PDA

View Full Version : Oh Hirelings: Divine Hires. Clerics and Favored Souls: Selection and Use.



Thayion516
03-05-2013, 08:41 AM
Just a heads up to any new or newish players out there. I have been TRing my main guy for 3 years now and im on life #7 currently. I use hirelings often thru my builds and have found some of them to be quite good. I primarily play Melee builds as they are the ones who need a hire mostly.

As i have found, in general, Some hirelings perform MUCH better then others. Some hires are very lazy or their priority code seems to be messed up. But other hirelings work Hard to keep you and the group alive, even performing better then actual players at times.

Generally speaking, a FVS will have more mana then a Cleric hireling and will have a slightly more aggressive spell selection. One of the Clerics best way to heal groups is with Aura Bursts (with the Radiant Savant Prestige Class), so hireling Clerics do not have this ability so they are by nature weaker at healing. The Favored Souls can heal for more for a longer time due to their larger mana pools when the Cleric Aura Bursts are removed from the table.

However that is not saying that FVS are defiantly better then Cleric hirelings. There are some very good Cleric hirelings as well.

Another thing to consider is the Aggressive (Crossed Swords on the hotbar) and Defensive (Sheild on hotbar) commands. The Aggressive command makes the hireling interact with enemies and players more often. They should continuously be looking for a target to interact with in Aggro mode, be it a Cometfall or a Heal. This mode often burns mana faster then the defensive mode due to continuous casting. Toggle this on when ur fast paced and need extra actions to assist the party and mana is not an issue (like there is alot of Shrines, such as Gwaylan's Stand).

In Defensive mode, a Hire should only act if a party member or its self is interacted with first. And often healing or cureing with be the first thing they will do, followed up with maybe a damage spell. This is the "Sit back and take care of me and the party" mode. Mana will last longer as the hireling is reactive instead of proactive. Use this mode when u want the hire to conserve mana and u need them for the long haul (like Tears of Drakkan).

PRO TIP: Call your Hireling to you Often! YOU are in control. In the end, they are just Pets. They sometimes get into trouble and stand their ground when they need to run, or get busy doing something else. CALL them and make them run to you so u can protect them or reset their actions. This is the biggest mistake i see anyone doing to their hirelings. Bad players expect them to be 100% effeciant on their own, this is False. A Hireling is merely a controllable Pet, treat is as such.

I will list the hirelings i use as i level as i have found them very responsive and useful to the group. (Note: Under Level 7, Cure Serious Potions will heals for similar amounts as Divine spell healing.. Buy a stack of healing pots and use them as u run quests in between fights to assist with survivabilty)

Level 3 = Marduk Whitegrave. Favored Soul. He has alot of mana for his Level and in Aggro mode he uses Command often keep opponents down. Makes killing easy. Responsive on the Healing also.

LV 5 = Aunidil Tor'val, Favored Soul. A GREAT Agro healer. She is prolly the first "Good" hireling, drops Command and Soundburst often to stun enemies making them easy kills. She can solo Waterworks on her own given enough time. She also is responsive with healing. She is rather overzealous with her mana and burns it quickly if u let her. Switch between Aggro and Defensive to save mana.

LV 5 = Kendra Estleton, Cleric. A great Healing hireling. She often takes care of my whole party as they rampage thru zones. She has a good spell selection for keeping a party healthy. Keep her in aggro mode, she has limited damage spells so they will not eat into her mana much, but she will continuously take care of the group.

LV6 = Arias Oreth, Cleric. A good balance of aggro and defenisive from a cleric. Uses soundbust to AE stun and then usually turns to healing as needed. Keep in aggro mode.

Lv 8 ..... Nimeth Celibel, Favored Soul. ... This hire is one of those Amazing Hirelings. She Soundbursts, Commands, Smites, Heals, Damages, Stays away from the fight (she is a Archer i think), Cures and Lesser Restores. BEWARE tho .. she guzzles mana. Often I keep her on Defensive and turn her to Agrro when i need the extra Kick in a big fight. She also has high stats in Wisdom and Charisma. She can do both runes in Elite Drakkan and runes in Xoriate Cypher. Awesome. I'd take her on a date if i could.

LV 10. Fayden Maeleth, Cleirc and Ruthok Hourig, FVS. Both of these hires do a good job. Responsive and with good stats. In a turn of events, Fayden is who I will actually use in a Agressive roll with just spamming Call and Flamestrike. Then allowing her to heal after the bad guys are turned to ash. Ruth is a good healer with a large mana pool. Got to watch him tho as he likes to melee (Call will keep him close).

LV 12 ... Tanya Brightstone, another great Favored Soul. She is like Nimeth's older sister. She uses Smite and Greater Command to immobilize whole groups of baddies as you and your group pound them into the ground. Or use her Blade Barrier to chop down groups as they come at you. Backed up with Heals she brings alot to the table. Again tho, She uses a lot of mana, it has to be managed in long distances with no shrines.

Lv 14. Beleth Voric, Cleric. A good healing hireling. In Aggro mode she watches over the group well with her Mass healing and Heal. Calling her to you and then Cometfalling is a good tactic also.

Level 15 Favored Soul.. Larafay Do'rret. Probably the Best Hireling in game. She is a walking death machine that casts 300+ point Heals liberally as she wrecks the battlefeild with Destruction (insta kill spell) and Cometfall. Often out Killing players in my PUGs thru Giant Hold, she is a force to be dealt with. Only issue with Lara is her 2600 mana (1800 base + 4 mana pots) often are not enough to state her bloodlust. Use Shrines often lol! Again, putting her in Defensive will slow her down some... but F that! Kill em all Lara!

Lv 18. Merenon Lior, FVS. Actually Mer is a good Melee Divine. He has good stats with HPs and AC, which allows him to hold his own in a fight. Casting Mass Heal as needed to keep the party alive. I usually Call him to me alot as in Aggro he will attack any bad guys he sees.

Lv 19. Caraneth Myar, Favored Soul. Man, whats the deal with these upper teen FVS? They just outclass the clerics! This is another nice responsive aggressive divine that gets the job done. Cara being loaded with Implosion is huge. Put her on Aggro and Spam it for insta-death to most of the baddies within Vale. After she turn all the opposition inside-out, she will go about dropping Heals where needed. Implosion, Firestorm and Efereet Pet make her nice in RR and IQ.

These are who I use as I've been on my TR train. I have not experimented much with the Epic level hireling, but i hear some are quite good also. I hope to correct that as I cap out both Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought on my Fighter/Barb this life.

Hope this helps out any new players or any questions of how to use/select hirelings. Anyone who wants to add any information is more then happy to.

bonscott87
03-05-2013, 09:08 AM
I love the FVS hirelings too but on my current toon I'm a wizard and I've become addicted to the Clerics that have Divine Vitality. Love them being able to re-fill my blue bar in between shrines.

Drelak
03-06-2013, 01:37 AM
I have noticed that the Drow clerics (at least Maloren lvl 4 and Arias Oreth lvl 6) have some INT allowing them to use INT runes
in Recovering the Lost tome (lightning traps and extra chest) and Rescuing Arlos (secret prisoners optional).

FranOhmsford
03-06-2013, 02:09 AM
Just a heads up to any new or newish players out there. I have been TRing my main guy for 3 years now and im on life #7 currently. I use hirelings often thru my builds and have found some of them to be quite good. I primarily play Melee builds as they are the ones who need a hire mostly.

