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Hoglum
02-05-2013, 01:26 PM
I was checking out the Neverwinter site to see if I might like the new game. I figured since I really liked the Neverwinter Nights series quite a bit, maybe this game would take it to the next level. After reading the website for a while, I figured I’d share my findings with the DDO community. For the purpose of this post I’m going to focus on characters. I believe the character one plays is important to the enjoyment of the game. A lot of the abilities players get helps determine how the game actually plays, mechanics-wise. The videos I saw posted on their website seem to tell a lot about how this game will be played. Videos can be found here: http://nw.perfectworld.com/media/videos.

Here’s what I’ve gathered concerning the characters in Neverwinter and how they play. Each character, whether it’s a “Control Wizard”, Fighter (“Guradian” or “Great Weapon”), or “Trickster Rogue” is basically the same with some slight alterations. These four are the only ones I watched videos for but I don’t see how other classes will differ significantly.

Each character gets:
-A basic attack
-An alternate attack
-An encounter ability
-An area effect attack
-A defensive ability

To compare two classes I’ll use the “Control Wizard” and “Trickster Rogue”:

-Basic attack: Wizard gets Magic Missle while Rogue gets Sly Fourish – the difference is that the wizard attack has a bit of range.

-Alternate attack: Wizard gets Ray of Frost while Rogue gets Deft Strike – again, range is the biggest difference – the ray of frost may slow down/freeze enemies if used long enough (not sure about that).

-Encounter Ability: Wizard gets Chill Strike which is an icicle that stuns an enemy while Rogue gets Dazing Strike which stuns an enemy.

-Area Effect: Wizard gets Ice Storm while the Rogue gets Blood Bath – the graphics look different.

-Defensive Play: Wizard gets a short teleport while Rogue gets a tumble – no noticeable difference in how this actually works (graphics again).

The two fighters I watched (Guardian and Great Weapon) both looked to have about the same type of stuff with the Great Weapon fighter having no defensive maneuver that I saw in the video. The Guardian’s defensive play was “Guarding”, which is blocking with the shield. The funny thing is, it looked like the thing was on a timer. I suppose holding a shield up in Neverwinter counts as magic or something. I could be wrong about this but it struck me as odd that blocking with a shield would have a timer.

I then took a look at a developer’s blog concerning character customization. It can be found here: http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=806891.

The developer states, “In our last Dev Blog on character customization, we highlighted the nearly unlimited options available to customize your character’s appearance, race, class, gender, core stats, and background. But, this is just the beginning of your customization choices in Neverwinter”
THEN:
“In addition, equipping the right armor greatly improves your chances of survival or even walking away unscathed. With multiple armor slots, you have many ways to protect yourself from harm during battle. The most important slots are Head, Armor, Arms, and Feet to protect you from absolute fatal blows from foes. Other slots are necessary to enhance your effectiveness such as Neck, Waist, Shirt (under Armor), and Trousers.”

The first statement concerning appearance and such doesn’t sound like there’s much in the line of character development on that front. The blog, which the second statement I quoted is based off, just says you can use different equipment. This doesn’t sound like much character customization to me, but maybe we’ll see more – who knows? Since the character classes all look relatively static in powers & how they’re handled, I doubt there will be much.

The last thing I’ll touch up on is a quote I found interesting in the “About” section of the website found here: http://nw.perfectworld.com/about

The quote:
“New D&D, Beloved D&D
Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine. In the classic D&D setting of the Forgotten Realms, players will explore and defend one of the most beloved cities from Dungeons & Dragons, as it rises from the ashes of destruction.”

Haha, nice try. Keep telling people the same thing and maybe they’ll believe it. This statement reminds me of 1984 chocolate propaganda. The only thing in this I do believe is it will use the “dynamic cryptic game engine”.

Anyhow, I personally am no longer excited about Neverwinter. It looks stagnant from the start as far as I’m concerned. I’ll still try it out and play for a while in the hopes I’m wrong. Those of you who are all about “balancing” characters are going to be happy. They all seem to be about the same but with different appearances. I always wonder about people who over-rev on “balance”. Once you get perfect balance, nobody can differentiate.

I read a little about the foundry as well but won’t go too much into it. I figure if the game is fun to play I’ll worry about content later, but if it’s not (which I now expect) then it won’t matter. I would, however, like to implore the developers of DDO to find a way to expand content faster because, quite frankly, the other games I’ve seen simply don’t add up. Neverwinter doesn’t look too promising. I hope Skyrim doesn’t blow it. This is all my opinion of course, but it just doesn’t look good to me. I hope it turns out better than how I currently feel about it, and perhaps some or many of you reading this actually think Neverwinter looks cool.

Arnhelm
02-06-2013, 08:10 AM
Thanks for something to think about. I'm not thrilled with NWO at the moment, but the closed beta is just getting started this coming weekend. Might turn out to be a great game. I'll wait and see.

gphysalis
02-06-2013, 08:16 AM
That reminds me of 4th edition.

I had been looking at Neverwinter, but now I know for certain that I will never play it.

Syllph
02-06-2013, 08:19 AM
The Elder Scrolls Online looks like it's going to be the one MMO that brings every other MMO down. Only bad thing about this game I can even begin to see is the huge graphics engine you'll likely need. Players on weaker rigs will still have to play older games. It has the combat of DDO, the graphics of Skyrim, the PVP of (I dunno but looks awesome!). Not to mention that TES has constantly pushed the envelope of what is possible with every game they'd made.

To say I'm excited is an understatement.

AZgreentea
02-06-2013, 08:38 AM
That reminds me of 4th edition.

I had been looking at Neverwinter, but now I know for certain that I will never play it.
I would really doubt we will ever see a new 3.5 or older D&D game ever again. Any new game will be based on 4th Edition. NWO will be 4th edition, modified for an MMO like DDO is with 3.5.

Missing_Minds
02-06-2013, 08:39 AM
That reminds me of 4th edition.

I had been looking at Neverwinter, but now I know for certain that I will never play it.

NWO is based on 4th.

Every time I read anything people post about NWO I just keep hearing it is Champions Online reskinned for a fantasy medieval setting.


I would really doubt we will ever see a new 3.5 or older D&D game ever again. Any new game will be based on 4th Edition. NWO will be 4th edition, modified for an MMO like DDO is with 3.5.
Closest chance we have of that is Pathfinder but... after looking at their last attempt to fund it using kickstarter... errr... My hopes are not that high, honestly.

Uska
02-06-2013, 08:45 AM
NWO is based on 4th.

Every time I read anything people post about NWO I just keep hearing it is Champions Online reskinned for a fantasy medieval setting.


Closest chance we have of that is Pathfinder but... after looking at their last attempt to fund it using kickstarter... errr... My hopes are not that high, honestly.

I was so disapointed by champs on line I thought it would similar to champs the rpg at least along the same lines as ddo is to 3.5 but it had very little to do with the pnp game other than the name. The more I hear about NWO the more I feel it will be the same way.

patang01
02-06-2013, 08:48 AM
This looks like a generic hack and slash. I watched the fighter and the caster video. The fighter had the jump and stomp, a cleave thing going and the whirlwind. It seemed to be the only 3-4 things it ever used. Constantly.

The caster seemed to have this ice barrage thing, ice freeze ray and a missile attack of sort. Pretty much it. You'd think if they really wanted to turn people on to wanting to play it they'd add some diversity that brings it into a more interesting version of the hack and slash genre. I loved the original Neverwinter Nights but this seems so very generic like the plethora of hack and slash that was made in the wake of Diablo.

patang01
02-06-2013, 08:53 AM
The Elder Scrolls Online looks like it's going to be the one MMO that brings every other MMO down. Only bad thing about this game I can even begin to see is the huge graphics engine you'll likely need. Players on weaker rigs will still have to play older games. It has the combat of DDO, the graphics of Skyrim, the PVP of (I dunno but looks awesome!). Not to mention that TES has constantly pushed the envelope of what is possible with every game they'd made.

To say I'm excited is an understatement.

What slayes me about the PvP portion is how they force different races into factions; kind of like evil vs good but in a very corny way. I mean you have two races on the same faction side that traditionally hate each others (lizards and dark elves) and it's not based on region but on race.

And if you played all the different Elder Scroll it has more been regional then 'race' divide. To me it feels like they tried to find some kind of artificial barrier between different races like they have it in WoW (more like evil and good there) and Warhammer Online (evil vs good). Here the faction lines seems force fed.

The graphics look great, but can you sustain what have always felt like an episodical RPG into a continueous MMO? How do you treat the deadric gods and their gift? Will everyone run around being a Vampire Lord with the deadric special items?

Sometimes some things doesn't seem perfect for MMOs but who knows. I was always hoping for a co-op version of the universe but I'm not entirely sold on how this will make a generic MMO mold and at the same time feel and be epic.

taurean430
02-06-2013, 10:31 AM
Hmmm...

Graphics: A++
Gameplay: C at best
Customization: F--

This is a game that, while based on a 4th Edition Ruleset, has uniformly combined all DnD classes into the same thing with different graphical presentations. There are only two things I find to be interesting regarding this game:

1. Graphics (nice)
2. The Foundry, with it's player submitted content.

Otherwise, like 4th Edition, it's an experiment in failure.

I would presume that the healers must heal only/arcanes only buff meh crowd will find enjoyment being the exact same thing as everyone else.

Ape_Man
02-06-2013, 10:35 AM
It's ****.

AZgreentea
02-06-2013, 01:10 PM
Closest chance we have of that is Pathfinder but... after looking at their last attempt to fund it using kickstarter... errr... My hopes are not that high, honestly.
Was Pathfinder supposed to be 3.5? I would be surprised if it was, but I never looked into it. If I was WotC, I would only grant rights to their new stuff to keep it up front for people, and to keep everyone in the current story.

Missing_Minds
02-06-2013, 01:12 PM
Was Pathfinder supposed to be 3.5? I would be surprised if it was, but I never looked into it. If I was WotC, I would only grant rights to their new stuff to keep it up front for people, and to keep everyone in the current story.

I always figured pathfinder was an unoffical 3.75 given they made their own modifications based on 3.5. I've never run nor ran in a pathfinder game.

Maybe by the summer I'll have a chance to run in one, but being that I'm the most DnD knowledgeable of the group, I figure a LOT of things are going to be house ruled and not follow book rules due to the DM not being very experienced in DnD rules at all.

Sonos
02-06-2013, 02:02 PM
Why I like DDO over most stuff out there and upcoming:

Do not want:

http://vividgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/golden-axe-2.jpg

Vordax
02-06-2013, 02:36 PM
I always figured pathfinder was an unoffical 3.75 given they made their own modifications based on 3.5. I've never run nor ran in a pathfinder game.


It is basically 3.75, 3.5 with a lot of tweaks, been playing it for a few months now, overall a decent improvement to 3.5. Small things like bardic knowledge now grants half bard level to all knowledge checks and can be used untrained. To re-working all the grapple/trip etc rules.

cronusdeathspell
02-06-2013, 05:02 PM
I won't play another game from Cryptic.

My experience from them is that they get an IP, make a turnkey generic game out of it, and grab as much cash as they can from players in the process. Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Neverwinter... City of Heroes was their only good product, and that actually improved once they sold it.

I wouldn't touch Neverwinter with a 10' pole while wearing trapblast goggles.

Memnir
02-06-2013, 05:05 PM
The more I hear and see about the new NW... the less and less I want to play it.

It started out bad by being 4th ed, and has done nothing to go downhill since. The latest "pay us $200 to be a Drizzt clone" was just too hilarious for words. :)

Sonos
02-06-2013, 05:07 PM
The more I hear and see about the new NW... the less and less I want to play it.

It started out bad by being 4th ed, and has done nothing to go downhill since. The latest "pay us $200 to be a Drizzt clone" was just too hilarious for words. :)

Was excited to see a newer DnD game come out, was excieted to watch the teasers....that Control Wizard video made my smile drrrrop. Ffffffffaaaarrrrtttt. No ty.

CheeseMilk
02-06-2013, 05:47 PM
Was excited to see a newer DnD game come out, was excieted to watch the teasers....that Control Wizard video made my smile drrrrop. Ffffffffaaaarrrrtttt. No ty.

I made that exact same sound.

Just wasn't sure how to spell it until now.

:D

Krelar
02-06-2013, 08:18 PM
Is it just me or dose the "control wizard" look like he's making little *bang* *bang* finger gun motions while firing off some of his spells? :rolleyes:

die
02-06-2013, 09:39 PM
Iv'e been a part of thier Forum since it went live i will be checking it out, ive seen many things i like and some that i dont.. But even DDo has things i dont like. http://www.youtube.com/neverwintergame cant hurt too check it out FTP

die
02-06-2013, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE=die;4881166]Iv'e been a part of thier Forum since it went live i will be checking it out, ive seen many things i like and some that i dont.. But even DDo has things i dont like. http://www.youtube.com/neverwintergame cant hurt too check it out FTP

besides DDO is a far cry from what it was when it went live,

and some one brought up elder scrolls online that looooks sweet but i have not seen any real combat or how it will work.


What i dont like about the New nwn online is the combo moves. i think ide rather just have a hot key for my slide back stab or maybe im just getting old lol

Jay203
02-06-2013, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE=die;4881166]Iv'e been a part of thier Forum since it went live i will be checking it out, ive seen many things i like and some that i dont.. But even DDo has things i dont like. http://www.youtube.com/neverwintergame cant hurt too check it out FTP

besides DDO is a far cry from what it was when it went live,

and some one brought up elder scrolls online that looooks sweet but i have not seen any real combat or how it will work.


What i dont like about the New nwn online is the combo moves. i think ide rather just have a hot key for my slide back stab or maybe im just getting old lol

meh, gonna give NWO a shot, if it fails to impress, will move on

as for ESO, not putting my bet on it, don't like what Bethesda has been putting out...

Uska
02-06-2013, 11:16 PM
Was Pathfinder supposed to be 3.5? I would be surprised if it was, but I never looked into it. If I was WotC, I would only grant rights to their new stuff to keep it up front for people, and to keep everyone in the current story.

It's more like 3.75 and I dont care for it some people around here play it but I would rather play nothing than that.

Personally I prefer the new edition of hackmaster playing it makes me remember playing original dnd back in the 70's besides the people who make it also make the best comic ever.

llyrnionfor
02-07-2013, 03:25 AM
I'm skeptical, but I'll check it out.

I liked the combat, even though I doubt it will be that fluid when the servers are under real load. It reminded me of Amalur's combat, which is the 2nd best I've seen, only topped by Witcher 2. If I can actually get away from a mob before it hits without then taking 3 hits base on where I was 1 second ago (yes, ogres, this one's for you), I'll count it as a good sign.

The similarities between the classes don't bother me. Actually, the more I get to know MMOs (even though my only hands-on experience is in DDO), the more I'm convinced MMOs should do away with classes. Every skill/ability/whatever should be available to every "class", and the player would decide what to choose. Something similar to Elder Scrolls/Amalur, where a character can have a bit of everything - stealth, melee, offensive casting and healing. Not only it minimizes the "Healer Problem" (at the expense of much entertaining drama, true :)), but it also can minimize the high level caster/melee divide.

The one I should've checked out was GW2, but after my experience with DDO I'm wary of putting any money in an MMO without trying it out first.

However, every time I run through a WA to get to a quest only to get an error message because I forgot to talk to the quest giver; or every time I have to run from vendor to vendor to buy stuff; or every time I have to go up and down those lovely catacomb stairs (now that I unlocked VetII, I hope that'll be forever a memory); every time this happens, I actually wish there was an MMO that wouldn't make a priority out of wasting my time.

cdbd3rd
02-07-2013, 04:27 AM
I was checking out the Neverwinter site to see if I might like the new game. ....


