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mikarddo
04-12-2013, 04:52 AM
They put out an alpha test of their newest system hoping for atleast some praise yet 99%+ of all comments are completely devoid of praise and the few that contain some praise temper it with a list of cons as well.

It seems that much more work than simply tweaking remains based on the feedback sofar. That has to be a rude awakening for the devs who made this in the hope we would like it.

Anyway, the good part as I see it is the UI which is definitely far cleaner. Thats much appreciated.

blerkington
04-12-2013, 04:59 AM
Hi,

I think being a little thick-skinned and trying to interpret the criticism constructively helps.

That being said, it's also a self-inflicted injury. I hope a mixture of pride and laziness does not conspire to allow the worst changes to go through to live servers.

Thanks.

Viisari
04-12-2013, 05:01 AM
They put out an alpha test of their newest system hoping for atleast some praise yet 99%+ of all comments are completely devoid of praise and the few that contain some praise temper it with a list of cons as well.

It seems that much more work than simply tweaking remains based on the feedback sofar. That has to be a rude awakening for the devs who made this in the hope we would like it.

Anyway, the good part as I see it is the UI which is definitely far cleaner. Thats much appreciated.

Some of the class prestiges, like tempest and deepwood looked pretty good.

But on the other hand, everything seems way too costly atm, many of the racial and prestige trees (like kensai or warforged) seem are rather underwhelming, the way this whole thing is structured looks like multiclassing is getting nerfed, having to use skill points on heal/repair/spellcraft to gain equal amounts of spell power is also a huge nerf for everything except wizards.

The system has potential but currently it's not looking like something I'd want in the game. But considering this is still an alpha I do hope the devs will listen to feedback.

Charononus
04-12-2013, 05:22 AM
But considering this is still an alpha I do hope the devs will listen to feedback.

I find your optimism disturbing.

Dhalgren
04-12-2013, 05:23 AM
They did not put this out "hoping for praise". Yes, praise is alway nice, but this was put out as an early alpha, with the caveat that there WILL be bugs. There will be exclusions, omissions, problems, bugs, etc--and this is expected.

There is no case of "poor devs" here. We all knew--and they even told us--that this would not be expected to really work that well. This is out there to get feedback (which the devs are getting) on a very early phase of the job.

The problem is that people are freaking out without necessarily taking the above into account.

Yes, if this were to launch as-is, that would be a huge problem; maybe a disaster. But that's simply the nature of an alpha release.

For now, restraint and a large grain of salt are required. While Turbine does have a history of ignoring advice, it also has a history of taking advice. If, when this gets closer to launch, it's still like this, then I'll be right there with a torch and pitchfork. But for the moment, don't focus too much on the specifics and focus more on the generalities: mechanics, UI, etc. The specifics are important, yes, but at this point we need to make sure that the base for them to sit on is stable and solid.

Charononus
04-12-2013, 05:25 AM
They did not put this out "hoping for praise". Yes, praise is alway nice, but this was put out as an early alpha, with the caveat that there WILL be bugs. There will be exclusions, omissions, problems, bugs, etc--and this is expected.

There is no case of "poor devs" here. We all knew--and they even told us--that this would not be expected to really work that well. This is out there to get feedback (which the devs are getting) on a very early phase of the job.

The problem is that people are freaking out without necessarily taking the above into account.

Yes, if this were to launch as-is, that would be a huge problem; maybe a disaster. But that's simply the nature of an alpha release.

For now, restraint and a large grain of salt are required. While Turbine does have a history of ignoring advice, it also has a history of taking advice. If, when this gets closer to launch, it's still like this, then I'll be right there with a torch and pitchfork. But for the moment, don't focus too much on the specifics and focus more on the generalities: mechanics, UI, etc. The specifics are important, yes, but at this point we need to make sure that the base for them to sit on is stable and solid.
The disturbing part isn't that it's like this in an alpha. The disturbing part is that a dev thought "I have a great idea" and coded this system to start. The core idea's of the enhancement pass are rotten.

Forzah
04-12-2013, 05:30 AM
It seems like the biggest concern so far is the AP cost... if they do that properly (i.e. making not very wanted effects 1 AP and the best effects 2 AP per tier), things will look much different already.

Viisari
04-12-2013, 05:40 AM
It seems like the biggest concern so far is the AP cost... if they do that properly (i.e. making not very wanted effects 1 AP and the best effects 2 AP per tier), things will look much different already.

There's still the issue of being limited to just three trees which is pretty damaging to multiclasses.

ddobard1
04-12-2013, 05:41 AM
prestige classes for all races/classes FTW!

mikarddo
04-12-2013, 05:44 AM
They did not put this out "hoping for praise". Yes, praise is alway nice, but this was put out as an early alpha, with the caveat that there WILL be bugs. There will be exclusions, omissions, problems, bugs, etc--and this is expected.

