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the613
02-08-2013, 04:31 PM
Well, I guess this isn't a suggestion so much as a couple of observations and a trying to figure out how to fix something that I perceive as a problem.

Anyway, as per the title, I am worried about the amount of dev interaction here and the attitudes displayed on here. As it goes, this is a game with lots of people, and it therefore would display different personalities. I understand this. As I have seen, there are a couple of rather distinct personality types on here.

1) the "doooooom" type. These people tend to criticize turbine and the devs a lot, screaming how DDO is coming to an end, and so forth.

2) the extreme stance type. These people are set one way in a debate so far that anything for the other side is totally ignored, or used to put up an insult of "see, you're one of those (insert stance) jerks".

3) the joker type. They like posting funny, ridiculous stuff just for laughs. Some times they might come off as a doom or extreme stance type, but are doing it sarcastically.

4) the helpful type. They post builds, answer questions in the new player section, put up guides, etc.

5) the "meh, just browsing" type. Mostly they just look at the newest threads to see what's going on.

Obviously, this is not a complete list, but it shows some of what is encountered. Also, people aren't necessarily one type. Myself for example, could fit in to at least joker and browsing types, though I enjoy being helpful when I can also.

Recently (well for a while now) I have noticed an increase in the "doom" and extreme stance types in posts, and I haven't really seen much dev interaction (with exceptions of dealing with u17 and (though possibly due to) tolero's fundraising thing last year). Honestly, the problem is (imo) this is a snowball effect. The more obnoxious players get (the doom and extreme stance players can get pretty nasty), the less devs would want to interact. On the other hand, the less devs interact, the more riled up these groups seem to get (devs not giving us info means extreme stance arguments going on for long periods of time, doom types professing that the fact things haven't been shot down proves their thoughts, etc).


I am going to propose something because honestly, I am sick of the threads demanding stuff, the doom posts, and the insults slung around on here. I understand if the devs don't want to deal with it, though I always feel great when I see tolero or someone else post something.

My suggestion is to have a few devs meet with a few of the well respected forumites here every once in a while and discuss what has been said on the forums in regards to what would be important for them to know (suggestions, general chat stuff about bug fixes). Then those forumites would be tasked with talking with the rest of the forums as to what the devs said.

This thread is not exactly about my suggestion though. I want to get people thinking on this issue, coming up with other possible solutions. Heck, maybe I am entirely misjudging things. I want an honest to goodness debate, no insulting, no screaming, no "my idea or no idea" attitudes.

So to start off, tell me what you think of my observations, my thoughts on the problem, and my proposed solution. Then, feel free to point things out I might have missed, bring up your own solution, or otherwise bring something to the debate, so long as everyone stays civil and actually contemplates what others say. If you don't feel you can accomplish this, feel free to look, but please don't post.

BOgre
02-08-2013, 04:46 PM
While the idea of roundtables and townhalls is fine, i think the only way that attitudes will improve 'round here is if work on bug fixes was more visible, work on quality of life was more visible.

The current state of the game is frightfully inconsistent, and since Turbine can't possibly talk to EVERYone who is being negatively impacted by game-breaking problems, there will continue to be doom/extreme stance threads.

Please more people by fixing their issues. Lost ED XP on Reincarnation is a prime example. The customer isn't interested in whether or not the developers can locate the root of this problem. They don't care what, if anything, they have in common with other players who've lost their XP. They just want the XP back. Give it to them. No amount of discussion is going to make these people feel less ripped off...

Celastelin
02-08-2013, 04:46 PM
The only reason that I wouldn't like the idea is because this reminds me of the "telephone tag" game we played in high school. Essentially the more people involved in point to point communications, the more the original message gets skewed.

I've been thinking about the issue quite a bit and it seems the devs don't seem to respond to positive feedback as they do negative. Sometimes you see Tolero for example close an inflammatory post, but it lets you know that she actually read the post to begin with.

Sure the devs might read each and every post but how does a poster know for a fact that his or her post get read? Maybe one solution is to send a read receipt automatically as a pm to the OP whenever a dev clicks on the post. Either way I agree that we do need a solution to this, as we need a happier customer base.

