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FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 08:51 AM
OK Well firstly I'm not a new player having been here since mid 2010.

I have over 40 characters {4 of whom are on their 2nd Lives - all four currently between Lvl 10 and 13}.
Almost all of my characters have hit Lvl 10
On Cannith {barring the Lvl 7 Turn specced Cleric} I created yesterday rdy for Cove and my 2nd Life WF Sorc {Lvl 10 atm} EVERY character is at least lvl 12.
Jelina {Cleric 17/Fighter 3} is now Lvl 22 {In Angel Destiny} and is my highest Lvl Character.

Having said all this I have one question....

Why do I find Lvl 13-19 so d@rn hard!

Of my Capped {20} Characters and TRs - Every One of them has suddenly become Much Much easier to play on hitting 20.
So much so that I actually did feel bad about TRing the four I have done {all were TRd instantly on hitting 20 - Well close to Instantly - I did need to grab Shards of Power from Shroud}.

My Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger 12/6/2 {UrikofGulg} is the latest to hit 20 and yet again his viability has only gone up!
Admittedly Lvl 18 wasn't bad for him either BUT Lvl 10-17 were terrible.

Currently sitting at Lvl 18 I have Larystessian {16/2 Elf PM/Trapper} & Corelliia {15/3 Elf Tempest/Fighter} on Cannith AND Franq {18 Human Archmage} & Nalpheyn {18 Stalwart} on Sarlona.

Nalpheyn has been a breeze to play compared to the other three {Who are all much older characters}. BUT unlike the other 3 he was stoned to 16 and did require some gearing up {Probably still does} - I'd say that getting him from 16-18 with little trouble was more by luck than judgement.

Specifically however I'm having a lot of trouble with casters..

Larystessian and Franq especially don't have the DCs to be of any use at the level they're now at {I realise that Epic destinys are going to change this BUT I'm expecting to be TRing both of them upon hitting 20:

Franq is my crafter on Sarlona so will be doing 3 Arti lives
Lary is going to be Elf Wiz/Rogue on his last life {Same as his first}.
The main thing is that I'm actually scared of Lvl 18-19 on these characters.

Tyrande
02-23-2013, 09:11 AM
Did you craft all the necessary green steels before TR'ing?

Following the TR checklist before TR'ing?

psykopeta
02-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Did you craft all the necessary green steels before TR'ing?

Following the TR checklist before TR'ing?

mi 1st gs came at 4th life(because im not gonna stay at lvl 20 grinding gear, if had to do so i would leave the game, boring concept = boring game, and for me grinding gear = boring)
my 2nd gs came at 8th life
my 3rd gs came at 12th life

and yes, none is cleansed

theres absolutely no reason to grind gear before tring, what that guy needs is stop creating toons and learning to use 1 of them, then start with another... and so

i have only 1 toon, getting 3 pl of each class, not because the completionist feat or the pl bonus, simply because i love playing with different players, makes the game more interesting than grinding a lot to solo later

if all his/her toons have no gear and no pl, should look for non-dc casters or more capable classes/combos/splashes

i started playing since 1st april 2012, and haven't found yet an issue like the op is saying, simply learning quests/mechanics (hide/move silently are a must when learning a quest, zerging is something you can do once you have the right spell, aka bb as example) is the way to go, grinding gear isn't gonna solve his/her trouble

smeggy1384
02-23-2013, 11:42 AM
Is it more of dislike of the quests rather than challenge? Lack of knowledge of it? First time in a quest i have not done i go for normal, though that list is short now, or just ask for a guide. Knowing where to expect what in quests makes them a lot easier and also spell selection helps a lot. Running the 2nd and 3rd part of the Spinner of Shadows chain on a fire druid would not be fun, but as a cold specialized one with cold shield it's a push over.

Some gear is nice, but you can get by without it. I'm on my 6th life on my main character, 3 done as arti, 2 druid lives done and leveling as a druid now. Zero greensteel or other raid gear beyond the Chronoscope stuff, which i rarely used anyway.

Could just be some quests, and especially on elite, mobs have absurd amounts of hitpoints compared to the same critter in a lower level quest. Then there is dungeon scaling, if you happen to be grouping those quests can become much harder if the group isn't up to the difficulty. No shame in skipping out on elite quests, i usually stop my elite streak at lvl 16 on my char. I can pull my weight in most of the quests, but it can take so long to get the groups going that it becomes faster to just do several normal runs of the quest for the exp.

Kmnh
02-23-2013, 11:51 AM
Playstyle issues.

Your DCs should not matter at those levels. DoT the boss and win.

bergeau09
02-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Your DCs should not matter at those levels. DoT the boss and win.

Well said.

FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 01:29 PM
Did you craft all the necessary green steels before TR'ing?

Following the TR checklist before TR'ing?

I mentioned the TRs more as a "Yes I have TRd" than anything else - I also said that all four were TRd virtually instantly upon hitting 20 {although I did notice a massive boost in power level on all four having taken 20}.

I did farm some Shrouds for Shards of Power BUT DID NOT make more than 1 item on any one of those four characters.


Playstyle issues.

Your DCs should not matter at those levels. DoT the boss and win.

I've ran Running with the Devils Elite on both those casters - I did not enjoy either run {Yeah I know - Not many people do enjoy running said quest}.

I also know that said quest is NOT the super hard quest it's been made out to be - Pugging is a pain yes but I AM NOT complaining about said quest.

