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redoubt
04-12-2013, 07:09 PM
These need some tweaking.

1. They need to be based on the casting stat of the class, not just INT.

2. Rangers need to get benifit from heal.

3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.

I don't know of anyone who takes any of these other than bards taking perform. This will place a burden on many characters (wizards and artis are probably okay.) Take my 3rd life cleric for example. With 36pts to work with he is max wisdom and charisma and the rest goes into Con. He has 8 INT. Concentration is a must have skill. Now so is heal... so now he needs two more points of intelligence. Was that considered?

Same goes for a sorc... max cha and max con. Not a lot of skill points to go around...

There are builds that don't need skill points, but to those builds that do, they are precious. Due to the difficulty of getting more skill points on things like clerics I think that each point invested should be worth more than 1 spell power.

Thanks for reading.

RavenStormclaw
04-12-2013, 07:45 PM
These need some tweaking.

1. They need to be based on the casting stat of the class, not just INT.

2. Rangers need to get benifit from heal.

3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.

I don't know of anyone who takes any of these other than bards taking perform. This will place a burden on many characters (wizards and artis are probably okay.) Take my 3rd life cleric for example. With 36pts to work with he is max wisdom and charisma and the rest goes into Con. He has 8 INT. Concentration is a must have skill. Now so is heal... so now he needs two more points of intelligence. Was that considered?

Same goes for a sorc... max cha and max con. Not a lot of skill points to go around...

There are builds that don't need skill points, but to those builds that do, they are precious. Due to the difficulty of getting more skill points on things like clerics I think that each point invested should be worth more than 1 spell power.

Thanks for reading.

While I see your point this is the choices we make. Need that extra skill point go human so you get 2 per level even with an 8 intel. I think the changes are usefull and make some sense. 3 power per skill point is a bit extreme especially if you conside you can find +15 braces of sustenance...that would be 45 spell power which is a lot if you consider your getting by a back door route. You think you have it bad think about an Arti who wants to use the curative adimixtures now they have to worry about spell craft, repair, and heal.

Umm they are, in fact, based off the casting stat. Only Sorcerer gets left out. Perform is charisma based, heal is wisdom based, and spell craft is intel based...sorcerer would of course use spellcraft but they each get it as a class feat so the power difference isn't so great.

Khatzhas
04-12-2013, 08:02 PM
It is a tweak to increase the usefulness of the skills and the choices available for characters. They aren't generally your main source of spellpower. Don't feel that maxing them out is absolutely necessary unless you are pushing for a completely min/max character.

Putting a 3:1 ratio of spellpower to skill points would make them more important than the spellpower from enhancements, and is probably a rather bad idea.

All the classes and races will be changing, so don't feel that you have to have the same numbers in the new system as you currently do.

Urjak
04-12-2013, 08:22 PM
IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

HungarianRhapsody
04-12-2013, 08:24 PM
IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

Sorcs and Paladins and Clerics and Favored Souls.

Khatzhas
04-12-2013, 09:48 PM
. . . so don't max out Int?
Choices can be scary, but deciding how many build points you want to put into each stat is a fundamental part of D&D and DDO both.
If you are able to max out every important stat, there is no choice, and the game loses some of its variation.

Relative character power is not an issue yet: that can only be judged when all the trees are up and running together. Likewise since everyone is changing, trying to compare with the power of your character in the old system is irrelevant.

After the devs have judged all of the trees, and tweaked the numbers to their final form, that will be the time for the min/maxers to work on breaking the new system. You can't push the limits if you don't have anything solid to push against.

EllisDee37
04-12-2013, 09:55 PM
They aren't generally your main source of spellpower.They are for rangers and pallies, who lose 80 devotion from enhancements with no way to recover them other than the heal skill.

RedHost
04-12-2013, 11:26 PM
It is a tweak to increase the usefulness of the skills and the choices available for characters. They aren't generally your main source of spellpower. Don't feel that maxing them out is absolutely necessary unless you are pushing for a completely min/max character.

Have you even looked at Lamania? These skills ~are~ the main source of spellpower.

And yes, 3:1 ratio would be insane. 1:1 is fine. There is another thread that suggests nixing the Spellcraft skill and instead folding it's function in with Concentration. Which would make the entire thing much more acceptable. As it is now, it is simply a tax that forces casters to move stat allocation points into Intelligence.

