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stefferweffer
02-20-2013, 08:03 AM
Now that I have Veteran 7, my characters will almost always be starting with a BAB that exceeds the -4 "to hit" penalty.

If we just play "Normal" content, to what extent is that penalty really noticeable, particularly if you have a high STR for melee or high Dex for ranged? Is it a really noticeable penalty at higher levels?

Thanks for the advice.

FrozenNova
02-20-2013, 08:05 AM
It's going to be very rare that taking the penalty is a better option than using something you're proficient with.

Deathdefy
02-20-2013, 08:09 AM
In some recent-ish update, I think maybe with the expansion launch, the non-proficiency penalty was changed from -4 to-hit to -25% chance to hit.

It matters a lot now at all levels.

dredre9987
02-20-2013, 08:09 AM
due to changes with AC and to hit calculations it is now a 25% penalty not -4

kittikatgurl
02-20-2013, 08:10 AM
Given your title was "is weapon proficiency ever a non-issue", i can say that it is almost always a non-issue for me because i play primarily healers who don't hit things. So, I use tower shields without proficiency and occasionally a random dwarven axe or long sword that just happens to have a good caster mutation on it. Of course, I don't think this is very relevant to you.

I didn't know they had changed it to -25% to hit, that really sucks, but yeah, a one in four miss chance would suck at any level and never be worth it.

psykopeta
02-20-2013, 08:38 AM
it will be an issue depending the difference between the damage of the non-proficient weapon and the best weapon you have/are proficient

maybe that 25%hit loss ends in losing more dps, let's say using a +1 khopesh or a blank longsword

stefferweffer
02-20-2013, 09:06 AM
I did not know that it was -25% until now. Yes, that is a big deal. I'm not thinking that the game is showing this anywhere, unless I missed it. I'm pretty sure it just said -4 on my character sheet.

Thanks for letting me know.

Ivan_Milic
02-20-2013, 09:32 AM
I didnt know about -25% either.

Gkar
02-20-2013, 09:37 AM
I didnt know about -25% either.

Join the club. Huh...didn't know that at all.

Missing_Minds
02-20-2013, 09:40 AM
depends on the weapon.

2 handers, and certain special 1 handers (BS and DA) you won't get splash damage, I think.

non proficient with repeating xbows means you shoot like a standard xbow.

Postumus
02-20-2013, 09:48 AM
due to changes with AC and to hit calculations it is now a 25% penalty not -4

That's right. I forgot all about that. But has anyone tested this lately? Is it really translating across that way or is it softened by the overall 'to hit' formula?


It doesn't seem to affect my to hit at low/mid levels much. Just anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure I would notice it more if it was a -25% off of my 'to hit'.

nibel
02-20-2013, 10:26 AM
It is -20%, not 25.

Easy way to test is find two weapons with the same enhancement value that you possess no feat/enhancement that boost to-hit (eg, a mundane club and a mundane kama on a non-slash specced character). Search a specific mob that you don't miss only in a 1 (usually, named rares are better for that), and write down the number where you start missing with the club. Switch to the kama, and test again. It should be 4 numbers higher.

The to-hit formula now is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2 if you are proficient. For players, this number is rounded to the nearest 0.05 number (so we can use a d20 roll). For monsters, it isn't. There are hard caps at 0.05 and 0.95.

Using this formula is easy to define that if you have any means to LOWER the mob AC, it is twice as effective than the same number as a bonus to hit.

stefferweffer
02-20-2013, 10:30 AM
DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused :)

Ivan_Milic
02-20-2013, 10:46 AM
In game it shows as -4 to hit.

eonfreon
02-20-2013, 11:09 AM
DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused :)

When we were first told the new formula, back in MoTU Beta, they initially gave it as a +25% for proficiency.

Then when it went Live and Ranged was broken because the proficiency bonus was missing the Devs mentioned that the +25% that we thought we were supposed to get had been changed to +20%, but they had simply forgotten to tell us until that time.

The current formula is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2)+.2 for proficiency, just like Nibel said. As least as far as the last time the Devs confirmed it.

