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Jatner
03-09-2013, 04:47 AM
I'm trying to help my Mrs build her 1st life 28 point build dwarf fighter.

I haven't played a pure melee before so I'm not too sure how well I'm doing. We're on a new server, not using twink gear or buying tomes from the store so I've had to tweak some of the builds I've seen posted here.

At the moment she's got Kensei II and is running around with a great axe. What sort of damage numbers per swing should we be looking for at level 16?

Thayion516
03-09-2013, 04:58 AM
not counting crits. 70+ per swing before buffs. 100+ after buffs.

voxson5
03-09-2013, 06:36 AM
not counting crits. 70+ per swing before buffs. 100+ after buffs.

Do you want to break that down? Remembering that the OP is new to the server they are playing on, no twink gear and 28 points (so no alchemical or gs weapons, no past lives, potentially no tomes).

STR 18 + 4 levels + 6 item + 3 fighter + 2 guildship (being generous) = 33, so +11 mod
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater WS +2
Kensai I sig. Weapon +2
Kensai II sig. Weapon +2
Fighter Weapon Specialization +1
Fighter Weapon Specialization 2 +1
Great Axe; +5 Weapon; d12 av. 6.5 = +11.5

So *unbuffed* first hit would be 32.5 av.
Where are you getting the other ~40 points of damage from?

cru121
03-09-2013, 07:23 AM
power attack: +10

t0r012
03-09-2013, 07:29 AM
Do you want to break that down? Remembering that the OP is new to the server they are playing on, no twink gear and 28 points (so no alchemical or gs weapons, no past lives, potentially no tomes).

STR 18 + 4 levels + 6 item + 3 fighter + 2 guildship (being generous) = 33, so +11 mod
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater WS +2
Kensai I sig. Weapon +2
Kensai II sig. Weapon +2
Fighter Weapon Specialization +1
Fighter Weapon Specialization 2 +1
Great Axe; +5 Weapon; d12 av. 6.5 = +11.5

So *unbuffed* first hit would be 32.5 av.
Where are you getting the other ~40 points of damage from?

OMG , how dare you bring real numbers in to this mystical fairy land that inflates all numbers by a factor of two.
+1 to you sir , for keeping it real.

---------
Dwarf axe damage 1&2 will add + 2 more to the base.
Power attack will add 10 more.
So around 40 avg base damage a swing wouldnt be unrealistic.

So all said and done adding anothe couple from random gear stuff like sora kell or other minor thing. Let's round up to say 45? Is a decent damage number from a first pit untwinked toon.

So op let's say your Mrs should probably be hitting somewhere between 35&45 per swing for base damage.

Ivan_Milic
03-09-2013, 07:41 AM
not counting crits. 70+ per swing before buffs. 100+ after buffs.

At lvl 16?
No.

Jatner
03-09-2013, 08:51 AM
I'm releived by the later posts here, after reading the first comment I thought we were well behind where we should be.

At the moment she's swinging for around 35-40 per hit (plus elemental damage etc.) and crits for 110- 125 ish

thanks for the reassurance that the build isn't completely nerfed damage wise!

Standal
03-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Nobody has included power surge. That's an additional 4 damage. Given the current state of the game, I'd consider building to be able to swap to Stalwart at cap. Fighter strength 3 is included in the strength buildup, I'd drop that as it's just too many AP for at best +1 attack/damage. I'd use the AP to focus on dwarven and fighter tactics.

Thayion516
03-09-2013, 09:17 AM
Do you want to break that down? Remembering that the OP is new to the server they are playing on, no twink gear and 28 points (so no alchemical or gs weapons, no past lives, potentially no tomes).

STR 18 + 4 levels + 6 item + 3 fighter + 2 guildship (being generous) = 33, so +11 mod
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater WS +2
Kensai I sig. Weapon +2
Kensai II sig. Weapon +2
Fighter Weapon Specialization +1
Fighter Weapon Specialization 2 +1
Great Axe; +5 Weapon; d12 av. 6.5 = +11.5

So *unbuffed* first hit would be 32.5 av.
Where are you getting the other ~40 points of damage from?

