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Charononus
04-12-2013, 05:39 PM
http://www.tentonhammer.com/index.php?q=node/109

tell me I'm crazy and there aren't tons of similarities happening.

Kilbar
04-12-2013, 05:41 PM
http://www.tentonhammer.com/index.php?q=node/109

tell me I'm crazy and there aren't tons of similarities happening.

I already mentioned this in another thread and directly warned SqueakOfDoom to google it and see what could happen if this goes live.

Originally, SWG had DDO outright BEATEN hands down for versatility in custom builds. Then the NGE came down and you were pigeon holed into nine Iconic Classes (Sound familiar? It's what SWG called 'em too) that had nice and pretty skill trees.

Charononus
04-12-2013, 05:42 PM
I already mentioned this in another thread and directly warned SqueakOfDoom to google it and see what could happen if this goes live.

I must have missed that.

Ape_Man
04-12-2013, 05:45 PM
This is more like the diet-coke of NGE but it's still worse than what's already in place.

rimble
04-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Definitely has been my big concern since this even started being discussed, and it's not off to a great start. I've actually pretty much withdrawn from the game for the past month or two, expecting an NGE-like event.

Scrap the pretty pictures/diagrams, the simplification imposes too many restrictions. Just work on/fix up the existing enhancements and surrounding system, that's all anyone wanted.

Kilbar
04-12-2013, 06:11 PM
This is more like the diet-coke of NGE but it's still worse than what's already in place.

I'll admit, the way Sony dropped the NGE on players with no warning a mere two weeks after a major expansion had come out makes the actual impact far more shocking, but given Turbine's history of putting things in Lama-land for "testing" and then going live with it despite all feedback given, we could just be watching a train wreck in slow motion instead of full speed.

Ape_Man
04-12-2013, 06:21 PM
I'll admit, the way Sony dropped the NGE on players with no warning a mere two weeks after a major expansion had come out makes the actual impact far more shocking, but given Turbine's history of putting things in Lama-land for "testing" and then going live with it despite all feedback given, we could just be watching a train wreck in slow motion instead of full speed.

The ONLY thing that makes this not an NGE moment is it still can be changed.

Charononus
04-12-2013, 06:22 PM
To me the scariest part of the article and these current changes are this

LucasArts reputedly pressed SOE into a another round of deeper changes directed towards making the "meat" of the game even more accessible to the casual gamer, and the New Game Enhancements (or "NGE") bounded onto the scene in explosive fashion.

Kilbar
04-12-2013, 06:34 PM
To me the scariest part of the article and these current changes are this

You noticed that too, huh? Yeah, folks who'd worked for literally MONTHS to unlock Jedi suddenly saw Jedi made into a starting profession. Think about that for a moment... There's literally nothing comparable in the game except maybe some of the highest tier favor unlocks. And even then, it's nowhere near as awesome to unlock Vet II or whatever as JEDI! Others who'd spent the entire lifetime of the game thus far playing Beastmasters, a pet class that could have a retinue of everything from Womp Rats to Rancors at his command suddenly discovered that their class (along with 22 others) no longer EXISTED!!!

Kilbar
04-12-2013, 07:42 PM
On further reflection, since this is a New Enhancement pass that will affect the entire Game, I move that it henceforth be referred to as the NGE. If they're gonna resurrect a lousy idea, may as well make sure that they're aware WE know its lousy too.

Memnir
04-12-2013, 09:31 PM
A better question would be if Turbine has learned from history.
If not...

Ganolyn
04-12-2013, 10:18 PM
The ONLY thing that makes this not an NGE moment is it still can be changed.

That makes it the New Coke of NGE, not the Diet Coke.

gphysalis
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
A better question would be if Turbine has learned from history.
If not...

Average man learns from his mistakes

Foolish man does not learn from his mistakes

Wise man learns from other's mistakes

Ape_Man
04-12-2013, 10:52 PM
That makes it the New Coke of NGE, not the Diet Coke.

/win

MRMechMan
04-12-2013, 11:50 PM
The combat system and the build customization options are basically the only things that seperates DDO from the rest of the pile.

The enhancement pass kills off a LOT of build options.

I'll keep an eye on how things develop, as it's early, but I think they are going in the wrong direction with this in a lot of ways.

HAL
04-13-2013, 12:22 AM
Since DDO is older, has sub-par graphics, klugey programming and a huge host of bugs, what distinguishes it from Neverwinter? A truly in-depth, complex character creation system. Nerf that system and what keeps the players from running to Neverwinter? Nothing.

I don't want DDO to lose to Neverwinter. I like the character creation system. I hope that in an effort to appeal to the "masses" DDO doesn't nerf themselves out of existence.

FestusHood
04-13-2013, 12:30 AM
Well, that review is not a good example of what's happening here. The reviewer mentions something at the start about 32 classes being compressed into 9. Then during the entire rest of his review, never mentions much about this again. Almost all of his complaints were about technical and graphic hitches, totally unrelated to the character enhancement system.

Even at the end of the article, in his pros and cons, he mentions nothing about the character creation system.

Vellrad
04-13-2013, 12:43 AM
If only 2 things that are best in this game, character building and multiclassing, are going to get removed (or so heaviliy nerfed that there is hardly difference between beign removed or not), the game will lose its only strenght.
They can as well shut servers.