40+ Characters past Lvl 10 1st life, 5 Epic Level Currently, 4 2nd Life TRs {I use Hirelings ALL the time} and I'm sorry but there's so much here I totally disagree with


As i have found, in general, Some hirelings perform MUCH better then others. Some hires are very lazy or their priority code seems to be messed up. But other hirelings work Hard to keep you and the group alive, even performing better then actual players at times.

Agreed


Generally speaking, a FVS will have more mana then a Cleric hireling and will have a slightly more aggressive spell selection. One of the Clerics best way to heal groups is with Aura Bursts (with the Radiant Savant Prestige Class), so hireling Clerics do not have this ability so they are by nature weaker at healing. The Favored Souls can heal for more for a longer time due to their larger mana pools when the Cleric Aura Bursts are removed from the table.

However that is not saying that FVS are defiantly better then Cleric hirelings. There are some very good Cleric hirelings as well.

In the main I've found FavSoul hirelings to be nowhere near as good as Clerics - Obviously exceptions exist {Larafay D'Orret being the most blindingly obvious of these


Another thing to consider is the Aggressive (Crossed Swords on the hotbar) and Defensive (Sheild on hotbar) commands. The Aggressive command makes the hireling interact with enemies and players more often. They should continuously be looking for a target to interact with in Aggro mode, be it a Cometfall or a Heal. This mode often burns mana faster then the defensive mode due to continuous casting. Toggle this on when ur fast paced and need extra actions to assist the party and mana is not an issue (like there is alot of Shrines, such as Gwaylan's Stand).

In Defensive mode, a Hire should only act if a party member or its self is interacted with first. And often healing or cureing with be the first thing they will do, followed up with maybe a damage spell. This is the "Sit back and take care of me and the party" mode. Mana will last longer as the hireling is reactive instead of proactive. Use this mode when u want the hire to conserve mana and u need them for the long haul (like Tears of Drakkan).

PRO TIP: Call your Hireling to you Often! YOU are in control. In the end, they are just Pets. They sometimes get into trouble and stand their ground when they need to run, or get busy doing something else. CALL them and make them run to you so u can protect them or reset their actions. This is the biggest mistake i see anyone doing to their hirelings. Bad players expect them to be 100% effeciant on their own, this is False. A Hireling is merely a controllable Pet, treat is as such.

I've found Defensive mode to be mainly useless - I only ever switch to defensive to lose the regular glitch where hireling becomes inattentive {switching immediately back to aggressive}


I will list the hirelings i use as i level as i have found them very responsive and useful to the group. (Note: Under Level 7, Cure Serious Potions will heals for similar amounts as Divine spell healing.. Buy a stack of healing pots and use them as u run quests in between fights to assist with survivabilty)

Level 3 = Marduk Whitegrave. Favored Soul. He has alot of mana for his Level and in Aggro mode he uses Command often keep opponents down. Makes killing easy. Responsive on the Healing also.

Lvl 3 = Erythyn Veridyn for me {Nothing against Marduk but Eryhtyn is so good that I've never needed to use anyone else


LV 5 = Aunidil Tor'val, Favored Soul. A GREAT Agro healer. She is prolly the first "Good" hireling, drops Command and Soundburst often to stun enemies making them easy kills. She can solo Waterworks on her own given enough time. She also is responsive with healing. She is rather overzealous with her mana and burns it quickly if u let her. Switch between Aggro and Defensive to save mana.

Aunidil does use up a lot of mana on Soundburst - She can heal too BUT I wouldn't even put her in the same league as.....


LV 5 = Kendra Estleton, Cleric. A great Healing hireling. She often takes care of my whole party as they rampage thru zones. She has a good spell selection for keeping a party healthy. Keep her in aggro mode, she has limited damage spells so they will not eat into her mana much, but she will continuously take care of the group.

Superb Hireling - One of the best there is - Did get nerfed heavily in Update 8 or 9


LV6 = Arias Oreth, Cleric. A good balance of aggro and defenisive from a cleric. Uses soundbust to AE stun and then usually turns to healing as needed. Keep in aggro mode.

Much prefer Mareth Lorestryn myself


Lv 8 ..... Nimeth Celibel, Favored Soul. ... This hire is one of those Amazing Hirelings. She Soundbursts, Commands, Smites, Heals, Damages, Stays away from the fight (she is a Archer i think), Cures and Lesser Restores. BEWARE tho .. she guzzles mana. Often I keep her on Defensive and turn her to Agrro when i need the extra Kick in a big fight. She also has high stats in Wisdom and Charisma. She can do both runes in Elite Drakkan and runes in Xoriate Cypher. Awesome. I'd take her on a date if i could.

Goes through mana even faster than Aunidil - Yes I like her too BUT she's frankly the best of a very bad bunch at Lvl 8 {Fergus being one of the worst Divine hirelings in the game}


LV 10. Fayden Maeleth, Cleirc and Ruthok Hourig, FVS. Both of these hires do a good job. Responsive and with good stats. In a turn of events, Fayden is who I will actually use in a Agressive roll with just spamming Call and Flamestrike. Then allowing her to heal after the bad guys are turned to ash. Ruth is a good healer with a large mana pool. Got to watch him tho as he likes to melee (Call will keep him close).

Fayden doesn't cast Flame Strike by herself! You have to cast it from her bar! She is incredibly squishy {Amazingly the Lvl 11 Arkyn is even squishier} and Turn Undead is totally useless on a Hireling.
All this without mentioning that Flame Strike is a truly terrible spell in DDO!

As for Ruthok? No Just No! - One of the worst Hirelings I've ever run with!

Marissa Lorle {Lvl 9 Cleric Hireling with DV} and Samuel Merrick {Lvl 9 Cleric Hireling without DV} are both more than capable of carrying on through Lvl 10 and 11 Content and Superb Hirelings!


LV 12 ... Tanya Brightstone, another great Favored Soul. She is like Nimeth's older sister. She uses Smite and Greater Command to immobilize whole groups of baddies as you and your group pound them into the ground. Or use her Blade Barrier to chop down groups as they come at you. Backed up with Heals she brings alot to the table. Again tho, She uses a lot of mana, it has to be managed in long distances with no shrines.

Another FavSoul hireling who thinks she's DPS - Yeah she does nice dmg {BUT unlike Larafay doesn't compete with Arcane Hirelings for this}.
Unfortunately her healing {Unlike Larafay's} leaves a lot to be desired!

A much better choice for Lvl 12 is Miranda {Cleric with DV} - Surprisingly she also seems to have higher HP and SP than the other Lvl 12 Cleric Hire - Flagon Moren {who's main use is as a Blade Barrier spammer in certain quests - Coyle!}


Lv 14. Beleth Voric, Cleric. A good healing hireling. In Aggro mode she watches over the group well with her Mass healing and Heal. Calling her to you and then Cometfalling is a good tactic also.

You have to be kidding me?
Who uses Beleth over Tempys?
Mass Deathward trumps Cometfall any day of the week, Tempys has DV - Beleth doesn't!

Also the Lvl 13 FavSoul - Duerim Guardwell - Has Mass DW too and is a very good hire in his own right!


Level 15 Favored Soul.. Larafay Do'rret. Probably the Best Hireling in game. She is a walking death machine that casts 300+ point Heals liberally as she wrecks the battlefeild with Destruction (insta kill spell) and Cometfall. Often out Killing players in my PUGs thru Giant Hold, she is a force to be dealt with. Only issue with Lara is her 2600 mana (1800 base + 4 mana pots) often are not enough to state her bloodlust. Use Shrines often lol! Again, putting her in Defensive will slow her down some... but F that! Kill em all Lara!

