PDA

View Full Version : Undead versus "Holy" Weapons



stefferweffer
04-01-2013, 09:36 AM
I recently started an archer build who just turned level 8, so I gave him the silver longbow (I think that is what it is called). It's the bow that's ML8, damage 1-10, and crit range of 19-20. It also does "Holy" damage of 2-12 on evil enemies, and has a red augment slot too. It worked out especially well because I also took Improved Critical Ranged at level 8.

I asked in general chat if all undead were evil, because I wanted to know if this bow would work well in Delera's tomb. I got mixed answers, and many said that "mindless" enemies like zombies and skeletons are not evil. I went to Delera's anyway and it did seem to damage most of the enemies there.

I just checked on DDO wiki though, and zombies and skeletons are shown as some form of Evil. Is the Wiki incorrect?

On a side note, it looks like Holy seems to be pretty good for moste enemies in the game, if Wiki is correct. Wiki lists 1347 enemies as Evil, 73 as neutral, and I think less than a 10 as good (mostly unique enemies). So it's looking like Holy is a good weapon choice. Do you agree?

Thanks again for your help/advice.

droid327
04-01-2013, 10:07 AM
Yeah Holy is a great prefix, probably the best at low levels until you start getting compound suffixes. Undead are all Evil, and most are Chaotic Evil at that. The more advanced ones like Vampires are Lawful Evil, but Holy still works on that. Holy of Pure Good is the most versatile low-level crafted weapon.

The main Neutral mobs you're going to run into at low levels are Constructs (iron defenders, etc.), Animals (wolves, bats, scorpions, rats, etc.) and Elementals. Holy and Pure Good wont work on them, but Elemental damage will and Bleeding (ie the Lacerating suffix, or the Bleed crafted suffix) will work on everything except Elementals (which was recently fixed) and Undead.

A Holy of Pure Good bow and a Screaming of Bleed (or *Element* of Lacerating, if you can find it) bow will get you a long ways in the early game.

Plus, you can always just check yourself. The Holy damage component will show on the fly-over text as a number (2 to 12) next to a little yellow star-looking symbol. If a mob isnt Evil, the flyover text will say "Immune" every time you hit instead.

Paleus
04-01-2013, 11:22 AM
On top of this, holy provides good dr, and the ghostly skeletons you faced in Deleras require good dr. Mostly this episode provides a good reason to be judicious about what general chat advice you listen to and promote just going straight to the wikis in some cases.

Overall, yes holy is going to be a useful weapon prefix for the game, though as you level you may find better ones. That said, the bow you have is one of the premier bows for your level range and stays competitive for quite a while.

FuzzyDuck81
04-01-2013, 11:26 AM
Undead are all Evil, and most are Chaotic Evil at that

Almost all undead are evil :) there's a certain ghostly beholder that isn't :D But yeah, holy is a reliable effect against the majority of enemies you'll face.

Bogenbroom
04-01-2013, 11:35 AM
Yeah Holy is a great prefix, probably the best at low levels until you start getting compound suffixes. Undead are all Evil, and most are Chaotic Evil at that. The more advanced ones like Vampires are Lawful Evil, but Holy still works on that. Holy of Pure Good is the most versatile low-level crafted weapon.

The main Neutral mobs you're going to run into at low levels are Constructs (iron defenders, etc.), Animals (wolves, bats, scorpions, rats, etc.) and Elementals. Holy and Pure Good wont work on them, but Elemental damage will and Bleeding (ie the Lacerating suffix, or the Bleed crafted suffix) will work on everything except Elementals (which was recently fixed) and Undead.



Some clarification here... pure good works on almost everything. The only things it doesn't work on are actual good creatures (Eladrin) and Golems, which are immune to alignment based damage, and maybe a couple of odds and ends. It *will* work on elementals and animals.

Because neutral creatures are so prevalent in the game, I do not like to use holy as a generic garbage beater. It is great in some places, but I find it to be a secondary option. I will tend to want an Acid of PG as my primary as that tends to be the most universal. Adamantine if it can be found. Lower damage, but more universally functional. My opinion only.

Wipey
04-01-2013, 11:48 AM
On top of this, holy provides good dr, and the ghostly skeletons you faced in Deleras require good dr. Mostly this episode provides a good reason to be judicious about what general chat advice you listen to and promote just going straight to the wikis in some cases.

