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View Full Version : So... Anyone else with a dead build now?



DeafeningWhisper
04-12-2013, 11:01 PM
My Kensai III AA, I logged into Lamland to see what my elf ftr18 arty 1 ranger 1 would look like with the new enhancement system.

I can no longer get Kensai enhanced crit range AND slaying arrows (both 41 needed into a tree), pretty much making the whole point of the build mute, anyone else see the core of their build gone?

redspecter23
04-12-2013, 11:54 PM
Kind of ironic that a system intended to simplify and provide more options is actually more complicated and leads to fewer character design choices overall.

I really hope Turbine sticks to that original goal, realizes that this is looking like it does not accomplish that goal and takes some feedback from the players. There is some potential in a tree system, but I fear that some major changes need to be made and I think at this time Turbine is looking at minor tweaks only.

I don't have any toons that will be wrecked by this new system as my main is finishing of his last few TR's currently. Rather than adapt a current build to the new model, I'll be looking at my options once the enhancement pass is finalized and build a toon from the top down.

Stanley_Nicholas
04-13-2013, 12:02 AM
I haven't gotten to test it yet, but the only thing they needed to do was give the old enhancement system a more intuitive interface but keep the functionality the same. Instead it appears they're changing the interface and dramatically altering the functionality at the same time, attempting to fix what wasn't broken and breaking things in the process.

DeafeningWhisper
04-13-2013, 12:26 AM
I haven't gotten to test it yet, but the only thing they needed to do was give the old enhancement system a more intuitive interface but keep the functionality the same. Instead it appears they're changing the interface and dramatically altering the functionality at the same time, attempting to fix what wasn't broken and breaking things in the process.

What I don't understand is that rather then make the newly created skills in the trees be at the top of it, they put them mostly at the mid/bottom lvl, effectively making sure no old, muticlass build survives the change...

While I'll try to adapt to the changes, I foresee many a deleted toon for me, call me jaded but I'm not paying Turbine by buying +5 hearts of wood to removed dead weight class level as a "thanks" for their new enhancement system.

Vellrad
04-13-2013, 12:40 AM
Who got killed?

1. WIZARD SPLASHES
Absolutely pointless now, better take monk or ftr splash instead.

2. ORIGINAL MULTICLASSING[b/]
With 3 tree limit and removal many enhancements, multiclassing for enancements (taking ftr for haste boost, wizard for impulse etc) is no longer possible. Also, many famous multiclass builds will probably be worthless, or at best, heavily nerfed.

3. [B]NON HJEALBOT/NANNYBOT CLERICS
With new 80 points into healing tree to have same spellpower as before, mentioned multiclass nerf, and removal of enancements like divine might, clerics are now hireling class.

Jay203
04-13-2013, 02:37 AM
pretty much all multiclass builds that makes uses of a lot of things from each of the class got screwed over

HuneyMunster
04-13-2013, 04:19 AM
Who got killed?

1. WIZARD SPLASHES
Absolutely pointless now, better take monk or ftr splash instead.

2. ORIGINAL MULTICLASSING[b/]
With 3 tree limit and removal many enhancements, multiclassing for enancements (taking ftr for haste boost, wizard for impulse etc) is no longer possible. Also, many famous multiclass builds will probably be worthless, or at best, heavily nerfed.

3. [B]NON HJEALBOT/NANNYBOT CLERICS
With new 80 points into healing tree to have same spellpower as before, mentioned multiclass nerf, and removal of enancements like divine might, clerics are now hireling class.

Cant log into Lam atm stuck on waiting...

So i should see a vast improvement for my 18Cleric/1Monk/1Wiz evoker, necro and light offensive caster hireling then???

Violith
04-13-2013, 08:34 AM
bug report it. on each build you have that isnt able to be rebuilt, most of my toons are pure, or their classes arent implimented so I cant test them, but next month when they have all the classes/races are in I plan on trying to rebuild any of the multiclasses I have used before / want to try out. and if they cant be reproduced its getting bug reported.


personally I believe that each prestige tree should only have 41 AP costs total if not less. (40 in tree/core + 1AP capstone), the AP requirements (40 for t5 is ridiculous especially when t5 abilities costs 2 AP each, you end up spending more then 50aP in some trees to reproduce a fraction of what you had in live (AA is a good example of this)) And AP cost (everything costs 2 AP, sure nothing costs more then that now, but it still hurts alot of things).

Menace13
04-13-2013, 09:07 AM
Rage.

Seriously. Only reason to play DDO is the deep character customization tools. Don't dumb them down for newer players.

Davelfus
04-13-2013, 09:38 AM
pretty much all multiclass builds that makes uses of a lot of things from each of the class got screwed over

multiclass? hells my stalwart defender can't even stay in stance with her great axe xD

can't wait to see how screwed up my kensai ninja will be (waiting to test this last one when ninja spy is avaiable)

irnimnode
04-13-2013, 09:47 AM
at first i was like this is not good but as i worked with it more it is not a bad system not perfect but not as bad as some make it out to be. My cleric's came out the same as they were a good battle cleric the othere got somewhat aof an improvement ( 1 is a cleric 19 fighter 1 the othere cleric 19 ranger 1) my fighter 17 rouge3 major improvement my ranger 17 rouge 3 had to be done over 2 times to get it right but i lke what i ended up with ( i really like the new arrows). My arti yeah nice . This only account for 1/3 of my toons. Some are saying the muilticlass got left to the way side I think you are jumping the gun a bit. They are only doing arti cleric fighters and rangers that is only 1/3 of the class's. It is early and I am going to set and reset mine till i get what i like. I only have 3 pure class out of 20 !barbian ! fighter and 1 arti the rest are multiclass mostly 19 wiz/sorc/cleric/favsoul and 1fighteror 1 monk some 17fighter/ranger and 3rouge and 1 is a 16rouge 3fighter and 1ranger and a druid 19 ranger 1. My choices for muilticlass are for the simple reason of weapons you don't go hunting a bear with a stick. So far none are broken for the ones that i have gotten to set the rest are a wait and see.My advice is read things over very closely before you accept and if it dose not come out right reset and try agian. I think some were expecting it to be more then what it is. It is not perfect,but it is an improvement and it is in the early stages so work with it and read all of it do not just click and go

Carpone
04-13-2013, 09:57 AM
Monkchers are dead with the removal of 10k stars.

Lerincho
04-13-2013, 10:20 AM
Calling a character dead after only about 45% of the enhancement change incorporated would be the equivalent to Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling because of rain. Considering that only racial and a few classes have been released, let's keep it in touch with some semblance of some kind of organized insanity.

DeafeningWhisper
04-13-2013, 10:22 AM
at first i was like this is not good but as i worked with it more it is not a bad system not perfect but not as bad as some make it out to be. My cleric's came out the same as they were a good battle cleric the othere got somewhat aof an improvement ( 1 is a cleric 19 fighter 1 the othere cleric 19 ranger 1) my fighter 17 rouge3 major improvement my ranger 17 rouge 3 had to be done over 2 times to get it right but i lke what i ended up with ( i really like the new arrows). My arti yeah nice . This only account for 1/3 of my toons. Some are saying the muilticlass got left to the way side I think you are jumping the gun a bit. They are only doing arti cleric fighters and rangers that is only 1/3 of the class's. It is early and I am going to set and reset mine till i get what i like. I only have 3 pure class out of 20 !barbian ! fighter and 1 arti the rest are multiclass mostly 19 wiz/sorc/cleric/favsoul and 1fighteror 1 monk some 17fighter/ranger and 3rouge and 1 is a 16rouge 3fighter and 1ranger and a druid 19 ranger 1. My choices for muilticlass are for the simple reason of weapons you don't go hunting a bear with a stick. So far none are broken for the ones that i have gotten to set the rest are a wait and see.My advice is read things over very closely before you accept and if it dose not come out right reset and try agian. I think some were expecting it to be more then what it is. It is not perfect,but it is an improvement and it is in the early stages so work with it and read all of it do not just click and go

My bardcher which is my main an favorite toon is pretty much dead too, I would need around 120/140 aps to get what I have now.

I need to spend around 15/20 aps to unlock AA in the racial tree, then 41 in the racial AA tree which leaves me with next to nothing for my bard skills, it's not DDO anymore it's "generic MMO number 2574, were you either specialize untill it hurts or you just wasted your time making your toon".

Aussir
04-13-2013, 11:28 AM
All my builds are pretty much dead since all, except ONE, are multi-class. And my sorcerer is dead too because of that **** they're doing with spellcraft, spellpower and heal for negative energy.

All I have to say is: thanks for nothing, Turbine. :mad:

Ryiah
04-13-2013, 12:06 PM
Calling a character dead after only about 45% of the enhancement change incorporated would be the equivalent to Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling because of rain.

Especially considering the developers have already stated that AP costs are purposefully high to begin with and will be getting reduced. So many people overreacting and spreading drama though I suppose that's part of why I like the forums.

Menace13
04-13-2013, 12:15 PM
Especially considering the developers have already stated that AP costs are purposefully high to begin with and will be getting reduced. So many people overreacting and spreading drama though I suppose that's part of why I like the forums.
Sky fell.

I don't see a way unless every and all enhancements max cost is 1ap.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 12:56 PM
Especially considering the developers have already stated that AP costs are purposefully high to begin with and will be getting reduced. So many people overreacting and spreading drama though I suppose that's part of why I like the forums.It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

DeafeningWhisper
04-13-2013, 01:11 PM
It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

^ This, without a general tree that count towards other trees there is simply no way under the current system to have multiclass anywhere close to how it is live, I'm saying my multiclass builds are dead because the new system is created in such a way as to penalize anyone not maxing a single, pigeonholed class tree.

EnjoyTheJourney
04-13-2013, 01:35 PM
Rage.

Seriously. Only reason to play DDO is the deep character customization tools. Don't dumb them down for newer players.What's being done is not a dumbing down for newer players; at least, if that was the devs' intention, then they have an odd way of going about doing that.

The devs are adding more complexity (with trees now, and within-tree pathways and AP spending requirements, to get to good enhancements, plus new / revised skills that interact with feats and the enhancement system) onto an already very complex system, which makes it less new player friendly.

Then, instead of easing off in other ways that the system used to restrict player choice, to leave build diversity in a better place or at least the same place, the new, extra sources of complexity further restrict build diversity, end of story.

Cade_Wells
04-13-2013, 01:38 PM
erm how can people say 10k stars is dead when the monk enchancements aren't even being shown yet???? or am i totally missing something?

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 01:56 PM
erm how can people say 10k stars is dead when the monk enchancements aren't even being shown yet???? or am i totally missing something?Those with monk splashes can see (but not interact with) the monk tree, meaning they can read the "rank 1" description of all the monk abilities.

The monk tree they can see is full to the brim; no open holes where missing lines could be added.

mystafyi
04-13-2013, 02:17 PM
Especially considering the developers have already stated that AP costs are purposefully high to begin with and will be getting reduced. So many people overreacting and spreading drama though I suppose that's part of why I like the forums.

I am sure it was stated by varg in the lamma chat that AP costs would NOT go down. sorry cant link that.

Menace13
04-13-2013, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE=EnjoyTheJourney;4983211

Then, instead of easing off in other ways that the system used to restrict player choice, to leave build diversity in a better place or at least the same place, the new, extra sources of complexity further restrict build diversity, end of story.[/QUOTE]

Build diversity is a complex feature or it would be generic builds. The new trees I have seen published here are all doing less for more, totally omitting splash features, or increasing their total ap spent prerequisites, eliminating enhances, forcing abilities into Int based skill points.

They rolled out something that many people dislike in alpha, which is the opposite reaction of like, obv. A bad change is called a downgrade. Shouldn't everyone be excited for and look forward to the new upgrades to a product line?

AZgreentea
04-13-2013, 02:43 PM
Meh. Builds come and go. When I started playing you would have been laughed off the forums if you had told someone you were going to splash Monk instead of Rogue. Tanking had everything to do with TWF DPS. Reincarnation? Fogetaboutit! If you wanted to fix your newly gimped build you had to limp to lvl 20 and hope to TR or delete and re roll.

Now, thanks to things like reincarnation, an enhancement pass is an exciting opportunity to rebuild the old, instead of total destruction of all your hard work.

You kids these days have it easy...

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:48 PM
Kind of ironic that a system intended to simplify and provide more options is actually more complicated and leads to fewer character design choices overall.



I see fewer multi-class design choices, but I'm also seeing more design choices within a class than previously. Hard to say if there will be more or fewer choices in the end because it is still extremely premature to make a final judgement when we've only seen the tip of the Alpha.

I'm sure the cookie cutter min/maxers will dislike these changes the most. They've certainly been the most vocal so far.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:59 PM
Build diversity is a complex feature or it would be generic builds. The new trees I have seen published here are all doing less for more, totally omitting splash features, or increasing their total ap spent prerequisites, eliminating enhances, forcing abilities into Int based skill points.



You aren't looking hard enough. Or at least not looking at the new thing with new eyes.