Please keep this on the down-low - We don't want the devs getting ideas about nerfing Larafay!


Lv 18. Merenon Lior, FVS. Actually Mer is a good Melee Divine. He has good stats with HPs and AC, which allows him to hold his own in a fight. Casting Mass Heal as needed to keep the party alive. I usually Call him to me alot as in Aggro he will attack any bad guys he sees.

Merenon or Heystack? 40/60 in favour of Heystack in my view


Lv 19. Caraneth Myar, Favored Soul. Man, whats the deal with these upper teen FVS? They just outclass the clerics! This is another nice responsive aggressive divine that gets the job done. Cara being loaded with Implosion is huge. Put her on Aggro and Spam it for insta-death to most of the baddies within Vale. After she turn all the opposition inside-out, she will go about dropping Heals where needed. Implosion, Firestorm and Efereet Pet make her nice in RR and IQ.

There was a time when Caraneth was the BEST Hireling in the game!
Then the Devs nerfed her bad!
Now there's no way I'd ever take her ahead of Klin Stegen and Hezzy!


These are who I use as I've been on my TR train. I have not experimented much with the Epic level hireling, but i hear some are quite good also. I hope to correct that as I cap out both Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought on my Fighter/Barb this life.

Hope this helps out any new players or any questions of how to use/select hirelings. Anyone who wants to add any information is more then happy to.

Epic FavSoul Hirelings:
Selis - Awful!
Luna - Meh!
Brec - Nice HP BUT Heals so slow it's ridiculous!
None of the above have Deathward and being FavSouls = No DV either!

Lvl 20 Hirelings = Wyoh vs Albus
I can have this argument all day long but I will defend Wyoh to the death!
She has her foibles and like all hirelings can glitch out at the worst possible times - She's also quite squishy {Augment Summoning makes this a non-issue}.
BUT she's a heck of a lot faster to heal players than Albus!
No she doesn't have Deathward BUT DW is no use if you don't get timely heals anyway!

Plus: Her Implosion actually works well!

FranOhmsford
03-06-2013, 02:20 AM
Also - No mention of...

Lvl 1 - Riana Montague {Rogue} - Simply Superb!

Lvl 4 - Lairon Hester {Bard}, Aidren Rumrunner {Wizard} - Both very good hires - Lairon is in my view a better healer than either Maloren {Worst Cleric Hire in the game} or Burak {FvS}
Plus - Kurik Forgewarden {One of the few Melee hirelings worth anything}.

Lvl 7 - The best Healing FvS hire in the game - Zaghar Everstar!

Lvl 8 - Flare {WF Sorc - Fantastic WF Healer and Great Arcane hireling for all}

Lvl 10 - Anvil {WF Fighter}

Lvl 11 - Roshan {another good FvS hire}

Lvl 13 - Fira Greylocke {Rogue}, Barrage {Wizard with Haste, GH, Firewall and Reconstruct - What more can you ask for?}

Lvl 14 - Sigil {Another Fantastic WF Healer and Arcane hire for all}

Lvl 16 - Isadora Ironclaw & Natasha Thorsten {Both Superb}

Lvl 18 - Lalisa Forestwing {Wizard with GH}

Uska
03-06-2013, 02:27 AM
Thumbs up for trying to do something to help people sorry no rep left today.

Me I hate hirelings their stupid and die to much but I play solo/team builds a lot. But I can see this helping people that like or want a hireling, keep up the good work.

FranOhmsford
03-06-2013, 02:32 AM
BTW

2 Hirelings that are currently broken...

Zeran Hamsterherder {Lvl 5 Wizard} - I'd LOVE his Spell Selection at Lvl 5!
Don't go by JUST what's on his bar - Try him out and see what I mean!

Kelorn Gossinar {Lvl 5 Rogue Mech} - Hey Devs, How do you get Rogue Mech prestige at Lvl 5?

st0rmcr0vv
03-06-2013, 10:20 AM
A few items for your consideration. Not sure how detailed you want to get with this...

- Flagon Moren; level 12 Cleric has Blade barrier if you plan on grouping up mobs before taking them out. Handy for taking out large groups of trash mobs.

- Hires will usually run to you when you call them. Jumping off of high structures, tops of stairs\crates, over chasms or pools of water while calling them to you will usually proc an immediate teleport to you, helping them avoid bypassed traps\monsters and lava.

- (didn't see it but it's probably the most important imo) PARK your hire (the "split" icon) before running through a trap (assuming it cant be disabled) or before a big fight if you want to keep him\her out of the action for heals\rezzes. Depending on their stance they may run to engage enemies or heal the party even while parked. This is also handy to keep them out of your way while you're working on a puzzle.

- Guarding: Hires can be assigned to "guard" a party member, NPC or other hire. Especially useful when having to defend a squishy NPC. NPC can only be "guarded" after they enter combat mode (testing might be needed to confirm this)

- They're buggy: If your hire isn't automatically healing\engaging targets or taking orders (etc), switch stances and\or call them to you. I noticed they get stuck sometimes and need to be "rebooted".

- Hires cannot drown but will take damage from traps and lava! Some will get stuck in lava pits in various areas so parking them or "hand holding" (take a few steps and call them until you're through the area) may be necessary.

- Hires can work levers, doors and stat runes. If you don't have the required stat on a PC, let your hire have a go at it. It seems that some of the cleric hires have an extraordinarily high INT score (for some reason) so there may be other odd, unknown, high stats on other hires as well.

- A hireling's timer will start once they are summoned the first time and run while in quests and wilderness areas. The timer pauses when in a "public instance". Left over time will tick down during the next entry to a quest\area even if you summon a different hire or no hire at all. Placing them in the bank will preserve them while running other quests. Hires don't leave an instance when their time expires but their contract will disappear so as long as you have enough time to summon them they will stay through the whole quest. Anecdotal: It seems that hires are more prone to "lazing" or going inactive the further over the timer you are.

- Sometimes a hireling a level or two below your level will be more appropriate than the hire the same level as you. Also dont over look hires with Divine Vitality even if you don't have a blue bar. Some will have good buffs (as was mentioned, Deathward Mass is a nice buff to have in many cases)

- It's usually a best practice to ask the group\group leader if they don't mind before you summon a hireling. Most groups probably wont mind as long as you keep it on a leash but some purists might want to run with only human "AI". "Shortmanning" a quest without a hire can be a fun challenge.

- Don't get too spoiled: Hires are a great way to tool around by yourself and in short man groups but many real LIVE divines (or even other casting classes) wont appreciate being treated like dedicated "keep-you-aliver"s or full time buffers. So a good practice would be to "role-play" that your hire is a real player, watch their mana bars to verify that you're not draining them (unless you're spamming damage spells), don't leave them behind to get beat on by a group of monsters or let them keep aggro for very long (probably a good idea all together) and keep the name calling at a minimum :). This way you aren't reenforcing bad behavior (that will get you squelched) when you solo.

FranOhmsford
03-07-2013, 05:44 AM
- A hireling's timer will start once they are summoned the first time and run while in quests and wilderness areas. The timer pauses when in a "public instance". Left over time will tick down during the next entry to a quest\area even if you summon a different hire or no hire at all. Placing them in the bank will preserve them while running other quests. Hires don't leave an instance when their time expires but their contract will disappear so as long as you have enough time to summon them they will stay through the whole quest. Anecdotal: It seems that hires are more prone to "lazing" or going inactive the further over the timer you are.