There is no case of "poor devs" here. We all knew--and they even told us--that this would not be expected to really work that well. This is out there to get feedback (which the devs are getting) on a very early phase of the job.

The problem is that people are freaking out without necessarily taking the above into account.

Yes, if this were to launch as-is, that would be a huge problem; maybe a disaster. But that's simply the nature of an alpha release.

For now, restraint and a large grain of salt are required. While Turbine does have a history of ignoring advice, it also has a history of taking advice. If, when this gets closer to launch, it's still like this, then I'll be right there with a torch and pitchfork. But for the moment, don't focus too much on the specifics and focus more on the generalities: mechanics, UI, etc. The specifics are important, yes, but at this point we need to make sure that the base for them to sit on is stable and solid.

They put this out asking us to help find bugs - not to help design the system from the buttom or even to tweak it. They most definitely were hoping for overall praise temperet with "but you need to tweak this and that". Instead they are getting "this isnt working at the core - major change is needed" without hardly anyone liking the basic ideas in the implementation.

If that isnt sucky news as a dev then I dont know what would be. Anyway, lets hope they have the time and resources to listen and fix things up.

Dhalgren
04-12-2013, 06:46 AM
They put this out asking us to help find bugs - not to help design the system from the buttom or even to tweak it. They most definitely were hoping for overall praise temperet with "but you need to tweak this and that". Instead they are getting "this isnt working at the core - major change is needed" without hardly anyone liking the basic ideas in the implementation.

If that isnt sucky news as a dev then I dont know what would be. Anyway, lets hope they have the time and resources to listen and fix things up.

You can continue to think that if you like, but that's not how software development works. Sure, a bit of praise for the good bits is nice, but the ONLY point to any release named "alpha" is to find problems. That's all alpha is for.

mikarddo
04-12-2013, 06:49 AM
You can continue to think that if you like, but that's not how software development works. Sure, a bit of praise for the good bits is nice, but the ONLY point to any release named "alpha" is to find problems. That's all alpha is for.

I have been a freelance part of developing computer games in the past. Based on that I certainly beg to differ but lets just agree to disagree then seeing you think otherwise.

Charononus
04-12-2013, 06:54 AM
You can continue to think that if you like, but that's not how software development works. Sure, a bit of praise for the good bits is nice, but the ONLY point to any release named "alpha" is to find problems. That's all alpha is for.


I have been a freelance part of developing computer games in the past. Based on that I certainly beg to differ but lets just agree to disagree then seeing you think otherwise.

Yes alpha's exist to find problems, in both execution (bugs) and design (things not intuitive, not as functional as thought ext). However in my experience it's rare to find a game company that will scrap current work when the alpha or beta testers tell them that the core concepts are bad and that any fixing will just bandaid the root problems.

This is the problem with the enhancement pass, even if they tweak things to being somewhat better it's still bandaids on a gangrenous wound, it needs amputation.

Kayla93
04-12-2013, 07:02 AM
Its not like that. Its pretty normal theres mor crying and rage than praises cause... ppl who are good with changes rarely speak up. People that dont like sth scream the loudest.
Also praise = nerf in most cases so...
I didnt only write how bad changes are. Theyre not. But I wrote about what needs to be changed.
I think only halfling and dwarf trees are decent from racials -> but need some small repairs also.

Dhalgren
04-12-2013, 07:06 AM
I have been a freelance part of developing computer games in the past. Based on that I certainly beg to differ but lets just agree to disagree then seeing you think otherwise.

That is not a lot of industry experience you have there.

TrinityTurtle
04-12-2013, 07:14 AM
It is also worth noting that anyone in their field understands the nature of public communication. Most players aren't motivated to come to the forums unless they are angry about something. Not all, there is a significant portion of people who come here to learn or just to communicate with others, but to look at the forums you think the entire player populations hates the game, hates the devs, hates Turbine in general. But in the game there are a lot of people just enjoying a game in their free time. They toss around a number that only about 5 to 10% of the players read the forums. Sometimes I forget that, until there is a new things that goes lives that we have discussed to death and the live server is literally mass bombarded with the most basic questions about it. It's clear that most players actually DON'T read the forums, and as often as it happens, I'm surprised every time. LOL I learn so much here, despite all the forum rage and crazy. :)

I doubt devs expect any praise for this, I think what they are looking for here is to see what draws the most attention(both positive and negative attention), what draws the least, and how people can break the new things and use them in ways not intended so they know what they are getting into when they release. Unless they are VERY new in the workforce in general, they know what the general public is like. :)

hit_fido
04-12-2013, 07:25 AM
Unless they are VERY new in the workforce in general, they know what the general public is like. :)

Or more specifically... the "general MMO forum public"... heh. I'm sure they expected exactly what is happening and will filter out the static accordingly.