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Lighti
04-12-2013, 05:02 AM
This is based on my view from playing a pure 20 Dwarven Fighter that tanks all raids in the game.
Will only list abilities I think need changing to save space

Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

Overbalance: 2 AP. Shields gain knockdown on Vorpal.
Has no save from what i see and no timer so mobs stand up straight away. Make it no save knockdown then balance check based on your trip DC to stand up again.

Stalwart Defense: 2 AP. Perma Stance granting 10 PRR & 50% threat. -10% movement speed & immunity to rage. (Requires equipped Shield and Melee Weapon)
Basic Stalwart stance fair enough. Is removed when a throwing weapon or scrol/wand is equipped. This needs changing since range is a crucial part in tanking Raids such as LoB and FoT aswell as stopping UMD toons.

Standfast: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: granting +20 save vs fear and knockdown, removes those effects if used whilst feared or knockeddown.
Will rarely be used especially seeing as it locks you out of other action boosts with the timer. At least make it a seprate cooldown.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.



Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

Greater Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con
Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str
Tenacious Defense +[10/15/20]% maximum Hp
Again Costing 2 AP each tier is too expensve. Especially seeing as 3 stages to this line following on from Improved Stalwart Defense. And diminishing returns on Tenacious defense only gaining 5% hp after the 1st tier for the same amount of AP sucks.



Other

Threatening Countenance: 1 AP. [1/2/3]Haggle, [1/2/3] Intimidate & [5/10/15]% melee threat.
Make it [2/4/6] so as we can gain a resonable boost to intimidate at least and could even do with [10/20/30] for those that want to tank without using a shield.



Instinctive Defense: 1 AP. Take [5/10/15]% less additional damage whilst helpless.
At least make it [10/20/30] and people might consider it. At the moment its a waste of AP.



Counter Attack: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost. If you are attacked whilst blocking your next attack within 3 seconds gains +[1/2/3][W].
This ability really sucks as an action boost. Blocking is used as a response to something. People won't hit a boost then think ooo lets block so as to do more damage. It should be a permanent ability that costs 1 AP per tier otherwise it will never be used.



Block and Cut: 1 AP. Melee Attack dealing +[1/2/3][W] and on damage [10/15/25]% Double strike for 10 seconds. 20 second Cooldown.
Personally i would prefer to just have a permanent [5/10/15]% Double strike whilst using a shield.



Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.



Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

Lehmu
04-12-2013, 07:42 AM
Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then. :(

voodoogroves
04-12-2013, 07:49 AM
If this eliminates anyone being a stalwart who isn't using a shield, that's super lame.

Super lame.

Jitty
04-12-2013, 07:49 AM
Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then. :(

No more scroll buffs, wand use, scroll healing or using two handed weapons briefly when you aren't tanking, throwing weapons. This really should change especially because the stance isn't useable a number of times per rest anymore, but has a minute long cool down on it. It basicly makes you entirely reliant on other people to do anything that doesn't involve a sword and shield.

Ape_Man
04-12-2013, 07:55 AM
Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then. :(

This is absolutely terrible and reaks of Neverwinter. This absolutely needs to change.

JOTMON
04-12-2013, 09:27 AM
Looks like the proposed Stalwart invalidates any non-shield build now. more pidgeon holing.

also...too many short term clickies for a tank.
Tanks are needed for the fights that take more than 30 seconds...Holding aggro in long duration fights
So a key mashing bunch of 30 second clickies are not of much use.

Taojeff
04-12-2013, 09:48 AM
This is based on my view from playing a pure 20 Dwarven Fighter that tanks all raids in the game.
Will only list abilities I think need changing to save space

Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

I agree, no one is going to be hit more then a tank, they should be able to build to take it. With diminishing returns on prr and ac, this is important.

Overbalance: 2 AP. Shields gain knockdown on Vorpal.
Has no save from what i see and no timer so mobs stand up straight away. Make it no save knockdown then balance check based on your trip DC to stand up again.

Stalwart Defense: 2 AP. Perma Stance granting 10 PRR & 50% threat. -10% movement speed & immunity to rage. (Requires equipped Shield and Melee Weapon)
Basic Stalwart stance fair enough. Is removed when a throwing weapon or scrol/wand is equipped. This needs changing since range is a crucial part in tanking Raids such as LoB and FoT aswell as stopping UMD toons.

Standfast: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: granting +20 save vs fear and knockdown, removes those effects if used whilst feared or knockeddown.
Will rarely be used especially seeing as it locks you out of other action boosts with the timer. At least make it a seprate cooldown.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.



Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

Totally agree here. All of these need to be 1 AP per point invested. It seems silly to me that I need to spend 80 points in stalwart to build my tank and only 40-50 in other builds main tree (kensai, tempest etc) for those builds.


Greater Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con
Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str
Tenacious Defense +[10/15/20]% maximum Hp
Again Costing 2 AP each tier is too expensve. Especially seeing as 3 stages to this line following on from Improved Stalwart Defense. And diminishing returns on Tenacious defense only gaining 5% hp after the 1st tier for the same amount of AP sucks.

Same as above. 1ap

Other

Threatening Countenance: 1 AP. [1/2/3]Haggle, [1/2/3] Intimidate & [5/10/15]% melee threat.
Make it [2/4/6] so as we can gain a resonable boost to intimidate at least and could even do with [10/20/30] for those that want to tank without using a shield.



Instinctive Defense: 1 AP. Take [5/10/15]% less additional damage whilst helpless.
At least make it [10/20/30] and people might consider it. At the moment its a waste of AP.



Counter Attack: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost. If you are attacked whilst blocking your next attack within 3 seconds gains +[1/2/3][W].
This ability really sucks as an action boost. Blocking is used as a response to something. People won't hit a boost then think ooo lets block so as to do more damage. It should be a permanent ability that costs 1 AP per tier otherwise it will never be used.

Yeah clickies for defense is generally not a good idea, especially with the lag we get in game. I know you do not want to build around lag, but its a definite factor and people build around it. Having to use a clickie for a defensive ability that may or may not go off because of lag is not a good idea.

Block and Cut: 1 AP. Melee Attack dealing +[1/2/3][W] and on damage [10/15/25]% Double strike for 10 seconds. 20 second Cooldown.
Personally i would prefer to just have a permanent [5/10/15]% Double strike whilst using a shield.

I do not mind the clickie as it does ok damage, but the cooldown should be halved.

Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.



Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

I think this class would be perfect for a shield charge. The shield line could also use a shield stun ability. There are a couple good ones from PnP to get ideas from. Maybe just a 1/3/5% chance to stun on shield bash.



my comments under your comments in green (btw thanks for doing all the work I was going to review this in similar fashion but easier to just comment on your comments).

Overall the main problem with this tree is the AP cost. Other then than that just some tweaking

Taojeff
04-12-2013, 09:50 AM
Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then. :(

Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.

Feithlin
04-12-2013, 12:04 PM
I agree with Lighti comments (even if I don't add anything). I'll only add a few more.



Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

Maybe things could be twinked a bit to give the biggest HP bonus in the higher levels. Maybe something like: Every point spent in the SD tree gives a HP bonus equal to the tier of the ability.
Example: when you spend a point in a tier 4 ability, you gain 4 HP; when you spend a point in a tier 1 ability, you gain 1 HP.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.

Totally agreed; having 2 action boosts for the last 2 tiers is pretty lame. However, a "oh s**t" button can be nice (either at tier 4 or at tier 5).
The main problem is I can't see the actual benefit of Last Stand. What happens if you took a bit hit and are down to next to nothing: do you gain twice this next to nothing, or are you back to full HP + next to nothing? In the first case, that means the action boost would only be useful if you know something is coming, which is quite limiting and hardly fits the 3 min cooldown linked to the boost.

Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

I totally agree again. 1 AP for each tier seems way enough and would give more AP to strengthen offense (in the kensei tree for example), which is usually what really lack tank characters to make them attractive outside of raids and/or solo runs.

Other

Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.

These two may be changed into a percentage bonus to shield and armor AC: +10%/+20%/+30%.

Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

There could be various abilities, granting different bonuses to this stance:

Tier 3: Stand against Iron (= Lighti's proposal)
Requires: Combat Expertise
Your Combat Expertise grants an additional 5% to AC for each tier, for a total of 15%/20%/25%.

Tier 5: Stand against Weird
Requires: Combat Expertise
Your Combat Expertise grants an additional +1 to saves for each tier, for a total of +1/+2/+3 to saves.

giggiddy
04-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Awesome change on the shield!! I can't wait to be sitting at 50 HP on my S&B tank and swap to a scroll + epic flameward to hjeal myself BAM dropped stalwart stance and dead. Well thought out Turbine.

Ape_Man
04-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Awesome change on the shield!! I can't wait to be sitting at 50 HP on my S&B tank and swap to a scroll + epic flameward to hjeal myself BAM dropped stalwart stance and dead. Well thought out Turbine.

Stop making sense, the fanbois will start to choke to death on their own BS.