Musouka
02-08-2013, 05:02 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534

If they can shrink that down by half, I'm quite sure the community here would improve.

the613
02-08-2013, 05:31 PM
BOgre: I agree with you on the need for visibility, but on the other hand, we can't have much real visibility if the people who have the information and the people who want the information aren't talking. Debugging and fixing issues is a long and frustrating task, something that is increasingly frustrating and long the larger the code is. This means for visibility to exist, we need to be informed what bugs are being worked on and such.

Celastelin: I see your point, and I think that your idea might do very well.

Musouka: Assuming no new content and having every dev work on bug fixes, I wouldn't bet on this being able to be done in less then 6 months. The source code for ddo has to be very large, that list of bugs is fairly large, it is not realistic to expect half of them to be fixed for a while imho.

Musouka
02-08-2013, 08:38 PM
Musouka: Assuming no new content and having every dev work on bug fixes, I wouldn't bet on this being able to be done in less then 6 months. The source code for ddo has to be very large, that list of bugs is fairly large, it is not realistic to expect half of them to be fixed for a while imho.

I wont assume how they do it, or even expect realism from it, but if it were possible, I truly believe the community would improve greatly. Or I could just be looking at it optimistically, as some people will say that complainers will just find something new to complain about.

Llewndyn
02-11-2013, 11:34 AM
Well, I guess this isn't a suggestion so much as a couple of observations and a trying to figure out how to fix something that I perceive as a problem.

Anyway, as per the title, I am worried about the amount of dev interaction here and the attitudes displayed on here. As it goes, this is a game with lots of people, and it therefore would display different personalities. I understand this. As I have seen, there are a couple of rather distinct personality types on here.

1) the "doooooom" type. These people tend to criticize turbine and the devs a lot, screaming how DDO is coming to an end, and so forth.

2) the extreme stance type. These people are set one way in a debate so far that anything for the other side is totally ignored, or used to put up an insult of "see, you're one of those (insert stance) jerks".

3) the joker type. They like posting funny, ridiculous stuff just for laughs. Some times they might come off as a doom or extreme stance type, but are doing it sarcastically.

4) the helpful type. They post builds, answer questions in the new player section, put up guides, etc.

5) the "meh, just browsing" type. Mostly they just look at the newest threads to see what's going on.

Obviously, this is not a complete list, but it shows some of what is encountered. Also, people aren't necessarily one type. Myself for example, could fit in to at least joker and browsing types, though I enjoy being helpful when I can also.

Recently (well for a while now) I have noticed an increase in the "doom" and extreme stance types in posts, and I haven't really seen much dev interaction (with exceptions of dealing with u17 and (though possibly due to) tolero's fundraising thing last year). Honestly, the problem is (imo) this is a snowball effect. The more obnoxious players get (the doom and extreme stance players can get pretty nasty), the less devs would want to interact. On the other hand, the less devs interact, the more riled up these groups seem to get (devs not giving us info means extreme stance arguments going on for long periods of time, doom types professing that the fact things haven't been shot down proves their thoughts, etc).


I am going to propose something because honestly, I am sick of the threads demanding stuff, the doom posts, and the insults slung around on here. I understand if the devs don't want to deal with it, though I always feel great when I see tolero or someone else post something.

My suggestion is to have a few devs meet with a few of the well respected forumites here every once in a while and discuss what has been said on the forums in regards to what would be important for them to know (suggestions, general chat stuff about bug fixes). Then those forumites would be tasked with talking with the rest of the forums as to what the devs said.

This thread is not exactly about my suggestion though. I want to get people thinking on this issue, coming up with other possible solutions. Heck, maybe I am entirely misjudging things. I want an honest to goodness debate, no insulting, no screaming, no "my idea or no idea" attitudes.

So to start off, tell me what you think of my observations, my thoughts on the problem, and my proposed solution. Then, feel free to point things out I might have missed, bring up your own solution, or otherwise bring something to the debate, so long as everyone stays civil and actually contemplates what others say. If you don't feel you can accomplish this, feel free to look, but please don't post.

