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FrozenNova
02-19-2013, 07:01 AM
I join a pug on my lowbie level 7 rogue.
I am asked if I can "search well", which I take to mean, do I have trap skills?
I respond that I have my skills maxed, competence gear maxed, fox pots, hero pots, Mech I boost, several enhancements, skill boost 2, 14 base int, and +5 tools.

We walk into Temple of Vol elite.
I can neither spot nor search anything, of course.
What am I missing?

wgperi
02-19-2013, 07:09 AM
Church and the cult is a level 9 quest, on elite it goes up to 11. It is tough for lowbies to catch up with the scaling, although it becomes less intense on high levels, on low levels it hurts a lot. Try that again once youre 8~10 and you'll do fine.

edit: Additionally you can try the wiki, overwhelming info about it. here's a link http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks/9#The_Church_and_the_Cult

FrozenNova
02-19-2013, 07:20 AM
on elite it goes up to 11.

This doesn't really mean anything in terms of quest content.
It's true that the quest is considered two levels higher for experience calculation and chests are given a two level bump.
But trap difficulty and monster CR of a level 9 elite quest bears no relation to a level 11 normal quest.

sebastianosmith
02-19-2013, 07:20 AM
I guildy of mine, 9th level arti, is experiencing the same phenomenon. I have read half a dozen threads voicing the same observation over the last few weeks. Each time the majority of replies have asserted nothing in the game has changed. I've no reason to doubt these claims.

However, my guildy is repeatedly failing spot and search DCs I know she should be able to easily make in elite content given her gear, stats and skills. It's not simply a matter of having the wrong gear equipped either. We have all taken to vocally reminding her to do a gear check when we know there are traps ahead. Our group's druid is spotting more than the arti which is just plain wrong. Something is amiss, but I have no idea what.

wgperi
02-19-2013, 07:37 AM
This doesn't really mean anything in terms of quest content.
It's true that the quest is considered two levels higher for experience calculation and chests are given a two level bump.
But trap difficulty and monster CR of a level 9 elite quest bears no relation to a level 11 normal quest.

No indeed, lvl9 elite quests have much tougher enemies than lvl11 normal quests, and higher DCs for traps as well. I believe you could easily spot and find lvl11 N traps. Just check the link I posted for further information how DCs scale.

Ryiah
02-19-2013, 07:39 AM
What am I missing?

You are level 7. The quest is level 11 and thus you can be up to level 11 and still have a bravery bonus. Thus most players would be running it at level 11. The difference between level 7 and level 11 is four skill points. You are missing 4 in Spot, 4 in Search, and 4 in Disable Device.

Dandonk
02-19-2013, 07:44 AM
You are level 7. The quest is level 11 and thus you can be up to level 11 and still have a bravery bonus. Thus most players would be running it at level 11. The difference between level 7 and level 11 is four skill points. You are missing 4 in Spot, 4 in Search, and 4 in Disable Device.

And likely 4 from better gear, 1 from better int item, and maybe more enhancements/better buffs.

Mastikator
02-19-2013, 07:45 AM
You are level 7. The quest is level 11 and thus you can be up to level 11 and still have a bravery bonus. Thus most players would be running it at level 11. The difference between level 7 and level 11 is four skill points. You are missing 4 in Spot, 4 in Search, and 4 in Disable Device.
That is assuming an level 11 would be running around with level 7 gear and buffs. The actual difference would rather be around 12-16 points.

Wipey
02-19-2013, 07:50 AM
The difference between level 7 and level 11 is four skill points. You are missing 4 in Spot, 4 in Search, and 4 in Disable Device.
+GH, better gear ( +13 item, +6 int item ), good luck, maybe even + int skills greensteel. That might be 9 - 16 (?) skill difference. There is no conspiracy, your skills are just too low for lvl 11 on elite quest !

Ryiah
02-19-2013, 08:01 AM
+GH, better gear ( +13 item, +6 int item ), good luck, maybe even + int skills greensteel. That might be 9 - 16 (?) skill difference.

Actually he should have access to Good Luck now as the Voice of the Master is minimum level 5. If we're counting practically every self-usable buff then we should probably also count a +2 INT ship buff as he doesn't seem to have mentioned having it.

Impaqt
02-19-2013, 08:42 AM
I guildy of mine, 9th level arti, is experiencing the same phenomenon. I have read half a dozen threads voicing the same observation over the last few weeks. Each time the majority of replies have asserted nothing in the game has changed. I've no reason to doubt these claims.

However, my guildy is repeatedly failing spot and search DCs I know she should be able to easily make in elite content given her gear, stats and skills. It's not simply a matter of having the wrong gear equipped either. We have all taken to vocally reminding her to do a gear check when we know there are traps ahead. Our group's druid is spotting more than the arti which is just plain wrong. Something is amiss, but I have no idea what.