Excellent write-up. From browsing some YouTube vids myself, I concur on your assessment of character "customization".

I went thru a similar experience as I had waited for YEARS for Diablo 3 to be released. But as more & more preview vids hit the net, I realized it was dead to me. Is looking like NWN is going to have the same anti-climatic release as D3 did for some of us.

Arnhelm
02-07-2013, 08:56 AM
... Is looking like NWN is going to have the same anti-climatic release as D3 did for some of us.
I've followed the NWO forums and game development since May of 2012. I hoped it would be a replacement for DDO. The more I've watched, the less impressed I've been.

Still, I'm going to check out the gameplay when I get a beta invite, no matter how late in the development process that occurs. Cryptic says everyone who applies for a beta key will get one eventually. I'll have enough time before the game goes live to decide whether to put time into the live version, or stay with DDO as my game.

One thing I've learned over the years of MMO playing - I can only play one game at a time.

Missing_Minds
02-07-2013, 09:30 AM
Actually, the more I get to know MMOs (even though my only hands-on experience is in DDO), the more I'm convinced MMOs should do away with classes. Every skill/ability/whatever should be available to every "class", and the player would decide what to choose.
Champions Online did a pretty decent job at that, baring the stealth.

Raiderone
02-07-2013, 09:35 AM
From what I've heard from players Alpha testing it, was that combat was very basic.

and that NWN plays more like WOW!

I have no interest in NWN.

Uska
02-07-2013, 09:46 AM
Champions Online did a pretty decent job at that, baring the stealth.

As a 30 year player of champions(pnp game) the online game reminded me zero of champions. I thank the evil that is owner of hero games for allowing that.

Missing_Minds
02-07-2013, 10:19 AM
As a 30 year player of champions(pnp game) the online game reminded me zero of champions. I thank the evil that is owner of hero games for allowing that.
Yeap. You take everything you knew of the PnP version and... well given what they did, even "throwing it out the window" would have been nice. But it would be breaking forum regulations to state what they did to it.

But as a video game, it really wasn't that bad... AFTER they got rid of Bill and Jack having any influence on the game, and got someone utterly different at the head for it. Damn those two screwed it hard core. When I left, (a few months after PW influences were deff being seen) the game was pretty solid, and I was having a lot of fun there. But talk about nothing to do once you cap out.

Chai
02-07-2013, 06:01 PM
There are pros and cons of NWN, and many people whose posts Ive read either focused on one or the other. Stepping back and looking at the big picture, I see alot of people posting on the DDO boards complaining about stuff that doesnt exist here, but exists in NWO. Many of them will be satisfied with that game.

For people who want more advanced character building and roles that are not focused to the class, DDO will be a more satisfying game experience.

For people who want more hard encoded roles for each class, with forced cooperation and character class balancing, NWO will provide the more satisfying game experience.

The 200 dollar founder pack is completely optional. I find it odd that many people who post on these boards that other players shouldnt be concerned with how they spend their money, are nocking a game for having what basically ammounts to a fluff pack for sale. Apparently using drizzt as a marketing tool is bad....actually no its not since those novels were all best sellers. Where is your "dont like it dont buy it" god now? :p

die
02-07-2013, 06:49 PM
A new press release hour long beta game play nice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0E6Yw-M1YY
i see some things i like and some i dont.

Missing_Minds
02-07-2013, 07:35 PM
Where is your "dont like it dont buy it" god now? :p
That one? Same place its always been. At the bank cashing checks. Duh.

Sonos
02-07-2013, 08:20 PM
The 200 dollar founder pack is completely optional. I find it odd that many people who post on these boards that other players shouldnt be concerned with how they spend their money, are nocking a game for having what basically ammounts to a fluff pack for sale. Apparently using drizzt as a marketing tool is bad....actually no its not since those novels were all best sellers. Where is your "dont like it dont buy it" god now? :p


Spending $200 on a game sight unseen is =/= to spending $20-$140 on a game one has played for more than a year to several years. Nuanced thinking, it's perfectly acceptable and quite human. What you confuse with hypocrisy is just conflation on your part. One view does not necessarily apply to all situations.

I would be tempted a little more if it was much less than $200. I love crazy bundles but it's a little steep for my palate to plunk down at once. Will you buy me one Chai? kthxbai :D

Oh and to be fair to the Control Wizard video, it was a lower level wiz, lower level wizzes in DDO are not that much more impressive. Would be hilarious if the Wizard video at low levels for DDO was a wizard with a Carnifex :P

Phemt81
02-07-2013, 08:43 PM
Why I like DDO over most stuff out there and upcoming:

Do not want:

http://vividgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/golden-axe-2.jpg

You don't want to play a game considered a classic, ok.

Sonos
02-07-2013, 11:16 PM
You don't want to play a game considered a classic, ok.

I played Golden Axe many a times back in the day. But yeah the answer would be no.

The point that was missed and I can't blame you, although a few got it, is that DDO is awesome for it's ability to customize and multi-class, not just hand you a homogenized character. I'm not saying there is no customization in NWO, I'm certain that it does have some, but I was accentuating one of DDO's greatest qualities.\\\

Nice try though.

Postumus
02-08-2013, 12:13 AM
The 200 dollar founder pack is completely optional. I find it odd that many people who post on these boards that other players shouldnt be concerned with how they spend their money, are nocking a game for having what basically ammounts to a fluff pack for sale. Apparently using drizzt as a marketing tool is bad....actually no its not since those novels were all best sellers. Where is your "dont like it dont buy it" god now? :p


I think in your haste to point out hypocrisy in others, you've completely missed the point why the optional $200 pack is being lambasted by the posters in this thread.


Regarding NWO: I found the existence of Astral Shards as in game currency interesting. The lead designer in one of the videos mentioned how astral shards would be the only currency players could use to purchase items from the in game auction house. Can these shards be purchased with real money from NWO as they can from DDO?

---- EDIT: why yes they can.

You get 750k astral shards for purchasing the Founder's Pack. Since astral shards are the only way to purchase items in the auction house, how is this not pay-to-win on an equal (or worse) scale than anything Turbine has done?

Here is the add for the pack explaining what you get. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y73foSseYh4)

Missing_Minds
02-08-2013, 12:53 AM
Regarding NWO: I found the existence of Astral Shards as in game currency interesting. The lead designer in one of the videos mentioned how astral shards would be the only currency players could use to purchase items from the in game auction house. Can these shards be purchased with real money from NWO as they can from DDO?

---- EDIT: why yes they can.
And when you run out of that, there is Zen.
https://billing.perfectworld.com/

BoBach
02-08-2013, 02:10 AM
Its only rude to sell a collectors edition for 200 bucks. From the first day its pay to win (remember all the threads about complaining here when only a single tome is sold in store).

Furthermore the different classes are all the same with different graphics. No cooperative play, where every class has its own task in a quest ...

Regards Bo
PS.: How the hell can they mess up a good storyline and such a huge development budget in this way ...

Postumus
02-08-2013, 02:29 AM
My favorite part so far is having to pay to be guaranteed to participate in beta testing. Games have come a long way from the days when they'd compensate you for testing their product; now you have to pay them! Nice!

Chai
02-08-2013, 07:00 AM
My favorite part so far is having to pay to be guaranteed to participate in beta testing. Games have come a long way from the days when they'd compensate you for testing their product; now you have to pay them! Nice!

Have to buy a founder pack to be guaranteed entrance into the 3 beta weekends. There have been alot of people picked for beta that did not pay.

Arnhelm
02-08-2013, 10:17 AM
...PS.: How the hell can they mess up a good storyline and such a huge development budget in this way ...
Humans can mess up anything, given enough time.

Karavek
02-08-2013, 11:56 AM
personally I am actually becoming more hopeful the more I see about NWO. You see I have played alot of cryptics early works, and can agree with the comment they have had varied success in the industry. They built the foundation for city of heroes which went on to become impo the best MMO ever made for a casual pug experience where being able to easily get along with and interact with others from around the world rarely proved the head ache we often get here in DDO.

They went on to build champions, which holds the title of the first true free form character building MMO, imo wrongfully as DDO thanks to multi classing and the D20 system allows for incredibly flexible characters, which sadly only breeds conflict with the team specialists and creates the heated debates of should clerics be healers, and should everyone be BYOH when its always an option one can choose to build in with minimal impact on an end game build. The one advantage to a game with hard definitions for classes and roles is avoiding all that social grief.

STO though some claim is P2W, from my chats with friends who have given it a chance, even if they didnt stick with it, it was more due to cryptic breaking more often then fixing popular features like the foundry system. Hopefully the price they payed with its beta debut on STO will lead to a better experience for those on NWO.

The fact is the classes do indeed look fun to play, and each with just enough flavor and personal style to generate the altaholic stable of characters I and many others on CoH enjoyed. Likewise the classes all seem capable of being solo centric through build choices, letting them be taken abit out of the box for those needing to fit a more personal play style.

The fact things like mounts and useful companions exist for all players will be a big plus as its easy income through a e store, and further customization in how one appears and can play.

My own biggest pondering is the RP aspect of the game, COH was lore rich and easy to become a part of the world and had strong social hubs like pocket D. Champions has several clubs to socialize in as well.

Im guessing the moonstone lounge and its vip area are meant to be that for NWO and if so is a good sign, as its true most anti RP players in ftp games are total ftp. Those who immerse themselves in their characters and the world they play in usually are happy to invest. So I hope alot of things of interest to RPers like emotes and appearance customization are not neglected. Also a character bio page which gets largely ignored in DDO was used often in CoH and CO and would be nice to see return in NWO.

Overall although I dont know if it will be a direct death blow to DDO, I do see alot of reasons to give NWO a chance and more of my money then turbine has seen since MOTU got my 80+

Missing_Minds
02-08-2013, 12:10 PM
The fact things like mounts and useful companions exist for all players will be a big plus as its easy income through a e store, and further customization in how one appears and can play.

My own biggest pondering is the RP aspect of the game, COH was lore rich and easy to become a part of the world and had strong social hubs like pocket D. Champions has several clubs to socialize in as well.
Mounts: One comment: Grab bags.

RP social pockets of Champions: Several? Besides Club Caprie, the randomness of the city hub (which rp there was and was not sporadic), and the possible fashion stage area in the level up region.... Where are these several pockets you are talking? What did they actually add in further?

Lothayr
02-08-2013, 08:59 PM
Bought the founders pack. Played about 5 hours. Turned it off. Wrote a long winded flame on their forum about it being Champions Online with Elves, Dwarves and Teiflings. Will never play again.

Horrorscope
02-08-2013, 09:19 PM
Bought the founders pack. Played about 5 hours. Turned it off. Wrote a long winded flame on their forum about it being Champions Online with Elves, Dwarves and Teiflings. Will never play again.

Can you link the thread? And are you interested in selling your pack?

Lothayr
02-08-2013, 09:52 PM
Can you link the thread? And are you interested in selling your pack?

Its in the beta forum. Yes I would sell my founder pack but I don't see how that's possible as its tied to my other PWI/cryptic accounts. But the only game I somewhat liked of theirs was STO. If you know a way, send a PM.

Missing_Minds
02-08-2013, 10:01 PM
it being Champions Online with Elves, Dwarves and Teiflings.

I didn't even play it, and I was telling people that.

Lothayr
02-08-2013, 10:21 PM
I didn't even play it, and I was telling people that.

Had I read what you wrote before hand, I still would have tried it out. I wouldn't have bought their founder BS though. I should have knew better. I still feel bad about not telling people about how bad SWTOR was because of the NDA. Thankfully Founders aren't bound to the NDA for Neverwinter so I'm posting how bad it is everywhere I can.

Postumus
02-08-2013, 10:32 PM
Have to buy a founder pack to be guaranteed entrance into the 3 beta weekends.



LOL, didn't I just write that?




There have been alot of people picked for beta that did not pay.


"A lot?" Really? Who? None of the folks in this forum who have tried to get in using the Founder's Friend key have been able to do so. I don't see any reviews in this forum from people who haven't purchased a founder's package. And the forums dedicated to Neverwinter Online are already chock full of angry people who have tried and failed to get into the beta using any of the free methods.


The common experience reported online so far completely contradicts your claim. Can you link to anyone's review who has been able to get in for free who isn't writing/recording a review for an online site?

Postumus
02-08-2013, 10:45 PM
personally I am actually becoming more hopeful the more I see about NWO. You see I have played alot of cryptics early works, and can agree with the comment they have had varied success in the industry. They built the foundation for city of heroes which went on to become impo the best MMO ever made for a casual pug experience where being able to easily get along with and interact with others from around the world rarely proved the head ache we often get here in DDO.


So when can we look forward to your 'Devoted Cleric Tied to a Chair' review of Neverwinter Online? From the frustration you displayed over other DDO players actually expecting healing and support from clerics in your original Cleric Tied to a Chair (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391749&highlight=cleric+tied+chair) post, I can't imagine you will enjoy playing a class described as "Devoted Cleric – Devout healer, committed to preventing injury, restoring health, and a faith in the divine."

From all the videos I've seen posted to date there doesn't appear to be too many other sources of party healing, so I don't think BYOH groups will be too popular there.

dragonhighlord1
02-08-2013, 10:46 PM
So far 6 hrs into beta, first and foremost, they have gms that know the game, know the content and actually let them help instead of "create a ticket".

The release stuff in Druids update on DDO, after all the reports from Lammania gave the devs quite a few issues that were not fixed for live. This is first closed beta and runs better then quite a few of the Live Updates do here. The calls made to customer service seem to be handled much better also with 5 calls made, everytime answered by a player that knew the game compared to Turbine, who have been nice, but have no idea what DDO is yet alone stuff like I just got back to 20 on a TR and no epic destiny xp was left", insert company line "create a ticket"

Game play itself, hard to tell at such a low level, played a cleric, rogue, and warrior for a bit, seem to like the shadow dance of the rogue as best skill /feat so far. Has built in voice chat, where you can control volume or even squelch individual party members. Party porting to quest entrances with out having to buy (bracelet of friends) some store item.

Best/favorite part of the game is the ability to make/design your own quest and post them right in the public areas for others as well as run quest made by others, in theory putting and end to 100th shroud, and the same quest over and over and over.

It has a Baldurs Gate feel when traveling and many areas are open world instances (not sure of correct terminology)
but you can be running a quest and run into others players and get help or join them.

Being a long time loyal veteran to DDO, I hope a little competition makes them stronger and more player friendly.

If you have any NW questions, send a pm and I will try and get back to you as soon as possible. You can still get into beta this weekend, check out this video, of game play and forge(make your own quest)
http://www.twitch.tv/mmorpgcom/b/364703290

Lothayr
02-08-2013, 10:47 PM
link: http://nw.perfectworld.com/about/faq It's the second to the last question. there was a better page , but its lost to me.


Q: I did not purchase a Founder's Pack, but I have a beta key. When do I get into beta?

You will get access to either Beta Weekend 2 or Beta Weekend 3. You will be notified in advance via email when it's your turn to participate in beta testing. More details about this to come on Neverwinter's official website and forum.

So its one or the other of the last 2 beta weekends.

dragonhighlord1
02-08-2013, 10:59 PM
LOL, didn't I just write that?





"A lot?" Really? Who? None of the folks in this forum who have tried to get in using the Founder's Friend key have been able to do so. I don't see any reviews in this forum from people who haven't purchased a founder's package. And the forums dedicated to Neverwinter Online are already chock full of angry people who have tried and failed to get into the beta using any of the free methods.


