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Matsu_Ieyasu
03-02-2013, 09:15 AM
I am looking to do my third life on my Dwarf Tank, he has had one live of each Fighter and Paladin and I am trying to decide which flavor I should use as my third life.

I was thinking Paladin (18P/2F) because of better self healing capability with an AC 140, Dodge 8/12%, PRR 135. But I am unsure how that really stacks up in Epic Elite content. (I made several mistakes on Fighter or second life and not sure I want to expend my free LR to fix to see if viable)

I have seen screen shots of tanks with high 150 low 160 AC and have no clue how the players got their characters that high of AC.

As indicated I made a couple of crucial build design choices for my fighter life, but while I think I can get to AC 135, Dodge 10/14%, and PRR 130 I think the Paladin has more to offer.

Dieterstrife
03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
Paladins survive better than any other class. I've met plenty a barbarian that has decided to go for more heal amp and went the paladin route for the past lives, then just ended up not tring back.

If you weren't bent on going for a tank build, I'd almost recommend going Hunter and walking around in Fury. Biggest pain I have ever found is that you can't activate adrenaline when you're in Defensive stance, which kinda limits you. Me personally I want to always be in stance, but the benefits of being a Hunter are starting to outweigh the need for that.

Hell, go Half Elf, take Monk Dile, go Hunter of the Dead with 2 fighter (or monk or even rogue) and just use Adrenaline Smites with a 2hander on whatever you come across. You're going to have so much heal amp you could potentially run the highest dps setup 100% of the time and never have to worry. (totally building this now)

But, you wanted a tank build which lends itself to survival much much more than even a Favoured Soul could ever accomplish, simply by the virtue of tanking defenses.

Now, you can go Fighter and pull off enough umd to be able to scroll heal, cast buffs etc but then you'd still have to either swap gear out to accomplish this or just wear that gear constantly which may not be advisable.

As for the AC, do you have Combat Expertise? If so, what kind of armour are you using? With dodge at that height I would assume either Medium or Light, and all the other tanks are rocking Heavy armor and Tower Shields. As most will tell you though don't focus on ac so much. Your dodge is 4-8% higher than most other tanks I've met, and your prr is at acceptable levels. If you were to tank EELoB (which is never ran) you would want to boost it to 150+prr which can be done with twists, proper augment slots and changes to gear.

And don't listen to people who say Paladins are gimp. They just need some extra love and patience and for the devs to make the Divine Might casting time .1 seconds long.

Matsu_Ieyasu
03-02-2013, 10:21 AM
As a Dwarf you can get Armor Mastery +3, Daggertooth's EE Belt with Fighter Armor Mastery +4 for a MDB increase of +7, Dodge/Mobility also can increase MDB +2

My Pally Plan has Dwarven Armor Mastery +2, Daggertooth's EE Belt Armor Mastery +4, and Dodge/Mobility as Feat Choices for Fighter Feats for +8 (or +9 in I take DAM +3)

That in theory should get me to 50% miss chance due to AC on Epic Elite with 10% of successful hits mitigated.

In addition with a PRR around 130 (might be squeezing that to 140) that should reduce physical damage by 50%.

Uska
03-02-2013, 10:52 AM
Not sure exactly how but my 1st life drow paladin has AC 156 prr 143 and dodge 5% without much gear and is lvl24 he will be able to get a bit better at 25 it will be over 160 on AC dodge won't likely change but his prr should hit 163 or so maybe better if I can get the gear

Matsu_Ieyasu
03-02-2013, 11:52 AM
Not sure exactly how but my 1st life drow paladin has AC 156 prr 143 and dodge 5% without much gear and is lvl24 he will be able to get a bit better at 25 it will be over 160 on AC dodge won't likely change but his prr should hit 163 or so maybe better if I can get the gear

Could you breakdown you gear and associated feats/ed.
I have seen several posts and some screenshots but not the exact breakdown.