And it's been a long time since I have done a Top 10 List... hmmm...

blerkington
02-11-2013, 09:07 PM
Hi,

This is an interesting topic. And I think the OP has made a good suggestion for improvement.

It's ultimately up to Turbine to decide how they want to interact with players. They aren't obliged to tell us anything, and it's clear that dealing with the forum folk (me included) is sometimes a chore.

What we've seen over the last few months of the approach to communication with players has been extremely inconsistent, especially after the MOTU release time promises of better communication. Spelling out what that promise means and then sticking to it is important. Or, alternatively, admitting that the intention to do that is no longer there.

I think at minimum, it would be good to have a properly developed known issues list and more time allocated to communicating to players about bugs. Especially serious ones, such as the loss of ED xp due to reincarnation.

All players are customers, either actual or potential, so providing a quality product and good customer service is a requirement if the goal is to retain happy people rather than just churn through them. This game is a long way from that standard at the moment, even by comparison to some other MMOs, let alone other commercial sectors. There will be a cost for improving this, but there will also be benefits.

I think poor treatment of Turbine staff on the forums is unfortunate but also created, to a large extent, by the company's approach to dealing with us. And I suspect it could be greatly improved by the company changing its approach.

Some examples of areas for improvement are clarity and consistency in how in-game tickets are handled, better communication with players about hot issues, more attention to detail and work on bugs, better prioritisation for fixing bugs, doing more to retain long term customers (both premium and VIP), and less snarkiness by Turbine employees on the forums here.

Once you are doing those types of things well, the residual complaining on the forums really just amounts to noise. Something which, although unpleasant, can be ignored in good conscience.

Thanks.

susiedupfer
02-12-2013, 06:53 PM
I am going to reiterate what I replied to someone in General Discussion about this:

Devs are human beings with 24 hours in a day. Just like you and I. During that time, they are only at work so many hours. They are entitled to their time off just like you and I.

Devs have bosses. Bosses who determine what they do and when they do it. Bosses look at bottom lines when determining what has priority. When people say devs do or do not do something, the devs are the bad guys. They are not. It is whoever is determining what those folks are doing with their time.

I, for one, would much prefer that the devs spend their working hours fixing bugs or working on new content than in some sort of meeting. I do appreciate communication. And truthfulness. But, not at the cost of bug fixes.

Galeria
02-12-2013, 08:03 PM
My take on the situation has been the same for quite a while:

It is ok for Turbine to ignore the posts on the forum. As one dev put it, there is a lot of "noise" here that isn't very helpful.

If it were my company though, I'd view the constant feedback with the idea that it's a heck of a lot of free market research if you don't take it personal. Which it isn't, really, but I can understand if some people get their feelings hurt reading the feedback about their hard work.

It is NOT ok for Turbine to simply stop communicating with their customers.

Sorry, but this is a business. Turbine needs to hire a talented PR staff (or even just one person) to release information on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be two-way communication, but it needs to be consistent, timely and thoughtfully presented.

Soooooo many things Turbine has done over the time I have been playing could have been:


Happily anticipated



Better understood



Explained why things that seem bad or hurtful were necessary



Let players in on the big picture about where things are headed.


Personally, I understand that the game changes. The goals move, the objectives shift, the foundation has to be realigned. I don't always like it, but I get it.

What I find offensive is how many things are dumped on players with absolutely no warning, no explanation and no attempt to ease the delivery. The attitude that comes across is that players don't deserve such communication and Turbine will do whatever it wants and doesn't need to explain anything to us because we just don't matter.

They've obviously given up on the forum, and I don't mind that. Players come here to help each other, to vent and to gossip; it doesn't have to be an official communication channel for them. But they need to offer a little more than the occasional vlog about trivial topics to their customers.

redspecter23
02-12-2013, 08:52 PM
My take on the situation has been the same for quite a while:

It is ok for Turbine to ignore the posts on the forum. As one dev put it, there is a lot of "noise" here that isn't very helpful.

If it were my company though, I'd view the constant feedback with the idea that it's a heck of a lot of free market research if you don't take it personal. Which it isn't, really, but I can understand if some people get their feelings hurt reading the feedback about their hard work.

