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Madae
02-22-2013, 08:57 PM
It may already be obvious that this prestige is not fully fleshed out yet. I made the mistake of picking it up on my Ranger instead of Arcane Archer, and I'm regretting it.

The Sniper Shot ability just doesn't look or feel right. It has potential to do some big damage (level 9 ranger and I saw it do 111 damage vs. my normal 10-20 with an occasional 50-60 crit with the Bow of Elements), but those were few and far between.

The bluff-like confusion effect doesn't fit all that well with the Ranger. I mean, that by itself is telling me I need to dump 6 levels into ranger to grab DWS, and then start leveling in Rogue so I can actually give myself some sneak attack damage to fully benefit from the ability, but I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to do that - is there actually a build that calls for more than 1-2 levels of multiclass? I find it hard to believe such a build would even be relevant, either, especially considering ranged damage is already pretty bad vs. melee (I see more rogues and rangers going twf than ranged, and I can see why, for the most part).

Also, I've been playing a Rogue Mechanic, and I see no reason to dip into ranger for anything, especially considering I'm already prestiged and outperforming my ranger by 100% - I do what I consider a ridiculous amount of damage as a level 11 Mechanic.

Let's compare weapon damage here;

Shortbow; 1d6, 20, x3
Longbow; 1d8, 20, x3
vs.
Light Repeater; 1d8, 19-20, x2
Heavy Repeater; 1d10, 19-20, x2

Since Ranger is invariably pigeon-holed into being a bow user (due to being given Many Shot and Bow Strength for free), it doesn't make much sense (though maybe it does) to skip bow altogether and go for Repeater. To compete, you would have to spend two extra feats (for Rapid Reload and proficiency) to make up for it, which is sacrificing a lot of potential for Rangers.

Still, even being given Many Shot and Bow Strength, you're practically doing 3 times as much damage with a Repeater, firing 3 shots at a time with a higher threat range (which only gets better with Improved Critical, 17-20 is no joke). The only thing you're really sacrificing is the larger critical damage multiplier (which still isn't all that appealing to me). Since Manyshot is on a cooldown and can't at all compete with a constant 3 shot barrage from repeater, maybe it is worth it... but then again, why even bother being a ranger then when you get nearly the same benefits with a better turn-around by just being a Mechanic with a high int vs. str? Spells? pfft. I bring more usefulness to a party by being a Rogue Mechanic than I would a ranged Ranger. Not to mention the huge return for basic bluff and sneak attack damage.

So, ultimately what this post is boiling down to is this;

Arcane Archer may be decent enough (I don't know), but DWS is pathetic. The constant 4 second spam of Sniper Shot sounds great in theory, but it's a confusing ability with bonuses that make zero sense to a Ranger. In my opinion, Sniper Shot should practically be a guaranteed critical hit, minus the stupid bluff ability (who cares?). Again, someone tell me why anyone would even want to dip 6 levels into Ranger as a Rogue just for Sniper Shot? Just be a Rogue Mechanic...

And let's look at it this way; I do about the same damage, or just about, in 1 shot of my Light Repeater (3 bolts, around 15-20 damage a piece) than I do with one lucky crit with my bow (which is rare at a 20, and if I'm lucky, 60, maybe 70 damage), and that's not even counting my sneak attack or double crit chance with the Repeater... not to mention having way more synergy with my Rogue and high intelligence (adding to my, arguably, most important skills) than a Ranger does with Bow Strength (if you're going to be a specialized ranged ranger, you won't be meleeing much, which is obviously the other side of a high strength minus bow strength).

FestusHood
02-22-2013, 09:09 PM
Worth mentioning that deepwood sniper also increases the range at which you get point blank and sneak attack significantly.

Since i'm planning to tr my arcane archer ranger i may reset my enhancements to deepwood sniper just to see how it works in conjunction with the adrenaline ability from fury of the wild destiny. Seems like it might produce some bona fide sniper type shots.

Madae
02-22-2013, 09:13 PM
Worth mentioning that deepwood sniper also increases the range at which you get point blank and sneak attack significantly.

Since i'm planning to tr my arcane archer ranger i may reset my enhancements to deepwood sniper just to see how it works in conjunction with the adrenaline ability from fury of the wild destiny. Seems like it might produce some bona fide sniper type shots.

Worth mentioning, perhaps, if you actually got a sneak attack bonus as a Ranger... and you don't (which brings us back to the question of "who in their right mind would dip 6 levels into ranger and then go rogue?"). Getting a bonus to point blank range does not tickle my fancy, either. If I'm that worried about being too close to the action, I'll just throw on some Striding boots and run circles around the enemy, avoiding being hit altogether, rather than hoping they never get close to me... which is still a laughable idea, because I don't do nearly enough damage to kill something outright before it gets to me unless I'm using Manyshot or pull off a rare crit.

Perhaps another idea for Sniper Shot would be to add some sort of sneak attack bonus to it, thereby giving some meaning to the bluff-like ability it has... So, maybe after using Sniper Shot, you get a 2d6 damage multiplier for a few seconds, or more. I also didn't see any higher level DWS than just level 1, so that should probably be expanded, and then higher sneak attack bonuses the farther you go in the prestige.

And waiting until level 20 to see any return from DWS doesn't make any sense to me.

FestusHood
02-22-2013, 09:25 PM
Worth mentioning, perhaps, if you actually got a sneak attack bonus as a Ranger... and you don't (which brings us back to the question of "who in their right mind would dip 6 levels into ranger and then go rogue?"). Getting a bonus to point blank range does not tickle my fancy, either. If I'm that worried about being too close to the action, I'll just throw on some Striding boots and run circles around the enemy, avoiding being hit altogether, rather than hoping they never get close to me... which is still a laughable idea, because I don't do nearly enough damage to kill something outright before it gets to me unless I'm using Manyshot or pull off a rare crit.

Perhaps another idea for Sniper Shot would be to add some sort of sneak attack bonus to it, thereby giving some meaning to the bluff-like ability it has... So, maybe after using Sniper Shot, you get a 2d6 damage multiplier for a few seconds, or more. I also didn't see any higher level DWS than just level 1, so that should probably be expanded, and then higher sneak attack bonuses the farther you go in the prestige.

And waiting until level 20 to see any return from DWS doesn't make any sense to me.

I have a character that has 13 levels of rogue and 6 levels of ranger. It's actually not that uncommon of a build. You were specifically talking about rogue mechanics and their damage output. Extending the range at which you can get sneak attacks isn't useless. If you're not getting sneak damage with your mechanic you're missing out on a ton of damage.

The 13 rogue/6 ranger archer i have produces ridiculous amounts of damage during mayshot, way more than what my ranger does. Does an extra 60 or so per shot sound like nothing?

Madae
02-22-2013, 09:36 PM
I have a character that has 13 levels of rogue and 6 levels of ranger. It's actually not that uncommon of a build. You were specifically talking about rogue mechanics and their damage output. Extending the range at which you can get sneak attacks isn't useless. If you're not getting sneak damage with your mechanic you're missing out on a ton of damage.

The 13 rogue/6 ranger archer i have produces ridiculous amounts of damage during mayshot, way more than what my ranger does. Does an extra 60 or so per shot sound like nothing?

That still doesn't convince me that bow is better than repeater than if you just went straight Mechanic. For 20 seconds you can shoot 4 arrows (at 16+ BAB, which doesn't help lower levels)... well, I can shoot 3 bolts all the time, and get a higher sneak attack bonus from the capstone. Not to mention I already have an ability that does what Sniper Shot does... it's called bluff, and I can use it just as often.