I truly loathe Mario quests like... Coal Chamber, Dreaming Dark etc.
BUT these aren't a DC issue.


On the other hand - I've run quite a lot of Gianthold, Vale, Orchard, IQ, Reaver's and even a coupla of Amrath quests now that all of my characters are hitting these levels.
I've flagged Eveningstar on some characters - I've run Druid's Deep and Murder By Night/The Riddle Multiple times.

I know that the last two levels {Knowing that taking 19 is a mistake} are going to hurt on certain characters - Characters I'm planning on TRing!
I JUST want to get these characters to 20 so that I can TR them.

My biggest surprise though has been the enormous boost I've seen on the characters I have hit 20 on - Lvl 17-19 was a pain on all of them - Lvl 20 was like a brand new dawn!
And only three of the multiple characters I've so far hit 20 on have been Pure - My Monk {21 now}, My HotD Pally {completely gimped- was TRd instantly - Is currently sitting at Lvl 13 on his second life} and My WF Bard {Loved Lvl 20 on said Bard btw - Hated TRing him but had long decided he was going to be my Completionist - He's currently sitting at Lvl 10 on his Sorc life (getting Sorc out the way as I don't enjoy the play style}.

Of the multiclass characters I've hit 20 on:

Jelina 17/3 Battle Cleric {My first proper Lvl 20 character} - 27 Shrouds so far - Currently 22 in Angel Destiny - Has mainly been used since hitting 20 as a Shroud grinder.

Sylveria 15/3/2 Rogue Mech/Arti/Fighter {Already mentioned in OP} - The boost that taking the 1st level of Arti on this character at Lvl 18 gave was EXTREME
Made for a much much better character.
Probably the only character I've enjoyed Lvl 19 on!

UrikofGulg 12/6/2 Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger - Admittedly got Lvl 12 Barb at 20 so a massive boost there.

Curleag 11/7/2 Ranger/Cleric {Radiant}/Barb * - TRd into Druid instantly on hitting 20 as was always the plan {Hit 20 a coupla days after Druid arrived in game.
Now sitting at lvl 11 on his Druid Life.

Enochpagett {Signature character} 16/4 FavSoul/Fighter - Started as a Fighter - Took FavSoul levels from Lvl 5 on.
Was an extreme pain to level from around Lvl 10 to Lvl 19
Again I really saw a difference upon hitting 20 {though I still TRd him into a DoS Paladin - Sitting at lvl 12 atm}.


These WERE all first life characters of course - I'm talking about first life at Lvl 13-19 NOT TR lives!

* Btw That Ranger/Cleric/Barb build was amazingly good - I was surprised at how well it did - and it got far less comments than I expected {about 2 from Lvl 4 to 20 and was pugged all the way}.
Neither comment was bad - Just a "How you finding it" type.
He did NOT have a Ranger Prestige at all!
Just Radiant Servant 1.

FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 01:40 PM
mi 1st gs came at 4th life(because im not gonna stay at lvl 20 grinding gear, if had to do so i would leave the game, boring concept = boring game, and for me grinding gear = boring)
my 2nd gs came at 8th life
my 3rd gs came at 12th life

and yes, none is cleansed

theres absolutely no reason to grind gear before tring, what that guy needs is stop creating toons and learning to use 1 of them, then start with another... and so

i have only 1 toon, getting 3 pl of each class, not because the completionist feat or the pl bonus, simply because i love playing with different players, makes the game more interesting than grinding a lot to solo later

if all his/her toons have no gear and no pl, should look for non-dc casters or more capable classes/combos/splashes

i started playing since 1st april 2012, and haven't found yet an issue like the op is saying, simply learning quests/mechanics (hide/move silently are a must when learning a quest, zerging is something you can do once you have the right spell, aka bb as example) is the way to go, grinding gear isn't gonna solve his/her trouble

You started playing in April last year and have already gone through 12 {Twelve} Lives?

Sorry to say this but you're not the type of player that I'm looking to for advice - We play the game in totally different ways.

Oh and I am having trouble playing my Wizards at high levels - This DOES NOT mean I'm in any way intending to Delete said Wizards and roll up a melee!
I have plenty of Melees, Rogues, Divines etc.

I just want to get said Wizards through their first lives {18-20} so I can TR them and start getting Past Lives for their final build.
Past Lives btw that I fully intend to spend time playing {NOT Zerg from 1-20}!

Lary for instance will have a Wiz/Rogue feel on as many lives as I can manage - Hopefully he will carry on being a melee caster as well.
I have farmed Relics and Dragonshards and He Has Elfcrafted Chain AND Blue Dragon Armour rdy for later lives!

Franq as my Sarlonian crafter will be an Arti on the next 3 lives for certain BUT I am toying with a Wiz/Arti build for him.

I JUST want to get from 18-20 on first life without feeling like a complete gimp {and I'm NOT asking to pike or anything!}.

Kmnh
02-23-2013, 01:42 PM
Level 19 is worth taking if you get a PRE or a important spell from it. 17 wizard/2 rogue is a lot more powerful than 16/2. Just make sure you farm your vale quests before you take it.

FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 01:51 PM
Level 19 is worth taking if you get a PRE or a important spell from it. 17 wizard/2 rogue is a lot more powerful than 16/2. Just make sure you farm your vale quests before you take it.

Lary's already flagged for Shroud {He's done at least 1 {Poss 2}. - Yeah pretty much piking with Lvl 25s in party I know BUT getting an XP run together for Shroud is nigh on impossible these days.