Overall, yes holy is going to be a useful weapon prefix for the game, though as you level you may find better ones. That said, the bow you have is one of the premier bows for your level range and stays competitive for quite a while.
No sane person is going to use archery in Delera. Archers and other mobs take a while to kill on twinked cleaving melee with PA and holy maul, ranging skellies at low levels is exercise in futility.

While the bow looks okay, even with manyshot ( which is not good until 3 arrows anyway ) , Carnifex, Holy Maul with PA is MUCH more effective even on twf toon without ANY thf feats.

stefferweffer
04-01-2013, 12:03 PM
Why is Carnifex better? You can't crit on undead, can you?

This character does not have Power Attack or Cleave, and I don't have the plat to buy a couple Sun Blades yet (when they are even on the AH). Again, new player here :) Disruption Weapons are all higher than level 8. The bow did great against the undead casters, which were my biggest worries anyway, and killed them in one shot usually. One thing I could have done was buy some undead guard armor, but I only thought about that afterward, and would lose my fortification if I did that anyway, which might not be a good trade-off.

Anyway, it was not a big deal. Took a little over an hour for the whole chain, so I could get my "Voice".

Thank you all for clearing this up for me.

Wipey
04-01-2013, 12:23 PM
Why is Carnifex better? You can't crit on undead, can you?
You can with high enough fort reduction ( black scale, improved sunder, precision and such ) but of course not at low levels.

Commented on ranged ( and twf ) versus thf melee efficiency at low-mid level in general. Manyshot with 2 arrows doesn't make a difference, no improved precise shot, low wisdom ( you will see difference at maybe 30 wisdom ) for 10k stars to be worth using too.
Twf wouldn't have greater two weapon fighting yet, thf is stronger until you get it.

Even monks, rogues are better with two hander at low levels.
Carnifex is stupidly good weapon. Holy maul ( or staff is you dont have martial profficiency ) is much better for any undead quest.
It might not suit someone who wants to "play twf or ranged from the start", it's just the way it is (un)fortunately .

droid327
04-01-2013, 12:46 PM
THF is generally universally better at low levels - even without any feats such as PA - because the higher base die for things like Greataxe is going to outweigh the small benefit of any individual feats like TWF, or the slower base attack rate for Bows at low BAB, even with PBS and its +1[W]. Plus any Archer other than an Arti or Mechanic is going to pump STR anyway for Bow Strength, so you'll have a positive STR bonus, and get 1.5x benefit with THF.

Thats not to say you cant still use bows to pull, or to counter-range, but in terms of DPS, once the monsters are in melee range you're much better off with a Holy Maul for most Undead....faster attack rate means more Holy procs, and Bludgeon damage breaks the DR of skeletons, the most common Undead type at low levels.

Rusty_Can
04-01-2013, 01:38 PM
Disruption Weapons are all higher than level 8.

Technically, a +1 RR (Race Required) weapon of Disruption would be lvl 8.

If you have access to crafted weapons, a +1 Holy <insert weapon> of Undead Bane would be lvl 9; using a shard of Masterful Craftmanship, lvl 7.

stefferweffer
04-01-2013, 02:11 PM
So when does something like Carnifex STOP becoming better than Archery? As a half-elf arcane archer at level 8 I can summon returning + 1 arrows, and deal extra force damage with each, in additional to the silver longbow (d10 + 3 + red augment + holy) critting on 17-20 for x 3 damage. Point Blank Shot does +1W damage in close proximity. Like I said, I don't have Power Attack or Cleave, but I am 6 ranger so I have Improved TWF (which doesn't seem to be any better than the bow).

I don't see much changing over the next several levels, other than arcane archer enhancements to specific elemental arrow damage.

So at what point does an archer build put away the Carnifex and start using his bow almost exclusively? I'm in Sorrowdusk right now with him, and the enemies are dropping REALLY fast with the bow, and I don't have to engage in melee hardly at all, which helps keep me alive.

Thanks again for the advice.

Ryiah
04-01-2013, 02:18 PM
I don't have the plat to buy a couple Sun Blades yet (when they are even on the AH).