FestusHood
02-22-2013, 09:55 PM
That still doesn't convince me that bow is better than repeater than if you just went straight Mechanic. For 20 seconds you can shoot 4 arrows (at 16+ BAB, which doesn't help lower levels)... well, I can shoot 3 bolts all the time, and get a higher sneak attack bonus from the capstone. Not to mention I already have an ability that does what Sniper Shot does... it's called bluff, and I can use it just as often.

That's fine. I have a rogue mechanic too. I didn't realize you were specifically talking only about the bluff ability of deepwood sniper. My rogue archer is an arcane archer, so i can't speak from experience about how useful that ability is. The one thing i do know is that my rogue archer is also very effective in melee combat, due to having all of the two weapon fighting feats.

I'm mostly interested to see what the critical multiplier bonus will do when paired with the massive damage and critical threat bonus from adrenaline. Just for fun. Not talking a new flavor of the month, got to have it type of build. The feat prereqs are the same between arcane archer and deepwood sniper so switching between them is no big deal.

Madae
02-22-2013, 10:01 PM
That's fine. I have a rogue mechanic too. I didn't realize you were specifically talking only about the bluff ability of deepwood sniper. My rogue archer is an arcane archer, so i can't speak from experience about how useful that ability is. The one thing i do know is that my rogue archer is also very effective in melee combat, due to having all of the two weapon fighting feats.

I'm mostly interested to see what the critical multiplier bonus will do when paired with the massive damage and critical threat bonus from adrenaline. Just for fun. Not talking a new flavor of the month, got to have it type of build. The feat prereqs are the same between arcane archer and deepwood sniper so switching between them is no big deal.

I'm talking about the whole of DWS, either 20 leveled Ranger, or 6 Ranger/14 Rogue, not at all comparing to just a straight up 20 Rogue Mechanic. Bow is inferior to Repeater, better synergy with dex/int for Rogue vs. dex/str for Ranger. More damage overall (1 shot bow vs. 3 shot repeater), with the only downside being that you sacrifice the x3 multiplier of a bow for a x2 multiplier of a repeater (big whup...). This is also adding in the better sneak attack you get from being a pure rogue, vs. the split ranger/rogue, which you would only do just for DWS and Sniper Shot.

So, please read what I said again. I thought I explained my position pretty well. DWS and Sniper Shot is just a very bad prestige and makes no sense whatsoever. Waiting for level 20 for epic destiny doesn't make up for it and shouldn't be an excuse for DWS being "good".

FestusHood
02-22-2013, 11:24 PM
I'm talking about the whole of DWS, either 20 leveled Ranger, or 6 Ranger/14 Rogue, not at all comparing to just a straight up 20 Rogue Mechanic. Bow is inferior to Repeater, better synergy with dex/int for Rogue vs. dex/str for Ranger. More damage overall (1 shot bow vs. 3 shot repeater), with the only downside being that you sacrifice the x3 multiplier of a bow for a x2 multiplier of a repeater (big whup...). This is also adding in the better sneak attack you get from being a pure rogue, vs. the split ranger/rogue, which you would only do just for DWS and Sniper Shot.

So, please read what I said again. I thought I explained my position pretty well. DWS and Sniper Shot is just a very bad prestige and makes no sense whatsoever. Waiting for level 20 for epic destiny doesn't make up for it and shouldn't be an excuse for DWS being "good".

Ok so what you are saying is that the deepwood sniper prestige sucks. Yeah, ok. That has been the universal opinion for years since it came out. You should have seen it before they upgraded it.

Loriac
02-23-2013, 12:39 AM
I'm talking about the whole of DWS, either 20 leveled Ranger, or 6 Ranger/14 Rogue, not at all comparing to just a straight up 20 Rogue Mechanic. Bow is inferior to Repeater, better synergy with dex/int for Rogue vs. dex/str for Ranger. More damage overall (1 shot bow vs. 3 shot repeater), with the only downside being that you sacrifice the x3 multiplier of a bow for a x2 multiplier of a repeater (big whup...). This is also adding in the better sneak attack you get from being a pure rogue, vs. the split ranger/rogue, which you would only do just for DWS and Sniper Shot.

So, please read what I said again. I thought I explained my position pretty well. DWS and Sniper Shot is just a very bad prestige and makes no sense whatsoever. Waiting for level 20 for epic destiny doesn't make up for it and shouldn't be an excuse for DWS being "good".

Repeaters are stronger at low levels, but bows become (much) stronger at high levels, particularly if you only use them situationally (i.e. for burst damage when manyshot is off timer).

To apply Int damage to xbows, you have to lock yourself into one of two classes - artificer 6 (for insightful damage) or mechanic I (again, at least 6 levels of rogue). Bow strength meanwhile can in theory be picked up by anyone.

Strength scales much better than Int (i.e. it can be boosted higher), and has synergy with melee combat. This makes it a much better choice, as DDO favors melee combat to ranged combat in general.

Reading between the lines a little, it seems to me that your ranger build has dumped strength to an extent - imo its much better to build a ranger, particularly a pure ranger, as strength based. In fact, the feats given to ranger even support dumping dex fully, because you still get improved precise shot and manyshot even without meeting the high dexterity requirements. If you rebuilt your ranger as str based, with level ups into str, you'd see a lot more than '10-20' damage hits with a bow. I'd expect damage in the range 20-35 base for a ranger using bow of elements tbh at level 11.

The crit profiles are identical mathematically - 19-20x2 is 1.05x base damage (accounting for misses on a 1) whilst 20x3 is also 1.05x base damage. With improved critical ranged, you get 1.15x base damage in both cases. You obviously see more crits with the repeater, which again makes them seem more powerful at low levels (as mob hp is so low that even a 2x crit is devastating) but at higher levels the advantage probably goes to the bow, as the x3 crit can help you punch through DR (particularly for things like earth elementals which have flat dr against all physical damage).

The deepwood sniper PRE is an odd one imo. Its pretty much useless for a pure ranger, as tempest is better if melee'ing and AA is better if using bows. However, for a non HElf AA splash, its actually an interesting choice imo. It increases burst damage with the bow further, and is useful for any build that takes advantage of manyshot bursts without going all-in on AA or 10k stars.

For example, if you made a non-HElf 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Rog say, then deepwood sniper becomes a viable alternative to tempest, particularly if you go two-handed rather than two-weapon.

Madae
02-23-2013, 01:44 AM
But what about the Rogue capstone? An additional 4d6 and +2 int, so more base damage for your repeater, plus the 4d6 die, on top of the 10d6 for being 20 (or 19). I mean, that's an extra 24 possible damage alone from the capstone, which is on the lower end of your single-shot ranger attacks (20-35).

I really don't see any type of ranged dps ranger, even AA, out-damaging a mechanic. Granted, I don't know anything about end game rangers, or end game rogues for that matter, but it seems highly unlikely to me, since a rogue will likely not have aggro anyway, and will constantly get that sneak attack bonus on every bolt fired (x3). Also, and even though I hear there aren't too many traps in the high end that people even bother with, being able to do such a thing as a rogue effectively seems more useful to me (damage and utility) than just someone who is straight damage.

Plus, if you're primarily stacking strength on your ranger, doesn't that make your to-hit go down the tube? And who is playing a ranged dps ranger and trying to melee? You have zero feats making such a thing viable, because you likely focused on bows. I don't see how that is relevant.

Anyway, let me know where I go astray, because like I said, I don't really know anything about the end game. Maybe I'm wrong.