There are a few places where the documentation hasn't been updated.

AbyssalMage
02-20-2013, 11:17 AM
Combat is no longer D20 based. This is why you don't see the 25% hit chance. If you look for some of the MotU AC posts, occasionally you will see someone post the new formula. From memory the 25% proficiency bonus is added at the end of the new equation.

The two groups who see the most benefit from the new equation are casters (they can hit things now on rolls other than 20) and casual upper end players (who don't need to grind the +hit gear).

So the bonus looks something like this (For reference only. Actual formula is unknown from the last posts I read which were posts leading to the launch of MotU after the NDA was lifted).

Proficient = (D20 + bonuses) + 25%
Non-Proficient = (D20 + Bonuses) - 4

Kinerd
02-20-2013, 12:53 PM
DDO Wiki says -25%. If that is not right then it also needs to be corrected. Since I am at work now I don't know what the game actually says when playing, but I'm pretty sure it does not show a miss %, which is frustrating.

At least I'm not the only one who was/is confused :)The trouble is we got two statements from devs at the time, 20% and 25%. To me 20% makes more sense because 4 * 5% = 20%, but who knows.

Grimknot
02-20-2013, 02:58 PM
In a related tangent my understanding is that non weapon proficiency does not matter on the offhand because of the changes to how dual wielding works.

I'm not basing this off personal knowledge, but off something I was told ingame by another player, and am seeking confirmation.

As it was explained to me a few updates back melee dual wielding was causing combat lag so they changed the offhand from a to hit roll to a % chance to proc/hit. As such your to hit and thus weapon proficiency became mute on the offhand.

Is this accurate? If so I'd like to wield a feated proficiency Khopesh in the mainhand and a non proficient scimitar in the offhand for a higher critical threat range for procs such as radiance.

mytoriha
02-20-2013, 04:25 PM
If you are not profficent with a weapon, (say a Bastard Sword) you suffer -4 to hit. If you duel wield you suffer a % to produce an off hand attack. But even with duel wield you still suffer a "TO Hit" penality on your second weapon.

Two Weapon Fighting Feat: Req: Dex 15, Reduces the Penality for fighting with two weapons, and increases the chance to produce off hand attacks WHEN fighting with two weapons by 20% to 40%.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat: BaB +6, Two Weapon Fighting Feat, Dex 17: adds an additional 20% to make off hand attacks 60% likely to land a "To Hit" roll.

But one should always stick with a profficent weapon, unless you have a magical way to overcome the penality. If you should come across that perfect weapon then save it, and learn a new feat for it. Otherwise, you can always make a class that can use it.

I hope this helped, I only looked at my own feats to add this info. This does not come from hearsay, or another player.

eonfreon
02-20-2013, 05:14 PM
In a related tangent my understanding is that non weapon proficiency does not matter on the offhand because of the changes to how dual wielding works.

I'm not basing this off personal knowledge, but off something I was told ingame by another player, and am seeking confirmation.

As it was explained to me a few updates back melee dual wielding was causing combat lag so they changed the offhand from a to hit roll to a % chance to proc/hit. As such your to hit and thus weapon proficiency became mute on the offhand.

Is this accurate? If so I'd like to wield a feated proficiency Khopesh in the mainhand and a non proficient scimitar in the offhand for a higher critical threat range for procs such as radiance.

No, that's not accurate. If your mainhand hits the offhand does not automatically hit even if it procs. What they did was get rid of the second check for the collision system. Before the change the computer would check to see if your attack was within range of the collision system's hitbox on both of your attacks seperately, causing more calculations.

With the change, there is only one collision check and if it determines that the target is indeed within range and thus "hittable" then a roll is made to see if you hit. Whether your first attack makes it's to hit roll or not, if you are dual-wielding, then the offhand "piggybacks" off the first collision check (thus it doesn't require a separate collision check) and has a chance to proc, which depends on your TWF Feats and if you're a Tempest PRE. If it then procs, it has a to hit roll done as well. If you're not proficient with it then you will not gain the +20% or +25% (whichever is accurate).