It is NOT ok for Turbine to simply stop communicating with their customers.

Sorry, but this is a business. Turbine needs to hire a talented PR staff (or even just one person) to release information on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be two-way communication, but it needs to be consistent, timely and thoughtfully presented.

Soooooo many things Turbine has done over the time I have been playing could have been:


Happily anticipated



Better understood



Explained why things that seem bad or hurtful were necessary



Let players in on the big picture about where things are headed.


Personally, I understand that the game changes. The goals move, the objectives shift, the foundation has to be realigned. I don't always like it, but I get it.

What I find offensive is how many things are dumped on players with absolutely no warning, no explanation and no attempt to ease the delivery. The attitude that comes across is that players don't deserve such communication and Turbine will do whatever it wants and doesn't need to explain anything to us because we just don't matter.

They've obviously given up on the forum, and I don't mind that. Players come here to help each other, to vent and to gossip; it doesn't have to be an official communication channel for them. But they need to offer a little more than the occasional vlog about trivial topics to their customers.

One might think that the devs or possibly the higher ups, view the forums as a waste of their time compared to what they could be doing. I agree there is a lot of noise, but if you cover a million dollars in a pile of cow dung, you still have a million dollars there. You just have to dig a little and clean yourself off when you're done.

There is some priceless info here on the forums that is met with silence and dismissal for reasons not quite known to the forum population. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Hire someone that has one job. Liaison between the devs and the community. Basically a guy that can answer compelling questions that players get frustrated about. This person handles the hot button issues and gives truthful answers. Sometimes hard to swallow, but always truthful. Players don't want to hear about upcoming changes that, from our perspective, serve no reason other than to annoy. Players get frustrated partly because of the actual issue, then it turns frustration into rage because of a lack of communication about that issue. A small amount of communication can stop a rage thread dead in its tracks before it even gets going, but we just don't have that.

One recent example that come to mind:

Greater false life augment swap from yellow to blue - Complete silence. No reason given at all for the change. Our community assumption is that it is rogue dev whimsy at work. So many players agree that the change makes no sense at all, yet we are left to assume that every dev that this was discussed with thought it was a good change. How? Are we that much disconnected from each other that two groups can have such a polarizing view on something? A bit of info on why the devs felt it was a good change would be welcomed but we get... silence, which just fuels the frustration.

Communication doesn't have to be such a bad thing. Take a look at the Wizards of the Coast site, particularly http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/234 This article in particular is a great example of how the people behind the game have opened communication with the community. Turbine. Take notes.

Missing_Minds
02-12-2013, 10:14 PM
Turbine. Take notes.
They have, just not applying it to DDO. LOTRO is getting a player counsel this year.

bartharok
02-12-2013, 10:51 PM
One might think that the devs or possibly the higher ups, view the forums as a waste of their time compared to what they could be doing. I agree there is a lot of noise, but if you cover a million dollars in a pile of cow dung, you still have a million dollars there. You just have to dig a little and clean yourself off when you're done.



The problem with the million dollars in cow dung analogy is that its usually about 10 cents/pile of manure.

If the devs started responding more often, i think that people wouldnt get any nicer. They would probably just get more demanding. It is part of the modern human nature to expect diamonds for pennies.

redspecter23
02-12-2013, 11:14 PM
The problem with the million dollars in cow dung analogy is that its usually about 10 cents/pile of manure.

If the devs started responding more often, i think that people wouldnt get any nicer. They would probably just get more demanding. It is part of the modern human nature to expect diamonds for pennies.

I certainly don't expect the community to get any nicer as a whole. I just know that I personally could relate to and respect a more vocal Turbine team. There are probably others that feel the way I do. To me it just feels like a wasted opportunity to not have a vocal presence on your own forums regarding player issues.

bartharok
02-12-2013, 11:54 PM
I certainly don't expect the community to get any nicer as a whole. I just know that I personally could relate to and respect a more vocal Turbine team. There are probably others that feel the way I do. To me it just feels like a wasted opportunity to not have a vocal presence on your own forums regarding player issues.

