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voodoogroves
03-13-2013, 04:51 PM
So, not for me. I know what I like and what I like to play. I'm also VIP and have basically everything and am generally ok on all my characters in whatever level appropriate content. I mean, I die ... but that's a between-the-chair-and-keyboard problem, not the character itself.

I've got a buddy of mine that played a bunch after the F2P launch. Several of us did, but overtime a few dropped out. Recently, my buddy has come back and has decided to give it another go.

He's premium.
He owns no additional classes.
He's got the half-blood race pack.
He's got most of the important packs, but not the expansion.
He has 2 characters at cap - barb (half-orc) and fighter (half-elf) - from the days of intimilocking and shield blocking.

The reason he gave up and walked away was that he tends to die somewhat frequently. He's got at best T2 greensteel and few if any epic items beyond things like Cove / Mabar. Not having the expansion means that for his 20s, he's kinda limited in gear and the like, and definitely well behind the curve in power with EDs.

What we've decided is that he'll TR one of them (likely the Barb) and I'll TR someone to level up with him. During that process he'll have enough TP to get EDs or maybe decide he likes it enough to buy the expansion.

The question is, what should I have him play. He likes melees. He likes the barb. He does not like being as vulnerable as he is, and he's not likely to farm SF favor for SF pots. He needs something that is far more out-of-the-box sturdy, but still smashy. He wants to have some self healing, but not so much that he's responsible for other people - so no cleric / fvs / etc. I think this means a hot-bar heal option, minimally.


I find myself looking at a half-orc Paladin or Bard with a couple fighter levels thrown in ... but that's me. Bards are easy for me to recommend, because I really like playing them. Paladin, not so much. He's also not the halfling type, so dragonmarked stunties are right out.




Anyway ... brainstorm with me. Where should he go with his next life?

HalfORCastrator
03-13-2013, 05:07 PM
TWF strength* (20) Rogue horc. Not exactly the jump-in-and-cleave type(not that barbs are, but that's the playstyle assumption), but good dps with survivability and self healing from wands/scrolls(and if he gets far enough for destinies and buys them, other options exist). Suggesting str rogue only because it's easier to gear and is simpler to play. Fits the bill. (he might not like trapping though)


EDIT:
*Enough dex for ISA at 21.

ka0t1c1sm
03-13-2013, 05:20 PM
I'm trying a 14 Ranger Tempest II/6 Fighter Kensei I Half-Elf with Cleric Dilettante. The 14 levels of Ranger lets you self cast 30 elemental resists and Freedom of Movement. Half-Elf heal amp helps with self healing (cure moderates hit for 100+). Cleric Dilettante lets you use wands and scrolls as a 10th level Cleric. That means no-fail Raise Dead and Restoration scrolls, and 95% on Heal scrolls without a single point invested in UMD if you so choose. DPS isn't top tier, but it's decent and will get even better once you toss Fury of the Wild in the mix.

My two coppers.

Vellrad
03-13-2013, 05:39 PM
1/2 orc paladin.

Its will be easiest for him, because, he will THF like barb (with less dps of course) but will have lays and cures.

PNellesen
03-13-2013, 06:21 PM
I'd go with some kind of Ranger and Fighter/Rogue/Monk splash as well. I'd suggest Half-Elf with Cleric Dilettante - 95% success on Heal scrolls without needing UMD is handy, plus CSW, FoM, Barkskin, and Ram's Might. Ranger Sprint boost, Manyshot, and Fighter Haste boost is nice too.

(Edit: Lol -no, I didn't copy the post above mine, just didn't read it until after I posted :p)

voodoogroves
03-13-2013, 06:35 PM
THF is probably more his style for this character; he does have a few others he never capped (an exploiter, a cleric, a wizard - all around 16-18) because he didn't ultimately enjoy them once things slowed down a bit in the leveling department.

He enjoyed the heck out of the Barbarian - but without EDs and access to many of the packs, he's behind the ball now.



Paladin I'm thinking an 18/2 w/ a feat layout something like PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Quicken. Bard would be nearly identical in many ways.


... but I could be missing some things. Fighter 12 and tactics has some appeal, but I need to get him more self sufficient on the character (not through farming gear).