Well, I was comparing to my Lv 16. but he has 6 levels of barb for FB1 (10Ftr/6Barb currently). So I usually stay raged up to around 50+ STR most of the time. When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus, which u did not add into your post.

for me:
+12 or so more then the OP from STR.
+4 GH (Belt from X Cipher is easy to farm at lv 16)
+2 rage potion

she should also have:
+6 Power Surge (+8 psioic str)

Horc = +4 racial. +15% DPS Boost. +10 from adding to PA thru enhancements.

So Yah .. maybe its not an apples to apples comparison. my bad. But I do usually swing for about that much 70-100 depending on rages and active self buffs. Crit for 300+ at times.

+STR is HUGE for a 2 handed fighter as you get +150% the bonus.

Kmnh
03-09-2013, 09:41 AM
Do you want to break that down? Remembering that the OP is new to the server they are playing on, no twink gear and 28 points (so no alchemical or gs weapons, no past lives, potentially no tomes).

STR 18 + 4 levels + 6 item + 3 fighter + 2 guildship (being generous) = 33, so +11 mod
Weapon Specialization +2
Greater WS +2
Kensai I sig. Weapon +2
Kensai II sig. Weapon +2
Fighter Weapon Specialization +1
Fighter Weapon Specialization 2 +1
Great Axe; +5 Weapon; d12 av. 6.5 = +11.5

So *unbuffed* first hit would be 32.5 av.
Where are you getting the other ~40 points of damage from?

Power attack +10
power surge +6 str, pushing the mod to +14. +3
Two-handed weapons get +half str mod on offhand: +7
claw or sora kell set +2
dakhaani vigor ship buff +2
dwarven greataxe damage +4
using a 1.5[w] weapon, like most named ones at this level: +3.25

I'm sure I'm missing stuff and that puts it close enough to see 70+ rolls every now and then.

Grailhawk
03-09-2013, 01:22 PM
Helf TWF Kensai Fighter

STR Brake down
18 Base
04 Tome
08 Item (Black Dragon Helm)
01 Exceptional Item (Ravagers Ring)
02 Insightful (Ravagers Ring)
01 Race
03 Class
02 Ship buff
08 Power Surge
05 Primal Scream
59 Total Self Buffed

Damage
24 STR Mod
06 Weapon Enchantment
02 Ship buffs
02 Kensai
06 Fighter (Feat and Enhancements)
05 Power Attack
05 Advancing Blows
04 Claw or Planar Sets
54 Total Main Hand
42 Total Off Hand

09 Bard
01 Prayer
64 Total Main Hand Buffed
52 Total Off Hand Buffed

3-28 Drow Khopesh Base with Improved Power attack
5-55 with Deadly Weapon and Combat Brute:

Main Hand Unbuffed Range is
57-82 Crits: 171-246 @x3 285-410 @x5

Off Hand
45-70 Crits: 135-210 @x3 225-350 @x5

Main Hand Buffed Range
69-119 * 1.2 for Damage Boost
82.8-142.8 Crits: 248.4-428.4 @x3 414-714 @x5

Off Hand
57-107 * 1.2 for Damage Boost
68.4-128.4 Crits: 205.2-385.2 @x3 342-642 @x5

That's base before effects and seeker damage and there is more gear available then what I have in there hope that helps.

voxson5
03-09-2013, 01:35 PM
Nobody has included power surge. That's an additional 4 damage. Given the current state of the game, I'd consider building to be able to swap to Stalwart at cap. Fighter strength 3 is included in the strength buildup, I'd drop that as it's just too many AP for at best +1 attack/damage. I'd use the AP to focus on dwarven and fighter tactics.

I only looked at unbuffed (and missed very obvious stuff like power attack)

Edit:

Ok, so now it's not 2am.
THF Str damage mod - +17 (1&1/2 str mod for THF)
Dwarf racial - +4
Power Attack +10
Sora Kell set +2
Guildship +2

Add with rest for ~ 56.5 avg first *unbuffed* number.