You could try actually farming the blades. They drop from a rare called Garamol in the Subterrane. Basically go east until you reach a door, make it past that and you'll see some floating symbol signs. On the signs, offset a bit from the rest of the characters, will be a symbol that looks roughly like a "G". Just follow those to reach the entrance portal to the rare. Dropping down you'll run into a lot of traps so you'll want to remove any feather fall item you have equipped and also stay off the gold piles until the skeletons and the "rare" (he is guaranteed) are killed.

Gadget2775
04-01-2013, 02:38 PM
At your level ranged is fine. THW for the first couple levels, then Ranged or TWF after 6/7 depending on build.

However, one of the things to watch for is DPS loss due to DR. Almost all bows in the game are piercing. Skeletal mobs require blunt (the ghostly skeles in Delaras also need good). Think zombies need slash, etc.... Not usually a big deal on norm, but the loss from DR jumps on hard and elite.

The only (off topic-ish) thing I'd add to that is if you're running with others its very irritating for melee to hit mobs if you're kiting them. I personally won't chase kited mobs hoping to hit them anymore. Doesn't meant don't kite at all, just stop long enough for the beaters to peel one or two off :)

Matuse
04-01-2013, 03:02 PM
No sane person is going to use archery in Delera. Archers and other mobs take a while to kill on twinked cleaving melee with PA and holy maul, ranging skellies at low levels is exercise in futility.

Bows are not super effective against the skeleton arcuses, but the Silver Longbow works just fine vs ghostly skeletons. They don't have the /blunt DR that most skeletons do, it's only /Good.


Undead are all Evil, and most are Chaotic Evil at that.

Almost all. There is one undead monster (who appears in two quests) who is Lawful Good.

And no, most are not Chaotic. Zombies and skeletons (who make up the VAST majority of opponents) are Neutral Evil. On the Lawful Evil side are Doomspheres, Spectres, Mummies, Wraiths, Quells, Wheeps, and Wights. Actually Chaotic Evil undead are in the huge minority. Chaotic Evil are vampires (most, there are some who are lawful), shadows, ghasts, and ghouls.

stefferweffer
04-01-2013, 03:07 PM
I've heard the phrase "Kiting", but I should make sure I know what it is before commenting on it. If it refers to a kite on a string, then a ranged character (caster or archer) keeps moving around/away from the mobs so that they never catch/hit them? Is that what "Kiting" is? If so, then I don't do this in a group, because you are correct that its not fun/efficient for the melees to be chasing the train. I only do this rarely even when soloing, since I want to stay close for PBS to do its thing.

So I assume it is OK for a ranged character in a group to stand in one place and fire at mobs, but they should wait until the melee has the enemies on them first? Or is it OK for the ranged character to "pull" a mob from further away if they are confident that they can kill it quickly?

Thanks for helping me understand group "etiquette".

AbyssalMage
04-01-2013, 03:27 PM
So when does something like Carnifex STOP becoming better than Archery? As a half-elf arcane archer at level 8 I can summon returning + 1 arrows, and deal extra force damage with each, in additional to the silver longbow (d10 + 3 + red augment + holy) critting on 17-20 for x 3 damage. Point Blank Shot does +1W damage in close proximity. Like I said, I don't have Power Attack or Cleave, but I am 6 ranger so I have Improved TWF (which doesn't seem to be any better than the bow).

I don't see much changing over the next several levels, other than arcane archer enhancements to specific elemental arrow damage.

So at what point does an archer build put away the Carnifex and start using his bow almost exclusively? I'm in Sorrowdusk right now with him, and the enemies are dropping REALLY fast with the bow, and I don't have to engage in melee hardly at all, which helps keep me alive.

Thanks again for the advice.

From memory (there is also a post somewhere on these forums)...

2HF > until lvl 12 (+/- 2 levels) for all characters capable of martial melee. Even if you dump STR, I believe 2HF is better up until 8 or 9.

As far as when does Bow > 2HF (or Carnifex) I couldn't tell you, but would reason its around the above mentioned lvl 12 range and dependent on gear.

Also remember, you can always soften things up with a bow while they are running towards you before you have to engage in melee. Melee just means they die faster. But if they die before they get to you, so much the better.