I would be happier as well if they responded more often. I just dont think it would do much good, and can understand it fi they do not wish to show themselves on the forums, considering the behaviour of many.

Galeria
02-13-2013, 01:28 AM
If they never responded here on the forums again, I'd be ok with that. There's no need for them to open themselves up to the direct hostility of the forum posters and individual posters aren't entitled to have their every question answered. That would be counter productive.

But if they took a proactive stance and explained things like the augment system upfront (and no, I don't mean "Hey, we are revamping the augment system. Yay, team!") things would go more smoothly. They don't have to answer questions or respond to outbursts, but they really ought to offer more explanation than they do.

Yes, every word would be dissected for hidden or convoluted meanings, doom would be predicted and there would be many threats of cancelling subscriptions... but no more than there already are when things get dumped on us without a word. Maybe even less rage. Think of that.

Those of us who are reasonable individuals (there are a few) would appreciate being treated with a little respect and be more likely to accept and even welcome the changes instead of joining the tinfoil hat and pitchfork groups.

Mastikator
02-13-2013, 04:28 AM
The amount of doom threads is low as far as I'm seeing. The extreme stance people are fine though, they tend to balance each other out and since they care so deeply they think a lot about it and as a result provide valuable insight that regular users don't (sorry regular users).

The dev interaction seems fine too, they occasionally respond to people, and when they do it's respectful (more-so than the average user), and they do write update and patch logs and have a known issue list, never have I submitted a bug that was ignored.

The thing about devs writing on the forums is that they do it as a part of their job, meaning they can't fix bugs or add content while reading badly written angry posts. Also you have to consider just how unpleasant it is to respond to some of the more toxic threads, most threads are written in anger, and in my experience no thread that starts out angry has ever any fruit.

CaptainSpacePony
02-13-2013, 06:59 AM
The dev interaction seems fine too, they occasionally respond to people, and when they do it's respectful (more-so than the average user), and they do write update and patch logs and have a known issue list, never have I submitted a bug that was ignored.

The thing about devs writing on the forums is that they do it as a part of their job, meaning they can't fix bugs or add content while reading badly written angry posts. Also you have to consider just how unpleasant it is to respond to some of the more toxic threads, most threads are written in anger, and in my experience no thread that starts out angry has ever any fruit.

I agree with Mastikator with one significant exception. I believe there should be MUCH more dev interaction in the Suggestions and Ideas forums. This area exists specifically for players to communicate with the devs. The devs should be read every suggestion and idea thread and leave a "read by a dev comment". As it stands, I assume that most of my posts in this section (as others) goes unread and therefore unconsidered by those that work on the game. Yes, I admit, this hurts my feelings. >sniff sniff<

Reading the current volume of posts in the S/I forums does not take a lot of time. I check it several times every day.

Feralthyrtiaq
02-13-2013, 07:17 AM
Even as paying (or non-paying "customers") they owe us nothing. They don't have to listen, respond or even care what DDO players think.

Things we can do...

1) Log on with a user name and pass word.

Any thing after that is circumstancial.


People can and will take issue with all kinds of different things in this game or any other.

The mistake they make is believing their opinion actually matters.

DDO Devs/Mods w/e play a game of their own with us. They lead us along with hopes for good changes, and hope for known issues getting fixed. But we keep playing.

Thats the bottom line.

Any thinking person would take issue with what is MOTIVATING certain changes in this game.

Any thinking person would realize that DDO falls into a catagory of things not included in Food, Water, Shelter. You know...ENTERTAINMENT!

Then ask yourself...

Why have an opinion at all about these things? They don't care. Others might seem to care but they really don't.

Mastikator
02-13-2013, 08:02 AM
I agree with MastikatorHurray :D!
with one significant exception.aww:(!
[snip] I believe there should be MUCH more dev interaction in the Suggestions and Ideas forums. This area exists specifically for players to communicate with the devs. The devs should be read every suggestion and idea thread and leave a "read by a dev comment". As it stands, I assume that most of my posts in this section (as others) goes unread and therefore unconsidered by those that work on the game. Yes, I admit, this hurts my feelings. >sniff sniff<

Reading the current volume of posts in the S/I forums does not take a lot of time. I check it several times every day.It doesn't take a lot of time I agree, but the quality of 9/10 suggestions take a certain... psychological toll, there are a couple of really good suggestions, and a small fraction of those are even fleshed out.
It would be wonderful if the devs could encourage good suggestions by simply saying "thank your for your suggestion".
To be honest there are a lot of ideas that I haven't bothered to make a thread about because I know it won't read by a dev.

