

I'm not talking about gaining multiple capstones either.

I'm talking about the necessity to take all of the core abilities prescribed for that class in order to gain the capstone. I don't see this as a good or necessary thing in the first place.

Leave it as an option to the player to decide which abilities they want to take, and let them pick the Capstone if they spend 40 AP.

No you didn't, your suggestion was to have the ability to have more tree to choose enhancement from. The problem is the idea is good but its kinda not worth to implement since the gems are usually high up in the tier and the cost to gain such enhancement is too steep that having more tree to choose is just kinda pointless.

Its like adding more appetizer choice to the menu for a 5 course meal.

RedHost
04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
Its like adding more appetizer choice to the menu for a 5 course meal.
Uhm... typically in a five course meal the appetizer course ~will~ have more options than the salad, pre, or main course.

I do not like the idea of linking additional trees to TRing. TRing is an entirely outdated system. People can enjoy it all that they want, but with the rapid level cap increases and the massive power creep that makes the benefits of TRing nearly trivial, it is clearly no longer the game's future. I say this with only one character who isn't third life plus.

I quite agree with you on capstones, though. Having to buy the Core Class Enhancements seems like a fairly poor choice, but one that I could work with. Even if most of them do cost 2 points. But having to have the previous ones, which will often be something that you have no desire to actually have? That seems like a bit too much cost just to get to the capstone!

HungarianRhapsody
04-14-2013, 01:55 PM
My first impressions of the new system were that this is exactly the sort of wide sweeping change that we have been hoping for.

The option to develop skills across multiple prestiges is excellent. For multi-classing, this limit of 3 class Trees may seem like a restriction, but so far I'm not seeing any major difficulties in getting a good build out of it.

Possible solutions to the number of trees problem could be:
1. Allow a 4th Tree on 2nd life characters
2. Allow a 5th Tree on 3rd life characters
3. Allow a 6th Tree on Completionist characters
4. Allow a 7th Tree on Triple Completionist characters

People who hate TRing will cry foul at this proposal, and that's up to them. I'm throwing it out there as a way for people who are determined to have access to an extra tree to get one.

Infact, I'd even go along with it if they just changed it so that Completionists and Triple Completionists get the extra trees, although I'm not sure how many people would actually benefit from that in reality.

But the big negative that I'm seeing right now is in the implementation of the new capstone enhancements.

Take Arcane Empowerment in the Arcanotechnician tree. This is the exact same Artificer capstone we currently have. At the moment it's requirements are 20 levels of Artificer and to have spent 74 AP.

In the current proposal it has the same 20 levels with only 40 AP spent, which makes sense as racial and class enhancements are now distinct. But you need to have taken all of the 4 Core Abilities in order to qualify for it (although it describes Critical Admixture as Panacea Admixture, I'm guessing that's a typo).

This necessity to take all of the Core Abilities is consistent in all of the other Class enhancements we currently have available.

Either make the Core abilities autogranted based on class levels and the number of AP spent in that tree, or remove the dependency on the Core abilities and the Capstone to give the player greater flexibility in how they build their toon.

I've enjoyed 3 Artificer past lives on my main, and haven't once tossed a pot. Being told I have to spend AP in abilities I'll never use doesn't turn me on.

The new enhancement trees are so very back loaded currently that I expect most of us to spend 60+ points in one tree no matter how deeply multiclassed we make the character. I don't see having "only" three trees to put points into as a problem.

I do see changing a system that is currently front loaded on the power granted by enhancements to a system that is very much back loaded as a problem.