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View Full Version : The simple crossbows REALLY need to be useful.



knightgf
03-11-2013, 11:15 PM
Currently, simple crossbows, such as the light and heavy crossbows, are nearly useless. Why is this, you ask? Well I can list some simple reasons:


No base damage mod ability. Only artificers and rogue mechanics are capable of applying a damage modifier to it.
Lack of base damage compared to repeating crossbows. Of course, repeating crossbows will always be better, but as a alternative, more simple weapon, it really is lacking.


I am not asking for light or heavy crossbows to be replaced. What I do ask for, however, is the ability for these crossbows to be a weapon to switch to in a ranged situation that is superior in ranged damage compared to throwing weapons and on par with regular bows. I suppose some solutions to making light and heavy crossbows a viable alternative would be to:


Add some sort of damage mod. Maybe Strength could apply? If you think about it, the stronger your character is, the further back they can turn the winch on a crossbow. Intelligence could also be a viable damage mod, as it would make sense to be smart and aim for a opponents vital organs.
Slightly increase the attack speed of these crossbows. A bit more would help offset the poor damage they have.
Increase the base die damage. Since these are one-shot bows, they should be capable of firing a bolt at a higher velocity than a repeating crossbow.
Make light and heavy crossbows of all types, including repeating, have a difference. Light crossbows should have a faster rate of fire, but less damage than a heavy crossbow, and vice versa.


I dont know if this will help simple crossbows much, but its worth a shot. Your thoughts?

HunterjWizzard
03-11-2013, 11:29 PM
Sell conversion kits to turn them into repeaters. With the existance of repeaters regular light/heavy/great crossbows are basically just wasted space. NOBODY uses them, yet a lot of really good lootget goes to waste...

For example, I've got a Night's Grasp Great Crossbow of Absolute Chaos that I bought as a portal-beater. Problem is: my Night's Grasp Repeating Light Crossbow can out damage it(thats with no damage suffix that effects portals). Now it sits in my TR cache, alone, useless, and unloved.

I think its time to just face facts: regular non-repeating crossbows are useless and nothing will change that.

Kilbar
03-11-2013, 11:32 PM
Take the nerfbat to repeaters so they're vaguely realistic. In real life chu-ko-nu repeating crossbows were so weak they needed poisoned bolts to be truly effective weapons.

Great crossbows are currently even more useless than normal crossbows, since unless you're an artificer you need to spend a feat to be proficient with them and even if you are one, they lag behind in damage.

Uska
03-11-2013, 11:59 PM
I see no realistic way to make regular xbows useful they arent really useful most of the time in pnp either.

HunterjWizzard
03-12-2013, 12:02 AM
Ahhhh, dont nerf repeaters! Who cares if they are unrealistic?! They are awesome!

Anyway nerfing repeaters would be a severe nerf to the artificer class which is basically built around them.

danzig138
03-12-2013, 12:53 AM
In real life chu-ko-nu repeating crossbows

Luckily, we're talking neither about real life, nor actual chu-ko-nu. As for fiddling with the crossbows. . . no. They suck in pnp and they should suck here. Crossbows are what wizards pull out when they run out spells.

Mastikator
03-12-2013, 04:34 AM
Crossbows are constructed with mechanisms that allow a averagely strong man to pull it all the way back. If you think about it you could absolutely NOT benefit from strength here, the point of them is that even a weak character is capable of using crossbows.
A second fact about crossbows is that they aren't martial weapons, they're simple weapons, meaning anybody without martial training can use them efficiently. What's special about crossbows (if anything) is the armor piercing ability. Give them armor piercing and damage reduction ignoring capabilities IMO, other than that simple weapons shouldn't trump martial weapons.
I agree that the hit die is too low, it should be a 1d10 for a light and a 1d12 for a heavy, and both should have a 19-20 x3 crit modifier and have a +10% accuracy, perhaps even stunning on crit. In terms of raw DPS over time they should NOT be on par with bows. Crossbows are for sniping, meaning one shot then hide, not continuous shots.

Charononus
03-12-2013, 05:33 AM
Regular crossbows are weak in dnd and in real life. I don't think this is something that needs to change as it models real life very well. In the middle ages the power of the crossbow wasn't that it could penetrate heavy plate like a longbow but that you could train scores of crossbowmen quickly where a good longbowman took a very long time to train in how to use his bow.