FestusHood
04-13-2013, 01:24 AM
Since DDO is older, has sub-par graphics, klugey programming and a huge host of bugs, what distinguishes it from Neverwinter? A truly in-depth, complex character creation system. Nerf that system and what keeps the players from running to Neverwinter? Nothing.

I don't want DDO to lose to Neverwinter. I like the character creation system. I hope that in an effort to appeal to the "masses" DDO doesn't nerf themselves out of existence.

Is the current system complex? Maybe, but not because the end result is necessarily a large variety in buiild types.

To my mind, the current enhancements can be divided into 2 types.

A. Enhancements that are really good, and everyone should always take.

B. Enhancements that are really bad, and nobody should ever take.

The build diversity that exists in DDO right now, on live, has very little to do with the enhancement system. All you have to do is look at the critiques on these forums to see that there is a very strict consensus on what enhancements are worth taking, and which ones aren't. For that matter the same thing can be said about feats.

What's the difference between an arcane archer and a tempest? One has 20& off hand, and the other has slayer arrows. Other than that, i assure you , all rangers are built 95% the same, and if not, they are immediately labeled as gimps.

In the new system, a tempest ranger and an arcane archer look like pretty different animals. This is due to the core abilities, which currently make up almost all of the enhancements, being placed into one tree or another. I don't think the problem is that it is limiting diversity. It's that it is forcing diversity. Now whether that's good or not is a different argument.

Apparently, all endgame martial builds are using manyshot these days. Some would say that because all of these various builds can incorporate manyshot, it's a sign of diversity. I say, if all of the characters have manyshot, that is the very opposite of diversity.

Same could be said of umd. It's said that all good endgame builds should have this abilty. Never mind how patently ridiculous it is to have a barbarian, who should be the very antithesis of magic, using high level wands and scrolls.

I'm not saying that the new system doesn't need some tweaking. It certainly does. I hate to see devotion enhancements gone from rangers and paladins, with no real ability to get that back. Unless, maybe, we will see a new wave of ranger/cleric splashes? A different beast than has prowled these grounds before?

When you see someone with a splash of 4 fighter, you really won't know immediately what that person actually took from those fighter levels. Not like now, when you see someone with a 2 fighter splash and you know that they have strength 1, toughness 1, and haste 1.

Qezuzu
04-13-2013, 01:42 AM
If only 2 things that are best in this game, character building and multiclassing, are going to get removed (or so heaviliy nerfed that there is hardly difference between beign removed or not), the game will lose its only strenght.

Is this the case though? Sure, current multi-class builds will be removed, but is it so hard to make a multi-class build with this new system?

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:00 AM
Is this the case though? Sure, current multi-class builds will be removed, but is it so hard to make a multi-class build with this new system?

Probably not. Forumisers like to doomcry about how every change will FINALLY kill DDO, then someone creative thinks outside the box and a new build is born and copied and copied and copied until every build that does not copy it is labeled 'not viable' or gimp.

People have been whining about how long it has taken for the enhancement pass to arrive, and after their first whiff they are already mumbling last rites. Gotta love the forums.

Mubjon
04-13-2013, 03:43 AM
If only 2 things that are best in this game, character building and multiclassing, are going to get removed (or so heaviliy nerfed that there is hardly difference between beign removed or not), the game will lose its only strenght.
They can as well shut servers.

My initial reaction to the alpha enhancement trees was pretty negative, I thought it destroyed my characters as I did 19/1 or 18/1/1 and could not get everything that I have currently on live.

I am going to see how the character plays with a 5 level splash in the class. I was able to get the burst, aura which I love on my cleric and I increased the defenses of the character without using an ED yet.

My level 20 character on live has a 54 AC and 35 PRR. With the changes I made in a 15/5 build I know have a slight less healing aura (27 to 31 with 40 attempts as the base) Bursts are a slight lower as well (137 to 156 on average, again used 40 bursts as the base), but I have more AC (74 to 54) and more PRR (43 to 23) all without being in a destiny.

I do imagine that my casting is going to be worse off if the healing is any indication. All my spell power ratings are lower, especially the positive and light are about 30 lower. I have no smiting lines to boost DP so I am sure that is going to be crappy. Just testing the DP on the cube in the dojo saw starting ticks at 35, when I get 91 on live currently. That is a huge drop in DPS potential at boss fights.

I think what is going to happen is that we are going to see far less multi-classing with Clerics (have to see how FVS and Druids go) and more pure builds to help with casting. Melee clerics are going to be minimum 15 now, instead of 18 which is going to limit their healing potential and raiding as they will be at best a backup to the primary.

Dmnqwk
04-13-2013, 06:49 AM
They currently plan to restrict abilities based on 1,3,6,12,18 and 20 levels of a class. The multiclass factor will depend heavily on where they put the best abilities.

Take assassin - If assassinate was available at level 12, and was not based on rogue levels, Assassins would be able to then invest in other classes as they saw befitted them.
If assassinate required 18 rogue levels and the dc was rogue level based, you'd still take 20 levels in rogue and be penalised heavily if you took 2 levels elsewhere.

Right now, multiclassing is not about fun but about abusing whichever 1 2 or 6 level splash gives you the most overpowered abilities (eg 2 levels of paladin just for saves). Multiclass characters should not have a higher power level than single class, they should be equal with multiclass benefits coming from a broader range of skills/synergy.

If they wish to encourage multiclassing, they need to put the best abilities for prestige enhancements at the level 12 point and have the level 18 ones merely "icing on the cake" eg Giving Tempest Full damage on OH attacks at 12 then at 18 adding 3% doublestrike and dodge.