Sorcerers need the Repair skill, and Wizards either need to have access to the Heal skill as a Class Skill, or else some ~very~ hefty bonuses to the Palemaster Tree. The later would probably be better, but either will do. No idea what the OP means about Rangers and Heal, though, as they already get Devotion from Heal. At least when I was checking on it.


Relative character power is not an issue yet: that can only be judged when all the trees are up and running together. Likewise since everyone is changing, trying to compare with the power of your character in the old system is irrelevant.
No, relative power is still very important. Because the content that characters are going to be in is not changing. Cleric's offensive casting is already a joke. A year ago they were told that the Enhancement Trees would provide the answer to this. And they do not, they actually make it worse. So yes, if Clerics already lack for spell damage when running the current content, and then they loose damage while still needing to complete the same content, this is far from irrelevant.

WiseFreelancer
04-13-2013, 05:04 AM
Have you even looked at Lamania? These skills ~are~ the main source of spellpower.

They are *not* the main source of spellpower.

Even on a capped toon with maxed skill (28 spellpower) + 20 item + 25 ability score (that's a 60 Int) you're looking at 80ish spellpower. That's less than the contribution from maximise spell, less than the contribution from enhancements (look at the cleric, at not the gimped protection tree) and less than the average endgame contribution from items.

Given the cleric example, they haven't reduced spellpower from enhancements if you invest well (the numbers could be bumped IMO) so heal is a bonus. And on a Cleric or Wis-based FvS or Druid you're getting a third of the benefit for healing for free. Same for casting on a Wiz or Artificer.

The perform bonus needs to go, its punitively restrictive because perform itself is punitively restrictive. Personally I'd like to bring Light into Heal and give Sorcs some extra omph to compensate them (they alone of true-casters should be moaning).

Don't bring Rangers into it - there's a Dev post confirming Devotion will go back into their trees somehow, and that should be more than enough to cover their self-healing.

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 08:36 AM
H
Sorcerers need the Repair skill, and Wizards either need to have access to the Heal skill as a Class Skill, or else some ~very~ hefty bonuses to the Palemaster Tree.

Now there's a generalisation. All sorcerers are warforged and all wizards are palemasters.

Lithic
04-13-2013, 08:49 AM
IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

The difference between a maxed int sorc and an 8 starting int sorc is 16 pts of int, or 8% of BASE spell power. Other than the 10pts of starting int and the 6 stat points from leveling, everything else can be used and acquired by both.

This is on the order of 2% of actual damage once you factor in other spell power bonuses from items, feats, and enhancements, which can easily total 400% of base. Now consider that dropping your starting con from 18 to 16, gets you 6 of those 16 pts of int, and the difference is so minute that any sorc thinking about going full-Int is kidding themselves. The benfit of 14 starting int is you actually get the skill points you need to max repair and spell craft.

This being the case, looks like the OP is really just complaining about needing to find room for an int item or a couple int based augments. Not to mention spellpower skill itmes heh.

chanw4
04-13-2013, 09:45 AM
how about let a rogue to spot with int? how about let wiz to UMD with int?

It use int because the skill is int base.

HungarianRhapsody
04-13-2013, 10:21 AM
Now there's a generalisation. All sorcerers are warforged and all wizards are palemasters.

Good point. Slightly less than 100% of Sorcerers are Warforged and less than 75% of Wizards being played at the end game are Pale Masters now that DC casting has been beaten into submission. Of course, the Wizards who aren't Pale Masters are Warforged, so that's something...

FranOhmsford
04-13-2013, 10:51 AM
IMO only sorcs have a real problem here ... I mean getting one extra skillpoint per level is not such a great deal if you really want it .... but maxing out int on a sorc???? spellcraft definitely needs to be tied to cha for sorcerers :/

Sorcs have TWO Stats!

Charisma & Con!

If you can't fit in 14 Int on a Sorc you've got issues!


Try doing that on a Cleric, FavSoul or Paladin!


Concentration, Diplomacy {Intim on a Pally}, Heal, Spellcraft {not needed on a Paladin}, Balance = 5 Skills
14 Int {Drow} or 12 Int with Human Bonus Skill Point = Possible to take 4 of these!
14 Int {Most other Races} = Hard
14 Int {H-Orc} = Nigh on Impossible on a 32pt Build!
You have to use a +2 Tome at Lvl 7 of course to get all 5!
And no UMD!