Meetch1972
03-12-2013, 05:45 AM
I agree that if crossbows are to be kept in the loot tables, something about them should make them more worthwhile than they are at the moment.

The one thing I can think of, that might sorta make sense and add usefulness is to do with the fact is that they're load/point/pull trigger. Once loaded, unlike a shortbow or longbow they should be easier to aim, and perhaps give better accuracy than a repeater since you don't have to think about the string tension. Give us (STR+INT) bonus at least on to-hit, and perhaps the higher bonus plus half the lower bonus added to damage, and maybe some percentage of precision (without any feats) depending on the crossbow. Such a to-hit bonus might also be considered for the FIRST shot from a repeater (with a possible negative to accuracy on second and third shots thanks to recoil).

It still wouldn't have the DPS of a repeater, but at least situationally useful for particularly high AC targets or mobs that run around lots. Thoughts?

bartharok
03-12-2013, 05:46 AM
The other advantage to crossbows was excellent damage at SHORT range, maybe they could add a point blank like ability to them. On the other hand, they generally had bad accuracy at longer ranges (short bolts), so they might get extra penalties for longer ranges. That would make them more realistic.

Meetch1972
03-12-2013, 05:54 AM
Crossbows are constructed with mechanisms that allow a averagely strong man to pull it all the way back. If you think about it you could absolutely NOT benefit from strength here, the point of them is that even a weak character is capable of using crossbows.

Yes. One little exception I'd argue is strength may help with accuracy if shooting at a moving target (holding it steadier, or making last microsecond adjustments to the aim as the target dodges around).


What's special about crossbows (if anything) is the armor piercing ability. Give them armor piercing and damage reduction ignoring capabilities IMO, other than that simple weapons shouldn't trump martial weapons.

I'd add maybe some fortification bypass against anything that can bleed. Unfortunately, this wouldn't close the gap between repeaters and regular crossbows for anyone.

The argument about adjusting crit ranges is valid IMNSHO too. +1 from me overall here. :)

Edit...:

The other advantage to crossbows was excellent damage at SHORT range, maybe they could add a point blank like ability to them. On the other hand, they generally had bad accuracy at longer ranges (short bolts), so they might get extra penalties for longer ranges. That would make them more realistic.

And another +1 to this. Shorter range but more close-up damage (and I'd argue, accuracy) versus less effectiveness at longer range - again perhaps would have to apply to all crossbows, which wouldn't do anything in itself to close the gap between repeaters and non-repeaters.

Charononus
03-12-2013, 06:00 AM
Yes. One little exception I'd argue is strength may help with accuracy if shooting at a moving target (holding it steadier, or making last microsecond adjustments to the aim as the target dodges around).

It doesn't take exceptional strength to do this though only average str, the real life equivalent of 8 str can aim a gun or crossbow just fine.



I'd add maybe some fortification bypass against anything that can bleed. Unfortunately, this wouldn't close the gap between repeaters and regular crossbows for anyone.

This however is just false, crossbows have less armor penetrating power than a longbow in real life.

Mastikator
03-12-2013, 06:05 AM
Regular crossbows are weak in dnd and in real life. I don't think this is something that needs to change as it models real life very well. In the middle ages the power of the crossbow wasn't that it could penetrate heavy plate like a longbow but that you could train scores of crossbowmen quickly where a good longbowman took a very long time to train in how to use his bow.
Quite the opposite, a medieval arbalest has the same firing power as a modern 9mm handgun, crossbows were illegal for a while in Europe because they allowed a mere peasant to take out a knight clad in full metal plate, it's also what eventually lead to the downfall of knighthood. Crossbows have superior firepower compared to longbows, but took much longer to reload, in real life though that isn't a problem since a single bolt could kill or incapacitate you, rather than deal 1d8 out of your 500+ hp. ;)

There's basically 2 approaches we can go,
1 crossbow is a peasants weapon and only useful at low levels.
2 crossbow is a sniper assassin's weapon and has incredible firepower but prohibitively slow rate of fire.