As for the current system, anyone who feels the way action points work at the moment is superior to a potential tree system is deluding themselves. Tree systems are not an automatic win and if done incorrectly they could screw up a lot of characters, but ultimately if they stopped people splashing 2 levels for pally saves they'd be improving the game tenfold.

Archangel666
04-13-2013, 07:14 AM
Average man learns from his mistakes

Foolish man does not learn from his mistakes

Wise man learns from other's mistakes

That's Sig worthy. Any objections?

Davelfus
04-13-2013, 07:17 AM
Is this the case though? Sure, current multi-class builds will be removed, but is it so hard to make a multi-class build with this new system?

i would say so, had to spend more than half of my action points on a lvl 23 stalwart def just to get the stance back on the same bonus i had on live... can't imagine it being much better for other prestiges...

sure you can multiclass, grab 3 different trees and collect a bunch of crappy low tier enhancements all day...

Charononus
04-13-2013, 09:13 AM
They currently plan to restrict abilities based on 1,3,6,12,18 and 20 levels of a class. The multiclass factor will depend heavily on where they put the best abilities.

Take assassin - If assassinate was available at level 12, and was not based on rogue levels, Assassins would be able to then invest in other classes as they saw befitted them.
If assassinate required 18 rogue levels and the dc was rogue level based, you'd still take 20 levels in rogue and be penalised heavily if you took 2 levels elsewhere.

Right now, multiclassing is not about fun but about abusing whichever 1 2 or 6 level splash gives you the most overpowered abilities (eg 2 levels of paladin just for saves). Multiclass characters should not have a higher power level than single class, they should be equal with multiclass benefits coming from a broader range of skills/synergy.

If they wish to encourage multiclassing, they need to put the best abilities for prestige enhancements at the level 12 point and have the level 18 ones merely "icing on the cake" eg Giving Tempest Full damage on OH attacks at 12 then at 18 adding 3% doublestrike and dodge.

As for the current system, anyone who feels the way action points work at the moment is superior to a potential tree system is deluding themselves. Tree systems are not an automatic win and if done incorrectly they could screw up a lot of characters, but ultimately if they stopped people splashing 2 levels for pally saves they'd be improving the game tenfold.
Your idea of beneficial change is something that makes me want to not play fyi. Messing with the system in the way you think is good will lose customers.

Karavek
04-13-2013, 09:26 AM
Your idea of beneficial change is something that makes me want to not play fyi. Messing with the system in the way you think is good will lose customers.

I concur, the wntire point to the changes of how people made characters between 2nd and 3E+ where the changes of dual class/multi class being tossed out the window, and in general in 3E most if not all iconic characters from various settings ended up heavy splash builds. Elminster in 3E+ is literally a 100% by the book character build, and is a 1ftr,2rogue,3cleric then wizard+archmage with epic lvls put further into AM. He is something anyone playing 3E could choose to recreate aside from the chosen of mystra and spell fire abilities( which do all have rules and reasons a DM might choose to let a player use them for sotry purposes) And is actually meant to be the example for 3E character building.

There is nothing wrong for example in PnP and actually rather expected, to be something like a 2/4 paladin/fighter who then takes the champions of torm PRC for 5 lvls, and maybe then dabbles in something like ranger a while to qualify for shadow dancer for evasion when its a good thing to have, and that is just using basic core books and campaign setting PRC. Throw in the wide world of splat books and I may well run a guy with 1 lvl each in 20 classes just to mess with people when they ask what I am.

Noctus
04-13-2013, 11:06 AM
Is the current system complex? Maybe, but not because the end result is necessarily a large variety in buiild types.

To my mind, the current enhancements can be divided into 2 types.

A. Enhancements that are really good, and everyone should always take.

B. Enhancements that are really bad, and nobody should ever take.

The build diversity that exists in DDO right now, on live, has very little to do with the enhancement system. All you have to do is look at the critiques on these forums to see that there is a very strict consensus on what enhancements are worth taking, and which ones aren't. For that matter the same thing can be said about feats.

What's the difference between an arcane archer and a tempest? One has 20& off hand, and the other has slayer arrows. Other than that, i assure you , all rangers are built 95% the same, and if not, they are immediately labeled as gimps.

In the new system, a tempest ranger and an arcane archer look like pretty different animals. This is due to the core abilities, which currently make up almost all of the enhancements, being placed into one tree or another. I don't think the problem is that it is limiting diversity. It's that it is forcing diversity. Now whether that's good or not is a different argument.

Apparently, all endgame martial builds are using manyshot these days. Some would say that because all of these various builds can incorporate manyshot, it's a sign of diversity. I say, if all of the characters have manyshot, that is the very opposite of diversity.

Same could be said of umd. It's said that all good endgame builds should have this abilty. Never mind how patently ridiculous it is to have a barbarian, who should be the very antithesis of magic, using high level wands and scrolls.

I'm not saying that the new system doesn't need some tweaking. It certainly does. I hate to see devotion enhancements gone from rangers and paladins, with no real ability to get that back. Unless, maybe, we will see a new wave of ranger/cleric splashes? A different beast than has prowled these grounds before?

When you see someone with a splash of 4 fighter, you really won't know immediately what that person actually took from those fighter levels. Not like now, when you see someone with a 2 fighter splash and you know that they have strength 1, toughness 1, and haste 1.


This actually game me food for my thoughts. ... !