EarlofPain
03-09-2013, 01:38 PM
Kensi 3 at level 16?
Drow Khopesh at level 16?
EPIC black dragon helm/armor/destinies at level 16?

Level 16... I don't think that means what you think it means.

Bacab
03-09-2013, 01:42 PM
GH does not add damage rolls.

Grailhawk
03-09-2013, 01:46 PM
Kensi 3 at level 16?
Drow Khopesh at level 16?
EPIC black dragon helm/armor/destinies at level 16?

Level 16... I don't think that means what you think it means.

My bad

voodoogroves
03-09-2013, 01:57 PM
What axe is she swinging?

One of the sad truths of this game is that there's a lack of BTA or easily accessible greataxes in this level range. She may want to consider re-setting her AP until she can get something with more oomph.

There are plenty of great sub ML 8 greataxes, but really they drop off in the higher levels until you get to epics.

LOOON375
03-09-2013, 02:07 PM
As long as you start with a decent Constitution score, 16 minimum, and put as many as you can into strength to include level ups, you will be fine. Throw the rest of the points into dex.

Then after you and your wife play the game over a good period of time, you can always go back and lower reincarnate to change stuff around to better suit your/her play style.

I guess the main thing will be to make sure you pick the right feats and enhancements while leveling up. All the relevant prerequisites are shown in red when you mouse over the Kensaii PRE in the enhancement section of your character sheet. Seeing how she is already a Kensaii two, Ill just assume you have that part down.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the damage number too much. The numbers will eventually get better.

Good luck and have fun.

Thayion516
03-09-2013, 02:36 PM
Ship Buffs and Self Buffs. 54 STR. Lv 16 (10ftr/6barb). +5 Greatsword. (No Power Surge yet.)
36 point TR.
A good Base Line.

voodoogroves
03-09-2013, 02:41 PM
Ship Buffs and Self Buffs. 54 STR. Lv 16 (10ftr/6barb). +5 Greatsword. (No Power Surge yet.)
36 point TR.
A good Base Line.

Seriously? You think this is a "good baseline" for a 28 point first lifer?


I'm trying to help my Mrs build her 1st life 28 point build dwarf fighter.

Therigar
03-09-2013, 02:43 PM
Figuring 1.5[d12] weapons with sustainable self buffed STR of 34 in a duo where no other buffs are available, taking into account all available dwarven enhancements and all feat selections, and then putting it all together -- average damage should be ~60.

15 -- +5 weapon damage (1.5[d12]+5=14.75 round up to 15)
18 -- STR 34 strength bonus (34-10=24/2=12*1.5=18)
04 -- weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization
04 -- Kensai I and II
04 -- dwarf axe damage I and II (great axe effect)
10 -- power attack
02 -- Dakhaani vigor
--
57

STR is based on

18 -- starting value
04 -- stat increases
06 -- STR item
03 -- fighter enhancements
02 -- ship buff
01 -- tome or exceptional or enhanced bonus
--
34

Temporary boosts to STR might be

02 -- rage
08 -- power surge
--
10

That is another +5 damage making the average damage somewhere between 57 and 62 per hit before taking into account elemental, alignment or bane type damages.

Therigar
03-09-2013, 02:54 PM
Regarding weapons, you might want to try for an Alchemical Greataxe (http://ddowiki.com/page/Alchemical_Greataxe). It is ML12 and is +5 with 2[d12] damage (18 base damage).

oradafu
03-09-2013, 03:24 PM
It's nice to see someone, in this case Voxson5, keeping things honest/realistic in this thread.

I love how people are answering a question about the damage from a level 16 Dwarf fighter are including Horc enhancements, Epic Destiny enhancements, level 18+ gear and other inappropriate stuff.

Jasparion
03-09-2013, 03:27 PM
It's nice to see someone, in this case Voxson5, keeping things honest/realistic in this thread.

