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karl_k0ch
04-13-2013, 05:07 AM
A common statement is that the new enhancement system emphasizes pure builds over multiclass ones. This thread is trying to discuss the impact of the new enhancement system on builds which have ranger splashed, or are splashed rangers.

After some general remarks, I will discuss some existing build archetypes, and list what they gain and lose with the new enhancement system. For now, I am focusing on builds using the tempest PrE. A discussion of AA, DS based builds and builds which splash ranger is going to follow at a later point.

I will call the enhancement system which is currently on the live servers "old". I will not go into deep detail in regards to, e.g., which damage bonuses are changed, but rather indicate if the new enhancement system support the same class "break points".

Toughness. The ranger didn't have access to a Toughness enhancement, so the change to +5 HP at every 5th class level is an overall boon for rangers, with a slight nudge towards pure builds. This particular choice of numbers does not exactly mesh with existing archetypes, as these are currently based around multiples of 6, not 5. A 12/6/2 will lose 5 HP over a pure build. (if the access to HP enhancements is the same) I think this is acceptable.

Tempest-Based builds
The old enhancements did not offer a Melee-friendly capstone, so it was easy to opt for a splash. New enhancements are less feat-demanding, so the new enhancements will allow more flexibility in this department; you don't need to take spring attack and mobility.
With classes associated to trees, a Drow could make a deep splash, and still get the full tempest tree (similar to Elf or HElf AAs under the current system), which is not possible under the current system.

18/1rog/1fgt or monk. Exploiter and Tempest Trapmonkey.

All the tempest enhancements are available except for the final core ability, the Tempest Capstone. The old Tempest III benefit of +5 Doublestrike is still available. Additionally, these build have access to some low-tier rogue/monk/fighter abilites.
Haste Boost is now a tier 2 tempest and probably thief acrobat ability, so one has to decide between Sprint Boost and Haste Boost. So on this split, you cannot have sprint boost and haste boost at the same time. Note that a pure Tempest is facing the same decision. One would have to splash deeper to get both.

15/1rog/4fgt. New-School 'Exploiter'.

A build which gives up Tempest III to make room for some feats, probably Maximize and Quicken, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. The new ranger enhancements not accessible are the tempest capstone and "Whirlwind", the core enhancement which has taken the +5% double strike bonus of tempest III.
1rog will probably not give access to Haste Boost. It's debatable if
Kensei Enhancements: Access to the first 2 core abilities, for a small damage bonus. Access to almost the full Kensei tree, with the exception of the top row.
SD Enhancements: this is where the toughness bonus is hiding. There is only little reason to take this tree.
Overall, I think that this kind of build gained a lot of extra damage via the access to the Kensei tree. Since there is a 3-tree-limit, the benefits of 1rog are getting smaller. Also, getting more HP from splashing fighters is made harder.


12ran/7rog/1mnk. The Prodigy.

Just like the 15/4/1, you don't have access to Tempest III, or it's equivalent core ability. 7 Rogue opens up the whole trees, and 3 core abilities of eg TA. Haste Boost is in the TA tree, but extra SA damage is in the Assassin Tree, so you could take Sprint Boost, Haste Boost and extra SA damage, if you don't take any of the other ranger trees.
I think that this build archetype does not suffer greatly.

12 ran/6pal/2fgt. Tempest Tank.
Similar reasoning as for the prodigy: Access to some paladin core abilities, and the whole paladin trees. If this is viable remains to be seen, and depends on the layout of the paladin trees. Since they are consolidating HotD and KotC into one tree, there is hope that the interesting tanking abilities (eg divine righteousness) can be found in the DoS tree.

Summary
So far, it looks like splashing is still an option for Tempests. There are some changes which make certain choices worse (rogue 1 splash, I am looking at you!), but it does not look like any of the discussed builds is made completely unviable.


Questions
Did I miss an important existing archetype?
Are there aspects I didn't consider here?