I didn't dump str on my Ranger, either. I have 14 base, 18 with some bracers. I have 32 dex though. I never miss a shot. This vs. my Rogue with 26 dex and 26 int. This is a +4 modifier difference there, but still. My Ranger is level 9 and a 28 point elf. My rogue is level 11, and a 28 point drow. They do about the same damage per 1 hit (1 bow, 1 of the 3 bolts), with 1 shot of the repeater (all 3 bolts, non crit) equaling 1 crit from my bow. I think my Rogue also fires about twice as fast as my Ranger, so that's another thing to look at - bow only gets Rapid Shot, whereas Repeaters get Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload. Doing some weird build with a Ranger to take advantage of DWS is sacrificing one of the few things that may help change my mind about the whole thing; the ranger capstone.

FestusHood
02-23-2013, 02:13 AM
But what about the Rogue capstone? An additional 4d6 and +2 int, so more base damage for your repeater, plus the 4d6 die, on top of the 10d6 for being 20 (or 19). I mean, that's an extra 24 possible damage alone from the capstone, which is on the lower end of your single-shot ranger attacks (20-35).

I really don't see any type of ranged dps ranger, even AA, out-damaging a mechanic. Granted, I don't know anything about end game rangers, or end game rogues for that matter, but it seems highly unlikely to me, since a rogue will likely not have aggro anyway, and will constantly get that sneak attack bonus on every bolt fired (x3). Also, and even though I hear there aren't too many traps in the high end that people even bother with, being able to do such a thing as a rogue effectively seems more useful to me (damage and utility) than just someone who is straight damage.

Plus, if you're primarily stacking strength on your ranger, doesn't that make your to-hit go down the tube? And who is playing a ranged dps ranger and trying to melee? You have zero feats making such a thing viable, because you likely focused on bows. I don't see how that is relevant.

Anyway, let me know where I go astray, because like I said, I don't really know anything about the end game. Maybe I'm wrong.

I didn't dump str on my Ranger, either. I have 14 base, 18 with some bracers. I have 32 dex though.

You have to remember that rangers get all of the two weapon fighting feats for free, so the only ones you would have to take to melee effectively would be improved critical and probably power attack.

As far as to hit goes with low dex, you could take the feat precision and that would make up for about 16 points of dex as far as to hit goes. It would also be useful for archery because of the fortification bypass effect, at least against enemies with high fort.

My rogue/ranger is dex based and built more or less like your ranger, with only a functional 18 strength, but a 34 dex.
She melees most of the time when she is not using manyshot, she has a blinding weapon that enables sneak attack most of the time, so she relies on that for most of her damage. Still, the amount of damage she puts out during manyshot is pretty amazing. When she uses it, it's a virtual guarantee that she will pull aggro, but an item with improved deception will keep whatever you are shooting at spinning around the whole time.

I like my mechanic too, he's only level 10 but he really pumps out the damage. It's a good thing that different classes and builds can be effective in their own way. It makes the game infinitely more interesting.

I'm curious now if the deepwood sniper shot would apply to all the arrows in a manyshot burst, the way adrenaline does. If so, i'm actually pretty anxious to respec my hybrid into a deepwood sniper just to test out the bluff aspect of it, it could be really useful. The ddo wiki seems to imply that some of the new sniper shot abilities don't work with heavy repeating crossbows, so it might not matter how effective it would be on a mechanic.

Madae
02-23-2013, 02:25 AM
I'm curious now if the deepwood sniper shot would apply to all the arrows in a manyshot burst, the way adrenaline does. If so, i'm actually pretty anxious to respec my hybrid into a deepwood sniper just to test out the bluff aspect of it, it could be really useful. The ddo wiki seems to imply that some of the new sniper shot abilities don't work with heavy repeating crossbows, so it might not matter how effective it would be on a mechanic.

I've tried this, but I didn't notice whether or not it did. Sniper Shot is just a regular shot with a slightly higher chance at critting, which means if the two did stack (I'm leaning towards no as first impression), it would be a very rare occurrence that you would get two of them (let alone four) back to back to see. As often as I used Sniper Shot, I can remember maybe 2 times that I pulled a noteworthy crit that was out of the ordinary; around 90 and around 110 damage, vs. my normal 50-60. All the other shots were just regular damage, plus the confuse.

I would also not dare try to do the things on my Ranger that I can easily do with my Rogue. You say your Mechanic is only 10? Have you played one any farther than that? Or just Ranger? I'm curious to see if your opinion changes the more you play your Mechanic and build it up. Sure, Manyshot can pull good numbers... for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. However, I pull consistently high numbers with my repeater for as long as I have bolts, on top of my obscene sneak attack damage, and I don't even have tomes or seeker items. I crit for about 50 with my repeater, too, which is not much less than my bow. Still, slight level and stat difference, though the crit bonus is pretty much the same (Icy Burst on my Repeater vs. Shocking Burst on my bow, both +2). I would probably get in the 70's more often with my Ranger if I had that extra +4 modifier to damage, so that widens the gap a little bit, but we're still talking about half the crit rate and 2 less attacks per round, with the naturally slower attack speed a bow has (again, I fire about half to two times as fast with my repeater than I do my bow with relevant feats).

Madae
02-23-2013, 02:29 AM
I suppose an easy test of this would just be to use Sniper Shot with Manyshot going to see if they get confused, then you would know it stacked. I will test.

Madae
02-23-2013, 02:36 AM
Ok, I tried it twice. First time I ended up hitting the mob right off the bat for 104 damage on the first hit and it died. So I had to wait two minutes to try it again. Second test, I shot 3 times, the bluff only applied on the first shot, and, unusually, I ended up critting on two of them for 67 and then 74 (on the second shot of manyshot + sniper)... 30 point damage difference, so I don't think it worked on those.

Wiki also says that it was confirmed awhile back that it doesn't work on Repeaters, but that was 1.3. Maybe that changed, but I'm still leaning towards no. The bluff only working on the first shot kind of seals the deal for me.

FestusHood
02-23-2013, 03:24 AM
Ok, I tried it twice. First time I ended up hitting the mob right off the bat for 104 damage on the first hit and it died. So I had to wait two minutes to try it again. Second test, I shot 3 times, the bluff only applied on the first shot, and, unusually, I ended up critting on two of them for 67 and then 74 (on the second shot of manyshot + sniper)... 30 point damage difference, so I don't think it worked on those.

Wiki also says that it was confirmed awhile back that it doesn't work on Repeaters, but that was 1.3. Maybe that changed, but I'm still leaning towards no. The bluff only working on the first shot kind of seals the deal for me.

The character i was thinking of trying out the sniper shot with is epic level and working on the fury of the wild destiny. He's currently at the fourth tier of it, and basically every shot is an automatic crit with adrenaline on. If you use adrenalin with a manyshot volley it will apply to all 4 shots. A regular crit for me is probably around 120 for the base damage. An adrenaline crit is around 450-500. That's why i wanted to try the sniper shot because it adds an extra x2 to the crit multiplier, so i suspect those shots would hit for around 700-800. Now THAT'S a sniper shot.

Loriac
02-23-2013, 07:39 AM
But what about the Rogue capstone? An additional 4d6 and +2 int, so more base damage for your repeater, plus the 4d6 die, on top of the 10d6 for being 20 (or 19). I mean, that's an extra 24 possible damage alone from the capstone, which is on the lower end of your single-shot ranger attacks (20-35).