Darkrok
04-12-2013, 01:59 PM
The shield requirement on Stalwart is definitely terrible. I thought we'd gotten out of the 'this PrE and that PrE shouldn't be able to work together' stage years ago. As someone who greatly enjoys Stalwart + Monk in many configurations I'd be very sad to see this go live.

giggiddy
04-12-2013, 02:04 PM
Oh you are dead and want a rez? Sorry that's what FVS and Clerics are for. I can't raise you or I lose an action boost and might end up joining your soul stone, eat a rez cake *****. That will be 50 TP.

smatt
04-12-2013, 02:07 PM
No more scroll buffs, wand use, scroll healing or using two handed weapons briefly when you aren't tanking, throwing weapons. This really should change especially because the stance isn't useable a number of times per rest anymore, but has a minute long cool down on it. It basicly makes you entirely reliant on other people to do anything that doesn't involve a sword and shield.


A 1 minute cooldown you say? Really....

So much for Stalwart being useful if this sticks...

Next...

Taojeff
04-12-2013, 03:44 PM
A 1 minute cooldown you say? Really....

So much for Stalwart being useful if this sticks...

Next...

I did not see a number of uses per day on lama for stalwart. Let me go check the cool down..(runs over to lama land)....yep. Too long. If you are going to have people drop out of it to use scrolls then you better make it go back in. I think really it should not be a stance you click but something you auto go into when wielding a shield and a weapon.


Btw, it no longer has a number of charges a day....that is all for shield ability action boosts now. Stalwart u can do as many times as you want.

Simonhook
04-12-2013, 06:37 PM
A shield should be a prerequisite to Stalwart Defender. Common sense would tell me, if you want to be defensive build, a shield and one-handed melee weapon provide much more defense over 2HF and 2WF. And having one-handed melee weapons as a prerequisite, is something I can agree with, to a degree. One-handed melee weapons can be used to defend yourself along with a shield providing the best defensive bonus. Now with throwing weapons with a shield, they could be used to defend yourself as well but not as good, with the exception of shuriken, which can provided no defensive bonus. And now, how can a twig called a wand, or a piece of paper called a scroll, provide any kind of defense? It can't. So I have to agree with that if you use a wand or scroll you loose your defensive bonus from Stalwart Defender stance. Now if you want to use scrolls and wands, they should make Stalwart Defender Stance a passive ability that is applied when you go S&B, and getting rid of the one minute cooldown timer.

Simonhook
04-12-2013, 06:57 PM
I agree with Lighti, your suggestions are bang on to what i think. The cost of action points Stalwart, is to high. Going from the live system which cost 30 action points give or take a few points depending on your build, to 70 action points give or take a few points depending on your build, to get the benefits we had before. Could easily cut the 2 action points to 1 action point and would still be able to create a decent DPS Stalwart build allowing us to have some creativity in the build.

Also how come we don't have the ability to get fighter strength 3 in the Stalwart line?

Wipey
04-12-2013, 07:05 PM
Oh you are dead and want a rez? Sorry that's what FVS and Clerics are for. I can't raise you or I lose an action boost and might end up joining your soul stone, eat a rez cake *****. That will be 50 TP.
I have good news for you. It's the only thing clerics will be able to do, so rejoice !
Everybody knows you can't heal on fighter and shouldn't be using sorcerer item anyway.

Epic Flameward is the exact reason I don't have to have SF UMD on mine...

eonfreon
04-16-2013, 02:56 AM
Say, it looks like you don't get Stalwart Defense Stance until level 6 just like Live, right? Yet, all the improved Stalwart Defense stuff is in tiers 1 to 5, when a Fighter is at level 1-5.

The problem is that points spent in the Defender Tree count as "Toughness enhancements". Normally by then I like to get 2 Fighter Toughness Feats which equals 20 hp. On Live Toughness 1 and 2 = 3 AP (1+2). But I'd have to spend 20 AP worth of stuff in the Alpha Tree instead. That's all the points I would have at the end of level 5, from what I figure.

How easy is it to spend 20 pts in the Defender Tree while you're leveling up and don't even have access to the Stance? For things that are actually useful, I mean? I'm looking at it and it's a little confusing. All the values don't seem to be in and some things don't seem to fit. It just seems like most of the Defender stuff is tied into the Level 6 ability, while Kensai seems to be granted at level 1 and built up from there. Am I reading it right?

I mean, is there some purpose for getting Improved Stalwart Stuff that adds to a Stance you don't have yet? I know there is other stuff in there, but it seems hard to spend many points in it until the Stance becomes available.

