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EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 02:24 PM
In a discussion on pallies it was pointed out that you could probably make a better pally by using no pally levels at all. The original suggestion was 14/6 fighter/fvs. I'm leaning toward 12/8 fighter/cleric for a few reasons:

1) death ward
2) freedom of movement
3) burst

Burst in particular is what I'd like to center the build around. Maximized, empowered, empower healed, quickened burst. With a 5th feat spent on 4 extra turnings to get into double-digit regenerating turns.

The fighter side would be kensei, with as many dps feats/enhancements as can fit.

Initial thought is thf dwarf using greataxes: carnifex 4-19, antique greataxe (slotted w/devotion) from 20+, with LD as the destiny. Heavy armor for the PRR.

Feats actually get tighter than I'd like, but I think it still works:

7 base (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18)
2 epic (21, 24)
7 fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12)
---
16 feats

Maximize
Empower
Empower Heal
Quicken
Extra Turn Undead
Extend (makes dw & fom 16 minutes instead of 8:00, plus helps short-term buffs like divine favor)

Toughness
Stunning Blow
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Overwhelming Critical
Weapon Focus: Slashing
Weapon Specialization: Slashing
Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

Any builds like this to link to? I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Any thoughts? Would you rather go 14/6 instead, or maybe use FVS instead of cleric?

unbongwah
03-11-2013, 02:54 PM
This might be radically different from what you envision, but a build idea I keep meaning to level is FvS 12 / pally 6 / monk 2:


FvS 12 for the spells (mostly buffs, Heal, and light DPS), Shield of Condemnation
pally 6 for the survivability bonuses, DoS I, Exalted Smite, Divine Might & Sacrifice I
monk 2 for the usual reasons (2 feats + Evasion)

The concept is to be a lite hate-tank with better self-healing than a regular pally. The light debuff from Shield of Condemnation means mobs attacking you take extra dmg from Sacrifice, Divine Punishment, Radiance weapons & guards, etc. The original concept was TWF HE w/rog dilly (for +3D6 SA ofc); but it should be adaptable to any race or combat style.

Feats are at a premium: 7 base + 2 monk + 2 epic = 11 total (+1 if human instead). But that's enough for, say, Toughness, 3 metas (Max / Quik / Emp Heal), 5 "core" DPS (TWF or THF x3, Power Atk, IC:Slash), with two left over to round things out (e.g., SM & ISM or CL & GC). You could swap pally for ftr and gain 4 more feats, ofc; but you'd lose the survivability bonuses and in particular Divine Sacrifice, which is kinda key to the whole "make things light-vulnerable then whack them w/light atks" concept I was going for.

Enoach
03-11-2013, 02:57 PM
Very interesting and brings in some alternate abilities for Paladin class.

Cleric vs FvS brings in:

Use of Burst as a replacement to LoH and Hunter of the Dead Restore capabilities (This could be stronger due to AoE as well as meta magic feats)
Regeneration of turns means DM and Healing can both be used to maximize Turns
Fighter Haste Boost as a replacement to Zeal
Divine Power - BaB enhancement (4th level Spell)

This leaves the Save Bonus and Disease immunity as the only features not replicated/replaced.

reducing the Cleric levels to 6 would lose the Level 4 spells and you would need 8 FvS levels to get one level 4 spell choose between Deathward and FoM (9 would get both). I'm seeing at least 2 Level 4 spells this build would want to have memorized - Deathward, Divine Power. FoM would be the 3rd Spell that would put this build over a paladin.

12/8 Fighter/Cleric Looks the closest to cover all capabilities of a Paladin.

Arlathen
03-11-2013, 03:06 PM
I've done something similar, but went Monk instead of Fighter. Do a search on the 'Meric' build, I think it was something like that where I made a post on a 12 Monk/7 Cleric/1 Fighter concept.

On a side note, I did actually build the character - pre U14. It was good fun and was a extremely self-sufficent, solo capable build. I even ground some excellent gear for him - Mana Bauble, Torc, ConOpp SP Helm, Holy Burst ToD Ring etc etc etc.