So basically the Devs are Pigeonholing Clerics, Paladins & FavSouls into TWO Races!
Drow or Human!

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 11:33 AM
Epic Hammer of Life - new caster weapon? +20 heal and repair and a slot for spellpower augment.

RedHost
04-13-2013, 11:45 AM
Now there's a generalisation. All sorcerers are warforged and all wizards are palemasters.
I guess that was worded poorly. From the contest of the line quoted, I had meant that those classes should really have those skills added as class skills. Not all Sorcerers are WarForged. But all WF Sorcs should have access to full ranks in Repair, rather than having to cross-class their spellpower from it.


They are *not* the main source of spellpower.

Even on a capped toon with maxed skill (28 spellpower) + 20 item + 25 ability score (that's a 60 Int) you're looking at 80ish spellpower. That's less than the contribution from maximise spell, less than the contribution from enhancements (look at the cleric, at not the gimped protection tree) and less than the average endgame contribution from items.

I suppose I should have said "main innate source". For the 1:1 ratio of Universal Spell Power, you could get 80 from Enhancements if you spend ~all~ of your AP towards that, forgoing any kind of racial perks or other enhancement trees. A more reasonable number would be around 50. Which is going to be lower than a maxed Spellcraft is giving you, even on a character who does not have maxed out Intelligence.

Spellcraft offers more Spell Power than Empower. Less than Maximize. And much less than gear. But it is a greater source than anything that comes from enhancements, and ignoring it as the post that was being responded to suggested would leave a caster in the "dead weight" level of builds.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 11:55 AM
The difference between a maxed int sorc and an 8 starting int sorc is 16 pts of int, or 8% of BASE spell power. Other than the 10pts of starting int and the 6 stat points from leveling, everything else can be used and acquired by both..

A wizard has 50+ int at end game. That is a minimum of 20pts of bonus to spellpower from Int. A sorc, as most are played today has 8 or 10. The difference is more than 8%.


This is on the order of 2% of actual damage once you factor in other spell power bonuses from items, feats, and enhancements, which can easily total 400% of base. Now consider that dropping your starting con from 18 to 16, gets you 6 of those 16 pts of int, and the difference is so minute that any sorc thinking about going full-Int is kidding themselves. The benfit of 14 starting int is you actually get the skill points you need to max repair and spell craft..

Yes, when you factor in all else, the boost from the stat bonus to spell power is a small percentage.

No sorc will go full INT. Even if they went full INT at creation, they won't put stat level ups and enhancements and feats into it.

And what spell power enhancement are left? I'll admit I've not been in every tree yet, but the ones I have seen have removed them.


This being the case, looks like the OP is really just complaining about needing to find room for an int item or a couple int based augments. Not to mention spellpower skill itmes heh.

I expected better of you than resorting to insults; instead of simply screaming doom like everyone else I suggest a modification to the alpha. Isn't that what it is for? To get feedback and ideas?

My cleric has plenty of room for a stat an INT stat item, but why would he need one? He is a wisdom based caster. Anything affecting his casting should go through wisdom.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 11:59 AM
how about let a rogue to spot with int? how about let wiz to UMD with int?

It use int because the skill is int base.

Or get rid of it and give back the old spellpower boosting enhancements.

The reason I suggested it is because spellpower is used by too many different classes and is not equal in benifit due to the different casting stats.

I will however admit to you, that I have no idea how spot became timed to wisdom and UMD tied to CHA. I have always assumed it was based on a long ago D&D rule.

Turbine is adding something new to the game. Why should we not discuss how it is implemented???

chanw4
04-13-2013, 12:02 PM
Or get rid of it and give back the old spellpower boosting enhancements.

The reason I suggested it is because spellpower is used by too many different classes and is not equal in benifit due to the different casting stats.

I will however admit to you, that I have no idea how spot became timed to wisdom and UMD tied to CHA. I have always assumed it was based on a long ago D&D rule.

Turbine is adding something new to the game. Why should we not discuss how it is implemented???

spellcraft is a dnd skill that is based on int.

it is also skill for wizard to learn spell.

Spellcraft or was it knowledge? is also used for learning or creating Epic Spell'crafting' which i hope they introduce with the introduction of spellcraft.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 12:05 PM
spellcraft is a dnd skill that is based on int.

it is also skill for wizard to learn spell.

