View Full Version : Divine think tank

04-12-2013, 02:36 PM
Yes I know I said id be severely limiting my posting on these boards, but this is to important for that. I wont be silly and think this thread wont get its flamers but I ask those of you who are serious about this ignore and refrain from arguing with them.

This thread point blank is to get those of us who love the cleric class, who want to see this new system really work with some of our issues and concerns get together some ideas to make the class more versatile and fun. I will use this to give feedback as I am testing on Lamannia as well but for now here are a few things I have noticed in my initial attempts:

After the initial shock of loading without my original enhancements I went to the nearest trainer and pulled up the new system. I had elven, protection and healing up with invalid being the only other choice.

As an elf I was very happy about Arcanum finally being accessed by my cleric, spell pen was a hard thing to incorporate into her build but I managed to do it and like her being a caster cleric. Thing is to open up arcanum I had to take other enhancements in the racial line I had no use for. That was aggravating.

Decided since it was Lamannia to change the build a bit LR and take the dragonmark feats to see why it is such a strong focus in the elven path, while the 4 shots at a spell point free neg level spell is nice not worth all the AP to get it, and id rather see that ability added to a damage type list for divines.

De-leveling stuff is apart of our spell abilities so why not give us more towards that?

Protection, my initial thoughts is its not that appealing (personal critique it screams of buffbot while not really giving buffs that are impressive). But the more I think on it nothing I saw in that path was memorable enough to give it more than a passing glance. As I play it more I will see since I fully plan to try to give things a chance but really the main concern I have is a lot of investment for buffs that don't last long enough (on other people in your group no less) to matter.

Healing- No this will not be an argument about heal bots its pointless, the problem I have as I seen others point out is its a lot of an investment to get to the top tier to do far less than what we can currently do on live spending far less on enhancements. All to have a toggled ability that will give our heals oomph at the expense of our damage spells and for those who like to melee forget about it.. I don't like this and I hope to provide more feedback as I work with this path more.

But last and certainly not least I hear talks of a path for those of us staying pure and that is fine but I remember how underwhelmed I was with the cleric capstone before DI did not last long enough and did not have enough range to be useful out of situational purposes. If you are seriously pushing paths of Healing and protection at us, I hope that you give us true abilities to be Epic clerics when it comes to this pure path stuff.

But as I said before just started this yesterday and I hope to leave good feedback because this is a class I care about, and I hope others who care about this class come in and leave ideas and feedback as well so that we can get divines the love they deserve.

04-13-2013, 10:09 AM
I would really like to see the following issues addressed:

1. AP points. This is an issue for all classes and races and seems to be the most common complaint. We either need more AP available, or calculate AP from all trees instead of a single tree.

2. Spellpower/DC/etc. In the current system (which is still lacking in areas like necro), we can put points into light spells and smiting. Now we can't. The healing domain grants light spellpower per point, but if you invest elsewhere you lose that build flexibility.

3. Too many prereqs. It looks like I would have to take a lot of stuff I don't want just to get to something I do want. I don't mind taking a few just like we do now, but it's a bit overboard.

4. No offensive caster domain. Yes, I know that you say there will be one later, but that doesn't really help clerics now. And while I don't want to be counterproductive in this discussion, it is certainly not unfair of people to point out that the last time they were promised PREs they never appeared. Given that we will be forced into these enhancement changes when they hit live with no ability to grandfather in our old builds, it's taking away any offensive caster build flexibility we've achieved and giving us no option in return.

The way I see clerics is this. The can do the following: heal, offensive cast, turn undead, melee. I don't count buffs because buffing takes pretty much no investment. However, a cleric can't do ALL those things effectively. They have to pick and choose. A first life 28 pt build can probably do two of those things effectively. Get a few past lives under you, and you can do three effectively. I suppose some people might manage all four, but it would take a huge investment of many, many past lives in multiple classes, tomes, gear, and ED twists to achieve.

My point is that we already have to make choices on focus with our builds. No one wants to have to choose to do only one thing well. We all like to have some flexibility for fun, to be more effective in groups and in various quests, and did I mention fun?

These domains don't feel fun. At all.

04-13-2013, 11:01 AM
I think that the issue is a disconnect between the developers and many of the people commenting on the enhancements.

It looks like the developers are placing the Cleric as a "Defensive Divine", presumably compared to the Favoured Soul who would be the "Offensive Divine".

However it is evident that many of the people on the forum see their clerics as offensive divines, and want to be able to express that in both melee and casting. They would like to be able to heal and buff as a base capability of the class in addition to melee/casting, rather than have separate enhancements for healing that might pigeonhole them into just healers.
The devs also appear to be basing the clerics upon the presence of a group, or at least one other person/hireling/summons to get the most out of the protection tree. Many players appear to want to retain the cleric's very strong solo capability.

So. Options based on what appear to be the prevailing forum opinions (Some may be a little tongue-in-cheek):
Swap the roles around: Make Clerics the Offensive Divines and Favoured Souls the Defensive Divines? Or just give up on teamwork-oriented roles: this isn't World of Warcraft where people need to work together for dungeons.
Remove the Healing and Protection trees. Give all other classes access to self-healing sufficient to not require a specific healer in a group.

Create two different cleric enhancement trees: Warpriest and Exorcist. Give levels of spellpower as a base cleric capability.
Warpriest gets melee capabilities such as weapon proficiencies and bonuses, treating melee weapons as implements, Fighter feats, and abilities like the radiant burst and auras that will enable them to heal themselves efficiently.

Exorcist gets increased Fire and Light spellpower bonuses on top of the universal ones. Add a fire or light component into the offensive cleric spells such as cometfall. Perhaps allow them to use Turn Undead charges to either boost their DCs and caster levels, or to debuff saves and spell resistance of opponents.

Ensure that even the most obscure current builds are replicable in the new system and that they all get buffed.

Balance the game around that.

04-13-2013, 11:16 AM
It looks like the developers are placing the Cleric as a "Defensive Divine", presumably compared to the Favoured Soul who would be the "Offensive Divine".

I think the difference should be similar to Wizard versus Sorceror:

Favored Soul should be the "limited-choices nuking divine", while Cleric is the "flexible DC-caster divine".

I want my Cleric divine equivalent to Archmage or Palemaster!

04-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't classify either as offensive or defensive. Which it is depends entirely on the player's playstyle and build, and I've seen both classes do both. I want DDO to retain that kind of flexibility.

I would have preferred to see three domains: Healing, Offensive Casting, Melee. Some of the stuff in Protection (AC and PRR especially, as well as Martyrdom (because clerics are only next to the melee when melee themselves), would go well in the Melee domain.

I forgot to also add in my post above that options for extra spell points are also missing.

04-13-2013, 12:07 PM
I think the best way to give constructive feedback is to be as specific as possible. So far I am just seeing a lot of general criticisms and it is hard to evaluate these constructively.

If this is teally going to be a think tank thread, then first thing would be to post the tree options (or link to them) then go through them evaluating the positives and negatives of each choice in the tree.

04-13-2013, 12:45 PM
I think the difference should be similar to Wizard versus Sorceror:

Favored Soul should be the "limited-choices nuking divine", while Cleric is the "flexible DC-caster divine".

I want my Cleric divine equivalent to Archmage or Palemaster! Do you mean as good as AM or PM at DC-casting as well as the inherent advantages of the cleric class, or overall as powerful as AM and PM in general, taking into account that the cleric base class has more options?

04-13-2013, 12:56 PM
What I find amusing about the "trees" for the divine is that the healing one gives bonus to light and healing while the defensive one gives universal spell power ..... wait defensive gives bonus to my blade barrier??????

Also the defensive one other than some HPs, I could not find a single reason to choose anything in that tree, could not even force my self to take stuff even though it would help BB.

04-13-2013, 01:14 PM
On second thought, the mods should just roll this thread into the main discussion thread. No need to have two of these.

04-13-2013, 01:17 PM
Chiming in, as I've played a bit more with Flav's build.

Well played more in fact means spending time resetting and redistributing the points... once again, and writing 5 Bug reports ( that last bit took some time, bugs 1382 to 1386 ).

- First in itself the Healing tree is not that bad.
If you forget about the cost of getting RSII ( 42 Points in that tree only ).

- Second the Protection tree, as said by Kalari has no use ( except for the 3 toughness you cna get from it )

That being said, to be constructive, here are what I'm suggesting as changes :

- Try to find a way to reduce the cost of getting RSII to 25/30ish. ( so reduce the cost of the whole tree, there's enough options costing 2AP to be able to do that ) Or find a way to make points from the other tree count towards the points needed in a given tree. ( full points for the racial tree, 1/2 or 1/3 points for the other trees )
Make it possible to reach Capstone in two Trees if you stay pure. Right now if you go Radiant Servant you can't have Divine Intervention ( you miss 4 points at least ), but all the pure clerics right now can have both.

- Give us more trees. Each and every profession should have at least 4 trees available, so that one player can chose 3 trees out of 4 ( when single class ) or 3 trees out of 8/12 when multiclassing
For the Clerics, after getting rid of the useless Protection Tree that means creating at least one Warpriest Tree ( melee offensive oriented ) and one Divine Caster Tree ( Spell Oriented )... Revamping the Protection Tree into a Divine Protector Tree ( Melee Defensive oriented ) by dropping all the "buff other" stuff and concentrating on Self buff would do well as the last tree.