However, I think if I was to roll a similar concept again, I'd look at going Dil: Rogue and Dark Monk instead of Dil: Paladin and Light Monk this time around, for a substantial increase in Melee DPS. I mainly took the Paladin Dil to shore up the Reflex saves, but with U14+ that wouldn't be a problem anymore and the extra 6D6 Sneak Attack DPS and Shadowfade would be extremely gravy.

If you stick with Fighter though, I would say drop the Kensai angle and go with Stalwart Defender. +4 Str/Con in stance would give you the same tactics bonuses as Kensai as well as an additional +3 Damage while THF. +15% HP and extra PRR would be really handy for the extra survivability.

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 03:23 PM
If you stick with Fighter though, I would say drop the Kensai angle and go with Stalwart Defender. +4 Str/Con in stance would give you the same tactics bonuses as Kensai as well as an additional +3 Damage while THF. +15% HP and extra PRR would be really handy for the extra survivability.The HP and PRR angle is quite tasty.

Just to clarify, kensei II gives the following to THF:
+4 damage
+8 critical damage (before multiplier)
+2 tactical dcs
+8 strength (60-second action boost)
+2 action boosts/rest
+2 to-hit

Therigar
03-11-2013, 03:29 PM
Pre-epic destinies I don't think it matters one way or the other and the suggestions might be more DPS than a pure Paladin.

When you figure in epic destinies and the fact that Paladins can get virtually unlimited smites, I'm not sure that it is an improvement.

IronClan
03-11-2013, 04:07 PM
Cure Critical is the spell to take with 8 FvS if we're keeping within the boundry of "self healing melee DPS"

DP can be clickied.

Basically the choice between X Cleric or X FvS is Healing versus DPS.

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 04:09 PM
DP can be clickied.As can DW. Only FOM requires a spell slot, but to be honest, FOM is great but not a deal-breaker.

unbongwah
03-11-2013, 04:24 PM
If you really want FOM, there's still Delving Boots (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Kundarak_Delving_Boots).

IronClan
03-11-2013, 04:25 PM
Pre-epic destinies I don't think it matters one way or the other and the suggestions might be more DPS than a pure Paladin.

When you figure in epic destinies and the fact that Paladins can get virtually unlimited smites, I'm not sure that it is an improvement.

How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

I know people like their "big number home run swings" but 12 or 14 smites plus 1 per min (if I'm reading it right) a couple other longer cool down swings out of hundreds of swings is really not the be all end all, when averaged out. The AP investment to make those swings big (10AP for exalted smites, 10 more for extra smites), and the high CHA investment to make them bigger might actually total out to a LOSS in DPS, if those same resources were put into STR, other ED abilities, and 20 AP's in fighter enhancements.

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 04:47 PM
Regarding destinies for any of these build variations (12/8 or 14/6, fighter/cleric or fighter/fvs) I'm thinking Legendary Dreadnought as the primary in order to get all the nice tactical boosts and extra action boosts, as well as lay waste and momentum swing to take the place of divine sacrifice and exalted smites.

Meaning the profile might be:

Legendary Dreadnought
- Sense weakness
- Brace for impact
- Rejuvenation coccoon

Does that look about right?


How unlimited are they?Not very. Your impression of it being somewhat limited (few uses, long "cooldown") is fair. While waiting for exlated smites to regen, you can get great use out of adrenaline-ing:

- Divine sacrifice (+1 multiplier)
- Momentum swing (+5[W])
- Lay waste (+5[W] and +1 multiplier)

Depending of course on what you twisted in.

Enoach
03-11-2013, 05:04 PM
How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

...

I wouldn't say "unlimited", what I would say is available more often.

With a base of 5 Smite Evil with a 6 second Cool down with regen at 60 seconds and using these one right after the other would mean a 30 Second delay between the Last Smite and the ability to smite again. So in theory 6 Smites in the first minute.

Now with enhancements that bring the cooldown to 5 Seconds that means potentially being able to fire off 13 Exalted Smites in a single minute (Needs 12 Smites available to do this) of course KotC is the only PrE pre-ED that could have this amount 5 (20 Pal levels) + 4 (Extra Smite Enhancements) +3 (PrE III). With Endless Smiting KotC could gain +3 more or also save AP by not buying IV on the Extra Smite.