People screamed and screamed that monk splashes were dead after U14 or 17 (can't remember which) and then you had monkchers cropping up and still had clonks running around. Shiradi was a HORRIBLE destiny only useful for rangers, now Shiradi casters are OP. Etc, etc, etc.


Rather than complaining about how the new thing isn't the old thing or what you wanted the new thing to be, it would be constructive to participate in the enhancement threads with what SPECIFICALLY you like and don't like about the new system. It isn't going away, that's for sure, so rather than vague rants and complaints, you MIGHT have a chance to affect the system with constructive SPECIFIC feedback.

Sonos
04-13-2013, 03:01 PM
Meh. Builds come and go. When I started playing you would have been laughed off the forums if you had told someone you were going to splash Monk instead of Rogue. Tanking had everything to do with TWF DPS. Reincarnation? Fogetaboutit! If you wanted to fix your newly gimped build you had to limp to lvl 20 and hope to TR or delete and re roll.

Now, thanks to things like reincarnation, an enhancement pass is an exciting opportunity to rebuild the old, instead of total destruction of all your hard work.

You kids these days have it easy...

Get off my lawn! *shakes fist.

What you are talking about is progress(reincarnation). What the rest of the thread is pondering is regress. Probably more accurately, a paradigm shift, but to some people's favorite builds it seems regressive so far. Multi-class is a huge boon to keeping players around for the long term. I do appreciate the buffs to classes that needed them, but AP for some of the established multi builds seems thus far to be quite spendy and un-achievable. I'm not casting my vote this early in the game but so far the weather outlook looks partly sunny with a chance of doom(for some).


Personally, I would be more comfortable with a toggle menu that let's you use the old enhancement system and if you are new and or enjoy some of what the new system has to offer then you could select it. This obviously would not work but how sweet it would be if you wanted to be a pure ranger, use the new system, if you enjoyed your helf AA monk archer build use the old.

Airgeadlam
04-13-2013, 03:01 PM
Several of my builds, as far as I could see in Lama. When I heard of "enhancement pass" with "skill trees" and such, I thought of something along the lines of EDs. Same basic enhancements with a new look, maybe one or two changes here and there to refresh some race or another. Not a "Let's build a new generic game" thing.

I know it's an alpha, but since the alpha is what I saw, it is based upon the alpha's features which I will comment. General taste? I mostly dislike it.

Felt a lot WoW-like, and by that I mean... When I tried WoW, years ago, I found its skill trees with lots of skills and this and that. "Choices! That's good, lots of choices to build your toon". It was a trap. If you want a viable InsertToonHere then you HAVE to pick this, and this, and that, and also that and NOTHING else. Period. See all the other options? Cosmetic ones. Do not touch. And the impression the alpha gave to me was something like that. "Let's see the stalwart defender options"... S&B only. Great, there goes my monk/fighter and my fighter. Let's hope DoS enhancements don't work that way too, or there goes my paladin. Also, the Stalwart line was in my thought for the last life of my main toon and now it is out of the equation as well. So... 4 toons in a row.

Haven't checked the cleric enhancements, but some people are worried about (again) clerics being forced to "heal only" role. If that's the case, then my cleric (wanted to TR into cleric splash) is screwed as well.

Spring boost/Haste boost/etc missing? That's not a great thing either. Several of the enhancements I had to take to progress in the trees were useless to my builds. I was being forced to select things I didn't want, just to reach the "Need X points spent" quota. Didn't like some of the AP costs either.

It is too soon to decide, but well, if this scenario, without changes (so just a hypothesis) i would just let my vip expire, not buying the new expansion, and searching for another thing to play. Let's hope they think twice what they're doing-

DrNuegebauer
04-13-2013, 03:05 PM
making the whole point of the build mute

I think you meant 'moot'.

Unless the point of the build is not to talk?


But yes, agreed with the basic premise of the thread, too many build points required in trees. Should be opening up MORE customisation with the pass, not LESS.

Theolin
04-13-2013, 03:18 PM
It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

^^ this

And the new way spell power is working .... no matter how I try I end up with about 1/2 of what I had before with more cost (multi class builds)

arkonas
04-13-2013, 04:22 PM
i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.

we mentioned rangers didnt get devotion then guess what later they said it would be included. so instead of complaining about something. lets help make the system better. I have done my part have you or are you the types just to not say anything? i love how everyone says multiclass is dead and you havent even seen the polished versions yet. *face palm* lets wait for all of it to be out with all abilities and reduced costs then say something.

Vargouille Vargouille is offline
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We intend to restore positive spellpower (devotion) to Rangers in some form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
I see you need to have 5 levels of ranger to qualify for tier 5. what does that translate into as far as what minimum level you be at that time? 18 like current Tempest III?
Tier 5 requires roughly level 10-11.

SqueakofDoom SqueakofDoom is offline
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Default A quick update on the Enhancements
Thank you for all of your feedback so far, and please keep telling us what you think! I am excited to have so many people contributing to this effort. This is a HUGE change to the game, so your comments are important. There are many ways to give us your feedback: The forums, Surveys, and Bugs (please remember to list Lamannia as the server when reporting bugs).

I would like to comment on some feedback I have observed:

• Yes, the restrictions currently in place are limiting. We need your feedback to help us determine what needs to be adjusted. Obviously finding the correct balance of freedoms and restrictions is important, and we want you to help us find that balance. Go here to view the current restrictions (I will keep this page updated as things get adjusted). Fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey and the General Racial Enhancement Survey! Let us know which particular restrictions are the most painful for you! I am using these surveys to compare your feedback on the restrictions from week to week.

• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system. Please take the time to see what you can create with what is currently available. I know you have spent a lot of time building your characters on Live. I would appreciate it if you would take the same care and effort while testing out this new system.

• We know that the new Enhancements change many things for you. You should receive a Free Lesser Reincarnation when the old Enhancements are automatically reset so that you can respec your character. We wanted to verify that this system works, so characters on Lamannia (those with old Enhancements that got reset) should have a Free LR.

• BUG the BUGS! We have a BRAND NEW SYSTEM! It does not eat bugs like the old one. You should be burying Gazebo in bugs. Your bugs are very important to us and will help us make the Enhancements better! A few additional notes on bugs:

All Racial Core Enhancements SHOULD NOT require any points spent in the tree to obtain them (ie: at level 20 you should be able to spend points on all Racial Core Enhancements). If your Racial Tree Core Enhancements do require points spent in the tree, please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement is giving you a much larger bonus on live please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement seems too expensive, please bug it!
Essentially, If you think it could possibly be a bug PLEASE BUG IT! Sure, some things may be working as intended, but it is far better for us to look into a bug and make that decision than for us to never hear about the bug that is really a bug.


Smiles,
Squeak

So lets just point whatever we think isnt right. actually wait for a new build before jumping the gun.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 05:16 PM
It's right there in your quotes:
• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system.Why can't "the build you currently have on live" be recreated? Because there's too much build diversity on live to support them all. If you pare down your various builds to their essences, you can make a similar build in the new enhancements. There's just fewer ways to do it.

DeafeningWhisper
04-13-2013, 05:41 PM
i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.

we mentioned rangers didnt get devotion then guess what later they said it would be included. so instead of complaining about something. lets help make the system better. I have done my part have you or are you the types just to not say anything? i love how everyone says multiclass is dead and you havent even seen the polished versions yet. *face palm* lets wait for all of it to be out with all abilities and reduced costs then say something.

Vargouille Vargouille is offline
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Default
We intend to restore positive spellpower (devotion) to Rangers in some form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
I see you need to have 5 levels of ranger to qualify for tier 5. what does that translate into as far as what minimum level you be at that time? 18 like current Tempest III?
Tier 5 requires roughly level 10-11.

SqueakofDoom SqueakofDoom is offline
Lamannia Coordinator

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The End of the Universe - The view is great!
Posts: 258
SqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the Noted
Default A quick update on the Enhancements
Thank you for all of your feedback so far, and please keep telling us what you think! I am excited to have so many people contributing to this effort. This is a HUGE change to the game, so your comments are important. There are many ways to give us your feedback: The forums, Surveys, and Bugs (please remember to list Lamannia as the server when reporting bugs).

I would like to comment on some feedback I have observed:

• Yes, the restrictions currently in place are limiting. We need your feedback to help us determine what needs to be adjusted. Obviously finding the correct balance of freedoms and restrictions is important, and we want you to help us find that balance. Go here to view the current restrictions (I will keep this page updated as things get adjusted). Fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey and the General Racial Enhancement Survey! Let us know which particular restrictions are the most painful for you! I am using these surveys to compare your feedback on the restrictions from week to week.

• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system. Please take the time to see what you can create with what is currently available. I know you have spent a lot of time building your characters on Live. I would appreciate it if you would take the same care and effort while testing out this new system.

• We know that the new Enhancements change many things for you. You should receive a Free Lesser Reincarnation when the old Enhancements are automatically reset so that you can respec your character. We wanted to verify that this system works, so characters on Lamannia (those with old Enhancements that got reset) should have a Free LR.

• BUG the BUGS! We have a BRAND NEW SYSTEM! It does not eat bugs like the old one. You should be burying Gazebo in bugs. Your bugs are very important to us and will help us make the Enhancements better! A few additional notes on bugs:

All Racial Core Enhancements SHOULD NOT require any points spent in the tree to obtain them (ie: at level 20 you should be able to spend points on all Racial Core Enhancements). If your Racial Tree Core Enhancements do require points spent in the tree, please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement is giving you a much larger bonus on live please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement seems too expensive, please bug it!
Essentially, If you think it could possibly be a bug PLEASE BUG IT! Sure, some things may be working as intended, but it is far better for us to look into a bug and make that decision than for us to never hear about the bug that is really a bug.


Smiles,
Squeak

So lets just point whatever we think isnt right. actually wait for a new build before jumping the gun.

You *do* realize this is my feedback on what I know is only the alpha right? I would *love* to give feedback on the more thought out, less restrictive, multiclass friendly polished builds, but guess what it's not available...

I can only speak on what I can see, and what I can see kills my builds. I want the devs and player to know this so they can react *NOW* as to fix this in the future versions of the enhancement pass.


P.S. On what is quoted above, Varg speaks of the racial core not requiring AP spent and not racial class, meaning the 17 to unlock it may be WAI.

smatt
04-13-2013, 06:39 PM
Calling a character dead after only about 45% of the enhancement change incorporated would be the equivalent to Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling because of rain. Considering that only racial and a few classes have been released, let's keep it in touch with some semblance of some kind of organized insanity.

Here.... I'll put it terms a Texan will understand.... When I see a steers tail go up, and the stuff startin' to flow... I know before it hits the ground what it is... Let alone having to actually step in it :D

Sorry, I understand it's VERY early.... But even at this juncture, it appears a bunch of Devs seem to think a major overhaul of ALL builds within DDO is the way to go.... I highly doubt a single build or build theory will hold true. It will chase more players away than it will attract, plain and simple... But hey, I could be wrong... They could actually go back to the drawing board... :rolleyes:

Lerincho
04-13-2013, 07:02 PM
Here.... I'll put it terms a Texan will understand.... When I see a steers tail go up, and the stuff startin' to flow... I know before it hits the ground what it is... Let alone having to actually step in it :D

Sorry, I understand it's VERY early.... But even at this juncture, it appears a bunch of Devs seem to think a major overhaul of ALL builds within DDO is the way to go.... I highly doubt a single build or build theory will hold true. It will chase more players away than it will attract, plain and simple... But hey, I could be wrong... They could actually go back to the drawing board... :rolleyes:

And this is different than the first enhancement overhaul how? This is different than the introduction of prestige classes how? If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt. If you are a flavor of the month type then it is past time for you to find another game. D&D has always been founded on a simple principle, there are consequences to every choice; whether good or bad there is always a direct cause and effect. If would be a very poor enhancement overhaul if not every build was effected, period.

You can talk down to someone else, but unless you are going to come with some actual facts, we will not be playing your game.

Sonos
04-13-2013, 07:40 PM
i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.
/snipped



Dearest white knight. What is being voiced is a reaction to this "alpha" model. One can choose to ignore it or take heed.

While certainly there will be changes, don't be fooled by "alpha", if it is on Lammania it is near close to what it will be, again with SOME tweaks notwithstanding. This IS the time to complain and voice dissent. Doing it later is usually too late; if it is not already for some things.

PS it's not all doom. There are some very exciting things in there to be certain.

Kakashi67
04-13-2013, 08:25 PM
Nope.

Then again, for my play style, they could remove enhancements completely and I'd still be able to play.

But I do so enjoy forum drama.

smatt
04-14-2013, 08:21 AM
And this is different than the first enhancement overhaul how? This is different than the introduction of prestige classes how? If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt. If you are a flavor of the month type then it is past time for you to find another game. D&D has always been founded on a simple principle, there are consequences to every choice; whether good or bad there is always a direct cause and effect. If would be a very poor enhancement overhaul if not every build was effected, period.

You can talk down to someone else, but unless you are going to come with some actual facts, we will not be playing your game.