The common experience reported online so far completely contradicts your claim. Can you link to anyone's review who has been able to get in for free who isn't writing/recording a review for an online site?

I am def not writing a review, and 3 of us are playing with keys from guildies who sent us "friends keys"

The angry people that are posting, bought/did/liked/ something that was promised to give them a beta invite. Keyword being "A" beta and not "all" beta, and understand the frustration, that being said, Its the very much the same type of people frustrated with Turbine/WB for many many of the ways to make money as both games are Free to Play.

The subscription of 10 to 15 a month will all but be extinct unless its and additional option as the business side has figured out the best way to make money is free to play with many many pay to win items for instance see this weeks sale +4 stat tomes here at DDO.

Postumus
02-08-2013, 11:04 PM
link: http://nw.perfectworld.com/about/faq It's the second to the last question. there was a better page , but its lost to me.


Q: I did not purchase a Founder's Pack, but I have a beta key. When do I get into beta?

You will get access to either Beta Weekend 2 or Beta Weekend 3. You will be notified in advance via email when it's your turn to participate in beta testing. More details about this to come on Neverwinter's official website and forum.

So its one or the other of the last 2 beta weekends.

Everything I see in print, including what is on their site refer to non-purchasers of a founder's pack to get 'a chance' to participate in one of the beta weekends. I saw a splash screen in one video that indicated the free to players would have their 'chance' to play beta on the third weekend March 22nd.

Chai claims 'a lot' of free to play people can/have accessed the beta, but everything I've can find to date contradicts this. So far I'm only finding beta posts from people who paid for a founder's pack and vitriolic anger posts from people who didn't and can't get into beta.

Postumus
02-08-2013, 11:07 PM
I am def not writing a review, and 3 of us are playing with keys from guildies who sent us "friends keys"



So you have actually played the beta using a friend's key? Or are you planning to play the beta using a friends key? So far there have been two posts in just the DDO forums about people having problems getting into beta with the keys. Can you confirm they work for you?

Missing_Minds
02-08-2013, 11:19 PM
So far 6 hrs into beta, first and foremost, they have gms that know the game, know the content and actually let them help instead of "create a ticket".
I've never had to call in on the phone, let alone a GM for help because of issues. Normally it was obviously so screwed up the GM (and known issues on the forums, for months to years. Sound familiar?) only answer is to start over.

They probably ramped up quality GMs for this beta testing because they want good reports to come in to fix things. Give the game 6 months after release and then say if the GM support is good or not.

dragonhighlord1
02-09-2013, 12:18 AM
So you have actually played the beta using a friend's key? Or are you planning to play the beta using a friends key? So far there have been two posts in just the DDO forums about people having problems getting into beta with the keys. Can you confirm they work for you?

100% work for all of us.

Sonos
02-09-2013, 12:56 AM
Its in the beta forum. Yes I would sell my founder pack but I don't see how that's possible as its tied to my other PWI/cryptic accounts. But the only game I somewhat liked of theirs was STO. If you know a way, send a PM.

Has STO improved? I probably put some 40-60 hours into it and all of the instances started to resemble each other, like a pattern. It was a lot of fun at first but again, some of the away team stuff started to feel the same.

Uska
02-09-2013, 01:50 AM
personally I am actually becoming more hopeful the more I see about NWO. You see I have played alot of cryptics early works, and can agree with the comment they have had varied success in the industry. They built the foundation for city of heroes which went on to become impo the best MMO ever made for a casual pug experience where being able to easily get along with and interact with others from around the world rarely proved the head ache we often get here in DDO.

They went on to build champions, which holds the title of the first true free form character building MMO, imo wrongfully as DDO thanks to multi classing and the D20 system allows for incredibly flexible characters, which sadly only breeds conflict with the team specialists and creates the heated debates of should clerics be healers, and should everyone be BYOH when its always an option one can choose to build in with minimal impact on an end game build. The one advantage to a game with hard definitions for classes and roles is avoiding all that social grief.

STO though some claim is P2W, from my chats with friends who have given it a chance, even if they didnt stick with it, it was more due to cryptic breaking more often then fixing popular features like the foundry system. Hopefully the price they payed with its beta debut on STO will lead to a better experience for those on NWO.

The fact is the classes do indeed look fun to play, and each with just enough flavor and personal style to generate the altaholic stable of characters I and many others on CoH enjoyed. Likewise the classes all seem capable of being solo centric through build choices, letting them be taken abit out of the box for those needing to fit a more personal play style.

The fact things like mounts and useful companions exist for all players will be a big plus as its easy income through a e store, and further customization in how one appears and can play.

My own biggest pondering is the RP aspect of the game, COH was lore rich and easy to become a part of the world and had strong social hubs like pocket D. Champions has several clubs to socialize in as well.

Im guessing the moonstone lounge and its vip area are meant to be that for NWO and if so is a good sign, as its true most anti RP players in ftp games are total ftp. Those who immerse themselves in their characters and the world they play in usually are happy to invest. So I hope alot of things of interest to RPers like emotes and appearance customization are not neglected. Also a character bio page which gets largely ignored in DDO was used often in CoH and CO and would be nice to see return in NWO.

Overall although I dont know if it will be a direct death blow to DDO, I do see alot of reasons to give NWO a chance and more of my money then turbine has seen since MOTU got my 80+



Sorry SWG had free form character building long before anyone else well it did before nge and champs bit big time and followed the pnp game it was based on absolutely not! I am the opposite of you the more I hear the less I like when I hear founder who spent 200 bucks wants to never play again I take that as a very very bad sign

Horrorscope
02-09-2013, 11:33 AM
Sorry SWG had free form character building long before anyone else well it did before nge and champs bit big time and followed the pnp game it was based on absolutely not! I am the opposite of you the more I hear the less I like when I hear founder who spent 200 bucks wants to never play again I take that as a very very bad sign

Did they spend $200 or $60, both are Founders and get you in the game. And to some $200 is like $2's, depends on how deep their pockets are. Plus no matter what, it's all opinion.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-09-2013, 12:17 PM
There's a whole lot of guesswork and hearsay at play in this thread.

Here's my summary:

Graphics and storyline/lore go to Neverwinter. There is no competition.

Combat is a tossup. Both are fun. DDO gets a nod here in its current state. However, many will find Neverwinter's combat mechanism extremely fun. D&D purists will find both DDO (especially with recent changes to-hit and ac changes) and Neverwinter not like "the old days".

Character creation/development edges to DDO, however, the fact that epic destinies trivialize much of what you did to level 20 ... the end result does not feel all that different.

Engine. Big advantage to Neverwinter. Offers Cryptic and users almost unlimited potential to add new content in the future.

The last three details are very important, and Turbine has not helped itself in 2012 in my opinion. I've seen enough to love both games, but much of the same reasons.

At this point, the character creation at this point ensures I'll always find DDO as my favorite of the two but its by a very very small margin, because Neverwinter comes close enough to the combat bar for me, and the engine makes DDO feel like an aging game for the first time in my 6+ years playing. And it just hit beta.

Jaid314
02-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Character creation/development edges to DDO, however, the fact that epic destinies trivialize much of what you did to level 20 ... the end result does not feel all that different.

yes, i'm sure the massive number of people with draconic incarnation barbarians would agree completely with you on how unimportant what they did from 1-20 was... i'm sure energy burst is totally working for them.

there is a fair amount of options in terms of ways to be effective in epic destinies depending on where your heroic levels put you.

but it's complete and utter nonsense to think that choices from 1-20 are unimportant and have no effect.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-09-2013, 05:48 PM
yes, i'm sure the massive number of people with draconic incarnation barbarians would agree completely with you on how unimportant what they did from 1-20 was... i'm sure energy burst is totally working for them.

there is a fair amount of options in terms of ways to be effective in epic destinies depending on where your heroic levels put you.

but it's complete and utter nonsense to think that choices from 1-20 are unimportant and have no effect.

I am not arguing that choices made at levels 1-20 have no effect, it is my opinion they simply have less effect on many toons. Epic destinies have without question trivialized/overshadowed much of what we now know are heroic levels. Do you think it really matters if you take 16 vs 18 str at creation? There still PLENTY of variety left in DDO character creation, but beginning stats mean less and less nowadays, especially when you can tack on +5 in the blink of an eye (this is why Turbine's always nerfing buffs, gear, difficulty etc). Gear means less and less now, with almost freebie commendation loot in Estar granting better stats than most gear in game ever did. With all thats broken in DDO right now, in addition to dummying down the game (which will happen again when the new enhancement ui debuts), with the changing of to-hit/ac, the game continues to is run, not walk away from D&D 3.5 rules. These elements make DDO more vulnerable to today's MMO challengers, including (and especially) Neverwinter. (Neverwinter's weakness is in its lack of individuality/customization of meaningful stats at creation/leveling, the addition of EDs actually lessen the importance of stats and put DDO on a much more level playing field with Neverwinter in my opinion.)

Don't get me wrong, I still find DDO tons of fun, the EDs are fun as is the easy to get loots. DDO's big edge is that you can still create a toon that feels like YOUR toon. I have had little trouble taking advantage of the ED choices personally, and helping others build engaging toons. DDO still = my favorite game.

But after playing a D&D online game with a much newer engine with far less lag (including spells and animation effects that would be impossible in DDO without game breaking lag), with much more lore that is 100% accurate and actually tells a story, with UGC indoor and outdoor instanced questing popping up on a regular basis (due to users who want to share their stories in a very old school pnp way), with combat that is a ton of fun (albeit still a bit clunky due to recent addition of rooting which has to go bye bye), I have no doubt that Neverwinter will arise at launch (as opposed to its current alpha state) as a serious competitor to DDO, and a great alternative (potentially) to some who ignore that ****-talking and actually try the game for themselves.

In no way is it dooom for DDO, our favorite game will be around for many years to come, but Neverwinter will make a major, major dent. Hopefully, the new competition will help the developers of both games create better content down the road, and make both playerbases welcome the good both games have done for each other!

Missing_Minds
02-09-2013, 06:08 PM
I am not arguing that choices made at levels 1-20 have no effect, it is my opinion they simply have less effect on many toons.
While it could, in actual practice, you will find that people choose EDs that made what they did in the first 20 levels even stronger.
Not make them all wacked out in the water like you were describing. The only time a Barb may really be in Draconic is when they are working up fate points. Beyond that, seriously... "Guys, this one is hard. Get in your Primary destinies please." I've lost track how often I've heard that.

And what trivializes quests even more is not the EDs, but meta-knowledge of the quests.

Seriously, to say that the ED trivializes the heroic choices with examples of barbarians staying in draconic works only in "what if" theories.

And yes, the to-hit/AC race is saddening, but what did you and they expect in a Monty Haul video game where there is no active DM to help keep things in check? All that happened is it turned it more MMO ish without the standard MMO lvl issues of "the mob is too high. you are GOING to DIE." even if you do use really good tactics.

And sure, there is a lot of hersay. I'm one of them, I've never denyed that. But my own statements are backed up by first hand experience with Cryptic from beta of CO to a few months after they were bought by PW. Add to that videos posted and how developers answered... Hate to say it but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be right about the game. The only way I will know, myself, for fact, if I was right or not is to actually play it. Something I have no intention of doing.


But after playing a D&D online game with a much newer engine with far less lag (including spells and animation effects that would be impossible in DDO without game breaking lag), with much more lore that is 100% accurate and actually tells a story,
*busts out laughing* Wait till you start dealing with actual loads.
As for story... talk about red herrings. All that statement is, is a shout out to the fans of FR while claiming (wrongfully) that there is no story in DDO.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-09-2013, 06:26 PM
snip

The DDO story sucks Missing. Sorry man. How many people that play this game do you actually think even realize there IS a backstory (as capricious as it is)? In Neverwinter, there is a strong story that flows with the quest lines, if you care to follow along. In DDO, the little story snippets stay in the quest. In Neverwinter, the story is not only more detailed and flows better, its in your journal that you can read anytime... long after you leave the quest. There is no competition, lore will go to Neverwinter Missing, I'm sorry.

As for your ED points, sure, I agree with most of them. There are more than one way to look at their benefits. They breathed life into many toons that were shelved or not finely tuned. I also think there were negatives that arose (lets not bring up the ritual to get thru destinies you have no interest in, to get to the destinies you do), and one of them is that EDs feel like powers in 4e in the way implemented by Cryptic. That's what puts them more on a level playing field than was necessary. (BTW the barbarian ED comment wasnt mine, it was Jaid's, it really doesn't have much to do with similarities between DDO and Neverwinter I was making...)

As for your hearsay, it is what it is. There's no right and wrong here, its all personal taste. I've played them both. DDO is my game. But its not my only one.

What we are doing in our guild now, is gauging interest in both DDO and NWO. There's clearly a demand for both games. Furthermore, there is no bickering over which game is "better". We are allowing everyone to draw their own conclusions. We've had some interested in Neverwinter fall in love with DDO (one is currently posting in this very thread) and we have some digging Neverwinter. The end result for our guild is a very bright one. Which game they choose to play, one or the other, or both, is completely up to them.

Missing_Minds
02-09-2013, 07:33 PM
How many people that play this game do you actually think even realize there IS a backstory (as capricious as it is)?
The same will be said of NWO as it will be comprised of gamers, not just Realm fans.

Well I take that back. If they streamline it such that you must do A, must do B, must do C as you grow in character levels, eventually the players will be able to barf out from being absolutely nauseated of the same thing over and over and over. Ye old issue of any standard MMO. And I have no idea how they are handling that aspect of the game.

Of course the turn about of this is also you are stating that the lore in NWO is going to be force fed down the players throats with no option of ignoring it or not? Not everyone plays a game for "lore" after all.

Uska
02-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Did they spend $200 or $60, both are Founders and get you in the game. And to some $200 is like $2's, depends on how deep their pockets are. Plus no matter what, it's all opinion.

I wasnt talking about anything but the part about free form character building and the collectors editon for SWG was like 60 bucks

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-09-2013, 08:41 PM
Of course the turn about of this is also you are stating that the lore in NWO is going to be force fed down the players throats with no option of ignoring it or not? Not everyone plays a game for "lore" after all.

I didn't state that Missing. I said there is a strong story that flows with the quest lines, if you care to follow along. You can stop and read every lore item you find (not bad for solo play and parties that find value in such play.), read your journal later - after the quest, or completely ignore it. In UGC, the lore items can be key, and in fact some user designed quests may require you to read NPC chat or lore items in order to finish a quest objective. I've found this brings an old D&D rpg or pnp feel, in a very cool way that doesn't detract from the combat at hand but adds "color" to it. You can seek out or ignore such authors. Its really up to the player.

dunklezhan
02-10-2013, 07:36 AM
As for story... talk about red herrings. All that statement is, is a shout out to the fans of FR while claiming (wrongfully) that there is no story in DDO.


It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"

Yet, several years later, I can still tell you all about certain plot lines in WoW. WoW for goodness sake!

When your players don't know your story, your story does not exist.

I'm looking forward to NW in as much as I'm desperate to get some RP back in my life and it simply doesn't exist in any meaningful way in DDO. There are no mechanisms which really support it, even in terms of costume customisation (which I never really went for anyway, my point is that many RPers really do care about this, so if it's missing or not extensive, you put chunks of that community off), and the story isn't in your face enough to want to be 'part' of it beyond getting ma lewts and XP. There are tiny tiny pockets of RP hidden away in some guilds on some servers and that's it. Yet DDO is based on the original RPG! I've simply never been able to fathom that and it was a major disappointment to me when I started playing. I would've quit about 6 months in but I found a decent guild who made the lack of RP bearable for me, even though they don't RP themselves.