Smites/Exalted Smites are Great Burst DPS, for a more long running ability I prefer Divine Sacrifice with items like Con-Op or Torq Divine Sacrifice is a source of higher consistent damage 9d6 Light Damage (very few resistant to this type). The Crit Multiplier bonus still requires an evil opponent so Divine Sacrifice can be seen as a 1/2 Smite .

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 05:14 PM
I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

Do all of the following stack?

Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?

Therigar
03-11-2013, 05:49 PM
How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

I know people like their "big number home run swings" but 12 or 14 smites plus 1 per min (if I'm reading it right) a couple other longer cool down swings out of hundreds of swings is really not the be all end all, when averaged out. The AP investment to make those swings big (10AP for exalted smites, 10 more for extra smites), and the high CHA investment to make them bigger might actually total out to a LOSS in DPS, if those same resources were put into STR, other ED abilities, and 20 AP's in fighter enhancements.

The situation is that, given the number of others involved in melees, Paladins don't really run out of smites before they've regenerated. Of course, this wouldn't be the case if you are soloing (assuming you were spamming smites in every encounter). Then again, soloing by itself reduces the difficulty of any quest and the need to use smites will be smaller as the result.

You are correct that it is a high investment in enhancements and in CHA. Choice of combat style also should be considered. The real question is whether the sustained damage from higher STR outpaces the damage from smites. And, that is a question that can be skewed depending on what it is that you want to prove.

And, while the list of CHA attack and damage weapons is quite small there are still some that could prove interesting regardless of content. For example, Epic Dynastic Falcata (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Dynastic_Falcata) and Epic Elyd Edge (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Elyd_Edge) both have potential and the real differences then come in the form of base damage and added elemental/alignment/untyped/etc type damage.

I'm not saying that the suggested builds are or are not more DPS. I'm just saying that it isn't clear cut like it was in the pre-ED game.

Arlathen
03-11-2013, 07:28 PM
I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

Do all of the following stack?

Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?

I see no reason why they wouldn't - and I can confirm that OC and DC both stack personally.

(And indeed stack with Earth Stance 3/4 on a Monk to go off on a tangent...)

Gremmlynn
03-11-2013, 08:08 PM
I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

Do all of the following stack?

Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?Unless it's been fixed, devastating Critical actually gives +1 to crit range.

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 09:50 PM
Unless it's been fixed, devastating Critical actually gives +1 to crit range.Well phooey, that's not as fun.

EllisDee37
03-11-2013, 11:07 PM
Here's my first pass at the full build.

There ends up being "player's choice" feat at 21 between epic toughness and extend spell. Personally I'd much prefer extend, but if the hit points end up being low I'd probably go for epic toughness. It requires a +3 con tome, though, so if you don't have one then I guess extend wins by default.

The "Divine ... I" prereq for RS1 is taken at 11 and would ideally be divine might I, which requires a +2 cha tome. Without the tome I guess divine vitality I is the best choice.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Radiant Kensei
Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter / 8 Cleric / 5 Epic)

Abilities 28pt 32pt 34pt 36pt
Strength 16 18 18 18
Dexterity 8 8 8 8
Constitution 18 16 18 18
Intelligence 10 10 10 10
Wisdom 8 10 8 10
Charisma 12 12 12 12

Skills Ranks
Balance 11
Bluff
Concentration
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Haggle
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Jump
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Perform n/a
Repair
Search
Spot
Swim
Tumble 1
Use Magic Device 11

Feats
1 : Toughness
1F: Stunning Blow
2F: Power Attack
3 : Empower Healing Spell
6 : Quicken
6F: Cleave
9 : Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
10F: Great Cleave
12 : Maximize Spell
14F: Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
15 : Extra Turning
17F: Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
18 : Empower Spell
19F: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
21E: Epic Toughness or Extend Spell
24E: Overwhelming Critical

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III
Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III
Improved Power Attack
Lay Waste
Critical Damage III
Anvil of Thunder
Devastating Critical
Headman's Chop
Master's Blitz
Twist 1: Sense Weakness
Twist 2: Brace for Impact
Twist 3: Rejuvenation Cocoon