I love how people are answering a question about the damage from a level 16 Dwarf fighter are including Horc enhancements, Epic Destiny enhancements, level 18+ gear and other inappropriate stuff.

My favourite bit was the level 20 Raid loot.

So to summarise: somewhere in the 50-ish range per swing is what you should aim for. If youre getting in the 40s, then youre doing okay.

Milikki
03-09-2013, 04:41 PM
.....So I usually stay raged up to around 50+ STR most of the time.
.....
+2 rage potion

Do rage pots stack with rage or is this just more forum numbers inflation?

LOOON375
03-09-2013, 04:50 PM
Do rage pots stack with rage or is this just more forum numbers inflation?With barbarian rage, yes. Rage pots do not stack with the rage spell, since they are the same.

Jatner
03-10-2013, 06:21 AM
Thanks for the extra feedback - is Power Attack worth getting as a feat? The wiki seemed a little undecided about whether it was a benefit overall with the loss of 5 to hit.

The strength 34 calculation was pretty much spot on, although we only have a +1 ship shrine.

She's currently swinging a random loot +4 greataxe so we're losing a little damage per swing there. I was looking at running challenges for the Antique Greataxe but I'm not sure she'll be willing to run those after helping me farm out rogue items on cove all week

**Edit** Just checked on the wiki and it has the AGA as ML4 so maybe not... I just assumed it would be closer to the EAGA

cru121
03-10-2013, 06:38 AM
power attack is ABSOLUTELY necessary on a two handed fighters
challenge greataxe, you're probably talking about http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_Greataxe_of_Fire, pretty nice stuff

Jatner
03-10-2013, 06:48 AM
You're right about the axe. I can only blame it still being early and pre-coffee!

The ML16 challenge axe does look very tasty. I assume the "craftable +3" on the T3 version means that we can use Cannith Crafting to add another effect on top of the ones listed - assuming we can find a guildy with a decent crafting level to make an unbound shard to apply.

Charononus
03-10-2013, 07:02 AM
You're right about the axe. I can only blame it still being early and pre-coffee!

The ML16 challenge axe does look very tasty. I assume the "craftable +3" on the T3 version means that we can use Cannith Crafting to add another effect on top of the ones listed - assuming we can find a guildy with a decent crafting level to make an unbound shard to apply.

Some may disagree with me but until level 20 I don't think there is any reason to make the challenge greataxe. The reason is that it does mostly fire damage and doesn't break good dr. At level 16 this is ok for the most part as lvl 16 is gianthold and necro 4 and relatively little is immune to fire at that point. However at level 18 when you get into the vale of twilight everything is immune to fire, you still have your light damage but the other problem is most things start getting dr/good and (I may be wrong here as ddo wiki doesn't show the enhancement level for a holy shard) +3 crafting can't get holy on it. (based off of acid being a +3 shard and holy doing more than acid does)

noinfo
03-10-2013, 07:18 AM
Some may disagree with me but until level 20 I don't think there is any reason to make the challenge greataxe. The reason is that it does mostly fire damage and doesn't break good dr. At level 16 this is ok for the most part as lvl 16 is gianthold and necro 4 and relatively little is immune to fire at that point. However at level 18 when you get into the vale of twilight everything is immune to fire, you still have your light damage but the other problem is most things start getting dr/good and (I may be wrong here as ddo wiki doesn't show the enhancement level for a holy shard) +3 crafting can't get holy on it. (based off of acid being a +3 shard and holy doing more than acid does)

Holy is only +2 IIRC so you should be able too. Or righteousness +1

Charononus
03-10-2013, 07:30 AM
Holy is only +2 IIRC so you should be able too. Or righteousness +1

I'll stand corrected on that then, I still say with all the fire damage being negated a holy silver of evil outsider bane is probably a much better weapon.

Thayion516
03-10-2013, 07:54 AM
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave and Improved Critical are MUST HAVE for any 2 Handed Weapons. MUST HAVE.

The teir 3 LV 12 and LV16 Great Axe of Fire has Metalline (all metal type DR Breaker) and +3 Crafting for Holy to break All relevant DR.