It works like this:

Check hitbox of opponent, if hitbox out of range than no chances to hit, check again when person swings again
If hitbox in range, then roll to-hit for mainhand
If person dual-wields, check to see if offhand procs
If offhand procs, then roll to-hit for offhand
Repeat until person stops swinging weapon at targettable opponents

Grimknot
02-20-2013, 06:08 PM
So the next question is the -4 to hit (or the lack of a +20/25%) applied only to the offhand which is nonproficient? Or does it apply to the primary hand attack as well which is proficient?

EllisDee37
02-20-2013, 10:55 PM
The formula has been posted, but the big picture result merits being spelled out:

In today's game, your to-hit bonus largely doesn't matter BECAUSE proficiency alone lets you hit enough to function. So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.

The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.

Try to always be proficient.

EDIT: Technically, if you have a very high to-hit then you can still get to 95% without proficiency against very low ac mobs.

sirgog
02-20-2013, 10:59 PM
The formula has been posted, but the big picture result merits being spelled out:

In today's game, your to-hit bonus largely doesn't matter BECAUSE proficiency alone lets you hit enough to function. So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.

The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.

Try to always be proficient.

EDIT: Technically, if you have a very high to-hit then you can still get to 95% without proficiency against very low ac mobs.

Player to-hit is nowhere near as high as you indicate. Players grazing hit a moderate amount at high level with proficient weapons, it's just not so obvious because grazes do noticeable damage now and you get them confused with glancing blows.

EllisDee37
02-21-2013, 12:24 AM
Player to-hit is nowhere near as high as you indicate. Players grazing hit a moderate amount at high level with proficient weapons, it's just not so obvious because grazes do noticeable damage now and you get them confused with glancing blows.I didn't indicate player to-hit as high or low.

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 01:08 AM
Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.

I also tend to think that to hit possibly matters more now than it did before. I can't remember how many threads i read when i started playing that said that proficiency, oversized two weapon fighting, off hand penalties, movement penalties, power attack, none of these things mattered because everybody was pretty much always hitting things on a 2. It just matters differently, like ac. Rather than being crucial within a narrow band, it now has some effect always.

Postumus
02-21-2013, 01:45 AM
The end result is that proficiency is now king, the most important part of your to-hit formula. For example, Attack Bonus +4 goggles may only give you an extra 5% chance to hit, or maybe not even that. But losing proficiency will guaranteed drop your to-hit by 20%, no matter what it is currently.




Proficiency is not always 'king.' As you noted players can get their 'to hit' bonuses high enough to make the proficiency bonus irrelevant. In fact it is very easy to do so at low levels where one would think proficiency should matter more. This, plus the rounding to the mechanic which rounds the percentages to the nearest 5%, make weapon proficiency less important at low levels and nearly insignificant at the lowest levels.


For example:


A second level fighter with +2 'to hit' vs a monster with AC 10 has a 80% chance (83% rounded down) to hit the monster using a weapon he is proficient with vs. a 60% chance (63% rounded down) using a non-proficient weapon. Here the fighter is going to hit almost 30% more often using weapons with which he has proficiency.


But it is very easy for a player to get his second level fighter to +12 'to hit' (+2 bab, +2 weapon, +4 str, +2 bull's str, +2 flask of heroism clicky). This means against the same AC 10 monster, the fighter has the EXACT SAME chance, 95%, to hit the monster using ANY weapon whether he proficient with it or not. This is because his chance to hit is capped at 95%, and with a +12 vs AC 10 his 'to hit' chances for proficient and non-proficient weapons is over 95%.


It appears the tipping point where the proficiency actually becomes meaningful (greater than a +5% difference) is around AC 15 for a second level fighter (or anyone with a total 'to hit' of +17 or less). However, if one uses sunder frequently, the chance to hit using proficient or non-proficient weapons stays equal until about AC 20 where the difference is still a piddly 5% (95% to hit with proficient weapon vs 90% with non-proficient).