Kinerd
04-01-2013, 03:56 PM
While 1347/73/10 overstates it a bit, Holy is still a fine generic trash choice as many, many trash enemies are Evil and quite a few have DR x/Good.

Neutral enemies tend to fall into five categories: elementals (use a banisher), constructs (use a smiter or GCon bane), animals (piddly HP totals), mephits (>:[ mephits), The Stormreaver. It is impossible to make a weapon that is useful against literally all of these, so IMO it makes no sense to take them into consideration when making your overall generic weapon.

Kinerd
04-01-2013, 04:03 PM
I've heard the phrase "Kiting", but I should make sure I know what it is before commenting on it. If it refers to a kite on a string, then a ranged character (caster or archer) keeps moving around/away from the mobs so that they never catch/hit them? Is that what "Kiting" is? If so, then I don't do this in a group, because you are correct that its not fun/efficient for the melees to be chasing the train. I only do this rarely even when soloing, since I want to stay close for PBS to do its thing.

So I assume it is OK for a ranged character in a group to stand in one place and fire at mobs, but they should wait until the melee has the enemies on them first? Or is it OK for the ranged character to "pull" a mob from further away if they are confident that they can kill it quickly?

Thanks for helping me understand group "etiquette".It's tricky. You might think "okay I will ranged it, aggro it over to where the melees are, stand still and let everyone beat on it for great justice", but it turns out that where you think everyone is is neither where they think they are nor where the server thinks they are, so it's all off to Dolurrh. In terms of annoying the group, you should never aggro anything as a ranged user (even when not kiting!), sad but true. With that said, standing your ground and bringing things to the melee kill zone minimizes this annoyance while still letting you shoot things, so groups should be tolerant of it. (Whether they will be or not, only the Shadow knows.)

The other thing is that a ranged damage pull pulls the entire group of monsters, which can make for rather nasty encounters. In a facerolling group, no big deal. In a group that requires caution, big deal. This is made especially tricky with Precise Shot and IPS and long hallways.

Bottom line, if you're not kiting the frustrations are small and manageable.

droid327
04-01-2013, 04:10 PM
So when does something like Carnifex STOP becoming better than Archery? As a half-elf arcane archer at level 8 I can summon returning + 1 arrows, and deal extra force damage with each, in additional to the silver longbow (d10 + 3 + red augment + holy) critting on 17-20 for x 3 damage. Point Blank Shot does +1W damage in close proximity. Like I said, I don't have Power Attack or Cleave, but I am 6 ranger so I have Improved TWF (which doesn't seem to be any better than the bow).

I don't see much changing over the next several levels, other than arcane archer enhancements to specific elemental arrow damage.

So at what point does an archer build put away the Carnifex and start using his bow almost exclusively? I'm in Sorrowdusk right now with him, and the enemies are dropping REALLY fast with the bow, and I don't have to engage in melee hardly at all, which helps keep me alive.

Thanks again for the advice.

Well if you have ITWF already, you might get better results dual wielding Holy ____ of Pure Good in melee. Scimitars for general use, or Holy Warhammers of Undead Bane for Undead quests. With 40% offhand chance, you'll be scoring a lot of strikes to proc your prefix and suffix. If you can kill them before they close to melee, of course, then do that, but if you're going to be in melee more than 2-3 rounds, swap to melee weapons.

But as to when ranged>melee at all distances, usually the "milestones" that push Ranged into favor are: BAB 11, for 3 arrows on Manyshot; IC: Ranged; and whenever you can get a good bow, which for most people means a Greensteel bow at (I think) L14, or maybe something like Unwavering Ardency or Tortured Livewood Bow, if you can get it. Sadly the Cannith Challenge bow doesnt really compare to its Khopesh, Rapier, and Greataxe counterparts. The big thing is going to be bows with more than 1[1d8] damage die, since that's when things like PBS and Bow Strength are going to really kick into gear.

That being said, since you're a Ranger and will get GTWF free, the numbers might always suggest switching to TWF in melee range even without taking Tempest or any melee feats, assuming you have melee weapons of similar quality to your bows.