Spellcraft or was it knowledge? is also used for learning or creating Epic Spell'crafting' which i hope they introduce with the introduction of spellcraft.

In D&D does it boost spell damage as it is planned to do here in DDO?

If it does, what do sorcs, clerics, FvS, rangers, bards and druids use for a similar boost in D&D? Maybe whatever is used there could also be brought in?

chanw4
04-13-2013, 12:06 PM
In D&D does it boost spell damage as it is planned to do here in DDO?

If it does, what do sorcs, clerics, FvS, rangers, bards and druids use for a similar boost in D&D? Maybe whatever is used there could also be brought in?

it doesn't. there is no spell power at all for dnd.

Jaid314
04-13-2013, 12:14 PM
And what spell power enhancement are left? I'll admit I've not been in every tree yet, but the ones I have seen have removed them.

the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.

THOTHdha
04-13-2013, 12:15 PM
how about let a rogue to spot with int? how about let wiz to UMD with int?

It use int because the skill is int base.
Besides the usual 'DDO is not D&D' line, look at the Spellcraft skill, then look at it on the d20 SRD. The only thing that this new skill of the same name has in common with the INT based skill in D&D is.... the name. That is it; the functionality of the two are not in any way related. Otherwise it is an entirely new construct, that the name 'Spellcraft' was borrowed for in order to give it a more D&D feel.

They could have just as easily called the skill Witchcraft and made it CHA based. Or Spiritual Focus and based it on WIS. Everything about this is an arbitrary construct, so arguing for it based on precedence does not follow.

Matuse
04-13-2013, 12:19 PM
3. The 1:1 ratio is too low. Give 3 spellpower for each point in the skill.

That would be ridiculous.

23 trained + 15 spellcraft skill item + 5 points of int based improvement for a non-wizard = 126 spellpower.

A bit much.


1:1 means you get a reasonable but not preposterous improvement by investing points in the skill. If you free up a couple points of int to max the skill, you'll get some benefit, but not doing it won't cripple your character compared to someone who did max it. At 3:1, you'd be completely gimped if you didn't squeeze every drop out of it. Plus, the advantage it would give to wizards would be WAY over the top.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 12:20 PM
the cleric healing domain boosts positive and light based on how much you invest in the tree. the cleric protection domain gives universal spell power based on how much you invest in the tree.

i haven't seen the full artificer one yet, but i know there is some spellpower granted in them too.

Does it not also give a 50% penatly to all other damage types? I don't quite understand how that works, but its seems kinda harsh.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 12:25 PM
That would be ridiculous.

23 trained + 15 spellcraft skill item + 5 points of int based improvement for a non-wizard = 126 spellpower.

A bit much.


1:1 means you get a reasonable but not preposterous improvement by investing points in the skill. If you free up a couple points of int to max the skill, you'll get some benefit, but not doing it won't cripple your character compared to someone who did max it. At 3:1, you'd be completely gimped if you didn't squeeze every drop out of it. Plus, the advantage it would give to wizards would be WAY over the top.

At endgame you have 28skill points. Thats 84 spell power.

Don't boost the items and other stuff. Just the points you invest.

I'm just trying to cover what is missing from the enhancements.

Enoach
04-13-2013, 12:27 PM
I just reviewed my current Cleric's Spell power against himself with the LAMA version (52 Skill points spent to mimic Radiant Servant abilities in Healing and 13 Points Spent in Protection)

36 Point build Half-Elf Started with a 12 Intelligence (To qualify for Wizard Dilettante at Level 3 when Tomes kicked in +2 Tome at start of life)

12 Skill Points to spend at first Level
3 Skill Points to spend Levels 2-7
4 Skill Points to spend Levels 8 - 20

If I spent my skills exactly for the new system my Spellcraft Rank would be Zero (0) and Heal Rank would be 1

With Items/Ability Mods
Heal Skill: 30 (1 Rank + 14 Wisdom Mod + 15 Item)
Spellcraft: 2 (0 Rank + 2 Intelligence Mod)

Spent in Trees:
Protection: 13 = +13 Universal
Healing: 52 = +52 Light / +78 Positive

Light Spell Power: 67 (52 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus])
Positive Spell Power: 108 (78 [Healing Domain] + 30 [Healing Skill])

Now since I only invested in Light/Alignment for 60 Spell Power in the current system, I'm getting a 7 Spell Power Boost and Positive Spell power is seeing a 28 Spell Power Boost.