What still stands is that i find the "Points spend in Tree"-Restriction too restricting, becauses it forces many players to "buy" stuff that they plainly do not want on their character, just to advance points-spend. This leaves a bad taste in anybodys mouth that is forced into it. thats just not a good way to design a restriction if it leaves the player building his character feeling.. well not bad, but slightly annoyed every time they work on their enhancements.

HAL
04-13-2013, 11:15 AM
Is the current system complex? Maybe, but not because the end result is necessarily a large variety in buiild types.

To my mind, the current enhancements can be divided into 2 types.

A. Enhancements that are really good, and everyone should always take.

B. Enhancements that are really bad, and nobody should ever take.

The build diversity that exists in DDO right now, on live, has very little to do with the enhancement system. All you have to do is look at the critiques on these forums to see that there is a very strict consensus on what enhancements are worth taking, and which ones aren't. For that matter the same thing can be said about feats.

What's the difference between an arcane archer and a tempest? One has 20& off hand, and the other has slayer arrows. Other than that, i assure you , all rangers are built 95% the same, and if not, they are immediately labeled as gimps.

In the new system, a tempest ranger and an arcane archer look like pretty different animals. This is due to the core abilities, which currently make up almost all of the enhancements, being placed into one tree or another. I don't think the problem is that it is limiting diversity. It's that it is forcing diversity. Now whether that's good or not is a different argument.

Apparently, all endgame martial builds are using manyshot these days. Some would say that because all of these various builds can incorporate manyshot, it's a sign of diversity. I say, if all of the characters have manyshot, that is the very opposite of diversity.

Same could be said of umd. It's said that all good endgame builds should have this abilty. Never mind how patently ridiculous it is to have a barbarian, who should be the very antithesis of magic, using high level wands and scrolls.

I'm not saying that the new system doesn't need some tweaking. It certainly does. I hate to see devotion enhancements gone from rangers and paladins, with no real ability to get that back. Unless, maybe, we will see a new wave of ranger/cleric splashes? A different beast than has prowled these grounds before?

When you see someone with a splash of 4 fighter, you really won't know immediately what that person actually took from those fighter levels. Not like now, when you see someone with a 2 fighter splash and you know that they have strength 1, toughness 1, and haste 1.

I see your point, but not everyone uses the same cookie-cutter builds. A lot of people, whether they are new, they are in a static group/guild or they are solo, create "fringe" builds to play around with. This is more of the type of diversity I am talking about that won't be possible anymore.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 11:38 AM
This actually game me food for my thoughts. ... !

What still stands is that i find the "Points spend in Tree"-Restriction too restricting, becauses it forces many players to "buy" stuff that they plainly do not want on their character, just to advance points-spend. This leaves a bad taste in anybodys mouth that is forced into it. thats just not a good way to design a restriction if it leaves the player building his character feeling.. well not bad, but slightly annoyed every time they work on their enhancements.

We already have to do this for most prestiges, the choices just arent arranged visually in a tree. Nearly every prestige has enhancement and feat requirements players would rather not have to spend APs and feats on in order to qualify for the prestige.

Lagin
04-13-2013, 11:41 AM
A better question would be if Turbine has learned from history.
If not...

Yup:cool:

Drona
04-13-2013, 11:52 AM
Is the current system complex? Maybe, but not because the end result is necessarily a large variety in buiild types.

To my mind, the current enhancements can be divided into 2 types.

A. Enhancements that are really good, and everyone should always take.

B. Enhancements that are really bad, and nobody should ever take.

The build diversity that exists in DDO right now, on live, has very little to do with the enhancement system. All you have to do is look at the critiques on these forums to see that there is a very strict consensus on what enhancements are worth taking, and which ones aren't. For that matter the same thing can be said about feats.

What's the difference between an arcane archer and a tempest? One has 20& off hand, and the other has slayer arrows. Other than that, i assure you , all rangers are built 95% the same, and if not, they are immediately labeled as gimps.

In the new system, a tempest ranger and an arcane archer look like pretty different animals. This is due to the core abilities, which currently make up almost all of the enhancements, being placed into one tree or another. I don't think the problem is that it is limiting diversity. It's that it is forcing diversity. Now whether that's good or not is a different argument.

Apparently, all endgame martial builds are using manyshot these days. Some would say that because all of these various builds can incorporate manyshot, it's a sign of diversity. I say, if all of the characters have manyshot, that is the very opposite of diversity.

Same could be said of umd. It's said that all good endgame builds should have this abilty. Never mind how patently ridiculous it is to have a barbarian, who should be the very antithesis of magic, using high level wands and scrolls.

I'm not saying that the new system doesn't need some tweaking. It certainly does. I hate to see devotion enhancements gone from rangers and paladins, with no real ability to get that back. Unless, maybe, we will see a new wave of ranger/cleric splashes? A different beast than has prowled these grounds before?

When you see someone with a splash of 4 fighter, you really won't know immediately what that person actually took from those fighter levels. Not like now, when you see someone with a 2 fighter splash and you know that they have strength 1, toughness 1, and haste 1.

This is a wonderful post! +1

ZeebaNeighba
04-13-2013, 02:16 PM
The problem, as others said, is the requirement to spend AP where you don't want them.