There are, unfortunately for archers, a great many more awesome melee selections than bow selections, especially before L16-18-20. For some unfathomable reason, they love to make named bows with debuff effects and non-stacking DOTs like Acid Arrow...which makes them excellent for a few shots, while the monster is still at range, before switching to melee for more pure damage, while the DOTs tick and the debuffs weaken your target, but you get very little benefit from staying with Ranged and just reapplying DOTs and debuffs...

danotmano1998
04-01-2013, 04:28 PM
I've heard the phrase "Kiting", but I should make sure I know what it is before commenting on it. If it refers to a kite on a string, then a ranged character (caster or archer) keeps moving around/away from the mobs so that they never catch/hit them? Is that what "Kiting" is? If so, then I don't do this in a group, because you are correct that its not fun/efficient for the melees to be chasing the train. I only do this rarely even when soloing, since I want to stay close for PBS to do its thing.

So I assume it is OK for a ranged character in a group to stand in one place and fire at mobs, but they should wait until the melee has the enemies on them first? Or is it OK for the ranged character to "pull" a mob from further away if they are confident that they can kill it quickly?

Thanks for helping me understand group "etiquette".

Your definition of kiting is correct.

The ettiquette entirely depends on a group with one caveat..
Be mindful of others.

If you can kite a particularly nasty enemy away from the group and stay alive until they can deal with the trash, that's "good" kiting.

If you can pull a group of monsters away from a party that is having trouble and keep them busy until they can pull one or two at a time away, that could be "good" kiting.

If you grab an enemy that is pounding on someone not able to survive the aggro and keep it busy kiting until the group gets a handle on things, that's "good" kiting.

If you consistently grab aggo you can't handle and run around like a chicken with your head cut off while the rest of the party tries to save you, that's "bad" kiting.

If you run into another group of monsters and pull them into the fray while running about causing mass chaos and panic, that's "bad" kiting.


Basic rule of thumb I try to follow: Feel out the party's strengths and weaknesses.
If they are killing everything before it has a chance to become a problem, kiting won't be an issue much. If you are in a party that is using tactics and going slow, don't kite unless it's asked for.

What to do when you have the aggro of a monster that will surely kill you if you stand still:
1. Stay close to the party and kite in a circle, so that others can take shots at it, but not close enough that they can wipe the party accidentally with cleaves.
2. If melee's are running after said monster, lead it back and forth across their line of fire, and DON'T keep shooting it. If they are worth their salt, the aggro will swap at some point and you can stop running. If you can, STAND STILL and let them do their job.
3. If you see any friendly AOE's (Area of effect) spells like firewall, danceball, ice storm, etc.. LEAD the monster through them. If you can, pull out a shield and block while you're standing in one. Pull out potions and scrolls to keep yourself up until the bad guy is someone else's problem.
4. Let yourself die sometimes.
Yeah, sounds like a bad decision, but in some cases this is the easiest way to shed unmanageable aggro and it'll be more cost effective to just raise you once things are under control.

In other words, BE A TEAM PLAYER.
This is the root of "social ettiquete" in DDO. Watch how others do things and learn from it if you can. Be mindful of what the group leader is trying to accomplish, and try to play along with their style even if it's not your normal routine. Sometimes you learn how to do things better, sometimes you learn how NOT to do things. Either way, you gain experience which is the best way to learn DDO. By playing it.

Postumus
04-01-2013, 05:24 PM
In terms of annoying the group, you should never aggro anything as a ranged user (even when not kiting!), sad but true.


80% of rangers and 95% of artificers would likely disagree with that statement. Maybe in the VERY narrow context of 'epic elite' quests what you say might have merit, but in the 95% of the game where everyone else plays, the ranged character (be it a ranger or arti) who doesn't engage from long range is wasting his one of his best assets: range.


OP, if your damage output is adequate, you will kill most things you engage from long distance. If your PC can support it, turn up your draw distance to max and you will be killing things before they even get half-way to your party. Obviously you need to pick and choose what you engage, and a general rule of thumb is don't pull it if you can't kill it.

droid327
04-01-2013, 08:13 PM
80% of rangers and 95% of artificers would likely disagree with that statement. Maybe in the VERY narrow context of 'epic elite' quests what you say might have merit, but in the 95% of the game where everyone else plays, the ranged character (be it a ranger or arti) who doesn't engage from long range is wasting his one of his best assets: range.