Postumus
02-21-2013, 02:43 AM
The to-hit formula now is (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2 if you are proficient. For players, this number is rounded to the nearest 0.05 number (so we can use a d20 roll). For monsters, it isn't. There are hard caps at 0.05 and 0.95.

Using this formula is easy to define that if you have any means to LOWER the mob AC, it is twice as effective than the same number as a bonus to hit.


This is not true. Because of the rounding to the nearest 5%, the higher the opponent's AC, the less the difference between lowering AC by 4 or raising to hit by 4 seems to matter. Sometimes it is actually worse to lower the AC -4 than boosting the to hit bonus +4. How is that for counter intuitive?


For example:


A player with a +19 to hit going up against a monster with AC 50 actually has a better chance of hitting the monster if his 'to hit' is boosted by +4 than if the monster's AC is lowered by -4. A +19 'to hit' bonus vs AC 50 results in a 50% chance to hit. If the AC is lowered by four to AC 46 through sunder, the player still has only a 50% chance (52% rounded down) to hit. However, if the 'to hit' bonus is raised by four to +23, the player now has a 55% chance (54% rounded up) to hit AC 50.


A +30 'to hit' vs AC 50 has a 60% chance to hit. Whether the AC gets lowered by -4, or the 'to hit' is raised by +4, the new chance to hit AC 50 is exactly the same, 65%, after rounding. Actually right around AC 50 seems to be the point where sunder basically only gives players a +5% chance to hit overall which is usually the same increase granted by adding another +4 'to hit.'


When an opponent has AC 75 sunder doesn't seem to offer any benefit whatsoever and neither does greater sunder. At +60 'to hit' vs AC 75, one must reduce the AC by at least -8 to achieve a 5% increase in overall chance to hit; anything under +60 to hit wouldn't be affected.

EllisDee37
02-21-2013, 06:43 AM
That was my point. Level 2 is irrelevant in that level 2 in general is irrelevant regardless of your build. Nobody builds for level 2.

Those other examples you gave, that's where proficiency is king.

nibel
02-21-2013, 07:56 AM
Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.

Any roll of 3+, if not a hit, will be a grazing hit. Check your combat log, don't trust the numbers floating.

Ryiah
02-21-2013, 11:53 AM
I didn't indicate player to-hit as high or low.


I think he's referring to this line. I do know with my Wizard sitting at a mid-30s STR score that I still get grazes versus real hits unless I buff up for melee.



So even a str-dumped wizard can hit epic-elite Malicia with reasonable consistency.

Postumus
02-21-2013, 01:25 PM
That was my point. Level 2 is irrelevant in that level 2 in general is irrelevant regardless of your build. Nobody builds for level 2.

you don't build for level 2???!!! LOL. :)

I gave you one, quick example. I can give dozens of examples at every level that contradict your statement.


Here is my point:


1- I was answering the OP's question "is weapon proficiency ever a non-issue?" I showed one scenario (of many possible scenarios) where the answer is 'YES, at lower levels, with high enough 'to hit' weapon proficiency will not significantly increase your chance of hitting your opponents. Mob AC and player 'to hit' bonuses factor in much more than proficiency does at nearly every level.


2- Your statement is factually incorrect and gives the wrong impression to people.

It would be correct to say it is generally better to use a weapon with which one is proficient, but there are MANY examples and scenarios where it either doesn't matter, or the benefit of using a non-proficient weapon outweighs the minor increase from using a proficient weapon.







Those other examples you gave, that's where proficiency is king.


In those examples sunder is actually king. There is no 'king' that works consistently well across every level for every class against every AC. Some things work best at low level, some at mid-level against low AC, some at mid-level against high AC, and some at cap.

EDIT--- actually strength might be 'king' the more I think about it. It's at least jack.

Raithe
02-21-2013, 02:25 PM
I can give dozens of examples at every level that contradict your statement.


