PDA

View Full Version : Bonus SP & class splashing?



Antheal
03-19-2013, 02:36 AM
How much Spell Point difference would there be between a level 20 Cleric and an 18 Cleric who has splashed one level of both Favoured Soul and Sorcerer?

psykopeta
03-19-2013, 03:38 AM
the clr with sorc/fvs lvls will have aprox 160 more sp, and those 2 lvls will give you more benefit from items that give extra SP (those 2 classes get double sp from items)

btw, i wouldn't ever take 1 fvs lvl with a clr, sorc or wiz is ok(imho wiz is better because you get 1 metamagic feat) but fvs? can't understand why, i would rather taking 1 fighter lvl (if you are looking for some weapon proficiency with the fvs lvl) that would grant me proficiency with tower shields, all non-exotic weapons and 1 martial feat

this way you will have almost same sp than with a pure clr, will have access to elemental enhancements(40 spellpower for 1 AP is a nice deal) and 2 extra feats

that's my opinion

Uska
03-19-2013, 04:09 AM
the clr with sorc/fvs lvls will have aprox 160 more sp, and those 2 lvls will give you more benefit from items that give extra SP (those 2 classes get double sp from items)

btw, i wouldn't ever take 1 fvs lvl with a clr, sorc or wiz is ok(imho wiz is better because you get 1 metamagic feat) but fvs? can't understand why, i would rather taking 1 fighter lvl (if you are looking for some weapon proficiency with the fvs lvl) that would grant me proficiency with tower shields, all non-exotic weapons and 1 martial feat

this way you will have almost same sp than with a pure clr, will have access to elemental enhancements(40 spellpower for 1 AP is a nice deal) and 2 extra feats

that's my opinion

Those two classes only get double from sp items if they are pure class he will get about 5% extra for the one lvl of each class I think he would be better off as a pure cleric over splashing 1 fvs and 1 sorc he will lose some spell slots to gain some useless low level spell slots he will also lose access to cleric capstone and some dc on his cleric spells

FuzzyDuck81
03-19-2013, 04:42 AM
It wouldnt be all that great a boost & IMO the favoured soul level would be a waste, though 18cleric/1sorc/1fighter could work.

The sorcerer level means you'd get a small number of extra SP from having CHA granting SP as well as 5% more from any SP items (not sure of exact numbers since you'd lose out on 1 caster level worth overall with that split), arcane wand proficiency which could be useful for some buffs like blur, stoneskin etc. & iirc you'd be able to take 1 tier of force enhancement which will boost your damage from bladebarriers.

Fighter level would mean you can take 1 tier of class-based toughness enhancement & you'd get weapon plus tower shield proficiencies plus a bonus martial feat too, so you could take, say, shield mastery & use a tower shield to boost durability a bit.

Wizard instead of sorcerer would mean a bonus metamagic & the proficiencies, but you wouldn't be able to take the force enhancement & would have less SP vs. the sorcerer one.

Antheal
03-19-2013, 05:40 AM
Well I can get 10 extra HP from Favoured Soul Toughness, and as much extra SP as taking a free Mental Toughness feat, right?

Taking Master's Touch as a Sorcerer will give me proficiency in all martial weapons and Tower Shields too, along with another Mental Toughness' worth of extra SP.

ReaperAlexEU
03-19-2013, 06:01 AM
Well I can get 10 extra HP from Favoured Soul Toughness, and as much extra SP as taking a free Mental Toughness feat, right?

Taking Master's Touch as a Sorcerer will give me proficiency in all martial weapons and Tower Shields too, along with another Mental Toughness' worth of extra SP.

the masters touch will be subject to arcane spell failure from your heavy armour and shield. not a massive problem as you can just try a few times at the quest entrance, but probably something better left to scrolling and UMD would be easy to get up and running for that.

edit: as EllisDee37 points out below masters touch is one of the arcane spells that is not subject to arcane spell failure. incidentally neither is teleport, though greater heroism is.