- Find a way to give us back all our critical enhancement lines. ( they would fit well in the Divine Caster Tree )

- Find a way to give us back the full Stat Lines ( +3 in Wis +2 in Cha, not counting Racial Stats ) as Tier 1 or 2, right now at best you can only reach +4 if you are willing to waste the points to develop trees to get them. ( on live you can get the first two ( 1 Cha and 1 Wis ) really early, and the other are only a matter of having enough points... not having to waste 20 points in a tree you don't want.

- Oh and when we have 4 tier actually, keep them. ( puny things like Extra Turning for example, that has only x/3 in the tree when we can take it 4 times... it's not the only one. )

As things are right now Clerics are once again left to rot in a corner, and they get cornered even more by having only one choice : being healbots.

04-13-2013, 01:39 PM
Do you mean as good as AM or PM at DC-casting as well as the inherent advantages of the cleric class, or overall as powerful as AM and PM in general, taking into account that the cleric base class has more options?

The classes have differences: Wizard gets tons of bonus feats, and a more diverse spell list, and should get a familiar. Cleric has more HP, and Turn Undead, and should have domains.

But I don't know of any reason for a DC-specced Cleric not to reach the same DCs as a DC-specced Wizard, nor do I think it would be unbalanced. It would have severe trade-offs: the feat cost alone hurts a Cleric far more, because of the Wizard's bonus feats. There's no reason Wizard enhancements (and Epic Destinies) need to push them way ahead of a Cleric.

Your use of "inherent advantages" makes me think you view Clerics as somehow automatically better than Wizards unless Wizard enhancements give them much better DCs. If that's your view, I don't agree.

04-13-2013, 02:02 PM
Also also - give clerics back their spell pen lines. Removing it is a huge nerf to several spells.

04-13-2013, 02:16 PM
Would be cool if you add your feedback to this thread too:


04-13-2013, 02:46 PM
Your use of "inherent advantages" makes me think you view Clerics as somehow automatically better than Wizards unless Wizard enhancements give them much better DCs. If that's your view, I don't agree.
The extra feats and more offensive spells, I viewed as part of the "offensive caster" package of the current wizard, along with the SLA and enhancements etc.
Outside of the offensive casting role, the Cleric has more HP, better weapon and armour proficiencies, better Attack progression, access to healing spells, turn undead etc.
These are what I meant as the inherent advantages of the cleric class. Wizards only do offensive casting. Clerics can do a lot more besides. If a cleric can match a wizard in their chosen field of specialisation, plus retaining their other advantages, why bother with a wizard who can only do offensive casting.
Specialist vs Generalist, Pure vs Hybrid.
Hence why I was asking for clarification.

04-13-2013, 03:25 PM
im seeing some great posts, im gonna be home in a bit (posting from a tablet takes getting used to)

ill be on lama working on my cleric tonight I fully intend to give proper feedback by testing out each available tree and will log damage/ heals vs my live version

as I stated earlier spell pen is something I think they sorely missed the mark on not including it in the class domains and its very costly to utilize it in the elven path, I would forgo heavy armor and martial weapons on this build to cast better, id love a mystic thuerge style path (sort of like that chick in the weapons shipment)

while those who wish to do damage with weapons and keep their armor get better options in the protection path a few second physical resistance buff that you can cast on others is not a step in the right direction in my opinion.

And agreed about the smiting lines I keep my radiance clickes just to get those sweet DP ticks, I really hate to see such a great damage spell be neutered.

04-13-2013, 05:35 PM
Do you mean as good as AM or PM at DC-casting as well as the inherent advantages of the cleric class, or overall as powerful as AM and PM in general, taking into account that the cleric base class has more options?

Last time I played my cleric(with 1 wiz and 1 monk splash) a few days ago it was in eh tor. We didnt have an arcane in the group so someone said we had to be careful as we dont range damage/instant kills. So I cast destruction and slay living on fire giants with my 46 necro skill and epic spell pen and spell pen enhancements. They were suprised, but I built my char to be that way. Yes it worked about 70-80% of the time, not as effective as a pm, but I dont expect to be that. In ee I know I cant effectively be offesnsive. For the dragons in eh tor I adapted my role to nothing but a nannybot which I had no probs with, though most end fights Im able to cast a few light spells to charge up Divine Wrath.

What I dont want to lose is my ability to be offensive when in group that requires almost no healing/protection. I could pike, but whats the fun in that.

04-13-2013, 08:52 PM
Because I felt it was needed, I decided to take my time and analyze the Cleric's domains in-detail. I feel that, while one of the concerns of the Cleric is entirely valid (there's no melee or offensive caster option, a terrible slight), analyzing what we already have and work out with it might be effective. Just saying "drop these domains and get over with all this" won't help, because Turbine is dead set on its exchange. I feel that, the way it's now, the War domain (the hypothetical melee domain tree) and the Alignment domain (which would collapse the Chaos, Evil, Good and Law domains and would work as half of the offensive caster tree) could exist in unison, or even replace one of the trees that currently exist.

My basis blends a bit of my experiences in DDO and on tabletop. I try not to contaminate the analysis with tabletop data, and I mostly focus on how the tree works compared to what we have now, in most cases. Whatever is brand new is treated on its own.

I'll start with the Healing domain. For that, I'll use EllisDee's tabulated information, treating each ability separately. Warning: this is a long read, and you may want to skip down further below for the overall opinion on the matter:

Mastering the entire Healing Domain requires about 87-89 AP. That means you could focus on all the abilities the Healing Domain tree can offer, if you want to. Only a single ability (the auto-grant ability Healing Domain) requires spending so many AP, so for all means, spending more than indicated below is a waste of time.

Core Abilities

Getting all Core abilities requires level 20 and spending 10 AP. As a rule of thumb, I'd like Core Abilities to cost no AP whatsoever, particularly as they're built.

Healing Domain
For each action point spent in this tree, you gain 1 Light Spell Power and 1.5 Positive Energy Spell Power.

As you can spend all 80 points in the Healing Domain tree, that means you can get a maximum of 80 Light and 120 Positive Energy spellpower. This ability costs nothing (technically 1 AP because you need to spend that in a single ability of any tree, as it's an auto-gained ability.

Now: as you know, Heal now offers PE spellpower, and there's a new skill, Spellcraft, that grants the same to all others (save PE/Negative Energy, Repair/Rust and Sonic spells). Thus, you can STILL have PE (which includes most forms of Healing) spellpower without spending a point in the Healing Domain; in fact, since it's based on the skill modifier and not the skill ranks per se, that means your Wisdom and a Heal item can grant you spellpower, alongside the actual abilities that grant Spellpower. This is important to note, because a Heal skill modifier of 20 grants the same effect as Cleric Life Magic I, and a Spellcraft skill modifier of 20 grants the same effect as Cleric Smiting I. Every 20 points in Heal or Spellcraft grant the same effect as the next tier of Cleric Life Magic/Cleric Smiting.

That said: if you were to duplicate the benefits of Cleric Life Magic (the one that applies for purposes of the Healing domain), you need to spend roughly 13-14 AP per tier to gain the same effect (14 x 1.5 = 21, which is 1 point higher than the spellpower provided through CLM), and a total of 54 AP (53 x 1.5 = 81) to get the full benefit of CLM IV, something you could get through a measle spending of 10 AP.

Thus, to gain the same amount of PE spellpower for purposes of duplicating the old CLM lines, you need to play with both AP and Heal. By definition, PE spellpower (and by definition, Negative Energy spellpower) will get a solid boost, even if you don't spend that many ranks in the Healing domain tree.

So, with all that said and done: is it a worthwhile replacement to Cleric Life Magic? All I can say is "don't look a gift-horse in the mouth", but you'll have to depend on the Heal skill a bit more. But, enhancement-based healing definitely took a dump for the worst. Perhaps if it were Light = 2xAP and Healing = 3xAP, perhaps it'd be worthwhile, but as it stands, anyone will definitely need a massive Heal modifier to make ends meet (nearly a +60).

Toggle: You gain 25 Positive Energy Spell Power and 3% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance, but have -50 Spell Power and cannot critically hit with other spell damage types, and deal -1[W] damage.

This is the skill that has everyone's pants in a hurry, and for good measure: the benefits you get compare way too little to what you'd gain from spending 4 AP on Cleric Life Magic and Cleric Prayer of Life, because that's exactly what it is. It's a bit of a relief that the ability is a toggle, but I believe no one in their sane judgment would use it, even as an emergency.

To clarify: you're taking half of the benefit of CleriC Life Magic I (the PE spellpower bit), plus half the benefit of Cleric Prayer of Life (3% to PE spells), which by itself might warrant 2 AP, then make it a toggle-able ability because of the punishments, which are harsher than they look: while you get a +25% bonus to your healing, your spellcasting takes a dump to half of its usual benefit (or nullifies the benefits of Spellcraft and the very benefit gained through the Healing domain auto-grant ability) and you deal less damage through your weapons (in case, you know, someone's gotten into melee range...).

Devs, in the wise words of our friends the Crystal Cove kobolds... "Really? [I]REALLY[I/]!?"

This ability isn't worth the 2 AP it costs, and isn't worth the 0 AP it'd cost for being an auto-granted ability. Shave or shelve the penalty, and maybe we can talk.