I personally feel that the light crossbow ought to take the place of 1, good at levels 1-3, garbage thereafter. And heavy crossbow has armor piercing capabilities and expanded critical range with stun on crit, rogue assassins should be given proficiency with great crossbows for ranged assassinations. But both would deal LESS damage over time compared to a bow.

For the record, there shouldn't be a thing called "Bow Strength", it's purely a magic/gamist solution in DDO and has no resemblance to either real archery nor D&D. Composite bows in D&D allow for strength to be used, without a feat requirement, in DDO composite bows are a meaningless concept. Strangely DDO seems to prefer abstract game concepts over verisimilitude.

Mastikator
03-12-2013, 06:10 AM
Yes. One little exception I'd argue is strength may help with accuracy if shooting at a moving target (holding it steadier, or making last microsecond adjustments to the aim as the target dodges around).

I'd add maybe some fortification bypass against anything that can bleed. Unfortunately, this wouldn't close the gap between repeaters and regular crossbows for anyone.

The argument about adjusting crit ranges is valid IMNSHO too. +1 from me overall here. :)

Edit...:


And another +1 to this. Shorter range but more close-up damage (and I'd argue, accuracy) versus less effectiveness at longer range - again perhaps would have to apply to all crossbows, which wouldn't do anything in itself to close the gap between repeaters and non-repeaters.
"Holding it steadier" is a matter of dexterity, which is already used as a to hit bonus for crossbows (and bows).

Closing the gap between regular crossbows and repeaters is a bad thing. Crossbows are simple weapons, EVERYONE can use them. Repeaters are exotic weapons, only a few can use them proficiently without expending precious feats on them.

cdbd3rd
03-12-2013, 06:27 AM
For the record, there shouldn't be a thing called "Bow Strength", it's purely a magic/gamist solution in DDO and has no resemblance to either real archery nor D&D.....

I love these realism discussions. :)


In the above comment, if you trying to imply that a 25-lb pull bow will cause the same damage as a 70-lb pull bow, I'll debate that. ;)




... Crossbows are simple weapons, EVERYONE can use them. Repeaters are exotic weapons, only a few can use them proficiently without expending precious feats on them.

(kinduv off-topic, but...)
The DDO version of repeating crossbows has always been somewhat amusing. The original repeating crossbows were actually designed for untrained soldiers to use, relying on number of bolts sent down-range to cause damage to a massed foe.

Charononus
03-12-2013, 06:28 AM
Quite the opposite, a medieval arbalest has the same firing power as a modern 9mm handgun, crossbows were illegal for a while in Europe because they allowed a mere peasant to take out a knight clad in full metal plate, it's also what eventually lead to the downfall of knighthood. Crossbows have superior firepower compared to longbows, but took much longer to reload, in real life though that isn't a problem since a single bolt could kill or incapacitate you, rather than deal 1d8 out of your 500+ hp. ;)

There's basically 2 approaches we can go,
1 crossbow is a peasants weapon and only useful at low levels.
2 crossbow is a sniper assassin's weapon and has incredible firepower but prohibitively slow rate of fire.

I personally feel that the light crossbow ought to take the place of 1, good at levels 1-3, garbage thereafter. And heavy crossbow has armor piercing capabilities and expanded critical range with stun on crit, rogue assassins should be given proficiency with great crossbows for ranged assassinations. But both would deal LESS damage over time compared to a bow.

For the record, there shouldn't be a thing called "Bow Strength", it's purely a magic/gamist solution in DDO and has no resemblance to either real archery nor D&D. Composite bows in D&D allow for strength to be used, without a feat requirement, in DDO composite bows are a meaningless concept. Strangely DDO seems to prefer abstract game concepts over verisimilitude.
A crossbow can do this short range, a long bow can do this from range. Crossbows were illegal because the peasant could pick it up and use it with 30 minutes of training to down a knight.

Meetch1972
03-12-2013, 06:31 AM
It doesn't take exceptional strength to do this though only average str, the real life equivalent of 8 str can aim a gun or crossbow just fine.

Ok, being nitpicky in an attempt to find some excuse to make crossbows at least situationally useful, I'm trying to argue that the wizard with 8 STR may not deal as well with the recoil as a stronger individual. But point taken. :)


This however is just false, crossbows have less armor penetrating power than a longbow in real life.