Also I have to tell you - TERA online offers more RP potential than DDO, and it's more grindy than WoW! I've played Tera on and off for the last few weeks and I understand more about the plot there than here!

NW, with the foundry system and a number of other things I'm seeing, seems to be offering a lot more in the way of immersion. On that basis alone I'm looking forward to it.

Of course, if the gameplay choices are limited or boring then that will still kill the game for me.

I doubt I'll make NW my main game. But I can certainly see me and a few guildies hopping over there, creating our own guild and using it for a distraction. And if I find an RP group over there you might never see me back here.


EDIT: I need to say this: recent updates and releases have much improved the story line visibility in DDO. I actually do understand the plot of the expansion. This is probably helped by the fact that there are lots of audio clips to go with it, so you don't have to try to speed read NPC text while in combat, or the quest text when everyone else is already in and underway. If they went back and did a pass on gianthold, tempest spine, waterworks, STK etc and brought in some of the techniques they've done for Eveningstar, I think things would be much, much improved.


EDIT EDIT: you could be forgiven for reading the above and thinking I'm not happy with DDO. I am. It's the best MMO I've ever played, gameplay/character generation wise. I just think it needs a stronger presentation of the story and more RP-friendly features (which I've provided examples of by way of many many suggestion threads over the years, I'm not repeating it all again here). I've also been playing this now for 3.5 years (+/- a couple of months) which is about as long as I played WoW for. Difference is here that I'm starting to keep my eye out for new games as DDO is starting to hit the end of it's shelf life for me. Whereas with WoW for the last six months I was playing out of habit, I wasn't having any fun at all apart from the RP. That is not the case in DDO. I started a new 1st life toon just yesterday and was still having a blast running through Korthos for the nth time, as I decided to do it on elite right out the gate, without any twinking whatsoever on a class I've never played before and don't understand very well (FVS). Just ran with what I looted or was rewarded. Assumed that I'd be fine with all my experience, forgot the last few times i hit korthos I'd twinked myself silly, and as a result got my ass handed to me at least twice before I left the island. I still haven't got a clue what I'm going to do with this supposed 'evoker' FvS.... but loads of fun, still :)


EDIT EDIT EDIT: also, while I said I'm looking forward to NW to get some RP back in my life, I forgot to say how sad that makes me. Eberron is a MUCH more interesting world than Faerun. I'd much rather be on the talenta plains by a fireside with my guildies, having an impromptu party surrounded by a bunch of nutty dinosaur riding halflings, or up in the demon wastes hiding in a crevasse while we wait for a raid than at an inn on the Sword Coast. I would SO rather DDO expanded into Khorvaire than that it had ever set foot in Faerun, I just can't put it into words. I'm not angry or raging about that, it just makes me sad.

ddonoobgamer
02-10-2013, 05:02 PM
However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"


As someone who has no previous D&D background, I didn't even know there was a main plot in the game. :) I always thought the game was a collection of separate packs each with their own individual plots. The only pack who's plot I would describe as something to do with dragons and giants is Gianthold.

I don't have any plans to leave DDO in the foreseeable future, but I intend to try out Neverwinter Online when it comes out. They just started their first Beta weekend right now and here is an early review from someone who actually tried it out :
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?46951-Runo-s-Hands-on-Preview-of-Neverwinter-(Beta)-Screenshot-Heavy

I'm pretty interested in the Foundry myself. Not only for playing other people's creations, but also in getting to make my own creations as well. (Speaking not as a PnP type, but just as a gamer.)

Kawai
02-10-2013, 05:59 PM
...As someone who has no previous D&D background, I didn't even know there was a main plot in the game. :) I always thought the game was a collection of separate packs each with their own individual plots. The only pack who's plot I would describe as something to do with dragons and giants is Gianthold...

agree in full. :p

to me, the entire story in ddo is a bunch of annoying txt boxes that i have to clicky through to accept a quest. absolutely nothing more than that.

Estar at least has some vocal narration. but i still haven't been interested enough to absorb anything. Usually too busy trying to steer through the paragraph of FONT that is embedded the middle of the screen now. (why cant we turn that off?) :mad:

die
02-10-2013, 06:15 PM
I for one have been waiting for nwo for along time.

I have been watching alot of live steaming of the beta game play and i love alot of what i see. what is killing me about DDO now is i cant stand running the quests any more .

im in GH now on one of my many TR's and i just log in and look at what i need too do and just log off i cant stand this same old **** any more tr smae quest over and over frankly im starting too question my sanity really who plays the same **** year after year i think im freakin crazy . So come on Never winter!!

LMAO and not too mentionr waiting for a new update which i still love. It's freakin GH re-hash OH &^^%$. really?i know we have a new raid. but yea i think my time is done here weather they're is a nwo or not palying the same &^%^ over and 0ver.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 06:27 PM
When your players don't know your story, your story does not exist.
I do not disagree with that. I know that puts it out of order to your post, but I wanted that stated up front.

TL;DR version: how does NWO present story/lore information such that it stays with a lazy player who doesn't give a care about reading anything, just wants loot and xp, and normally has their own music blaring drowning out all other sounds?



It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"


Lore to me is this history, in this case, the history of FR. Video gamers aren't going to know it nor give a darn about it. Does FR have a larger past to pull from than EB? Without a doubt, yes.

But the continued hype about lore this and lore that. I can only convert that into questing in the game and try to figure out what the heck he's actually meaning. If they have everything done up so it is all audio or something of that matter that you are FORCED to read or listen, then your players are being force fed the "lore". Unlike in DDO you can just go *click, click click, click, click...* "Ok, guys. What does the wiki say to do now?" Which they could have gotten if they actually bothered to read. So how does NWO present the material different such that the players don't have the option that they must pay attention?

He also went on about UGC (I'm assuming that stands for User Generated Content, because he never defines it, and I deal with too damn many acronyms at work go really want to think through what someone is meaning in depth.) and how they have... Correction. Could have "lore items". To me all that means is "quest item to be able to complete an objective." Because I sure a heck do not believe for an instant that we, players, will ever be given the ability to create weapons/gear using Foundry to be able to actually put in Lore items. As a Lore Item to me would be something a character could actually keep and use, such as a Blackstaff, Ring of Winter, Twinkle, etc. Now I'll grant you, there could be other lesser Lore items, such as religious masks or the like.

User generated content will help fight against wiki "click and skip" use all save for the most solid/fun quests out there because most people are goign to be too darn lazy to do one up for every quest. But I bet there will be some done up for any official content created.

Also a "lore journal" just what is it? If i want lore, I have a whole freaking library down stares to read from. It sounds more like an "quest completion, and things learned from it." log. I'm hesitant to call it an achievement given how CO listed those off.
Or did NWO just call everything "lore" and Les has just been using the terms NWO uses rather than generic descriptions to explain it better to those not playing beta?

Postumus
02-10-2013, 06:29 PM
It is very rare that I agree with LeslieWest, Missing, but on this he's got you. At least as far as this: there is a detailed, rich story in DDO. However, it is poorly delivered and I would guess that a tiny minority of people could tell you anything about the 'main' plot except "it's got something to do with dragons and giants and that there seems to be a separate plot about Devils or something?"




It took me about a year before I put together the main elements of the various plot lines. Sometimes it was an 'aha!' moment when I actually sat and watched the play in House P. Other times it was a 'now that's odd... HEYYY!' moment when I realized an NPC elf named Velah was speaking to someone about the House K vault of night.


Players aren't hit over the head with the story lines, nor spoon fed them, so unless one actually reads the quest text, pays attention to a lot of the NPC flavor text in quests, watches seemingly random events (like the play in House P), eaves drops on NPCs speaking 'throw away' lines to each other in public places and in quests, and actually recognizes that Velah and other major NPCs are running around all over the game, the average player will miss a great deal of the story.


Since the quest chains can be done in any order, new players are going to have even more difficulty identifying and connecting the threads that connect or carry through the various quest chains and keep popping up as references in side quests. Players don't see the forest because they are too focused on facerolling the trees.


I think TURBINE got better at displaying the narrative with the talking messages in Eveningstar, and I think some of the newer quests like Chronoscope and the Droam chains have enough DM narration and in game acting to give players a good idea of what is actually happening.


A LORE Journal (for lack of a better term) might be a good way to consolidate the various pieces of the puzzle for players to review as they experience key plot points they would have missed if their Lore Journal didn't update. It could work similarly to the MM and you might get small bonus xps or whatever by collecting all of them to complete the story within your journal.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 06:31 PM
Different question about NWO. CO has a mentoring system so that high level can play with low level and vice versa all over the place.

This is something DDO has been very dumb about not implementing. Did they stick in something like that into NWO or is it too early to tell? (I honestly hope they stick in something.)

And from what I read, it sounded like they put in a respecing system in early. About f'ing time. Cryptic really screwed the pooch on that in CO when it got released. It was one of the few things that the head actually listened to players about. They weren't going to have one for a while but too many complaints so they put one in. Granted it stunk but they had one eventually after launch.

Postumus
02-10-2013, 06:34 PM
Lore to me is this history, in this case, the history of FR. Video gamers aren't going to know it nor give a darn about it. Does FR have a larger past to pull from than EB? Without a doubt, yes.

But the continued hype about lore this and lore that. I can only convert that into questing in the game and try to figure out what the heck he's actually meaning. If they have everything done up so it is all audio or something of that matter that you are FORCED to read or listen, then your players are being force fed the "lore". Unlike in DDO you can just go *click, click click, click, click...* "Ok, guys. What does the wiki say to do now?" Which they could have gotten if they actually bothered to read. So how does NWO present the material different such that the players don't have the option that they must pay attention?

He also went on about UGC (I'm assuming that stands for User Generated Content, because he never defines it, and I deal with too damn many acronyms at work go really want to think through what someone is meaning in depth.) and how they have... Correction. Could have "lore items".


I'll have to wait to play the beta -er 'finished' neverwinter online when it comes out to see how different their delivery of the narrative is. I really have a really hard time believing user generated content will tie in consistently (or at all) to the official lore cryptic will be putting out when they release new content as it doesn't sound like anyone will be screening or overseeing the user created content before it is published.

FestusHood
02-10-2013, 07:04 PM
Basing this entirely on the video clips provided, the only term that seems to fit the combat that i see is 'arcade style'.
It really looks as though it might be suited to the old style setup of a joystick and 3 or 4 action buttons. Holding down a button to charge attacks? Those visual trailer effects from the weapon swings remind me of that game i think was called Devil May Cry? A fairly enjoyable arcade style game but nothing i would confuse with tactical or role playing styles of play. Again this is based entirely on my take of the video clips.

As far as storyline goes, i'm one of those people that skips through the text boxes as soon as possible, even the first time i encounter them. Not just this game, every game. Any storyline i am aware of has to be done with dm narration or just be inherently obvious. I like that the messages from elminster have an audio component, since i certainly won't actually bother to read them, but i can sort of pay attention to what he is saying as i move about the wilderness.

It strikes me that the apparent arcade style of NWO and reading text boxes are highly incompatible.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
Those visual trailer effects from the weapon swings remind me of that game i think was called Devil May Cry?
I always think back to Soul Edge/Caliber series.

And if they never stick flight into the game, an xbox controller would probably work fine for it. CO had xbox controller combatablity built in if i recall correctly.

Oh yeah, someone else mentioned role play. I do seriously hope that NWO has at least as much RP possibility built in as CO had. DDO has next to no support, which I always thought sad. Lotro has a modocom more, but that was only a "flag" that changed you from a "yellow" colored text name to a "white" to indicate you were an rper. That and chat bubbles. (optional you could turn on/off)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 07:31 PM
how does NWO present story/lore information

For someone seemingly so set against playing this game, you certainly ask a lot of questions. That's ok, I have answers, if you ask nicely...

I thought I had answered every question you've asked, apparently not to your level of approval. Funny, you complain that I've spoken too much about lore ("soapbox"..), yet you continue to ask for more details about it.

Ask me a specific question about NWO and I'll give you a specific answer, as long as you do it respectfully, and it doesn't break the NDA which I may still be bound by.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 07:40 PM
For someone seemingly so set against playing this game, you certainly ask a lot of questions.
Feel free to answer the questions I ask or not. Feel free to respond to my posts, or do not. I do not expect you to break NDA. Which I think after the fact that a video reviewer was walked through the game by developers has been posted, any question I've asked wouldn't be so blocked.

I am very dead set against playing the game. Others, however, are not. If you haven't noticed, you'll see I've asked questions that others have not yet asked. You would only be helping them make informed decisions. I do not see that as being a bad thing, do you?

mystafyi
02-10-2013, 07:45 PM
Ask me a specific question about NWO and I'll give you a specific answer, as long as you do it respectfully, and it doesn't break the NDA which I may still be bound by.

can you turn off that silly pixie dust trail?

are new classes to be added to the game going to be included in an upcoming expansion? the word expansion was said by a dev in TB video.

any word on upcoming epic destinies that also were mentioned by a dev?

what use is in game currency since their AH will use astral diamonds?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 07:50 PM
Basing this entirely on the video clips provided, the only term that seems to fit the combat that i see is 'arcade style'.

It strikes me that the apparent arcade style of NWO and reading text boxes are highly incompatible.

Yeah the combat definitely has a slightly more arcade feel than DDO, but the environment and engine allows powers that come surprisingly close to 4e books. Now algorithms are as different in NWO as they are in DDO. These games are based on 3.5 and 4e, they are nowhere close to carbon copy "ports".

Having just one button bar, its amazing how they fit all your attacks on it. Coming from DDO, real estate does feel tight, considering you have plenty of clickeys you can utilize, though not as many as in DDO (who uses near half of them here anyway?). Coming from someone who's used to 6-8 bars per toon, the one bar is tight, but amazingly does not detract from my play experience. No way I could say that on any character in DDO. So the UI is streamlined.

The combat is streamlined compared to DDO, but it doesnt feel limiting, on most classes. I will admit I am unhappy with the control wizard, as AOE CC is direly needed.

The difficulty levels in game have just been turned up, and I believe they need to adjust them up a few notches more.

The guild features and voice chat features are amazing... For example you can control the voice levels of each party member in your group... an brilliant feature that certainly would've gotten get some use in DDO.

So yeah, the game isnt perfect. What I do like is the devs are really listening to the alpha and beta teams... and they are fine tuning as they go. The beta is no marketing ploy, there will be plenty of time for the beta testers to make a difference, and they will indeed make an actual difference.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 08:04 PM
can you turn off that silly pixie dust trail?

Yes, of course. (Not bad for testing purposes - but for playing for fun, I agree with you - it's got to be off!) Now, I'll bet you cold hard cash we could have found use for it in DDO over the years, periodically. How many times have we heard "so where is that quest again?" :D


are new classes to be added to the game going to be included in an upcoming expansion? the word expansion was said by a dev in TB video.

No. That was poor wording on the devs part. They are working on a few classes now. I'm bound unfortunately on what they are, but I can say without question that they will be added in subsequent patches. There will be many more classes added in time. There will be no cost associated with playing them as long as you have available character slots. Naturally slots will cost, as they do in DDO.


any word on upcoming epic destinies that also were mentioned by a dev?

No info there. Think they are far off, but I could be mistaken.


what use is in game currency since their AH will use astral diamonds?