Positive Energy Burst
You gain +1% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance. Channel Divinity: A wave of positive energy that expands from the caster, healing 1d8 plus 1 per Cleric level to all nearby allies, as well as removing 1d4 negative levels and 1d6 points of ability damage. Undead are instead damaged by the energy, taking 1d8 points of damage per Cleric level - a successful Will save reduces the damage by half.

For some reason, I can't help but see this class feature as a tree ability instead of a non-Core ability. It's treated as a PE spell, so it gets the Spellpower bonus, the spell Critical chance, and anything that depends on "when you heal allies" (such as...some of the Protection Domain class features, perhaps?). However, to get it, you need the Pacifism ability, which as we've stated is not the best ability around. Maybe as a Tier 2 tree ability it might work. I mean: as a free auto-grant ability, it might be formidable, but it'd be unfair from the other side (as in, compared to everything else in virtually all other trees, this kind of ability makes the others lackluster: either you boost ALL other features in ALL other trees to fit PEB, or you nerf PEB, and we don't want any of that). That said, it has a fair AP cost...if it were a tree-based ability. As a slight question: if PEB is a quasi-autogrant ability, why not Positive Energy Aura?

Improved Empower Healing
You gain +1% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance. The Empower Healing Spell metamagic now grants +100 Positive Energy Spell Power instead of +75

This is another ability that should be auto-grant. If you have enough levels in Cleric (12), might as well get an actually [I]Improved Empower Healing spell for free, not having to spend 2 AP for it. The benefit it provides (+25 spellpower when toggling the metamagic feat) doesn't really cut the 2 AP cost, period.

Positive Energy Shield
You gain +1% Positive Energy Spell Critical Chance. Channel Divinity: Your living ally receives temporary hit points equal to your Heal skill. While these hit points remain, your target receives +10% Sacred bonus to healing they receive from positive energy.

By the time you receive this (18th level), you have at least 21 ranks in Heal, a Wisdom minimum of...say, 24 (or higher; a 30 is probably well expected) and a Heal skill item of +15. That means you have, at a very least, a +44 to your Heal skill.

Thus, you grant 44 temp. HP to all alli...let's correct that, to a SINGLE ALLY, plus a meager boost to healing...for one use of Turn Undead. And that comes AFTER having Positive Energy Burst for 12 levels, which affects EVERYBODY with range of the burst.

*Insert complaining Kobold*

This isn't worth even the auto-grant slot it offers. Even if the amount of temp. HP you grant is worthwhile (more than Divine Power, Mass Aid or the Paladin's Virtue spell), without sufficient damage mitigation, it won't last for more than one attack (potentially two attacks). Meanwhile, you have to wait 2 minutes (IF you take Endless Turning, of course) to recover that slot you've expended. And, if you lose the temp. HP, you LOSE the bonus to Healing as well. Seriously, not even the 4e developers (of which I feel a strong vibe from; I mean, "Channel Divinity"!?!?!?!) could have made such a sucky ability. Or...maybe they do.

Radiant Servant
You gain +2 Wisdom. Every fifth positive energy spell you cast deals maximum healing and has +50% chance to critical.

Finally, we reach the capstone, and...it doesn't really feel like a capstone. Anyone with Maximize Spell already got this ages ago, even if it has to spend some SP to activate it. The only fun thing is the 50% chance to pull off a critical, but that means you'll have to do some bookkeeping with your healing ("darn, I used 2 PE Bursts and 2 Mass Heals; must wait until everybody is about to die in order to release this uber-burst!") while at it. Definitely it's not capstone material, and much less worth the 2 AP it costs.

Overall for Core abilities: Aside from the first auto-grant ability and Positive Energy Burst, they feel ham-fistead. Pacifism isn't worth it at all, Improved Empower Healing is fine but the cost kills it, PES should be called PoS ;), and the capstone isn't a real capstone. I know everyone will just stop at PEB instead of choosing to progress any further. The +2 to Wisdom won't really cut it.

Healing Domain: Tier 1

Mastering Tier 1 of the Healing domain takes 21 AP. You require 5 AP to reach next Tier.

Extra Turning
+1/2/3 Turn Undead per rest.

Compared to the original version, it's actually an improvement. You won't ever get Extra Turning IV, but costs were halved. It's actually okay, but not something inspiring...

Wand Mastery
+25/50/75% effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/2/3 to the save DCs of your offensive wands.

This ability, on the other hand, sees some decent improvement. VERY decent improvement, IMO: not only do you get better returns in Rank 2 and 3, you ALSO get boosted DC, AND their costs are 1 AP per rank. This is surprisingly good...if wands were worthwhile offensive weapons. As it stands, 3 AP for an effective 75 spellpower to wands of CLW/CMW/CSW is a fair trade, and early on, that +1 to the DC of all wand-able spells. Oh, and 250 HP Heal scrolls.

Divine Cleansing
Channel Divinity: Removes harmful effects from your target. Leaves a lingering immunity to natural and magical diseases and poisons for 12 seconds per Cleric level.
Rank 1: Removes all Disease and Poison effects.
Rank 2: Removes all Blindness, Curse, Disease and Poison effects.
Rank 3: Removes all Blindness, Curse, Disease, Paralysis, Petrification and Poison effects.

I'm...ambivalent towards this ability. Personally, I never took it: however, as it stands, it has seen some improvements. The Rank 3 version covers pretty much all the nasty status effects anyone could suffer, all for the cost of 1 use of Turn Undead, and before Panacea or Heal come online. It also costs 1 AP per rank, which is fair.

On the other hand, I'm saddened by the loss of the Fortitude bonus. Even if it was for 30 seconds, it provided benefits against spells such as Wail of the Banshee, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, and many other such vile spells cast upon you (unless you have Death Ward, but if you're on an Antimagic Field, might as well keep this benefit, no?). Personally, if it were to remain as is, WITH THE CLEAR EXCEPTION of replacing the immunities for the bonus to Fortitude saves (and keep it at +4/+6/+8), it would be a really good ability to have. As it stands...it's good filler, mostly.

When you use a Turn Attempt for any reason, you gain 3/4/5 Temporary Hit Points for each Healing Core Ability you possess.

You have six Core abilities, and of those, only two are really worth it (but you must take one worthless ability to qualify for the hidden gold nugget amongst all the pile of manure). That means you get between 9 to 15 temp. HP each time you use a Turn Undead, for any reason (which is turning undead or "channeling divinity"; by the gods, why do they have to use 4e terms!?!?).

Early on, it *might* work, but later on, you want temp. HP to matter. A Life Shield item grants more temp. HP, so this ability is worthless. It's also costly. Now, if it granted temp. HP to all allies benefitting from Channel Divinity (such as those who are benefitting from PEB or PEA), it might be a worthwhile investment. Also: it's horribly costly. I mean, it's not worth even 1 AP, why make it cost up to 6 AP!?

+1/2/3 Concentration, Diplomacy and Heal.

So, this is mostly Imp. Concentration, Imp. Diplomacy and Imp. Heal collapsed into a single ability, costing 1 AP per rank. Of all three, only the bonus to Heal might be worthwhile, and not by that much (technically, you get 2.5 points of PE/NE spellpower for every point you spend in here). Concentration isn't so hard to work with (a decent Constitution score + a Concentration skill item, or...Quicken Spell), and Diplomacy has its uses but it's not a very used skill, so you're spending 1 AP to get 1 point on a skill you might need. Again: not very useful at all.

Overall for Tier 1 abilities: The first abilities incline towards being bad, but at least half of them are really worthwhile. If, say, Bliss was turned into a Core ability autogrant and another feature was placed here, Divine Cleansing had its immunities replaced by a hefty Fortitude save bonus, and Altruism granted a significant boost to Heal checks, perhaps this Tier would be very good for everyone, even someone only dipping Cleric. You could save about 6-9 AP from this tree, requiring only 12 AP to master.

Healing Domain: Tier 2

Mastering Tier 2 of the Healing domain takes 20 AP. You require 5 AP to reach next Tier, as you already have 5 points from the earlier Tier.

Improved Turning
You count as 1/2/3 level(s) higher when turning undead, and add 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice turned.
Requires: Extra Turning of same rank

As I mentioned before, Extra Turning has a fair AP cost, and Improved Turning got a serious improvement. While you no longer have a Rank IV version, what you get is really good: just rank 1 grants a +1 bonus to your effective Cleric level when using Turn Undead, and the damage increases by 2d6 HD. That last bit is the real bonus: just by having Rank 1 in this ability, your turning check will be (Cleric Level + Cha Modifier +1) and your turning damage will be (4d6 + Cleric Level + Cha modifier +1)

Mighty Turning
Undead that you successfully turn are instead destroyed.
Requires: Improved Turning 1

Not only do you require a vertical requirement (Extra Turning 1), you also need an horizontal requirement (Imp. Turning 1) to get this ability. However, what it provides is obviously good: all undead are destroyed. This ability could easily be an auto-grant, but the AP cost is fair.

Purge Dark Magics
Channel Divinity: Dispels 1/2/3 hostile magical effect(s) from your target.
Requires: Divine Cleansing of same rank

I'm also ambivalent about this ability, but I incline towards "it sucks". Basically, you have a targeted Dispel Magic effect that costs 2 AP per rank and requires one use of your still-limited uses of Turn Undead. If it can be used against an enemy. it could be acquired later and be a decent offensive maneuver, but if it's limited to allies only...might as well deploy Dispel Magic. Or Break Enchantment, which is the spell you actually want to use in that regard. Because of this, it's a bad ability.