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Protection From Evil


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Soundburst
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (1): Shield of Faith
Spell (2): Aid
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Prayer
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Enhancement: Take one of:
- Cleric Divine Might I (If you have a +2 cha tome)
- Cleric Divine Vitality I (If you don't have a cha tome)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (4): Death Ward
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Spell (3): Mass Aid
Spell (4): Divine Power
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV

Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness or Extend Spell

Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical



Enhancements

Kensei II
Greataxe Mastery II
Greataxe Specialization I
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Strength II

Haste Boost IV
Extra Action Boost I
Divine Might I

Stunning Blow IV
Dwarven Tactics II

Radiant Servant I
Life Magic III
Extra Turning I

Dwarven Constitution II
Fighter Toughness II
Dwarven Toughness I

Attack Boost II (prereq)
Critical Accuracy II (prereq)
Improved Heal II (prereq)
Improved Turning I (prereq)

PNellesen
03-11-2013, 11:37 PM
I've got a melee cleric I've been considering TRing into a Dwarven melee type self-healing self-sufficient build. Having done 19C/1F and 18 Ranger/2 Fighter to death, I was wanting something different this time around. I'd say this would do it ;)

I have a feeling it would be tough getting into raids with that build though :p - "you only have 8 levels of Cleric! How do you expect to hjealz???"

Uska
03-12-2013, 12:03 AM
If you really want FOM, there's still Delving Boots (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Kundarak_Delving_Boots).

Was just going to say that:) love mine

EllisDee37
03-12-2013, 12:20 AM
I have a feeling it would be tough getting into raids with that build though :p - "you only have 8 levels of Cleric! How do you expect to hjealz???"hehheh.

I intentionally designed it to always have more fighter levels than cleric levels, meaning it will show a fighter icon at every level. That way pugs won't mistake you for a healer when you join, at least.

In terms of raid-worthiness, the sad thing is that it should have better dps than a pally by a pretty significant margin.

Jingwei
03-12-2013, 02:06 AM
Hmm, I'd have taken fighter 12/cleric 7/ monk 1 for the extra feat. Then drop empower and extra turning to get the full thf feat chain.

Then go helf, take monk dilly. This gets you 4 levels of healing amp and human damage boost.

Your healing amp goes from ~1.43 (dwarf, ship buff, pdk gloves) to ~2.09 (human amp II, monk amp II, ship buff, pdk gloves)

EllisDee37
03-12-2013, 02:45 AM
Hmm, I'd have taken fighter 12/cleric 7/ monk 1 for the extra feat. Then drop empower and extra turning to get the full thf feat chain.

Then go helf, take monk dilly. This gets you 4 levels of healing amp and human damage boost.

Your healing amp goes from ~1.43 (dwarf, ship buff, pdk gloves) to ~2.09 (human amp II, monk amp II, ship buff, pdk gloves)Or just go 12/8 human.

Arlathen
03-12-2013, 02:38 PM
So, in progress yet? :D

What have you decided to go with?

EllisDee37
03-12-2013, 05:59 PM
I've actually been mulling over Jingwei's suggestion and the implications of it. Though monk is out; If you're looking for an extra feat by splashing 1 level of a third class, for this build wizard is better than monk in almost every way. (Loses you like 4 hp I think, but every other aspect is a win.)

I'm starting to wonder how viable burst would be for primary healing. My calculations put it at in the low 100s, which is anemic at best. I'd really like to see it hit 200 at a minimum.

Jingwei
03-13-2013, 04:02 AM
Think you are better off relying on maximize + empower healing crue critical, compared to trying to have good burst heals.

Data looks like:

------------

BURST:
12.5 (base healing 4.5 + 8)

60 life magic
150 maximize
75 empower
90 devotion item
75 empower healing
5.5 base spell power

68 healing base

healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)

so around 129 points healed.
and that's wearing a 90 devotion item.

-------------

Compared to CCW :

31 base heal (14 + 8 + 9)

60 life magic
150 maximize
75 empower healing
=
3.85 base spell power

119 healing base
or around 226 after ~1.90 hamp.