I'm leveling a new rogueish build currently. Currently level 8 and I have noticed no issues at all with search or disable checks. Hes lacking in Spot so I cant speak for that.

I havent seen the posts, but if its like this one, where we dont actually know what the the OP's Search and Spot skills were actually at, its hard to know for sure whats wrong(if anything)

Psiandron
02-19-2013, 08:58 AM
No indeed, lvl9 elite quests have much tougher enemies than lvl11 normal quests, and higher DCs for traps as well. I believe you could easily spot and find lvl11 N traps. Just check the link I posted for further information how DCs scale.

This.

DCs vault upward as you go through the n, h, e range. IIRC the difficulty of elite is on the order of 5 levels above the quest normal.

Dragavon
02-19-2013, 10:36 AM
I'm leveling a new rogueish build currently. Currently level 8 and I have noticed no issues at all with search or disable checks. Hes lacking in Spot so I cant speak for that.

I havent seen the posts, but if its like this one, where we dont actually know what the the OP's Search and Spot skills were actually at, its hard to know for sure whats wrong(if anything)

There is nothing wrong.

A lvl 7 rogue is simply not able to find and disable the traps in Temple of Vol on elite. I do not think anyone can do that at lvl 7.

Daynox
02-19-2013, 10:48 AM
it would not hurt to get your WIS up as that stat helps with the spot skill.

Stormraiser
02-19-2013, 11:03 AM
The difference between level 7 and level 11 is four skill points. You are missing 4 in Spot, 4 in Search, and 4 in Disable Device.

The actual difference between level 7 and level 11 is more then just 4. You can equip a higher + to spot item, you can equip a higher + int item and you have higher available enchantments to work with (skill boost, etc) and higher potential spells which will boost your abilities.

I would estimate the difference to be about 7-9 higher.

Ryiah
02-19-2013, 11:07 AM
I would estimate the difference to be about 7-9 higher.

Nice to see so many people correcting me and every single one of them produces a different increase total. :p

apaurin
02-19-2013, 12:04 PM
...it goes up to 11...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE

Couldn't resist :)

wgperi
02-19-2013, 01:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE

Couldn't resist :)

"... well its one louder." lol

LOOON375
02-19-2013, 01:43 PM
level 7 rogue.

Temple of Vol elite.

What am I missing?

It's a level 14 quest on normal, and level 16 on elite. That means you are 9 levels below the quest level. That says to me that you were way over your head, so to speak.

You would be very hard pressed to be able to get those traps on normal, considering. If you could get those traps on elite, at your level, that would be worthy of posting in the achievments forum.

Your example is not a 'good' way to determine if your trap skills are where they should be. Your trapping skills are probably more than adequate, but going into that high of level a quest will not determine anything for you.

Heck, your group leader should have known better.

A good place to test your current trap skill level, would be to do Gwylan's Stand in House P on elite. If you can get those at your level, you are doing good.

Ryiah
02-19-2013, 01:52 PM
It's a level 14 quest on normal, and level 16 on elite.

You're thinking of the "Desecrated Temple of Vol". This is the "Temple of Vol" in House Phiarlan used for "the Church and the Cult" quest.

LOOON375
02-19-2013, 02:10 PM
You're thinking of the "Desecrated Temple of Vol". This is the "Temple of Vol" in House Phiarlan used for "the Church and the Cult" quest.
Ok, my mistake.

But the same premise applies.

That's a level 11 quest on elite, which is much harder to get the traps in a quest that is level 11 on normal.

The OP is still 4 levels below the quest level, and would still qualify as being 'over his head' IMHO.

stefferweffer
02-19-2013, 03:39 PM
OP, nothing is "wrong". You're doing fine. I wrote a thread about this a couple months ago when I went through Gwylan's Stand on Hard and I was around level 5 or 6. I had all the best stuff I could get, + Human Vers, + Heroism, and I still couldn't spot anything, let alone find and disable.

The game seems to be pretty strict on the quest level vs player level, ESPECIALLY if you boost the quest level even higher. Now that I am 20 I see/find everything and have still, to this day, never "blown" a trap.

I agree that the team leader should have never expected you to be of any use with these traps, all things considered.

Stormraiser
02-19-2013, 04:09 PM
Nice to see so many people correcting me and every single one of them produces a different increase total. :p

That is because the difference is subjective to what someone has access to as far as items (including very rare twink gear), race, build.
:)

Sojourner
02-19-2013, 04:21 PM
You should also check out the "Trap and Lock" project on the Wiki. It's got good numbers on it. Anything you can write down while you're running and then update the page is appreciated too.