The ambivalence? I'm not sure if it can be used against an enemy, so this is mostly a supposition based on all possible outcomes.

Channel Divinity
Choose one of the following:
- Divine Healing: Your target heals 1/2/4d4 hp every 2 seconds for 2 seconds per point of Heal skill you possess.
- Divine Vitality: Your target ally gains 3/5/7d4+10 spellpoints. This ability cannot target yourself.

This ability is quite good. It limits you to one kind of channeling, but both are good.

Divine Healing is, in all ranks, more effective than the Vigor spell. Of course, the Vigor line benefits from PE spellpower, so it might end up being stronger. Divine Healing, however, heals for more, and without SP expenditure. In short words: you're turning uses of Turn Undead for free Vigor spells.

However, I ask of you: why get Divine Healing when you can get Divine Vitality? Personally, I always choose Divine Vitality, because while it doesn't work for me, it works for someone else. If there's a Wizard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul or Druid in the party, that means they can use that extra SP to use another spell, and that might mean another Niac's Biting Cold, Eladar's Electric Surge or Divine Punishment, which has massively good returns. In essence: you effectively turn TU into a DoT.

The only thing that ruins this choice is that you can't use it on yourself. However, it's one heck of an ability, no matter what you choose.

Efficient Empower Healing
Healing spells cast while the Empower Healing Spell feat is activated cost 1/2/4 fewer spell point(s).

Compared to, say, the existing Improved Empower Healing Spell, it's less expensive (6 AP maximum instead of 12 AP), so it's a clear boon. On the other hand, it's still a wee bit expensive. Something along the lines of 2/1/1 might be fair game.

Overall for Tier 2 abilities: This tier is somewhat better than the earlier one. Mighty Turning could easily be an auto-grant ability. Other than that, just between the Channel Divinity ability you'll have enough AP spent for Tier 3 abilities.

Healing Domain: Tier 3

Mastering Tier 2 of the Healing domain takes 16 AP. You require 10 AP to reach next Tier, as you already have 10 points from the earlier Tiers.

Intense Healing
Your Positive Energy Spells are cast at +1/2/3 caster level.

This...is horribly insulting. Really, really horrible, and not funny at all. You need to spend 2 AP to get the benefit you gain from the Healing domain on the tabletop version!?!?!? This should have been an autogrant, period. Not even reducing cost to 1 AP really makes it worthwhile. This isn't worth being a Tier 3 ability at all.

Unyielding Sovereignty
Activate: Fully heals all hit point damage done to a targeted ally, removes ability damage, death penalty effects, negative levels, the conditions blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned.

Haven't used it, but I presume it still has the 5-minute cooldown. That said: it's a very useful ability, and it has the same cost. It's largely unchanged from the base version. It hurts a bit that Unyielding Sovereignity is separate from the Sovereign Host benefits, but it hurts more that Undying Call no longer exists. Heck...why not add Undying Call as well?

Toggle: When you are killed, four turn attempts are expended. All nearby living allies and enemy undead receive 250/500/1000 positive energy healing and are affected by your Divine Cleansing ability if you possess it. This healing effect is unaffected by Spell Power. (This ability has no effect if you have insufficient turn attempts when you die.) This ability toggles off on death.
Requires: Divine Healing/Vitality of same rank

Umm...it's a cool move, but here's the deal: if the Cleric dies, you're probably screwed. You don't have to be a healbot to consider yourself screwed if you die: if an offensive casting tree was added, your allies would lose a lot of power. A Cleric shouldn't be dying, and this isn't an incentive for your character to die. This would be awesome...on a Paladin (and quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of the DoS tree), but not on a Cleric. Just...no.

Ability Point
Select one of the following:
- Wisdom +1
- Charisma +1

By the time you get your first enhancement-granted ability point, it comes a bit too late. It costs just about the same, so no biggie here.

Overall for Tier 3 abilities: Unyielding Sovereignity is still great, but the remaining abilities are uninspiring. I mean, just have the Channel Divinity option from Tier 2 also apply to Tier 3, but to the ability you didn't choose (much like AA for Ranger/Elf), and you could save it. As of late, you'll have to fill with Tier 1 or Tier 2 abilities, which isn't really good. You'd have mostly 4 points in-between Unyielding Sovereignity and the Ability Point, which speaks a lot on how this Tier has to be buffed.

Healing Domain: Tier 4

Mastering Tier 3 of the Healing domain takes 16 AP. You require 20 AP to reach the final Tier, as you already have 20 points from the earlier Tiers. Note that, with how bland Tier 3 is, you'll have to fill quite a bit in order to reach the final Tier abilities.

Endless Turning
Turn Undead uses regenerate at a base of one every 2 minutes, or 10% faster per rank if it already regenerates.
Requires: Improved Turning of same rank

So...the ability you pretty much gained for free at 6th level with Radiant Servant is now available to just about anyone, for 2 AP, by expending 20 AP in the Healing tree. It's good that everyone has access to regenerating TU now (particularly Paladins), but it's too restrictive. If it were a Tier 3 ability, it'd be awesome. Considering that it requires a Tier 2 ability to access, it's really meant to be a Tier 3 ability, period. The remaining ranks aren't really noteworthy: it takes 120 seconds at base, so Rank 2 requires only 1 minute 48 seconds, and Rank 3 requires 1 minute 36 seconds. That's roughly half a minute worth of wait between regenerations.

Personally? I'd make Endless Turning an auto-grant, and this option merely makes that regeneration faster. It also fits as a Tier 3 ability (the second ability that does so; this is worrisome). AP-wise, though...regenerating TU is pretty much priceless, so I feel nothing about reducing or augmenting its cost.

Incredible Healing
The maximum caster level of your Positive Energy Spells are increased by 1/2/3.
Requires: Intense Healing of same rank

Yet another ability that could have its level decreased. It also requires Intense Healing, which is just...yuck-worthy at the level it is. However, the benefit is really good: this means Heal is no longer limited to CL 15, and if taken all, Mass Heal will reach a CL maximum of 28, which is really incredible healing (without mentioning the 200% - 300% boost from 80 points in the Healing domain tree, plus any other boosts to PE spellpower such as Blessing and the Heal skill). However, I'd definitely place it...you guessed right, at Tier 3.

3 out of 3 abilities that are exaggerated in rank. This pattern sucks.

Divine Health
You are immune to natural, magical, and supernatural diseases.

2 AP to get an ability you could get almost for FREE by dipping 3 Paladin levels? Are you serious, devs? Wow... Now, for once, the developers actually looked at Complete Divine, because the Prestige Class from which the old PrE (and from which this tree is based) actually grants Divine Health at 2nd level. Considering a 6th level Cleric could get in, that means you can access this ability at 8th level. But...let's face it: between Proof against Disease and a massive Fort save, do you really intend to get this ability?

Ability Point
Select one of the following:
- Wisdom +1
- Charisma +1

Just about the one ability I might get. It's cheaper than the old version, but I miss Cleric Wisdom III and Cleric Charisma III already. And, since you're limited in how many points you can gain through class levels...

Overall for Tier 4 abilities: Endless Turning and Incredible Healing are certain must-haves, and between those and Ability Point you might get 10 points worth of abilities. However, as you can see, three out of the five abilities you get from the tree are really better off in a lower Tier, and one is just so needless that spending points in it is a waste. That really leaves 2 points, so in order to get to the final Tier, you need to get filler abilities. This is absolutely horrible, and bad design.

Healing Domain: Tier 5

Mastering Tier 5 requires only a meager 6 points.

The most effective way to get 40 points for this seems to be 2 points in Pacifism (filler), 2 points in PEB, 1-3 points in Extra Turning, 1-3 points in Wand Mastery, 2-6 points in Divine Cleansing, 1-3 points in Improved Turning, 2 points in Mighty Turning, 2-6 points in either Divine Health or Divine Vitality, 2-6 points in Efficient Empower Healing, 2 points in Unyielding Sovereignity, 4 points in Ability Scores, 2-6 points in Endless Turning and 2-6 points in Incredible Healing.

Going with all minimums from the list provided, you'd have a minimum of 26 points to qualify, and you need to choose 1 extra point from the Tier 1 abilities to reach the first threshold (5 points). That means you have to fill with 14 AP in order to reach Tier 5 abilities. Going with all maximums nets you 51, so you can drop 11 AP in order to fulfill the 40-point range. You won't fill a lot from Tier 3, so your main sources of AP spent will be Tiers 1 and 3.

Positive Energy Aura
Channel Divinity: A positive energy aura envelopes you in an aura of healing, positive energy, and affects a number of targets equal to Cleric level. Allies within the aura are healed 1 hit point per 3 Cleric levels as long as they remain within it. Undead enemies are damaged for the same amount.

The ability that all Radiant Servants, and indeed, all Clerics are looking for. Which is somewhat surprising: Positive Energy Burst is gated as a Core ability, but Positive Energy Aura is a tree ability. Notice how, as a Tier 5 tree ability, it supports the idea that Positive Energy Burst could exist as a tree ability, perhaps as a Tier 2 ability. Definitely it's almost inaccessible, and you need to spend a lot of AP to get something everyone pretty much depends upon. It should have been a Tier 3-4 ability, and considering Tier 3 would be too crowded, a nice Tier 4 would be fair game.

Cure Focus
Your Cure Wounds spells have no maximum caster level.