I can than boost this further with a +6 or better Intelligences Item, Exceptional/Insight Intelligence and even Greater Heroism. Bard Song for +2 Attributes now will add +1 Spell Power.

Now even with an 8 Int (-1) and no investment and simply a +6 Item and Greater Heroism gains you +4 Spell Power.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does appear that Rangers do not have the Devotion enhancements which if this is not changed will totally change the survivability of some ranger builds that relied heavily on this ability. For those that did not, gear changes may require fitting in a +Heal Skill Item (Maybe a Spellcraft item also), Intelligence and more Wisdom if possible.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 12:27 PM
Does it not also give a 50% penatly to all other damage types? I don't quite understand how that works, but its seems kinda harsh.No, that's the 25 spell power toggle that does virtually nothing except demonstrate that the devs feel clerics should be healbots.

Clerics have 2 trees. For every AP spent in the healing tree you get +1 radiance and +1.5 devotion, meaning if you spent all 80 AP in that tree you'd end up with 80 radiance and 120 devotion. This spell power is auto-granted, removing choice and enforcing similarity. (Right now a cleric could choose to dump light damage altogether and focus the AP saved on other things.)

The second tree grants +1 potency per AP spent, so putting all your AP in that (horrendous, offensively stupid) tree would give you +80 potency.

Neither of these sources of spell power have any negative impact, no penalty of any kind.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 12:38 PM
No, that's the 25 spell power toggle that does virtually nothing except demonstrate that the devs feel clerics should be healbots.

Clerics have 2 trees. For every AP spent in the healing tree you get +1 radiance and +1.5 devotion, meaning if you spent all 80 AP in that tree you'd end up with 80 radiance and 120 devotion. This spell power is auto-granted, removing choice and enforcing similarity. (Right now a cleric could choose to dump light damage altogether and focus the AP saved on other things.)

The second tree grants +1 potency per AP spent, so putting all your AP in that (horrendous, offensively stupid) tree would give you +80 potency.

Neither of these sources of spell power have any negative impact, no penalty of any kind.

Thank you for the clarification. :)

THOTHdha
04-13-2013, 12:39 PM
Now since I only invested in Light/Alignment for 60 Spell Power in the current system, I'm getting a 7 Spell Power Boost and Positive Spell power is seeing a 43 Spell Power Boost.
And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 12:47 PM
And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.Well, for that specifically it's probably looking better. Clerics on live are unable to put a single point of spell power into blade barrier.

My 19/1 cleric/wizard who splashed for the bonus feat, +40 force spell power and master's touch during the low levels is pretty well screwed, though. I can kiss that +40 force goodbye, meaning a fighter level will become infinitely preferable to a wizard level for my caster cleric. That just feels wrong.

chanw4
04-13-2013, 12:50 PM
And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.

erm, you notice he said he put only 13 point in protection so he have 13 universal spell power + spellcraft skill. And if you are not a heal cleric, then you should be putting point into protection line for spell power instead.

Spellcraft skill is not the main way to gain spellpower at all. before this change, you gain spell power from enhancement. probably spending lots of AP to maxout 2 - 3 line of Spellpower. in the new system, you gain spellpower from spending points on enhancement + spellcraft skill points.

THOTHdha
04-13-2013, 01:07 PM
Well, for that specifically it's probably looking better. Clerics on live are unable to put a single point of spell power into blade barrier.

My 19/1 cleric/wizard who splashed for the bonus feat, +40 force spell power and master's touch during the low levels is pretty well screwed, though. I can kiss that +40 force goodbye, meaning a fighter level will become infinitely preferable to a wizard level for my caster cleric. That just feels wrong.

Yes, but the entire point is that a year ago we were told that the Enhancement trees would be the answer to Cleric's lacking Spell Power. And now that it is here, not only can they only get a 1:1 SP:AP rate, but they are lacking any of the spell critical enhancements that make the spells really powerful.

For a year now, Clerics have been strung along with the claim that the Enhancement Trees will address their problems. And now it is being previewed, and that preview shows that their problems are not only sufficiently addressed, but they are also given an entire new set of restrictions that they have to build around.