Pretty please!

elraido
03-04-2013, 09:40 AM
Honestly, there I don't see much of a point in going much above 135-150 AC. The diminishing return isn't worth the extra 1-2% increase in not getting hit. Same thing with PRR. 120-140 seems like it is easily obtainable enough with out sacrificing on other things....anything above that is such a small increase that it doesn't seem worth it to me.

Masadique
03-05-2013, 09:30 AM
A lot of people have said it, don't focus AC/PRR to the point where you forget everything else. Healing amp is important so you can be scroll healed, damage is very important - I know 0 S&B tanks who can hold aggro against hard hitters, HP is obviously crucial, and all of these things need to come together in harmony. Ignoring any of them will make your tank worthless.

On a paladin, which I think are more fun than fighters, make sure you have enough Charisma for saves, intimidate, and super damage buff thing. With the 100% aggro generator from level 6 Pal, the 1000% clicky from Unyielding, and just normal aggro gear, you should be able to keep most things on you. That said, get a big stick. Don't always be in S&B mode. On eN and eH you don't really need to tank up all the way. Killing the monster faster will allow you to take less damage anyway.

In regards to EDs, you'll want to get those maxed out ASAP because you need things like Sense Weakness, Damage Boost, and all that jazz to really put some oomf behind your blows. I can not stress enough that, without adequate damage, you will not be a tank. You will just be a really beefy guy who loses aggro. Yes, I know, people should be waiting for you to get said hate generated. Well, that doesn't work on bosses like LoB unless you want the raid to take 3 hours.

For those wondering, no, I do not play a S&B tank anymore. I TRed him because he simply didn't do anything that my monk couldn't do much, much better. Keep in mind that my monk gets up to 90 PRR, has around 300-350% healing amp, 1200-1400 HP, and AC between 70-100. Other than amp, none of these numbers are on par with an SD, but I almost never lose aggro, I'm looking at you Klinky, while casually tanking - not using all of my hate generation - and I can hold it very solidly when I activate everything and have 5 seconds to get aggro.

V

enochianscholar
03-05-2013, 09:45 AM
On my fighter since i messed up my int i don't have CE(combat expertise)feat but his ac right now is about 155 ac with buffs but not all the buffs.once i hit 167 fully buffed without CE and my prr is around 163 i twisted in the feat with PRR in legendary dreadnought forgot whats it called but you can use it only once you have the CE feat. I agree ftr's have horrible saves but they make better meat shields and i would go half-elf with monk dilly for heal amp.also pure ftrs can keep better agrro than pally tanks since they have the capstone which helps in double-strike and with further twists some ftr tanks are able to get their double strike to around 31% also ftrs have many feat option you can pick up the intim skill feats.But i think you should go pally for the PL and and at the end make tr into ftr imo..If your going dwarf for more hp then just to tell you that you can get pretty high with a helf i get around 1488 not fully buffed but decently :p but with good gear and smart twisting you can get good saves on a ftr.also half-elfs get 2 skill timers so if you fail once on your intim you can use the helf intim..Hope this helped good luck..im about to lr to get combact expertise again.

Bacab
03-05-2013, 09:57 AM
I recently LRed my Cleric into 18Cleric/2PLD. Close to 1000HP....Saves in the 70s (except Reflex...it is in the low 50s).

I love it. I can jump into the fray and swing my de-buff weapon(s) and also keep my aura on the real melees.

Why did I bring this up?

I have AC100 PRR around 100 also. It is absolutely noticeable.

Also, from a "Healer's" perspective...

Make sure you have Healing amp.
Unless you are dead set on Dwarf...I would consider Human just for the Healing amp.
If you decide on PLD...That bonus Human feat is also really nice.

On the other hand...Dwarven Axes are nice...except there just are not a lot of great ones at end game. (Love Axe of Adaxus...its a battleaxe)

Quick story...

Doing Fall of Truth...when things go pear shaped and it seems rough...If I hit a melee with a Heal Scroll and it does not hit them "hard"...I am less likely to hit them with it again. I will focus on the guy that worked on his Healing Amp.

One other suggestion...