I didn't alk down to you, it was a joke....

I've played through every single change in this game with little complaint over the last 6+ years, and I've NEVER been a flavor of the month moron. My complaints ahve typically been around the general over all playability of the game. IE: Lag, broken UI, broken chat as we have now. And of course every build will be affected.. But do most have to feel a negative impact? Does the cleric clas have to be pigeon hoeld into heal/buff bot, with the removal of most/all offensive casting enhancement lines? Look at what they did to stalwart.... Or do you understand the impacts of such changes?

You can kiss up all you want.... I saw this a long time ago and expressed concerns back then about what they were going to do with this "enhancement pass"...... Yes, I knwo who's input has gone into the early parts of this, I'm not impressed. In a roundabout way, it will be more of "Use the store to get what you want" The pigeon holing of more classes into very specific roles, with less build choices.

In edit: It's funny how you take a joke made by me... And try to turn it into an insult..... And then you TRY to insult me by insinuating that I'm a flavor of the month build player.

Here's the main point... Yes there's no question that there will be SOME rebalancing with such a sweepign overhaul of the enhancement system. BUT... How neccesary is it too completely wipe out so many builds at thsi juncture in the game? I know the forever dreamers try and do everything they can to keep the "DDO will suddenly become a super popular game, if only we made X change"... Pipe dream to say the least....

Ryiah
04-14-2013, 11:50 AM
If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt.

Exactly. None of my characters will become useless from the enhancement pass because they never really had builds set in stone. I always made modifications to their feats, enhancements, etc as new changes were released. If anything these changes will likely result in improvements for my characters.

smatt
04-14-2013, 12:42 PM
You *do* realize this is my feedback on what I know is only the alpha right? I would *love* to give feedback on the more thought out, less restrictive, multiclass friendly polished builds, but guess what it's not available...

I can only speak on what I can see, and what I can see kills my builds. I want the devs and player to know this so they can react *NOW* as to fix this in the future versions of the enhancement pass.


P.S. On what is quoted above, Varg speaks of the racial core not requiring AP spent and not racial class, meaning the 17 to unlock it may be WAI.

Oh stop it with reality.... It messes with the "It's how they designed it, so it MUST be great folks.....

Flavilandile
04-14-2013, 12:50 PM
My Kensai III AA, I logged into Lamland to see what my elf ftr18 arty 1 ranger 1 would look like with the new enhancement system.

I can no longer get Kensai enhanced crit range AND slaying arrows (both 41 needed into a tree), pretty much making the whole point of the build mute, anyone else see the core of their build gone?

Well consider that Clerics can't be Radiant Servant II and get back their current Cleric Capstone ( RSII requires 42 in the Healing tree, and Divine Intervention requires 40 in the Protection tree ).

So a Pure Cleric Build ends up broken or nerfed, or gimped, or whatever you want to call it...
Consequences on Multiclassing will be... Interesting, but I suspect that if it stay that way it's going to kill a lot of builds... if not seriously damage DDO.

Sonos
04-14-2013, 02:04 PM
Just want to avoid this as much as possible(great game for it's time but not what long term players of DDO really want):

http://vividgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/golden-axe-2.jpg

smatt
04-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Well consider that Clerics can't be Radiant Servant II and get back their current Cleric Capstone ( RSII requires 42 in the Healing tree, and Divine Intervention requires 40 in the Protection tree ).

So a Pure Cleric Build ends up broken or nerfed, or gimped, or whatever you want to call it...
Consequences on Multiclassing will be... Interesting, but I suspect that if it stay that way it's going to kill a lot of builds... if not seriously damage DDO.


Well to be fair.. They did say the AP costs were set high at this point and would very likely go down. My concern is more all the missing offensive casting enhancements for clerics... Yes, completely missing... With no comments on whether it's intended, will be left that way, unfinished, overlooked, etc...... To me that's removal of the core aspects.... Not simply a power curve adjustment. There's no doubt that included with this enhancement pass there will be adjustments up and down the scale as far as the overall power of various classes/builds. Which of course will cause great rage amongst many... But this highlights one of the biggest mistakes the DDO Devs have been makign for a long time. That's leaving overpowered, exploitable, tweakable, functions in the game for far too long. Allowing players to get used to and dependant upon them....

At least on the face of it, as they say they're starting low and working up intentionally so as not to have ot "take toys away" as the enhancements move forward within the development process. Let's hope that things like the missing divine offensive enhancements are actually going to show up...

Of course according to someone else.. A pure 20 cleric is a "Flavor of the month build" :rolleyes:

I've always been more of a pure class build type..... In that spalsh builds are far too powerful, as comparatively speaking... BUT.... I don't think they should destroy multi-classing either....


We shall see when more is revealed....

BOgre
04-14-2013, 02:41 PM
it is past time for you to find another game.

What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

smatt
04-14-2013, 02:49 PM
What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

Exactly.... While I do see that at least the Dev team recognizes the possible impacts of such a sweeping change within the core of the game, and are putting it out there VERY early in the development cycle. What I'm seeing so far from it is something that is going to frustrate enough of the current players long and short term, they will simply leave....With zero benefit for a game as old as DDO to draw in a significantly larger portion of new players.

Hey who knows though... Only time will tell as this process matures... But at this point I stand by "What I can see is manure".....

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 02:51 PM
<snipped due to rudeness> This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.



Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 03:09 PM
Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

Again, I'm "spouting doom" as you call it to make sure people (devs and player a like) know what I see as a step in the wrong direction concerning the pass.

The sooner we point out the flaws the more time they have to fix them or the more time we get to get used to the changes or leave for other games as you seem to want.

Also please stop with the "flavor of the month" stuff, even pure builds are poorer in this implementation of the pass...


P.S. How is wait and see how the final version looks like before "spouting doom" gonna help in any way shape or form? They want our feedback *now* when it's ready to be released will far too late to start pointing out the flaws and implementing change, all the "very progressive long term thinking" (by the way you spelled "wishful thinking" wrong here) won't change that...

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 03:15 PM
P.S. How is wait and see how the final version looks like before "spouting doom" gonna help in any way shape or form? They want our feedback *now* when it's ready to be released will far too late to start pointing out the flaws and implementing change, all the "very progressive long term thinking" (by the way you spelled "wishful thinking" wrong here) won't change that...

Doom does not equal feedback. It provides nothing concrete that the QA or Development team can work with. BY all mean provide feedback, but make it constructive feedback that provides them something to work with. "Well all my characters are useless." provides them with nothing. Perhaps if people spent more time actually testing instead of learning the quickest/simplest ways to do things in this game, perhaps quality of play would be higher. As it is, people get to Lamannia purely to learn the quest and how to get the goodies first, not to test and help find bugs.

Want to provide feedback? Stop doomsaying and give constructive feedback.

Do make sure to keep you trolling skills up-to-date as your spelling nazi-ism is well appreciated. Do you correct Smatt for all his spelling errors too or just the people that disagree with you?

DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Doom does not equal feedback. It provides nothing concrete that the QA or Development team can work with. BY all mean provide feedback, but make it constructive feedback that provides them something to work with. "Well all my characters are useless." provides them with nothing. Perhaps if people spent more time actually testing instead of learning the quickest/simplest ways to do things in this game, perhaps quality of play would be higher. As it is, people get to Lamannia purely to learn the quest and how to get the goodies first, not to test and help find bugs.

Want to provide feedback? Stop doomsaying and give constructive feedback.

Do make sure to keep you trolling skills up-to-date as your spelling nazi-ism is well appreciated. Do you correct Smatt for all his spelling errors too or just the people that disagree with you?

I've given feedback, also the grammar bit was joke, sheesh...

P.S. Chekc the AP tier pre-reqs thread and my other thread on this page for feedback, actually the only one who has given no feedback on the subject other then "everyone else is whining" is you.

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 04:37 PM
I've given feedback, also the grammar bit was joke, sheesh...

P.S. Chekc the AP tier pre-reqs thread and my other thread on this page for feedback, actually the only one who has given no feedback on the subject other then "everyone else is whining" is you.

Thank you for yet another personal attack, it delights me to know that I can provide entertainment for you. You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.

Please feel free to troll me more, and personally insult me. You must be the grand prize winner of the internet.

oweieie
04-14-2013, 04:37 PM
It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

And they have a tree because some manager drew a box and said, "IT SHALL LOOK LIKE THIS!" and poof. So trees can only have X number of enhancements across and so the number of enhancements that can have no pre-req becomes X. Despite the fact that this is really really really stupid and makes no sense and doesn't work for many/most trees, it looks nice in some managers head and so it is.

EllisDee37
04-14-2013, 04:39 PM
You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.No need to wallow in ignorance; you can see the enhancements here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414666).

FZTopaz
04-14-2013, 04:41 PM
Who got killed?

1. WIZARD SPLASHES
Absolutely pointless now, better take monk or ftr splash instead.

2. ORIGINAL MULTICLASSING[b/]
With 3 tree limit and removal many enhancements, multiclassing for enancements (taking ftr for haste boost, wizard for impulse etc) is no longer possible. Also, many famous multiclass builds will probably be worthless, or at best, heavily nerfed.

3. [B]NON HJEALBOT/NANNYBOT CLERICS
With new 80 points into healing tree to have same spellpower as before, mentioned multiclass nerf, and removal of enancements like divine might, clerics are now hireling class.

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 04:42 PM
No need to wallow in ignorance; you can see the enhancements here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414666).

Thank you for your attempt to educate me; however, as stated in my quote you put, I will wait until I can experience first hand instead of relying on second hand information.

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 04:44 PM
Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

Careful. You are not agree with the doom mentality and you will therefore be personally attacked and labeled a fanboi. I stated very much the same type of thing and have become the punching bag.

DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 04:47 PM
Thank you for yet another personal attack, it delights me to know that I can provide entertainment for you. You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.

Please feel free to troll me more, and personally insult me. You must be the grand prize winner of the internet.

?! When did I insult you? I'm pointing out you give no feedback, and you explain why in the above, which I only said answering the fact you said *I* gave no feedback other then "doomsaying"...

You yourself agree that you couldn't have given any feedback seen how you're unable to log, could you point out the personal insult?

EllisDee37
04-14-2013, 04:49 PM
Thank you for your attempt to educate me; however, as stated in my quote you put, I will wait until I can experience first hand instead of relying on second hand information.So you've never used wiki as a reference for enhancements on live before? Or for anything? After all, that's equally second hand info.

Lerincho
04-14-2013, 04:53 PM
So you've never used wiki as a reference for enhancements on live before? Or for anything? After all, that's equally second hand info.

Correct, I have never referenced wiki prior to my own personal experiences with new content; whether on Lam or live. I go based of what is in release notes when new builds are introduced and my own experiences within each environments. This allows me to have a non-jade frame of mind when going into testing or actual execution.

DeafeningWhisper
04-14-2013, 04:59 PM
Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

I wouldn't know about cleric and wizard, but as far as multiclassing goes when the build factors in race class enhancements its a pretty bad deal right now.

You need 17 ap in race core tree to unlock race class tree, 41 point in said tree which leaves 22 AP for your other 2 trees.

Basically unlocking your race class tree locks you out of your main class trees almost completely, making the choice of race for the class build a horrible investment. My 2 archers are elf for the AA racial, but getting it means abandoning the rest now, hence the "dead build", a Kensai AA that can't get half the Kensai tree or a bardcher that can't buff or heal properly.

I'm not saying they won't fix it, I'm not saying I may not work to fit the new mold, all I'm saying is that as things stand *right now* I can't make these 2 builds work anymore.

Other builds suffer a bit as well from the spellcraft and Heal mechanic as well...

Stanley_Nicholas
04-14-2013, 05:12 PM
What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

Believe me, it has nothing to do with being a Founder. I'm with you on this. It's not helpful to encourage others to leave the game, whether it's a player or Turbine doing it. The scope of this enhancement change is unlike almost anything DDO has seen before. To suggest it is comparable to the original enhancement revamp, nerfs to the Batman and stat damage, or changes to lava, is laughable. Each of those changes was much smaller scale, as well as justified; this one is not, at least as yet.

EllisDee37
04-14-2013, 05:24 PM
Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...Three of the four classes currently on alpha are classes that have spell power lines on live. In every case, those spell power lines have been removed from alpha. There is no reason to believe they haven't been removed from arcanes as well.

Vellrad
04-14-2013, 05:55 PM
Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

The reason to splash wizard level is feat and 40 force spellpower for 1 AP.
Spellpower enhancements were removed for all classes we saw so far, so its safe to assume it will be removed for wizards, also, with 3 tree limit, you're losing fighter or healing or protection, even if by miracle there would be spellpower enhancement.
On the other hand, other classes giving free feat at lvl1, fighter and monk, will offer better benefit than wizard if 40 spellpower is removed.

Aussir
04-14-2013, 06:00 PM
Oh noes... someone is waiving its "bad girl" bat at me... but they like to talk without even having seen what's going on... "classy"... :rolleyes:



Anyway...


Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...
According to the Devs and the changes they introduced, your spell power will now be based on the skill Spellcraft which is INT based on top of it. This change is for anyone with a blue bar, except maybe divines that instead, will have to pour into Heal skill.

So, if you have a blue bar and want any kind of Spell Power, you'll have to throw skill points into Spellcraft and not everyone has an immensity of skill points available, not to mention that it needs INT to further it up.
Now... INT isn't exactly "the" stat for everyone and every class even if it's useful to get some more skill points.

Top this with the fact that necromancy is increased by Heal as well and you have a fun "potpourri" of skills to get if you want to build say... a necromancer or someone who uses necro skills like Wail, Energy Drain or Necrotic Ray.

Add Wizard as a splash and unless you have skill points galore, you'll going to have to lose something in your skills to get any Spell Power.

I actually have no clue why make spell power based on a skill used to IDENTIFY SPELLS, ITEM MAGIC PROPERTIES and at later levels alchemical properties and potions. If anything, it would make more sense to replace UMD with this or use it to boost UMD.

But hey... it's Turbine and they rarely make any sense. Next we'll be using Lore as a base for attack bonus...


Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.
For me, it's pretty much out as my main two classes are out for testing. I'm just waiting on Sorcerer to check out how the Devs intend to kill it.

The fact here is that, yes... this is an ALPHA... and this is exactly where we have to be vocal and tell them how much this reeks. Not when it's ready to go live. By then, it's set in stone and it won't be changed anymore.

And right now... this reeks so much that not even flies and maggots want to get near it.

BOgre
04-14-2013, 06:08 PM
Three of the four classes currently on alpha are classes that have spell power lines on live. In every case, those spell power lines have been removed from alpha. There is no reason to believe they haven't been removed from arcanes as well.

Especially in light of the new spellpower skill, a direct correlation to the heal skill. IMO breaking enchancment lines out of the enhancment system, then reinserting them into the game via Skills further complicates matters, makes multiclassing more difficult, steepens the learning curve for the game, and provides more fertile ground for unexpected bugs to crop up in unforseen places. I'm picturing broken Orbs, broken GS items, broken Dragonmarks... in addition to the already broken Pale Masters and ToD rings. Still no answer on ToD rings btw... Does this invalidate the entire Amrath pack?

EllisDee37
04-14-2013, 06:18 PM
To clarify, most (but not all) spellpower is being autogranted from trees on alpha. The skill-based spellpower is a supplement to the autogranted spell power.

ArcaneArcher52689
04-14-2013, 06:33 PM
According to the Devs and the changes they introduced, your spell power will now be based on the skill Spellcraft which is INT based on top of it. This change is for anyone with a blue bar, except maybe divines that instead, will have to pour into Heal skill.

So, if you have a blue bar and want any kind of Spell Power, you'll have to throw skill points into Spellcraft and not everyone has an immensity of skill points available, not to mention that it needs INT to further it up.
Now... INT isn't exactly "the" stat for everyone and every class even if it's useful to get some more skill points.

Top this with the fact that necromancy is increased by Heal as well and you have a fun "potpourri" of skills to get if you want to build say... a necromancer or someone who uses necro skills like Wail, Energy Drain or Necrotic Ray.

Add Wizard as a splash and unless you have skill points galore, you'll going to have to lose something in your skills to get any Spell Power.

I actually have no clue why make spell power based on a skill used to IDENTIFY SPELLS, ITEM MAGIC PROPERTIES and at later levels alchemical properties and potions. If anything, it would make more sense to replace UMD with this or use it to boost UMD.


As far as arcanes go: arti, wizard, and bard will have no problems putting points into spellcraft, the only arcane that would have trouble is sorcerer. Which, for all we know, they took that into account developing the tree (not saying they did, but really doesn't do any good to complain before we see the product) And druids would also want the skill, but again, they have enough skill points that it shouldn't be *too* much of a pain.

Also, we haven't seen the necro spell tree, so once again, don't know what they might have added(keep in mind wizards didn't have a necro-spell power line to begin with, it was part of the PrE)

Now for divines, clerics/FvS will hurt, but I don't see them needing to spend points in both, but only if they incorporate light spell power into the heal skill (not exactly intuitive, but would at least cover the major damage lines)- non drow/humans would have issues, but hopefully, they can come up with something.

Druids on the other hand will probably need to put points into both, but i'll reserve judgement until we see their trees



Oh, and as for why they named it "Spellcraft", I doubt they took the name from the handbook. They probably just came up with "what do we name the skill that will enhance a person's spell damage?" Spellcraft is the first thing I would come up with.

Aussir
04-14-2013, 06:50 PM
As far as arcanes go: arti, wizard, and bard will have no problems putting points into spellcraft, the only arcane that would have trouble is sorcerer. Which, for all we know, they took that into account developing the tree (not saying they did, but really doesn't do any good to complain before we see the product) And druids would also want the skill, but again, they have enough skill points that it shouldn't be *too* much of a pain.

Also, we haven't seen the necro spell tree, so once again, don't know what they might have added(keep in mind wizards didn't have a necro-spell power line to begin with, it was part of the PrE)
The fact that sorcerer isn't out yet is the reason why I'm reserving most of my judgement on Spellcraft until then. Right now though, without knowing how things are for non-INT based casters, it looks pretty grim.

As for negative energy being increased by Heal (and IIRC it's the only thing that increases negative energy spells, correct me if I'm wrong), that looks grim for anyone that has necro spells and doesn't have a lot of skill points to go around.

I will reserve my full judgement for when wiz/sorc are out though.


Now for divines, clerics/FvS will hurt, but I don't see them needing to spend points in both, but only if they incorporate light spell power into the heal skill (not exactly intuitive, but would at least cover the major damage lines)- non drow/humans would have issues, but hopefully, they can come up with something.

Druids on the other hand will probably need to put points into both, but i'll reserve judgement until we see their trees
As it stands right now, if you want to do any kind of damage with the (due to the right now non-existent enhancements) offensive spells, clerics/fvs have to invest in both. With the limited amount of skill points that they have, this comes down to "What do I nerf?". When you're playing a class that can't afford to get spells interrupted (concentration) every 2 seconds, this gets hairy...


Oh, and as for why they named it "Spellcraft", I doubt they took the name from the handbook. They probably just came up with "what do we name the skill that will enhance a person's spell damage?" Spellcraft is the first thing I would come up with.
I would just call it what it is... Spellpower... bu that's me. I still see no sense in this change to be honest. Sounds like jobsworths trying to show some work done...

FZTopaz
04-14-2013, 07:18 PM
Careful. You are not agree with the doom mentality and you will therefore be personally attacked and labeled a fanboi. I stated very much the same type of thing and have become the punching bag.

I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!

Edit: Wow...thanks for the neg rep!

smatt
04-14-2013, 07:32 PM
Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

Not a single one of the changes you noted even comes closee to the sweeping impact of this one. So you can lump anybody who thinks the overall design decision here and the people who had early input into it are barking up the wrong tree into one group.... But you will be wrong.... Over a full year into this "project" and this is where it's at... :rolleyes: When they answer soem of the basic questions that have been posed by people after this initial Lama release with concrete answers more will be known......

EllisDee37
04-14-2013, 07:37 PM
I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!This is not "one little tiny thing," I am nowhere near a super uber gamer, and I've never set foot in EE.

waryJerry
04-14-2013, 07:40 PM
And we wonder why It took the devs so long to present us with a model of the upcoming enhancement revision.

chanw4
04-14-2013, 09:29 PM
Erm, its a bit too early to cry doom for this change.

Spellpower are auto grant on spending points into the tree. Spellcraft is not the only way to gain spellpower.

PM tree might be good for necro wizard for all we know, they might dont even need to touch the heal skill at all to gain a lot of negative spell power like the cleric autogrant, it gives 1.5 positive SP instead of 1. what stops them from granting 1.5 SP per point spent? what stops them from adding the SP gain from spellcraft to negative SP at the tier 5 or capstone enahcnement?

smatt
04-14-2013, 10:11 PM
Erm, its a bit too early to cry doom for this change.

Spellpower are auto grant on spending points into the tree. Spellcraft is not the only way to gain spellpower.

PM tree might be good for necro wizard for all we know, they might dont even need to touch the heal skill at all to gain a lot of negative spell power like the cleric autogrant, it gives 1.5 positive SP instead of 1. what stops them from granting 1.5 SP per point spent? what stops them from adding the SP gain from spellcraft to negative SP at the tier 5 or capstone enahcnement?

I don't see anybody crying at all.. Except for the sniffers that is... All I see are people pointing out some of the issues they have with the very basis of the new system...... In it's VERY early form.... Of course the sniffers will exagerate it into peopel crying doom... But that's OK.... Iknwo it makes it more dramatic for them.

BoondocksMike
04-15-2013, 04:32 AM
Rage.

Seriously. Only reason to play DDO is the deep character customization tools. Don't dumb them down for newer players.

exactly, the ONLY reason for me at this point, if i am not going to get that well then i will just go play some other game in which i am forced into a much smaller number of play styles based on what class i choose at lvl 1, but with which i am currently less frustrated

BoondocksMike
04-15-2013, 04:45 AM
I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!

this is not a tiny thing (how could this possibly be a "tiny" thing?), its basically changing the most essential thing about ddo and the main reason i like playing it, build and style diversity. from what i have seen of the new changes it is looking to me like pure or nearly pure builds are going to be the vast majority (i would say only but i want to leave myself with some breathing room for when you of the anti-doom opinion begin responding) of all builds that will actually be useable. its a good thing that these changes are not final and are hopefully still being edited because as i see it they can only improve.

yes when a change occurs people will figure out new strategies to be more effective at whatever they want to do in the game but, by making multiclassing and build diversification less prevalent/worth while i find myself being more unwilling to make those changes in ddo as opposed to another game, not that im going to quit ddo right this second but much of the appeal that the game had for me is looking likes its disappearing

edit:
i like the current enhancement system, though it is not perfect (missing and unfinished PrEs) i think it works well, i feel that most of my action points spent were spent where i wanted to spend them and not wasted on prereqs that i didnt care for, and its not a ladder where i can only cimb up one rung at a time frcing me to make certain decisions i might not otherwise make. i dont see that there is really anything wrong with the system currently in place and that it is one of the better aspects of ddo, why go in and change that completely?

FZTopaz
04-15-2013, 08:44 AM
this is not a tiny thing (how could this possibly be a "tiny" thing?), its basically changing the most essential thing about ddo and the main reason i like playing it, build and style diversity. from what i have seen of the new changes it is looking to me like pure or nearly pure builds are going to be the vast majority (i would say only but i want to leave myself with some breathing room for when you of the anti-doom opinion begin responding) of all builds that will actually be useable. its a good thing that these changes are not final and are hopefully still being edited because as i see it they can only improve.

yes when a change occurs people will figure out new strategies to be more effective at whatever they want to do in the game but, by making multiclassing and build diversification less prevalent/worth while i find myself being more unwilling to make those changes in ddo as opposed to another game, not that im going to quit ddo right this second but much of the appeal that the game had for me is looking likes its disappearing

Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.

DeafeningWhisper
04-15-2013, 09:40 AM
Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.

So... 58 aps for racial AA is not proof enough that as things stand *now* the builds using elf for AA are gone? What do you need? A hand that comes out of your screen and slaps you when you pick elf as your toon's race?

RedHost
04-15-2013, 09:59 AM
Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.
I would be interested in hearing more about what 'viable' means in this circumstance.

Aussir
04-15-2013, 10:44 AM
Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.
Please go make something like 12/6/2 and come back to us.
Oh, and while you're at it, play with races and their racials and then come back to us.
And while you're at that too, try to build something actually useful instead of "viable" and come back to us.

fmalfeas
04-15-2013, 10:59 AM
12/6/2? Don't you mean 13/5/2?

Because under the new system, 5 is the magic number (full access to class tree, minus some Core abilities), not 6. 5 is also the number to get 5 extra HP.

Gotta adapt, folks.

FZTopaz
04-15-2013, 12:09 PM
I would be interested in hearing more about what 'viable' means in this circumstance.

I would love to know what viable means to you guys, since it apparently means different things. The characters I have built I was able to solo EH Gianthold quests with, the self sufficiant ones went through fine, the ones I didn't build to self heal (my deepwood sniper build) took a hire. All of them completed sufficiently. No, I wasn't getting max DPS out of my toons, but I completed, and it didn't take forever.


So... 58 aps for racial AA is not proof enough that as things stand *now* the builds using elf for AA are gone? What do you need? A hand that comes out of your screen and slaps you when you pick elf as your toon's race?

I built a half-elf healing cleric AA. I got my aura from the healing tree and got to third tier on AA. No, I didn't get slaying arrows, but with the build I have, he seems to be doing just fine. He'll probably be doing even better when the imbues are working for the racial AA. What he lacked in the upper tier arrows he made up for in new attacks from the enhancement tree, along with ED stuff and gear. With the proper augments, I was able to build a character that has virtually no problems in all but the hardest content...where he would probably be fine in a group.