Jelina for instance pretty much flew through Lvl 19 {I didn't even take Quicken till Lvl 20} just by running Shrouds {Solo healed a couple!}.
VoD made me change my mind about Quicken NOT Shroud!

At the moment I believe he's on his last rank of Lvl 18

Yes I will take 19 on lary for 9th Level Spells!

I highly doubt I'll be Farming Vale however {apart from Shroud for Shards of Power}.


I will admit that Lvl 19 may see a huge boost in Lary's Playability - I've just gotta get there and I currently find it hard to gather the will to play him {Preferring instead to level up other characters}.
He was {and still is} however My FIRST character in DDO {Jelina was my Second - Same day}.
He has Leadership of my guild - He is My MAIN {Character Signature currently doesn't work!}.
I'd love to be able to get back to enjoying playing him!

Ryiah
02-23-2013, 04:07 PM
So much so that I actually did feel bad about TRing the four I have done {all were TRd instantly on hitting 20 - Well close to Instantly - I did need to grab Shards of Power from Shroud}.

I used to do roughly the same. I would get a character to cap, run a few raids to get a piece of gear or two, and then TR. I've since changed my opinions on it as a single ED, even one that isn't good for your build (think Shadowdancer for a caster), is going to add more to your character simply from Twist of Fate points than the average past life. For a caster the past lives are nice, extra spell penetration and all that, but for melees I wouldn't bother.

I would recommend, especially with all those characters, to get one or two of them into the Epic levels and hold them there. Something to give you a change of pace when you aren't in the mood for Heroic content.

FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 05:44 PM
I used to do roughly the same. I would get a character to cap, run a few raids to get a piece of gear or two, and then TR. I've since changed my opinions on it as a single ED, even one that isn't good for your build (think Shadowdancer for a caster), is going to add more to your character simply from Twist of Fate points than the average past life. For a caster the past lives are nice, extra spell penetration and all that, but for melees I wouldn't bother.

I would recommend, especially with all those characters, to get one or two of them into the Epic levels and hold them there. Something to give you a change of pace when you aren't in the mood for Heroic content.

Not a problem.

Jelina's Lvl 22 currently and won't be TRing for some considerable time to come {In fact she has been used pretty much totally just to farm Shroud so I can get mats for other characters' Greensteel.
The only GS item I've made for her is a pair of Spell Point Goggles {Yes I know - Should have made ConcOpp}.

Lieuk and Sylveria also will not be TRd anytime in the near future and as for Sarlona - I will probably be using my currently Lvl 17 Cleric in the same way as Jelina on Cannith {to farm mats for the rest}.

Narfle_the_Garthok
02-23-2013, 08:35 PM
If you dont want to feel like a gimp play a wf fvs or sorc for a first life. Then just farm some gear for next life.
Most of the builds you listed are gimp without gear, pure and simple. They are cute but you will need other people to carry you through. I mean no offence.

Make a strong solid char that can selfheal and deal solid dmg with starter tier gear. Such as a cha dumped earth savant or melee fvs.
Been there, done that. And was met with some surprise when I later casually mentioned it was a 28 point first lifer.

FranOhmsford
02-24-2013, 10:36 AM
If you dont want to feel like a gimp play a wf fvs or sorc for a first life. Then just farm some gear for next life.
Most of the builds you listed are gimp without gear, pure and simple. They are cute but you will need other people to carry you through. I mean no offence.

Make a strong solid char that can selfheal and deal solid dmg with starter tier gear. Such as a cha dumped earth savant or melee fvs.
Been there, done that. And was met with some surprise when I later casually mentioned it was a 28 point first lifer.

Again - I am NOT deleting the characters I've spent years playing!

I already have 24 characters on Cannith + multiple characters on other servers!

23 of those 24 characters on Cannith are at least Lvl 12 - The highest is Jelina at 22!

I have a FavSoul - H-Elf Currently Lvl 13 - Sword & Board Healer - She has BB now but I've noticed that Souls don't come into any real power until quite late.
The only way I will EVER play a WF FavSoul is when my Completionist {who happens to be Forged} has to play that class.
Said WF {who started out as a Spellsinger Bard AND will be Spellsinger on his final life too} is currently on his Sorc life {getting it out the way -Lvl 10 atm} - Acid Specced currently BUT will be Ice Specced for End-Game!

Ryiah
02-24-2013, 12:43 PM
If you dont want to feel like a gimp play a wf fvs or sorc for a first life.

Funny I would argue that there is nothing more gimp than a melee FvS without decent gear. My first FvS was Human, pure FvS and built for casting, it used a Stone of Experience to skip to level 16. It didn't really obtain "decent" gear until it reached Eveningstar and gained commendation turn-ins. Yet it easily contributed to Epic Hard and even saved at least one party from a wipe on Epic Elite.

Thayion516
02-24-2013, 01:15 PM
Ok Fran. Repeat the question or concern. I did not see one question mark in your entire OP. I will give advice as I can to attempt to help you out.

I see poeple attempting to address your concern, but then you just saying NoNoNo.

Been playing for about 4 years and mainly play 1 toon. Thayion is on life #7 with a few capped destinies. I have several other toons/alts but honestly I just enjoy playing and leveling.

As I have progressed thru my past lives, I too see the difference from level 11-19 as far as entertainment goes. I have devised several ways to grind Xp and have fun doing it.