MalkavianX
03-13-2013, 06:39 PM
I love this build by Thanimal: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=260560&highlight=hellacious. It's a Halfling Fighter 12/Monk 7/Wizard 1. And yes, the one level of wiz is necessary for the 2 meta feats that will fuel the halfling healing Dmarks. Super fun to play and very, very solo friendly. Check it out. :D Plus, if you have to you can throw some healing at your party members if you have to.

voodoogroves
03-13-2013, 06:52 PM
I love this build by Thanimal: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=260560&highlight=hellacious. It's a Halfling Fighter 12/Monk 7/Wizard 1. And yes, the one level of wiz is necessary for the 2 meta feats that will fuel the halfling healing Dmarks. Super fun to play and very, very solo friendly. Check it out. :D Plus, if you have to you can throw some healing at your party members if you have to.
Love the build. Always have.


He's also not the halfling type, so dragonmarked stunties are right out.

He won't though.

HalfORCastrator
03-13-2013, 07:00 PM
THF is probably more his style for this character; he does have a few others he never capped (an exploiter, a cleric, a wizard - all around 16-18) because he didn't ultimately enjoy them once things slowed down a bit in the leveling department.

He enjoyed the heck out of the Barbarian - but without EDs and access to many of the packs, he's behind the ball now.

Paladin I'm thinking an 18/2 w/ a feat layout something like PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Quicken. Bard would be nearly identical in many ways.

... but I could be missing some things. Fighter 12 and tactics has some appeal, but I need to get him more self sufficient on the character (not through farming gear).
I only didn't suggest 12ftr/x/y self sufficiency because the char is similar to a pure fighter anyway. If he'd be ok with that, I'll suggest:
12ftr/6pal/2rog or mnk (6 pal for loh and immunities)
12ftr/6rgr/2rog or mnk (6rgr for favored enemies, buffs, and manyshot. Wouldn't be bad for tactics, last time I thought about putting something similar together. - juggernaut-esque)
12ftr/7rog/1mnk (extra rog for SA along with the other benefits)
15pal/2ftr/3rog or mnk (self sufficiency, going as far with paladin as reasonable)


because he didn't ultimately enjoy them once things slowed down a bit in the leveling department.
Another thing, this made me doubt suggesting TRing a character. He might not enjoy the XP grind associated with 2nd life. Since he enjoys the barb, I'd say just start another character, first lifer. At least to ease him back in, don't want him to get bored/exhausted all over again. ;)

EDIT:
Also, starting a new char lets him regear for TWF with no mind towards all the nice THF gear his barb might have. And in terms of barb, it does fine on first life anyway.

voodoogroves
03-13-2013, 07:10 PM
I only didn't suggest 12ftr/x/y self sufficiency because the char is similar to a pure fighter anyway. If he'd be ok with that, I'll suggest:
12ftr/6pal/2rog or mnk (6 pal for loh and immunities)
12ftr/6rgr/2rog or mnk (6rgr for favored enemies, buffs, and manyshot. Wouldn't be bad for tactics, last time I thought about putting something similar together. - juggernaut-esque)
12ftr/7rog/1mnk (extra rog for SA along with the other benefits)
15pal/2ftr/3rog or mnk (self sufficiency, going as far with paladin as reasonable)
I should restate ...

*I* like Fighter12, but he won't unless it has some built-in better capability (like halfling marks and he hates halflings) to heal himself.


Another thing, this made me doubt suggesting TRing a character. He might not enjoy the XP grind associated with 2nd life. Since he enjoys the barb, I'd say just start another character, first lifer. At least to ease him back in, don't want him to get bored/exhausted all over again. ;)
It isn't the questing that bugs him, it's the lack of survivability. Besides, those first levels after a TR are easy peasy.


EDIT:
Also, starting a new char lets him regear for TWF with no mind towards all the nice THF gear his barb might have. And in terms of barb, it does fine on first life anyway.

I think we've got one chance to keep him in the game, and it's not going to be walking away from his Tharnes, greensteel, etc. It may all be T2, but he's got plans to finish that Lit2 great axe and Pos3 maul this week. Plus a TR lets him use those again early - and as he's never experienced the fun of walking through GH w/ his TR gear on, that'll be a good boost. Hell, he's not leveled up using ship buffs yet.


If I could fit Fighter 12 on a great self healing platform with what he's got, I would (Arti 6, for instance, on a WF - but that's not an option).