Fecerak
04-13-2013, 06:47 AM
Ranger is probably so far the class that does the best with multiclassing, although a kensei monk should also work decently (or kensei/ranger/monk, i.e. monster should be fine).
The reasoning to that is because ranger 6 is a really good breakpoint as it stands - you can get 3d6 SA and exposing strike from deepwood for only 12 AP (in addition to a rank of damage boost or w/e), and 10% offhand procs, dex to damage, and some other TWF bonuses in tempest, in addition to still getting ITWF and Manyshot from the ranger levels themselves.

I'm thinking 6 ranger is going to be a fairly strong multiclass option even after the pass.

12 Ranger is also still fairly strong - the deflect arrows+deflect arrows enhancement in tempest is fairly nice, 10% offhand strikes doesn't hurt, and DWS can give you another d6 of SA which is nice.

And going say 15/4/1 doesn't lose that much more than a 18/1/1 either (although the capstone is pretty good, so pure might be better than 18/1/1 now).

So I'm thinking overall in terms of multiclass options rangers are decently well made.

cru121
04-13-2013, 09:00 AM
how's a 15/4/1 with artificer looking?

karl_k0ch
04-13-2013, 09:55 AM
how's a 15/4/1 with artificer looking?

I have no idea. Can you elaborate on the build a bit more?

cru121
04-13-2013, 11:26 AM
well what. 15 ranger / 4 fighter / 1 artificer
artificer instead of rogue
magical training instead of 1d6 sneak
(or rather in combination with he rogue dilettante)

(arti 4 / ftr 1 is a variant that loses 1 feat+1 str for elemental weapons and stronger scroll healing)

UurlockYgmeov
04-13-2013, 11:27 AM
yeah .. the new exploiter.... ranged mastery....

Arty 14 Ranger 6 - the new shattermantle/dispelling/firey shot plus a couple others....

combine with fury of the wild and the monchery ideas....

kingfisher
04-13-2013, 03:09 PM
with the FE enh in DW you have to take 2 ranger trees at least, just to get close to what you were best at before. leaving only one tree for one of your 2 splash classes.

its dumb, no point to it at all, besides forcing their playerbase to buy hearts to fix what they **** up. you can pour honey on a dog turd all day, but its still just a turd.

Synthetic
04-13-2013, 10:57 PM
with the FE enh in DW you have to take 2 ranger trees at least, just to get close to what you were best at before. leaving only one tree for one of your 2 splash classes.

its dumb, no point to it at all, besides forcing their playerbase to buy hearts to fix what they **** up. you can pour honey on a dog turd all day, but its still just a turd.

You can pickup twf damage enhancements rather the FE damage enhancements they work against everything not just your 4 3 or 2 FE. Slightly less damage but it's always in use compared to FE enhancements - unless you're not TWFing.

Hardly a dog turd.

Cheers

karl_k0ch
04-14-2013, 04:18 AM
well what. 15 ranger / 4 fighter / 1 artificer
artificer instead of rogue
magical training instead of 1d6 sneak
(or rather in combination with he rogue dilettante)

(arti 4 / ftr 1 is a variant that loses 1 feat+1 str for elemental weapons and stronger scroll healing)

Unless I am missing some kind of fundamental interaction, there is not a grave difference between the other 15/4/1-splits. It basically boils down to the question if the tier 1 from the level 1 splash abilities are good enough to justify using a tree slot for them. For a bastard sword or DAxe user, it looks like a low-level battle engineer is on par with a low level kensei.

There is a general issue, though: The old Tempest enhancements were very feat-intensive, but light on the APs. This is not the case anymore and might impede splashing or splashing into temptest.

kingfisher
04-14-2013, 10:24 PM
You can pickup twf damage enhancements rather the FE damage enhancements they work against everything not just your 4 3 or 2 FE. Slightly less damage but it's always in use compared to FE enhancements - unless you're not TWFing.

Hardly a dog turd.

Cheers
that has nothing to do with FE enh being a core ranger ability. period. sticking them in a tree is stupid. glass half full it all you want its still a turd.