CaptainSpacePony
02-13-2013, 08:08 AM
It doesn't take a lot of time I agree, but the quality of 9/10 suggestions take a certain... psychological toll, there are a couple of really good suggestions, and a small fraction of those are even fleshed out.
It would be wonderful if the devs could encourage good suggestions by simply saying "thank your for your suggestion".
To be honest there are a lot of ideas that I haven't bothered to make a thread about because I know it won't read by a dev.

More agreement from me.

BurnerD
02-13-2013, 08:15 AM
I think Turbine can get the information they need through a number of tools. The forum is one of them, but probably not the most effective in their eyes.

The primary cause of the doom/extreme posts is the decay in performance or "quality of life" within the game.

I think most who have played the game for more than a few years will agree that the trend has been negative in regards to performance of the game. The number of bugs has grown with the new content, but the rate at which the bugs are squashed has not. I think some of the additions have challenged the current "tech" as well.

There was a promise that more attention would be paid to fixing the bugs. Due to the age of some of the bugs many players are frustrated at the speed and approach to fixing them.

I do believe the Devs are doing their best to fix what they can. As stated their time and focus is not their own. I'm sure the change in ownership had a significant impact on their internal plans as well.

Unfortunately as a customer we have two options once we have communicated our discontent. We can accept the current state and continue to play or we can choose not to be a customer. It really is that simple. Communicating issues and providing feedback are always positive. Threats and insults have zero effect. Trolling someone who has brought up an issue is also a negative. There are many good discussions on the forums, but it is not uncommon for a well intentioned thread to devolve into a catfight.

If the customer base shrinks the numbers cruncher take note. Threatening to leave does nothing. For the record I am not advocating this act unless you feel you can no longer find any enjoyment in the game. I still find more positives than negatives so I'm staying for now :)

Instead of draining more devs time let's try to keep our feedback civil and to the point.

Ginarrbrik
02-13-2013, 08:45 AM
sometimes, being on the forums feels like this:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9809/trollsvn.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/trollsvn.jpg/)

surrounded by trolls...

Ganolyn
02-13-2013, 10:12 AM
It doesn't take a lot of time I agree, but the quality of 9/10 suggestions take a certain... psychological toll, there are a couple of really good suggestions, and a small fraction of those are even fleshed out.

Then get rid of that section of the forums. To have it there and entice people (mainly newer players who don't know better) to post in there when it will never be regarded as useful, is insulting to say the least. Every suggestion format is going to produce crazy, stupid, non-workable ideas. That doesn't mean that all are crazy, stupid and non-workable.





It would be wonderful if the devs could encourage good suggestions by simply saying "thank your for your suggestion".

That's what "read by a dev" was supposed to do and we all saw how fast that stopped. What I'd like to see is a system where they address good/plausible ideas by the following set of responses. They could be copy and paste in, requiring almost no time to respond:


1) That's a good idea! We will look into implementing that in the future. (No promises)

2) That's good idea, but the current code, servers, budget (or whatever) is not equiped to handle such a system. We will let you know if things change in the future.

3) That idea will never be implemented. Please do not continue to bring it up.


This would at least cut down on the repeated attempts to suggest the same idea. And if not, those people could be directed to the post where a dev responded to the topic.





To be honest there are a lot of ideas that I haven't bothered to make a thread about because I know it won't read by a dev.


Same here. Their rather upfront attitude that if you don't spend money that your opinion and game needs are worthless to them doesn't help matters much (the ability to get GM help only if you spent money in the last 45 days comes to mind. I realize that Turbine is a business, but being jerks doesn't get people to spend money with you). I've spent money and my opinion and game needs are still unimportant to them.