RavenStormclaw
04-13-2013, 01:17 PM
Sorcs have TWO Stats!

Charisma & Con!

If you can't fit in 14 Int on a Sorc you've got issues!


Try doing that on a Cleric, FavSoul or Paladin!


Concentration, Diplomacy {Intim on a Pally}, Heal, Spellcraft {not needed on a Paladin}, Balance = 5 Skills
14 Int {Drow} or 12 Int with Human Bonus Skill Point = Possible to take 4 of these!
14 Int {Most other Races} = Hard
14 Int {H-Orc} = Nigh on Impossible on a 32pt Build!
You have to use a +2 Tome at Lvl 7 of course to get all 5!
And no UMD!

So basically the Devs are Pigeonholing Clerics, Paladins & FavSouls into TWO Races!
Drow or Human!

Nope you forgot one problem by the time you get a level where concentration is needed most people have picked up quicken which basically negates concentration thus you can dump it. So basically its a choice to pigeon hole yourself, or pick up quicken (which most builds do anyway) and not worry about concentration and instead put that into spell craft.

Sorceres being the exception but they also have only two stats chr and con so picking up intel shouldn't be all that hard.

ZeebaNeighba
04-13-2013, 01:40 PM
Perform I admit is a little stupid since only bards and bard splashes can even have the skill. Then again, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics and Favored souls only use their sonic spells for the stun chances, and have much better damaging options, while that isn't the case for bard.

Repair isn't a class skill for sorcerers, so they'll be short 12 points compared to a wiz/arti (assuming they even have the skill point to throw into repair each level, which is less likely as wiz/arti are int classes)

Heal is only a class skill for clerics, favored souls, paladins, druids and rangers, all of whom except ranger are tight on skill points already. Druids are 4+int mod per level, which is enough for Concentration, UMD, Heal and Spellcraft if you boost your int up to 10. Bards, artis, dragonmarked halflings (remember dragonmarks are enhancements on Lam so easier to get), pale masters, and characters that use renewal/rejuvenation cocoon won't have heal as a class skill, but at least they can put half a point in.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Light Spell Power: 67 (52 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus])
Positive Spell Power: 123 (78 [Healing Domain] + 13 [Protection Domain] + 2 [Intelligence Bonus] + 30 [Healing Skill])I like the wishful thinking how Potency (Protection Domain) stacks with Devotion & Radiance (Healing Domain) but this would be a monumental change in how spell power works. I do not share your optimism.

Have you tested it? Does potency now stack with devotion and radiance?

Postumus
04-13-2013, 01:56 PM
They are for rangers and pallies, who lose 80 devotion from enhancements with no way to recover them other than the heal skill.


So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:01 PM
And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.

How are you boosting your Blade Barrier on a pure cleric now?

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 02:11 PM
Have you tested it? Does potency now stack with devotion and radiance?

Points spent in protection tree stack with points spent in healing tree, so every point in protection tree also gives 1 positive spell power.

EllisDee37
04-13-2013, 02:23 PM
So put fewer points into balance or jump and put them into heal? Granted it is a trade off, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.Do you play a self-healing ranger or pally? My ranger and pally both currently spend 10 AP total to gain +80 devotion. (Not to mention another 12 AP for 33.1% healing amp.)

And I very much like the skills I have on them considering I built them with a specific and intentional number of skill points, including a +2 int tome kicking in at level 7.

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 02:51 PM
It's kinda funny that if you have 8 int and no points in spellcraft, you get negative spell power. Better fix that.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 03:01 PM
It's kinda funny that if you have 8 int and no points in spellcraft, you get negative spell power. Better fix that.

That actually is funny. But is it really any different than getting negative AC for 8 dex or negative will saves for 8 wis? (I would say negative HPs for 8 CON but I know better).

Enoach
04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
And how are your Blade Barriers looking with 7 spell power before items and metas? Not all clerics want to be healbots who occasionally divine power things.


Well, for that specifically it's probably looking better. Clerics on live are unable to put a single point of spell power into blade barrier.

My 19/1 cleric/wizard who splashed for the bonus feat, +40 force spell power and master's touch during the low levels is pretty well screwed, though. I can kiss that +40 force goodbye, meaning a fighter level will become infinitely preferable to a wizard level for my caster cleric. That just feels wrong.


erm, you notice he said he put only 13 point in protection so he have 13 universal spell power + spellcraft skill. And if you are not a heal cleric, then you should be putting point into protection line for spell power instead.