Please go make something like 12/6/2 and come back to us.
Oh, and while you're at it, play with races and their racials and then come back to us.
And while you're at that too, try to build something actually useful instead of "viable" and come back to us.

I did that. The only thing I haven't touched yet is Warforged and halfing. I've played with the races, and the classes. I've made a few multi-class characters (14/6 cleric/fighter battle cleric, 16 arti/2 ranger/2 fighter Juggernaut copy, 15 ranger/5 cleric, and the cleric AA was a pure cleric).

Again, what is the difference between useful and viable? These are just as good as my old characters were...in fact...the ranger that I copied over from live (14 ranger/6 fighter tempest kensai) is actually MORE powerful now than before. Higher HP, hits harder, and had some points left over for defense in the stalwart tree.

I'm not saying the trees are perfect. I do believe that some things have too high of a cost. My wife would not stop complaining about her ranger she made with monk dillie and how she has to spend points on **** she doesn't want/need to get to the top tier. I felt the same way, but found ways around it that still made my build viable (and pretty damn useful).

So, if the toons I am making are NOT useful, yet they seem to get along just as good as my toons on live (or, in some cases, better!) then I would like to know what is wrong with my playstyle...or are you upset that you MIGHT not be able to solo EEs anymore?

DeafeningWhisper
04-15-2013, 12:37 PM
I'm not saying the trees are perfect. I do believe that some things have too high of a cost.

This is pretty much my main problem, lets use my bardcher for example.

Right now I would need to move around 4/8 points from either Con or Str (or a combination of both) to fit spellcrafting and heal to be able to self-heal properly since they removed the devotion lines from the enhancement trees.

In live I can UMD, do traps, get all archery feats, some decent Str (42 with all my buffs) and some solid 600+ hps. Strong enough songs, slaying arrows, spellsinger II and reflex saves in the high 50s.

To keep my songs at the lvl they are now I would need 41 points in spellsinger, because as we have already seen in the cleric trees they didn't so much finish prestiges by adding the last missing tier of skills, nope they'll make the current tier 2 prestiges the cap for the class tree and call it "finished".

That leaves 39 points to put in AA, or rather 22 since I need 17 in racial core, not too painful since I can use some of the enhancements bur certainly not enough to warrant the huge investment into archer (stats, feats, 2 lvls of rangers and tomes)

The problem lies in this, in the new system multiclassing using racial class leaves you half way to nowhere. I will no longer be a good bard that can buff, do traps, UMD, self-heal and do decent ranged damage, nope I'll be either a good bard with subpar archery skills that will be able to do either self-heal or do traps, or a bad bard that can do some dps.

In live it took me the better part of a year to make my current bardcher build, a TR, quite a few hearts and tomes were needed, the fact the build no longer translates is rather painful to me.

To be frank, if I can't make this one toon at least close enough for me to recognise I'm leaving DDO...


P.S. this toon has never done an EE and likely never will (I don't find them fun), it's not about losing power but losing playstyle choices, it's not about "soloing EE", it's about having fun.

voodoogroves
04-15-2013, 01:36 PM
The people really hit by this are going to be AAs, as they are the only PRE that can currrently max "two", providing the base class PREs extend up to 18/20 ish.

There's also going to be a "soft" loss where people who are in a class today that is only up to T2 of a PRE (on live) are going to feel like they are not quite "maxed" if they don't take the higher level abilities of their core PRE (like WC, which caps at 12 today).

smatt
04-15-2013, 01:51 PM
As Iv'e said, I reserve everything I've said till I see more.....

As I'm not a build fantatic, who will spends every spare wakign moment thinking aobut and designing/building toons with every planner/spread sheet in the book.... My perspective comes from a wider total game view. And that is, are such sweeping changes godo or bad for hte game in total? I get the need for a revamped system in how we look at enhancements. I also see that at least ont he surface they're putting this stuff out there for us to see VERY early, an dat least according to them (devs) it's all up for change as time goes on. My main concerns ahve to do with how many current plaeyrs will bother to rebuild their characters rather than give up ont he game. Weigh in that it's looking like the chances of actually having to "pay" after being forced rebuild characters into vaibility/playability might just push out a few more. And of course this change make the game mroe appealing to a larger set of new players?

I don't know the answers to those questions...... I'm just an average longtime (6+ years), mid-40's DDO player, who really isn't a video game fanatic, running around trying every game that comes out, building "special" gaming rigs, obsessign over every skil point, every damage point, etc. But I think as far as DDO goes, my type is far more common in DDO than the later.... How will this sweeping change effect the demographic I'm in, at this stage in the game???

No then... The Devs just made a right turn... There's a few of you who better make it with them, lest your neck gets snapped.... :D

Postumus
04-15-2013, 01:57 PM
I would love to know what viable means to you guys, since it apparently means different things. The characters I have built I was able to solo EH Gianthold quests with, the self sufficiant ones went through fine, the ones I didn't build to self heal (my deepwood sniper build) took a hire. All of them completed sufficiently. No, I wasn't getting max DPS out of my toons, but I completed, and it didn't take forever.



I think this probably fits the definition of 'viable' for 90% of the general player population. It certainly does for me. All the 'gimp' and 'not useful' claptrap bandied about by some forum people is generally not applicable to most players and never has been since I've bothered reading the forums.


I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

Ape_Man
04-15-2013, 02:02 PM
I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

But don't forget, we're always right.

Ape_Man
04-15-2013, 02:06 PM
As Iv'e said, I reserve everything I've said till I see more.....

As I'm not a build fantatic, who will spends every spare wakign moment thinking aobut and designing/building toons with every planner/spread sheet in the book.... My perspective comes from a wider total game view. And that is, are such sweeping changes godo or bad for hte game in total? I get the need for a revamped system in how we look at enhancements. I also see that at least ont he surface they're putting this stuff out there for us to see VERY early, an dat least according to them (devs) it's all up for change as time goes on. My main concerns ahve to do with how many current plaeyrs will bother to rebuild their characters rather than give up ont he game. Weigh in that it's looking like the chances of actually having to "pay" after being forced rebuild characters into vaibility/playability might just push out a few more. And of course this change make the game mroe appealing to a larger set of new players?

I don't know the answers to those questions...... I'm just an average longtime (6+ years), mid-40's DDO player, who really isn't a video game fanatic, running around trying every game that comes out, building "special" gaming rigs, obsessign over every skil point, every damage point, etc. But I think as far as DDO goes, my type is far more common in DDO than the later.... How will this sweeping change effect the demographic I'm in, at this stage in the game???

No then... The Devs just made a right turn... There's a few of you who better make it with them, lest your neck gets snapped.... :D

I think it's a calculated gamble . . . how many people will they lose over their "favorite" toon being killed versus how many WOW-refugees will now be able to understand the game.

Neverwinter is breathing down their necks, a newer shinier D&D game. Between this and the "Iconic Heroes" silliness it looks like they're simplifying the game . . . AKA dumbing it down.

Hyperbole or not, these changes WILL gimp some builds if implemented close to what we see now. With that said some colossally over-powered combos look like they'll be available for the new FoTM people to munch on so the fanbois can continue whining.

Sonos
04-15-2013, 02:14 PM
I think this probably fits the definition of 'viable' for 90% of the general player population. It certainly does for me. All the 'gimp' and 'not useful' claptrap bandied about by some forum people is generally not applicable to most players and never has been since I've bothered reading the forums.


I'm not saying the folks that hyper focus on EE content don't have some valid feedback, but they are often prone to hyperbole and sweeping generalizations which hardly seem to reflect the experience of most players.

I agree a bit here.

1-20 where a lot of people enjoy doing over and over, almost any build is "viable". EN to EH... probably still viable. EE kind of separates the wheat and the chaff. Maybe that's only 10% of players? I dunno, I don't have all of the stats. Bank toons mess up those figures(ie ratio of endgame vs. leveling players).

The real question is: Is viable=fun? Sometimes, sure. It's all subjective, I was really looking forward to LRing my completionist into an AA helf monk archer for the versatility and fun factor. There is a reason it is a FoTM, it is fun. Will there be other fun builds, sure. But after 14 lives on this toon, I had sorta looked forward to it, and I will for a few months. Builds adapt and morph (see Emerald and Emerald 2.0), but in those, there was improvement.

We'll see though. Again, I don't take the word 'alpha' as literally as most. There will be changes to be sure but...

FZTopaz
04-15-2013, 04:14 PM
I agree a bit here.

1-20 where a lot of people enjoy doing over and over, almost any build is "viable". EN to EH... probably still viable. EE kind of separates the wheat and the chaff. Maybe that's only 10% of players? I dunno, I don't have all of the stats. Bank toons mess up those figures(ie ratio of endgame vs. leveling players).

The real question is: Is viable=fun? Sometimes, sure. It's all subjective, I was really looking forward to LRing my completionist into an AA helf monk archer for the versatility and fun factor. There is a reason it is a FoTM, it is fun. Will there be other fun builds, sure. But after 14 lives on this toon, I had sorta looked forward to it, and I will for a few months. Builds adapt and morph (see Emerald and Emerald 2.0), but in those, there was improvement.

We'll see though. Again, I don't take the word 'alpha' as literally as most. There will be changes to be sure but...

See, this is a well thought out argument. Instead of saying "pigeonholed" or "nannybots", you brought forth an actual argument. Well done!

To counter it, I will say this. I also have an AA build...17 druid/2 monk/1 wizard. I am slightly worried that what I built him up for I will not be able to do anymore. That being said, where he is at now, I am having so much fun with him he is now my main (replacing my 4 year old Pale Master). I can acheive where he is now (level 17 with 14 druid, the other two classes are already in the build) in the new system for AA and still have some points left over. He may not be exactly what I thought he would, but I'm having so much fun with him, I am excited to see what he may become afterwards.

But then, I'm an optimistic person....

smatt
04-15-2013, 06:30 PM
I think it's a calculated gamble . . . how many people will they lose over their "favorite" toon being killed versus how many WOW-refugees will now be able to understand the game.

Neverwinter is breathing down their necks, a newer shinier D&D game. Between this and the "Iconic Heroes" silliness it looks like they're simplifying the game . . . AKA dumbing it down.

Hyperbole or not, these changes WILL gimp some builds if implemented close to what we see now. With that said some colossally over-powered combos look like they'll be available for the new FoTM people to munch on so the fanbois can continue whining.

Hmm, well I'm not sure it would be so much losing people over their favorite toon... Sure there will be some that go into a gamer geeked out fit of anger... Seems to be more would simply be frustrated at having to learn another entirely new/redesigned system very unlike what htye've grown acustomed to within a game that is already 7 years old. Not an addition like say the ED's, or something that feels the same such as combat, or AC, when most people never worried about htat before, but a completely new way of looking at a character from the ground up.

I'm not sure it's dumbing down, at least not yet.... Easier or more intuitive doesnt' always mean dumbing down... And there's no doubt that part of this is also a compelte rebalancing of the game as whole. you have to admit that there are many instances within DDO building that are outlandishly powerful. And no I'm not a "All things must be in balance" type of person. Of course with build system liek DDO no matter what htey bring the gamer nerds will find the holes... I mean even a gamer nerd can find a hole in the dark..... :eek:

Hey I could be 100% wrong..... It just seems a bit late for this sweeping of a move. But you know the whole FtP thing worked out, and gave the game a few more years, and of course the ability to spike revenue up enough to sell off to WB, so who knows...

As for hte sniffers..... No I'm not raged at all.... ;) Perhaps a bit confused.. But you know...

Aussir
04-15-2013, 09:30 PM
I did that. The only thing I haven't touched yet is Warforged and halfing. I've played with the races, and the classes. I've made a few multi-class characters (14/6 cleric/fighter battle cleric, 16 arti/2 ranger/2 fighter Juggernaut copy, 15 ranger/5 cleric, and the cleric AA was a pure cleric).
I'm going to give you an example of a char that I have that is 12/6/2, not FotM (I don't build those) and that I don't think I'll take to EE. It was built for fun, like all my chars although some are capable of EE, some aren't (by my own choice).

Right now, with the build that char has and if it were to use the new system, it would need 2 trees from ranger because of where Favored Enemy is, 1 tree from fighter... and then what? What do I do about the 3rd class that I have? I don't have any more trees... this, not to mention that I would need around 120-140 AP's to get that char to what it has now with 80...

Do you see what I mean now?

I'm not saying the new system can't work. It can work but it needs to be tweaked and polished for that.
I left suggestions here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4982193&postcount=24) because with some tweaks, we don't have to lose any of the customization we have now. However, those tweaks NEED to happen for that customization to stay alive.

RobbinB
04-16-2013, 03:28 AM
The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense.

What? Anybody that said the stat damage change would kill the game was just spouting hyberbole because they hated the change. But some people did leave the game because they were peeved that maybe they spent a fortune on a wop and the magnitude of the change by Turbine showed no respect for that. (Sure maybe half of those people came back a few months later, but some did leave.)