Firstly, I've never fired either, so not going to argue too much (but see the reason above:)). From vague memories/stories I would believe that a crossbow stores a bit more energy, and at very short range more energy would be in the bolt when it hits you than an arrow (Edit: just throwing it out there - maybe add blunt to the damage type of bolts - or blunt headed bolts as an option for skellingtons), but the arrow would win at a certain range and indeed there are D&D tables showing some sort of balance between different ranged weapon types, in rate of fire, range, damage and accuracy. I don't have them handy though, and these details have always been very largely overlooked in DDO anyway. My main has always been able to throw his Dwarven Thrower a very very long way at things which usually can't shoot back from that distance, but at least he can hold a shield while doing so - so closer mobs have a harder time hitting him. As it stands as far as I can see, especially considering encumbrance issues, a caster with a crossbow would be about as well off with a returning dart, as all it would ever be used for is hitting that lever waaaayyyyyyy over there.

I think this thread is not so much about realism, as finding us an excuse to choose a light/heavy/great crossbow over a repeater or short/longbow. All ideas welcome, especially good ones. :D I'm not looking for the crossbow to be used by casters, or anyone really as a tool for general DPS, but some situational usefulness so a caster might actually decide that 1 quest in 20 it might actually be worthwhile having one in the golf bag.

All criticism welcome, as long as it remains constructive.

Dagolar
03-12-2013, 06:53 AM
Accurate Markmanship:
When using a non-repeating crossbow, the crossbow ignores 10% fortification.

Improved Markmanship:
When using a non-repeating crossbow, the crossbow ignores DR and AC equal to the enhancement bonus of the crossbow.


Something like that?

In any case, making the adjustments listed in the OP is a right nightmare of a way to go about it. Feats, the new Enhancement system, and EDs should all help form the basis of specialized weapon builds- much like the mock-ups for the new Enhancement system already offer for certain weapons.

voodoogroves
03-12-2013, 06:59 AM
Simple weapons are simple. I wouldn't mind seeing them as a viable alternative to "any returner" but I'm not keen on much developer time spent on that.

What I do want to see are some seriously decent NAMED non-repeaters, esp. a Great Crossbow. Fusilade removes the reload time on ANY crossbow, so using it with a repeater is less gain than using it on the momma-bow.

Dagolar
03-12-2013, 07:10 AM
Simple weapons are simple. I wouldn't mind seeing them as a viable alternative to "any returner" but I'm not keen on much developer time spent on that.

What I do want to see are some seriously decent NAMED non-repeaters, esp. a Great Crossbow. Fusilade removes the reload time on ANY crossbow, so using it with a repeater is less gain than using it on the momma-bow.

Well, Great Crossbows are an exotic weapon- and with no PrEs related to them. They should, in a game mechanic balancing sense, be at least equal to repeaters in overall functionality. The nat 20 effect isn't a bad start, of course, but named Great Crossbows and abilities affecting them [or affecting a single shot of a bow, and thus benefiting the more intense per shot Great Crossbows more] are still needed.

phillymiket
03-12-2013, 07:30 AM
I think there is a big difference between types of crossbows that were used back in the day.

I doubt the crossbow a wizard would pick up would have a very high draw weight and therefore being pretty weak seems realistic to me.

I don't think the crossbows we use in DDO represent any kind of wench, windlass or rack and pinion type crossbow with a mechanical advantage to compensate for poor strength.

I envision the light and heavy crossbows as simple hand operated machines, so having the base damage be similar to a bow but the rate of fire much less seems realistic to me.

The great crossbow seems like a a siege crossbow or a gastraphetes and should be slow as molasses. You don't really carry these things as a personal to-go arm.

The repeating crossbow is clearly trying to be a a cho-ku-nu, what with the top loading magazine, and by all rights should have less base damage and less range but for the purposes of the game is beefed up uber to make taking the feat worth it.

I'm fine with the way these are used in the game and see no reason to change anything too much.