Solutions i could see Turbine making to improve gaming experience include:

1) rework Ruins of Threnal: Seperate chain series onto individual camps with all 3 camps done = chain reward. Adjust XP Up +50%. Make it Level 10-12. This is a great series full of diverse encounters. As of now, it is competing (unsuccessfully) with the VON1-6 level range.

2) I love the quest Mired in Kobalds (lv 13). Its a stand alone quest for a great end fight, loot, and XP. I Killed a dragon! a moderately Difficult fight on Elite at level. Make more like this! A Lv 15 Quest and a Lv 17 Quest. Stand Alone. with a awesome story line and a OPTIONAL moderately difficult end fight. Into the Deep is also along these lines (like that one too).

Stuff like this is what adds some excitement into leveling. I Hear that the GH Rework now has several named random encounters .. EXELLENT. Put that in each wilderness zone! Make them moderately Difficult with +1000-4000 XP with chance at named loot on kill. Fantastic idea Turbine.

Anyways .. thats just suggestions but not actually in game.

Fran. Whats your concern? I'll try and help you out by telling you my opinion.

FranOhmsford
02-24-2013, 01:36 PM
Ok Fran. Repeat the question or concern. I did not see one question mark in your entire OP. I will give advice as I can to attempt to help you out.

I see poeple attempting to address your concern, but then you just saying NoNoNo.

Been playing for about 4 years and mainly play 1 toon. Thayion is on life #7 with a few capped destinies. I have several other toons/alts but honestly I just enjoy playing and leveling.

As I have progressed thru my past lives, I too see the difference from level 11-19 as far as entertainment goes. I have devised several ways to grind Xp and have fun doing it.

Solutions i could see Turbine making to improve gaming experience include:

1) rework Ruins of Threnal: Seperate chain series onto individual camps with all 3 camps done = chain reward. Adjust XP Up +50%. Make it Level 10-12. This is a great series full of diverse encounters. As of now, it is competing (unsuccessfully) with the VON1-6 level range.

2) I love the quest Mired in Kobalds (lv 13). Its a stand alone quest for a great end fight, loot, and XP. I Killed a dragon! a moderately Difficult fight on Elite at level. Make more like this! A Lv 15 Quest and a Lv 17 Quest. Stand Alone. with a awesome story line and a OPTIONAL moderately difficult end fight. Into the Deep is also along these lines (like that one too).

Stuff like this is what adds some excitement into leveling. I Hear that the GH Rework now has several named random encounters .. EXELLENT. Put that in each wilderness zone! Make them moderately Difficult with +1000-4000 XP with chance at named loot on kill. Fantastic idea Turbine.

Anyways .. thats just suggestions but not actually in game.

Fran. Whats your concern? I'll try and help you out by telling you my opinion.

My concern is that I find Lvl 13-19 {But especially Lvl 17-19} to be a huge pain for levelling - I don't do BYOH Zerg etc.

Now I have got a few characters past this hump!
Pure: Paladin, Monk, Bard {Spellsinger}
Multi: Battle Cleric, Ranger/Cleric/Barb, Barb/Ftr/Rgr, Rogue/Arti/Ftr.

From this you may surmise that I know of what I speak when saying that those levels were a significant pain compared to any other part of the game.

My Biggest issue however is with my Casters:
Wizards and Sorcs to be exact!
More my Wizards to be honest as I really haven't liked playing Sorcs at any level so far!

I have 2 Wizards currently sitting at 18 {One is an Elf Pale Trapper, The other a Pure Human AM}
Both will be TRd the instant they hit 20 {so long as they have their Shards of Power from Shroud} - I will farm Mats on my other characters.
I currently can't bring myself to play these wizards - Too painful!
How do I get them to 20 with the least hassle {Most likely Pugging}? - Pls don't suggest slayers.


BTW I'd love to see Threnal reworked - I would prefer however for it to be moved to Lvl 17-19 tbh than 10-12 where it would just be overshadowed by Sands + Lordsmarch.

Narfle_the_Garthok
02-24-2013, 02:15 PM
Funny I would argue that there is nothing more gimp than a melee FvS without decent gear. My first FvS was Human, pure FvS and built for casting, it used a Stone of Experience to skip to level 16. It didn't really obtain "decent" gear until it reached Eveningstar and gained commendation turn-ins. Yet it easily contributed to Epic Hard and even saved at least one party from a wipe on Epic Elite.

Right, a totally different build, that uses dc casting. Which requires gear. Duh.
Melee wf fvs needs 2 or 3 things; a greatsword and a devotion item. And perhaps a cha item if you started at bare minimum charisma. Which is a good idea.

blerkington
02-24-2013, 03:01 PM
Hi,

Other people have mentioned these points already, but I'll reiterate.

* The first ten levels are much easier than the next ten. Also, much shorter in terms of xp required.

* Multiclass combinations can make this problem worse. They are fine at first, but then you are doing harder content without higher level class abilities. This is particularly an issue for casters, but can also affect melees that aren't well put together.

* From reading your posts, it sounds like you have a lot of characters, most of them at low level. The later levels will become easier as you become more familiar with that content, even if you don't change your approach to builds and gearing.

* Levels 11-20 become much easier with good gear, either bought or crafted. TR'd characters with raid loot and green steel have a massive power increase in later levels compared to those who don't have this gear.

It's up to you if you want to change how you do things. But there are things you can do to make the problems you describe go away.

Thanks.

Stanley_Nicholas
02-24-2013, 03:20 PM
Maybe arcane casters just aren't for you. That's something I can understand - even though a decently geared and well-played arcane can trivialize almost any content (especially in heroic levels), I can't stand playing them.