What the stat damage change did show was the Turbine devs have no clue about game mechanics. ("Hey, stat damage is too powerful, let's adjust it down slightly. Stat = 0 equals short term paralysis and a 90% stat shield makes sense to me.") C'mon, are you kidding me? And we still have the 90% stat shield in effect now? Are you double kidding me? Memo to Turbine, you didn't "balance" stat damage with a slight downgrade, you made it near useless for much of the content.

And how many other examples of Turbine doesn't understand their own game are there (nightmare weapon prefix fiasco anyone?)

Bottom line here is the points spent to get to meaningful stuff, the lack of really useful stuff in those necessary point expenditures, the fact that going deep in one tree uses up a way-too significant chunk of your ap (hence bardcher and monkcher are in trouble regardless of what they do to 10,000k stars), the 2 ap cost for nearly all skills no matter how useless (eg. 10 ap to fill out the elemental arrows line which is useless unless you do that - blah; 12 ap to effectively get 3 seeker - blah) - these all add up to the "newer versions" of many multiclass builds becoming pale versions of their former self.

Not saying the game's dying, not saying I can't make my builds "work", but don't kid yourself that significant multiclass options aren't being destroyed if anything like this enhancement pass comes into play.

For me the kicker is that if there simply existed a form of tr equivalent to a +20 lesser with race and alignment change then whatever they rolled out could be adapted to. But with only the +5 lesser or full tr possibilities they have now, too many builds will end up on the shelf not being played, which isn't cool.

So if you are saying "i'll roll with the changes" you are actually saying either you are a hardcore gamer and will tr back to endgame quick as a flash with a revised version of your outdated builds, or you simply don't mind playing a character that is flawed or no longer anything like what you envisioned / wanted it to be. Unfortunately, not everyone is cool with those things.

BOgre
04-16-2013, 03:40 AM
I've rebuilt my Human Tempest a few different ways now, including a Scimi dex build (in hopes of taking advantage of all the 'junk' in the new Temp line). All came 'close' to working out the same, or nearly so, as my Live toon, NONE were as good. More importantly none played the same as the toon I've been playing for 2 years. And more alarming, all needed significant re-gearing. Easy to do in the Dojo, not so easy to do on Live. LR/GR/TR or no, all of my characters will be affected, all will suffer a pretty major setback, even if it's only a temporary one while they're being re-geared. If I focus on only the 4 toons I play often, I'm estimating a year at my current play speed to get them back to some semblance of normal.
Ok, sure, I'll adapt and keep playing. It's just that the task looks daunting from here and I'm starting out from a disheartened place.
Devs, this is all just too much. I wish you'd have stuck with the plan of completing the PrEs and polishing the UI instead of this major overhaul.

Valakai
04-16-2013, 05:46 AM
Guess we will see as these things are still changing and we dont know details of every class as of yet. At the same time I am excited to have new opportunities but also a little sad that at least 1 of my characters needs to TR. Hoping for a bone in a form of stone of XP or some such to lessen the pain of "mandatory" TR.

barecm
04-16-2013, 11:40 AM
I can remember a quote from a dev from years back wondering why anyone would want to multiclass. Since then, we have seen the slow progression to make pure class better than multiclass. It is what the game devs have wanted for a long, long time and how we have seen changes in the enhancement system reflect over the years. The current changes to the enhancement system is the most updated reflection of that. Although I don't agree with it, I am also not surprised by how they are implementing it. The coolness of multiclassing is one of the selling points of this game and they continue to chip away at it.... I have no idea why as I have seen a dev really comment on the why of it all.

Aurora1979
04-16-2013, 12:13 PM
anyone else see the core of their build gone?

Not this time round, at the moment all my chars are scattered in mid levels/ TR's....

It's nothing new though. My characters usually become useless the very next update after I cap them. But yea, nothing abnormal in an update destroying a character.

Cetus
04-16-2013, 12:47 PM
1.5 years in the making folks...

That's the part that gets me

EllisDee37
04-16-2013, 12:58 PM
anyone else see the core of their build gone?Both my melees' share a similar core build concept: +80 devotion with human recovery III. (Pally for thf, ranger for twf.) Both have been crushed by the new enhancements in both aspects; no more devotion (other than "points spent in tree" IN THE WRONG TREE for both) and human recovery has doubled in price.

arkonas
04-16-2013, 01:21 PM
It's right there in your quotes:Why can't "the build you currently have on live" be recreated? Because there's too much build diversity on live to support them all. If you pare down your various builds to their essences, you can make a similar build in the new enhancements. There's just fewer ways to do it.

it also said probably so maybe you can replicate it. honestly anytime new changes come out builds die while new ones emerge. Its just the way any game toon life goes. Some will do awesome until some change kills it or makes it better. my problem with some of the posters who are always negative is that it was the first build and not even a finished product. I didnt get all mad and start breaking stuff in my house when i saw it. I pointed what i thought was wrong or too high. A lot of people have mentioned what is missing. that is what we should be doing.

whether you agree with me or not. Im sure some of my builds will die but oh well im not going to throw a tantrum over it.

arkonas
04-16-2013, 01:24 PM
What? Anybody that said the stat damage change would kill the game was just spouting hyberbole because they hated the change. But some people did leave the game because they were peeved that maybe they spent a fortune on a wop and the magnitude of the change by Turbine showed no respect for that. (Sure maybe half of those people came back a few months later, but some did leave.)

What the stat damage change did show was the Turbine devs have no clue about game mechanics. ("Hey, stat damage is too powerful, let's adjust it down slightly. Stat = 0 equals short term paralysis and a 90% stat shield makes sense to me.") C'mon, are you kidding me? And we still have the 90% stat shield in effect now? Are you double kidding me? Memo to Turbine, you didn't "balance" stat damage with a slight downgrade, you made it near useless for much of the content.

And how many other examples of Turbine doesn't understand their own game are there (nightmare weapon prefix fiasco anyone?)

Bottom line here is the points spent to get to meaningful stuff, the lack of really useful stuff in those necessary point expenditures, the fact that going deep in one tree uses up a way-too significant chunk of your ap (hence bardcher and monkcher are in trouble regardless of what they do to 10,000k stars), the 2 ap cost for nearly all skills no matter how useless (eg. 10 ap to fill out the elemental arrows line which is useless unless you do that - blah; 12 ap to effectively get 3 seeker - blah) - these all add up to the "newer versions" of many multiclass builds becoming pale versions of their former self.

Not saying the game's dying, not saying I can't make my builds "work", but don't kid yourself that significant multiclass options aren't being destroyed if anything like this enhancement pass comes into play.

For me the kicker is that if there simply existed a form of tr equivalent to a +20 lesser with race and alignment change then whatever they rolled out could be adapted to. But with only the +5 lesser or full tr possibilities they have now, too many builds will end up on the shelf not being played, which isn't cool.

So if you are saying "i'll roll with the changes" you are actually saying either you are a hardcore gamer and will tr back to endgame quick as a flash with a revised version of your outdated builds, or you simply don't mind playing a character that is flawed or no longer anything like what you envisioned / wanted it to be. Unfortunately, not everyone is cool with those things.

why cant you just wait for a repolished look of the enhancements. they said the ap costs weren't set in stone. So why are people still talking about this. until i see the new costs im not saying anything.

danzig138
04-16-2013, 01:29 PM
If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt. Only if it stays the same game. Which is not the case. All recent design decisions point to the simple fact that, for whatever reasons, TPTB are trying to turn it into a different game. So bring a better argument than that.


Thank you for yet another personal attackI don't think you know what a personal attack is.

have become the punching bag.Oh for goodness' sakes, there is a better use for that wood than supporting you up there.

1.5 years in the making folks...

That's the part that gets meI think a bit has changed during that year and a half. What was the goal at one point probably isn't the goal nowadays.

DeafeningWhisper
04-16-2013, 01:51 PM
why cant you just wait for a repolished look of the enhancements. they said the ap costs weren't set in stone. So why are people still talking about this. until i see the new costs im not saying anything.

... Okay one last time, we talk about it so they can fix it. We give them feedback because they asked for it, what you guys are saying amounts to this: "Don't say what's wrong with the game, the devs will fix it!".

How, good sir are they supposed to know what we think of the pass, what needs to be fixed if we don't tell them?

When a boat springs a leak do you wait for it to sink to do something or do you, I don't know, tell the people that have the means of stopping said leak?

Cetus
04-16-2013, 01:57 PM
.
I think a bit has changed during that year and a half. What was the goal at one point probably isn't the goal nowadays.

I don't think so. The same goals of providing a more user friendly interface along with a revamp of a really old system exist today just as they did 1.5 years ago.

From the outside looking in, placing all of these enhancements on the tree with arrows and descriptions is probably two weeks worth of consistent work for all the classes. Not 18 months. The lack of options and sorta vanilla type enhancements couldn't have been the product of serious thinking.

Aussir
04-16-2013, 02:27 PM
why cant you just wait for a repolished look of the enhancements. they said the ap costs weren't set in stone. So why are people still talking about this. until i see the new costs im not saying anything.
You're the kind of person that:

- Waits until its house has been robbed to lock it up.
- Waits until it its house burned down to worry about fire insurance.
- Waits until someone is dark purple before doing CPR.

In other words... you're the type of person that waits until it's too late to do anything...

The Devs said that they WANT our feedback, they NEED our feedback. If we said nothing, we'd have this nightmare implemented as it is on live servers. And why? Because of people like you, that just sit on their butts and "wait"... then wait until the cows fly... in the meantime, we'll keep talking about it and pointing out the changes that need to be done. You can stay in your comfy little "wait corner". :mad:

Marthesis
04-16-2013, 03:18 PM
If anyone thinks this change won't end up making some builds unviable, they're fooling themselves.

If anyone thinks this means we'll have fewer viable builds, they're being narrow-minded.

Some previously viable builds will die. Some previously unviable builds will come to life. Is #1 greater than #2? I'm not convinced, especially with them admitting they'll be lowering the points requirments in future test builds.

Frankly, if every build was at least as strong as they were before, we're going to have more massive power creep. No, some builds will have less spellpower, or less damage. Some builds will need to choose a different combination of abilities because of availability.

Stop trying to figure out how to get the exact same abilities at the exact same strength they used to be at. Figure out how to make the new system work on its own terms, and then critique it from that perspective.

RobbinB
04-16-2013, 06:00 PM
If anyone thinks this change won't end up making some builds unviable, they're fooling themselves.

If anyone thinks this means we'll have fewer viable builds, they're being narrow-minded.

Some previously viable builds will die. Some previously unviable builds will come to life. Is #1 greater than #2? I'm not convinced, especially with them admitting they'll be lowering the points requirments in future test builds.

Frankly, if every build was at least as strong as they were before, we're going to have more massive power creep. No, some builds will have less spellpower, or less damage. Some builds will need to choose a different combination of abilities because of availability.

Stop trying to figure out how to get the exact same abilities at the exact same strength they used to be at. Figure out how to make the new system work on its own terms, and then critique it from that perspective.

Out of curiosity, what's your proposal for a somewhat casual gamer who's already at 3rd life (and took forever to get there) to do if my current class/race/alignment falls into that "unviable" category, but also falls outside the ability of a +5 lesser reincarnation to turn it into the "viable" category?
(My suspicion is I'm looking at a couple of these, one being my monkcher)

Davelfus
04-16-2013, 06:32 PM
If anyone thinks this change won't end up making some builds unviable, they're fooling themselves.

If anyone thinks this means we'll have fewer viable builds, they're being narrow-minded.

Some previously viable builds will die. Some previously unviable builds will come to life. Is #1 greater than #2? I'm not convinced, especially with them admitting they'll be lowering the points requirments in future test builds.

Frankly, if every build was at least as strong as they were before, we're going to have more massive power creep. No, some builds will have less spellpower, or less damage. Some builds will need to choose a different combination of abilities because of availability.

Stop trying to figure out how to get the exact same abilities at the exact same strength they used to be at. Figure out how to make the new system work on its own terms, and then critique it from that perspective.

the only new builds i see due to this new system come from previous restrictions that were removed (like kensais being centered with any weapon and using ultimate monk stances) or from the new stuff...

and i 'm pretty sure that if you added just some of these new enhancements to the old system, we would be able to create more amazing stuff there than we can create here...

but, apart from those cases, just see a lot of builds dinging left and right. Like any defender that doesn't want to use a shield. To be honest, i have more fun creating builds with the old system than this one, and that's the main factor i have in mind when juding it.

also must say that my hopes of this new system evolving to something similar to the old one, but better, are pretty low.... because of this:


We hate the Enhancement UI.

I was promissed a new UI and all prestige lines finally done, not a totaly new system... but whatever... and the 'hate' worries me a bit... do the majority of players HATE it too? hell that's not my personal experience (and not the general idea we had on the let's talk thread)

then... i belive you may be right in the end... forget the old and adapt or play another game... but i will keep beating this dead horse until it is on live servers, never know... maybe the silver flame will show them the path and we will have a more diverse and better ddo...


so let's agree on one thing at least shall we? i give my feedback and you give yours.
It is up to them to judge this anyways.