As far as I know only things in Vale that are immune to fire are the Devils, Fire Elemental (including 1 Boss) and Golums. Pretty standard stuff. But that is disregarding the Harbinger of Madness chain (Lv 15 but very much farmable till 18), Web of Chaos chain (LV 16), Reign of Madness chain (lv 17), Reavers Refuge (lv 17), Inspired Quarter chain (lv18). Fire Damage and the Incineration proc work just fine in all those.

So overall: Greataxe of Fire is a fine weapon till Lv 21. Beware tho .. Adding Holy will INCREASE ML by +2. so it will end up ML 18. Make the Lv 12 version Teir 3 for Holy/Metalline DR Breaker and Upgrade it as you level.

Therigar
03-10-2013, 12:18 PM
power attack is ABSOLUTELY necessary on a two handed fighters
challenge greataxe, you're probably talking about http://ddowiki.com/page/Elemental_Greataxe_of_Fire, pretty nice stuff

I'm referring to the alchemical weapons that start as blanks with a 2[W] damage profile. You then add to their characteristics with added effects with alchemical crafting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Alchemical_Crafting).

I am pretty sure that this is different from the Elemental Greataxe of Fire but don't have one, so not 100%. Might be that they change from alchemical to elemental with tier 1 crafting.

The alchemical greataxe with triple air effects would be my targeted build.

Therigar
03-10-2013, 12:24 PM
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave and Improved Critical are MUST HAVE for any 2 Handed Weapons. MUST HAVE.

Fighters have so many feats available that it is really questionable if they do not have PA even if they don't use it all of the time. PA is a prerequisite for Cleave which is needed to get Great Cleave.

Cleave and Great Cleave, along with Improved Critical, are prerequisites to the epic feat Overwhelming Critical.

No competent THF fighter is going to go without that feat combination.

Jatner
03-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Ahh if Power Attack is a requirement for Cleave we must have already taken it and forgotten about it. Guess we just need to activate and forget again.

We're both premium players and don't have all the packs yet so the Aligned Greataxe is out for now. Even the challenge axe is going to take some serious grind using daily tokens - at least until the pack goes on sale. Until then we'll just keep scanning the AH for a +5 holy of something.

I won't even bother putting up a separate thread for my rogue - I know that build is beyond saving until I can get hold of a +3 dex tome and make a few visits to Fred

bhgiant
03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
Even the challenge axe is going to take some serious grind using daily tokens - at least until the pack goes on sale. Until then we'll just keep scanning the AH for a +5 holy of something.

I bought the challenge pack on sale. It's been a good investment for me. The loot is somewhat of a grind and some of the challenges are downright frustrating but after a few runs, you can get a groove down and the ingredients roll in quickly. Some of that loot is well worth it too.

Until then, I recommend just banking the daily tokens until you have ~10 and then choosing a challenge to run for that day. It's what I'm currently doing to get my Wolf Cloak and it works well.

On a side note, have you thought of asking someone to craft an axe for you? If you're on Gland I can help you out.

voodoogroves
03-10-2013, 12:59 PM
Find her the best holy of good or holy of bloodletting you CAn find.

Purkilius
03-10-2013, 01:28 PM
You're right about the axe. I can only blame it still being early and pre-coffee!

The ML16 challenge axe does look very tasty. I assume the "craftable +3" on the T3 version means that we can use Cannith Crafting to add another effect on top of the ones listed - assuming we can find a guildy with a decent crafting level to make an unbound shard to apply.

Hey you can craft holy (+2) and bleed (+1) on it both of them are +3 and with that you break good dr and the weapon will serve as a fine trash beater even on epic levels. With cleave and great cleave this weapon is going to do some drooling dmg :)

Sojourner
03-10-2013, 02:35 PM
Ahh if Power Attack is a requirement for Cleave we must have already taken it and forgotten about it. Guess we just need to activate and forget again.

Power Attack will turn itself off every time you log out of the game, so make sure to hotbar it so you can turn it back on first thing you do when you log in.