I realize that for all intents and purposes, all Fighters are Kensai AND Defenders now, just up to everyone how much of a Kensai/Defender they are. But it just strikes me as odd that the Kensai line has it's "Weapon Specialization" from level 1 onwards, while the Defender line can't access the Stance stuff until level 6.

Just odd to me. Wondering if I'm reading it right.

Dandonk
04-16-2013, 03:03 AM
I thought one of the great things about DDO was the ability to make a character that uses the build options in new and different ways. Please don't start forcing people into using the "right" way to build and play.

Flexibility is good, open design is good. Changing stalwart to requiring shield = not good.

aristarchus1000
04-16-2013, 03:14 AM
I don't have a huge problem with the shield bonus, but I think it should not be all or nothing. Let those not using a shield and weapon get a 50% of the bonus.

The cooldown should go though. The stalwart is weakening his defenses to swap to a scroll but he should not have to wait a full minute after switching back to his sword and shield to regain defensive benefits.

eonfreon
04-16-2013, 03:47 AM
I don't have a huge problem with the shield bonus, but I think it should not be all or nothing. Let those not using a shield and weapon get a 50% of the bonus.

The cooldown should go though. The stalwart is weakening his defenses to swap to a scroll but he should not have to wait a full minute after switching back to his sword and shield to regain defensive benefits.

Yes. If they are fully committed to making just about everything break the Stance then the cooldown needs to go. Heck, it shouldn't even have to be activated anymore, just make it activate as soon as you meet the requirements; have a weapon and shield equipped. Get rid of the extra click needed to activate it. Just forcing a shield and weapon combo is nerf enough, they're really going overboard here. It's not even a needed nerf, but I can kind of see their point now that they've opened up some aspects of it to be able to be taken by any heavy damage dealing Kensei, they don't want the passive bonuses to be "always on", but still. Heck, even 25% would be better than making it nothing.

Because, let's face it, using a shield is incredibly suboptimal. You either really build for it or you largely ignore it, maybe break it out in some easy content to shield block, because on Elite shield DR scales very badly without Feats and investments in it. So most damage dealing Kensei types aren't ever going to bother throwing on a shield, they're better off running away very, very fast if a situation gets that sticky. Plus, as long as you have one "tank" type, you don't generally really need another.

So any Kensei that's getting any of the Stance stuff, which he might just to get some more APs spent for some more "Toughness", is probably going to go through entire quests without ever pulling out a shield once. So, from his point of view he'd be better off with "Item Defense" or something. At least that's something that he can see some benefit from. If there was some benefit to the Stance that was actually passive and if the Stance wasn't such a PITA to not come out of and then be stuck waiting a full minute (in a game with incredibly fast movement and combat), then at least it might rate higher than Item Defense.

Please Devs. Make the Stance be a better option than Item Defense, so that I can put a few more points in the DEfender Tree. I need the hps you've taken away from me. I need to spend some points in the Defender tree.

Draiden
04-16-2013, 05:34 AM
I thought one of the great things about DDO was the ability to make a character that uses the build options in new and different ways. Please don't start forcing people into using the "right" way to build and play.

Flexibility is good, open design is good. Changing stalwart to requiring shield = not good.

/signed

DDO, since 2004, has been all about the ability to get creative and successfully build "outside of the box" builds... many of which are incredibly successfull and intensely enjoyable. The overall feeling after the last few updates has been very much the opposite. Many people are arguing that there are only a few viable builds for EE content, and time is proving them correct. Turbine needs to stop this line of thinking and go back to a "Yes, you can do X" attitude as opposed to the "No, you can't do X anymore because of Y".

I really hope the thought processes start to evolve in a different direction soon. For the first time in nine years, I'm struggling to find enjoyment in my favorite game. I don't like Shiradi Sorc/Wiz builds, Sword and Board Tanks, Arcane Archers, Healbots or Artificers. As a result, I am suddenly no longer a viable player for EE content.

Draiden
04-16-2013, 05:45 AM
A shield should be a prerequisite to Stalwart Defender. Common sense would tell me, if you want to be defensive build, a shield and one-handed melee weapon provide much more defense over 2HF and 2WF. And having one-handed melee weapons as a prerequisite, is something I can agree with, to a degree. One-handed melee weapons can be used to defend yourself along with a shield providing the best defensive bonus. Now with throwing weapons with a shield, they could be used to defend yourself as well but not as good, with the exception of shuriken, which can provided no defensive bonus. And now, how can a twig called a wand, or a piece of paper called a scroll, provide any kind of defense? It can't. So I have to agree with that if you use a wand or scroll you loose your defensive bonus from Stalwart Defender stance. Now if you want to use scrolls and wands, they should make Stalwart Defender Stance a passive ability that is applied when you go S&B, and getting rid of the one minute cooldown timer.