I tried leveling a sorc once, got to level 6 over the course of a couple months, and found it so mind-numbingly boring and unfun that I simply deleted it.

I have an older wizard that I had capped at levels 12, 14, and 16 back in the day. I guess I was adequate at playing him, guildies and friends told me I was good at it, but I always felt weird and awkward playing him, like it was completely unintuitive and it just seemed to me like I wasn't doing something right. It was a chore instead of being fun. When the cap went to 20 I tried getting him capped again but it didn't happen. He's currently level 18, less than 2000 xp away from level 19, and he's been at that point for years. I have absolutely zero interest in ever playing him again, and now he's just a mule holding dragonshards and tomes for my other characters.

I don't feel that way about all casters. Divines are great. My first character was a cleric and I liked him so much I made a second one. Nowadays I greatly prefer favored souls, but the point is I have fun playing divines whereas I'd rather just not log in than play an arcane. I love melees and archers too and have done several TRs, all of which have been melee or archer lives. Those classes, both in heroic (especially low to mid level, as 18-20 is a bit too much of an xp grind) and epic. That's where the fun is for me.

If arcanes aren't fun for you, just don't play them. There's nothing wrong with that. Play the game how you actually enjoy it. You don't have to do everything with every class, especially if you don't enjoy doing some of those things. Given the overpowered nature of arcanes in upper level heroic content, you shouldn't have much trouble finding others to run with who are playing those classes.

Syrrah
02-25-2013, 04:04 AM
Dear OP

I think I see what the problem is:

All your toons are extensively multiclassed. In my experience, either a multiclass is easy to level but a gimp at cap (typically toons to get a life out of the way), or a b1tch to level but excels at cap.

Your guys/gals seem to fit into the last category: peeps that function perfectly at level 20, but the building is painful. It is possible to make levelling such deep splashes easier, but it requires a lot of experience and good gear to make up for the power-gap.

For example, let's have a look at Sylveria (Rogue15 / Arti3 / Fig2). Assuming you play her as pure repeater-build, I would have levelled her as follows:

1: Rogue 1
2: Arti 1
3: Arti 2
4: Arti 3
5: Rogue 2
6: Rogue 3
7: Rogue 4
8: Rogue 5
9: Rogue 6
10: Fighter 1 (although I wonder why take Fighter on such a build?)
11: Fighter 2
12: Rogue 7
.
.
.

Personally, I would even have gone for Rogue13/Arti7 (lvl 7 Arti = Battle Engineer + Insightful Damage). Do you really need those fighter feats?

Same for that FS/Fighter build: of course it will be hard to level a FS that has a delay of 4 levels if you do not have the gear to make up for such gap.

As another poster here already stated, the first 10 levels are far easier than those past level 12. As a consequence, you start to feel the slower power-gain of your toons vs. a pure build around that time.

If you are keen on multiclassing, you should plan the most optimal levelling route in advance and make sure you have good gear for each level beforehand as well.

Second, your altitis results in a lack of focus gear-wise. I know, I used to make alt after alt after alt myself until I started TR'ing 1 toon only.

Basically, now you have good gear (I assume) but you are spreading it over 40 toons. If you were to direct all items to 1 or 2 toons, they would function a lot better (especially the multiclasses) and you will see that your casters get to land their spells as well.

FranOhmsford
02-25-2013, 12:21 PM
Dear OP

I think I see what the problem is:

All your toons are extensively multiclassed. In my experience, either a multiclass is easy to level but a gimp at cap (typically toons to get a life out of the way), or a b1tch to level but excels at cap.

Your guys/gals seem to fit into the last category: peeps that function perfectly at level 20, but the building is painful. It is possible to make levelling such deep splashes easier, but it requires a lot of experience and good gear to make up for the power-gap.

For example, let's have a look at Sylveria (Rogue15 / Arti3 / Fig2). Assuming you play her as pure repeater-build, I would have levelled her as follows:

1: Rogue 1
2: Arti 1
3: Arti 2
4: Arti 3
5: Rogue 2
6: Rogue 3
7: Rogue 4
8: Rogue 5
9: Rogue 6
10: Fighter 1 (although I wonder why take Fighter on such a build?)
11: Fighter 2
12: Rogue 7
.
.
.

Personally, I would even have gone for Rogue13/Arti7 (lvl 7 Arti = Battle Engineer + Insightful Damage). Do you really need those fighter feats?

Same for that FS/Fighter build: of course it will be hard to level a FS that has a delay of 4 levels if you do not have the gear to make up for such gap.

As another poster here already stated, the first 10 levels are far easier than those past level 12. As a consequence, you start to feel the slower power-gain of your toons vs. a pure build around that time.

If you are keen on multiclassing, you should plan the most optimal levelling route in advance and make sure you have good gear for each level beforehand as well.

Second, your altitis results in a lack of focus gear-wise. I know, I used to make alt after alt after alt myself until I started TR'ing 1 toon only.

Basically, now you have good gear (I assume) but you are spreading it over 40 toons. If you were to direct all items to 1 or 2 toons, they would function a lot better (especially the multiclasses) and you will see that your casters get to land their spells as well.

Sylveria was Lvl 16 when Arti was released {Yes now I'd level her up completely differently - Prob 13 Rogue Mech, 7 Arti}.
The 15/3/2 Build However is surprisingly good - The difference I saw upon taking that 1st Arti Level at Lvl 17 was like Night and Day!
Admittedly I did start her off as a Two Weapon fighting Build with Short Swords/Rapiers - Which is why I NEEDED the Fighter Levels!