Counterpoint: if you're going to establish initial aggro every time, then you're forcing your tank to waste his one best asset: his tankiness. If you're just running a faceroll DPS group then yeah, blast away...but if you have a dedicated tank, someone whose DPS isnt that great but who allows his groupmates to blast away with impunity, then it makes more sense to let him dictate the flow of combat.

If he's comfortable snagging aggro with an Intimidate once the mobs are in range, thats fine - but dont just assume that, since you're ranged and he's a tank, he's going to clean up aggro from whatever you pull. You can still take advantage of your range (ie, not be in AOE distance from the melee mobs) even if you're not always taking the first shot.

I bet 95% of artificers would rather wait a couple rounds and let the tank set initial aggro, so they can just stand still and blast with their runearms on auto, rather than having to kite around and not be able to get up to charge tier 5...

EllisDee37
04-01-2013, 09:37 PM
The best generic afix combo is screaming of pure good, at least in terms of leveling. Both hurt just about everything.

Silver longbow is great, and most mobs of consequence are evil. Generally speaking, most of the neutral mobs are in explorer areas, which is essentially "normal" difficulty. (Maybe even casual.)

However, some high level packs are thick with neutral non-constructs who don't bleed and aren't extraplanar, which is annoying in terms of weapon selection. (Vine horrors abound in druid's deep and high road.) But that's not relevant to the silver longbow question.

In terms of group etiquette, pick and kill one mob at a time. Preferably a caster or archer -- casters first! -- who won't come running and thus there will be no kiting issues. And they aren't usually in the thick of melee combat anyway. Even if you pick a melee mob, it's fine. You kill yours, while melee kill something else. Everybody wins.

Bacab
04-01-2013, 09:43 PM
gonna keep it short...

Skeletons have DR/Blunt.

Most Zombies have DR/Slash.

You may have not done damage since you were doing piercing dmg.

Gremmlynn
04-03-2013, 05:44 PM
No sane person is going to use archery in Delera. Archers and other mobs take a while to kill on twinked cleaving melee with PA and holy maul, ranging skellies at low levels is exercise in futility.

While the bow looks okay, even with manyshot ( which is not good until 3 arrows anyway ) , Carnifex, Holy Maul with PA is MUCH more effective even on twf toon without ANY thf feats.An ML8 RR +1 disrupter would work well, or a holy of undead bane on just about any weapon.

Gremmlynn
04-03-2013, 05:53 PM
However, one of the things to watch for is DPS loss due to DR. Almost all bows in the game are piercing. Skeletal mobs require blunt (the ghostly skeles in Delaras also need good). Actually, the ghostlys don't have DR/blunt, just good.

Karavek
04-03-2013, 06:12 PM
Why is Carnifex better? You can't crit on undead, can you?

This character does not have Power Attack or Cleave, and I don't have the plat to buy a couple Sun Blades yet (when they are even on the AH). Again, new player here :) Disruption Weapons are all higher than level 8. The bow did great against the undead casters, which were my biggest worries anyway, and killed them in one shot usually. One thing I could have done was buy some undead guard armor, but I only thought about that afterward, and would lose my fortification if I did that anyway, which might not be a good trade-off.

Anyway, it was not a big deal. Took a little over an hour for the whole chain, so I could get my "Voice".

Thank you all for clearing this up for me.

Actually a +1 of disruption with a racial pre req is exactly lvl 8 min and although that sounds rare is really not. I picked up mine on the ah years ago for a song when things where much rarer then they are today. I promise you get up some decent goods and go to your server trade forum with a request for a twink disruptor for a TR etc will get you a response if you cant find them in game on the AH.

it helps if you have umd so the actual req is ignorable mine is for example a rapier for warforged but i use it on elves and it always leads to higher kill counts in the deleras series then the best DPS barbs trying.

The silver bow is not an undead fighting bow its a crit masters bow for the living. Its capable of some high crit blows if u can get a good seeker bonus on an item.

For undead you wouldnt want to waste time with a bow until high lvls unless u have a nice disruptor or greater bane one. Sunblades are nice but not the end all be all. Any good holy or acid slasher with pg will do just fine in mid range undead content until you can find a disruptor.

In the end its always about aquiring the lowest lvl possible weapon with isnta kill effects then at high end finding that combined with DR breaking and extra dmg effects. For example a banishing silver or cold iron weapon of greater good is a potent end game outside beater rivalling any raid weapon for its purpose.