EllisDee37
03-19-2013, 07:37 AM
Wizard [...] would mean [...] you wouldn't be able to take the force enhancementYes you can. Wizard Force Manipulation I requires two character levels, but only one of them has to be wizard.


the masters touch will be subject to arcane spell failure from your heavy armour and shield. not a massive problem as you can just try a few times at the quest entrance, but probably something better left to scrolling and UMD would be easy to get up and running for that.Scrolls are subject to the same ASF as casting the spell, annoyingly enough. However, Master's Touch is not subject to ASF either by spell or scroll because it has no somatic component.

Also, for obvious reasons you cannot scroll Master's Touch for THF weapons. (And I imagine it would be a majorly annoying hassle to scroll it for a pair of TWF weapons or for a weapon and tower shield.)

If it's just for a tower shield, then yeah, scrolling works as well as the spell.

cru121
03-19-2013, 07:53 AM
look also at druid (stacking devotion, toughness) or artificer (umd..)

Moltier
03-19-2013, 08:10 AM
How much Spell Point difference would there be between a level 20 Cleric and an 18 Cleric who has splashed one level of both Favoured Soul and Sorcerer?

I do not know how much you would gain, but usually it doesnt worth it just for SP.
A few things to consider:

Both the FvS and Sorc gain extra mana from charisma. But as far as i know, not together (need testing). They also get some extra base mana that stack of course.

SP from items wouldnt double. You would gain +5% class level (FvS or Sorc).

The extra mana might worth less then the -2 caster levels on your spells. If you heal for less, then you may need more SP. Same applies to your blade barriers, etc.

But if you really want the extra mana, and have some extra INT, even a wizard splash can work, as they gain extra mana from another source. And you would get a free feat (mental toughness).

RedHost
03-19-2013, 09:02 AM
the clr with sorc/fvs lvls will have aprox 160 more sp, and those 2 lvls will give you more benefit from items that give extra SP (those 2 classes get double sp from items)
160 more SP sounds about right. I wouldn't swear to it exactly, but form my own experience it is very close to this. And then a bonus based on your Charisma score as well. Worth noting that you will only get this CHA bonus once, even with two CHA caster classes.

The part about double SP from items is totally false. It is reduced to a percentage of your class level in those classes, so an 18clr/1sorc/1fvs will get a 10% bonus to their SP from items. I do not know what that translates to as a 18clr/1sorc/1fvs/4 epic commoner.


btw, i wouldn't ever take 1 fvs lvl with a clr,
I tend to agree with this, but it is your character. Do what you want.


sorc or wiz is ok(imho wiz is better because you get 1 metamagic feat)
*snip*
this way you will have almost same sp than with a pure clr, will have access to elemental enhancements(40 spellpower for 1 AP is a nice deal)

The Elemental Spell Power enhancements are pretty close to worthless for a Divine caster. It is the Force enhancement that is really going to help you out.

I almost always take Sorc on my Clerics, either at level 1 or at level 12. Level one gives the advantage of early access to Master's Touch, when it is hard to scroll. However, you can pretty much just replace this functionality with a feat that you later swap out, so.... just kind of depends on how lazy you want to be.

One level of Sorc also gives you access to the 40 Spell Power Force Enhancement. This can be very valuable at level 12, right after you have gotten Blade Barrier. But much less noticeable at level 20. Notice, this is for Sorcs only, not Wizards. For whatever reason, you need 2 levels of Wizard to get this. Artificers get their Force enhancement at level 2 as well.


So yea.... 1 level of Sorc for a Cleric who uses Blade Barrier often? Given the lack of good high level spells, and the extreme difficulty of trying to make an offensive Divine caster work in Epic Elite content, it seems like a no brainer to me! At least until we see what the fabled Enhancement Trees look like, and see how hard they punish everyone who doesn't stay pure class.

Level 1 FvS? Not really much going on there. Sure you get an enhancement for 10 more HP, but as a Cleric you should have pretty decent HP anyways. As long as you wear an INT item, Wizard is going to give you more SP than a FvS splash after a Sorc splash. And Wizard comes with an extra Metamagic feat to boot.

stefferweffer
03-19-2013, 09:15 AM
As some have already stated, you do NOT need two levels of Wizard to get + 40 to your Force and Elemental spells. This is a false belief. You need two character levels, one of which needs to be wizard, and that is all.