Enoch started life as a Fighter BEFORE I bought FavSoul {Upon Buying FavSoul and having only 4 characters slots at that time {all full} I decided Enoch would be favoured by the Gods - Flavour - He levelled up as a FavSoul from that point on.

TBH both are bad examples {Characters I made the first week I played DDO} - Enoch is now a DoS Pally, Sylveria is working on Shadowdancer Destiny.


As for saying ALL my toons are extensively multiclassed:

Lieuk - 21 Shintao Monk
Keltenn - 20 HotD Pally, TRd into HotD Pally {Currently Lvl 13}. - He was INSANELY Gimped from Lvl 15 up on his first life!
Molineux - 20 Spellsinger {Yeah I know he was gimped from the start by being WF} - Currently on his second life as a Lvl 10 Earth Savant - Something I want to get thru as fast as possible!
Jelina - 17/3 Battle Cleric - 22 Angel - 19/20 Cleric get's Very little - I wouldn't go 17/3 again BUT she has no issues grouping {soloing is difficult I'll admit}.




Hi,
* From reading your posts, it sounds like you have a lot of characters, most of them at low level. The later levels will become easier as you become more familiar with that content, even if you don't change your approach to builds and gearing.



You've put in some good points BUT I have to take issue with this one!

What the heck do you consider Low Level!

EVERY one of my 24 Characters on Cannith is at Least Lvl 9 {This includes the Turn Specced Cleric I just built in readiness for Cove Shard farming - Sitting at Lvl 9 now}.
Apart from said Turn Specced Cleric Cove Farmer EVERY one of my FIRST Life characters on said Server is at least Lvl 12!
The Two TRs are currently Lvl 10 and Lvl 12 {BUT they are TRs!}.

My Lowest Level of 10 Characters on Sarlona is Lvl 11!

Here's the List for the above servers:

CANNITH
---------

EnochPagett - Paladin 11 {TR1} First Life = FavSoul
Molineux - Sorc 10 {TR1} First Life = Spellsinger
Jelina 22
Lieuk 21
Sylveria 21
UrikofGulg 20
Larystessian & Corelliia 18
Celeia 17
Allanaira, Yaark & Ealdred 16
Xqelia, Tamilyn & Mihtycricket 15
Annatalisa, Lieucille, Qelohmsford & Jilyan 14
Heanton 13
Jaqksen, Lithya & SgtMagnus 12
Ffyra 9

SARLONA
----------

Keltenn - Paladin 13 TR1
Curleag - Druid 11 {Past Life = Ranger/Cleric/Barb}
Franq, Nalpheyn & Nyszsa 18
Athiina 17
Athenamarie & Krymsondeath 16
Aellysha 12
Wulfruna 11


Both Characters I have on Thelanis are Lvl 16 {Yes one was Stoned}!

Khyber - 3 Characters - Lvl 8-11 {Barely played}

Wayfinder - Stoned Clonk sitting at 16 as no groups! - Waiting till Transferring from Wayfinder becomes usable.

FranOhmsford
02-25-2013, 12:33 PM
Maybe arcane casters just aren't for you. That's something I can understand - even though a decently geared and well-played arcane can trivialize almost any content (especially in heroic levels), I can't stand playing them.

I tried leveling a sorc once, got to level 6 over the course of a couple months, and found it so mind-numbingly boring and unfun that I simply deleted it.

I have an older wizard that I had capped at levels 12, 14, and 16 back in the day. I guess I was adequate at playing him, guildies and friends told me I was good at it, but I always felt weird and awkward playing him, like it was completely unintuitive and it just seemed to me like I wasn't doing something right. It was a chore instead of being fun. When the cap went to 20 I tried getting him capped again but it didn't happen. He's currently level 18, less than 2000 xp away from level 19, and he's been at that point for years. I have absolutely zero interest in ever playing him again, and now he's just a mule holding dragonshards and tomes for my other characters.

I don't feel that way about all casters. Divines are great. My first character was a cleric and I liked him so much I made a second one. Nowadays I greatly prefer favored souls, but the point is I have fun playing divines whereas I'd rather just not log in than play an arcane. I love melees and archers too and have done several TRs, all of which have been melee or archer lives. Those classes, both in heroic (especially low to mid level, as 18-20 is a bit too much of an xp grind) and epic. That's where the fun is for me.

If arcanes aren't fun for you, just don't play them. There's nothing wrong with that. Play the game how you actually enjoy it. You don't have to do everything with every class, especially if you don't enjoy doing some of those things. Given the overpowered nature of arcanes in upper level heroic content, you shouldn't have much trouble finding others to run with who are playing those classes.

Yes I'm having trouble with Arcanes - I do however want Lary especially to finish life {final build} as an Elf Wiz/Rogue {Wiz/Ftr/Rogue a la 2nd Ed. would be far more to my liking}.
Now I know NOW that this just isn't possible on a first life toon {I'm going to need plenty of past lives}.

When I created Lary however {1st character in DDO} I had no inkling of High Level play or TRing and Past Lives!
He won't be a Wizard {main class} again for many lives to come {though he may have Wiz Splashes}.

The issue here is that I simply want to get him {and Franq} to Level 20 asap! {Both are currently Lvl 18} so I can TR them!

Unfortunately both are exceedingly difficult to play at Lvl 18 {soloing is out - Even Slayers thanks to getting so little Guild Renown from them} and I find myself logging onto other characters instead!