One addition - Character Bank ONLY!
Unfortunately the Shared Bank doesn't work properly - When you take the contract out of the bank it will instantly disappear if it was on timer!
Enough times to be a real issue {even if Not every single time}!


- Sometimes a hireling a level or two below your level will be more appropriate than the hire the same level as you. Also dont over look hires with Divine Vitality even if you don't have a blue bar. Some will have good buffs (as was mentioned, Deathward Mass is a nice buff to have in many cases)

Fantastic advice!
As I posted above - Marissa and Samuel {Lvl 9} are far superior Healer Hirelings to Fayden or Ruthok {Lvl 10} OR even to Arkyn {Lvl 11}!
Tempys Lorben {Lvl 14} is massively superior to Jatrina Sartosa {Lvl 15}!
Natasha Thorsten {Lvl 16} is much much better than Ayron Staliya {Lvl 17}!
All Epic FavSouls {21-23 at least} are Way Worse than Wyoh {Lvl 20} or Klin {Lvl 19}!

Rogue Hirelings - Those specced as Rogue Mechs are vastly superior trappers to those specced as Acrobats or Assassins!
It's quite easy to tell from their descriptions most of the time {And many of them have a Prestige ability on their bar too}.


- It's usually a best practice to ask the group\group leader if they don't mind before you summon a hireling. Most groups probably wont mind as long as you keep it on a leash but some purists might want to run with only human "AI". "Shortmanning" a quest without a hire can be a fun challenge.

When I join a Group that either looks like it's going to be Shortman or Already IP I type -
"Mind if I pull {Link Hireling}?"
I do this EVEN WHEN the leader has a hireling out!
It's only polite to ask {and sometimes the leader may be using the same hireling as you too}.



- Don't get too spoiled: Hires are a great way to tool around by yourself and in short man groups but many real LIVE divines (or even other casting classes) wont appreciate being treated like dedicated "keep-you-aliver"s or full time buffers. So a good practice would be to "role-play" that your hire is a real player, watch their mana bars to verify that you're not draining them (unless you're spamming damage spells), don't leave them behind to get beat on by a group of monsters or let them keep aggro for very long (probably a good idea all together) and keep the name calling at a minimum :). This way you aren't reenforcing bad behavior (that will get you squelched) when you solo.

Love it!
Hirelings are People too!
Keep them Happy {and Never make fun of Flower's Name!}!

AbyssalMage
03-07-2013, 06:20 AM
Ok, learning here so keep it civil :)

Why are you grabbing a DW hireling (read below for my misunderstanding)?

I am trying to think of those level ranges and why you need DW when DB works just as good. I know DW blocks negative levels but the only NPC's that both kill you and cast negative levels are Beholders and DW is not effective vs. them. The only chain that I can think of that spams Negative levels (which makes DW better) is the Coin Lord Plaza chain. My other thought would be Sands pack, but I see less and less people doing them, saving them for ED farming. Alas, making DW at this level range less valuable (I.E. It's there if you happen to run Sands/Plaza, but the spell is useless more often than not). Necro II/III is in this level range but casters tend to spam DPS spells, not negative level spells. And BB/AoE is so juice against tons of NPC's trying to surround you.

FranOhmsford
03-07-2013, 06:33 AM
Ok, learning here so keep it civil :)

Why are you grabbing a DW hireling (read below for my misunderstanding)?

I am trying to think of those level ranges and why you need DW when DB works just as good. I know DW blocks negative levels but the only NPC's that both kill you and cast negative levels are Beholders and DW is not effective vs. them. The only chain that I can think of that spams Negative levels (which makes DW better) is the Coin Lord Plaza chain. My other thought would be Sands pack, but I see less and less people doing them, saving them for ED farming. Alas, making DW at this level range less valuable (I.E. It's there if you happen to run Sands/Plaza, but the spell is useless more often than not). Necro II/III is in this level range but casters tend to spam DPS spells, not negative level spells. And BB/AoE is so juice against tons of NPC's trying to surround you.

Negative Level spamming is getting more and more ubiquitous in game!

Wraiths, Wights, Spectres, Vampires have always Negged us!

Beholders neg us too BUT as you say DW is useless vs these!

Nowadays - Every d@rn caster above Lvl 8 {Elites} seems to have Enervation available {At later Levels they get Energy Drain!}!

Deathward is an absolute must have in Elite at Level quests by Level 14 - The first DW Hireling is Duerim Guardwell {Lvl 13 FS} and I'd definitely love to see The Level 12/13 Clerics get this spell too!

The only other way to get DW other than having a Divine in party is to farm Tangleroot for the Visor of the Flesh Render Guards! {a once per rest 5 minute clickie!}!

http://ddowiki.com/page/Death_Ward

http://ddowiki.com/page/Death_Ward,_Mass
BTW according to this second Link - Neither Duerim nor Tempys should have the Mass version of this spell {they do} so clearly they're scroll casting it on us!

bonscott87
03-07-2013, 10:08 AM
DW is certainly helpful against Beholders. Sure it'll get removed should you get debuffed or hit by the anti-magic, but guess what, it absorbed *something* which gives you some time to hit it hard or get a couple spells off yourself and then let your Deathblock take over for the rest of the battle. But to say it's useless is wrong.

Thayion516
03-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Seems like we all have differing opinions on how the Hireling system here in DDO works. Some are good, Some are bad. But it also strikes me on personal playstyle would effect an opinion on how effective a hire is for players as well. I could see how some players would play a traditional healer/melee/mage mindset, some may even be so aggressive in playstyle they may just choose DPS from a hire mage over a divine.

Over the years I'v played, I have a few TRS and my main at 7 TRs on his way to completionist, so I have seen the pre 20 game at least 10 or 11 times. As I have developed in DDO, I'v discovered I'm melee oriented and agressive with wanting high DPS, well as high as I can get with a well equipted/farmed toon. I want to be active in combat. I want to be in the front.

Now, this mindset probably is what draws me to some hires over others. I personally enjoy a FVS who does alot of actions as i beat up anything in sight. Gather mobs for Flamestrikes, Soundbursts, Greater Commands, Blade Barriers. The mana useage is rarely a problem for me as bad guys usually go down quickly and combat is not prolonged more then a few seconds.

Thats more then likely why I enjoy Hires who do more actions then just Healing. I Expect them to assist me in the kill. Aggressive is a good thing IMO. Because in the end .. Im the Boss.. I can always put a leash on them. Whereas its almost impossible to motivate them if a specific hire has a code/play problem and is lazy.

As far as Death Ward goes. I can get Death Block on an item and is cast clicky from Visors of the Fleshrender from a easy to complete series. So i have that covered. Hire Divines only get like 5 or 6 spells (with 1 or 2 hidden from the hotbar), so i would reather not waste a slot on a effect i can easily reproduce myself. I need for them to do stuff I can not do.

.. and TY Fran for your input lol. Glad to see at least some others are thinking of hires alot. They are a large part of the Combat in this game and as such, some thought and guidance should be put into them.

Nickademus42
03-07-2013, 06:41 PM
Now let's get a full list of what hirelings to avoid. Some have been mentioned above, but it would be nice to have the names all in one place (like a hireling squelch list). :D

Brendae
03-08-2013, 04:06 AM
My strategy (I'm in the mid-teen levels with both my active toons) is to select whichever Divine is closest to my level and has Greater Restoration. Because there is nothing more annoying than Level Drain.

moops
03-08-2013, 04:49 AM
Flare, lvl 8 sorc, is prob my favorite hire in game, I use him up to lvl 12 content, even on my casters.