20-35 was for a level 11 ranger. At level 20, its going to be a lot higher than this, and you'd be using much better bows. My preference is for the Silver bow at low levels, Bow of Sinew at mid-levels, and Pinion as an end-game weapon. Silver bow and Bow of Sinew both have crit profiles of 19-20x3, which is much better than the standard repeater profile. The Bow of Sinew even does x4 on natural rolls of 19 or 20, making it even better.

The rogue is very high dps (if melee) due to SA damage, and this is a major feature of the class. Mechanic rogues are actually quite bad compared to assassin rogues imo.



I really don't see any type of ranged dps ranger, even AA, out-damaging a mechanic. Granted, I don't know anything about end game rangers, or end game rogues for that matter, but it seems highly unlikely to me, since a rogue will likely not have aggro anyway, and will constantly get that sneak attack bonus on every bolt fired (x3). Also, and even though I hear there aren't too many traps in the high end that people even bother with, being able to do such a thing as a rogue effectively seems more useful to me (damage and utility) than just someone who is straight damage.

Traps are easy enough; 1 level of rogue to open up the key skills, and then classes with a reasonable allocation of skill points per level allow you to have sufficient trapskills for all difficulties.

A mechanic using repeaters may well outdamage a full-time-ranged ranger or AA, but such builds are (usually) poor at best. The repeater mechanic will be completely outclassed by a melee rogue or by a ranger using a mix of melee and ranged.



Plus, if you're primarily stacking strength on your ranger, doesn't that make your to-hit go down the tube? And who is playing a ranged dps ranger and trying to melee? You have zero feats making such a thing viable, because you likely focused on bows. I don't see how that is relevant.

No it doesn't, funnily enough. With the ac change to the combat system, hitting is quite easy now. A ranger with a starting dex of 14, items, enhancement, tomes, buffs etc can expect to be at around 30 dex at endgame, which is more than enough to hit. All rangers get the full TWF tree, so they can (and should) melee. The only feats a pure ranger needs to take for bows is Point Blank Shot and Combat Archery (if really desired; personally, I wouldn't bother because the dex requirement is too high). I would actually take neither feat on a ranger. Far better to take the power attack, cleave, great cleave, imp. crit: slashing, overwhelming critical line and go Legendary Dreadnaught or Fury of the Wild at end game.



Anyway, let me know where I go astray, because like I said, I don't really know anything about the end game. Maybe I'm wrong.

I didn't dump str on my Ranger, either. I have 14 base, 18 with some bracers. I have 32 dex though. I never miss a shot. This vs. my Rogue with 26 dex and 26 int. This is a +4 modifier difference there, but still. My Ranger is level 9 and a 28 point elf. My rogue is level 11, and a 28 point drow. They do about the same damage per 1 hit (1 bow, 1 of the 3 bolts), with 1 shot of the repeater (all 3 bolts, non crit) equaling 1 crit from my bow. I think my Rogue also fires about twice as fast as my Ranger, so that's another thing to look at - bow only gets Rapid Shot, whereas Repeaters get Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload. Doing some weird build with a Ranger to take advantage of DWS is sacrificing one of the few things that may help change my mind about the whole thing; the ranger capstone.

Your ranger is essentially a dumped strength build, because as you level it will get further and further behind as your level ups are going elsewhere. I'd go with a base of 16, and assuming a +2 tome, level 4 and 8 points into str, and a +6 item, you'd be at str 30 with ram's might and ship buffs (at level 11). Assuming a starting dex of 16 (as elves get +2), and a +2 tome, the same ranger could be on dex 28 with enhancements, +6 item, and ship buffs. 28 dex is more than enough to hit reliably.

A repeater will fire 120 bolts per minute, i.e. 40 3-bolt volleys (I've tested this on my capped artificer), but I'm not sure what bow fire rates are. I'd be surprised if it was less than 1 arrow per second however, so at best the repeater is firing 2 shots for every 1 on the bow (and ofc, if you're using bows optimally you'll only switch to them when manyshot is up, which gives you 4x the rate of fire).

The key point to understand is that a rogue can dump strength because of sneak attack. A ranger cannot afford to dump str, because apart from favored enemy damage, he doesn't really get much to boost his damage. Dex based rangers are going to be very poor dps, and are one of the key reasons why rangers acquired a reputation for being poor combatants.

sandypaws
02-23-2013, 08:15 AM
IMO, ranged damage in general is pretty gimped until end-game, unless you jump through half a dozen hoops and make sure you have the best bows/arrows against everything.

Re: adrenaline multishot and sniper, if it works you should be using at 4x~1700-1800ish, easily, against non-immobilized critters.

FranOhmsford
02-23-2013, 08:32 AM
IMO, ranged damage in general is pretty gimped until end-game, unless you jump through half a dozen hoops and make sure you have the best bows/arrows against everything.

Re: adrenaline multishot and sniper, if it works you should be using at 4x~1700-1800ish, easily, against non-immobilized critters.

Try an Arti/Rogue Mech Multi Den.

13/7 Rogue/Arti works great
I expect the opposite works pretty well too.

Also - My Rogue Mech {Sylveria} started out as a Two Weapon Fighting {Short Swords/Rapiers} Drow.
Come Lvl 13-17 she was so gimped it was unbelievable {I had 2 Fighter Levels for feats}.
18, 19, 20 = Arti Levels and her Playablility went thru the roof!

P.S. She now has a base Disable DC before Buffs and Tools of 78! {At Lvl 21}!
Having seen the thread about Epic GH Trap DCs I'm inclined to believe that the Devs have messed up again - This is a Lvl 24/25 Area with DCs that I can hit on a 1 on a Lvl 21 character! {with +5 tools of course}.

ulgabi
02-23-2013, 08:59 AM
Not sure I know what Im talking about, but cant you just take 6 lvl of fighter and boost your bow dmg with kensai?

Madae
02-23-2013, 10:48 AM
20-35 was for a level 11 ranger. At level 20, its going to be a lot higher than this, and you'd be using much better bows. My preference is for the Silver bow at low levels, Bow of Sinew at mid-levels, and Pinion as an end-game weapon. Silver bow and Bow of Sinew both have crit profiles of 19-20x3, which is much better than the standard repeater profile. The Bow of Sinew even does x4 on natural rolls of 19 or 20, making it even better.

And better Repeaters for Mechanic? I'm still saying that I do three times as much damage nearly twice as fast as my Ranger on my Mechanic. Regardless of what level the Ranger and Rogue are. If you are getting DWS, you are dipping into Rogue, and the result of doing just do not make any sense or compare at all to just a straight Ranger or Rogue. That's the point here.


No it doesn't, funnily enough. With the ac change to the combat system, hitting is quite easy now. A ranger with a starting dex of 14, items, enhancement, tomes, buffs etc can expect to be at around 30 dex at endgame, which is more than enough to hit. All rangers get the full TWF tree, so they can (and should) melee. The only feats a pure ranger needs to take for bows is Point Blank Shot and Combat Archery (if really desired; personally, I wouldn't bother because the dex requirement is too high). I would actually take neither feat on a ranger. Far better to take the power attack, cleave, great cleave, imp. crit: slashing, overwhelming critical line and go Legendary Dreadnaught or Fury of the Wild at end game.

Are we talking about ranged, or melee in this?


The key point to understand is that a rogue can dump strength because of sneak attack. A ranger cannot afford to dump str, because apart from favored enemy damage, he doesn't really get much to boost his damage. Dex based rangers are going to be very poor dps, and are one of the key reasons why rangers acquired a reputation for being poor combatants.

Ok, I deleted most of the melee stuff you said. Don't bring melee in to this, please. That's not what the discussion is about. Making comparisons like that have no place in this thread. This is about a Deepwood Sniper Ranger, vs. Arcane Archer (somewhat), vs. Mechanic, and how they compare. This has nothing to do with melee. At all. So please stop.