Postumus
04-16-2013, 06:48 PM
My Kensai III AA, I logged into Lamland to see what my elf ftr18 arty 1 ranger 1 would look like with the new enhancement system.

I can no longer get Kensai enhanced crit range AND slaying arrows (both 41 needed into a tree), pretty much making the whole point of the build mute, anyone else see the core of their build gone?


I know how you feel. My 'Batman' build is hosed.

DeafeningWhisper
04-16-2013, 07:33 PM
I know how you feel. My 'Batman' build is hosed.
Batman build?

Kakashi67
04-16-2013, 08:29 PM
Batman build?

Another long dead build.

jillie
04-16-2013, 08:31 PM
1.5 years in the making folks...

That's the part that gets me

My Pale Master was 2 years in the making (10 past lives) and was killed off for endgame. *sigh* Maybe the changes will revive her? Maybe? Please?

Postumus
04-16-2013, 08:34 PM
You're the kind of person that:

- Waits until its house has been robbed to lock it up.
- Waits until it its house burned down to worry about fire insurance.
- Waits until someone is dark purple before doing CPR.

In other words... you're the type of person that waits until it's too late to do anything...




Don't worry. There will still be plenty of time to complain about things after Alpha is over.

DeafeningWhisper
04-16-2013, 09:20 PM
Don't worry. There will still be plenty of time to complain about things after Alpha is over.

But we need to give feedback for each of the incarnations of the pass for it to progress no? I mean, if we wait for the very last version to voice our concerns I'm pretty sure it'll be too late...


You know what really gets me? It's the fact that when the pass goes live and it's not a horrible mess that limits choices rather then encourage them, the guys who voiced their opinions and gave feedback on how to fix it while it was in Alpha, Beta, Gamma and so on will be the reason.

Not the guys basically saying "shut up, the devs know what to do, you FoTM, EE soloers are just crying cuz your exploiter builds are gone!" and when the enhancement pass goes live they'll be the first to say "See, we were right all along! We did nothing to fix it and it was flawless!!".

Firewall
04-16-2013, 11:15 PM
Out of curiosity, what's your proposal for a somewhat casual gamer who's already at 3rd life (and took forever to get there) to do if my current class/race/alignment falls into that "unviable" category, but also falls outside the ability of a +5 lesser reincarnation to turn it into the "viable" category?
(My suspicion is I'm looking at a couple of these, one being my monkcher)

That's the biggest problem i see with the changes. With most of the previous changes people were able to adapt by changing gear or switching a feat or two. The exception maybe being the AC overhaul after which i saw a lot of people in my guild leave DDO never to come back.
These new changes are so intense that a simple Lesser Reincarnation will not be able to fix the characters people have been building and gearing for years. I have lots of casual gamers in my guild still paying their monthly VIP accounts that simply enjoy playing their characters that they built and geared when they had more time to play. Most of them will stop playing DDO altogether if they are told that they have to True Reincarnate 8 of their 10 toons and regear all of them just to make them adapt to the new changes. And probably all of the characters will still end up with a different feel of play or some major changes that are not fun for them anymore.

Sadly for most people playing the game it is not that easy to TR one of their characters and be capped in less than a week. Or even regear a toon with four greensteel items in a reasonable time. And with the change that might be required for most of peoples toons. I can understand that this removes all the fun from playing the game for those people.

smatt
04-17-2013, 08:25 AM
Out of curiosity, what's your proposal for a somewhat casual gamer who's already at 3rd life (and took forever to get there) to do if my current class/race/alignment falls into that "unviable" category, but also falls outside the ability of a +5 lesser reincarnation to turn it into the "viable" category?
(My suspicion is I'm looking at a couple of these, one being my monkcher)


It's really hard to say..... It's so early who knows how it's all going to play out. Perhaps more of the general direction the Dev team is heading with this, or should I say would like to head, will become cclear after the rest of the basic class/racial trees are out there. It's very likely though that MANY people will have to "PAY" to recreate their characters that are fun for them due to this massive change in the game. I would expect that accross the board at least from the initial look of things.... It will be much harder to have self sufficient characters, ones that do many things well... The emphasis seems to be heading back to more specialization.

AlmGhandi
04-17-2013, 08:30 AM
MOTU coming in the middle of our 2 man Artificer/Monk life (no more pajama-tank etc) made our lives interesting.
Just planning ahead so that we are not in the middle of some enhancement-heavy life when the next strike comes!

Sorcerer for the win!

FZTopaz
04-17-2013, 08:31 AM
... Okay one last time, we talk about it so they can fix it. We give them feedback because they asked for it, what you guys are saying amounts to this: "Don't say what's wrong with the game, the devs will fix it!".

How, good sir are they supposed to know what we think of the pass, what needs to be fixed if we don't tell them?

When a boat springs a leak do you wait for it to sink to do something or do you, I don't know, tell the people that have the means of stopping said leak?

For those of us who are defending the new enhancements...we are not asking you to NOT talk about it. It's the petty way some of you are talking about that is unhelpful to the discussion. The "Turbine will screw this up, they hate multiclassing, my build is dead" lines that do NOTHING to help or give feedback.

Here is the posts I am seeing:

"The new enhancement pass sucks. My old builds are dead. The sky is falling. DoooooOOoooOOOoOOOoOOOOoOooooQUoooOOOOOooooMMMMMMM M!!!!"

This would be a better post:

"Not a fan of the new pass. Here is why....."

Followed by examples as to why. Yes, some of the posts are like this....but very few are.

Basically, what I am trying to say, is maybe if you presented your argument in a fair, respectable, calm and informative fashion, I would see no problems with what is being brought up. Instead, most of the arguments sound like the ranting of entitled, know-it-all brats.

chanw4
04-17-2013, 08:46 AM
For those of us who are defending the new enhancements...we are not asking you to NOT talk about it. It's the petty way some of you are talking about that is unhelpful to the discussion. The "Turbine will screw this up, they hate multiclassing, my build is dead" lines that do NOTHING to help or give feedback.

Here is the posts I am seeing:

"The new enhancement pass sucks. My old builds are dead. The sky is falling. DoooooOOoooOOOoOOOoOOOOoOooooQUoooOOOOOooooMMMMMMM M!!!!"

This would be a better post:

"Not a fan of the new pass. Here is why....."

Followed by examples as to why. Yes, some of the posts are like this....but very few are.

Basically, what I am trying to say, is maybe if you presented your argument in a fair, respectable, calm and informative fashion, I would see no problems with what is being brought up. Instead, most of the arguments sound like the ranting of entitled, know-it-all brats.

especially some of the people simply don't understand the new system and give out false information.

DeafeningWhisper
04-17-2013, 09:09 AM
For those of us who are defending the new enhancements...we are not asking you to NOT talk about it. It's the petty way some of you are talking about that is unhelpful to the discussion. The "Turbine will screw this up, they hate multiclassing, my build is dead" lines that do NOTHING to help or give feedback.

Here is the posts I am seeing:

"The new enhancement pass sucks. My old builds are dead. The sky is falling. DoooooOOoooOOOoOOOoOOOOoOooooQUoooOOOOOooooMMMMMMM M!!!!"

This would be a better post:

"Not a fan of the new pass. Here is why....."

Followed by examples as to why. Yes, some of the posts are like this....but very few are.

Basically, what I am trying to say, is maybe if you presented your argument in a fair, respectable, calm and informative fashion, I would see no problems with what is being brought up. Instead, most of the arguments sound like the ranting of entitled, know-it-all brats.

I've given examples, did the math and explained why my builds are dead in the current version of the pass.

Sorry if I'm not very good at sugarcoating, also you say to post in a "fair, respectable, calm and informative fashion" and in the same breath used the words "the ranting of entitled, know-it-all brats" to speak of people who disagree with you.

Might wanna do what you preach there...

FZTopaz
04-17-2013, 09:59 AM
I've given examples, did the math and explained why my builds are dead in the current version of the pass.

Sorry if I'm not very good at sugarcoating, also you say to post in a "fair, respectable, calm and informative fashion" and in the same breath used the words "the ranting of entitled, know-it-all brats" to speak of people who disagree with you.

Might wanna do what you preach there...

I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. At all. I welcome opposing arguments that, again, have examples, screenshots...ANYTHING to support their argument. Unfortunately, the majority of hte posts that are against it are nothing but whining. It's undeniable.

EllisDee37
04-17-2013, 12:56 PM
I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. At all. I welcome opposing arguments that, again, have examples, screenshots...ANYTHING to support their argument. Unfortunately, the majority of hte posts that are against it are nothing but whining. It's undeniable.Yes, but your post was an example of whiny know-it-all brattiness by virtue of using the phrase "whiny know-it-all brats."

CoasterHops
04-17-2013, 01:49 PM
At first I viewed the Alpha with trepidation, yes I see some current builds being gimped, but I also see alot of promise with the new system.

There is an issue at end game now where there are three builds that are the goto builds for end game players.
These three builds are:
-Monkchers
-Juggernauts
-Shiradi Specc'd casters

Why is everyone playing these three builds at current end game?

The answer is simple, the Class/ED combos are the most powerful on live at present, so sure we have choice to essentially build what we want, but when everyone is building and playing the same three class/build with slight variants combos at end game do we really have as much freedom as we think we do?

For all those people that don't think Monkchers need a lil toning down...... theres a saying in New Zealand, "Yeah Right..."

Anyway the other side if the coin is what incentive are we going to get to fix toons that have multiple lives and gear that we have farmed and built for over the years?
Personally I believe we are going to need +20 Hearts with a race change option too, I don't mind current builds getting broken if they implement:
1. More and varied builds than on live.
2. The ability (at no cost) to fix toons without having to TR.

Disclaimer: I am not at present running any of the FotM builds that are goto at end game, I do have 14 toons though and I absolutely love having build options, they give us more of these and I will be happy.

Lerincho
04-17-2013, 02:27 PM
Deafening,

Well I was finally able to get into Lamannia, and as promised wanted to share my thoughts. I can completely see what you are saying about the racial enhancements causing some issues (we are ignoring AP costs right now); however with the ability to add in other class enhancements that would have previously been unavailable, I do not see how a good alternative cannot be found. I will keep in mind that 8 of my 10 characters are pure classes and most prefer multiclassing. This is just my opinion, and I certainly will respectfully disagree with the doom sentiment.

The one major change that I think should happen with the racial enhancements, is that tree is able to see the AP sent in the other tree for prerequisite considerations. What I mean is that if I have 15 spent in tree 1 and and 5 in tree 2, I should be able to get a race enhancement that require 10 or 20 points spent (excluding skills that prereq itself (the fun arrows)).

DeafeningWhisper
04-17-2013, 03:07 PM
Deafening,

Well I was finally able to get into Lamannia, and as promised wanted to share my thoughts. I can completely see what you are saying about the racial enhancements causing some issues (we are ignoring AP costs right now); however with the ability to add in other class enhancements that would have previously been unavailable, I do not see how a good alternative cannot be found. I will keep in mind that 8 of my 10 characters are pure classes and most prefer multiclassing. This is just my opinion, and I certainly will respectfully disagree with the doom sentiment.

The one major change that I think should happen with the racial enhancements, is that tree is able to see the AP sent in the other tree for prerequisite considerations. What I mean is that if I have 15 spent in tree 1 and and 5 in tree 2, I should be able to get a race enhancement that require 10 or 20 points spent (excluding skills that prereq itself (the fun arrows)).

Good, I really think it's a shame that so many simply can't even log in to Lamland at the moment.

Glad you agree that I'm not insane (okay not *completely* insane), the racial class pre-reqs is really the biggest problem with the pass for me.

I started another thread with more neutral language here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415289.


Thou as I fear, no one comments in that one, one way or another.

Lerincho
04-17-2013, 03:13 PM
Good, I really think it's a shame that so many simply can't even log in to Lamland at the moment.

Glad you agree that I'm not insane (okay not *completely* insane), the racial class pre-reqs is really the biggest problem with the pass for me.

I started another thread with more neutral language here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415289.


Thou as I fear, no one comments in that one, one way or another.

Give the other thread time. Now as we see the costs are dropping in week 2, I do not think this will fix your issue as well. I do think that if they allowed only the racial tree to view total APs spent in any tree it would solve your issue.

Ryiah
04-17-2013, 03:41 PM
The Devs said that they WANT our feedback, they NEED our feedback.

What they truly want is useful feedback. A lot of doom with no real information alongside it is almost useless.

Cetus
04-17-2013, 05:05 PM
At first I viewed the Alpha with trepidation, yes I see some current builds being gimped, but I also see alot of promise with the new system.

There is an issue at end game now where there are three builds that are the goto builds for end game players.
These three builds are:
-Monkchers
-Juggernauts
-Shiradi Specc'd casters

Why is everyone playing these three builds at current end game?

The answer is simple, the Class/ED combos are the most powerful on live at present, so sure we have choice to essentially build what we want, but when everyone is building and playing the same three class/build with slight variants combos at end game do we really have as much freedom as we think we do?