Sometimes thru out TRing I get lazy....Flare does a lot of work, and he will even heal a WF in party, which might just be another hireling: )

I don't use divines on my melees as they self heal..but I do use clerics for DVs all the time.

I'm gonna try that one FVS that can solo quests for you while getting some work done one day:)

Kmnh
03-08-2013, 05:46 AM
Tempys, level 14 cleric, is the ultimate emergency summon. Ressurection, heal, mass death ward, 25 divine vitalities. Grab soulstones, cast a Dimension Door, summon him and use the commands in that order. It's a great way to recover a run that was about to wipe.

FranOhmsford
03-08-2013, 06:49 AM
Now let's get a full list of what hirelings to avoid. Some have been mentioned above, but it would be nice to have the names all in one place (like a hireling squelch list). :D

My Hireling Squelch List:

4. Maloren
8. Fergus
10. Ruthok
12. Flagon
13. Dheran
15. Jatrina

A lot of the reason for me never using these hirelings is simply that there are far better options available BUT I have to say when looking at the list above - Boy am I glad of those options!

Hirelings I don't use very often:

Any Lvl 1-2 Except Dryad, Breven & Riana
Lvl 3 Cleric - Elieri Thistledown - {will be using her much more often now I've bought the starter pack and got the Permanent Gold Seal version - mainly for rune standing and lever pulling duties of course.
Lvl 5 Cleric - Molin Caskenflagon - With a choice of Kendra or Aunidil I find there's Never a reason to grab Molin.
Lvl 6 Cleric - Arias Oreth - I much prefer Mareth!
Lvl 7 Cleric - Flower - Again I have a good choice here - Zaghar Everstar is a fantastic FavSoul Healer and Laerathor maybe slow but does have lots of DV!
Lvl 10 Cleric - Fayden Maeleth {The Lvl 9s are just that good}!

Any Lvl 1-10 FavSoul other than Zaghar, Aunidil and Nimeth}.

Lvl 5 Wizard - Zeran Hamsterherder - I actually do consider using this hireling to be an Exploit as he is so obviously broken!

Lvl 7 Wizard - K'Zurth Qarab - Used to be a superb hireling till the Devs decided to nerf him round about Update 8 or 9 {Now he spams Enervate causing massive aggro without actually doing much + he has really low HP!

Lvl 20 FavSoul - Albus - He is very close to being fully squelched!
Unfortunately the Lvl 21-23 FavSouls are TRULY TERRIBLE! Meaning that when I can't use Wyoh I have to take Albus!
Luckily my Duo Partner Loves Klin! So I don't have to use Albus Much.




Devs - Is it too much to ask for a rehaul of Cleric Hirelings?

My Suggestion - Push Chalice up to Lvl 3, Push Erythyn up to Lvl 4, Push Kendra up to Lvl 6, Push Mareth up to Lvl 7, Laerathor to Lvl 8, Marissa to Lvl 10, Miranda to Lvl 13, Natasha to Lvl 17, Ayron to 18, Heystack to 19, Klin to 20 and Wyoh to 21!

TeacherSyn
03-08-2013, 01:36 PM
The thread's pleasantly evolving to choices based on both the hireling's abilities and it's nasty eccentricities.

That said, here's a few thoughts on some clerics I've used.

* Fergus (8): Has Restoration. Great for quick negative level removal. Summon and park him and call on him as you need to, even through high non-Epic levels.
* Klin (19): His big herzou is a nice teleporting aggro stealer to allow you to kill with fewer mobs attentive to you. Reliable healer Like many other cleric hirelings, he'll start fighting if he gets too close to action, and that is rarely good.
* Isadora (16): Decent healer, but her Blade Barrier is helpful most of all.
* Haystack and Albus (17?). Death Ward Mass, but are slower healers and are generally bad in melee themselves.
* Wyoh (20): WHOA. I believe her to be nicknamed by the acronym, "Why you have no healer?" I've universally avoided this one as she is terribly programmed.
* Luna: (21) Epic FvS. OK in fighting, durable, fast healer with Greater Restoration.

I would love to see the hirelings gain more personality than from when we summon them or open chests. Sometimes I'd like them to have a very small chance to "freak out," scream and run briefly at the sight of some enemies, just to keep us on our toes. Or, should we do something that causes us or party members serious harm, they elicit a reaction ("Wow...not even I would've done something crazy like that") or on too many deaths ("Should I just carry your soulstone? It'll save me the time of resurrecting you again and again...and again?").

ThePrincipal
03-08-2013, 03:59 PM
I like some of the sorc hires. They chain-nukes and disco balls like crazy.

Kinerd
03-08-2013, 05:18 PM
I do not understand how Althea (16 FvS) and Albus (20 FvS) get so little love. They are the only ones I ever use, and they do their job. Every hireling that uses Mass Heal (including Albus) necessarily has a critical weakness because they do not understand the concept of Quicken, but he is still far, far superior to Wyoh's 200 some odd HP.
Ok, learning here so keep it civil :)

Why are you grabbing a DW hireling (read below for my misunderstanding)?

I am trying to think of those level ranges and why you need DW when DB works just as good. I know DW blocks negative levels but the only NPC's that both kill you and cast negative levels are Beholders and DW is not effective vs. them. The only chain that I can think of that spams Negative levels (which makes DW better) is the Coin Lord Plaza chain. My other thought would be Sands pack, but I see less and less people doing them, saving them for ED farming. Alas, making DW at this level range less valuable (I.E. It's there if you happen to run Sands/Plaza, but the spell is useless more often than not). Necro II/III is in this level range but casters tend to spam DPS spells, not negative level spells. And BB/AoE is so juice against tons of NPC's trying to surround you.Not only level drain but negative damage (e.g. Harm and Necrotic Ray) and stat drain (e.g. Necro Shadows that no-save kill you if they drain your Strength far enough). Death Ward is a critical part of soloing. Relying on Tangleroot's Visors is, to put it bluntly, a relic of the level cap 10 days. 7 minutes doesn't cut it, and caster level 7 doesn't cut it vs. Dispel.

.

To be honest I do not understand the concept of bringing a divine hireling for offense (Blade Barrier, Destruction, et al). What characters are you (general) running that struggle with both offense and self-healing?

Nickademus42
03-08-2013, 06:23 PM
While I'm not a fan of healer hirelings that do dps, I believe a lot of the hirelings mentioned as beneficial spam CC (command, cometfall, holy smite, etc.). This is helpful on a melee as it contributes to damage mitigation. And it's nice to have a hireling doing something other than standing in back, dying, or playing patty cake in a trap.

At later levels, the dps and instakills help with removing the trash so the player can focus on the actual dangerous mobs.

oradafu
03-08-2013, 07:16 PM
Nice thread.

I'd like to add one thing though. I prefer the cleric Klin over his level 19 FvS counterpart Myar. There's a few reasons why.

First, prior to the heavy nerf to summons that came with MOTU, the Herzou summon was a beast in most content. The Efreeti that Myar summoned did damage, but least face it, most content at the time was fire resistant.

Second, Klin could rez, while Myar can't. There are certain things I prefer hirelings have. I rather have a Rez on a healer hireling than no rez. I rather have a single Heal over a Mass Cure. I rather have a Deathward than an offensive spell. Others might have other preferences, but that's just me.

Thayion516
03-08-2013, 08:24 PM
To be honest I do not understand the concept of bringing a divine hireling for offense (Blade Barrier, Destruction, et al). What characters are you (general) running that struggle with both offense and self-healing?