The value of their currency is still an anomaly. Until we can get a look at their finished cash store, we just don't know. From what I did see, there really is no pay to win in the store (heck there isnt even a NEED for p2w, plenty of good loot drops). There's vanity (dyes etc), and consumables (healing pots etc). No p2w gear. Not once have I played and said I wanted to use the store. Its a REAL f2p game... with out the content limits placed on DDO by Turbine. I think they'll make plenty of money with nonessential gear tho to keep things going indefinitely.

The only thing to watch will be if lock boxes (you buy a key to open) get instituted. So far they havent. This is a gambling mechanism which appears to be a mainstay in many current and future MMOs. I believe they will have a short future however, as governments are beginning to clamp down (sadly, not in America, yet). To a DDO player tho, it really doesn't affect us. You can completely ignore/dispose them. Like I said, good gear is not hard to find.

FestusHood
02-10-2013, 08:12 PM
I certainly have nothing against arcade style games, i've played and enjoyed many of them. Most of the rpg style games i have played have been distinctly not arcade style. Ddo seems to accomplish blending what i like most about both types well.

While ddo does have active combat, i don't think of it as being arcade style. Also the amount of depth behind the scenes of attacks helps a lot with that. The calculation of dc's and to hit and such, a myriad of different types of effects that can be used all make it too complicated (in a good way) to be a pure arcade style.

Character progression is generally what I liked most about more typical rpg style games, most of which were turn based. I like this to the point that in several of them, i never even bothered to fight the final boss fight, because it didn't have any purpose regarding character development, since it represented the end of the game. Several Final Fantasy games come to mind.

Are dc checks a part of the neverwinter system? Are there tactical abilities? Do individual character stats mean anything other than maybe how much damage attacks do? I can't tell from the videos.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 08:24 PM
Oh yeah, someone else mentioned role play. I do seriously hope that NWO has at least as much RP possibility built in as CO had. DDO has next to no support, which I always thought sad.

This will be a sore topic for some. NWO is as fast paced as DDO, if not faster. So, without an actual RP server, which wont happen, the RP community will have to adapt. The difference is there are a LOT of RP guilds popping up. Our guild may also look for ways to implement RP in accordance to creating our own Foundry content. Due to the "open architecture" technology as Cryptic has already implemented, there's a chance a bulk of the RP community will hang on and actually play Nevewinter, unlike in DDO where they flocked for the hills before headstart even began.

So in essence, its possible the RP community finds its nitch in Neverwinter, with certain workarounds of course.

Musouka
02-10-2013, 08:43 PM
I'm glad you're the one answering these, I've been playing this game for a while in the early testing stages.

If people are really doubting user made content, they really need to stop. Already there are about 40 different adventures that are more amazing and involved than some of the regular game content.

Also, I noticed a ton of potential for role play in the user made quests. Some of them force you to keep track of dialogue and notes you read, with zero tools pointing you where to go next. No quest objectives on the screen.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 08:44 PM
Are dc checks a part of the neverwinter system? Are there tactical abilities? Do individual character stats mean anything other than maybe how much damage attacks do? I can't tell from the videos.

Skill/DC checks are not part of the system, but I understand are currently in development. As of now you either have the ability or you do not. Each class currently gets one skill. Wizards get arcana, fighters get dungeoneering, clerics get religion, thieves get thievery. It's likely a "currently unknown class" gets nature. If you don't have a skill, you can either group up with somebody who does or use skill granting items in enabling the skill for three minutes. This is a brilliant workaround to the DDO UMD system, that allows for much easier solo play if thats what you are looking for.

The character stats are intertwined with much of your build (your powers). You have a main stat and two secondary stats. You roll stats much like you do in tabletop.

Tactical abilities are interwoven into some powers, and foot placement when using those powers is very important. It's not quite as click-happy as DDO is, yet there is definitely strategy involved. Really hard to explain here, as I love the DDO tactics system. Its different, yet still fun.

Healing is done very well. You can play with the years old trinity in place, or not. Your healer does more than heal. His offensive spells really pop, he can sit in the back and play healbot tho if that's your thing. But if you cant get a healer for a group, no problem. Instead of using resources like you do in DDO, there's an innate ability somewhere in every class to heal themselves.. maybe not as well as a cleric, but its in there. This is where picking your powers/dailies etc can come really in handy.

Jaid314
02-10-2013, 08:51 PM
I will admit I am unhappy with the control wizard, as AOE CC is direly needed.

to be fair, that's probably more of a problem with 4th edition than it is of cryptic.

when you or i think "control" we think, for example, of mass hold monster, or web.

when the people who made 4th edition D&D think "control", they think of fire ball, or snilloc's snowball swarm.

just to give an example of how bad crowd control as you or i would think of it is in pen and paper 4th edition, i'll use a classic: sleep.

now, sleep has been a staple spell in pen and paper at low levels for a rather long time. it's a very effective spell at level (not so much in DDO, but even then it's an AOE spell that locks down enemies until hit, and gives +50% damage to that hit).

in 4th edition, the wizard has to first hit the target's will defense, then they have to fail a saving throw (so about a 50% chance there, depending on modifiers... at level, you probably won't see more than maybe 40%-60% as being the range).

so if you were to somehow be able to guarantee a hit (which isn't really doable in 4th edition), you'd have a 50% chance of doing anything you care about. and they'd be guaranteed a full round worth of actions before they fall asleep (albeit they'd be moving slower).

4th edition just isn't built around actual crowd control. "controller" classes are really just aoe nukers with average attacks in an area. defender classes have more HP (and effectively healing amp as a result), and slightly better defenses, and average attacks. leaders have average attacks, and can heal. strikers have above-average attacks, but usually only against a single target.

the ones that usually actually deal status effects tend to be strikers, actually. maybe leaders too, to some extent.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 09:09 PM
Also, I noticed a ton of potential for role play in the user made quests. Some of them force you to keep track of dialogue and notes you read, with zero tools pointing you where to go next. No quest objectives on the screen.
Some players will like that, some will not. How often do you like to back track to figure out what you missed?

I'm not saying that is good, nor am I saying it is bad. It will, without a doubt be forced immersion which can be good or bad. It really depends on how it is done.

Musouka
02-10-2013, 09:12 PM
Some players will like that, some will not. How often do you like to back track to figure out what you missed?

I'm not saying that is good, nor am I saying it is bad. It will, without a doubt be forced immersion which can be good or bad. It really depends on how it is done.

They were user made... completely optional.

Missing_Minds
02-10-2013, 09:15 PM
This will be a sore topic for some. NWO is as fast paced as in DDO, if not faster. So, without an actual RP server, which wont happen, the RP community will have to adapt. The difference is there are a LOT of RP guilds popping up. Our guild may also look for ways to implement RP in accordance to creating our own Foundry content. Due to the "open architecture" technology as Cryptic has already implemented, there's a chance a bulk of the RP community will hang on and actually play Nevewinter, unlike in DDO where they flocked for the hills before headstart even began.

So in essence, its possible the RP community finds its nitch in Neverwinter, with certain workarounds of course.
If they... give players a lot of emotes and made it (in the back end) easy to stick more in, give players a few dedicated areas for rp (in CO they gave us a Night Club, fashion room for costume contests, and something else) and... I forget if they gave a way to signify RP or not.
For the most part, that should be just enough for the rp community. For Cryptic, this would be a "lessons learned" aspect from their own games. So here is hoping.

We can't get emotes easy in DDO because of a management decision early on that decided to ignore developer warnings. *sigh*

Musouka
02-10-2013, 09:20 PM
If they... give players a lot of emotes and made it (in the back end) easy to stick more in, give players a few dedicated areas for rp (in CO they gave us a Night Club, fashion room for costume contests, and something else) and... I forget if they gave a way to signify RP or not.
For the most part, that should be just enough for the rp community. For Cryptic, this would be a "lessons learned" aspect from their own games. So here is hoping.

We can't get emotes easy in DDO because of a management decision early on that decided to ignore developer warnings. *sigh*

I do know chat bubbles are in.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 09:21 PM
to be fair, that's probably more of a problem with 4th edition than it is of cryptic.

when you or i think "control" we think, for example, of mass hold monster, or web.

when the people who made 4th edition D&D think "control", they think of fire ball, or snilloc's snowball swarm.

just to give an example of how bad crowd control as you or i would think of it is in pen and paper 4th edition, i'll use a classic: sleep.

now, sleep has been a staple spell in pen and paper at low levels for a rather long time. it's a very effective spell at level (not so much in DDO, but even then it's an AOE spell that locks down enemies until hit, and gives +50% damage to that hit).

in 4th edition, the wizard has to first hit the target's will defense, then they have to fail a saving throw (so about a 50% chance there, depending on modifiers... at level, you probably won't see more than maybe 40%-60% as being the range).

so if you were to somehow be able to guarantee a hit (which isn't really doable in 4th edition), you'd have a 50% chance of doing anything you care about. and they'd be guaranteed a full round worth of actions before they fall asleep (albeit they'd be moving slower).

4th edition just isn't built around actual crowd control. "controller" classes are really just aoe nukers with average attacks in an area. defender classes have more HP (and effectively healing amp as a result), and slightly better defenses, and average attacks. leaders have average attacks, and can heal. strikers have above-average attacks, but usually only against a single target.

the ones that usually actually deal status effects tend to be strikers, actually. maybe leaders too, to some extent.

True but all kinds of CC spells do indeed exist in 4e, and as anyone who has played with me in game or has followed my Mississippee Queen builds on the forums here, I LOVE my crowd control! So you know I'm givin' them hell to institute a good CC system in Neverwinter for those who like to control the battlefield ;)

Getting specific, the enchantment and illusion schools have some groovy powers, and if we are granted even a hand full of these it may put the Neverwinter Control wizard over the DDO wizard class for a good number of folks that enjoy their CC:

http://i48.tinypic.com/8vqglk.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/23k2nio.png

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 09:27 PM
If they... give players a lot of emotes and made it (in the back end) easy to stick more in, give players a few dedicated areas for rp (in CO they gave us a Night Club, fashion room for costume contests, and something else) and... I forget if they gave a way to signify RP or not.
For the most part, that should be just enough for the rp community. For Cryptic, this would be a "lessons learned" aspect from their own games. So here is hoping.

We can't get emotes easy in DDO because of a management decision early on that decided to ignore developer warnings. *sigh*

Oh I forgot about emotes. Yes there are emotes and they are simple to put in. Hell you can just click em with a mouse. There's even an air guitar one that I approve of (and I actually play a real Les Paul '59 Sunburst - so that should tell ya something).

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 09:32 PM
We can't get emotes easy in DDO because of a management decision early on that decided to ignore developer warnings. *sigh*

Easy access to emotes (button click right in the chat window) and chat bubbles are cool for RP community or not. So if the rogue was to type "TRAP!" , everyone in party sees the text bubble right above his head onscreen, no need to look down at the text window. Its a damned useful system.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 09:51 PM
Some players will like that, some will not. How often do you like to back track to figure out what you missed?

I'm not saying that is good, nor am I saying it is bad. It will, without a doubt be forced immersion which can be good or bad. It really depends on how it is done.


They were user made... completely optional.

Musouka's got it. You could also avoid quests or authors entirely, very easily, if you know you don't like them for whatever reason. You can also rate/promote the ones you do like, and even tip authors game money for their time and effort.

die
02-10-2013, 10:02 PM
Musouka's got it. You could also avoid quests or authors entirely, very easily, if you know you don't like them for whatever reason. You can also rate/promote the ones you do like, and even tip authors game money for their time and effort.

Hey Leslie,

Quick question, youll know me as dredking on the forums over on NwO. any how ive been watching alot of the live stream game play loving it! one question tho im not really seeing what the monster types are, i think i seen a wererat, but what were those giant looking monsters? does in look like they are following a monster manual or just making up monsters?

Musouka
02-10-2013, 10:10 PM
Hey Leslie,

Quick question, youll know me as dredking on the forums over on NwO. any how ive been watching alot of the live stream game play loving it! one question tho im not really seeing what the monster types are, i think i seen a wererat, but what were those giant looking monsters? does in look like they are following a monster manual or just making up monsters?

They have practically everything. Ghosts, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, kobolds, wererats, player races, demons, devils, orcs, ogres... the list just goes on and on. Some of the bigger ones are just bigger versions of the aforementioned. They're coming straight out of the Monster Manuals.

die
02-10-2013, 10:16 PM
They have practically everything. Ghosts, zombies, ghouls, ghasts, kobolds, wererats, player races, demons, devils, orcs, ogres... the list just goes on and on. Some of the bigger ones are just bigger versions of the aforementioned. They're coming straight out of the Monster Manuals.

Cool ty for the reply, how did you like the leveling i noticed the guy i was watching was already lv 20 and getting a mount 1 day into the game play..im assuming that would be 20 ranks as we would call them or did tey really get oo lv 20 in a day that would be kinda a drag

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 10:19 PM
Hey Leslie,

Quick question, youll know me as dredking on the forums over on NwO. any how ive been watching alot of the live stream game play loving it! one question tho im not really seeing what the monster types are, i think i seen a wererat, but what were those giant looking monsters? does in look like they are following a monster manual or just making up monsters?

They are definitely not making things up. There's a whole lot of monsters in it already - maybe more than what debuted in DDO. Many of them are very well done. Not sure which monster you were referring to in the video tho. I will say the giant race is very well proportioned in Neverwinter, unlike some of the mini-giants here in DDO. The experience of meeting giants in Neverwinter brought back memories of how amazed I was when walking into Gianthold the very first time when the content was released. I was like HOLY ****! Same feel I get in Neverwinter.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Cool ty for the reply, how did you like the leveling i noticed the guy i was watching was already lv 20 and getting a mount 1 day into the game play..im assuming that would be 20 ranks as we would call them or did tey really get oo lv 20 in a day that would be kinda a drag


Dont worry about leveling. There's a multiplier on it... we are all trying to guess what that multiplier is, I believe its about 4x the XP that you'll get when the game launches, but thats just my guess. Remember, in those videos the game is still an alpha state. Yes its 1st week beta weekend, but what you see has been the development work of the alpha phase. Next beta weekend we'll see the work of the 1st beta team weekend, as devs listen in to the reports of the beta folks, who will have the same likes/dislikes as many of the posters here. Hell there's a pretty decent DDO community forming there already.

As per your question, divide what they did in a day (if they did it in a day) and thats 5 levels. In DDO, getting to 5th level in a day is pretty dang doable ;)

die
02-10-2013, 10:30 PM
Dont worry about leveling. There's a multiplier on it... we are all trying to guess what that multiplier is, I believe its about 4x the XP that you'll get when the game launches, but thats just my guess. Remember, in those videos the game is still an alpha state. Yes its 1st week beta weekend, but what you see has been the development work of the alpha phase. Next beta weekend we'll see the work of the 1st beta team weekend, as devs listen in to the reports of the beta folks, who will have the same likes/dislikes as many of the posters here. Hell there's a pretty decent DDO community forming there already.

As per your question, divide what they did in a day (if they did it in a day) and thats 5 levels. In DDO, getting to 5th level in a day is pretty dang doable ;)

Thanks man , i look forward too opening day !!

Musouka
02-10-2013, 11:11 PM
I will say one thing. DDO has the LFM window. I have yet to play another game with such a good way to form PUGs. I don't like randomly being placed in a group I cannot see the composition, or randomly queued up with 4 others. I wish more games would use the system of group advertisement board like DDOs. You can see who is trying to join your group, you can see who is already in the group. That goes for names and classes.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 11:24 PM
I will say one thing. DDO has the LFM window. I have yet to play another game with such a good way to form PUGs. I don't like randomly being placed in a group I cannot see the composition, or randomly queued up with 4 others. I wish more games would use the system of group advertisement board like DDOs. You can see who is trying to join your group, you can see who is already in the group. That goes for names and classes.