The other problem is that, much like politics, if you come up with an idea/solution that helps everyone and hurts no one, nobody cares or supports it. This doesn't happen all of the time, but I see it frequently.

If you post a polarizing idea/solution you will get 5+ pages of insults, snarky comments and people just saying "No" with no explanation why. In there you will get a few thoughtful reponses, but for the most part it is junk.

jortann
02-13-2013, 10:59 AM
The problem with the million dollars in cow dung analogy is that its usually about 10 cents/pile of manure.

If the devs started responding more often, i think that people wouldnt get any nicer. They would probably just get more demanding. It is part of the modern human nature to expect diamonds for pennies.

I think this is true. When I first started the game the Forums were different. They were better. They were more enjoyable. It was more a place of community where the players got together to share. We shared our ideas, sucesses, failures and laughs with each other. You could count on at least a couple of funny threads each day. We were a community that got together to spend time together. And the devs hardly ever responded to us - it was rare to see a post by them.

But then things changed... Now the majority of posts are people criticizing the game or people demanding changes. I think the problem was the Devs interacting with us. Instead of us taking that as a good thing and being civil about it we attacked. We demanded changes. We looked for anything wrong with whatever they said. We voiced our displeasure with the game. We screamed about the bugs. We insulted Turbine and mocked Fernando. We realized we had a voice and we were going to be heard!

And to no big surprise the devs slowly slipped away and stopped participating.

And we are still screaming.

Seikojin
02-13-2013, 03:59 PM
My take on the situation has been the same for quite a while:

It is ok for Turbine to ignore the posts on the forum. As one dev put it, there is a lot of "noise" here that isn't very helpful.

If it were my company though, I'd view the constant feedback with the idea that it's a heck of a lot of free market research if you don't take it personal. Which it isn't, really, but I can understand if some people get their feelings hurt reading the feedback about their hard work.

It is NOT ok for Turbine to simply stop communicating with their customers.

Sorry, but this is a business. Turbine needs to hire a talented PR staff (or even just one person) to release information on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be two-way communication, but it needs to be consistent, timely and thoughtfully presented.

Soooooo many things Turbine has done over the time I have been playing could have been:


Happily anticipated



Better understood



Explained why things that seem bad or hurtful were necessary



Let players in on the big picture about where things are headed.


Personally, I understand that the game changes. The goals move, the objectives shift, the foundation has to be realigned. I don't always like it, but I get it.

What I find offensive is how many things are dumped on players with absolutely no warning, no explanation and no attempt to ease the delivery. The attitude that comes across is that players don't deserve such communication and Turbine will do whatever it wants and doesn't need to explain anything to us because we just don't matter.

They've obviously given up on the forum, and I don't mind that. Players come here to help each other, to vent and to gossip; it doesn't have to be an official communication channel for them. But they need to offer a little more than the occasional vlog about trivial topics to their customers.

Management typically disdains forums. They see it as a double edged sword. You get feedback, but you also get distractions. In the entirety of my career, I have never met a VP that has said, take to the forums for feature feedback and improvement. They all say they are leery of them because of how much time it takes to sift through all the banter and get decent, actionable information. It would be like saying the return of investment on forums is very low.

If you were to look at the higherarchy of a corperation, 90%+ of the people of said company love the forums and they also have no control on if they can speak to the users of the forums. Most rules are post infrequently, read more, don't give out secrets, and no personal information let alone personal opinions. The older the company/forum, the more lax the rules on personal stances become. Then someone audits the whole process and it resets.

Most companies have liasons to bring important threads to the attention of QA/PM's/etc. But that is a cost that can and usually be, cut in the name of saving money. Then it, in an unstated fashion, becomes a responsability from the forum users end, that the other company end users have to chime in on. Then a set of people elect to become the voice for the company.

Anytime there is a singular input/ouput for two huge amounts of information, the bottleneck is severe.

As such, the people communicating to the forum don't always have the information in hand before changes in the product occur. Now if the launcher posted release notes for each update, then there would be at least that to help inform.

As it stands, I like the involvement from the devs. I wish they had less restriction on how they interact with the community, but there is person safety that can be compromised by that, so definitely I can understand the place for most of these rules.