If people want crossbow feats that would be fine but make me scratch my head as to why you would choose a crossbow to spend feats on rather than a bow that ultimately, after mastering, would be more deadly in the game as it is in real life.
.

ddobard1
03-12-2013, 07:36 AM
At level 8 I use a longbow however I dont own a decent weapon against earth elemental... but I looted a ML +2 metalline light crossbow and I kept it instead of deconstruct it!

Besides that crossbows are simple weapons.

Mastikator
03-12-2013, 07:41 AM
In the above comment, if you trying to imply that a 25-lb pull bow will cause the same damage as a 70-lb pull bow, I'll debate that. ;)
Bow Strength is a feat.
What DDO does is that it gives two men each a 25-lb pull bow, and because the first man is stronger he can pull it as though it were a 70-lb pull bow, completely ignoring the fact that it would snap the bow.
In D&D there were composite bows that could allow strength bonuses up to a point, it wasn't a feat that simply added strength to bows. In DDO they changed it and added a nonsensical solution instead.

ddobard1
03-12-2013, 07:48 AM
... If people want crossbow feats that would be fine but make me scratch my head as to why you would choose a crossbow to spend feats on rather than a bow that ultimately, after mastering, would be more deadly in the game as it is in real life.


For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

Charononus
03-12-2013, 07:57 AM
For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

Sure they do silver flame faith

phillymiket
03-12-2013, 07:58 AM
For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

A cleric or FVS spending feats on crossbows would make me scratch my head.

What could you possibly do with a crossbow on a divine that would be anywhere close to what you could do with your spells or melee weapons even if DDO did introduce feats?

When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?

Crossbows were what you gave newbs in your army to use. :D
.

Lonnbeimnech
03-12-2013, 07:59 AM
For instance cleric and favored Soul dont have proficiency in bows neither can cast Master's Touch.

Follower of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive

Cost: 2 action points

Progression: 0 action points

Requires All of: No Requirements

Available to Paladin, Cleric level 1

+1 To-Hit bonus with Longbows. Active Benefit: expend 1 Turn Undead to gain Tira's Champion that grants proficiency in Longbows to yourself or a friend.

This enhancement automatically grants the following:

SilverFlameExorcism.png
[edit] Tira's Champion

Activate this ability to grant weapon proficiency in Longbows to yourself or a friend until target rests. Consumes a use of Turn Undead. This ability may not be activated until you have gained the Turn Undead ability at Paladin level 4 or Cleric level 1.







BelovedOfSilverFlame.png Favored by the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 1)

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You are considered proficient with Longbows.

Child of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 3), Favored by the Silver Flame

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You have +1 to attack rolls with Longbows.

Beloved of the Silver Flame

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Favored Soul (Level 12), Child of the Silver Flame

Description

You are a favored soul of the Silver Flame. You deal 2 extra damage with Longbows.

FranOhmsford
03-12-2013, 08:00 AM
When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?


William Tell!

Lonnbeimnech
03-12-2013, 08:01 AM
A cleric or FVS spending feats on crossbows would make me scratch my head.

What could you possibly do with a crossbow on a divine that would be anywhere close to what you could do with your spells or melee weapons even if DDO did introduce feats?

When has there ever been a famous, heroic arbalist in history?

Crossbows were what you gave newbs in your army to use. :D
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

phillymiket
03-12-2013, 08:08 AM
William Tell!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

I posted that statement will full knowledge that someone would post someone I hadn't thought of and was and am fully prepared to +1 that person.

Yes, very good example and the exception that proves the rule.

But, I still stand by my assertion that crossbows were ideal for their ease of use rather than because they were ideal weapons.

This is represented by the fact that they are simple weapons and a wizard and cleric are able to use them without any specific training and therefore are fine as they stand.

I'm pretty sure a fully trained longbowmen would never choose a crossbow over his longbow, given a choice.
.

Charononus
03-12-2013, 08:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

Yes but he has a point, crossbows were given to conscripted commoners more often than not.

FranOhmsford
03-12-2013, 08:19 AM
I posted that statement will full knowledge that someone would post someone I hadn't thought of and was and am fully prepared to +1 that person.

Yes, very good example and the exception that proves the rule.

But, I still stand by my assertion that crossbows were ideal for their ease of use rather than because they were ideal weapons.

This is represented by the fact that they are simple weapons and a wizard and cleric are able to use them without any specific training and therefore are fine as they stand.