I'm sure my favored soul arcane archer is a goner if the enhancement pass goes live as it is. I need to spend about 60 AP just to get the Arcane Archer stuff I want, leaving me with **** from the other favored soul trees. Notice how, on live, I don't have a load of elf enhancements to use my slaying arrows. I have elf arcanum 1 because it's a prereq, spent 12 points taking the actual AA line, and technically the 40 force spell power enhancement I have says it's available to "level 2 elf" though it's at the same time kind of a wizard enhancement. That's it, iirc. 66 points for favored soul goodies.

An option I won't have later.

Taojeff
04-13-2013, 02:19 PM
The problem, as others said, is the requirement to spend AP where you don't want them.

I'm sure my favored soul arcane archer is a goner if the enhancement pass goes live as it is. I need to spend about 60 AP just to get the Arcane Archer stuff I want, leaving me with **** from the other favored soul trees. Notice how, on live, I don't have a load of elf enhancements to use my slaying arrows. I have elf arcanum 1 because it's a prereq, spent 12 points taking the actual AA line, and technically the 40 force spell power enhancement I have says it's available to "level 2 elf" though it's at the same time kind of a wizard enhancement. That's it, iirc. 66 points for favored soul goodies.

An option I won't have later.

You should not be able to get the best parts of a build without getting through the trees... why because it would be downright op and a balance issue. Every tree game does this...why should ddo be any different. The tree system is a step in the right direction to improving balance issues.

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 02:35 PM
The problem, as others said, is the requirement to spend AP where you don't want them.

And that's new how?

nibel
04-13-2013, 02:35 PM
You noticed that too, huh? Yeah, folks who'd worked for literally MONTHS to unlock Jedi suddenly saw Jedi made into a starting profession. Think about that for a moment... There's literally nothing comparable in the game except maybe some of the highest tier favor unlocks.

Except by all the Jedi background, I think we do have something comparable in this game.

Completionist.

Imagine that everyone that pre-buy the next expansion gets one passive past life per class for free. Every character you make from now on is a 36-pts build, that can buy completionist. I bet a lot of completionists would be flipping out.

There are some stuff that we don't care much if new players have an easier way to acquire now, like greensteel or dragontouched armor. But Completionist and all the tasty stuff merged on that feat, plus all the work needed to get those 13 past lifes...

GeneralDiomedes
04-13-2013, 02:40 PM
Probably not. Forumisers like to doomcry about how every change will FINALLY kill DDO, then someone creative thinks outside the box and a new build is born and copied and copied and copied until every build that does not copy it is labeled 'not viable' or gimp.

DDO ... still here since 2006.

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 02:40 PM
And that's new how?

That's pretty new. My Paladin has to buy some fluff to qualify for DoS, but largely the enhancements I spend my points in are up to me. Very few enhancements have gates requiring more than a number of AP spent and the level of the Class or, in the case of Racial enhancements, the level of the character.

By largely getting rid of level requirements they had to completely redesign everything.

It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:42 PM
And that's new how?

That isn't new. I think what is more frustrating for some people is that in the current system I can spend APs in any 'tree' be it class or racial, and the total APs spent across all 'trees' count for a the minimum APs spent requirements for a particular enhancement whereas now only the APs spent in the specific tree count for the minimum APs spent requirements for an enhancement in that tree.


I'm on the fence about it. It completely changes how I choose enhancement progression, and now I can go with a cleric who can get the healing aura by level 9 (10?) if I ignore other enhancements in other trees I'd typically get, or I may not get my healing aura until after 12. That is actually seems to give me more choices while leveling than I have now. It is quite possibly a good thing.

Postumus
04-13-2013, 02:43 PM
It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

This is just more ammo for my theory that EDs were the first step in the morph from DDO to DDO2. Or to keep it in DnD terms, from 1st edition DDO to 2nd edition.

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 02:44 PM
You should not be able to get the best parts of a build without getting through the trees... why because it would be downright op and a balance issue. Every tree game does this...why should ddo be any different. The tree system is a step in the right direction to improving balance issues.

Well, they could get rid of the stupid "tree game", but they won't of course. They've already done the artwork designs and started coding. The best we can hope for is getting them to balance the costs to something sane.

Really before they got to this stage they should have started an "alpha". Explaining what they were thinking changing things completely around, before they actually got started, because all the lip service aside about our "feedback", they aren't going to make many real changes to the system, if at all. If they did it would require more work, which costs more money, and it would throw away work already developed, which would be wasting money. And as a subsidiary of Warner Brothers, that's not something Turbine can afford to do.

So looks like we're stuck with it no matter what.

Ape_Man
04-13-2013, 03:02 PM
We already have to do this for most prestiges, the choices just arent arranged visually in a tree. Nearly every prestige has enhancement and feat requirements players would rather not have to spend APs and feats on in order to qualify for the prestige.

Do you even play this game?

Ape_Man
04-13-2013, 03:04 PM
People have been whining about how long it has taken for the enhancement pass to arrive, and after their first whiff they are already mumbling last rites. Gotta love the forums.

And they know the game better than most, many players could learn something from listening to them.

Dilbon
04-13-2013, 03:05 PM
It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

gphysalis
04-13-2013, 03:43 PM
That's Sig worthy. Any objections?

no objections at all

:)

Davelfus
04-13-2013, 03:49 PM
I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

If such toys lead to less build diversity, then i say we burn them with fire, and some acid clouds
just to be sure :)

with the current ap cost and prereqs, it is pretty hard to move to a second or even third tree to get more nice stuff
also the several mia enhancements worries me a lot... there is a reason ppl are missing them... they are used a lot on live...