I'm now hearing that Wail is broken!
So taking Level 19 on Lary {On his last rank of 18 atm} won't make the huge difference it would have Pre Update 17!

kierg10
02-25-2013, 02:34 PM
tbh with your reported struggle with this level range, I really don't think you should TR. More xp will just mean more struggle for you.

kierg10
02-25-2013, 02:36 PM
also: lvl 1-15 is low lvl
16-20 mid level
21-25 is high lvl.

this is only post motu, premotu is different.

Thayion516
02-25-2013, 05:44 PM
My concern is that I find Lvl 13-19 {But especially Lvl 17-19} to be a huge pain for levelling - I don't do BYOH Zerg etc.

Now I have got a few characters past this hump!
Pure: Paladin, Monk, Bard {Spellsinger}
Multi: Battle Cleric, Ranger/Cleric/Barb, Barb/Ftr/Rgr, Rogue/Arti/Ftr.

From this you may surmise that I know of what I speak when saying that those levels were a significant pain compared to any other part of the game.

My Biggest issue however is with my Casters:
Wizards and Sorcs to be exact!
More my Wizards to be honest as I really haven't liked playing Sorcs at any level so far!

I have 2 Wizards currently sitting at 18 {One is an Elf Pale Trapper, The other a Pure Human AM}
Both will be TRd the instant they hit 20 {so long as they have their Shards of Power from Shroud} - I will farm Mats on my other characters.
I currently can't bring myself to play these wizards - Too painful!
How do I get them to 20 with the least hassle {Most likely Pugging}? - Pls don't suggest slayers.


BTW I'd love to see Threnal reworked - I would prefer however for it to be moved to Lvl 17-19 tbh than 10-12 where it would just be overshadowed by Sands + Lordsmarch.

Hmm .. well as you have at least 7 toons past 20 and many more alts, Honestly to me you just seemed burned out. This game is not very big in reality. Turbine has done several additions over the last 2 years to add some content to the game with the last year adding a good deal. BUT, its still rather small. Basically building and leveling is all you can do in DDO.

Things I do to pick me up in game, XP will come with Time:
Farm Raids. They are a good diversion from the normal grind of DDO. Changes your game play enough to be different.
Poach the Auctioneer. I run a side business of looking for godd deals on the broker and reselling for profit. Just last week i found a +1 Paralyzing Greatsword of Pure Good for 40k on the broker, resold it for 100K.
Don't Adventure. Build Toons on the character planner, Run my mouth with Guildies or help some noobs in harbor.

For the XP Hump at lv 15-18 (the worst levels):

NEVER take lv 19! Stay at 18 and bank XP till 20. Staying at 18 keeps open all the elite runs in Vale and the Harbor. You can Run RR, RoM and IQ still at 18. IF u take lv 19, you just screwed yourself on lv 16 quests to farm (9 quests).

Start Leveling Past quests starting at lv 13 or so. Example: Don't start the Lv 13 quests in GH until you are lv 15. Put off Necro4 untill you are lv 16. Stay just high enough above new quests to get the elite streak (2 levels). This will put you in the MUCH better place of going into Vale at lv 18.


IMO, with seemingly 15+ toons, You have Burn Syndrome. Take some time off. Explore a few other games or go on a movie/mini series kick for a few weeks on Couchtuner. There are some excellent anime series on Justdubs or GoGoanimie.

PS and IF IF IF! Turbine was to rework Thernal that would be awesome! According to DDOwiki, levels 15-17 are the LEAST amount of quests. They need to add more in that level range.

Enoach
02-25-2013, 06:40 PM
A couple notes about leveling Wizards and Sorcerers alike.

They build up in power from 1 to 20 and can Nuke an entire room as long as they are left alone. However, Spell points are still their weakness - Not so much if you drink spell point potions by the case, but if you don't I have a few options.

If you solo a quest on your Arcane it is not always the best route to come crashing through the door and killing everything on sight.

Personally on my Wizard/Sorcerer during the 17 to 20 run I tend to run quests going for the least amount of "getting my hands dirty as possible". This will utilize spells like suggestion, dominate and charms. I also utilize stealth more and avoid fights I don't need to fight. There are a lot of quests where you only need the end fight objective to complete.

I also enjoy Explorer/Slayer areas on my casters while leveling. They are easier to navigate, don't have WALLs keeping me in and also make corralling a lot of creatures into a single death zone easier. It is also a great place to practice using spells. A single pass concentrating only on Explorer and killing only what gets in your way can net a decent amount of XP (not on an XP/Min basis mind you) but it is a mental break from a completion.

FranOhmsford
02-26-2013, 11:21 AM
A couple notes about leveling Wizards and Sorcerers alike.

They build up in power from 1 to 20 and can Nuke an entire room as long as they are left alone. However, Spell points are still their weakness - Not so much if you drink spell point potions by the case, but if you don't I have a few options.

If you solo a quest on your Arcane it is not always the best route to come crashing through the door and killing everything on sight.

Personally on my Wizard/Sorcerer during the 17 to 20 run I tend to run quests going for the least amount of "getting my hands dirty as possible". This will utilize spells like suggestion, dominate and charms. I also utilize stealth more and avoid fights I don't need to fight. There are a lot of quests where you only need the end fight objective to complete.