While I'm not a fan of healer hirelings that do dps, I believe a lot of the hirelings mentioned as beneficial spam CC (command, cometfall, holy smite, etc.). This is helpful on a melee as it contributes to damage mitigation. And it's nice to have a hireling doing something other than standing in back, dying, or playing patty cake in a trap.

At later levels, the dps and instakills help with removing the trash so the player can focus on the actual dangerous mobs.

Pretty much This. ^^

Iv never had a damage output problem as far as I know. Iv been soloing elites for quite a while now. I prefer my Hire to assist me with the kill. When we run GH and Larafay walks out with 20-40 kills. Thats 20-40 mobs faster then what I would have done without the help. When Greater command hits 3 mobs and i get the +50% damage boost and start critting stuff for 300+ in Vale... thank you Hireling. Faster Kills = More XP = Less Healing Required. If a Hireling is standing there doing nothing as I take on 3-5 bad guys, waiting for me to get to 75% health, it's lazy IMO.

Gremmlynn
03-08-2013, 08:40 PM
I've found Defensive mode to be mainly useless - I only ever switch to defensive to lose the regular glitch where hireling becomes inattentive {switching immediately back to aggressive}I see it as just the opposite. All offensive mode does is cause them to pull agro and get out of posision to be doing what I hire them for, which is to heal. While a slower heal is generally more SP efficient than a fast heal from a hire (they really jump the gun IMO) dieing while they run off to miss things with their mace is worse yet.




Lvl 20 Hirelings = Wyoh vs Albus
I can have this argument all day long but I will defend Wyoh to the death!
She has her foibles and like all hirelings can glitch out at the worst possible times - She's also quite squishy {Augment Summoning makes this a non-issue}.
BUT she's a heck of a lot faster to heal players than Albus!
No she doesn't have Deathward BUT DW is no use if you don't get timely heals anyway!

Plus: Her Implosion actually works well!I find the slower heals to be a boon actually. Most hires really over heal. I don't need a 300 point heal spammed on me every time I lose 100 hp's, I need it every time I'm 300 or more hp's down as that makes their SP bar last much longer.

FranOhmsford
03-09-2013, 05:21 AM
I see it as just the opposite. All offensive mode does is cause them to pull agro and get out of posision to be doing what I hire them for, which is to heal. While a slower heal is generally more SP efficient than a fast heal from a hire (they really jump the gun IMO) dieing while they run off to miss things with their mace is worse yet.



I find the slower heals to be a boon actually. Most hires really over heal. I don't need a 300 point heal spammed on me every time I lose 100 hp's, I need it every time I'm 300 or more hp's down as that makes their SP bar last much longer.

When I'm 300hp down then I need a Quick heal!

I do NOT need Albus to start casting Heal Mass because by the time he's done I'm dead!
And that's without the issue the devs gave us when they played around with the hirelings Heal AI! - Basically that these days if you hit the Heal Me Now button on their bar when they're already in the process of casting any spell you not only don't get healed BUT they also lose the spell they were currently casting {which of course could have beent he very heal you were after BUT you'll never know this either}.

I've also found that Hires don't really over-heal at all {unless you're running with Multiple Hires when just like Real Player Divines they tend to both hit you at the same time!}.
In fact I've found that quite a lot of the hires have an incredibly bad HP threshold to start healing you at!
Many times I've been on 50% or even 40% of my total HP and still had to take more dmg before the hireling decided "Hey maybe I should heal my boss now"
Many times I've been on 10% or less HP and The hireling has looked at me and gone "Nah you don't need healing yet".

I also have a pet peeve against Hirelings hitting Unconscious Players with a Cure Light/Poss Un-Metaed Moderate Before hitting Heal!
Most of the time this simply means player wakes up and instantly gets hit for 30-50 dmg by the closest mob = Dead Player and Hireling who's in the middle of Mass Heal has to be told to res instead!

Mass Heal {with Hirelings not getting quicken} is a severely bad spell to be Self-cast! - Those Hirelings SHOULD be told to cast Single Target Heal as their go-to spell and have Mass Heal/Mass Cure Crit on their Bars for the player to decide when to use!


Another thing I don't get {apart from the obvious one of Why the Devs decided EVERY Single Cleric Hireling should have the Exact same Mace with Random Elemental/Force dmg on it - Lvl Relevant} is....
Why the Devs decided what the Cleric Hirelings needed was Better Melee abilities?
Yes it is nice that they can do some dmg with their melee weapons now BUT the Devs SHOULD have gone through the Hirelings ONE BY ONE!
And made them Truly Unique rather than Homogenizing them!

Fayden Maeleth is a Cleric of the Undying Court {this is heavily mentioned on her description!} - She should be using a Scimitar!
She Should have been downgraded to Lvl 8! Where the Undying Court Clickie {Raise Dead} would have Been a Huge Bonus!

On the other hand - Fergus was {just like Fayden actually} before the Update using a Club!
Giving him the Mace was a GOOD thing!
He's still a terribad healer hire of course - Even having Restoration doesn't change this {though if you only want the Restoration he's pretty much the only choice at that low a lvl!}.

The Devs could have pushed Fergus up to Lvl 10 and given him Radiant Servant 1 Prestige {self-cast} to replace Fayden!

Gremmlynn
03-09-2013, 03:53 PM
When I'm 300hp down then I need a Quick heal!

I do NOT need Albus to start casting Heal Mass because by the time he's done I'm dead!
And that's without the issue the devs gave us when they played around with the hirelings Heal AI! - Basically that these days if you hit the Heal Me Now button on their bar when they're already in the process of casting any spell you not only don't get healed BUT they also lose the spell they were currently casting {which of course could have beent he very heal you were after BUT you'll never know this either}.

I've also found that Hires don't really over-heal at all {unless you're running with Multiple Hires when just like Real Player Divines they tend to both hit you at the same time!}.
In fact I've found that quite a lot of the hires have an incredibly bad HP threshold to start healing you at!
Many times I've been on 50% or even 40% of my total HP and still had to take more dmg before the hireling decided "Hey maybe I should heal my boss now"
Many times I've been on 10% or less HP and The hireling has looked at me and gone "Nah you don't need healing yet".

I also have a pet peeve against Hirelings hitting Unconscious Players with a Cure Light/Poss Un-Metaed Moderate Before hitting Heal!
Most of the time this simply means player wakes up and instantly gets hit for 30-50 dmg by the closest mob = Dead Player and Hireling who's in the middle of Mass Heal has to be told to res instead!

Mass Heal {with Hirelings not getting quicken} is a severely bad spell to be Self-cast! - Those Hirelings SHOULD be told to cast Single Target Heal as their go-to spell and have Mass Heal/Mass Cure Crit on their Bars for the player to decide when to use!


Another thing I don't get {apart from the obvious one of Why the Devs decided EVERY Single Cleric Hireling should have the Exact same Mace with Random Elemental/Force dmg on it - Lvl Relevant} is....
Why the Devs decided what the Cleric Hirelings needed was Better Melee abilities?
Yes it is nice that they can do some dmg with their melee weapons now BUT the Devs SHOULD have gone through the Hirelings ONE BY ONE!
And made them Truly Unique rather than Homogenizing them!

Fayden Maeleth is a Cleric of the Undying Court {this is heavily mentioned on her description!} - She should be using a Scimitar!
She Should have been downgraded to Lvl 8! Where the Undying Court Clickie {Raise Dead} would have Been a Huge Bonus!