Nobody switches to a non-proficient weapon against low-AC mobs, it wouldn't make much gameplay sense at all:

1) Low-AC mobs are generally only trash, and susceptible to crowd control attacks and fort save effects. Because of this, they are likely instakilled, tripped, stunned, or one-shot. They won't last long enough for it to be worth switching to a slightly higher DPS weapon with which you don't have proficiency.

2) At around AC 35+ (the vast majority of mobs at level 25), you start needing a +60 attack bonus to not take a proficiency penalty. Entirely doable, but really not worth messing with for characters that have the capability to get that high. Do you want to fail a trip or stun because you missed on your attack roll?

We don't know exactly what AC each mob type has, at least not without a LOT of data collecting. As a statement of general practice EllisDee is correct. If you continue to use a non-proficient weapon, you will be guarantee'd to run into mobs against whom you only hit 3/4s of the time you roll.

My kensei does not have Khopesh proficiency but uses an Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water for the Improved Paralyzing occasionally. He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap. It also made me put an Allegiance in his offhand when using that weapon.

Ape_Man
02-21-2013, 02:43 PM
my +60 to-hit melee was missing on 6s in an explorer area when swinging a non-proficient weapon.

take the proficiency feat.

Eladrin
02-21-2013, 03:59 PM
Grazing also requires proficiency.

bruener
02-21-2013, 04:18 PM
Yes there are plenty of times it doesn't matter.

Public areas
Looting chests
Running between mobs

Otherwise foolish to try and melee without being proficient.

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 04:20 PM
I have 2 practical examples of wielding non proficient weapons.

1 I recently tr'd into a wizard and used the spell masters touch to wield carniflex. As i'm addled i frequently would forget to cast masters touch before i started swinging after a rest/zone in. It took about 2 seconds to realize it by the massive amounts of misses that were popping up.

2. A while back, but since U14, i found a dynastic falcata in the desert with my spellsinger bard. At that time, strength 16, charisma 32. Not khopesh proficient, i equipped it just to see, and it was terrible despite gaining an extra +8 to hit and damage from it. Not subtle at all, immediately apparent difference.

P.S. Did try testing on the dummy, and was still hitting on 2's. So maybe the dummy doesn't even get the standard 10 to ac, or it is theoretically possible to overcome the nonproficiency penalty with enough to hit advantage.

Hafeal
02-21-2013, 04:45 PM
Op -

I have found the proficiency to be a non-factor. In my static group, even our wizard regularly dual wields (no feat, with non-proficient weapons) and has had little problem hitting (on elite). "To hit" right now seems to be a non-factor most of the time except for certain bosses and displaced enemies.

In fact, we were arguing in group fairly recently about how often he could hit or miss and he demonstrated in the quest "In the Flesh' his consistent ability to dual wield non-proficient weapons.

So, for normal runs [per your OP], I would not worry a bit.

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 05:23 PM
Op -

I have found the proficiency to be a non-factor. In my static group, even our wizard regularly dual wields (no feat, with non-proficient weapons) and has had little problem hitting (on elite). "To hit" right now seems to be a non-factor most of the time except for certain bosses and displaced enemies.

In fact, we were arguing in group fairly recently about how often he could hit or miss and he demonstrated in the quest "In the Flesh' his consistent ability to dual wield non-proficient weapons.

So, for normal runs [per your OP], I would not worry a bit.

Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?

Hafeal
02-21-2013, 05:25 PM
Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?

He was hitting 90%+ of the time. ;) I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 05:29 PM
He was hitting 90%+ of the time. ;) I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.

He was dual wielding non proficient weapons with no 2 weapon fighting feats and hitting 90% of the time on at level elite? I call shenanigans!

Postumus
02-21-2013, 05:37 PM
Maybe your wizard thinks hitting 50% of the time is good enough?

Doubtful he's even noticing it much since he's probably only hitting around 60% of the time anyway.


A level 15 wizard could easily get +25 in to hit bonuses which means against AC 40 he's got a 65% chance to hit if proficient, and a 45% chance if non-proficient. That's only 20 more misses per hundred swings, would most players on a wizard really even notice?