I'm pretty sure a fully trained longbowmen would never choose a crossbow over his longbow, given a choice.
.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070404041426AAUKCsV

X-Bows never became big in the British Isles for one very simple reason...

Every man had to train with the Long Bow weekly! From a Very young age!

There was absolutely no need to go about training commoners with the X-Bow!

phillymiket
03-12-2013, 08:23 AM
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070404041426AAUKCsV

X-Bows never became big in the British Isles for one very simple reason...

Every man had to train with the Long Bow weekly! From a Very young age!


There was absolutely no need to go about training commoners with the X-Bow!
Everything changed when the Black Death attacked.

I'm no historian (even though that won't stop me pretending I am) but I'm pretty sure crossbows were around when longbows were being used and even before.

My understanding is that crossbows took over after the black plague when the feudal system began to break down and a lord could no longer demand longbow training from peasants, who were gaining wealth and power, so they switched to crossbows that could be taught quickly to a paid army slapped together with whatever people you had left alive after the plague.

There may still have been laws but the peasant worker was in high demand after half the folks dropped dead and a lord could not enforce longbow training like they could before and began to have to <gasp> pay people to do stuff.
.

FranOhmsford
03-12-2013, 08:29 AM
Everything changed when the Black Death attacked.

I'm no historian (even though that won't stop me pretending I am) but I'm pretty sure crossbows were around when longbows were being used and even before.

My understanding is that crossbows took over after the black plague when the feudal system began to break down and a lord could no longer demand longbow training from peasants, who were gaining wealth and power, so they switched to crossbows that could be taught quickly to a paid army slapped together with whatever people you had left alive after the plague.
.

Assuming here you're talking about the Black Death - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 1348-1350

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt October 1415!

65 Years Later!

The X-Bow did replace the Longbow on Mainland Europe {Especially in Switzerland and Italy}!
BUT Never gained Purchase in the British Isles!

It was the Matchlock Guns that eventually forced the Longbow out of contention over here.

phillymiket
03-12-2013, 08:34 AM
Assuming here you're talking about the Black Death - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 1348-1350

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt October 1415!

65 Years Later!

The X-Bow did replace the Longbow on Mainland Europe {Especially in Switzerland and Italy}!
BUT Never gained Purchase in the British Isles!

It was the Matchlock Guns that eventually forced the Longbow out of contention over here.

If you think I'm going to stop posting just because I'm wrong then you are sadly mistaken.

I counter with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au3DBVo1EqM
.

bartharok
03-12-2013, 12:21 PM
And another +1 to this. Shorter range but more close-up damage (and I'd argue, accuracy) versus less effectiveness at longer range - again perhaps would have to apply to all crossbows, which wouldn't do anything in itself to close the gap between repeaters and non-repeaters.

The less effective at long range, WOULD in this scenario carry over to repeaters, with a vengeance, since you wouldnt actually have time to aim the bolts. The effectiveness at short range wouldnt increase, if youre being realistic, since they would have to have less pounds of pull to be able to be reloaded so fast.

Talon_Moonshadow
03-12-2013, 02:22 PM
I totally agree that Crossbows need to be useful.

I have pulled several with abilities that wold be considered the best of the best, if they had dropped on a Kopesh.... yet on a crossbow they just become vender trash. :(


... and every class needs a useful ranged option. Many can only use crossbows.

D&D has struggled with crossbows since the beginnings of the game.

The Crossbow was a very deadly weapon in history, yet in D&D and DDO it is just about useless. (more so in DDO)


Problem is.. any change would also include repeating crossbows.... which in capable hands (Arty, Mechanic) are very deadly.


Anyway, my argument for years now is that ranged combat need to be sped up for everybody.
although Artificers kinda messed up that idea.... :(


Not sure what they should do to get them right though.... more damage maybe... higher crit chance.... or maybe a way higher crit multiplyer?

Biggest problem is any change like that will get the repeater lovers insisting that it should work th esame way for repeaters.

I'm kinda a believer that historically the repeating crossbow was not very effective....
lighter ammo maybe? Less accurate? Not sure why...

I think regular crossbows should have real high crit multiplers..... based on greater pull and accuracy then repeaters....