Qhualor
03-13-2013, 07:14 PM
I recently finished 3X paladin lives. I had a lot of fun and the dps and self sufficiency was really good. I would recommend that class if your buddy doesn't like the idea of being so vulnerable. of course, as you know since you have been around the block a time or two, knowing how to play the class (regardless of class) is separate from knowing how to build a character. TRing and leveling with him, you could maybe take the time to show him "how to play" and maybe he can be less vulnerable :)

EllisDee37
03-14-2013, 04:16 AM
I'm mulling over a 12/8 fighter/cleric "pseudo-pally" concept atm. The idea is to create a pally without any pally levels, but with better dps. The self-healing isn't quite as good but should still be quite functional. Most of the fighter dps goodness comes in the first 12 levels, anyway, right? (Note: It's specifically designed to always show your icon as a fighter in groups, never as a cleric.)

It's designed around greataxes, specifically carnifex for leveling and epic antique greataxe for endgame. Does his barb have those, by chance?

Currently I'm leaning toward human, but I originally designed it as a dwarf to capitalize on the racial bonuses to greataxes. Link to build (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4938997&postcount=18).

The downside to that build will likely be saves, especially reflex. But it should have better dps than a pally as well as good enough healing via radiant servant burst (with all 3 metas!) that it should be quite survivable. Plus, stunning blow with a reasonable DC on first life.

If he really wants survivable, an evasion paladin might be the way to go. My version also is THF, though functions best with falchions due to how pally abilities work. Not that it can't use greataxes, of course. It will be a noticeable step down in dps from a barbarian, and it has no tactical feats to speak of, but all three saves are rock solid, and with evasion it can pretty much ignore most of what the 12/8 build would find threatening. (Lightning bolts, traps, dancing ball, etc...) That build is linked in signature.



Regarding not having the expansion, the best endgame gear in today's game comes from Gianthold.

voodoogroves
03-14-2013, 08:11 AM
Regarding not having the expansion, the best endgame gear in today's game comes from Gianthold.

But leveling to 25 and getting EDs leveled is MUCH easier / more varied w/ Eveningstar.

voodoogroves
03-14-2013, 08:18 AM
I'm mulling over a 12/8 fighter/cleric "pseudo-pally" concept atm. The idea is to create a pally without any pally levels, but with better dps. The self-healing isn't quite as good but should still be quite functional. Most of the fighter dps goodness comes in the first 12 levels, anyway, right? (Note: It's specifically designed to always show your icon as a fighter in groups, never as a cleric.)

It's designed around greataxes, specifically carnifex for leveling and epic antique greataxe for endgame. Does his barb have those, by chance?
Working on it for him, but you can imagine how much fun it is for him to be a 20 with no ED partying with someone who's 24-25 with at least one ED capped and gear they got along the way. Plus, that thing isn't a gimme - I can spot him a scroll, but the seal and shard have to be farmed. We ransacked Snitch yesterday, no love.


If he really wants survivable, an evasion paladin might be the way to go. My version also is THF, though functions best with falchions due to how pally abilities work. Not that it can't use greataxes, of course. It will be a noticeable step down in dps from a barbarian, and it has no tactical feats to speak of, but all three saves are rock solid, and with evasion it can pretty much ignore most of what the 12/8 build would find threatening. (Lightning bolts, traps, dancing ball, etc...) That build is linked in signature.

His DPS isn't that hot anyway. It's good - for a Barb who just hit 20 and has no EDs and essentially no epic gear on a first life character and has at-best +2 tomes. This means that my level 14 Half Orc Bard isn't far behind him - and that he's miles away from any of my capped characters with loads of pre-expansion epic gear, expansion/GH gear, +4 and 5 tomes, etc. His guy is basically 2 years old.

unbongwah
03-14-2013, 10:16 AM
From what you listed, to me the obvious suggestion is a DoS pally; I like pally 18 / ftr or monk 2. [Monk is preferable for Evasion, IMHO, but it sounds like he doesn't have it unlocked.] He can start out as DPS / THF-oriented, then shift into a S&B / tank-y role later if he likes.

Arlathen
03-14-2013, 10:22 AM
Convince him to buy Monk and for him to go - Half-Orc or Half-Elf, Monk, Light Path, with Crafted Vampirism Wraps.