I also enjoy Explorer/Slayer areas on my casters while leveling. They are easier to navigate, don't have WALLs keeping me in and also make corralling a lot of creatures into a single death zone easier. It is also a great place to practice using spells. A single pass concentrating only on Explorer and killing only what gets in your way can net a decent amount of XP (not on an XP/Min basis mind you) but it is a mental break from a completion.

For CC I have the same issue as for instakills - DCs!

Stealth? I've never been able to get stealth to work in DDO - And with Invis bugged atm I doubt it's a good time to practise.

As for Slayers - I'm at home in most of them - No longer having the problems I used to have with killing stuff {there was a time when I thought 3 Barrel was incredibly hard!}
My issue with Slayers is Guild Renown!

In fact I've come to the realization that Guild Renown is behind my general Malaise when it comes to High Lvl content!

The Devs have given us a Renown system that heavily incentivises Zerging certain quests over and over again {those quests like Vol, Devils, Prey that are easy to find groups for}.
Of course; Then you come to the issue of Zerging groups generally not wanting you to go back to the quest giver between each run to get your renown!
And of course My personal issue with BYOH Zerg LFMs.

I know my limitations - I know there's no chance of me running Lvl 16+ Content Elite {Or even Hard in many cases} Solo with Hire at Level AND running Over Level content or Slayers results in Hardly any Guild Renown!

I've come to the realization that I've been asking the WRONG question in this thread - The question I asked was not one that could be answered by anyone other than myself.
Although; Reading your posts has certainly helped.



NOTE TO THE DEVS: I'm NOT asking for Guild Renown in Favour runs of Korthos or Harbour content at Lvl 20!

I'm simply asking that you take a look at the rules you use for Guild Renown {currently akin to Bravery Bonus} and temper them to where IF you're earning XP then Renown should be available too!

If I'm running Vale Slayer for the 30th time {and still getting XP from each rare that turns up + the possible Slayer XP} and I'm Lvl 20 {Still within the Level Range for said slayer} I SHOULD be able to earn Renown! {and not the 1/1,000,000 chance of a single Heroic Deeds!}

If I'm running ADQ1 Elite {SOLO} at Lvl 20 - I'm still within the Level Range to earn XP - Allow me to earn Renown too!
In answer to the opinion that ADQ1 gets run in groups as pre-raid for Epic {How many of those groups run ELITE?}

Thayion516
02-26-2013, 04:04 PM
Ok then.. Let me ask you this.

Why do you prioritize the side game of Guild Renown so highly? Why do you prioritize it over leveling a character? Why are you letting it effect your primary game play strategy (leveling)?

Guild renown is a after thought in DDO (added later), where as leveling a character is a original game premise. Just seems backwards thinking to me.

I also care/do things to help me level the guild I'm in, such as taking a 500 or 1000 GR quest reward, but I would never let renown effect my basic enjoyment of DDO.

Oh and PS. My previous post with running quests is usually with PUGS. I start PUGS all the time. I not a big soloer. True I usually drag peeps thru content and lead the kill counts, but i enjoy playing/talking with peeps as i do it.

RedHost
02-26-2013, 05:18 PM
My concern is that I find Lvl 13-19 {But especially Lvl 17-19} to be a huge pain for levelling - I don't do BYOH Zerg etc.

I'm not trying to be combative, but it is kind of hard to tell if you want advice, or just to complain, or what. The mid to high-heroic levels are a lot harder than the epic levels. You have pointed this out, but without really asking any question. Yes, Epic Hard is a cake walk compared to the high level heroic content. Even without having a Destiny maxed out, characters make huge leaps in power without much, if any, increase in difficulty on Hard. Epic Elite being an entirely different story.

If you are finding that you do not enjoy the mid to high heroic content, then maybe focusing on fewer characters to get them up to the epic content that you enjoy more would be better for you? Or what exactly are you asking?

FranOhmsford
02-26-2013, 07:37 PM
Ok then.. Let me ask you this.

Why do you prioritize the side game of Guild Renown so highly? Why do you prioritize it over leveling a character? Why are you letting it effect your primary game play strategy (leveling)?

Guild renown is a after thought in DDO (added later), where as leveling a character is a original game premise. Just seems backwards thinking to me.

I also care/do things to help me level the guild I'm in, such as taking a 500 or 1000 GR quest reward, but I would never let renown effect my basic enjoyment of DDO.

Oh and PS. My previous post with running quests is usually with PUGS. I start PUGS all the time. I not a big soloer. True I usually drag peeps thru content and lead the kill counts, but i enjoy playing/talking with peeps as i do it.

Possibly because as leader of my own {very small} Guild I have no choice but to prioritize Guild Renown!

When on Sarlona or Khyber {or any other server where I'm a member of someone else's Guild} I prioritize Renown too - So that I do my part!

Unfortunately this means that I've had to forego playing DDO how I used to - Running Quests vastly overlevelled {with a 75 or 99% XP Penalty} on Elite OR running Every Slayer Zone up to Maximum BEFORE taking the next level!
Bravery Bonuses have made finding Groups when 1 or 2 levels over Elite level for a quest Virtually impossible {Except certain chain quests like VoN 1 & 2 or Mystery of Delera's Tomb}.
So it's Now Bravery or Nothing!

Yes it may seem that I just needed to let off steam when creating this thread - Perhaps I did - I have come to different conclusions after reading people's posts here AND I've taken in what's been said in those posts even though I feel some to have been unusually combative {Not yours Thay}!

Maybe I am suffering a bit of burnout - You'll have to shut down DDO to get me to stop playing it however!

Thank you all But maybe we should leave this thread here.