Spellcraft skill is not the main way to gain spellpower at all. before this change, you gain spell power from enhancement. probably spending lots of AP to maxout 2 - 3 line of Spellpower. in the new system, you gain spellpower from spending points on enhancement + spellcraft skill points.

I now have 20 Spell Power on a pure cleric vs 0 Spell Power before equipment etc. I would say they are looking better by 20%.

I don't know how the Wizard Spell Power enhancement is going to play our, but I would assume that even with a moderate (10/12) Intelligence you are going to at least pick up 1-3 points from Spell Craft.

Totally agree, spellcraft is not going to provide a huge bonus to Spell Power since it is already limited to 23 Maximum ranks and if you look at 38 as a median Caster stat outside of high end buffs/tomes your look at a Intelligence based character getting a top range of 47%. I won't comment on if that will make wizards the NEW power horse until after I review the Wizard and Sorcerer Enhancements.

redoubt
04-13-2013, 04:23 PM
Perform I admit is a little stupid since only bards and bard splashes can even have the skill. Then again, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics and Favored souls only use their sonic spells for the stun chances, and have much better damaging options, while that isn't the case for bard.

Repair isn't a class skill for sorcerers, so they'll be short 12 points compared to a wiz/arti (assuming they even have the skill point to throw into repair each level, which is less likely as wiz/arti are int classes)

Heal is only a class skill for clerics, favored souls, paladins, druids and rangers, all of whom except ranger are tight on skill points already. Druids are 4+int mod per level, which is enough for Concentration, UMD, Heal and Spellcraft if you boost your int up to 10. Bards, artis, dragonmarked halflings (remember dragonmarks are enhancements on Lam so easier to get), pale masters, and characters that use renewal/rejuvenation cocoon won't have heal as a class skill, but at least they can put half a point in.

It is tight for rangers too... for example, my ranger (who splashes 1 rogue) takes full ranks of search, spot, disable, open lock, umd and intimidate. That already requires a LOT of INT...

Flavilandile
04-14-2013, 12:06 AM
I've been pondering for a while on this particular change, while dissecting the enhancement bit...

And I've come to the conclusion that this change needs to come with a skill reset at least, as most of us have made skill choices that will be invalidated.
The typical example being Clerics ( and divines in general )... Unless your Cleric a 7 Year Old 28 Pointer and has not be reincarnated you will not have any rank in Heal as it was a useless skill. ( Heal had a use in the begining, as the more heal you had, the more HP were healed by shrines )

Also the Stat for Spellcraft should be Class Dependant ( Wis for Clr, Int for Wiz, ... )

Jaid314
04-14-2013, 12:56 AM
( Heal had a use in the begining, as the more heal you had, the more HP were healed by shrines )

heal still has that function. it's just that nobody cares any more.

FranOhmsford
04-14-2013, 02:12 PM
Nope you forgot one problem by the time you get a level where concentration is needed most people have picked up quicken which basically negates concentration thus you can dump it. So basically its a choice to pigeon hole yourself, or pick up quicken (which most builds do anyway) and not worry about concentration and instead put that into spell craft.

Sorceres being the exception but they also have only two stats chr and con so picking up intel shouldn't be all that hard.

Quicken is used for ONE Spell!

Mass Heal!

That's it!

What you're suggesting is that suddenly EVERY Cleric HAS to keep Quicken on at ALL times for ALL Spells!

Sounds like a Massive Nerf to me!

ZeebaNeighba
04-14-2013, 02:53 PM
I've been pondering for a while on this particular change, while dissecting the enhancement bit...

And I've come to the conclusion that this change needs to come with a skill reset at least, as most of us have made skill choices that will be invalidated.
The typical example being Clerics ( and divines in general )... Unless your Cleric a 7 Year Old 28 Pointer and has not be reincarnated you will not have any rank in Heal as it was a useless skill. ( Heal had a use in the begining, as the more heal you had, the more HP were healed by shrines )

Also the Stat for Spellcraft should be Class Dependant ( Wis for Clr, Int for Wiz, ... )I heard we our free LR reset when the enhancement pass comes.

It was somewhere in the thread about the free lesser in u14.