If he won't do it, perhaps Half-Orc/Half-Elf 14 Ranger/6 Fighter or even 12 Ranger/8 Fighter (GWS).

boredman
03-14-2013, 02:03 PM
From what i read, a evasion paladin is what i would suggest for your bud. A Dos or Hotd Paladin 18/monk 2 would be the ideal but if dont have Monk class, no worries, still can get evasion from a PALADIN 18/ROGUE 2 splash, USING LIGHT ARMORS OR OUTFITS/ROBES for evasion.

Now, As a Paladin is important to know that they dont have the dps of a Barbarian or a kensai fighter so is VERY IMPORTANT TO FOCUS ON DPS FOR NEW PALADINS because this is a game with 90% of the quests where dps is more needed than tanking. I remember when i did my first build (a paladin) and i followed the suggestions of many posts to being tank focused because paladins can be good tanks, but what they didnt say is that this is a game where dps is more useful for most of the quests, and I finished making a good defensive toon but gimped at high levels because my dps was bad, not contributing to most of the quests.

Paladins already have good saves and with evasion with some self healing, they are already good at surviving, so my suggestion is to focus your features and gear towards dps mainly (and some saves of course), forget about ac (still can get some useful ac for normal and hard without much effort) and about weapon style i suggest Twf because your friend dont have epic destinyes yet and twf gives a bit more dps before epic destinies.

Go twf Kophesh or scimitar or rapier, Human, half elf or half orc are good races ( I prefer Human or half elf because they give you HEALING AMPLIFICATION enhancements (heal amplification is very important to improve your survivaility and self healling so make sure to get some heal amplification gear too), about prestiges, Hotd is very good through leveling because it improves your heal amplification and make you immune to many negative spells and energy drains. At higher levels Defender of Siberys is very good because it boosts your hitpoints, some saves, ac, str and Prr for defenses.

voodoogroves
03-14-2013, 03:32 PM
Convince him to buy Monk and for him to go - Half-Orc or Half-Elf, Monk, Light Path, with Crafted Vampirism Wraps.

If he won't do it, perhaps Half-Orc/Half-Elf 14 Ranger/6 Fighter or even 12 Ranger/8 Fighter (GWS).

He's not spending any money until he decides it's fun again for him. If he were, I'd have him buy the expansion/EDs and he could romp around in Fury, which is likely to be hella fun for him.

People keep gravitating towards evasion. I have evasion on lots of folks - but it isn't all that.

Mercureal
03-14-2013, 03:47 PM
People keep gravitating towards evasion. I have evasion on lots of folks - but it isn't all that.

Maybe not, but it's a big piece of the survivability pie, and achievable without giving up too much on your character. After a barb life, I bet he'd come to like evasion pretty quick if he had decent saves.

PurpleTimb
03-14-2013, 04:14 PM
As an alternative, you might consider 16 bard/2 rogue/2 fighter. I play my warchanter pretty much like a barb, but with displacement, evasion, full UMD for scrolls and some spell healing for emergencies. With 34 points he could get full trap, search and open lock skills as well. Displacement + evasion + ability to disable traps will go a long way to make him feel much more survivable, even before considering self healing.

Lord of Blades favored soul would fit, but he probably doesn't have access to FVS. If the focus is more on survivability than top tier melee DPS consider a battle cleric such as Breagin's 12 cleric/6 fighter/2 pally (https://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397561) for more melee focus or for early melee transitioning caster later something like the Warpriest of Siberys (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2847871&postcount=75) from tihocan's 'Paths Revisted.'

What character are you planning to play? If you two are going to be leveling together having synergy between the two characters can be more important than the build of either by itself.

Good luck; I hope he decides to stay.

voodoogroves
03-14-2013, 04:17 PM
Maybe not, but it's a big piece of the survivability pie, and achievable without giving up too much on your character. After a barb life, I bet he'd come to like evasion pretty quick if he had decent saves.

Sure, maybe ... and maybe I'm trying to channel him a bit and reacting as I expect he will. I for one know my most survivable characters are NOT the ones with evasion, and oddly never have been. Great saves and a one-button-heal is the core.

From an experience perspective, and this is true in many genres - not just gaming - it is likely less important to him that he gets hurt less over time (as there are other ways to mitigate or repair from that), but more that he has something he can do when he DOES get hurt.