And a Mechanic can dump strength because int is where he gets his damage bonus, which is identical to the Ranger in most aspects, because he gets his damage bonus from str -for ranged weapons-. The idea of a Ranger and a Mechanic are almost alike in every respect, just different ways of building it (str vs. int, repeaters vs. bows), but I see nothing a ranger has that makes it more appealing than my Mechanic at ranged damage, and I've pointed out the reasons why half a dozen times already.

The bigger crits (x3) do not make up for my awesome sneak attack bonus - I'm sorry, it just doesn't. Maybe the two equal out (slower attacks and crit damage bows vs, my sustained bolt barrage x3 with crits), but what about time to kill? I'd actually like to see some side by side comparisons of ideally specced ranged AA/DWS vs. Mechanic.

Madae
02-23-2013, 10:57 AM
IMO, ranged damage in general is pretty gimped until end-game, unless you jump through half a dozen hoops and make sure you have the best bows/arrows against everything.

Apparently that is the common agreement, but that's not what I'm arguing here. I'm arguing that DWS is terrible in comparison to Mechanic, and Arcane Archer by proxy. Sniper Shot just makes no sense and doesn't help DWS at all, coupled with very tame bonuses (the crit chance) and a side effect that makes no sense on a Ranger (the bluff).

Madae
02-23-2013, 11:07 AM
And the one thing some people keep bringing up here is that a Ranger (not a DWS, apparently) that builds primarily ranged, can sacrifice a bunch of feats to augment such a thing and pick up add-ons to his free melee feats, thus making him a hybrid range/melee character; doing manyshots when possible, then moving in to melee when its down.

Ok, I understand that, and that's all fine and dandy and stuff... but that's not what this thread is about. We're talking about purely ranged damage here, not min-maxing to be the best player you can be. Crazy idea, I know...

I want to range as my Mechanic, its arguably all I can do, so I do it and I think I do it well (very well, in fact). I play my Ranger, I want to range as my Ranger and I happened to choose DWS instead of AA, and yet I'm seeing very poor numbers in comparison. DWS is also making me believe I have to do some weird dipping build to get anything out of it (6 ranger, rogue and whatever else on top of that), which does not strike me as being a good idea considering what one would get just being a straight up 20 AA or 20 Mechanic.

You cannot make a 20 DWS and be useful. I'm not even 20 and I can tell you that with 100% certainty. That's the point of this. If you have a contention, please do not trail off that path. I want to hear your opinions and how I may be wrong and that there is something I'm maybe missing here, but not if it tries to justify it by bringing in something that's not part of the argument (ie. melee).


+++

It's also the wording of DWS that gives off a very different vibe than what you're trying to say. I see AA as utility, being able to counter any type of resistance, on top of being able to create an endless supply of good arrows for the level. I see Tempest as being the melee route to augment their natural bonuses of having melee capability. DWS is telling me it should be a combination of Rogue/Ranger, and it just does not get that benefit without nixing it's capstone and building awkwardly - in addition to having only one level of prestige bonuses and what I pointed out above by losing the benefit of just being a full Rogue and Ranger.

Loriac
02-23-2013, 11:27 AM
Don't bring melee in to this, please. That's not what the discussion is about. Making comparisons like that have no place in this thread. This is about a Deepwood Sniper Ranger, vs. Arcane Archer (somewhat), vs. Mechanic, and how they compare. This has nothing to do with melee. At all. So please stop.


Your OP stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about how to build rangers properly. You asked when would anyone ever use DeS vs AA or Mechanic. Easy: if I have a build that I have splashed 6 ranger levels on, but am not an Elf or HElf, and I don't want tempest (e.g. I'm using 2H fighting) but can spare a feat for WF:Ranged, then DeS is a decent PRE to take for the extra burst damage it gives you.

E.g. I could see a HOrc 12Ftr/6Ranger/2Monk or Rogue, with Kensai II in say greataxes or mauls taking DeS. I actually put together a theoretical build around this concept in fact. Such a build would have excellent burst manyshot / sniper shot capability (particularly if in FotW and using adrenaline shots).

Madae
02-23-2013, 11:29 AM
Your OP stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about how to build rangers properly. You asked when would anyone ever use DeS vs AA or Mechanic. Easy: if I have a build that I have splashed 6 ranger levels on, but am not an Elf or HElf, and I don't want tempest (e.g. I'm using 2H fighting) but can spare a feat for WF:Ranged, then DeS is a decent PRE to take for the extra burst damage it gives you.

E.g. I could see a HOrc 12Ftr/6Ranger/2Monk or Rogue, with Kensai II in say greataxes or mauls taking DeS. I actually put together a theoretical build around this concept in fact. Such a build would have excellent burst manyshot / sniper shot capability (particularly if in FotW and using adrenaline shots).

Ok, thanks for your input.

Karavek
02-23-2013, 12:19 PM
As someone who has capped an arty, a mechanic rogue, a clonkcher, and various ranger rogue blends I feel I can someone safely say my words should hold wieght for you OP if you have even half the wis score of a competent ranger.

Pure ranged is although nice in theory, never what a ranger should be doing. A ranger is a hybrid skill centric class, not unlike the rogue, and they blend together well. As many you try to paint the picture of power under ideal conditions while forgetting the many situational variances we encounter in DDO.

Rarely is ranged DPS the best option, especially in end game it was long ago proven by math geeks on the forums that an AA in many shot with slaying arrows is the top ranged, and in the top 3 spike dmg builds of DDO.

Keep in mind please ranger is not RANGED COMBAT SPECIALIST. Its actually in DDO the best built in ranged user because it still grants plenty of melee based feats automatically, making it a very newb friendly class. Certainly there is little a fighter cant do with a bow equally if not better ofcourse if they are elf or helf and can splash AA in.

Its Arcane Archers that are the ARCHERS of DDO, and that is just the plain hard truth. IMO its the elf haters who still want to be top end bow users that tend to gripe the most about Deepwood sniper when for whatever reason they try DS seeing AA as too elfy.

As others have said DS increasing the range at which SA is possible can have a huge impact for a rogue splash.

Frankly imo mechanic is as gimp for rogue as DS for ranger. YOu cant ever expect me to think a pure rogue mech will do the job better then my rogue fighter with just a splash of arty for all xbow prof and unlimited bolts. BTW unlimited ammo is a huge factor in any ranged build, lacking either AA or arty means carrying either scrolls or a wand of flame arrow or the like.

You could do a 12assassin/6 ranger/2arty helf AA and be probably among the most constant ranged DPS builds with unlimited ammo, and still have decent twf melee ability for the times being ranged is just impractical.

Thinking purists is foolish as capstone a false trap for the hide bound who didnt like coming to 3E+ rules and discovering multi classing was THE WAY it was suppose to be done. That PRC becoming PRE was almost certainly another sacrifice made to them to try to avoid riling up to many of the old timers while placating the D20 fans who revel in the constant challenge of working in as many lvls in differing PRC as we could with a given concept.

I can assure you even leveling as soon as YOu are an AA with many shot your life is pretty tolerable but you must grasp full time ranged DPS is a very skill based play style that can take years of meta game experience to know when to and not to use it. Remember when you are in teams kiting can be seen as a huge no no by alot of players, they would rather you put the bow away and stand side by side with them rather then chase after mobs you caught early aggro with spike dps.

So yes DS sucks, always has even in PnP no one takes it on a character they actually want to see thrive.