---------------

The problem is that quickened, maximized, emp heal ccw costs 65 SP. So you'd have to be able to take around 24 hits to torc that SP back, which means you'd have to take around 10 hp a hit for that to be sustainable.

That's also why healing amp for this sort of build is so important. You generally have to alternate between burst, lesser silver flame pot, and chain cure casting. Sure it'll keep you up, but it's not a lot of fun.

On the other hand, I was able to solo hard new invasion at level 18 or 19 on my barb life (barb 7/cleric 7/ rogue 6) and probably doing much worse DPS, even with a ring of lies, that a purpose built build would do. So it's not all bad. Was probably wearing 10% + 20% DT and using a 3pos GS weapon with 30% hamp on it for that fight.

---------------

That's also why I think something like cleric 12 / fighter 6 / paladin 2 or cleric 12 / fighter 6 / rogue 2 or whatever will be a better build. You get access to both he much superior healing aura and the heal spell and can hopefully use DP to make up for your reduced melee damage.

Or if you think that will make people dislike you too much, you can probably go 12 cleric / 6 monk / 2 ranger and pwnzor everything.

EllisDee37
03-13-2013, 05:06 AM
The core principle of this build is to emulate a pally without pally levels, only with good dps. 12 cleric changes the nature of the build.

My actual pally would never be able to sustain 65sp cures and his land for 350hp. (He spends 22sp on them.) So for this build I'm ruling out healing by casting spells pretty much as a rule. However, rejuvenation cocoon + burst is a solid foundation of healing to work with, albeit tying up a (tier 1) twist.

For devotion I'm thinking to slot it into eAGA, meaning +114 is the target. That also gives +18 implement bonus, for a total of +42 ahead of +90.

For healing amp I'm now thinking human II, along with the same pdk gloves + 20% of sup parrying bracers combo my pally currently wears.

The one area where this build falls on its face compared to a pally is saves. It should have plenty of umd for gh scrolls (fear) and can self-cast fom for holds, but dancing ball will probably be a nightmare. And I don't even want to think about reflex. (My pally's saves are something like 5?/48/47, plus evasion.)

EllisDee37
03-14-2013, 09:56 AM
Running some numbers on a human version using Jingwei's suggestion of dropping extra turning and empower for the full THF line, and I think I like it.

Assuming eAGA slotted with +114 devotion and both 30% & 20% amp items equipped...

With quicken, maximize, & empower heal where allowed:
134 Radiant Burst (range is 96 to 171)
322 Cure Critical (65sp) This is essentially Lay On Hands
133 per tick of Rejuvenation Cocoon (12sp) up to 5 ticks per casting

With just these three I see quality, functional healing. Pallies only get a very limited number of lay on hands. Granted they typically land for 500+ at least, but 300+ is respectable for an emergency button. Besides which, rejuvenation cocoon is the bread and butter.

With no metas:
181 Cure Critical (20sp) 9 hp/sp
148 Cure Serious (12sp) 12 hp/sp
115 Cure Moderate (8sp) 14 hp/sp
63 Cure Light (6sp) 10 hp/sp

This is acceptable base healing, and you get virtually all of it (except cocoon) by level 15. Besides which, once you get to epic levels you can use rejuvenation cocoon between fights to heal 565 hp for 12 sp. Hard to top that. While leveling, burst can shoulder the brunt of the load nicely, plus it's a nice easy way to restore neg levels from beholders.

Losing Extra Turning costs 4 turns, leaving:

3 base
7 charisma (12 base +2 tome +2 ship +8 ghost-waking cloak = 24)
1 enhancement
---
11 turns, used for burst and divine might

15 would be nice, of course, but 11 works. The fact that they regenerate helps a ton.

I'll post the full build soon. Fingers crossed that this week's upcoming sale is on character slots. If so, I'm rolling one up immediately.

Jingwei
03-14-2013, 11:58 PM
The new and improved Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind) is probably worth farming for. It'll even take devotion augments.