Actually, for a healer, this is a pretty decent ability. As a Tier 5 ability, however, it's weak. It could easily be a Tier 3 ability, because by the time you might have Cure Focus, you're already using Heal, which is mondo efficient (and more with Incredible Healing); note that, with Cure Focus, you've just made Incredible Healing worthless for all Cure Wounds spells. At least Incredible Healing affects all Positive Energy spells, which should include...oh wait, nevermind: more than half of the positive energy spells are Cure Wounds spells!! And it's too late to, say, make Vigor worthwhile with them, so...

Reactive Heal
Channel Divinity: The next time your target falls below half hit points, they receive 250 positive energy healing. A target can only benefit from a Reactive Heal once every 3 minutes (reset by resting). This healing effect is unaffected by spell power.
Requires: Martyrdom rank 1

Actually, it's a pretty nice "pact" effect, but it's nothing really surprising. It saves you from the droll of looking at people's red bars, which should allow you to cast Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier...which are weaker now, because you don't have the sufficient spellpower to boost them. Funny, no? So: it's nice, it's cheap for 2 AP, but it's woefully late.

Overall for Tier 5 abilities: Evidently, the Tier 5 abilities are better than the Tier 4 abilities. However, if looked in the perspective of where they'd fit, Tier 5 abilities are really weak. They'd be better if they were Tier 4 abilities, because their position would make a lot of sense. Spending 40 AP to get Positive Energy Aura feels wrong, really wrong. It should be cheaper, and the Tier 5 abilities should be something spectacular.

Overall for Healing Domain: Compared to a Healbot as of now, the Healing Domain wins a bit more than what it loses. You lose the awesome Prayer of Incredible Life, and your spell critical chance is limited to 6% IF you choose Pacifism and other Core abilities. After Positive Energy Burst, the rest of the Core abilities are deplorable. On the other hand, the combination of Healing Domain and Heal skill should allow anyone to get decent base healing (as you'd get roughly 80 PE/NE spellpower if you go for Positive Energy Aura with all maximums), and some anti-undead abilities were boosted (Improved Turning makes using Turn Undead actually better!)

I'd personally get rid/trade places of:
Pacifism. Just who the heck thought this was a good idea!? I'll use this argument: if I can contribute to the total damage dealt to the enemy, I can kill the enemy faster. If I kill the enemy faster, I don't have to heal as much. If I don't have to heal as much, I save SP, work faster, and become more effective. Tell me how Pacifism works towards that idea. Of course, it doesn't; it's the opposite, making you a better healer but hindering your damage potential, thus making you weaker overall.
Positive Energy Shield. Perhaps it it worked as an area buff and placed on the tree, it might be useful, but as it stands, it doesn't cut even being granted as a Core auto-grant.
Radiant Servant. It's terrible as a capstone, even with the 50% chance of Critical hits, because you get the same with Maximize Spell and 25 extra spellpoints. The Critical chance...well, if you already have decent spellpower, the Critical might be an overkill, so you'd be wasting healing potential. It just cries of nannying, which is bad.
Bliss. Ugh, what a terrible ability. if PES/PoS was an area ability, Bliss would make no sense at all. *Maaaaybe* if it was reworked so that it worked towards a target currently benefitting from any Channel Divinity effect that is also an ally, and it depended on something else (say, AP spent + Heal skill modifier?), it might be worthwhile. As it stands, it's not even worth the time reading it.
Altruism. Unless it's Intimidate, UMD or Concentration (for Monks, that is), all skill-boosting abilities are a waste of AP. Sure: now Heal is more useful, but a +3 bonus to Heal for 3 AP is demeaning.
Intense Healing. Good grief: why it can't be an autogrant if you're a higher-level Cleric with more points in the Healing Tree? I mean, if you spent points to become a Radiant Servant, you got them essentially for free (sure, you spent about 6 AP for it, but you also gained more benefits alongside that, so the shared worth really made it useful), but spending points for it, and 2 AP per rank? That's insulting!
Martyrdom. I'd see this as a Paladin ability, but definitely NOT as a Cleric ability. Let the Paladin die; you restore his life later on. But as a Cleric? You're a valuable resource, and not just for the "hjeals".
Divine Health. It's too late, and a Paladin grants me that already. I also have ways to become immune to virtually all diseases, and let's face it: diseases are nothing else but a nuisance. Do I really want to waste 2 AP on them?

Abilities that are really good, but I'd lower a Tier:
Endless Turning. I get that ability pretty much for free (as part of the Radiant Servant packet) currently on Live. Why do I have to spend 2 AP to get this? I find it's great for non-RS (and in fact, if the Enhancement pass was really completing Warpriest and Exorcist of the Silver Flame, I would have also requested Endless Turning for them because it's just THAT GOOD!), but at the level it is, it's too prohibitive. Tier 3 ability nails it perfectly.
Incredible Healing. See: Endless Turning, except for the third sentence.
Positive Energy Aura. The holy grail of all Clerics...now too expensive to get. As Tier 4, it's awesome and a fair investment: as Tier 5, it's just too much.

Abilities with reduced cost
Divine Cleansing: Originally it was too expensive for its AP cost; now, it's somewhat better, but too expensive for my tastes. 1 AP/rank or 2/1/1 would make it decent.
Purge Dark Magics: if it works against enemies, I'd reduce it to 1 AP per rank to make it more attractive.

Abilities I would add:
A 2 AP Tier 2/3 ability that allows you to be considered a target for certain Channel Divinity features (Divine Cleansing, Divine Health, Divine vitality, PES if it were a tree-based ability).
A 2 AP/rank Tier 4/5 ability that allows you to spend TU to automatically resurrect an individual. Since it would be a Channel Divinity ability, and treated as a Healing spell, it would mesh well with both domain abilities.
Have certain abilities (Intense Healing, Incredible Healing) work with Negative Energy spells. That'd make Inflict Wounds spells and Harm effective combat options.
More support for Light spells. As it stands, Healing Domain is the only ability that makes Light spells worthwhile. Note that this includes Searing Light, Sunburst, and most importantly, the super-DoT Divine Punishment. Remember a Radiant Servant boosts Light spells as well, so you could make the equivalent of Intense/Incredible Healing for Light spells (Intense/Incredible Radiance?). That's just from reading the Complete Divine, mind you.

I'll see if I can do the Protector/Protection Domain tree later on. This took me quite a while to analyze, but it should be good food for thought.

UPDATE (4/19/13): With the new week and the changes to Enhancement costs, a few things change here. Mostly, the recommendation for how to reach Tier 5 based on useful abilities got better.

The most effective way to get 30 points for this seems to be 2 points in Pacifism (filler), 2 points in PEB, 1-3 points in Extra Turning, 1-3 points in Wand Mastery, 2-6 points in Divine Cleansing, 1-3 points in Improved Turning, 2 points in Mighty Turning, 2-6 points in either Divine Health or Divine Vitality, 2-6 points in Efficient Empower Healing, 2 points in Unyielding Sovereignity, 4 points in Ability Scores, 2-6 points in Endless Turning and 2-6 points in Incredible Healing.

Going with all minimums from the list provided, you'd have a minimum of 26 points to qualify, and you need to choose 1 extra point from the Tier 1 abilities to reach the first threshold (5 points). That means you have to fill with 4 AP in order to reach Tier 5 abilities. Going with all maximums nets you 51, so you can drop 21 AP in order to fulfill the 30-point range.

04-13-2013, 10:50 PM
Very nice Tgoskar this is the kind of feedback the devs need to see as well.

I really hope they put Undying court back in, many of my divine builds (since I am an elf lover) center around this path.

This is really incredible feedback here I am just trying to take screenshots of damage you broke it down in an incredible way I can only hope the powers that be read through what you wrote because its really good.

04-18-2013, 12:53 AM
I promised I'd give my opinion on the Protection domain, and even if done late, here it is. I hope that, even if late, it swings the devs' opinion for something of better taste.


Mastering the entire Healing Domain requires about 116-119 AP. That means you could focus on all the abilities the Protection Domain tree can offer, if you want to. Only a single ability (the auto-grant ability Protector) requires spending so many AP, so for all means, spending more than indicated below is a waste of time.

Core Abilities

Getting all Core abilities requires level 20 and spending 10 AP. As a rule of thumb, I'd like Core Abilities to cost no AP whatsoever, particularly as they're built.

You gain +2 AC for each Protection Core Ability you possess (including this one). +1 Universal Spell Power for each action point spent in this tree.

This is...bizarre. If you get all Core abilities, you get a whopping +12 to AC, but as you know, AC has diminishing returns. On the other hand, you get 1 point to Universal Spell Power.

Compared to the Healing Domain, this first ability is spectacularly good. Not only do you get a pretty hefty boost to AC (you have an AC of 22 just by means of Core abilities, without equipping armor or shields), and if you spend ALL your points on the Protection domain, you get a whopping 80 spellpower. This alone collapses Cleric Life Magic and Cleric Smiting into a single whole, and it ALSO grants a bonus to other spells, such as Flame Strike. Of course, you might not get ALL benefits of the Protection domain, but you also get Spellcraft.

For no cost, it's...quite a bargain.

For 20 seconds, you gain +20 Sacred bonus to PRR. (77 spell points to cast, 1 minute cooldown.)

I...see this, and I want to cry a bit. It's basically a PRR boost, compared to the true Sanctuary.