Whatever your reason for taking it, it was a poor one. Get over it, and if you want to be a ranged killer be an AA and work it into some useful multi class combo with helf or elf.

PS my main these days is a 13/6/1 assassin stalwart defender who when not sword and boarding is very handy with repeaters, does so much dps with a single finesse weapon and SD he out DPS's many a pure str/wis stunning fist monk, is very self sufficient and works well in virtually every pug where people dont try and push their preconceptions on how I should HAVE to play the game. As for among my friends needless to say for example during CCs preview day they clamored for me to join and bring my speed and torch running skills while knowing Id rarely need any assistance myself and be quick to aid them if in need anywhere a leafon on the whirlwind would come blowing through like a storm of steel.

Dont depend on these forums, play the game, find waht works for you, if at first it feels gimp rethink & reroll and try again. Lord knows back in the lvl 10 cap days I deleted more rogues and rangers then you likely will ever roll up. All after they hit cap and didnt live up to my expectations. Some classes and play styles are just not within the reach of newcomers.

Karavek
02-23-2013, 12:22 PM
Your OP stems from a fundamental misunderstanding about how to build rangers properly. You asked when would anyone ever use DeS vs AA or Mechanic. Easy: if I have a build that I have splashed 6 ranger levels on, but am not an Elf or HElf, and I don't want tempest (e.g. I'm using 2H fighting) but can spare a feat for WF:Ranged, then DeS is a decent PRE to take for the extra burst damage it gives you.

E.g. I could see a HOrc 12Ftr/6Ranger/2Monk or Rogue, with Kensai II in say greataxes or mauls taking DeS. I actually put together a theoretical build around this concept in fact. Such a build would have excellent burst manyshot / sniper shot capability (particularly if in FotW and using adrenaline shots).

some time ago i made for fun a 7monk/6 deepwood/ 7rogue acrobat who used bow and staff. not an end all be all build, but effective and fun and basically using the same premise of your build. I suggest you go for it and give yours a try i have no doubt you would enjoy it as much as I did mine.

FestusHood
02-23-2013, 01:14 PM
Ok i want to report back that i went and reset my enhancement on my AA and took the deepwood sniper prestige to see how it worked with fury of the wild. Some good news.

When you activate adrenaline and manyshot, and then fire a volley using the sniper shot, the crit multiplier bonuses apply to all 4 arrows. A friend and i were playing the level 25 version of some of the planar palace challenges, and then the marilith showed up. I hit adrenaline, then i hit manyshot and fired off the first volley with the sniper shot, and it knocked off 80% of her life bar. 4 1500 point crits, not counting any effects from the burst effects, and superior heartseeker on the bow i was using. So i was pretty happy with that.

Another thing i was pretty happy about was that i was able to one shot any of the trash mobs in there with a single adrenaline fueled sniper shot. Or as many as i could line up with improved precise shot. Now i know you jaded vets on the forum here will yawn about this, but for me it was pretty cool. Note that i am almost never buffed to the gills the way most of you describe. I rarely even bother to get ship buffs, I rarely mess around with rage pots, don't have yugo pots, don't have a pinion. So i'm usually running with about a 40 strength, after rams might and primal scream.

I figured losing the 500 point hits from the slayer arrows would be rough, but the increase from the sniper shot is more when i couple it with adrenaline. If someone just wants to play around with it, it's actually quite fun, and you could actually one shot kill a lot of mobs from well outside of their detection range and pretend you are an actual sniper.

About the bluff aspect. I like it. So much that i can't wait to respec my rogue/ranger into this to try it out. The bluff, as far as i can tell has no save, can work on multiple mobs via improved precise shot, and best of all, it has absolutely no animation delay. I haven't tested yet if it causes a cooldown on the actual bluff skill, but i suspect it doesn't since it has no animation.

On an slightly related note, when i was swapping my enhancements, i noticed that they had removed the tootip that tells you what prerequisites are needed to take certain enhancements, particularly the prestiges. Kind of a pain i had to google to figure out exactly how to get the sniper.

Madae
02-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Ok i want to report back that i went and reset my enhancement on my AA and took the deepwood sniper prestige to see how it worked with fury of the wild. Some good news.

When you activate adrenaline and manyshot, and then fire a volley using the sniper shot, the crit multiplier bonuses apply to all 4 arrows. A friend and i were playing the level 25 version of some of the planar palace challenges, and then the marility showed up. I hit adrenaline, then i hit manyshot and fired off the first volley with the sniper shot, and it knocked off 80% of her life bar. 4 1500 point crits, not counting any effects from the burst effects, and superior heartseeker on the bow i was using. So i was pretty happy with that.

Another thing i was pretty happy about was that i was able to one shot any of the trash mobs in there with a single adrenaline fueled sniper shot. Or as many as i could line up with improved precise shot. Now i know you jaded vets on the forum here will yawn about this, but for me it was pretty cool. Note that i am almost never buffed to the gills the way most of you describe. I rarely even bother to get ship buffs, I rarely mess around with rage pots, don't have yugo pots, don't have a pinion. So i'm usually running with about a 40 strength, after rams might and primal scream.

I figured losing the 500 point hits from the slayer arrows would be rough, but the increase from the sniper shot is more when i couple it with adrenaline. If someone just wants to play around with it, it's actually quite fun, and you could actually one shot kill a lot of mobs from well outside of their detection range and pretend you are an actual sniper.

About the bluff aspect. I like it. So much that i can't wait to respec my rogue/ranger into this to try it out. The bluff, as far as i can tell has no save, can work on multiple mobs via improved precise shot, and best of all, it has absolutely no animation delay. I haven't tested yet if it causes a cooldown on the actual bluff skill, but i suspect it doesn't since it has no animation.

On an slightly related note, when i was swapping my enhancements, i noticed that they had removed the tootip that tells you what prerequisites are needed to take certain enhancements, particularly the prestiges. Kind of a pain i had to google to figure out exactly how to get the sniper.

This is still banking on level 20 abilities to see any kind of return from DWS. Sorry, but I just don't see games as supposed to be playing that way. You could make the argument that "it gets better in the end", but what about the 19 levels before that? The game is supposed to be fun and entertaining the entire way through, not just for that last part that someone may or may not care about. There's also all that gear you've stacked up over the time you've been playing, probably some of the best there is. That doesn't really help a level 10.

And yes, I know a lot of strength in D&D comes for "preparing for the end", but there are enough classes out there that don't have the problem Ranger DWS has. There is no draw to play it now or ever, especially considering AA apparently does well enough without those extra perks thrown in.

Seikojin
02-23-2013, 02:51 PM
Here is the wiki on DeS:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_Sniper_enhancements

For the Bluff part, it says as if, not by. So it sounds like skill does not matter.

I like that they increased Sniper shot to what it is. I however thing that its effect should increase as you level.
"Performs a ranged attack with a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to critical threat multiplier. If the character successfully damages its target, the target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the Bluff skill."

To

"Performs a ranged attack with a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to critical threat multiplier at ranger lvl 6, and an additional +2 bonuse to-hit, +1 to critical threat range, and +1 to critical threat Multiplier at levels 12 and 18 ranger respectively. If the character successfully damages its target, the target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the Bluff skill."

They could make Des 2 and 3 do that, so there is actual enhancements spent on it. Maybe offer increases to the base shot and offer additional snipe shots for the different tiers.

Madae
02-23-2013, 03:04 PM
Here is the wiki on DeS:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_Sniper_enhancements

For the Bluff part, it says as if, not by. So it sounds like skill does not matter.