EllisDee37
03-15-2013, 04:27 AM
Oooo, shiny! That looks better than carnifex:

Whirlwind: +5 Screaming Greatsword w/DC 17 knockdown on crit, 1.5[2d6] 15-20x2 w/improved crit
Carnifex: +2 Keen Greataxe, 1d12, 17-20x3

Assuming devotion in whirlwind's red slot -- which gives it an advantage -- let's see where they break even. Keeping in mind, of course, that screaming hits pretty much everything, plus it has crowd control...

Whirlwind
25*(5+10.5+bonus) + 19*3.5
25*bonus + 125 + 262.5 + 66.5
25*bonus + 454

Carnifex
27*(2+6.5+bonus)
27*bonus + 54 + 175.5
27*bonus + 229.5


27*bonus + 229.5 = 25*bonus + 454
2*bonus = 224.5
bonus = 112.25

Ha! So if your strength bonus + power attack + ship buffs + set bonus + enhancements + feats + whatever else is one hundred and freaking 12 or higher, carnifex wins. Good lord does whirlwind look awesome!

Just for completeness, if you don't have improved crit carnifex only needs a mere 81.5 damage bonus to catch up. These numbers seem insane; did I mess up the math somewhere?

Daemoneyes
03-15-2013, 07:53 AM
You may want to check out Xuum (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Xuum), almost as good as Whirlwind and easier to get.
Bought mine for 9999platin ^^

Atremus
03-15-2013, 08:22 AM
Since you are considering a "Pally-ish" build. Would you consider Helf with the Pally Dilly to mimic the saves of a True pally?

A friend of mine just did a Fighter life with 10FTR/8FVS/2Rogue. So your build concept is sound.

stefferweffer
03-15-2013, 09:31 AM
Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further? I thought that you could not on Carnifex, which is why I ask.

I did buy an unbound Whirlwind off the AH about a week ago for 50k for my new Cleric (now level 8). Can't wait to try it out, ESPECIALLY if Improved Critical works with it.

Thanks.

Daemoneyes
03-15-2013, 09:39 AM
Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further? I thought that you could not on Carnifex, which is why I ask.

I did buy an unbound Whirlwind off the AH about a week ago for 50k for my new Cleric (now level 8). Can't waitit to try it out, ESPECIALLY if Improved Critical works with it.

Thanks.

Yes you can use impr.Crit with Whirlwind and co.
Carnifex has Keen, which gives you the impr.Crit feat if you dont have it.
So it does not further improve Carnifex if you have the feat.

unbongwah
03-15-2013, 11:24 AM
Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further?
Improved Crit works with any weapon which doesn't have the Keen / Impact property. So yes, it works just fine with Whirlwind. :) What makes Carnifex king of low-lvl 2H weapons is that it's ML:4, keen (earliest you can take IC is lvl 8), and has double the crit range of a normal greataxe.

Ideally you have SOS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sword_of_Shadow) + IC:S on your 2H builds, but SOS is a sufficiently rare drop that you need something until you pull one.

EllisDee37
03-15-2013, 04:23 PM
Since you are considering a "Pally-ish" build. Would you consider Helf with the Pally Dilly to mimic the saves of a True pally?This looks highly appealing. I'm only planning on taking improved recovery II on the human version, which a half-elf gets. +5 to all saves is win.

It'll hurt fitting in those extra 6 AP, and I have to figure out a feat to drop, plus a little tighter on skills, but those strike me as minor logistical nuisances.

Unfortunately, it screws up my stat distribution by requiring 13 cha at start. I was pretty firm on only going 12 base; I'll look into it a little more.

guardianx2009
03-15-2013, 05:13 PM
Think you are better off relying on maximize + empower healing crue critical, compared to trying to have good burst heals.

Data looks like:

------------

BURST:
12.5 (base healing 4.5 + 8)

60 life magic
150 maximize
75 empower
90 devotion item
75 empower healing
5.5 base spell power

68 healing base

healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)

so around 129 points healed.
and that's wearing a 90 devotion item.


I think the math a little bit off here.

I did a extensive testing on bursts:
RSII actually grants 2 caster levels and Empower healing is enhanced to 100 spell power.