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 03:58 PM
Probably not. Forumisers like to doomcry about how every change will FINALLY kill DDO, then someone creative thinks outside the box and a new build is born and copied and copied and copied until every build that does not copy it is labeled 'not viable' or gimp.

People have been whining about how long it has taken for the enhancement pass to arrive, and after their first whiff they are already mumbling last rites. Gotta love the forums.

No, people have been "whining" on the forums because we knew the Devs wanted to change the enhancements around and we wanted to see what they were going to do and when so that we could prepare our builds, instead of building blindly. Like we had to do before the Devs released PrEs, with the level requirements that we weren't told about. So if your build couldn't fit into 6/12/18, tough luck no PrE tier x for you. So knowing the tradition of Turbine to ignore just about all input and common sense, we wanted to know as soon as possible what they were doing.

And now we finally see what they are planning. And they're getting exactly the feedback they deserve.


This is just more ammo for my theory that EDs were the first step in the morph from DDO to DDO2. Or to keep it in DnD terms, from 1st edition DDO to 2nd edition.

That's just stupid. DDO2 should be a DDO2, not DDO1+. The game's code is too old to transition from one type of game into another. Especially when other games have similar concepts and are built from the ground up to fulfill that vision. This just makes the game look like an inferior copy of those games. A "johnny-come-lately" even though they predate most of those games.

But, considering how cheap Turbine has been of late, you're probably right. Instead of creating a game from the ground up, they'll just try to re-arrange an old game and announce it as "new".

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 10:11 PM
I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

Actually, mister platitudes, now is not the time to "embrace the new". Now is the time to make objections known. The time to "embrace the new" is when Turbine finally puts it Live, when I have no choice left other than not to play the game much, if at all.

So thanks for your advice and all, but I'm gonna put it into the category it deserves.

Zorth
04-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Interesting.

no comment at the moment.

All I can say for ddo is our lore goes back 50 years. Chainmail!

We will not let this happen.

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 10:43 PM
Interesting.

no comment at the moment.

All I can say for ddo is our lore goes back 50 years. Chainmail!

We will not let this happen.

You do realize that's still less than Star Wars, right? Please have a point better than that, because it falls flat otherwise. We're trying our best "not to let this happen" because it would suck for us all that the "game", the "system", what have you, screwed it up and sent us off to the next game, thus losing all our "progress" here. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have this system work, rather than tell me it's given up and become another system entirely.

If they're going to go down such a bold road, then they have to have the infastructure to match. It's fine to restructure the game and bring it into a better balance, as long you can actually do so. Now that you require "heal" as a skill for instance, are you going to give the skill points to match? Or do I just take away from what I've built from the game that was to compensate for the game that is. I know it's tough for most people to understand, but I don't want to "rob peter to pay paul". That's just stupid to expect such. So I would have to expect to have lesser overall abilities than I have now, so that Turbine can balance it's game? What, again? How many times do they expect that to be the norm.

I'm getting tired of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Turbine better have a heck of an Endgame to make me do that.

Kilbar
04-13-2013, 11:33 PM
You do realize that's still less than Star Wars, right? Please have a point better than that, because it falls flat otherwise. We're trying our best "not to let this happen" because it would suck for us all that the "game", the "system", what have you, screwed it up and sent us off to the next game, thus losing all our "progress" here. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have this system work, rather than tell me it's given up and become another system entirely.

No, no it really isn't. Star Wars came out in '77. Chainmail came out in '71. Not the fifty years that was quoted, but still longer than you apparently thought. Unless, of course, you're counting Star Wars' spiritual antecedents in the Republic Serials of the 1930s in which case DnD gets to count wargames as far back as the Duke of Brunswick's first wargame in 1780.

eonfreon
04-13-2013, 11:51 PM
No, no it really isn't. Star Wars came out in '77. Chainmail came out in '71. Not the fifty years that was quoted, but still longer than you apparently thought. Unless, of course, you're counting Star Wars' spiritual antecedents in the Republic Serials of the 1930s in which case DnD gets to count wargames as far back as the Duke of Brunswick's first wargame in 1780.

No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awareness, the Duke's wargames not withstanding. We all know about "wargames". The concept is far older than the Duke's rendition. But far less people care. Whereas, something that is a tangible concept that the "common man" can see and feel, Star Wars far outdates "Role Playing Games", even if they come from an "older concept'. Because how many people, even in the 70s were messing around with minitures and fake terrain when compared to the people who bought Star Wars figurines?

Postumus
04-14-2013, 12:04 AM
No, people have been "whining" on the forums because we knew the Devs wanted to change the enhancements around and we wanted to see what they were going to do and when so that we could prepare our builds, instead of building blindly. Like we had to do before the Devs released PrEs, with the level requirements that we weren't told about. So if your build couldn't fit into 6/12/18, tough luck no PrE tier x for you. So knowing the tradition of Turbine to ignore just about all input and common sense, we wanted to know as soon as possible what they were doing.

And now we finally see what they are planning. And they're getting exactly the feedback they deserve.


This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.



That's just stupid. DDO2 should be a DDO2, not DDO1+. w".

Relax chum. I was only half serious.

Postumus
04-14-2013, 12:09 AM
No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awarenesses?

Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

eonfreon
04-14-2013, 12:13 AM
This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.




Relax chum. I was only half serious.

Thank you Capt Obvious. I was hoping you were only half serious. Any more than that....