To compare: Sanctuary on tabletop forces anyone that attacks you succeed on a Will save or refuse to attack you. I would have placed this as the Pacifism benefit, with one drawback: the effect ends when you attack the enemy, but only against THAT specific enemy.

Since you'll be forced to attack the enemy one way or another (unless you want to be a healbot; rest assured, you don't), you get...a piddling boost to PRR. Well, you take around 1/10th of the damage you'd otherwise take, but 9/10ths of damage is just as bad as full damage, no?

What kills it, though? It requires 2 AP to acquire, and only lasts for 20 seconds: in effect, it's an action boost to PRR. it lasts for way too little time, and...for 77 SP. So it's not really an action boost, but you waste WAY TOO MUCH SP for the ability to reduce damage to a bare minimum of 10%.

Remind me why I want to take this again?

Enhanced Sanctuary
Sanctuary additionally grants +20 Sacred bonus to energy resistance against Fire, Cold, Electric and Acid damage.

So, by 2 extra AP, I get the equivalent to Resist Energy for four out of five energy types as per a 7th level caster...for 20 seconds. Again, for 77 SP. It's STILL not the best boost to have, though it *can* be a lifesaver.

Death Pact
The spell allows you to enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell, your constitution is decreased by two, and cannot be restored until you rest.

So yeah, for 2 AP, you get...a spell you can already cast.

There's two benefits to it, which might make it worthwhile. One, you get it three levels earlier; two, it frees up a spell slot.

Let's look at Death Pact, though. It's a self-boost, which reduces your Con by two (-1 HP/level, -1 Fort, -1 Concentration), but if you die, you get a free Raise Dead spell cast on yourself...which restores 10% of your maximum HP, and forces you to cast a Heal spell on yourself almost immediately. If you get some more damage, the effect no longer works. It can be a lifesaver at times, and a waste of time at others. I'd leave it to everyone's judgment to work it off.

So, you take this spell off your list of prepared spells, so you get one free slot to add... Well, between Holy Aura (a really awesome buff), Fire Storm (AoE damage spell), Mass Inflict Critical Wounds (another AoE damage spell), and definitely Mass Death Ward, plus the Mass Cure Critical Wounds spell you keep, that means you probably don't have the slot (or the need) to prepare Death Pact.

The verdict: if you don't like Death Pact, you'll find this a waste of AP. If you like Death Pact, you might like this ability.

Ultimate Sanctuary
Sanctuary additional grants +4 to saving throws.

So, for 6 AP, you get...20 PRR, a +20 bonus to resistance to 4 out of 5 Energy types, AND +4 bonus to saving throws...for 20 seconds. The buff suddenly turned great, but it doesn't cost 6 AP, considering its SP cost and its duration. Being the full extent of the Sanctuary ability, it's an ability with a lot of promise but that fails on its execution.

Ultimate Protector
Passive: +2 wisdom
Active: Divine Intervention: Ward your target against fatal damage. Hit point damage cannot lower a warded ally's hit point total below -9. When a warded ally is incapacitated, this effect heals the target after a few seconds for 10 to 39 hit points and then fade.

Basically, it's the capstone the Cleric arleady has, but with a nifty +2 to Wisdom. However, while this is a nice capstone, there's just a *slight* little problem...you get Death Pact 8 levels earlier. If Death Pact was applicable to allies, AND it had no Constitution modifier, you'd have a better ability than the capstone. However, compared to the Healing domain capstone, it's actually pretty nice.

Overall for Core Abilities: The first ability is AWESOME. However, it depends on the amount of AP you spend, and the amount of Core abilities you acquire. Considering just how...poor the remainder of the Core abilities are, it makes Death Pact and the capstone somewhat unattractive to spend points to. Spending 8-10 AP for droll abilities should make the capstone extremely attractive, but the weakness of them makes the capstone lack some luster. However, if you feel the capstone is worthwhile enough to spend 10 AP for, you get a whopping benefit from the 1st level ability.

Protector Domain: Tier 1

Mastering Tier 1 of the Protection domain takes 24 AP. You require 5 AP to reach next Tier.

Close Wounds
Positive energy heals wounds of your target or damages undead for 2 to 4 hit points plus an additional 1 for every caster level up to caster level 5. Cooldown 5/4/3 seconds.

Erm... I spend up to 6 AP to get a spell I can cast two levels later? Not only that, getting more points only reduces the cooldown? This is a waste of AP, considering that at 3rd level I can alternate Cure Light Wounds with Cure Moderate wounds. And it's on the PROTECTION domain? Remind me why a healing spell, which has its own domain, fits on this one?

A waste of AP, since I can do something better with the spells I get automatically.

+5/10/15 maximum hp.

This is a pretty awesome ability. For 3 AP, you get half the effect of the existing Toughness feature. Alongside the benefit to Heroic Durability, you can get roughly the same amount...for 3 AP, not 6 AP. This ability is, IMO, a must-have because it increases Cleric durability, whether you're a caster Cleric or a melee Cleric (or a healbot).

Shield Other
Target ally gains +5/10/15 Sacred bonus to PRR for number of seconds equal to 6 + heal skill. Cannot self-target.




...I want to find out who did this. Really.

HAVE YOU SEEN SHIELD OTHER IN TABLETOP!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?? !?!?!?!?!????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????!??! ?!?!?!?!?!?

To boot: the spell grants you and any ally a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to saving throws (only a +2 bonus), but this isn't the big thing. The one reason I've had hopes for this spell is that it allows you to take half the damage the target takes: so, if a character takes 400 points of damage, and you protected it with Shield Other, you took 200 points of damage. The damage is mitigated on the side of the target, so if the target has DR, PRR and energy resistance, that damage is lessened in both sides.

It's also a Paladin spell, and a formidable 2nd level Paladin spell to boot.

Here, it only grants a bonus to PRR, and only depending on your Heal skill bonus, or else it lasts only 6 seconds. And to get the better bonus, you need to waste 6 AP.

I refuse by all means to accept this ability as-is. There's no reason whatsoever to accept it, no matter how much PRR it offers. If I see that the developers want to add Shield Other, unless it's exactly the same (or better!) than the tabletop version, I will say it sucks. I refuse to acknowledge this enhancement by all means, no matter how good it is.

And if it were good...but only 15 PRR? Seriously?

Goodness gracious, this ability is bad and you should know it. You should feel absolutely and definitely ashamed for even thinking about it. There's only one thing I can feel for it:


Sacred Touch
When you heal allies (with positive energy damage spells) they gain +1/2/3 AC and +1/2/3 PRR for 12 seconds.

...I feel so bad for the earlier ability, it doesn't let me enjoy this cool ability. For 2 AP, any time you provide healing with Positive Energy spells (which includes Positive Energy Burst!), you provide a slight boost to AC and PRR for a short amount of time. This ability is great because it provides mitigation to enemies when you heal them: the more protection they have, the less damage they'll take, so your heals become more effective. With PEB, you can use it offensively, even! And that goes without mentioning that it also affects you, so it becomes an area buff at the very moment you gain PEB or the first Mass Cure X Wounds spell.

...And yet, I still can't feel well for it, because of the sheer horror of "Shield" Other.

+1/2/3 Listen, Search and Spot. +0/0/1 saves vs traps.

Erm...I'm not sure if I should be interested about it or not. The Cleric is not focused on finding traps, so this ability makes no sense. I'll admit: I looked at what this unlocks, and...it's better to describe it there. For 3 AP, I wonder why I should take this ability. There's little reason (or none) to take it, actually. Well...there's Find Traps, but it's not enough reasoning.

Overall for Tier 1: So, there's two good abilities, two pointless abilities, and an aberration against good sense and the value of customers worldwide. I want to say Tier 1 is good, but I simply can't, because Shield Other is shamefully bad. It's horrendous, and every time I try to think about a way to justify spending points on it, I die a little.

Protector Domain: Tier 2

Mastering Tier 2 of the Healing domain takes 26 AP. You require 5 AP to reach next Tier, as you already have 5 points from the earlier Tier.

An enemy is commanded to fall to the ground and lie prone. A successful Will save negates this effect. 4 spell points to cast, cooldown 10/8/6 seconds.

I still say that nothing's worse that that excuse of an ability I refuse to name anymore, except for perhaps one more reference. And yet...this ability comes real close. If I want to get Command, I might as well spend a slot for it at 1st level. Sure, it can be used to protect yourself or an ally from attacks, for about 6 seconds at least, and it's harder to resist (I expect), but it's simply not attractive. It's also gained LATER than the moment I first have access to, and it's way too expensive. It's pointless, as I already have this spell around.

Here's a thought: why not grant a different ability? You know, something a Cleric might need, but that doesn't get?

Energy Resistance
You gain +2/4/6 energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric and Fire damage.

So...you get a very good stacking bonus (AFAIK) to four out of five kinds of energy resistance, which is quite good. The cost? Not so much. Make it 1/rank or 2/1/1 and then we can talk.

Grant Energy Resistance
[Name redacted] additional grants +2/4/6 Sacred bonus to energy resistance against Acid, Cold, Electric and Fire damage.
Requires: [Name redacted] of same rank, Energy Resistance of same rank


This is a pretty decent ability, which allows you to grant energy resistance to allies, which stacks with existing energy resistance. It's pretty decent, though by high levels it's gonna be chump change.