Correct numbers should look something like this:


BURST:
14.5 (base healing 1D8 + 10, actual range 11-18hp)

60 life magic
150 maximize
75 empower
90 devotion item
100 empower healing
475 Total Spell Power (5.75 multiplier)

83.75 avg healing base (actual range 63-103hp)

Healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)
158 (actual range 119-196hp)

Max healing amp ~2.51 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff, 20% gear, 10% gear)
210 (actual range 158-258hp)

EllisDee37
06-01-2013, 09:18 AM
So, in progress yet? :D

What have you decided to go with?I spent a couple months on my necro cleric, which is finally capped and flagged for almost every raid. His gear is serviceable but not great, but he raid heals (and insta-kills) well enough that I finally got started on the build concept in this thread.

I decided to go human and pump up the int as future-proof for the enhancement abomination, where all of a sudden everyone who casts spells gets a skill tax. So the build I went with gets lots of skills. For now I spend the extras on intimidate, jump and balance.

Started him as a vet2 @ 7 and have leveled him to 13 so far, having just last night finished his upgraded sora kell set. While not yet ready to post a full build thread, I'm tired of the switching around to the many tabs on my build spreadsheet so I want to post it to the forums somewhere. Necroing this thread seemed the logical choice.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Divine Kensei
Level 25 Chaotic Neutral Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 8 Cleric \ 5 Epic)

Abilities 28pt 32pt 34pt 36pt
Strength 16 18 18 18
Dexterity 8 8 8 8
Constitution 14 14 14 16
Intelligence 12 12 12 12
Wisdom 10 8 10 8
Charisma 14 14 14 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20

Skills Ranks
Balance 7
Concentration 23
Intimidate 22
Jump 8
Tumble 1
Use Magic Device 11

Feats
1 : Toughness
1H: Power Attack
1F: Cleave
2F: Stunning Blow
3 : Weapon Focus: Slashing
6 : Great Cleave
6F: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
9 : Extend Spell
10F: Improved Critical: Slashing
12 : Empower Healing Spell
14F: Two Handed Fighting
15 : Maximize Spell
17F: Improved Two Handed Fighting
18 : Greater Two Handed Fighting
19F: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
21E: Overwhelming Critical
24E: Quicken Spell

Legendary Dreadnought
Legendary Tactics III
Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III
Improved Power Attack
Lay Waste
Critical Damage III
Anvil of Thunder
Devastating Critical
Headman's Chop
Master's Blitz
Twist 1: Sense Weakness
Twist 2: Rejuvenation Cocoon
Twist 3: Brace for Impact

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Protection From Evil
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Aid
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (2): Lesser Restoration
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Spell (3): Prayer
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I


Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Bless
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Death Ward
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Enhancement: Human Versatility III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Spell (3): Mass Aid
Spell (4): Recitation
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV


Level 21 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 24 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell




I'm actually using whirlwind, so my kensei mastery is for greatsword instead of greataxe. I'll respec when I get to 20 and switch to eAGA. (Still need the shard, though I have the scroll and seal.)

I'd kinda like to be able to use greataxes for the whole life but I had an extra sword of the thirty and whirlwind laying around and I wanted to get started.

Stoner81
06-03-2013, 07:06 AM
Interesting build idea Ellis thanks for posting it...

Is this build doable without major amounts of twink gear just for leveling to level 20 and then TR'ing, I have completionist toon I am working on and need to get through 3 fighters lives at some point (along with everything else mind you lol).

Stoner81.

EllisDee37
06-03-2013, 11:04 PM
Interesting build idea Ellis thanks for posting it...

Is this build doable without major amounts of twink gear just for leveling to level 20 and then TR'ing, I have completionist toon I am working on and need to get through 3 fighters lives at some point (along with everything else mind you lol).

Stoner81.That's what I'm doing now, and yeah it works fine. No twink gear at all, really, since it's a first life.

I'm up to level 15 now, and it's going pretty well. Getting deathward and fom greatly improved the experience, that's for sure.

Stoner81
06-08-2013, 03:47 AM
Ah right cool :) I will keep this bookmarked then for when it's time to do my fighter lives!

Stoner81.