I like that they increased Sniper shot to what it is. I however thing that its effect should increase as you level.
"Performs a ranged attack with a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to critical threat multiplier. If the character successfully damages its target, the target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the Bluff skill."

To

"Performs a ranged attack with a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to critical threat multiplier at ranger lvl 6, and an additional +2 bonuse to-hit, +1 to critical threat range, and +1 to critical threat Multiplier at levels 12 and 18 ranger respectively. If the character successfully damages its target, the target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the Bluff skill."

They could make Des 2 and 3 do that, so there is actual enhancements spent on it. Maybe offer increases to the base shot and offer additional snipe shots for the different tiers.

That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. It just needs to scale in some way.

MartinusWyllt
02-23-2013, 03:06 PM
I've been using 6/6/6 arti/rogue/ranger with the last 2 in whichever past life I want upon TRing.

While I miss blade barrier the engineer/mechanic/sniper combo plays nicely enough that I can get where I want to get by myself. Leveling this, taking artificer levels first, then a couple of rogue then 4 ranger requires feat swapping precise shot, as that's useful early, so you don't lose the use of the free ranger precise shot...allows picking-up dodge/motility.

So far just the extra point blank range with a rad II repeater is fun. Toven's hammer still hits pretty hard with just 6 artificer levels.

Not sure about epic performance, but might have an idea this life around as I want to finish an ED or two before TRing again.

sandypaws
02-23-2013, 03:26 PM
Fran: Sorry, I mis-spoke. I meant more that your generic AA-type archer, whether DS or AA, is going to have 'meh' DPS until you have EDs. Mechs/arties are another story entirely.

To the OP: If your main concern is 1-20, and you require yourself to stay pure, and you do not use EDs, then yes, DS is gimp. I'm not sure this is a bad thing. The fact that DS only has tier I basically screams, to me, that it is meant for 6 ranger splashes. (Or the dev doing the pres just stopped, for whatever reason). If you play any epic at all, you will see a huge amount of burst coming from manyshot + sniper shot + adrenaline, if you time it correctly. If you are willing to splash (though it seems you would prefer not to), then 10k stars will add tremendously to your versatility in DS.

Arties/rogue-repeater builds offer pretty credible ranged damage throughout the heroic levels, and are pretty handy for sustained damage. My personal feeling is that they vastly outperform AA. Where I find they start to lose ground relative to crit-heavy builds is in ehard/eelites, where the burst crit damage gets things down NOW. It's for this reason that, like Festus, I'm starting to look into deepwood sniper instead of AA. Deepwood accentuates your ability to snipe things into the ground on a moment's notice. AA is more geared towards sustained damage, if heavily weighted towards vorpal, putting it between Artie/rogue repeater and adrenaline-longbow if you map the build types on a sustained damage to burst damage continuum. If that makes sense? I do agree that the infinite arrows are a really, really rough thing to have to give up.

I find that my current AA playstyle consists of pretty weak plinking until I get off a credible pin/otto's. At that point, enter 10k stars mode, pop an adrenaline, and knock the entire line down by 3600-4k damage. Deepwood sniper would likely increase this amount to at least 6-7k, which is on par with trash hp in epic elite gianthold right now. One consideration is that deepwood does require crit confirmation, and I find that I'm missing out on an uncomfortable amount of crit confirms on epic elite now. If you can dependably nuke a line down in a second, sustained damage isn't such a big deal. This, imo, is the advantage of crit-heavy over SA-heavy ranged builds. You will probably need to melee from time to time, though, to make sure your adrenaline is charged as much as possible. If this isn't to your taste, then yes, an SA-heavy build may be more up your alley.

As a note: I'm not superbly geared, my str isn't through the roof, and I haven't yet touched yugo pots. I'm certain others can do much better.

Edit: Regarding the bluff component. Does it spin your target around? If so, you can use it as a clutch to interrupt mob spellcasting.

Madae
02-23-2013, 04:23 PM
you require yourself to stay pure

I don't require myself to stay pure, I just don't see the benefit of dipping in rogue for sneak attack for DWS, to completely utilize the benefits of Sniper Shot, over just being a pure rogue for the higher sneak attack bonus and, I agree, higher sustained damage, especially when the Rogue capstone benefits Rogues a lot, and even Ranger capstone, though I can see where that one would be passed up.

I don't know about raids and burst and all that, I'm merely looking at this from a perspective of "how useful is DWS to a Ranger who just wants to play", with zero thought to raid capability, and the answer to me is "choose something else".


Edit: Regarding the bluff component. Does it spin your target around? If so, you can use it as a clutch to interrupt mob spellcasting.

It works exactly like regular bluff, with damage before the bluff takes affect, so yes, it turns them around. I often use it to keep things from healing themselves and maybe putting it down in the process.

Also, if Sniper Shot is useful by stacking a bunch of gear and level 20 abilities for some obscene damage, ok I will concede that. But that doesn't help level 6-19 rangers. I find it very, very odd that this game would create a prestige available to level 6 and make it so downright terrible until you get all the gear, TR's and destinies you need to be viable... well, I suppose I don't find it weird, it just doesn't make any sense. If that's the case, then just make DWS a level 20 prestige so you're not fooling anyone into picking it up at 6. I would accept that if that's the way it must be. However, I'm one of those weird people that thinks that is just a ridiculous notion. It should be fun and useful all the time, not just 10%, 20%, 30% or 50% of the time.

Loriac
02-23-2013, 05:36 PM
Arties/rogue-repeater builds offer pretty credible ranged damage throughout the heroic levels, and are pretty handy for sustained damage. My personal feeling is that they vastly outperform AA. Where I find they start to lose ground relative to crit-heavy builds is in ehard/eelites, where the burst crit damage gets things down NOW. It's for this reason that, like Festus, I'm starting to look into deepwood sniper instead of AA. Deepwood accentuates your ability to snipe things into the ground on a moment's notice. AA is more geared towards sustained damage, if heavily weighted towards vorpal, putting it between Artie/rogue repeater and adrenaline-longbow if you map the build types on a sustained damage to burst damage continuum. If that makes sense? I do agree that the infinite arrows are a really, really rough thing to have to give up.


I've run a ranged / caster arti to cap twice now on my main, and the only reason arti damage stays competitive is the runearm (on that set up). The repeater damage peters out; its nice, consistent, but relatively low dps. I suspect that the mechanic has it even worse tbh, but I can't speak from recent personal experience on how rogues play.

I too was finding a plateau at the EH level on my arti. Up to EH, everything was easily solo'able, but not because of the repeater damage as such - it was the repeater giving you baseline damage, spells giving you cc (tac det), and the runearm giving you burst damage.

This was the reason I was looking at deepwood sniper on a multiclassed melee build that used manyshot for burst damage. I think its actually quite a good PRE on paper, and it seems that Festus's experience bears that piece of theorycraft out. The only improvement I'd like to see to the PRE is the requirement for weapons focus: ranged be dropped. Essentially, that would make it feat-free for a level 6 ranger, and would help out a lot on builds splashing ranger 6.

Loriac
02-23-2013, 05:43 PM
some time ago i made for fun a 7monk/6 deepwood/ 7rogue acrobat who used bow and staff. not an end all be all build, but effective and fun and basically using the same premise of your build. I suggest you go for it and give yours a try i have no doubt you would enjoy it as much as I did mine.