On the other hand - Fergus was {just like Fayden actually} before the Update using a Club!
Giving him the Mace was a GOOD thing!
He's still a terribad healer hire of course - Even having Restoration doesn't change this {though if you only want the Restoration he's pretty much the only choice at that low a lvl!}.

The Devs could have pushed Fergus up to Lvl 10 and given him Radiant Servant 1 Prestige {self-cast} to replace Fayden!Heh, at level 20 when I'm down 300 hp's I'm starting to think about needing a heal. That said, Al generally defaults to heal rather than mass when defensive and is more on the ball with the heals in that mode, he simply isn't distracted with finding things to fight. He also tends to stay in awareness range better so I don't have to move closer as often to be noticed.

Self cast mass heal is a bad idea I agree. But that's more a factor of how the code works it seems to me. The code for all hires seems to tie the "on command" heals in as primary or secondary heals for all hires. Self cast mass's seems to come up when their primary heal is on cool down. This is bad when their mass is mass heal as it takes to long to cast so waiting out the cool down would be better. Expecting custom AI, beyond tweaked settings, for every hire is just unreasonable.

The rest is just nit-picking and unreasonable expectations for a $10-15/month game with a F2P option. They all have the same weapon to keep coding costs down. The same for not having PrE or faith based options available. Hirelings are supposed to fill in when actual player can't be found, or in the case of healbots do a job very few players really want to. They are not supposed to be even close to the equal of a real player.

FranOhmsford
03-10-2013, 12:27 AM
Heh, at level 20 when I'm down 300 hp's I'm starting to think about needing a heal. That said, Al generally defaults to heal rather than mass when defensive and is more on the ball with the heals in that mode, he simply isn't distracted with finding things to fight. He also tends to stay in awareness range better so I don't have to move closer as often to be noticed.

Self cast mass heal is a bad idea I agree. But that's more a factor of how the code works it seems to me. The code for all hires seems to tie the "on command" heals in as primary or secondary heals for all hires. Self cast mass's seems to come up when their primary heal is on cool down. This is bad when their mass is mass heal as it takes to long to cast so waiting out the cool down would be better. Expecting custom AI, beyond tweaked settings, for every hire is just unreasonable.

The rest is just nit-picking and unreasonable expectations for a $10-15/month game with a F2P option. They all have the same weapon to keep coding costs down. The same for not having PrE or faith based options available. Hirelings are supposed to fill in when actual player can't be found, or in the case of healbots do a job very few players really want to. They are not supposed to be even close to the equal of a real player.

At Lvl 20 {Pre MotU} None of my characters who hit cap had 500 HP {In fact - http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/keltenn/ had 472 when I TRd him!}
Post MotU and with work getting gear I've managed to push my Battle Cleric {Human}, My Rogue {Drow} and My Shinto {Elf} up into the Mid 400s at Lvl 20-22
My Barb/Ftr/Ranger - Urik - Has 603 None Raged! {He's probably the only one of my characters who wouldn't need an IMMEDIATE Heal at 300 points down!}.


And sorry but no - I don't believe my expectations for Hirelings to be unrealistic in the slightest!

Those Hirelings all had very different weapons before the change!
The Devs decided to go for the cheap option and put in a package that basically homogenized the Cleric Hirelings!

Really - How hard would it be for one dev to log onto a Hireling and take it to Kruz for a Respec {He/She could do one hireling per week even!}.
Then respec Hire {Levelling up or down to fit in better with that hireling's abilities} and Gear up Hire with useful gear for it's level.

And let's take Fayden as an Example:

Lvl 10 Cleric Hireling - Elf Follower of the Undying Court!

Respec her to Lvl 8!
Put Undying Call on her bar!
Other 3 Bar Abilities can be: Cure Critical, FoM, Aid Mass.
Self Cast - Cure Moderate, Searing Light
Feats: Emp. Healing {always on}, Toughness, Mental Toughness.
Gear her up with:
Helm - Sacred Helm {Red Fens}
Necklace - Marguerite's Necklace {Catacombs - False Life}
Trinket - Lesser Cunning Trinket {Crystal Cove}
Cloak - Charisma 4
Belt - Con 4
Rings - Sacred Ring, Ring of the Mire {Red Fens}
Gloves - Dex 4
Boots - Boots of the Mire {Red Fens}
Bracers - Str 4
Armour - Moderate Fort
Shield - Devotion {Lvl appropriate}
Weapon - +2 Holy Scimitar of Pure Good

And she still wouldn't be anywhere near as good as a Real Player! {UI being what it is!}.

Give all Hirelings permanent Ship Buffs as from a Lvl 70 Ship and they STILL WON'T be the equivalent of a Real Player!

Now for Fergus:

Lvl 8 Halfling Cleric Hireling {Currently Useless}!

Respec him to Lvl 10 {Swap with Fayden}
Bar abilities: Raise Dead, Cure Critical, Deathward, Restoration
Self Cast: Radiant Burst, Searing Light
Feats: Emp. Heal {always on}, Toughness, Mental Toughness, Quicken {always on}.
Gear Him up with:
Helm - Nightforge Darkhelm {Wis 4, Will Save 5 - This item now has a Yellow Slot I believe - Put Fear Immunity in it. - If slot is Blue Put False Life in}.
Necklace - Nightforge Gorget - Slot with Resist Acid.
Trinket - Pearl of Power X
Cloak - Phiarlan Mirror Cloak
Belt - Con 5
Rings - Charisma 5, Devotion Ring {Lvl Appropriate}
Gloves - Charged Gauntlets
Boots - Firestorm Greaves
Bracers - Greater Parrying.
Armour - Gleaming Adamantine Plate
Shield - Phiarlan Shield {Angular with Appearance Kit added}.
Weapons - Noxious Fang, Shrieking Star {make sure he knows to swap when needed - Mobs can do it}.

And he still won't be anywhere near as good as a Real Player!

Heck - Give him a +2 Supreme Tome too - He still won't equal a Real Player's contribution!

Thayion516
03-10-2013, 08:05 AM
All of this Theory Crafting is well and good, but it is not really applicable or helpful to new players in game. A new player needs a guide on what IS , not what could be.

One of the best things for new players I would suggest is use the Call button and swap between Aggro/Defensive often to reset actions and keep your hire safe. Treat it like a Pet with a simple AI.

Want to know what a hire will do in battle? Take it to a Explorer Zone a little under your level and pull 3 or 4 bad guys ... Put it on different modes and just watch it. If it stand there and gets beat down, Its Lazy, don't use it. If it starts doing actions and attempts to take care of things, its ok and its AI is working.

And BTW Fran.. Turbine can not even make a maintanance patch without breaking the game for 4 days or a update that is not 10% bugged. I dont really want them messing with anything they dont really have too. They are too busy trying to fix the last years worth of mistakes lol!

sandypaws
03-10-2013, 09:39 AM
I too prefer Albus over Wyoh, though I do note you need to have at least in the high-400s for him to work. If you have <400, he generally won't heal you period. I expect he's taking into account how much his heal hits for versus how much hp you are missing.

His tankiness really helps in harder-hitting quests (elite/epic elites), whereas Wyoh tends to go splat the moment something looks at her funnily. Furthermore, he seems to have a decent concentration score now.

That being said, he's a little bit too aggressive considering his minimal damage output for my tastes, and has an annoying tendancy to rush in and hit cometfalling caster-things with his mace. Which generally means he's flat on his back the next moment. In general, though, I also find him to be a bit less glitchy than Wyoh, and he comes with mass DW (does Wyoh? I can't remember. At any rate, I find my tangleroots are dispelled faster than a sneeze nowadays in a bunch of content).