For all those people that don't think Monkchers need a lil toning down...... theres a saying in New Zealand, "Yeah Right..."

.

I don't have any of these builds and I'd like to modestly say that in my opinion, I pwn content just as well, if not better, with the builds I enjoy.

Monkchers don't need toning down, why would you punish people for recognizing a useful class split?

frankzro1
04-17-2013, 08:21 PM
Seems like this skill tree being implemented is coming directly from the beta tests in NeverWinter over on Perfectworld's site...

The skill tress are some what similar to Neverwinter and I am wondering if they are using those beta results and feed backs as a way to "Upgrade" ( Downgrade) this game. The skill trees are ok, but they should just be an optional way to play as in, you chose a path instead of a customization for your character and now that guy is using a skill tree instead. Easy for the new guys to get into building characters, but DDO is not about having the strongest guy really, its about understanding what you are playing.

I see a lot of new guys treat DDO like its WoW and they fail at the game play in general because they do not understand the mechanics and know when they need to to do certain things.

This skill tree ill not fix that! It will only make things even more complicated for new players because us frequent players took the time to understand what the game is all about. Yes playing DDO takes time , but once you get it its even more fun and does not get boring making custom builds... there are so many possibilities for build and for you guys to take that from the game would just kill us! Think about what you have now and know that what you have now is unique, which is why most of us have been playing for years.

Don't kill off your fans by tossing in generic functions guys :(

Aussir
04-17-2013, 08:53 PM
What they truly want is useful feedback. A lot of doom with no real information alongside it is almost useless.
I left suggestions already in another thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4982193&postcount=24) and it would be pointless to spam every enhancement pass thread with them. I filled those horribly created surveys (Which 3 I like or dislike most? Really Turbine?) and crammed those places where I could write...

There's nothing else I can do and while I'm not going about screaming "DoOOOoOOOM", I will reiterate that they have to change the way this is built if it is to work. The perfect scenario would be:

- Keep the current enhancements and ADD to them.
- 1 big class tree where we choose what we want like we do now.
- 1 racial tree.
- No "X number of AP's per tree" but " X number of AP's used" in general.
- Lower AP costs.
- Get rid of useless pre-reqs

This would make the new system versatile, wouldn't bork people's builds so much and i would leave room to add the rest of the PrE's later on.

I didn't go much into the cleric and artificer because I don't play those classes and only toyed around with them a bit. However, I saw entire enhancement lines gone from the cleric, which isn't good. I'm sure that those playing clerics are more qualified than me to talk about it.

Ranger and Fighter are two of my 4 main classes. I don't build FotM, I don't play those funky ED combos that are the current FotM.
What I can say is that, while looking at the current Ranger/Fighter trees, I ran some math on my head and scribbled on paper... and this happened:

- on 2 of my characters, I ran out of trees before I could even get to the third class trees.
- on most of my characters, I ran out of AP's before getting 2/3's of what I have now with 80 AP's.

This... is not good. And I'm pulling my hairs out while waiting for the Sorcerer... I don't even know if I want to see what happened to them...


There is an issue at end game now where there are three builds that are the goto builds for end game players.
These three builds are:
-Monkchers
-Juggernauts
-Shiradi Specc'd casters
I don't have any of these builds and don't intend to get them any time soon. If someone doesn't like that my sorcerer is dragon instead of shiradi, I have a finger here for them.

Postumus
04-18-2013, 01:14 AM
I don't have any of these builds and don't intend to get them any time soon. If someone doesn't like that my sorcerer is dragon instead of shiradi, I have a finger here for them.

Ha ha ha. Very nice. :)

Davelfus
04-18-2013, 05:47 AM
There is an issue at end game now where there are three builds that are the goto builds for end game players.
These three builds are:
-Monkchers
-Juggernauts
-Shiradi Specc'd casters


Love this crazy stuff ppl make up on the forums... at least on ghallanda, thats totaly not what you only see at end game. (and have yet to see one of those builds being thaaaat OP as ppl make them be...)

Arnhelm
04-18-2013, 12:05 PM
I finally got into Lamannia today. I attempted to replicate my current rogue build for Ghaelii. I was unable to do so due to the structure, cost, and types of enhancements now available under the proposed system.

The gating cost per tree is too high. I agree with those who have requested the overall AP points spent be used for this structure, rather than the per-tree cost of AP points spent.

I fear I will find all of my current builds, all pure builds by the way, are broken beyond repair. Also, after reviewing the basic system, I stand by my first statement regarding these proposed changes - This is not a game-changing system, it is a whole new game system.

CoasterHops
04-18-2013, 07:57 PM
Love this crazy stuff ppl make up on the forums... at least on ghallanda, thats totaly not what you only see at end game. (and have yet to see one of those builds being thaaaat OP as ppl make them be...)

Its not what you only see at end game, but on Khyber there is a definate shift towards these builds for fast, solo, shortman or no healer Epic Elites.
Of course there are alot of other toons running around, but theres also a reason why many powergamers are gravitating to these type of builds.

Like I said though, I hope the enhancement pass is going to give us more options, so I am starting to think the changes will be a positive in regards to build choices.

Aussir
04-18-2013, 08:17 PM
This... is not good. And I'm pulling my hairs out while waiting for the Sorcerer... I don't even know if I want to see what happened to them...
A couple of posts ago, I said that...

Now I can say: Turbine has managed to kill even my pure sorcerer. Actually, they managed to kill the whole class.

You go Turbine! :rolleyes:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/alexisdorian/My%20stuff/sarcasticclap_zpsfcfbb538.gif (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/alexisdorian/media/My%20stuff/sarcasticclap_zpsfcfbb538.gif.html)

SealedInSong
04-18-2013, 08:19 PM
Which is to say...any archmage that's not an idiot or playing an extreme flavor build.

I have an evoconjurer and an illusionenchantress.

Now they're both having an arm chopped off.

Aussir
04-18-2013, 08:32 PM
Which is to say...any archmage that's not an idiot or playing an extreme flavor build.

I have an evoconjurer and an illusionenchantress.

Now they're both having an arm chopped off.
My sorcerer is a necroevoker... take your guesses what happens to her with this "pass"... pass indeed... of gas...

I can't even think of a sentence involving this enhancement pass that isn't full of cussing... it has been a while ever since something in a game ****ed me this much... :mad:

Ziindarax
04-18-2013, 09:04 PM
My sorcerer is a necroevoker... take your guesses what happens to her with this "pass"... pass indeed... of gas...

I can't even think of a sentence involving this enhancement pass that isn't full of cussing... it has been a while ever since something in a game ****ed me this much... :mad:

I feel your pain; Favored Souls are now shoehorned into being offensive/defensive casters, with no option for buffing their healing via class enhancements. Furthermore, they don't seem to have ANY enhancements for boosting their effectiveness with the preferred weapon of the class' patron diety. I will probably need to TR before the changes come into effect on Live.

That all being said, the Soul Survivor Warforged that ultimately turned out to be a rather impressive build toward Epic levels with Destinies has now become a rather dead build - although he'd be able to now cast the cleric defensive capstone (in theory), I am not a buffbot, and will not play as such (and his offensive casting was already weak by pure casting standards BEFORE the removal of spell power lines). Juggernaught's looking like the go-to build for my next life. Or something.

Aussir
04-18-2013, 10:22 PM
I feel your pain; Favored Souls are now shoehorned into being offensive/defensive casters, with no option for buffing their healing via class enhancements. Furthermore, they don't seem to have ANY enhancements for boosting their effectiveness with the preferred weapon of the class' patron diety. I will probably need to TR before the changes come into effect on Live.

That all being said, the Soul Survivor Warforged that ultimately turned out to be a rather impressive build toward Epic levels with Destinies has now become a rather dead build - although he'd be able to now cast the cleric defensive capstone (in theory), I am not a buffbot, and will not play as such (and his offensive casting was already weak by pure casting standards BEFORE the removal of spell power lines). Juggernaught's looking like the go-to build for my next life. Or something.

Turbine has the gall to say that they don't want to kill classes and multi-classes... and yet, they are killing every single class in the game, pure or not.

I will say this again: If I'm going to be forced into dumb roles and broken classes, I don't need DDO anymore and I'll be moving my money to the competition... I heard there's some Pigeon-Hole Neverwinter Online begging for my money....

Lyria
04-18-2013, 11:12 PM
After copying a couple of my chars over and playing around with them...

* Bard/Ranger/Rogue Arcane Archer
Well, can't fully test this as the bard enhs aren't there yet. However, one GLARING bug I've found is that if you have ranger levels, you can't select the elven arcane archer tree to pick from. It forces you to take the ranger one. So I can't really test anything here.

* Wizard/Rogue
As I was more or less a single-spec archmage, I'm of two minds about the changes. On one hand, I lost a TON of spellpower, which is more than a bit frustrating. On the other hand, I can dump enough points into pale master while still keeping all my archmage abilities that I feel like I gained some nice abilities (including an epic skelly pet). However, trying to summon the skelly pet crashes the client, so I can't actually test it out.

* Druid
Again, lost a bit of spellpower, but not as much due to how the +sp stuff was for druids. The ability to have nearly the entire seasons' herald tree AND get enough points to get reaving roar from shifter was pretty neat. Of course, being drow my racial abilities were kind of crappy as far as benefiting a druid goes. So on live, I'd probably be tempted to turn her into a half-elf, which would cut into the shifter tree.

Once the rest of the trees start propagating over I'll tinker around some more. Overall, I'm on the fence about it. I dislike their choice of spellcrafting/healing/perform, as it kind of screws some classes over, and forces people to put points into int (especially for clerics and favored souls) if they don't want to be kind of screwed on spell power (and worse if they're a splash like cleric/rogue or cleric/arti).

We'll see. I haven't seen anything character-breaking yet, but there are some things I'm definitely concerned about. Also noticed that most of the +hp stuff is gone from races and classes, so people are going to lose a chunk of hp, especially at low levels.

Davelfus
04-19-2013, 05:47 AM
Its not what you only see at end game, but on Khyber there is a definate shift towards these builds for fast, solo, shortman or no healer Epic Elites.
Of course there are alot of other toons running around, but theres also a reason why many powergamers are gravitating to these type of builds.

Like I said though, I hope the enhancement pass is going to give us more options, so I am starting to think the changes will be a positive in regards to build choices.

yeah but that always happens... before it was palemasters, ice savants, remember the monster, batman? etc etc etc
the "power gamers" do this all the time, someone find out the latest broken ability before they nerf it (like we have now with furyshot or master blitz during the entire quest, have no doubt they will nerf those sometime in the future)
fit them in a build and play with it while it last...

if we HAD to be on those builds to complete any EE quests i could see the system as being broken, but you rly don't need to...

~Glimrac
05-06-2013, 05:37 PM
So, from what I've read, the following builds will be dead or critically injured based on what we've seen so far:

-non-Nannybot Cleric
-Kensai III Arcane Archer
-Monkcher
-Pure Clerics
-Ranger TWF
-Pally THF
-Human Tempest
-Bardcher
-evoker/conjurer archmage
-illusion/enchantment archmage
-necromancy/evoker sorc
-bowbarian
-favored souls
-stalwart defenders who don't use shields
-Batman
-Angels
-Wizard splashes
-pure sorcs
-all sorcs
-all pure builds
-all multi-class builds

Sounds like fun! Can't hardly wait... :)

Hwesta
05-09-2013, 10:55 AM
Monkchers are dead with the removal of 10k stars.

Luckily I never got around to TRing into my monkcher life.

My bard16/rogue4 is probably losing some utility and gaining damage. She will be a better rogue and a worse bard. (With 4 rogue levels, I should be able to get dex instead of str to damage allowing me to totally ignore strength. I had originally ignored it because I thought I could scroll Insightful Damage (wrong!), so instead I have a billion skill points from a high base int and low damage from a low base str.)

I have mixed feelings about this.

Loriac
05-20-2013, 09:09 AM
Based on how the enhancement feedback stands at present, I agree that a lot of builds look like they're gonna die. In particular, I think:

- the melee + manyshot (Juggernaut et al) builds become a lot harder to create, unless you invest heavily in the deepwood stalker tree (which means that you're looking at rangers as a base class/heavy splash for any melee + manyshotter)
- The DC casting builds are essentially dead at this point anyway (even on live), and the changes to spellpower mean that wizard is likely to be stronger for shiradi variants
- Battleclerics are history if the changes go through as they currently stand, and melee FVS are less powerful than currently
- most of the /2 splash builds that use monk or rogue are significantly weakened, as you're unlikely to be able to spare the 3rd tree on class enhancements from your 2 splash class

The key change really is that builders have to start thinking in terms of trees rather than classes; a multiclass character will become one where you're mixing together the enhancement trees as the primary focus, with class abilities likely to become secondary.

There are a couple of build ideas that look interesting based on the current state of the enhancement changes, but tbh its probably not worth investing any real time into creating build ideas until much closer to release, as I suspect a lot will change from now until then.