Against AC 20 critters he's got a 95% chance to hit if proficient, and a 90% chance to hit if non-proficient.


I don't know what the average AC for monsters in In the Flesh heroic normal is, but if it is closer to 20 than 40, the difference might not be very noticeable.

Postumus
02-21-2013, 05:43 PM
He was hitting 90%+ of the time. ;) I dunno, maybe it was a lucky streak. He has been playing that way from 1 to 18 now.


Out of curiosity do you have any idea what your total to hit after all the bonuses were added up was?

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 05:46 PM
A level 15 wizard could easily get +25 in to hit bonuses which means against AC 40 he's got a 65% chance to hit if proficient, and a 45% chance if non-proficient. That's only 20 more misses per hundred swings, would most players on a wizard really even notice?

Against AC 20 critters he's got a 95% chance to hit if proficient, and a 90% chance to hit if non-proficient.


I don't know what the average AC for monsters in In the Flesh heroic normal is, but if it is closer to 20 than 40, the difference might not be very noticeable.

As i mentioned before, i always noticed within seconds, even if i wasn't actually looking for it. Most mobs at level 15 must have an ac considerably higher than 20 then, as even my fully raged barb with a greataxe grazed on 2's at that level.

No idea what the ac on the giants in the new epic gianthold wilderness is, but my ranger was grazing on 5's with a to hit bonus around 40.

Also Eladrin mentioned that you must be proficient to get grazes, so that would make misses even more obvious.

Hafeal
02-21-2013, 05:58 PM
Out of curiosity do you have any idea what your total to hit after all the bonuses were added up was?

I do not (I was not the Wizzie) but I can get them ... it may not be 'til next Tuesday tho. :)

Postumus
02-21-2013, 06:48 PM
I do not (I was not the Wizzie) but I can get them ... it may not be 'til next Tuesday tho. :)

No big deal if you don't know it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the AC might be looking like in those quests.

Postumus
02-21-2013, 07:08 PM
As i mentioned before, i always noticed within seconds, even if i wasn't actually looking for it. Most mobs at level 15 must have an ac considerably higher than 20 then, as even my fully raged barb with a greataxe grazed on 2's at that level.


L 15 barb with 30 str, +5 weapon, greater rage, ship buff, haste, GH, and rage using power attack would have around +36 to hit (15 bab, 10 str, 5 weap, 3 greater rage, 2 ship, 1 haste, 4 gh, 1 rage, -5 PA). Missing on a 2 would indicate the monster had an AC of around 33.




No idea what the ac on the giants in the new epic gianthold wilderness is, but my ranger was grazing on 5's with a to hit bonus around 40.

Also Eladrin mentioned that you must be proficient to get grazes, so that would make misses even more obvious.


If you are missing on a 5 with a to hit of +40, then the giant AC would be around 46.

JonD
02-21-2013, 07:13 PM
Grazing also requires proficiency.

Well, I now have a lot more respect for the cows in Eveningstar.

(sorry...)

FestusHood
02-21-2013, 07:20 PM
Well, I now have a lot more respect for the cows in Eveningstar.

(sorry...)

Ok that's funny. (took me a second)

Ivan_Milic
02-21-2013, 07:41 PM
Was he using masters touch?

EllisDee37
02-21-2013, 07:54 PM
I think he's referring to this line. I do know with my Wizard sitting at a mid-30s STR score that I still get grazes versus real hits unless I buff up for melee.Oh, gotcha.

My point with that line about how str-dumped wizards can hit EE Malicia with reasonable frequency was that when you ONLY hit via proficiency -- whether it's 20% or 25% of the time -- that's a reasonable amount. In the old days you'd get a "Miss" message on anything but a 20. Now you hit with grazes on most every roll and get actual full hits on 16-20, even if your to-hit is like 3.


He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap.Yep, that's exactly how it works. The other side of that coin is that with proficiency, 25% is the hard floor regardless of how low your to-hit is. (Or 80%/20% respectively.)