Agreed. DDOs LFM window is definitely superior to the system Neverwinter uses. I have a feeling there will be changes as the game gets closer to launch in this area.

Fixitosis
02-10-2013, 11:25 PM
I played a rogue up to level 30 on this beta weekend. I soloed mostly and did a few grouped dungeon delves.

I enjoyed the gameplay well past the newness glam.

Was there problems you'd expect to see in beta? Certainly. No more or less than I've seen in every game I've ever beta tested.

Figuring out what combos to use for the best damage in/out ratio was fairly simple and straight forward. Every quest was doable solo.

I did get a companion cleric and hawk. I leveled the cleric and relied on her very little during skirmishes. She followed well, healed me out of combat so I was ready for the next battle and gave me a place to equip some nice gear that I couldn't wear. :)

At 20 I did a little quest and purchased a mount. It was a nice black horse. As you level up you have the ability to level up the horse you bought and/or buy another with better armor. Yep, armored mounts.

The mount rode very well and reduced travel time quite a bit as you could buzz right past most mobs in the open area if you just want to get to the quest entrance quickly.

The game graphics were equal if not better than DDO's. Mob mechanics were handled quite well.

A couple of mobs I enjoyed were the mimics and the gel. cube. Both actually startled me when they went active or dropped on me. The cube was quit quick and I had to scramble to stay ahead of it. It dispatched my cleric hireling very quickly. :mad:

The foundry, a part of the game were player-made content is created has alot of potential. The few Player=made quests that I chose to run were done well.

Off to the side of the main city there is a little island with a tavern/inn called the Moon Mask. Inside there was a V.I.P. area for founders and such I presume. There weren't any npc's in the V.I.P. area yet but it sure looked nice.:cool:

PvP.... well, there weren't any playable wizards this weekend so I'd have to say rogues were king there. It'll take a bit to get classes evened in pve.

As far as abilities like armor pen, deflection, health regen, foot speed you get it from gear, stats and heroic/paragon points. You can also boost encounter specific stuff with consumables for a few minutes at a time. Like damage, deflection, fort bypass, ect...

I will be playing the game, it's free to play. How often? That remains to be seen. Maybe just when I need a little break from the DDO grind I'll do the Neverwinter grind.

Postumus
02-10-2013, 11:36 PM
So if the rogue was to type "TRAP!" , everyone in party sees the text bubble right above his head onscreen, no need to look down at the text window. Its a damned useful system.

They have a similar feature in DDO: the '/stop' emote makes a big stop sign with a hand inside it appear over the player's head. But do you ever see anyone use it? Probably not, at least I never do, because saying it into the mic is so much easier than typing '/stop'. I expect it will be the same in Neverwinter.


I don't understand how you don't see any 'pay to win' as players can directly funnel their cash into zen into astral diamonds into game items. Basically anything you can get in the game with astral diamonds will be available to those who willing to spend real money on ADs, right?

And no, there is no way any F2P MMO can get by just selling cosmetic doodads. People won't pay enough or purchase enough for them to support a multi-million dollar game. That is why the founder's packs have more than just cosmetics in them.

Postumus
02-10-2013, 11:39 PM
Agreed. DDOs LFM window is definitely superior to the system Neverwinter uses. I have a feeling there will be changes as the game gets closer to launch in this area.

How do you group with folks you don't know then? I haven't seen any video of lfm type groups being formed yet.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-10-2013, 11:54 PM
They have a similar feature in DDO: the '/stop' emote makes a big stop sign with a hand inside it appear over the player's head. But do you ever see anyone use it? Probably not, at least I never do, because saying it into the mic is so much easier than typing '/stop'. I expect it will be the same in Neverwinter.


I don't understand how you don't see any 'pay to win' as players can directly funnel their cash into zen into astral diamonds into game items. Basically anything you can get in the game with astral diamonds will be available to those who willing to spend real money on ADs, right?

And no, there is no way any F2P MMO can get by just selling cosmetic doodads. People won't pay enough or purchase enough for them to support a multi-million dollar game. That is why the founder's packs have more than just cosmetics in them.

Oh I see the potential to make money sure. But they are in this for profit, and it's their right to make it. I mean, calling it Pay2Win at this point is a far, far stretch from reality, and this comes from someone who went apedoodoo when Turbine introduced the e-store. I know what to look for. Lockboxes will be he thing to watch out for, and its easily avoidable and never, even once required to play the game. But the cash shop as it stands now is not pay2win by any means at this juncture, imho.

Founders Packs have zero pay 2 win in them. Nonessential items. Unique items. Nothing you need to win. Its just a way to support the programmers that have been working for many years on this game already. I saw no value in them (due to them not releasing the value of astral diamonds), so I didn't buy em. I do believe in supporting a product when it goes live, and will be doing so in Neverwinter.

Fixitosis
02-11-2013, 12:18 AM
How do you group with folks you don't know then? I haven't seen any video of lfm type groups being formed yet.

They have quite the extensive social window. Way more diverse then what we have in DDO.

Postumus
02-11-2013, 12:19 AM
Oh I see the potential to make money sure. But they are in this for profit, and it's their right to make it. I mean, calling it Pay2Win at this point is a far, far stretch from reality, and this comes from someone who went apedoodoo when Turbine introduced the e-store. I know what to look for. Lockboxes will be he thing to watch out for, and its easily avoidable and never, even once required to play the game. But the cash shop as it stands now is not pay2win by any means at this juncture, imho.

Founders Packs have zero pay 2 win in them. Nonessential items. Unique items. Nothing you need to win. Its just a way to support the programmers that have been working for many years on this game already. I saw no value in them (due to them not releasing the value of astral diamonds), so I didn't buy em. I do believe in supporting a product when it goes live, and will be doing so in Neverwinter.

I would argue that selling currency in the founder's packs, and grab bag items for that matter, is seen as Pay-to-win by a lot of players. But my definition of 'pay-to-win' is if the only way you can get the item is by paying $$ and it can't be earned/found in game some how. But then I don't think DDO is pay to win. I think selling in game currency that I can use to purchase things from other players is... well... not pay to win, but I suppose pay to avoid playing/grinding?


I'm not sure I really care about that as I am not likely to do it, but I do think that sort of thing can impact an in game economy where it can inflate the cost of items to the point where players who don't purchase game currency with real dollars are at a disadvantage. But I since no one has to use the AH (or game stores) to enjoy either game it doesn't negatively impact me.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 12:31 AM
They have quite the extensive social window. Way more diverse then what we have in DDO.

Yeah and the guild grouping features are to die for. For example there's a calendar feature officers can use to setup scheduled guild runs... with reminders built right into the game. Any guildie can sign right up on the fly.

Postumus
02-11-2013, 02:26 AM
Yeah and the guild grouping features are to die for. For example there's a calendar feature officers can use to setup scheduled guild runs... with reminders built right into the game. Any guildie can sign right up on the fly.

That is a pretty sweet feature.

dunklezhan
02-11-2013, 02:34 AM
I do not disagree with that. I know that puts it out of order to your post, but I wanted that stated up front.

TL;DR version: how does NWO present story/lore information such that it stays with a lazy player who doesn't give a care about reading anything, just wants loot and xp, and normally has their own music blaring drowning out all other sounds?



I certainly will answer, that's easy peasy for me: I have absolutely no idea, I haven't played it yet! :)

All my last post was about was really just acknowledging some gaps in DDO that I wish were closed. I wasn't trying to claim Neverwinter IS doing things better, just that DDO is doing those things badly.

But our spy, er, OP, says that it does hook you in pretty early. I'm going to choose to add my own suffix to that and guess that it hooks you in pretty early 'if you're paying a little attention'.

In DDO, you have to be paying a LOT of attention. The starter island plot is pretty clear, but seemingly unconnected with the main plot until much much later on. Long enough that it feels like you step away from Korthos and that's it done.

My position on NW is simply this: if RP is more than an afterthought, and good UG content is easy to identify (there's a ranking/star system where you can look at feedback and such direct through the interface so I'm hopefuly about this), and Cryptic content has a good, accessible plot line... then provided the gameplay is fun and my character can be unique in more than terms of appearance (this latter point is looking highly dubious though I'm heartened by the review someone linked which hinted about a 'deep' feat system) then I don't care how 'simple' the combat is compared to DDO, I will still have fun.

If the gameplay is dull on the other hand, then none of the rest matters: I'll last until I've capped a character at the most (probably a lot less).


Some players don't care about plot, some do. I'm not saying plot should be force fed to those who want to ignore it. But these games are MMORPGs, emphasis mine, after all. If the RP element (by which I mean the plot, world background, general immersion in the game world, not necessarily how in character you stay) is missing, then it's just a plain MMO "video game". And if that's all I'm playing anyway, why would an arcade combat style to go with it be much of a problem?

ddonoobgamer
02-11-2013, 03:55 AM
But my definition of 'pay-to-win' is if the only way you can get the item is by paying $$ and it can't be earned/found in game some how. But then I don't think DDO is pay to win.

How do you earn/find in-game the panther pet I own from paying $80 for the collector's expansion pack? By your definition, DDO would be P2W. :)

Postumus
02-11-2013, 04:55 AM
How do you earn/find in-game the panther pet I own from paying $80 for the collector's expansion pack? By your definition, DDO would be P2W. :)

Yeah, an awesome gold seal fighter hireling that never goes away is pretty sweet. And you are right, you can't earn it in game. You could get a stack of epic hirelings, but still not really the same. Hmmm.... stumped. I need to come up with better criteria I guess, because I still don't think that a true one-time offer like that is really p2w. Or if it is, I don't really care. :)

Charononus
02-11-2013, 05:24 AM
An interesting note, DDO has had this notice on the forums for a couple years now:

Known Issue: Black Screen With Visible UI: Some Intel users may find that when DirectX 10 is enabled, only their UI is visible and the rest of their screen is black. If this occurs, we recommend you disable DX10, enable DX9, and restart the game client.

NWO had this problem too it seems only it doesn't support dx9, but the tech team patched it and made it work for intel chipsets before the beta weekend was done.

Over all I didn't like the customization aspect as I've been spoiled by DDO but it wasn't badly done imo.

Fixitosis
02-11-2013, 06:22 AM
How do you earn/find in-game the panther pet I own from paying $80 for the collector's expansion pack? By your definition, DDO would be P2W. :)

From the "Q&A post on the Neverwinter beta forums:

"Q: Where are my Founder's Pack items like the mount and companion?
A: You will receive a select number of items from the pack(s) you purchased immediately when you log in to play during a Beta Weekend event. This provides an opportunity to try out these items and show them off to players in the Forgotten Realms. When Neverwinter launches, you will receive all items from the pack(s) you purchased to enjoy!"


I'm pretty sure it will be a small quest unlock like the regular companion/mounts are.

Missing_Minds
02-11-2013, 09:02 AM
A word of caution.

I have absolutely no clue IF this will apply to NWO or if they ever changed in CO.

When CO would crash, it would attempt to send not one, but TWO data dump files. One is a stripped down version that would be sent off fairly quickly.

The second was a datadump of the ENTIRE thing. Yes, ALL of the gigs in memory, data dumped and auto sent. You had to kill that manually. I never understood why Cryptic would want the complete data dump for a random crash but they tried to get such all the time in CO.

I would hope they stopped doing that, but just in case, be aware that could happen on a crash.

Hoglum
02-11-2013, 09:44 AM
@Leslie West (Aandre?),

A big concern of mine which prompted my post here is that, from what I've seen, the classes in NWO look extremely limited. I'm pretty stoked about the implications of the Foundry (possibly unlimited # of dungeons!). If the characters are as limited as they seem, that may not matter to me so much. Perhaps it would still be fun, but I'll see when it's released (yes, I still plan on being there on day 1).

I read somewhere on the NWO forums that a "Great Weapon Fighter" cannot swap out to a sword and shield. This just sounds lame. Also, there is a possibility of a Ranger being released.

What I'd like to know is: would a Ranger be able to swap to handheld weapons or are they thinking to make it strictly a "you can only use a bow" sort of thing?

The question I have: are they going to open things up so people can switch weapons, spells, choose powers, etc.? Currently, everything I've seen points toward you "unlock" a couple things at level X or whatever, but you don't really get to choose anything beyond your original class. That strikes me as rather bland.

I'm not talking about switching from a great axe to a great sword on a "Great Weapon Fighter". I'm talking about whipping out your bow when you feel the need to range. I'm hoping the best for this game. I've been waiting a long time for the next (?better - unkown yet?) Neverwinter, but so far this reeks of "dumbing down" in a big way.

I also hope DDO doesn't "dumb down" with the enhancement overhaul as you're suggesting they probably will, but that's another story.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 11:53 AM
@Leslie West (Aandre?),

Good catch! :)


A big concern of mine which prompted my post here is that, from what I've seen, the classes in NWO look extremely limited. I'm pretty stoked about the implications of the Foundry (possibly unlimited # of dungeons!). If the characters are as limited as they seem, that may not matter to me so much. Perhaps it would still be fun, but I'll see when it's released (yes, I still plan on being there on day 1).

Classes are definitely limited now. That's to be expected on "day 1" of closed beta. They are expecting a refreshingly long beta cycle that actually includes testing, so new classes are open fodder for review at later dates. Either way, they'll be adding classes to at least compare with the number of classes in DDO in time.



I read somewhere on the NWO forums that a "Great Weapon Fighter" cannot swap out to a sword and shield. This just sounds lame. Also, there is a possibility of a Ranger being released.

What I'd like to know is: would a Ranger be able to swap to handheld weapons or are they thinking to make it strictly a "you can only use a bow" sort of thing?

The question I have: are they going to open things up so people can switch weapons, spells, choose powers, etc.? Currently, everything I've seen points toward you "unlock" a couple things at level X or whatever, but you don't really get to choose anything beyond your original class. That strikes me as rather bland.

The classes are tuned to feel very different from each other in the battlefield. For now weapons types are tied to the class. Additional types will be added to each class as the game matures into launch. So yeah, the ability to switch to a bow for example is not in yet. It's just one of the decisions that were made at the top which everyone is pushing to get changed. Sloowly, they seem to be coming around :)


I also hope DDO doesn't "dumb down" with the enhancement overhaul as you're suggesting they probably will, but that's another story.

WoTC feels they need their computer products to attarct more than just old school D&D freaks, of which many have long grown up and moved into corporate environments and left tabletop in the dust. Not everyone can actually work for Turbine & Cryptic :) Needless to say - NWO and DDO will looked more and more dumbed down to those of us that have loved our D&D. This is an MMO world, after all. Sorry not much to be happy about in this paragraph - but as they would tell ya privately, its business.

When the dust clears, even with limitations placed on character choice at the moment, compared to DDO, Neverwinter has a lot going for it, including things many in the DDO community has long since gave up asking for. It needs to improve in the character customization arena, without question, but it seems to slowly be doing just that - so we'll see.

Hoglum
02-11-2013, 12:27 PM
+1 to you LW Aandre, thanks!

I hope they come through on Neverwinter. I've no problem with folks wanting to hit the pre-made paths just to get rolling without having to worry about it, but I'm a builder myself.

Likewise I hope DDO finds a way to get out more content somehow. People who have suggested user made content have been countered that it may be too difficult to implement at this time, which is a shame since it could be great fun.

If both companies find a way I'm sure I'm going to have terrible difficulty allocating my time.

Postumus
02-11-2013, 12:56 PM
If people are really doubting user made content, they really need to stop. Already there are about 40 different adventures that are more amazing and involved than some of the regular game content.