I've no doubt it would be. In all honesty, I'd expect a HOrc f12/rgr6/rog2 to be an absolute powerhouse of a build. It would have enough feats to get the OC line, the THF line, Kensai II feats, IPS, tactical combat feats, and possibly even GTWF. On top of that you'd have full UMD, and full trapskills. The only downside that I could see was the lack of healing capability beyond scrolls. If ranger 6 gave access to empower healing then it would be enough, but unfortunately you don't get that til ranger 8. Kensai II (greataxes) / Deepwood sniper is probably about as optimised as you can get for a build that uses melee most of the time and switches to manyshot for burst damage.

Todkaninchen
02-23-2013, 07:51 PM
Frankly imo mechanic is as gimp for rogue as DS for ranger. YOu cant ever expect me to think a pure rogue mech will do the job better then my rogue fighter with just a splash of arty for all xbow prof and unlimited bolts. BTW unlimited ammo is a huge factor in any ranged build, lacking either AA or arty means carrying either scrolls or a wand of flame arrow or the like.

Then you are not building rogue mechanics well.

My second--gimpy--rogue mechanic was running Epic Madstone with a level 25 Ranger AA the other night and running + or - 2 kills the entire time. He doesn't have greensteel, what he generally used was a basic Silver Slinger for skeletons and a basic Doublecross Bow. (Other gear includes a set of Black Dragonhide and a Golden Guile).

Basically--even without Improved Precise Shot--INT to damage makes up for the same amount of STR, but laying in the nightshade venom and landing both 14d6 + 12 sneak attack and 150% damage on both sneak attack and standard damage when the nightshade venom hits does massive damage.

I typically carry 3 House D large quivers stacked with 1000 Sturdy bolts, 1000 regular bolts, and 1000 +1 bolts and I've yet to get into those regular bolts in practice (pulling the sturdies from the other quivers during lulls). In other words, I'm using 3 slots and have never broken into my 6K spares.

The other thing you are simply not considering when comparing a rogue mechanic to a melee or even an assassin-based repeater rogue is the added mobility. 8 times out of 10, if I die, it's from being held or commanded and ganged up on. (Undergeared a bit on him). Most of the time, if I can pick my targets--casters die first--I can use mobility and survive. On my other rogue mechanic (second life, currently 16 rogue/2 arti) with better gear, I usually score about as high as higher level characters, including epics, when I go do something like scale runs or shroud.

My bow selection is larger and I do have rune arm imbues since I leveled to 18, so I flip mainly between the Doublecross (for casters) and a Radiance II bow (for non-casters) mostly to disrupt or blind the enemy for survivability and to lock in about 10d6 or so of sneak attack damage.

Again, Black Dragonhide and a Golden Guile.

Neither are gimped, both can toss Raise Deads and Heal Scrolls as necessary (admittedly, the arti multi better), even though the pure rogue is the last of my 28-pt builds.

Not a gimp if you 1) build it wall and 2) play it well.

Charononus
02-24-2013, 03:40 AM
I don't require myself to stay pure, I just don't see the benefit of dipping in rogue for sneak attack for DWS, to completely utilize the benefits of Sniper Shot, over just being a pure rogue for the higher sneak attack bonus and, I agree, higher sustained damage, especially when the Rogue capstone benefits Rogues a lot, and even Ranger capstone, though I can see where that one would be passed up.

I don't know about raids and burst and all that, I'm merely looking at this from a perspective of "how useful is DWS to a Ranger who just wants to play", with zero thought to raid capability, and the answer to me is "choose something else".



It works exactly like regular bluff, with damage before the bluff takes affect, so yes, it turns them around. I often use it to keep things from healing themselves and maybe putting it down in the process.

Also, if Sniper Shot is useful by stacking a bunch of gear and level 20 abilities for some obscene damage, ok I will concede that. But that doesn't help level 6-19 rangers. I find it very, very odd that this game would create a prestige available to level 6 and make it so downright terrible until you get all the gear, TR's and destinies you need to be viable... well, I suppose I don't find it weird, it just doesn't make any sense. If that's the case, then just make DWS a level 20 prestige so you're not fooling anyone into picking it up at 6. I would accept that if that's the way it must be. However, I'm one of those weird people that thinks that is just a ridiculous notion. It should be fun and useful all the time, not just 10%, 20%, 30% or 50% of the time.

fyi the ranger capstone is broken and not worth taking on any toon.

xberto
04-03-2013, 12:42 AM
I've been using 6/6/6 arti/rogue/ranger with the last 2 in whichever past life I want upon TRing.


This worked well for me too. Got my 3 ranger PL this way, weilding an xbow then went pure arti....
my thoughts about AA vs DWS....

The greatest thing about AA is that as a racial enhancment it synergises so well with so many ranged build. For the sake of discussion, what happens with a pure Ranger build weilding Pinion? How does the 500 damage that an AA gets on a 20 stack against the Sniper shot every 10 seconds (+2 to critical threat range, and +2 to critical threat multiplier)?.
For a pure Ranger, the better the base damage of the bow, the closer the DWS comes to beating out AA. What is that breakpoint?

Clapton
04-03-2013, 03:29 AM
fyi the ranger capstone is broken and not worth taking on any toon.

Perhaps this ^ is what Madae is getting at?

Perhaps he's asking that the Devs (if they're NOT going to sort out Deepwood Sniper) simply remove the Prestige entirely and add it's bonuses to the Ranger Capstone?

We don't really have any idea as yet what the Devs are planning for Rangers with the Enhancement Pass. Hopefully we'll get a proper Deepwood Sniper tree but Madae's suggestion may be closer to the truth of the matter considering the inattention the Devs have shown towards this prestige in the past.

Imatotalnoob
04-03-2013, 04:07 AM
Some excellent advice here and i would like to add my 2 cents worth.

My main is a ranger and i love rangers, stupidly so.
But its a game and you have to enjoy it.

Now i'm currently returning to my 3rd ranger life after a spell as an arty.
I took one arty level so i could get traps and use the arty enhancement to qual for AA.
At both 7th and 9th i picked up vendor trash xbows and compared my nice AA bow against it.

Taking down the training dummy was 2 min 10 sec with a manyshot and the start and one again in the last 10 sec.
The repeater was 1min 50 sec with no special feats for xbow's apart from level 1 arty.

I love the bow as their is no "i pop out from behind a corner and attack with a reload" lol.
and sometimes one of the bolts in the group of three will not land on target (hitting terrain, whether there or not, thanks update ?)

I find a ranger rogue split of 13/7 to be very strong toon, of which you can still AA it with elf.
I'm only racing through this life 9th(10th banked) atm to go Sorc HELF with a arty dilly.
+6 ranged damage with each bolt and fireball to back it up. :)

This sets me up for a nice AA build the life after, which will hopefully be after the enhancement pass.

Cheers

baccaruda
01-26-2014, 08:48 PM
Taking down the training dummy was 2 min 10 sec with a manyshot and the start and one again in the last 10 sec.
The repeater was 1min 50 sec with no special feats for xbow's apart from level 1 arty.


Thought I might weigh in. Lvl 25 DwS (15 Ranger, 5 Rogue). The time it takes to take down the training dummy is now immeasurable. It takes 1 shot. Then I get out of the way and let the bruisers pound on the thing for 45 seconds.

My biggest problem now is keeping the aggression off me, so I'm going to reincarnate with better diplomacy (I get substantial sneak attack bonuses as well). Adrenaline multishot first strike on a boss is good for 4 x 2,000 plus extras, then bluffs him for the rest of my party members if he's still standing. I've killed dragons with 3 pulls.

My character is DEX based, btw with a +17 modifier. I'm a hybrid tempest/DwS so I use rapiers and longbows, using DEX to both hit and damage.