Postumus
02-21-2013, 08:10 PM
Yep, that's exactly how it works. The other side of that coin is that with proficiency, 25% is the hard floor regardless of how low your to-hit is. (Or 80%/20% respectively.)



Actually with the rounding the hard floor appears to 30%. As per the to hit formula a player with a total 'to hit' of only +1 vs an AC100 critter would still have a 30% chance to hit (26% rounded up).


As far as I know the 'ceiling' for the non-proficient chance to hit is exactly the same as for using a proficient weapon, 95%, as nothing is subtracted from the to hit formula. Here is the formula: (To-hit + 10.5)/(AC*2), plus 0.2.

Do you have actual data that supports your statement?

EllisDee37
02-21-2013, 08:36 PM
Do you have actual data that supports your statement?*sigh*

Again, ignoring low-AC mobs as being irrelevant to this discussion, you are correct in that the formula doesn't have a hard cap.

However, the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs, and against those it is unlikely to get to 95% without proficiency.

Postumus
02-21-2013, 08:50 PM
*sigh*

Again, ignoring low-AC mobs as being irrelevant to this discussion, you are correct in that the formula doesn't have a hard cap.

However, the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs, and against those it is unlikely to get to 95% without proficiency.



What are you talking about?


You quoted Raith's text "He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap."


To which you replied "Yep, that's exactly how it works."


It doesn't work that way at all. You keep saying things that are misleading or just plain factually incorrect pertaining to how proficiency works and how it is used in the to hit calculation.

I also have no idea what you are trying to say with the statement: 'the only time to-hit matters is against moderate- and high-ac mobs,' What does that mean for a new player?


You realize do we are in the New Player Advice and Guidance thread right? I think it's important that new players get correct information. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to correct you, quite frankly.

HungarianRhapsody
02-21-2013, 09:15 PM
Grazing also requires proficiency.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Grass.

Cows get this EWP for free.

Hafeal
02-21-2013, 10:06 PM
No big deal if you don't know it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the AC might be looking like in those quests.

We were in on Hard when he was showing us (In the Flesh) that is. He was an 18 Wiz at a 16th level quest. The Renders' AC might be the highest (Mindfalyers, Hounds, Pixel and Taken for the most part otherwise).


Was he using masters touch?

No. I could not believe it until he showed our group. He was 2 wielding, over-sized weapons I want to say, but I just don't remember. Honestly, he made the whole 'to hit' worry seem trivial for *trash* mobs. I can't speak for Epics on this point.

EllisDee37
02-22-2013, 12:30 AM
To which you replied "Yep, that's exactly how it works."That was a mistake. It does convey properly the relevance of proficiency for new players, though.

Enjoy that picked nit.

EDIT: The "exactly how it works" part was specifically referring to his "20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula." You say it doesn't work that way at all, which is misleading for new players. It is indeed applied at the end of the formula, and that's why his results felt that way.

Gremmlynn
02-22-2013, 04:38 AM
My kensei does not have Khopesh proficiency but uses an Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water for the Improved Paralyzing occasionally. He missed so often with it that I would not be surprised if the 20% proficiency penalty is actually subtracted at the end of the formula calculation so that 75% is a hard cap. That's how I would have done it. But then I'm pretty old school when it comes to game design theory.

Kinerd
02-22-2013, 05:11 PM
Soon as i can log in i'll grab a khopesh and go try to hit the ship dummy. Should be easy to tell how much proficiency affects to hit that way. My own experience playing around with a khopesh i wasn't proficient with was that the increase in my misses was quite noticeable. Also a very noticeable reduction in grazing hits, since 20% of those will just be misses.

I also tend to think that to hit possibly matters more now than it did before. I can't remember how many threads i read when i started playing that said that proficiency, oversized two weapon fighting, off hand penalties, movement penalties, power attack, none of these things mattered because everybody was pretty much always hitting things on a 2. It just matters differently, like ac. Rather than being crucial within a narrow band, it now has some effect always.It's the reverse because of rounding. You can take OTWF (or whatever) and experience literally no change in your to-hit rate even when it's below 95%.