The foundry is what appeals to me the most. If DDO ever adds something like this I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever leave.


To Mus and anyone else who cares to answer (Leslie?):

1- how does the user content compare to the Cryptic content? And if Musouka is correct, that some of it was 'more amazing' than the Cryptic content, how were users able to generate content with a brand new tool in beta that was better than Cryptic's in less than five days?


2- what do you think the limitations of the user created content?


3- did anyone actually play around with the foundry?

apaurin
02-11-2013, 01:18 PM
Skill/DC checks are not part of the system, but I understand are currently in development. As of now you either have the ability or you do not. Each class currently gets one skill. Wizards get arcana, fighters get dungeoneering, clerics get religion, thieves get thievery. It's likely a "currently unknown class" gets nature. If you don't have a skill, you can either group up with somebody who does or use skill granting items in enabling the skill for three minutes. This is a brilliant workaround to the DDO UMD system, that allows for much easier solo play if thats what you are looking for.

The character stats are intertwined with much of your build (your powers). You have a main stat and two secondary stats. You roll stats much like you do in tabletop.

Tactical abilities are interwoven into some powers, and foot placement when using those powers is very important. It's not quite as click-happy as DDO is, yet there is definitely strategy involved. Really hard to explain here, as I love the DDO tactics system. Its different, yet still fun.





The classes are tuned to feel very different from each other in the battlefield. For now weapons types are tied to the class. Additional types will be added to each class as the game matures into launch. So yeah, the ability to switch to a bow for example is not in yet. It's just one of the decisions that were made at the top which everyone is pushing to get changed. Sloowly, they seem to be coming around :)


Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...

Grosbeak07
02-11-2013, 01:26 PM
Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...

I agree.

This beta seems to be a mess with them not sure where they want to go or what to do.

Actually its starting to sound exactly like Guild Wars 2.

Jay203
02-11-2013, 02:26 PM
1- how does the user content compare to the Cryptic content? And if Musouka is correct, that some of it was 'more amazing' than the Cryptic content, how were users able to generate content with a brand new tool in beta that was better than Cryptic's in less than five days?


2- what do you think the limitations of the user created content?


3- did anyone actually play around with the foundry?

hard to say at this point how much freedom we'll have with the foundry since no one got to play around with it atm.

Postumus
02-11-2013, 02:35 PM
hard to say at this point how much freedom we'll have with the foundry since no one got to play around with it atm.

So what the heck is Musouka talking about? How did he see and supposedly play up to 40 user generated quests?

Neverwinter devs just making some side content to demonstrate how it works maybe?

Vordax
02-11-2013, 02:42 PM
Yeah and the guild grouping features are to die for. For example there's a calendar feature officers can use to setup scheduled guild runs... with reminders built right into the game. Any guildie can sign right up on the fly.

This is a feature that WoW has had for years, would be a nice feature in DDO. Guild bank and officer ranking would be nice too. WoW's guild bank also allows many levels of access based on the guild members rank. Wish DDO had 11 million subscribers and the money to spend on some of these enhanced features.

Charononus
02-11-2013, 02:47 PM
So what the heck is Musouka talking about? How did he see and supposedly play up to 40 user generated quests?

Neverwinter devs just making some side content to demonstrate how it works maybe?

From my understanding forum mod and other cryptic employees that were not the level design dev team use the foundry to make some quests to show off the system. One that I played I know was made by someone who is a forum mod and represenative not a actual developer if that makes sense.

Postumus
02-11-2013, 02:54 PM
From my understanding forum mod and other cryptic employees that were not the level design dev team use the foundry to make some quests to show off the system. One that I played I know was made by someone who is a forum mod and represenative not a actual developer if that makes sense.

That absolutely makes sense. Thank you.

It also explains why the content Musouka said he saw was so good. It is surely far above par with what the average user will create if STO (or any of the various user mod games) is any indication of how these things typically go.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 03:05 PM
That absolutely makes sense. Thank you.

It also explains why the content Musouka said he saw was so good. It is surely far above par with what the average user will create if STO (or any of the various user mod games) is any indication of how these things typically go.

Musouko is correct, but not exactly for the reasons given though. The UGC is very strong, much of it on par and yes, even more engrossing that some of the Cryptic instances quests.. which are all well done that Ive seen. None of the UGC that I saw were developer created.

NDA blocks me from explaining why the UGC has been this solid so early on, lets just say there's a letter before beta in the greek alphabet....... :)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 03:15 PM
Damn this sounds even worse than I feared , I was mildly interested now I'm pretty sure I'm skipping it...

Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 03:32 PM
This beta seems to be a mess with them not sure where they want to go or what to do.

Actually its starting to sound exactly like Guild Wars 2.

From someone there whose been very critical of Cryptic since the very beginning, I have to tell you that beta and other testing opportunities that Ive been a part of have gone very smoothly. Its not at all chaotic. Its been in fact the best testing experience Ive had in years. They actually know what they want to do... and did long ago. In development, things get added and subtracted and altered... they are still doing that now.. even in beta.

As for GW2, no. Not anywhere in a near galaxy.

apaurin
02-11-2013, 03:41 PM
Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.

I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-11-2013, 03:44 PM
I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...

Core mechanics are getting changed, in fact one of them is currently on the chopping block if testers get their.... Oh sorry, Cryptic police.. hey, watch the threads!!

Charononus
02-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.

Agreed for what they showed it was actually a very good beta with imo a lot polish. I ran sunday after the bug that kept me from playing was fixed and I kept an eye out for bugs. Honestly I was very impressed with this aspect as I couldn't find one that I thought was a bug. The closest was a caster that cast teleport to get out of melee way too often and took longer to kill than most bosses because of it.

The customization needs work.
They need to add more classes. (going to happen)
4e isn't that great but what can you do.

However in terms of bugs their beta made ddo's live look like an alpha status game. If they add some more customization and enough of my current guildies go over to it, I'll probably leave ddo just because of the bugs and that level of polish if it stays consistent. I've been thinking about this quite a bit during the past day, and while I love the character creation and 3.5 parts of ddo I think I'd be quite willing to leave to play a game with less bugs encountered.

Hoglum
02-11-2013, 04:01 PM
Core mechanics are getting changed, in fact one of them is currently on the chopping block if testers get their.... Oh sorry, Cryptic police.. hey, watch the threads!!


I'm putting my money on the rooting. They said they had the game running without rooting already, so this should be an easy change. If they decide to open the classes up a bit; add saving throws, skills, or whatever else is lacking (such as a Fighter being able to pick up a bow), is it feasible they can manipulate the system without much difficulty? As one poster stated, it might be too much of a change from the current system & they've already delayed, what? 20 years or so? Ha ha, just kidding on that last one.

patang01
02-11-2013, 04:23 PM
Thats fine. Listen, this game is still in development. If you've never alpha or beta tested a game in your life, you coulnt possibly understand the process. For those that have recently, this is very much not a done game accept for polish.. aka the game is basically ready to ship/marketing ploy. They are doing it similar to the way games used to be tested, with real alpha and beta phases where testers' feedback actually makes a difference.

My advice to you is to just wait a bit when more of the game is ironed out. Because some of the stuff we are discussing here will not be in the final launch product.

I've never been a fan of any game where the primary reason for playing a class the way you want it, is a afterthought based on input from beta players. Don't get me wrong; but it's different when you make a game with that as a primary feature or decide to ad hoc it in later.

To cementing in a class into a hack and slash just to maybe add to it later means that there never was a strong focus on the builder part. And it's not coded for that either. While the foundry sounds like a neat prospect I've seen and played game with a similar approach. You get 1-3 percent good content out of 97 broken and lousy. And where someones rating becomes king - not because it happens to be the best content but because people will exploit the means to rate it.

Thus human nature skips the good stuff for the things with lots of stars. I'm not saying it's good or bad only that it sound super interesting but wading through cookie cutter broken stuff is a waste of time in it itself. And that's not a question of remaining with DDO, but to me without the primary focus in building this is a no deal. I can skip the plentitude of man made dungeons if I in turn can keep the possibilities of my own gamestyle without being suckered into x class with x item. That will grow old very quickly.

Jaid314
02-11-2013, 04:44 PM
I doubt they will change such core mechanics as skill checks later in development, they would have to readjust all the quests around it then. But anythings possible i guess. Initial class selection is very poor imho, why two separate fighter classes (is that how it works in 4E pnp too?, I have no experience whatsoever with it). It would make more sense if they have chosen paladin for s&b tank class maybe...

multiple fighter classes are not exactly how 4e works, but it isn't completely off either.

basically, when you choose a class, most of them have 2 or more variations, and in some cases will also have multiple possible sources of variation... for example, you can have a cleric that trades in turn undead for more healing. another ability that adds wisdom modifier to healing that my (pure healing specialized) cleric has could be traded in for proficiency in scale armour (that's equal to a fighter for the record, and is actually quite good) and a +2 shield bonus to AC (which is actually as high as shields go, ever, for AC i think).

this doesn't even account for the difference between essentials versions of a class and the old version, mind you.

now, you can change some decisions later on... you can choose different powers, you can choose different feats, you can retrain skills, and you can apparently retrain your theme (which is kind of like a background). but generally speaking, those abilities you choose at level 1 when you pick your class, those are there to stay forever.

so, for example, there *is* such a thing as a "great weapon fighter". sort of. you can choose to be better with certain kinds of weapons, for example, two-handed weapons, or one-handed weapons, or two weapons, or even having a hand available for grab attacks, or using exotic weapons, and so forth. you can't really change those later on.

that said, nothing about the two-handed weapon talent prevents you from picking up a bow (in fact, looking at it, the two-handed weapon talent works on a bow, since it isn't limited to melee attacks). nor does it force any later decisions (although it certainly makes certain decisions a better choice... you don't *have* to choose from powers that work while holding a two-handed weapon, but it's certainly a wise decision to choose those powers).

Jay203
02-11-2013, 05:26 PM
for now it's just sit tight and watch how it evolves
certainly there are bugs, and they've been reported (hopefully will be fixed as well)
some mechanics in the game could also use some tweaking to avoid bad-taste gameplay
and then there's the whole user generated stuff, that's definitely something to keep an eye out for
of the foundry quests i've played, some are pretty boring, some have potential, and some are just... there

die
02-11-2013, 06:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ERazhGrMI

well im watching this one now, i may have just found a deal breaker for me in regards too this game ... are you ready gamers ... here it comes hold tight....... 4th edition does now support.... drum roollll No duel classing in this game $%$% ARE YOU KIDDING ME IM SO ****ED

Musouka
02-11-2013, 07:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ERazhGrMI

well im watching this one now, i may have just found a deal breaker for me in regards too this game ... are you ready gamers ... here it comes hold tight....... 4th edition does now support.... drum roollll No duel classing in this game $%$% ARE YOU KIDDING ME IM SO ****ED

that's not real news...

Multiclassing was thrown out the window, without heavy gimping, in 4th ed.

Jaid314
02-11-2013, 07:27 PM
4th edition supports multiclassing. in at least 2 forms, in fact.

of course, one of those forms sucks massively, and the other one generally amounts to the equivalent of having less than 1 level in your other class unless you burn a ton of feats, but it's there.

(which is not to say that NWO supports multiclassing; i have no idea if it does or not).

Postumus
02-11-2013, 07:30 PM
some mechanics in the game could also use some tweaking to avoid bad-taste gameplay


What do you mean by bad-taste gameplay? Shadow humping or...??

Missing_Minds
02-11-2013, 08:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ERazhGrMI

well im watching this one now, i may have just found a deal breaker for me in regards too this game ... are you ready gamers ... here it comes hold tight....... 4th edition does now support.... drum roollll No duel classing in this game $%$% ARE YOU KIDDING ME IM SO ****ED

You tend to throw out multi classing when you make all classes balanced. You know, the fact that no one is special it sort of forces you to roll play your specialness.

die
02-11-2013, 09:07 PM
the fact that there is no multi-classing just about kill's it for me .. why cant some one just build a DDO2 really its got the best game out there, but i cant play any more lol im just so bored of the same old **** over and over. now new update woot!! yea what i love too wait for, what Giant hold what really $#%^% bloody hell

Jay203
02-11-2013, 10:02 PM
What do you mean by bad-taste gameplay? Shadow humping or...??

whenever you're in party and someone loots something on the ground that's of a certain quality or higher, a window pops up to all the party member prompting the Need/Greed/Pass roll

when multiple items are looted while in combat, your screen has a chunk blocked off by the prompts
if you want to see the stats of the item being rolled, you have to go into mouse mode (which means you can't react to combat)

Jay203
02-11-2013, 10:04 PM
altho they do have pretty cool scoreboard for the dungeon delves :D
shows the amount of damage dealt by each party member, the amount of damage received, the amount of healing, amount of kills, and finally the number of times each member is 'downed' or killed

Uska
02-12-2013, 09:39 AM
I do know chat bubbles are in.

Can you turn them off? If not that's a deal breaker I hate chat bubbles and won't pay a game where they are mandatory.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 02:17 PM
Can you turn them off? If not that's a deal breaker I hate chat bubbles and won't pay a game where they are mandatory.

I think so Uska, I usually hate bubbles as well, but surprisingly Ive never tried to turn em off because they blend in so well graphically... at least with my setup. I'll check that the next time I get a chance to play, unless someone ninjas me ;)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 03:53 PM
I've never been a fan of any game where the primary reason for playing a class the way you want it, is a afterthought based on input from beta players.

Testing is needed in games like this because of balance issues. Its just a must. For example, DDO has had the same testing needs and always will. Games like DDO and Neverwinter have to follow at least the gist of the class as it is in the books. WotC will not allow Turbine or Cryptic to base the class the way they or alpha/beta testers may want it just for the hell of it. WotC get initial and final say, always.

saco
02-12-2013, 05:12 PM
Can you turn them off? If not that's a deal breaker I hate chat bubbles and won't pay a game where they are mandatory.

They're not even chat bubbles really, hard to read for me at least.

As for Neverwinter itself... pretty much a WoWification of D&D is all it is. Combat is like GW2 or WoW, restrictive environment which it's even more restrictive than most MMOs, really it's like what Demon Stone was in the XBox. Had the name of D&D but certainly not D&D.

Had high hopes for Neverwinter but they were pretty much bashed in beta. Game if F2P so worth some time but I find it doubtful it'll hold much for those here since it's a polar opposite take on D&D. The things that make DDO unique is non-existent over there.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 05:20 PM
snip

Did you actually play the game?

saco
02-12-2013, 05:29 PM
Did you actually play the game?

All weekend, I'm in the large crowd that aren't sold yet on Neverwinter.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 05:51 PM
All weekend, I'm in the large crowd that aren't sold yet on Neverwinter.

Fair enough. Where on the Neverwinter site are the large crowd of haters tho, just wondering? Because in all, seems pretty positive from my viewpoint. Its normal many like, many dont like... just the way games work out. Perfectly normal. Plenty did not DDO when it was in the same phase, and also made plenty of the Wow clone comments as well, in fact. We've heard it for years.

Sorry you didnt like the game. Just like DDO, its definitely not for everyone.

saco
02-12-2013, 06:03 PM
Fair enough. Where on the Neverwinter site are the large crowd of haters tho, just wondering? Because in all, seems pretty positive from my viewpoint. Its normal many like, many dont like... just the way games work out. Perfectly normal. Plenty did not DDO when it was in the same phase, in fact.

Sorry you didnt like the game. Its definitely not for everyone.