I would suggest Paladin. Lets say you change your mind...well another Paladin Past life is always GREAT!

Oh yeah that Epic Ability, "Endless Lay on Hands" is super powerful.

Another idea...

Go Dwarf Paladin...
And when the enhancement pass happens in 2016 you can be a Defender of Syberis AND a Stallwart Defender.

elraido
03-05-2013, 10:50 AM
On my fighter since i messed up my int i don't have CE(combat expertise)feat but his ac right now is about 155 ac with buffs but not all the buffs.once i hit 167 fully buffed without CE and my prr is around 163 i twisted in the feat with PRR in legendary dreadnought forgot whats it called but you can use it only once you have the CE feat. I agree ftr's have horrible saves but they make better meat shields and i would go half-elf with monk dilly for heal amp.also pure ftrs can keep better agrro than pally tanks since they have the capstone which helps in double-strike and with further twists some ftr tanks are able to get their double strike to around 31% also ftrs have many feat option you can pick up the intim skill feats.But i think you should go pally for the PL and and at the end make tr into ftr imo..If your going dwarf for more hp then just to tell you that you can get pretty high with a helf i get around 1488 not fully buffed but decently :p but with good gear and smart twisting you can get good saves on a ftr.also half-elfs get 2 skill timers so if you fail once on your intim you can use the helf intim..Hope this helped good luck..im about to lr to get combact expertise again.

Paladins can also get near a 30% double strike.
Zeal 10%
Shield Master, Improved Shield Mastery 3% and 8%
Swashbuckler 6%

emptysands
03-05-2013, 04:01 PM
And when the enhancement pass happens in 2016 you can be a Defender of Syberis AND a Stallwart Defender.

Dwarf Paladin 14 Paladin/4 Fighter/2 Monk: Zeal = Fighter capstone. Plus you get Dwarf+Paladin saves. Enough feats to go pure Defensive, Semi-Offensive or Pure Offensive. [1]

15/3 Monk/2 Fighter is also another interesting split, I've thought about. Lose one feat from the above build, so 7 base, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 2 epic = 13. 3 monk for self-buffs: anti-stun, sp saver, etc. Oak Staff or eSOS.

Take:
(4) Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Combat Expertise, Dodge
(1) PL: Barb or Toughness
(6): PA, IC:Slash, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Cleave
(2): Empower Healing, Quicken

Take Zeal+CSW and twist Rejuvenation Cocoon, and go Hotd.

Go Human and replace Dodge with GC, OC if you want an semi-offensive version. Or HE Monk Dilly and switch SM, ISM => GC, OC for extra heal amp version.

When the enhancement update comes I'm mix Dwarven Defender with the new (they say) HOTD+KOTC mix for extra heal amp.



[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388329

Bacab
03-05-2013, 09:19 PM
Dwarf Paladin 14 Paladin/4 Fighter/2 Monk: Zeal = Fighter capstone. Plus you get Dwarf+Paladin saves. Enough feats to go pure Defensive, Semi-Offensive or Pure Offensive. [1]

15/3 Monk/2 Fighter is also another interesting split, I've thought about. Lose one feat from the above build, so 7 base, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 2 epic = 13. 3 monk for self-buffs: anti-stun, sp saver, etc. Oak Staff or eSOS.

Take:
(4) Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Combat Expertise, Dodge
(1) PL: Barb or Toughness
(6): PA, IC:Slash, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Cleave
(2): Empower Healing, Quicken

Take Zeal+CSW and twist Rejuvenation Cocoon, and go Hotd.

Go Human and replace Dodge with GC, OC if you want an semi-offensive version. Or HE Monk Dilly and switch SM, ISM => GC, OC for extra heal amp version.

When the enhancement update comes I'm mix Dwarven Defender with the new (they say) HOTD+KOTC mix for extra heal amp.



[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388329

That sounds awesome doesn't it?

I am super excited about the enhancement pass in regards to Dwarves and such.

emptysands
03-06-2013, 03:17 AM
Here is a ranged tank idea: Dwarf 12 Fighter/6 Artificer/2 Ranger.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=410907.

