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dlsidhe
04-12-2013, 12:17 AM
Having gotten a few hours now to mess around with the new enhancements:

Overall: Cut some of the AP costs, or make the bottom row actual autogrants. Actually, just making the bottom row real autogrants would go a long way towards freeing up AP.

Specific Trees:

Deepwood Sniper: This is what I envision a ranger being. I played with it, killed some kobolds, found it enjoyable.

Arcane Archer: Didn't use other than to get an endless supply of archers for the sniper, and picked up corrosive arrows for fun. Needs to have the spell point cost of some of the clickies slashed, as rangers don't get big SP pools.

Tempest: Tons of fun. And interesting synergies are interesting.

Drow Tree: I like it. It has more flavor than the old one, especially with the SLAs, ambidexterity, and improved dodge.

Elf Tree: I also like it. Haven't played with dragonmarks yet, though.

Kensei: Interesting synergies are interesting - I built a 12Ftr/6Ran/2Monk, and was able to dual-wield light blades while remaining centered and using dex for attack and damage in ultimate wind stance. Dodge was ridiculously high. However, again, the core enhancements need to be free! They suck up too many AP.

Stalwart: I don't defend. Didn't use.

Other Races: Without full racial PrEs, honestly, I'm not inspired to look. Honestly, there are other races? I'm hoping that when the pass rolls, we'll get a chance to completely reroll characters, as my stereotypical human sorc makes me sad.

That's the good, and - overall - I like the pass. It'll take total revision of build philosophies for a lot of people, but there's more variety in there than people realize.

Though, and let me put this in bold italics:

CORE ENHANCEMENTS SHOULD BE AUTOGRANTED, NOT COST 2AP EACH!

The new implementation of the monk stances is genius, by the way. But the core enhancements...yeah, those need to be free. That's 8 AP that could go somewhere better.

Now the bad:

Clerics.

What are they I don't even

I'm hoping that what's happened is that you haven't finished all the domains, so every build is "Healing" and "Protection," and we're going to get some fun domains for alternate deities, but the lack of offensive casting options is a Very Bad Thing. The lack of any "smiting" line whatsoever is a Very Bad Thing. Basically, the whole cleric set is Very Very Bad and someone should be feeling Very Very Silly about the entire design, and mayhaps spend a day wearing a hair shirt, smearing their face with ashes in penance for the Cleric Pass.

Flavilandile
04-12-2013, 06:06 AM
we're going to get some fun domains for alternate deities,

At the cost of a feat, in a feat starved class...

Unless the Domains have really good things that comes with it, the feat will have more use elsewhere.

dlsidhe
04-12-2013, 11:50 AM
At the cost of a feat, in a feat starved class...

Unless the Domains have really good things that comes with it, the feat will have more use elsewhere.

I was thinking it was a free bonus feat. If not, then that's just one more thing done wrong with clerics.

Today's test before work -

Dwarf Pure Tempest, Con Based, Dual Axes

1) The core row of the dwarf racial tree is broken; I could not take the third enhancement in it.

2) To repeat; the core row needs to be automatically granted.

3) Points went into racial and tempest trees only; level-ups went into constitution; end result was reasonable AC and a ton of HP (with vet-ship gear on).

4) DPS was...decent. Using the tempest clickies, I could get crits in the upper 100s repeatedly with a pair of Axes of Famine (and vet-ship gear and no ED; with decent gear, in FoTW, that would go up, obviously) and decent attack speed. However, it felt pathetically slow after the 12/6/2 drow tempest kensei monk I built yesterday. While the crits were way bigger on the dwarf, the speed and doublestrike of the DTKM had similar base damage numbers coming in ridiculously fast.

5) The AP squeeze was less apparent on this build, as I only used two trees. If the core was autogranted (at least the ones that aren't the stat-boost multiselector), it would help multiclasses or unique pure builds.

Tonight: Dwarven Stalwart Defender (pure); Warforged Kensei (18F/2Mnk); Human Bastard Battle Engineer (pure, possibly with d-marks)

dlsidhe
04-13-2013, 12:17 PM
Test Session 3:

I'm revising my feelings on the core row as autogrants - the racial tree should have a cost (if only 1AP for non-statboost enhancements) for the core, and then an overhaul of the cost of the tree/points spent requirement to advance. Class trees need a cost overhaul overall, and having the "core" as free autogrants would go a long way towards that.