For his situation, the cost is 2 feats. PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Quicken sounds like a feat-set that's all kind of smashy, plus can pop a quickened cure. He'd lose the THF feats first, I'd suspect. His only benefit would be being able to pop a lock now and then, since I'm sure he wouldn't want to be doing traps.

EllisDee37
03-14-2013, 06:25 PM
Sure, maybe ... and maybe I'm trying to channel him a bit and reacting as I expect he will. I for one know my most survivable characters are NOT the ones with evasion, and oddly never have been. Great saves and a one-button-heal is the core.Heh, sounds like the mentality I gravitated toward on my evasion pally. AC? PRR? Pshaw! Give me unlimited 300+ hp heals, 50-across saves and call it a day. hehheh.

Orratti
03-14-2013, 09:26 PM
12/8 Barb/Ftr squeeze the shield feats and khopesh in then twist in healing spring. Not self sufficient but will usually be able to take a few big hits between healings. Pretty simple to run and has enough feats to give a few different fighting options while getting the heavy barb hits.

ZzpxpzZ
03-14-2013, 10:09 PM
I will throw my vote in towards something like Helf 12 Pal, 6 Fighter, 2 Rogue.

Hunter of the Dead 2, Kensai 1. Rogue for max UMD and evasion.

Monk dille.

Crank the healing amp as high as possible and your simple paladin cure moderates and cure crits will hit for over 100, you will have some decent resistances to some annoying affects from HotD 2, and great saves combined with evasion.

DPS wont be as high as a barb but it wont be too bad either while leveling focusing on 2HF and the cleave line. EDs are the great DPS normalizer anyway which is why survivability has gone so far up in importance for end game characters nowadays rather than merely focusing on pure DPS.

This build definitely leans a bit more towards the survivability side but should be very fun to play.

Therigar
03-14-2013, 11:09 PM
I was going to start with some smart remark about how it is always "my friend" who needs help. But, this will have to do. ;)

I like the ranger/fighter suggestion. The great thing about it is that the whole TWF line comes for free. That means he can choose TWF OR THF at any time without problems.

I also like the half-elf suggestion but the problem with cleric dilly is that he has to invest build points in WIS. IMO that is a waste.

I would go all STR and CON and ignore the UMD stuff. Instead I'd rely on healing amp to make the ranger spells effective. Keep in mind that WIS only needs to reach 14 with gear to cast the highest level ranger spells. An 8 WIS is sufficient -- especially with so many items now having augment slots where you can toss a +6 WIS if needed.

I would also wear heavy armor for the PRR and use shield with either bastard sword or dwarven axe in quests where evasion isn't necessary. In quests with lots of ray spells, lightning, traps, etc. I would wear light armor so the ranger evasion could kick in.

Your knowledge of the quests should help decide what to wear on what quest.

TWF feats are all free with the ranger levels. Tempest I and II with focus on slashing weapons and exotic weapon of his choice; THF feats plus PA, Cleave, Great Cleave.... IMO that will make for a powerful character very similar to what he's played before but better suited to take damage.

Not sure on Kensai I. Might be better to go Stalwart and to pick up the shield feats. This is why I suggest bastard sword/dwarven axe -- works with THF feats and benefits from double-strike from shield feats. Allows turtling if necessary.

Probably quickdraw for rapid shifts among weapon sets plus other obvious considerations.

Dilly on half-elf would be barbarian I would think.

EllisDee37
03-15-2013, 04:41 AM
TWF feats are all free with the ranger levels. Tempest I and II with focus on slashing weapons and exotic weapon of his choice;Well, the TWF line is technically free but you don't save any feats if you go tempest, which requires dodge, mobility and spring attack as prereqs.

ArcaneArcher52689
03-15-2013, 09:40 AM
I know he doesn't currently have access, but if you can convince him to buy monk, he will notice a HUGE increase in his survivability.

But without monk, I'd say thf pally

Therigar
03-15-2013, 09:28 PM
Well, the TWF line is technically free but you don't save any feats if you go tempest, which requires dodge, mobility and spring attack as prereqs.

It isn't so much about saving feats as being able to get more of them by working in class splits.

Benefit of Tempest is that it works to improve TWF by increasing the off-hand procs -- making the spending on feats saved from the TWF line worth using on dodge, etc.

It also grants a shield bonus, increased PRR and, per the wiki, an attack speed boost.

So, I'm not sure where you're finding fault or why.