I know this because I have a 8 Cleric/1 Fighter/1 Wizard right now, and those enhancements ARE available to me whenever I want them.

Just thought I'd mention this, because I do personally think Wizard to be the better choice, because of the free feat.

EllisDee37
03-19-2013, 09:33 AM
Exactly. 1 wizard is better than 1 sorc because you get the same +40 force damage and you also get a feat.

ReaperAlexEU
03-19-2013, 01:25 PM
Yes you can. Wizard Force Manipulation I requires two character levels, but only one of them has to be wizard.

Scrolls are subject to the same ASF as casting the spell, annoyingly enough. However, Master's Touch is not subject to ASF either by spell or scroll because it has no somatic component.

Also, for obvious reasons you cannot scroll Master's Touch for THF weapons. (And I imagine it would be a majorly annoying hassle to scroll it for a pair of TWF weapons or for a weapon and tower shield.)

If it's just for a tower shield, then yeah, scrolling works as well as the spell.

thanks for the correction :)

Antheal
03-19-2013, 04:23 PM
160 more SP sounds about right. I wouldn't swear to it exactly, but form my own experience it is very close to this. And then a bonus based on your Charisma score as well. Worth noting that you will only get this CHA bonus once, even with two CHA caster classes.

I'm getting 20 SP for each extra CHA modifier point (so 2 CHA = 20 SP).

unbongwah
03-20-2013, 01:21 PM
How much Spell Point difference would there be between a level 20 Cleric and an 18 Cleric who has splashed one level of both Favoured Soul and Sorcerer?
Since you already have the Magical Training feat from cleric, I believe FvS 1 / sorc 1 would provide 200 SPs; whereas staying pure cleric would gain 195 SPs from lvl 18 -> 20 (caster classes gain more SPs per lvl at higher lvls), or a mere +5 SPs. You would receive bonus SPs from Wizardry items, though I'm not sure if it would be +5% or +10% (i.e., whether sorc & FvS lvls would stack to determine bonus). But let's be generous and presume +10%, which would be a whopping +25 SPs from Wizardry X item. You would also gain extra SPs from higher CHA; I believe it works out to be +20 SPs (+10 from each splash) per +2 CHA above 10, so maybe 100-200 SPs by endgame; so, if you really pump up your CHA, you'd be able to cast a few more (un-meta-ed) Mass Heals or Implosions (presuming you don't sacrifice any WIS to get it - remember lvl 18 cleric gets +27 SPs per +2 WIS). In exchange, you give up +2 Spell Pen, a couple of high-lvl spell slots, and the capstone.

And that's why splashing just for extra SPs usually isn't worth it. You gain a few other modest benefits - like higher saves & access to arcane wands & a couple lvl 1 spells - but the pros don't outweigh the cons, IMHO.

EllisDee37
03-20-2013, 10:38 PM
And that's why splashing just for extra SPs usually isn't worth it. You gain a few other modest benefits - like higher saves & access to arcane wands & a couple lvl 1 spells - but the pros don't outweigh the cons, IMHO.You mean just for spell points.

This conclusion makes it sound like you'd recommend going pure cleric, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be your recommendation. (Your most recent caster cleric build posted to the forums is a 19/1 cleric/wizard for the very tangible benefit of +40 force and +1 feat.)

unbongwah
03-21-2013, 09:58 AM
Right, which is why I said "splashing just for extra SPs" - splashing for other reasons (like extra meta feat & Force I enh) is fine. :) I didn't want the OP to overestimate how many extra SPs they would get from splashing: partly because the Magical Training feat doesn't stack, AFAIK; partly because bonus SPs from Wizardry items are scaled by percentage of FvS / sorc lvls in one's build; and partly because casters gain more SPs per lvl at higher lvls (i.e., going from cleric lvl 1 -> 2 only gains 25 base SPs, but going from lvl 18 -> 19 gains 95).