You see the difference is I actually do look at the enhancements and give feedback based on that, whereas, it seems you give feedback based on other people's feedback. I'm sure that's worth something though. At least you're pointing out when someone has good feedback and when they don't. That's certain to be of help in the long run for sure.

Thank you, I guess?

Charononus
04-14-2013, 12:16 AM
This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.




Relax chum. I was only half serious.
Actually there is no way for you to know what kind of feedback someone has given, you can't see the bug reports, survey's, ext that have been submitted. Personally I spent 2 hours just filling out reports and surveys. The forums have never seemed to be the dev's primary source for feedback but are more of a discussion with players. Also if someone looks at the ep and starts screaming omg what have you done, that is still feedback.

Bacab
04-14-2013, 12:18 AM
It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

I feel this way too.

Postumus
04-14-2013, 12:20 AM
And they know the game better than most, many players could learn something from listening to them

Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

eonfreon
04-14-2013, 12:24 AM
Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

Sure, "chum". Chainmail was On the scene before Star Wars. But I'll stand by the fact that "no one cared" at that time. Chainmail wasn't relevant until DnD was relevant.

But fine, I was "wrong". About what, I'm not sure, but there's no way you can tell me that DnD culture "predates" Star Wars. Because Chainmail was a very small segment. The fact it came first has little impact on the effect it had on popular culture, or "lore" as it was presented. I remember watching Star Wars in the theatre back in 77. Didn't hear of DnD or "Chainmail" until years later. I had a bunch of Star Wars action figures long before I cracked open the "Basic Set" and then found out about Ad&D. You gonna tell me I was different from every kid on the block, chum?

And when looked at the quote I responded to, it really looks silly. The "DnD" lore? Shoot, at that point just point to the kids who read Tolkien and claim that inspiration.

Ape_Man
04-14-2013, 12:29 AM
Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

I'm loud and I'm always right. Try again.

Postumus
04-14-2013, 12:33 AM
i'm always loud and i'm rarely right.

ftfy.

Ape_Man
04-14-2013, 12:34 AM
ftfy.


Please, if I were wrong on everything I'd be you.

Jaid314
04-14-2013, 01:46 AM
This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.


if turbine had a better track record of listening to fan feedback, i'd feel a lot more reassured about this being only alpha and subject to change.

now, they've done well... on occasion. but if i'm going to feel reassured, i need *consistency* in knowing i'm not about to get screwed over.

for example, it is a bit... disconcerting that the devs did not notice that rangers are now healing for dramatically less. one would think that if they played a ranger, this would be immediately noticeable, as the difference is something like 50 points per heal on a relatively small value (i think that ~50 point difference was on someone using maximize, and getting ~250ish on live... so a 20% decrease, which like i said, should be fairly noticeable)

or that they haven't noticed that +1 to hit is not worth +2 AP.

or that they seem to think that every tank uses a sword and shield 100% of the time, instead of switching between THF and S&B as the situation calls for it.

or that they still think +8 to strength when you're on your deathbed only is actually worth anything at all.

and so on.

Elaril
04-14-2013, 02:05 AM
Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

This post is staggeringly ironic.

Kilbar
04-14-2013, 01:14 PM
No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awareness, the Duke's wargames not withstanding. We all know about "wargames". The concept is far older than the Duke's rendition. But far less people care. Whereas, something that is a tangible concept that the "common man" can see and feel, Star Wars far outdates "Role Playing Games", even if they come from an "older concept'. Because how many people, even in the 70s were messing around with minitures and fake terrain when compared to the people who bought Star Wars figurines?

Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

Postumus
04-14-2013, 01:29 PM
Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

"Bucket O' Plastic Army Men" for the win?

(I also had those crappy cowboy and Indian plastics. Always had the Indian braves with bow legs spread akimbo for a horse, which I never had, so they invariably had to be propped against something to stay upright.)

Kilbar
04-14-2013, 01:34 PM
"Bucket O' Plastic Army Men" for the win?

(I also had those crappy cowboy and Indian plastics. Always had the Indian braves with bow legs spread akimbo for a horse, which I never had, so they invariably had to be propped against something to stay upright.)

And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

eonfreon
04-14-2013, 02:59 PM
Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

Exactly. Which had absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail or any Wargames. Yes, every kid played with toys, that's pretty much what kids do. Now, during the 70s, how many kids were playing by any type of "war game" rules? I mean printed and established rules, because lining up your cowboys and indians or army soldiers and "making them fight" is not following any rules other than that of imagination.

Those are just things we learned watching "cowboy and indian" and "Soldier Men at war" tv shows. And then when Star Wars hit the scene we changed over to "Space Opera" type characters and games.

While traditional Wargames and such were confined to "hobbyists", Star Wars was sold to "every boy out there". Heck, they sold the promise of the toys before they even made them, you bought the box and sent in the proof of purchase to get the toys when they first came out.

Trying to equate kids using their imagination as having anything to do with Chainmail, a product that was hardly known in it's day, is quite a stretch. And are you now trying to equate any type of "play" and improv to some sort of "popular culture" to prove your point about Chainmail? It's hilarious that you'd go that far on a tangent to "prove me wrong". Yes, Chainmail came before Star Wars. I'm still going with the fact that it didn't matter when it came out, because hardly anybody knew about it, it only caught on when it became DnD. And DnD didn't start having "lore" until it was popular enough to be played by a decent amount of kids, much, much later then all the kids who owned many Star Wars toys. And the majority of DnD "lore" came from outright "lifting" it from Tolkien's work.