FranOhmsford
03-10-2013, 09:58 AM
I too prefer Albus over Wyoh, though I do note you need to have at least in the high-400s for him to work. If you have <400, he generally won't heal you period. I expect he's taking into account how much his heal hits for versus how much hp you are missing.

His tankiness really helps in harder-hitting quests (elite/epic elites), whereas Wyoh tends to go splat the moment something looks at her funnily. Furthermore, he seems to have a decent concentration score now.

That being said, he's a little bit too aggressive considering his minimal damage output for my tastes, and has an annoying tendancy to rush in and hit cometfalling caster-things with his mace. Which generally means he's flat on his back the next moment. In general, though, I also find him to be a bit less glitchy than Wyoh, and he comes with mass DW (does Wyoh? I can't remember. At any rate, I find my tangleroots are dispelled faster than a sneeze nowadays in a bunch of content).

Yes he comes with Mass Deathward - So does Heystack!

Wyoh comes with a highly usable Implosion!

And as you mention in your first paragraph - If the player has less than 400 hp then the player is toast!

So for newbies I will DEFINITELY continue Championing Wyoh!
Keep her alive and she'll keep you alive!
Make sure you keep her close and when you go into a group of mobs - tell her to cast Implosion - Half the Mobs will vanish!
You can keep the rest off her!

Whereas - Albus does act like he thinks he's a tank! - He's way too slow to heal even when on defensive {I've seen hirelings melee mobs on defensive btw}.
In fact I'll accept that for Caster Hirelings who like to blow their mana {Yes I'm looking at you Larafay!} Defensive is a good option.
BUT for Melee Hires {and most - if not all of the - Clerics fall into this category} I find Defensive to be utterly useless.

Anyway - Epic Elites? Seriously?
Now I know the Epic Hires are bad BUT You're taking a Lvl 20 Hire into Epic Elites when there's higher lvl options available?


Now to the theory Crafting spoken of by Thayion:

I'm still annoyed at the Devs taking the cheapo option when fixing Hirelings {And not going anywhere near far enough}.

Swapping between Aggro and Defensive is actually almost mandatory - Because this is the easiest way to get a glitchy hire moving and healing again!
Also known to work on Arti Dogs/Druid Wolves!

One run with any hire could result in completely flawed results - You'll need to run with hires in multiple different instances to really get to know which are actually good or not {Plus some are much better in certain instances than others}!
Today I've used Albus and Miranda in Crystal Cove {different characters of course} and Albus has done fine in there - Miranda on the other hand had a Mare! {and she's usually pretty good in my experience}.
Also - It can highly depend on your build which hireling is best for you! {My Battle Cleric absolutely adores Wyoh!}.

Lastly - I consider Hirelings to be a high priority fix for DDO - Remember that the people getting most use out of hirelings are the newbies you're attempting to help!

Kinerd
03-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Pretty much This. ^^

Iv never had a damage output problem as far as I know. Iv been soloing elites for quite a while now. I prefer my Hire to assist me with the kill. When we run GH and Larafay walks out with 20-40 kills. Thats 20-40 mobs faster then what I would have done without the help.But dungeon scaling makes the rest of the kills that much harder for you to achieve. It's not a no-loss situation.
When Greater command hits 3 mobs and i get the +50% damage boost and start critting stuff for 300+ in Vale... thank you Hireling.I am reasonably sure Greater Command does not grant the Helpless buff, because the only Prone that offers it specifically states it does.
If a Hireling is standing there doing nothing as I take on 3-5 bad guys, waiting for me to get to 75% health, it's lazy IMO.That's all well and good, but if you need the healing you need your hire to have SP, and going offensive will drain that SP very quickly.
And as you mention in your first paragraph - If the player has less than 400 hp then the player is toast!

So for newbies I will DEFINITELY continue Championing Wyoh!I think you have to go out of your way to make a level 20+ character that requires healing with less than 400 HP, new player or no.

Gremmlynn
03-12-2013, 06:22 PM
So for newbies I will DEFINITELY continue Championing Wyoh!
Keep her alive and she'll keep you alive!Right up till she runs out of SP's in the boss fight. If it wasn't for that I'd be all for hire's healing after every hit.



Whereas - Albus does act like he thinks he's a tank! - He's way too slow to heal even when on defensive {I've seen hirelings melee mobs on defensive btw}.
In fact I'll accept that for Caster Hirelings who like to blow their mana {Yes I'm looking at you Larafay!} Defensive is a good option.
BUT for Melee Hires {and most - if not all of the - Clerics fall into this category} I find Defensive to be utterly useless.Yes melee hires will melee mobs in defensive, but they wont go chasing off after mobs in defensive. Generally Al will melee anything that moves within mace range of him. While this may keep him from staying within awareness range of you, it's better than him running off outside that range on his own.


Anyway - Epic Elites? Seriously?
Now I know the Epic Hires are bad BUT You're taking a Lvl 20 Hire into Epic Elites when there's higher lvl options available?Why when they are worse than the level 20 options, not that I think hireling healers have any place in EE's regardless. Looking at the level 21-23 FVS hires, all have worse spell options as well as fewer SP's and HP's than Albus.



Now to the theory Crafting spoken of by Thayion:

I'm still annoyed at the Devs taking the cheapo option when fixing Hirelings {And not going anywhere near far enough}.It might have something to do with writing code for a $15/month or less video game. I'm sure everybody at Turbine would be delighted to be so flush with money as to spend it on frivolous stuff like hand crafting each hireling. But we are talking about a game that went F2P just to keep the servers up. This is a business, like any business, where functional at a profit always beats perfect at a loss.

sandypaws
03-12-2013, 06:30 PM
Yes he comes with Mass Deathward - So does Heystack!

Wyoh comes with a highly usable Implosion!


Anyway - Epic Elites? Seriously?
Now I know the Epic Hires are bad BUT You're taking a Lvl 20 Hire into Epic Elites when there's higher lvl options available?



Heystack goes squish, and Wyoh doesn't have mass deathward. When I look for a hire, some amount of survivability, deathward, and reasonable healing are pretty much my first priorities, though granted we may differ in what those priorities are.

And yes, epic elites. When I take hires into eEs, it's always Albus. Offensively oriented hires can't do diddly, Albus can at least prop me up when I mis-step and take unexpected damage. Plus, he's cheaper than healing scrolls. On second thought, I think I've been through more epic elites with Albus than with any other player/hire in the game.

-Maybe- for a new person Wyoh is indeed better, with her more watchful healing. I just personally have a hard time keeping an eye on her, and she always ends up dead. Personal playstyle differences, perhaps.

Falco_Easts
03-12-2013, 06:46 PM
What I would like to see on a hireling is more customisation. Right click to bring up character sheet similar to arti's pet. Drag spells/feats/skills from character sheet to hotbar. Possibly even choose 2 favoured spells or feats the hireling will use when required and off timer so you can sert your barbarian to stun & trip without having to click or set your sorc to firewall & scorching ray.

Thayion516
03-15-2013, 04:27 AM
I am reasonably sure Greater Command does not grant the Helpless buff, because the only Prone that offers it specifically states it does.

Did some testing and you are correct. Greater command and Cometfall does not give the +50% damage bonus for helpless. It just counts them prone with a -4AC. It seems I am seeing the +[Weapon] damage from Cleave/Great Cleave on them all as they are laying there. But i still like the fact they are on their back causing no trouble and bunched up nicely for a beating. So I still say Thank You hireling for assisting.