Thinking about trying it out.

enochianscholar
03-06-2013, 03:25 AM
Paladins can also get near a 30% double strike.
Zeal 10%
Shield Master, Improved Shield Mastery 3% and 8%
Swashbuckler 6%

If you use Swashbuckler you are gonna lose ac and PRR it's a crappy shield imo there are better shields out there and Zeal it's for such a short duration. I'm not saying pally are bad they are awesome high saves good survivabilty. But in the end game if you compare everything equally with equal PL's and Gear i think ftr make better tanks than pally imo.

elraido
03-06-2013, 10:36 AM
If you use Swashbuckler you are gonna lose ac and PRR it's a crappy shield imo there are better shields out there and Zeal it's for such a short duration. I'm not saying pally are bad they are awesome high saves good survivabilty. But in the end game if you compare everything equally with equal PL's and Gear i think ftr make better tanks than pally imo.

Zeal, it last like 2-3 minutes...it isn't exactly short and it normally kept up 24/7 on any paladin. Swashbuckler isn't horrible. It offers some crowd control and ups the damage via the double strike. Do I personally use it a lot, no. The % difference on double strike between a fighter and a paladin is basically a moot point. A fighters attack haste boost on the other hand, that is a huge advantage.

enochianscholar
03-07-2013, 03:45 AM
Zeal, it last like 2-3 minutes...it isn't exactly short and it normally kept up 24/7 on any paladin. Swashbuckler isn't horrible. It offers some crowd control and ups the damage via the double strike. Do I personally use it a lot, no. The % difference on double strike between a fighter and a paladin is basically a moot point. A fighters attack haste boost on the other hand, that is a huge advantage.

Any 1 would prefer using a EE bastion or EE shield from the black dragon chest.tanking on EE content and using a swash buckler is not a great idea.

Uska
03-07-2013, 03:48 AM
Could you breakdown you gear and associated feats/ed.
I have seen several posts and some screenshots but not the exact breakdown.

Pretty please!

I will see what I can do this weekend

Uska
03-07-2013, 03:56 AM
I recently LRed my Cleric into 18Cleric/2PLD. Close to 1000HP....Saves in the 70s (except Reflex...it is in the low 50s).

I love it. I can jump into the fray and swing my de-buff weapon(s) and also keep my aura on the real melees.

Why did I bring this up?

I have AC100 PRR around 100 also. It is absolutely noticeable.

Also, from a "Healer's" perspective...

Make sure you have Healing amp.
Unless you are dead set on Dwarf...I would consider Human just for the Healing amp.
If you decide on PLD...That bonus Human feat is also really nice.

On the other hand...Dwarven Axes are nice...except there just are not a lot of great ones at end game. (Love Axe of Adaxus...its a battleaxe)

Quick story...

Doing Fall of Truth...when things go pear shaped and it seems rough...If I hit a melee with a Heal Scroll and it does not hit them "hard"...I am less likely to hit them with it again. I will focus on the guy that worked on his Healing Amp.

One other suggestion...

I would suggest Paladin. Lets say you change your mind...well another Paladin Past life is always GREAT!

Oh yeah that Epic Ability, "Endless Lay on Hands" is super powerful.

Another idea...

Go Dwarf Paladin...
And when the enhancement pass happens in 2016 you can be a Defender of Syberis AND a Stallwart Defender.

Hopefull thinking we will see

elraido
03-07-2013, 09:49 AM
Any 1 would prefer using a EE bastion or EE shield from the black dragon chest.tanking on EE content and using a swash buckler is not a great idea.

That is why I am saying it is a situational shield. Of course and EE bastion would be better. You are helping to off set the loss of double strike by adding 20% shield bash. If you want to be optimized for the situation, sometimes you need to change up what you are using.

emptysands
03-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Any 1 would prefer using a EE bastion or EE shield from the black dragon chest.tanking on EE content and using a swash buckler is not a great idea.

Bulwark from White Dragon you mean.