FuzzyDuck81
04-04-2013, 02:06 AM
If you can get hold of one, the greatbow of the scrag from 3 barrel cove is a good lowbie anti-skellie bow since it also does blunt damage - pair it with crafted +1 holy arrows (crafting level 20, easy to make) & pewpew away at skellies as much as you like :D

SirValentine
04-04-2013, 07:17 AM
If you have access to crafted weapons, a +1 Holy <insert weapon> of Undead Bane would be lvl 9; using a shard of Masterful Craftmanship, lvl 7.


If you skip the +1, you can have just a Holy of Undead Bane at level 5 (or 7 with out Masterful).

SirValentine
04-04-2013, 07:19 AM
I asked in general chat if all undead were evil, because I wanted to know if this bow would work well in Delera's tomb. I got mixed answers, and many said that "mindless" enemies like zombies and skeletons are not evil.


I don't know off-hand if DDO technically considers mindless undead as having an Evil alignment (they are Neutral in P&P), but either way they should still take Holy damage, because, regardless of being Neutral, they are still animated by Evil negative energy.

Mastikator
04-04-2013, 07:50 AM
I don't know off-hand if DDO technically considers mindless undead as having an Evil alignment (they are Neutral in P&P), but either way they should still take Holy damage, because, regardless of being Neutral, they are still animated by Evil negative energy.
It's not the negative energy that's evil, it's the mindless evil spirit that animates them that's evil. Just like golems are animated by elemental spirits and powered by elemental energy, mindless undead are animated by evil spirits and powered by negative energy.
Says so in Libris Mortis (D&D undead canon!).
It's why Create Undead has the [evil] tag on it, but Inflict Wounds doesn't.

Khatzhas
04-04-2013, 08:19 AM
If you skip the +1, you can have just a Holy of Undead Bane at level 5 (or 7 with out Masterful).Bear in mind that such a weapon will be unable to hurt incorporeal undead. If you also carry around a Ghost Touch weapon, its not a problem. If you don't have one (or don't want to use up the extra space for not a lot of gain at low levels) then you may want to put a +1 on there to give you magic damage in order to hurt them at least 50% of the time.

DDO seems to follow its P&P rules base in that even mindless undead are Evil, and thus affected by Holy weapons.

Gadget2775
04-04-2013, 12:14 PM
Side note since folks have brought up adding +1 this and that. As an archer only one of the items needs a + bonus. IE if you have a +3 Holy Bow, then all arrows fired by that bow are counted as +3. Simlarly if you find a +have several +0 to +2 bows, but use +3 arrows everything you shoot is tagged with the +3 modifer.

If you have access to crafting, you could then craft a Ghost Touch of Incorpreal Bane (no +), and some + 1-3 Holy arrows to go with it. This combination would essentially provide you with a +1-3 Holy, Ghost Touched of Incorpreal Bane bow.

(Incorpreal bane has a lower min level than undead bane, which is why I suggest it)

Gadget2775
04-04-2013, 12:16 PM
Actually, the ghostlys don't have DR/blunt, just good.

Color me surprised. And t/y, will make a mental note of that :)

Sarzor
04-04-2013, 12:49 PM
Technically, a +1 RR (Race Required) weapon of Disruption would be lvl 8.

If you have access to crafted weapons, a +1 Holy <insert weapon> of Undead Bane would be lvl 9; using a shard of Masterful Craftmanship, lvl 7.

If you want to craft something cheaper, I tend to do +1 holy maul of lesser undead bane.

The advantages are that you don't need a soul gem:undead which regular undead bane does, as well as it breaks DR of almost everything. The +1 breaks wraith DR, holy everything in delera's, etc. It's also ML:7 so it works well for the lower necropolis quests. Great for new players as the highest shard level is 37 (divine).

EllisDee37
04-04-2013, 03:01 PM
If you want to craft something cheaper, I tend to do +1 holy maul of lesser undead bane.

The advantages are that you don't need a soul gem:undead which regular undead bane does, as well as it breaks DR of almost everything. The +1 breaks wraith DR, holy everything in delera's, etc. It's also ML:7 so it works well for the lower necropolis quests. Great for new players as the highest shard level is 37 (divine).It will miss 50% of the time against incorporeal though.