Dwarven Stalwart Defender

Good


Over 1000HP easily.
Con-to-damage from the racial tree makes for interesting possibilities.
Standing AC was in the 130s with PRR of 70-80. Sweet.


Bad


Damage was mediocre, even with 40+ CON and con-to-damage.
Having to hold a shield for the stance to work is a bad thing (which ties to damage being mediocre).


Fix


Make stalwart stance work without a shield so THF or TWF tanking is possible.
More ways to generate aggro, like an auto-intimidate, more passive hate generation, etc.

dlsidhe
04-13-2013, 12:39 PM
Horc 18/2 Kensei (monk splash, greatswords/falchions)

Crazy damage, but the cutback in seeker shows more on this build than the 12/6/2 Tempest Kensei I made initially. I still like the kensei design, but it needs the current features restored.

'Forged Pure Kensei (BIG AXE)

Eh, a lot like the Horc, but slightly less base damage, with higher bursts. Alacrity made a huge and evident difference.

Human D'Marked Bastard Battle Engineer

Okay.

I am about to say something very, very simple that might be a bit controversial, due to the love for haste boost - Haste boost is not a melee-equivalent to Endless Fusillade. It's simply not. 6 seconds of 90% doublestrike and +1[W]? That would be closer. A single, instantaneous rune-arm shot at max-charge with +75 spellpower? That would be closer. Haste boost should be a bottom-tier, basic ability, not something comparable to a signature PrE clickie. With a high-end repeater fully-enchanted and IPS, Endless Fusillade is 6 seconds of being god. Haste boost is not, however much you buff up your weapon. You do not melee as fast as a repeater fires during EF. You cannot stack enchantments on a melee weapon like on a crossbow (using slaying/bane bolts on top of the bow enchantments). Give melee artis a comparable ability, and put haste boost on the bottom row. Everyone can use haste boost.

Other than that, it was fun. I like artis. AP are still way too tight. I like that Battle Engineer gives a bonus to worn armor and weapons now.

Jay203
04-13-2013, 12:54 PM
i disagree on the core tier being free grants

i do agree the AP costs for the tree needs to be toned down... A LOT

also, the total AP spent in tree should be reserved for the core
the tree should use total AP spent thus far

dlsidhe
04-13-2013, 01:22 PM
i disagree on the core tier being free grants

i do agree the AP costs for the tree needs to be toned down... A LOT

also, the total AP spent in tree should be reserved for the core
the tree should use total AP spent thus far

Unless they add a ton more enhancements, I'm not sure how much they can tone down the AP costs. Making the class core into autogrants would free up 8AP per tree. Also, as we only get 4AP per level, the gate (if any) from tree tier to tree tier should be 4AP, not 5AP. 5AP, with everything being 2AP in cost, means at level 1 you have to be halfway through level 2 to unlock the second tier.

Or, to use Tempest:

First core, free.
4AP for level 1 - 2 in the main tempest line, 2 for in something else
4AP for level 2 - 2 for second core ability, unlock tier 2, 2 AP in the main tempest line.
4AP for level 3 - 2 AP for an optional, unlock tier 3, 2AP for tier 3/core 3 depending

If the core was autogranted, with 4AP as the gate per tier, and 6AP granting the core.

First core, free.
4AP for level 1 - 2 in the main tempest line, 2 in something else, tier 2 unlocked
4AP for level 2 - 2 in the main tempest line, second core is autogranted, 2AP in another tier 2 ability, tier 3 unlocked
4AP for level 3 - 2 in the main tempest line, 2 in an optional, tier 4 unlocked, third core is granted

That assumes spending all your points in the PrE line, of course. If not, it would spread the power out a little more, so you'd end up getting into serious PrE power around level 6, when they normally kick in currently.

dlsidhe
04-13-2013, 11:25 PM
Alright - tonight's test!

12Ftr/6Rgr/2Monk Kensai AA. Used the Elven AA so I could go full capstone.

You know, it's supposed to be broken.

If hitting Adrenaline, Multishot, and Slayer in a row is broken, I agree, because that's 20K damage, and that's Not Even Right.

It's awesome, but it's not right.

I did realize I didn't pick up IPS, but I didn't qualify as I went full Wisdom with Zen Archery. Ah well, it was a mistake.

dlsidhe
04-13-2013, 11:45 PM
Logged in my main (just in case, y'know, FvS trees were visible, and hopefully less broken than cleric), and took a moment to play with the drow innates.

Darkbolt, whatever, hits for 400-500 damage per bolt. It might be useful, actually.