Is Chainmail relevent? Sure, to us who play DDO and actually played DnD back in the late 70s early 80s, we know about it. How many actually had it in their possession, at any point in time? How many know about the "Fighting Man"?

Far, far, far less than those who know Obi Wan or Chewbacca.

So playing with toys, cowboys and indians or army men or dinosaurs, has absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail, or people's awareness of it. Chainmail is only known about nowadays because of it's relation to DnD. Playing with toys since the "Caveman days" does not make Chainmail part of popular culture. When it was out it was barely even known about by the hobbyists, let alone the regular kids. Compared to the effect that Star Wars had, Chainmail was barely on the radar. DnD grew slowly, but it didn't have anywhere near the impact that Star Wars did. Heck, it only really reached "public awareness" status when some religious groups went on a campaign against it. Then there was a movie that portrayed it completely wrong; "Mazes and Monsters".

Every person is different and people are inspired by different things, so yes, DnD and such could have a very profound effect on an individual. But on a far smaller scale, in relation.

DnD was far more "important" in my life then Star Wars ever could be. Even so I can see the fundamental difference. Certain people know what I mean by "Fighting Man", but very, very few compared to how many know "Chewbacca".

eonfreon
04-14-2013, 03:12 PM
And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

And by going on this tangent: Chainmail. Really. Loses. Badly.

Kilbar
04-14-2013, 03:12 PM
Exactly. Which had absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail or any Wargames. Yes, every kid played with toys, that's pretty much what kids do. Now, during the 70s, how many kids were playing by any type of "war game" rules? I mean printed and established rules, because lining up your cowboys and indians or army soldiers and "making them fight" is not following any rules other than that of imagination.

Those are just things we learned watching "cowboy and indian" and "Soldier Men at war" tv shows. And then when Star Wars hit the scene we changed over to "Space Opera" type characters and games.

While traditional Wargames and such were confined to "hobbyists", Star Wars was sold to "every boy out there". Heck, they sold the promise of the toys before they even made them, you bought the box and sent in the proof of purchase to get the toys when they first came out.

Trying to equate kids using their imagination as having anything to do with Chainmail, a product that was hardly known in it's day, is quite a stretch. And are you now trying to equate any type of "play" and improv to some sort of "popular culture" to prove your point about Chainmail? It's hilarious that you'd go that far on a tangent to "prove me wrong". Yes, Chainmail came before Star Wars. I'm still going with the fact that it didn't matter when it came out, because hardly anybody knew about it, it only caught on when it became DnD. And DnD didn't start having "lore" until it was popular enough to be played by a decent amount of kids, much, much later then all the kids who owned many Star Wars toys. And the majority of DnD "lore" came from outright "lifting" it from Tolkien's work.

Is Chainmail relevent? Sure, to us who play DDO and actually played DnD back in the late 70s early 80s, we know about it. How many actually had it in their possession, at any point in time? How many know about the "Fighting Man"?

Far, far, far less than those who know Obi Wan or Chewbacca.

So playing with toys, cowboys and indians or army men or dinosaurs, has absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail, or people's awareness of it. Chainmail is only known about nowadays because of it's relation to DnD. Playing with toys since the "Caveman days" does not make Chainmail part of popular culture. When it was out it was barely even known about by the hobbyists, let alone the regular kids. Compared to the effect that Star Wars had, Chainmail was barely on the radar. DnD grew slowly, but it didn't have anywhere near the impact that Star Wars did. Heck, it only really reached "public awareness" status when some religious groups went on a campaign against it. Then there was a movie that portrayed it completely wrong; "Mazes and Monsters".

Every person is different and people are inspired by different things, so yes, DnD and such could have a very profound effect on an individual. But on a far smaller scale, in relation.

DnD was far more "important" in my life then Star Wars ever could be. Even so I can see the fundamental difference. Certain people know what I mean by "Fighting Man", but very, very few compared to how many know "Chewbacca".

You have a differing opinion and I respect that. I don't care to argue this further.

Scraap
04-14-2013, 03:14 PM
And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

Guy with a shiny sword and magical powers rescues a princess from an evil lord.

Which one am I talking about?


As to them setting themselves up to repeat the same mistakes others have made? Hoping not. Them kicking this stuff into the light of day early does mitigate the concerns a bit, depending on how many passes per class-batch we'll end up seeing (A this rate, I'm not really thinking 2 or even 4 will end up being enough, but we'll see.)

Talon_Moonshadow
04-14-2013, 03:55 PM
Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

He should have just said he meant: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away. :cool:

eonfreon
04-14-2013, 04:10 PM
He should have just said he meant: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away. :cool:

The fact that you use that movie quote kind of proves my point. You've probably seen the movies, right?

Now, have you ever actually even held the Chainmail rulebook in your hands?

If you did, then you're one of the very, very few who has.

Charononus
04-14-2013, 04:48 PM
The fact that you use that movie quote kind of proves my point. You've probably seen the movies, right?

Now, have you ever actually even held the Chainmail rulebook in your hands?

If you did, then you're one of the very, very few who has.

Go ask 100 people on the street what chainmail is and they will respond with
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130115082109/pillarsoftheearth/images/a/a1/Chainmail.jpg
or
http://blog.sysomos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/question-mark.jpg

Ask who Darth Vader is and you'll get:
http://www.calbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/darthVader.jpg

Wwalmart
04-15-2013, 10:17 AM
Barbarian! and call it a day........