I prefer +1 Ghost Touch Flametouched Iron Maul of Undead Bane, ML7.

Sarzor
04-04-2013, 03:17 PM
It will miss 50% of the time against incorporeal though.

I prefer +1 Ghost Touch Flametouched Iron Maul of Undead Bane, ML7.

Well, yeah, but there are so few wraiths in the chain it's not a big deal, plus the dps output is so much lower for most of the chain. I think Delera's 1 has something like 3-4 wraiths, in 2 and 3 you can skip them all except delera herself and the optional one in part 2, and I don't think 4 has any. Necro1 isn't heavy on wraiths either. For that reason I tend to have a cheap ghost touch weapon for the few wraiths and have a higher dps for the other 99% of the enemies in the chain.

That being said, Undead bane is an expensive shard since you need the soul gem. The weapon itself is really only used for 2 chains, and over the course of 3-4 levels. If you TR, which would allow you to use it again, it takes up a slot in the TR bank so it's easier to crunch and re-craft. If you don't TR, it's still useless after about level 10, and you'd either need to recraft it, or more likely just get a much better weapon.

(Not argueing, just providing rationale, however convoluted it may be, of why I use a particular weapon)

SirValentine
04-04-2013, 04:00 PM
Bear in mind that such a weapon will be unable to hurt incorporeal undead.
<snip>
you may want to put a +1 on there to give you magic damage in order to hurt them at least 50% of the time.


Actually, I don't think that's true. The +1 doesn't seem to make a difference in DDO. My +0 hits them (50% of the time) just fine.



(or don't want to use up the extra space for not a lot of gain at low levels)


Up to level 6, I don't worry about Ghost Touch. I just use the Holy Undead Bane starting at level 5. At level 7, crafted Ghost Touch of Greater Incorporeal Bane is nice. (Or at level 8, the Phase Hammer for the same.) Especially for Phase Spiders, which don't take Holy or Undead Bane damage.

EllisDee37
04-04-2013, 04:38 PM
Actually, I don't think that's true. The +1 doesn't seem to make a difference in DDO. My +0 hits them (50% of the time) just fine.I got yellow numbers last time I swung a +0 weapon at a wraith. Could you get a screenshot?

SirValentine
04-05-2013, 04:15 AM
I got yellow numbers last time I swung a +0 weapon at a wraith. Could you get a screenshot?

I knew I was killing wraiths with it in Delera's recently, without paying too much attention to the details. But I just ran another quest with wraiths. The base damage is indeed yellow zeros, but I'm getting the Holy and Bane damage. So maybe a +1 lets you get base damage, didn't try that, but lack of it certainly isn't a case of "unable to hurt" at all.

FuzzyDuck81
04-05-2013, 04:46 AM
I knew I was killing wraiths with it in Delera's recently, without paying too much attention to the details. But I just ran another quest with wraiths. The base damage is indeed yellow zeros, but I'm getting the Holy and Bane damage. So maybe a +1 lets you get base damage, didn't try that, but lack of it certainly isn't a case of "unable to hurt" at all.

IIRC wraiths have some /magic DR - the +1 lets you get past that.

Gremmlynn
04-05-2013, 09:10 AM
Bear in mind that such a weapon will be unable to hurt incorporeal undead. If you also carry around a Ghost Touch weapon, its not a problem. If you don't have one (or don't want to use up the extra space for not a lot of gain at low levels) then you may want to put a +1 on there to give you magic damage in order to hurt them at least 50% of the time.Oh, you'll be able to hurt them, just not well as most seem to have DR/magic that you need to put a "+" on to break. Though, yes one should also carry a ghost touch weapon, with a DR breaking + at that.

Sarzor
04-05-2013, 01:57 PM
Oh, you'll be able to hurt them, just not well as most seem to have DR/magic that you need to put a "+" on to break. Though, yes one should also carry a ghost touch weapon, with a DR breaking + at that.

Wraiths at low levels have much lower hp than everything around them, so I tend to break out the Carnifex for the wraiths and eat the 50% miss. They're very fast to kill. Not necessary best way, but hey, I'm lazy and I like simplicity.