However...it only serves as a boost for a pathetic ability that shouldn't exist. Not only that, to get the better benefit, you need to waste 12 AP, so in total, you waste 18 AP? Just...why do you torture us so, developers!?

Efficient Metamagic
Choose one of the following:
- Efficient Empower: Empower costs 2/4/6 fewer spell points.
- Efficient Enlarge: Enlarge costs 1/2/4 fewer spell points.
- Efficient Maximize: Maximize costs 3/6/9 fewer spell points.
- Efficient Quicken: Quicken costs 1/2/4 fewer spell points.


So yeah: you only get one of the following kinds of Efficient Metamagic, and it costs 2 AP per rank, but...just between Efficient Empower and Efficient Maximize, you get two awesome boosts. Wonderful for an offensive caster type, and if it were to apply to two different trees, it would be great. You also need only 5 AP in this tree, so it's cheap as well! It's also on the right path, so let's face it: there's hope in here.

Considering the only efficient metamagic path you get on Live is Improved Empower Healing Spell, it's one heck of a massive improvement.

+1 Listen, Search and Spot. +1 Saves vs Traps. You gain the Trapfinding feat, which allows you to search for and find high level traps as if you were a rogue. This does not automatically grant the ability to Disable these traps.
Requires: Awareness 1


Wait, for reals?

So: between Awareness 3 and Trapfinding, you get a +5 to Search and the ability to search for traps. Since you have Trapfinding, you also get access to Trapmaking, in case you want to use grenades. With Find Traps and cross-class Search, you get a pretty good boost to Search.

It sounds like a nice ability, right? Except...why would you get it? You can't disable it unless you dip Rogue, and you won't get enough Int to get Concentration, Heal, Spellcraft, PLUS Search and Disable Device, to make an efficient trap-killer. You still get a +2 on saves vs. traps, which is...something, but not anything to expend 5 AP upon. Maybe if it was part of tabletop, it'd be interestingly good, but here? I can expend AP on better stuff.

Nice try, tho.

Overall for Tier 2: The only worthwhile ability is Efficient Metamagic, though there's good arguments for Energy Resistance. In between both, you get around 12 AP worth of abilities, which is fair. However, you get two pointless abilities, which feel like they're filler. Please, give us something better than Command. How about, if you feel like it...say, Shield? That way, there's no need for Clerics to have shields, until later on! Or, say...Blur! Yeah, that's great...! Certainly something that won't be on a few more tiers...

Protector Domain: Tier 3

Mastering Tier 3 of the Healing domain takes 20...something AP. You require 10 AP to reach next Tier, as you already have 10 points from the earlier Tier. I suspect it's 26 AP, but it could easily be 23.

Gives special favor to you and any allies near you, giving a +1 luck bonus to allies a -1 penalty to enemies attack rolls, weapon damage, saves, and skill checks. Spell point cost 10/5/1, cooldown 180/60/20 seconds.

So...you get a spell that you can already cast (again...) as an AP ability, but with reduced cooldown and SP cost. I personally like placing Prayer whenever available, so it might help to save a 3rd level spell slot.

On the other hand: by the time you get 6 spell slots, what you get might as well have Prayer. It's a nice spell, but not a spectacularly good one.

It's...just like Trapfinding: on another class (say, Ranger?), it'd be awesome: on a Cleric, not so much.

+1/2/3 AC
Requires: Energy Resistance of same rank

Eeeeh...what? Getting +2 AC for 2 AP is somewhat fair: +1 AC for 2 AP, not so much. And...with the first Core ability, you do just that. Had it been...say, +3 AC for 2 AP, then it'd be almost a must-have. ALMOST being the key word, because it's a Tier 3 ability. It feels like chump change.

Grant Armor
When you [name redacted], your target gains 1/2/3 stack(s) of Wary. Wary: +1 AC. Stacks up to 10 times. One stack fades every 3 seconds.
Requires: Armored of same rank, Grant Energy Resistance of same rank



I think I was pretty clear when I mentioned I abhor that class feature, it was because it's a bad idea. Now, by spending...what, 20 AP? Spend ALL that amount of AP for a miserable amount of PRR, a decent bonus to all energy resistances, and...a pathetic amount of AC that lowers every 3 seconds!? And only if you spend points in one of the worst abilities in existence!?

No, I'm not laughing, and I demand whomever thought this was a good idea to be fired immediately. At least just about every single other MMO gives something decent. But 3 AP for 3 seconds, which gets reduced to 2 AP for another 3 seconds, and then 1 AP for 3 seconds...that's nothing. The cost is just abusive.

In summary: it's a bad ability that depends on a too expensive AP chain that has its basis on a worthless ability. It is a maelstrom of fail, and I fear it's not the zenith...

You or target ally gains 2/4/6 stacks of Wary. Usable five times per rest. Wary: +1 AC. Stacks up to 10 times. One stack fades every 3 seconds.

Wary...for some reason, it sucks. It's not even the old-school version of AC boost, which nobody but Paladins that went Defender of Siberys ever took, because it's an amount of AC too small to ever matter. The fact it lasts for too little and then it decreases...

Oh yeah, and...I don't know how much AP I'm wasting on this ability. I presume this must be a problem on EllisDee's post (at least at the moment I wrote this), but even if it were a free ability, it wouldn't be worthwhile.

Ability Point
Select one of the following:
- Wisdom +1
- Charisma +1

An ability point is never bad. There's just a weeeeeee little problem. Say, why it can't be Constitution? Why Charisma again? If it were Constitution, it'd be a definite challenge: Wisdom is extremely valuable to any Cleric, but one or two points of Constitution means more HP, which is always good.

Overall for Tier 3: Wow, for being the middle range of the Protection domain, it really sucks! It's just like the Healing domain: many of the Tier 3 abilities aren't really worth my hard-earned AP. Except that, while at that level there's at least about 4-5 AP worth of abilities, here we only get 2 AP worth of abilities. We need 10 AP for Tier 4. That means we need to get more levels from Tiers 1 and 2, and it means trying to justify choosing utter manure in order to get higher-Tier abilities. Let's hope what we get later makes it worthwhile.

Protector Domain: Tier 4

Mastering Tier 4 of the Healing domain takes 26 AP. You require 20 AP to reach next Tier, as you already have 20 points from the earlier Tier.

Stalwart Pact
Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saves, and DR 5/Magic, if the target falls below 50% hit points. Costs 20/10/5 spell points, cooldown 60/40/20 seconds.

Again!? Do the devs even LEARN!?

I always get Stalwart Pact on my spell slots if I'm alone, and by the time I get to this ability, I might already be capable of casting that spell. For a Tier 4 ability, I don't find enough justification to spend AP to save the spell slot for something else, even though it's a 5th level spell I'm saving (more justification to get Divine Punishment, I think). It's like Command and Prayer: I already have them, and if I want to use them, I might as well place it on the spell slot and call it a day. If I don't want to use it, I don't spend AP for it.

Light Guard
When you take damage from an attack, your attacker received 1d4/1d6/1d8 light damage.
Requires: Armored of same rank

Hmm...on its own, it's a very nice ability. I'm a sucker for guards, and the more guards I get, the better. I also get up to 1d8 retributive Light damage every time I get hit, so with damage mitigation reducing damage to single digits, I can get better damage by getting hit a lot and going melee than casting a single spell..

On the other hand...why so late? And why so expensive? And why does it require such a bad ability as Armored? Then again...I need to get some filler, so that justifies me getting some Armored (and thus, reach almost +15 AC). Between this and Armored + Protector, I get an excuse to be a melee Cleric.

Now, if this ability was a Tier 3 ability, and Armored a Tier 1/2...I might see some people choosing it for Battle Clerics. It feels like Battle Cleric-worthy, but at this range...it's not. Goodness, it's not.

Grant Light Guard
[Name redacted] grants Light Guard to your targeted ally. Light Guard: When you take damage from an attack, your attacker received 1d4/1d6/1d8 light damage.
Requires: Light Guard of same rank, Grant Armor of same rank

Why, why, why, why, WHY!?

Why do you torture me so!

What have I done to you! I spent about 30 bucks in order to get Premium features, the Monk and Artificer classes, the Warforged race, and many Adventure Packs! I HAVE CONTRIBUTED!!

And what do I get! A pretty nice move, tied to the WORST ABILITY IN EXISTENCE!!

Am I someone deserving of such hate, than when I see an ability that's redeeming, I simply have to see that accursed set of words, that reflect a much more awesome-er ability than the pathetic shadow of a bonus it offers (and that it takes more than a quarter of your AP to boost), and weep tears of blood mixed with vile bile!?

And, for the best abilities around, I need to spend 12 extra AP? This is an insult for all us Cleric players!

I wanted to say it's good. I really, really do. But, I see those two Host-darned words, and I writhe in pain and anguish. I don't want to say it's a bad ability: the fact that you're granting a guard to an ally (say, a tank, which has the excuse of getting into melee), means they can stock up on guards and deal massive damage every time you get hit. However, I realize I get that on an ability that should make anyone who even thinks that it's a remotely decent idea question their beliefs, and it makes me cringe.

Right now, it feels like I'm looking at the Anti-Life Equation.

When damaged by physical attacks, you have a 5/10/15% chance to become Wary, gaining +1 AC for 3 seconds. Wary: +1 AC. Stacks up to 10 times. One stack fades every 3 seconds.
Requires: Alert of same rank

Eh...it's somewhat decent, but it requires two things: one, it requires being attacked, and two, it gives a really bad feature. It's still not [name redacted]-levels of fail, but it edges dangerously close.