No. A shield should be a requirement to MAXIMIZE the defensive abilities, as is the case... but having one presently equiped should not be a requirement for the ENTIRETY of the PrE benefits.

If you want to argue the logical reality of a video game, which I always avoid doing... fine. Let's do that. Would a "Stalwart Defender", a master of defensive combat strategies, only be effective in minimizing damage so long as he/she is holding a shield and sword? Or do you think it's feasible that other elements of combat could attribute to their overall defensive strategy? Sure, to completely turtle up and maximize their defensive abilities, it makes sense that they would invest fully in shield proficiencies and such. However, to completely pigeon-hole the entire PrE to a very cookie-cutter kind of build... that's not DDO. That's WoW.

Draiden
04-16-2013, 05:47 AM
Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.

I'll check it out and hope for the best, Taojeff.

Dandonk
04-16-2013, 06:20 AM
Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.

Limiting choices for this weak reason is still bad, IMO. If they are afraid it would be OP, they could just make the bonuses non-stacking. At least then, we would have a choice.

Feithlin
04-16-2013, 08:05 PM
No. A shield should be a requirement to MAXIMIZE the defensive abilities, as is the case... but having one presently equiped should not be a requirement for the ENTIRETY of the PrE benefits.


On this I agree completely. There should have general defensive abilities for any build, and some more specific, requiring a shield, which should add more defense and/or add offense to compensate the loss of dps from using a shield (because, let's be honest, if people ask for defensive abilities not requiring a shield, it's because using one adds little to defense and greatly reduces dps).

Vargouille
04-17-2013, 11:35 AM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

Ape_Man
04-17-2013, 11:40 AM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

Thank you, the way things work now on live is fine.

Jay203
04-17-2013, 12:12 PM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

lose the shield requirement
but grant extra bonus for while wearing shield so that it's tempting to go shield and sword

Ape_Man
04-17-2013, 12:22 PM
lose the shield requirement
but grant extra bonus for while wearing shield so that it's tempting to go shield and sword

Dude . . . for the love of all that is holy . . . WE ALREADY HAVE THIS NOW ON LIVE.

Qezuzu
04-17-2013, 12:31 PM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

By "loosen" I hope you mean "remove".

Bzzzt
04-17-2013, 01:08 PM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

The current alpha system is set up as a punishment system vs live which is a reward system.

Alpha punishes the user by removing the abilities when not wielding a shield.
Live rewards the user with more bonuses when you do wield a shield.

Possible rework:
Core Tier 0: Stalwart Defender Stance Grants -10% movement speed & immunity to rage.

Enhancement Tiers then augment this basic stance in a variety of ways with options that grant extra goodies for Sword and Boarding.

Tier 1: 2 AP per enhancement per tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR. Grants an additional 5/10/15 PRR if the user is wielding a shield.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen. Grants a +5/10/15 to intimidate while blocking with a shield.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves. Grants an additional 1/2/3 to all saves while the user is wielding a shield.

Tier 2: 2 AP per enhancement per tier.
Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con. Grants +5/10/15% maximum HP if the user is wielding a shield.
Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str. Grants an additional 2/4/6 damage if the user is wielding a shield.
Tenacious Defense Grants: On attacked, user is healed for 1/2/3d3 positive energy (affected by heal amp). While blocking with a shield additionally grants a 10/15/20% Stalwart bonus to positive energy amplification.

A rework such as this justifies the expensive AP costs with a reward if the user is shield based while not removing the tree from being unviable for being a non-shield wielder. In my opinion this prestige is entirely about the stance. While the tree shouldn't be entirely devoted to enhancing the stance, the majority of it I feel should augment the stance in various ways. As it stands we are being forced between choosing between the three main qualities of the old stance which was so very good. I shouldn't be forced to pick between Strength, Constitution and +%max HP (or Saves, PRR, and Threat Generation). I want all of these and it feels horrendous to be a tank and not being able to take all of them (especially since I used to get all of these as part of the stance).

tl;dr: Make the Stalwart stance: "Get bonuses. If shield, more bonuses." Not its current: "if shield, get stance."

~Scrapheap
05-01-2013, 02:22 AM
We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

At minimum, it'd be nice to see it triggered off Defensive Fighting/CE as well.