For that mission - http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks/9#The_Church_and_the_Cult

On elite, you're wanting 47s for Disable and 32 for Search/Spot

On the character you described:
INT = 18 (14 base + 4 Fox/Item + 2 ShipBuff)
WIS = Assuming 14 (8 Base + 4 Owl/Item + 2 Ship)
Items = +10 max for level 7
Tools = +7 (for +5 tools)
Hero Pot = +2
Mechanic = +2
Boost = +3

Disable = 10 skill + 4 INT + 7 tools + 10 item +2 Heroism +2 Mechanic +3 Boost = 38 - you'd need to roll 9 to disable. And Crit-Fail on a roll of less than 4. Fairly safe. Might take a few tries for success, but only blows up on a bad roll.
Search = 10 skill + 4 INT + 10 item +2 Heroism +2 Mechanic + 3 Boost = 31 - you're a point short. Maybe with the Voice of the master for luck. This also assumes you're using the same boost to search and disable - have a lot of boosts, only a few traps, or move quick.
Spot = 10 skill + 2 WIS + 10 item +2 Heroism + 2 Mechanic = 26 - you're definitely not going to spot it, have to rely on someone that knows the mission

On a level 11, running that mission (because it's 11 on elite) - assuming an additional boost enhancement (need level 12 for Mechanic II)
Disable = 14 skill + 4 INT + 7 tools + 13 item +2 Heroism +2 Mechanic +4 Boost = 46 - you'd only fail on a 1, it would never blow up
Search = 14 skill + 4 INT + 13 item +2 Heroism +2 Mechanic = 35 - even without the boost you're fine
Spot = 14 skill + 2 WIS + 13 item +2 Heroism + 2 Mechanic = 33 - it's close, but you're ok

LordMond63
02-19-2013, 05:19 PM
I can't speak to your specific situation, but, at lower levels, I found it more than occasionally useful for a Divine caster to take Find Traps and have that running in quests where it was doubtful that the Rogue/Arti's Spot was high enough to locate traps during regular movement and/or if no one knew the quest well enough to know for certain where the traps were located. You'll still have to Disable them or avoid them of course, but knowing where they are helps with both.

OP- in my opinion you're asking an awful lot of your character to expect him to be able to reliably find and disable traps in quests 4 above your level. I'm not about to say that it is impossible to do so, as I'm sure there are some players who, through the effects of multiple past lives, absolutely top of the line gear for every occasion, etc. can do just that. But, if you're an average player, I think your expectations are a wee bit too high. All you can do is keep all appropriate skills at level (Search, Disable, Open Locks and I consider Spot to be important enough to include on that list, even if your WIS score isn't enhanced) and keep updating your gear to the best you can afford.

jeffry550
02-22-2013, 04:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE

Couldn't resist :)

Well played sir
+1 to you

icekinslayer
02-22-2013, 04:36 PM
http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks/9#The_Church_and_the_Cult


yep, what Sojourner said. http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks is an invaluable resource if you are looking for benchmarks to be hitting at all level ranges.

Todkaninchen
02-22-2013, 05:21 PM
One bit of equipment advice...

Since both a prefix and a suffix add together to determine the items minimum level, NEVER get a skill item with a prefix or--if you can get a higher attribute boost--an attribute item with a suffix. So, a Clever +2 item of Disabling +7 might sound convenient, but if you can use a Clever +4 item or better at that level and a Disabling +11, you're killing yourself.

So, pick a slot--I prefer goggles--for your skills and put your INT in either the headgear or rings. This is because all the skills can go on the goggles and--if you pick up something named that has a good combo of Search/Spot/Disable on them for a good minimum level, it's often goggles for rogues. Purchase or craft a set of goggles for the following:

Persuasion (boosts UMD, crafted only)
Spot
Search
Disable Device
Open Lock (craftable only)

If you like, clickies can be had on goggles as well. So, haste is pretty easy to find. Don't put anything like Underwater Action on them though*...

Then make a hotbar and put them on the bar in order. If you have a distinctive looking set--like the haste-clicky goggles from Chronoscope, it helps you make sure you have the right ones. Run with Spot selected, switch to search to search, disable to disable, then back to Spot.

One other suggestion... Crystal Cove Spyglasses. If you plan on TRing, make an entire set and take them to Tier 3. They are usually as high as a single suffix item for the level, the Tier 3's might also give you a decent INT boost for a single slot and are a source of UMD boosting. If you get them, all you need is a set of goggles or other item for Disable/Open Locks...

Good luck!


* - There are a few quests where you have to search and/or disable traps in the water. not having to switch means more time. I suggest the Mire Boots from the Red Fens. It puts your Underwater Action in an unusual location that doesn't take a ring/headgear/goggle slot which can be pretty busy on a rogue or arti.