Ability Point
Select one of the following:
- Wisdom +1
- Charisma +1

Look at what I said on Protector Domain Tier 3 regarding ability points. Exactly the same. No change whatsoever.

Overall for Tier 4: Why does it feel that the devs, or whomever designed the Protection domain, wants us to take the aborted child of an aberration that is [name redacted] by all means necessary? This ability is downright abominable, and yet, it's available almost at every level! I had my hopes high that this level was worthy, because I need to spend 20 AP to recoup my losses, and here I find that only two abilities might be of worth, and of those, one requires filler. Ugh.

Protector Domain: Tier 5

Mastering Tier 5 requires a measly 7 points.

The most effective way to get 40 points for this seems to be 3 points in Toughness, 2-6 points in Sacred Touch, 2-6 points in Energy Resistance, 6 points in Efficient Metamagic (Efficient Empower or Efficient Maximize), 2 points on your first ability score...that's about 15-23 points, so to reach Tier 5, we need to spend almost exclusively on those 5. Since of the Tier 4 abilities, Light Guard is pretty decent but requires Armored, we need between 2-6 points in Armored and the same amount on Light Guard, so that's about 4-12 extra points: with the second Ability Point, that's somewhere between 6-14 extra points. Assuming all maximums (23+14), that's 5 points we're missing. We STILL need filler to make this choice something worthwhile, but I leave to all of you to decide.

So, will Tier 5 abilities redeem this pile of...bull dung? Let's see:

You gain a permanent Blur effect, and Blur is added to your level 3 spell list.

This is...erm...I dunno...

Why didn't I got this before!? Make this a Tier 3 ability...heck, SPLIT the permanent Blur from the access to Blur, and you can work filler levels. As it stands, by the time you get 40 points, that means you reach level 10. By this level most enemies will have a way to bypass concealment, and the concealment provided is a wee bit too small, so...

It's a great ability, but it's most definitely NOT Tier 5 material.

Arcane Encumberance
When enemies damage you with spells, there's a 10/20/30% chance they will be knocked down. (Does not affect bosses.)
Requires: Light Guard of same rank

Erm...uhh...really? One in three chances to knock enemies down when they damage you with spells? Nothing to actually, you know...PREVENT these spells from being cast?

Sigh...this could make for a somewhat nice Tier 1 ability, but for what it is... At least it's cheap, but this isn't what I was looking for.

Dodge Elements
You or target ally gains 25% chance to completely ignore Acid, Cold, Electric and Fire damage. Cost 25 spell points, 1 minute cooldown.

Hot diggity darn! Now this is more like it! Sure, it's a 25% chance, and requires spending 25 SP, but this means 1 out of 4 spells are completely evaded, no ifs, buts or ands. This actually FEELS like a Tier 5 ability, and not just that, it's hilariously cheap! Not just that: allies also get the benefit!

Overall for Tier 5: For what I get...I'm not sure that spending that many points on Protection domain abilities, and specifically on (Host forbid!) [name redacted] and its nefarious gang, is worth what you get. Blur is nice, and Dodge Elements is also nice, but they're evasive maneuvers, not mitigating powers. You need to spend so much to get them, they really aren't worth all that crud I had to swim. 10 less AP or some better abilities down below, and Dodge Elements alone makes it rewarding to reach this Tier.

Overall for Protection Domain: after seeing some of the features you get, it feels that the Protection domain was built for a tank in mind. Granted: a tank/buffer, but a tank nonetheless. The cleric can make a nice tank (Shield of Faith, Nightshield, Resist Energy, Protection from Elements, Blade Barrier, Holy Aura, Stalwart Pact, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement), but a tank fails without Intimidate or a way to lure enemies to attack. Furthermore, a proper tank must have a decent way to boost its melee damage potential, and this domain offers none. If this domain, say, offered a boost to attack or damage rolls in mostly the same way as Sacred Pact does, then people might choose it a bit more.

Personally, I feel this was the intention of the Warpriest, as it somewhat fits what the tabletop PrC gives. Warpriest is more of a buffer than a caster or melee warrior, focused on negating fear and charm effects, as well as providing Haste and a few existing spells, a fear aura, and a Diehard-ish effect. Most people felt the Warpriest was meant to be a melee Cleric build enabler, which is most likely not the case.

I'd personally get rid/trade places of:
Close Wounds, Command, Stalwart Pact, Death Pact. I already have these spells: if I don't want them, I won't place them on a spell slot or spend AP to get them. On the other hand, if I want to make them useful, I might as well sacrifice a spell slot for it. Command and Close Wounds certainly don't feel like "protective" abilities, and both Stalwart Pact and Death Pact are self-buffs.
Awareness/Trapfinding. If you can't disable traps, or actually even KNOW what the traps do, might as well leave it to an actual master of it (say, a Rogue or Artificer; I'd add Ranger to the list, but...)
Grant Energy Resistance and Grant Armor. I wouldn't remove them per se, but make them depend on something else. Why not Sacred Touch, instead? You'll see more use out of it, and while it lasts for a short while, it makes your healing far better.
Armored. You already have something better with the actual autogrant ability, Protector. Might as well scrap it, or lower it down to Tier 1, or even make it a higher level autogrant Core ability.
Alert. Good grief, this ability is bad. Not as bad as [name redacted], but it's bad nonetheless. Increase the amount of seconds it lasts (like, say, the Precise Shot stance ability), and we might speak.

Abilities that are really good, but I'd lower a Tier:
Blur. I'd do something better: split the permanent Blur effect from the spell effect. I'd place giving the Blur spell as a tier 2 ability costing 2 AP, and the permanent Blur effect as a Tier 3/4 ability costing 2 AP. That's 4 AP I'd be willing to spend.
Light Guard. It's a great ability, but it's too little, and depends on an ability that feels like filler. Drop it to Tier 3 and it'll be a must have.
Cautious. This really needs a change, because the base ability is bad. As a Tier 3 ability, it might be somewhat useful.

Abilities with reduced cost
Energy Resistance. It gives a great ability, but it costs a wee bit too much. 1 AP per rank, or 2/1/1 might cut it nicely.
Sanctuary. It...has some promise, but for 77 SP, it's not worthwhile. Then again, it's not very worthwhile for what it offers. As a 1 AP Tier 1 ability, with its boosts costing 1 AP, you might go somewhere, but as it stands, it's 8 AP I feel wasted. Please, reduce the SP cost to something manageable (5-10 SP at first, with each improvement boosting the SP cost accordingly).

Abilities I would add:
Say, why not add Stoneskin? This feels like a nice protective spell Protector clerics lack. I would have said Mind Blank, but that doesn't exist as a spell. With Blur and Stoneskin, you really have some strong protective spells added to the Cleric's arsenal. While at it, think of adding Haste as well; it's part of the Warpriest, of which I feel a strong vibe when I see this domain.
Make an ability that makes pacts (such as Stalwart Pact and Death Pact) usable on allies. The Stalwart Pact effect on, say, a Barbarian or Fighter gives the Cleric a breather, and improves their defensive capabilities.
Provide some boosts to attack and damage with melee weapons. Remember: the best defense is a good offense.

And, of course...

An ability I would like to see removed by all means:
Shield. Other. Please. Redeem yourselves, devs. You know in your heart this sucks. Read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm). Absorb all the information it offers, and give it to Paladins as a spell, then allow Clerics of the Protection domain to add it to their spell list by spending AP. But this...this is an affront to good taste and good design.

Hopefully this'll be read by a developer, but I really doubt it. You see, I can't certainly write this massive wall of text with all its links and formatting on the bug tool, so I need to use this as an alternate means. It'd be great to have a dev answer bit by bit instead of a simple "read by a dev", because I read a lot of stuff and yet not provide any worthwhile information on it. However, a dev that reads a wall of text and pretty much addresses everything is one that REALLY read a post and decided to act on it. However, I'm not just challenging devs to read this, but also any poster that wishes to defend some abilities, provide deeper insight on others, or even counter my arguments on abilities I actually support.

UPDATE (4/19/13): With the new week and the changes to Enhancement costs, a few things change here. Mostly, the recommendation for how to reach Tier 5 based on useful abilities got better.

The most effective way to get 40 points for this seems to be 3 points in Toughness, 2-6 points in Sacred Touch, 2-6 points in Energy Resistance, 6 points in Efficient Metamagic (Efficient Empower or Efficient Maximize), 2 points on your first ability score...that's about 15-23 points, so to reach Tier 5, we need to spend almost exclusively on those 5. Since of the Tier 4 abilities, Light Guard is pretty decent but requires Armored, we need between 2-6 points in Armored and the same amount on Light Guard, so that's about 4-12 extra points: with the second Ability Point, that's somewhere between 6-14 extra points. Assuming all maximums (23+14), you need about 7 of those 14 points: since all of the abilities have a 2 AP cost, you can at least drop 1 point from the earlier abilities and play right to 30 points.

04-18-2013, 03:07 AM
Varg turned up on my worked example thread after I linked to it in the official discussion thread. I also bug reported the same content. There's some good feedback here, can I suggest you guys do one or both? :)

04-18-2013, 05:45 AM
Very good job Tgoskar! Very informative and detailed evaluations ,both of them ! Thanks i couldn't write them better . ./signed and agreed +1