Well you make the mistake of basing your assessment off of the official site, that is where all the rabid fans are. Of course you will mostly have positive posters over there. Go to MMORPG.com for a better assessment, which they still are not in the top 7 hyped MMO. And there are quite a few threads that are not holding Neverwinter up in rose-hued glasses, there is a certain presence not all pleased with the game. In both of my cross-gaming guilds there are a significant amount that are not all that trilled with Neverwinter, 1/3-1/2 of the posts are not positive.

Like you said, many will not like it, people will have differing opinions. And I'm not the one that started throwing accusations because my opinion differs.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 06:24 PM
Go to MMORPG.com for a better assessment

No I will never go to mmorpg for assessment of a game like this. DDO and Neverwinter have been punching bags for years on that site. Used to be a great source, still check it on occasion, but its filled of the Steam kiddies that jump from 1 f2p to another every week. So thanks but no thanks!! ;)

No one's accusing anyone of anything, take it easy. Its all personal taste.

Grosbeak07
02-12-2013, 06:33 PM
Watched some of the game play videos on You Tube.

Still not impressed...at all.

It is Champions or even Star Trek reskinned, the combat, heck even the UI looks very similar to things in Guild Wars 2. Showed the videos to my wife, who said... "looks just like Guild Wars 2". - only not quite as nice.

Meh.

I certainly didn't see anything new, exciting or even enticing. When I saw the cleric disarm traps, I think I threw up a little in my mouth. Not that I agree with pigeon-holing players into class roles, but that was just too much.

Plus many of the reviews on non-cryptic sites have been pretty bad, this game is looking more and more like a day late and a dollar short.

Missing_Minds
02-12-2013, 06:47 PM
Fair enough. Where on the Neverwinter site are the large crowd of haters tho, just wondering?
... Seriously?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
02-12-2013, 06:51 PM
... Seriously?

Seriously. Compared to the vitriol on our site in 2005/06, that's nothing! ;)

However Im fully aware many still loving DDO will still love DDO afterwards. This is for those looking for a change and prefer this style of play. I think its great. All that matters to me.. is it fun to play. Even still, I consider DDO my #1 game, because it's closer to the D&D I grew up playing. But I'll play both.

Musouka
02-12-2013, 07:26 PM
No I will never go to mmorpg for assessment of a game like this. DDO and Neverwinter have been punching bags for years on that site. Used to be a great source, still check it on occasion, but its filled of the Steam kiddies that jump from 1 f2p to another every week. So thanks but no thanks!! ;)

No one's accusing anyone of anything, take it easy. Its all personal taste.

that website is just awful vitriol to nearly every game.

Whenever people link articles on that site, I can't help but laugh.

slarden
02-14-2013, 06:15 PM
I participated in the beta and I believe DDO and Neverwinter to be games that appeal to mostly different people.

DDO is a very complex game with many choices and a significant time investment to build an end game character. The folks that spend 20+ hours on DDO per week will never like Neverwinter. The big disadvantage of DDO for some is that it is so easy to feel like you are behind and can never catch up. It's also easy to build a character only to find out you made a big mistake with your build and correcting it will take forever. Just picture putting everything into a level 20 Ranger Arcane Archer only to find out the capstone doesn't work as advertised and the most effective archer in the game requires 6-12 levels of monk with 10k stars, half elf and 2 levels of a 3rd class. I've been playing the game quite a bit for 2 years and feel as though I'll never caught up to where my characters should be. Yet, I still love the great customization DDO has to offer.

It's rather simple to start playing Neverwinter, hard to make a mistake and I ran through numerous quests without ever needing any of the store purchased items. When I died the quest wasn't a wipe, I just teleported to a point earlier in the quest where I could try again. It's a new game so you won't feel overwhelmed when people start linking gear. It has a less of a grind. And for people that enjoy designing dungeons for their friends and/or participating in their friends dungeons the foundry is quite simply the closest thing that exists to the P&P D&D culture I've ever seen. Expect DDO to have something similar as soon as they can pull it off.

The potential downsides of Neverwinter....lack of end game grind... the power gamer will be decidedly bored very quickly. There is nothing to brag about because everyone will have nice stuff. Secondly, pretty much everything is purchasable with real $ which means a person that throws $500 at the game will be very well geared very quickly. While this makes absolutely no difference in the quests because they are all completable without it, it will create a significant power balance in PVP unless they figure out a way to take the money advantage out of PVP. This exists in DDO as well, but in DDO the impact of $ spend on PVP isn't as significant. Other than PVP, purchasing items with $ will give no real advantage for PVE, however it will allow people to get nice things very fast. People are basically paying because they want it now. Just like the bestsellers on DDO - tomes, stones of xp, etc.

For the most part I think Neverwinter will be something that will appeal to the casual gamers, people that feel they can't keep up with more complex/grindy mmos, people with more money than time, people that enjoy creating their own content and people that always like to try something new. The foundry system will effectively provide an unlimited amount of content and I generally got better gear in the foundry quests than the cryptic quests because of how the scaling works and the xp bonus they provided which put me way ahead of the standard quest levels.

Big product differentiator for DDO: Customization and unlimited things to obtain and farm
Big product differentiator for Neverwinter: Ease of entry into the game and the foundry

Winner: Both - they will both continue to thrive and do well. Neverwinter will likely get some DDO casual players. Over time some Neverwinter players will migrate to DDO for the deeper end game and more complex character options. In the end there is plenty of room for two D&D games especially when they are so different.

Even though Neverwinter will have more appeal to many new players, I think DDO will have no problem continuing to attract new players. I think the revolving door of free-to-play players that like to dabble in all the games will continue to mean new DDO players will have no problems getting into parties and finding people to quest when starting out.

slarden
02-14-2013, 06:26 PM
From my understanding forum mod and other cryptic employees that were not the level design dev team use the foundry to make some quests to show off the system. One that I played I know was made by someone who is a forum mod and represenative not a actual developer if that makes sense.

The forum mod is a volunteer/alpha tester but not paid. His foundry quest was rated the highest and I did enjoy the chain he made, but I actually found a few quests I liked even better.

I am not sure if they disabled creating quests with the foundry because it is still buggy or they wanted to people to actually play the content instead of spending all weekend making their own quests.

whereispowderedsilve
02-16-2013, 11:34 AM
bump back to 1st page, off you go! :P! :)! So all 3 of the NO threads can be together like a happy family! :P! :)!

Charononus
02-16-2013, 11:40 AM
The forum mod is a volunteer/alpha tester but not paid. His foundry quest was rated the highest and I did enjoy the chain he made, but I actually found a few quests I liked even better.

I am not sure if they disabled creating quests with the foundry because it is still buggy or they wanted to people to actually play the content instead of spending all weekend making their own quests.

Ah cool good to know, I wish I had been able to play the beta test weekend longer but was only able to play sunday after they fixed the bluescreen bug.

Nightalas
02-17-2013, 05:56 AM
I participated in the beta and I believe DDO and Neverwinter to be games that appeal to mostly different people.

DDO is a very complex game with many choices and a significant time investment to build an end game character. The folks that spend 20+ hours on DDO per week will never like Neverwinter. The big disadvantage of DDO for some is that it is so easy to feel like you are behind and can never catch up. It's also easy to build a character only to find out you made a big mistake with your build and correcting it will take forever. Just picture putting everything into a level 20 Ranger Arcane Archer only to find out the capstone doesn't work as advertised and the most effective archer in the game requires 6-12 levels of monk with 10k stars, half elf and 2 levels of a 3rd class. I've been playing the game quite a bit for 2 years and feel as though I'll never caught up to where my characters should be. Yet, I still love the great customization DDO has to offer.

It's rather simple to start playing Neverwinter, hard to make a mistake and I ran through numerous quests without ever needing any of the store purchased items. When I died the quest wasn't a wipe, I just teleported to a point earlier in the quest where I could try again. It's a new game so you won't feel overwhelmed when people start linking gear. It has a less of a grind. And for people that enjoy designing dungeons for their friends and/or participating in their friends dungeons the foundry is quite simply the closest thing that exists to the P&P D&D culture I've ever seen. Expect DDO to have something similar as soon as they can pull it off.

The potential downsides of Neverwinter....lack of end game grind... the power gamer will be decidedly bored very quickly. There is nothing to brag about because everyone will have nice stuff. Secondly, pretty much everything is purchasable with real $ which means a person that throws $500 at the game will be very well geared very quickly. While this makes absolutely no difference in the quests because they are all completable without it, it will create a significant power balance in PVP unless they figure out a way to take the money advantage out of PVP. This exists in DDO as well, but in DDO the impact of $ spend on PVP isn't as significant. Other than PVP, purchasing items with $ will give no real advantage for PVE, however it will allow people to get nice things very fast. People are basically paying because they want it now. Just like the bestsellers on DDO - tomes, stones of xp, etc.

For the most part I think Neverwinter will be something that will appeal to the casual gamers, people that feel they can't keep up with more complex/grindy mmos, people with more money than time, people that enjoy creating their own content and people that always like to try something new. The foundry system will effectively provide an unlimited amount of content and I generally got better gear in the foundry quests than the cryptic quests because of how the scaling works and the xp bonus they provided which put me way ahead of the standard quest levels.

Big product differentiator for DDO: Customization and unlimited things to obtain and farm
Big product differentiator for Neverwinter: Ease of entry into the game and the foundry

Winner: Both - they will both continue to thrive and do well. Neverwinter will likely get some DDO casual players. Over time some Neverwinter players will migrate to DDO for the deeper end game and more complex character options. In the end there is plenty of room for two D&D games especially when they are so different.

Even though Neverwinter will have more appeal to many new players, I think DDO will have no problem continuing to attract new players. I think the revolving door of free-to-play players that like to dabble in all the games will continue to mean new DDO players will have no problems getting into parties and finding people to quest when starting out.

Well done, I'd say this is a really good and realistic comparison of DDO and Neverwinter! :)

For D&D enthusiasts there is still a third option, which is persistent worlds of Neverwinter Nights 1 and Neverwinter Nights 2. As an example, the release of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition 2-3 months ago brought a lot of new players to the most popular persistent world for NWN 2 called Baldur's Gate: The Sword Coast Chronicles.

Taojeff
02-17-2013, 07:31 AM
I participated in the beta and I believe DDO and Neverwinter to be games that appeal to mostly different people.

DDO is a very complex game with many choices and a significant time investment to build an end game character. The folks that spend 20+ hours on DDO per week will never like Neverwinter. The big disadvantage of DDO for some is that it is so easy to feel like you are behind and can never catch up. It's also easy to build a character only to find out you made a big mistake with your build and correcting it will take forever. Just picture putting everything into a level 20 Ranger Arcane Archer only to find out the capstone doesn't work as advertised and the most effective archer in the game requires 6-12 levels of monk with 10k stars, half elf and 2 levels of a 3rd class. I've been playing the game quite a bit for 2 years and feel as though I'll never caught up to where my characters should be. Yet, I still love the great customization DDO has to offer.

It's rather simple to start playing Neverwinter, hard to make a mistake and I ran through numerous quests without ever needing any of the store purchased items. When I died the quest wasn't a wipe, I just teleported to a point earlier in the quest where I could try again. It's a new game so you won't feel overwhelmed when people start linking gear. It has a less of a grind. And for people that enjoy designing dungeons for their friends and/or participating in their friends dungeons the foundry is quite simply the closest thing that exists to the P&P D&D culture I've ever seen. Expect DDO to have something similar as soon as they can pull it off.

The potential downsides of Neverwinter....lack of end game grind... the power gamer will be decidedly bored very quickly. There is nothing to brag about because everyone will have nice stuff. Secondly, pretty much everything is purchasable with real $ which means a person that throws $500 at the game will be very well geared very quickly. While this makes absolutely no difference in the quests because they are all completable without it, it will create a significant power balance in PVP unless they figure out a way to take the money advantage out of PVP. This exists in DDO as well, but in DDO the impact of $ spend on PVP isn't as significant. Other than PVP, purchasing items with $ will give no real advantage for PVE, however it will allow people to get nice things very fast. People are basically paying because they want it now. Just like the bestsellers on DDO - tomes, stones of xp, etc.

For the most part I think Neverwinter will be something that will appeal to the casual gamers, people that feel they can't keep up with more complex/grindy mmos, people with more money than time, people that enjoy creating their own content and people that always like to try something new. The foundry system will effectively provide an unlimited amount of content and I generally got better gear in the foundry quests than the cryptic quests because of how the scaling works and the xp bonus they provided which put me way ahead of the standard quest levels.

Big product differentiator for DDO: Customization and unlimited things to obtain and farm
Big product differentiator for Neverwinter: Ease of entry into the game and the foundry

Winner: Both - they will both continue to thrive and do well. Neverwinter will likely get some DDO casual players. Over time some Neverwinter players will migrate to DDO for the deeper end game and more complex character options. In the end there is plenty of room for two D&D games especially when they are so different.

Even though Neverwinter will have more appeal to many new players, I think DDO will have no problem continuing to attract new players. I think the revolving door of free-to-play players that like to dabble in all the games will continue to mean new DDO players will have no problems getting into parties and finding people to quest when starting out.

You are mostly incorrect about everything here.

1. You can't know for certain if people who play 20+ hours here will not like Neverwinter. Just because people like one thing that does not prevent them from liking similar or different games. This is rather silly, now if people are trying to judge Neverwinter by conformity then sure, it would fail and vice versa the other way around. I love DDO, been playing since beta, do all my own builds been running 1-6 man raids since way back in the day (2 man titan, 1 man queen, all the way up to short man CiTW). My love of DDO does not prevent me from seeing the complexities and fun of Neverwinter. I know for a fact that a good deal of people from DDO are planning on trying Neverwinter and some have already made up there minds to make it there primary game.

2. There will be more, not less end game in Neverwinter. The beta has only shown levels 1-30 and there is still a ton of Paragon stuff, and they have already said they are going to release Epic levels. I would say there will probably be twice as much content in Neverwinter then DDO 2 months from launch.

Here are the real differences in DDO and Neverwinter.

1. Neverwinter is based on 4e and DDO is based on a 3.5 (both now loosely based).

2. Character customization is much broader in DDO, which is a more free-form system, where as Neverwinter uses trees and class roles more. Both will be changing, DDO with the enhancement trees, and Neverwinter is going to get betting Paragon paths and epic levels. Neverwinter's options are only going to grow more in the next couple years. They will never be what DDO's are now, but it will certainly not be as limiting as the first beta options. (its a new game remember). Remember DDO's 4 enhancements you could get way back when? Were there as many feats? classes, races? Ok moving on...

3. Graphics and game engine are both much better on Neverwinter. This is just an age thing for DDO.

4. UI is better, a lot more modern day MMO amenities like Guild and Event calendars etc.

5. Combat. You get about 8 active abilities to work with along with two buffs in Neverwinter at any one time. You can have many more, but you have to slot them a little like guild wars 2. Both are active combat, DDO's is more mobile but the engine is dated, many of the problems that are not present in Neverwinter. While DDO has more options for casters and hybrid builds, straight melee will find more to do in Neverwinter. Also, Neverwinter's ability combo's, positioning, tells, and effects are all more complex than DDO's. One of the things people complain about in DDO is when mobs finish their attacks after being held or stunned. That is because DDO is really a quasi-turn-based real time system, where things don't really happen in the order they may appear and the animations don't always match up. Neverwinter on the other hand allows you to block a moments notice (if you have the stamina left), dodge is more fluid. You can interrupt attacks. It has that fighting game appeal while still being slow enough to allow thinking strategies.

6. I do agree that it is too easy at the moment, but hopefully so harder content will emerge.

7. Neverwinter has more balance between races and classes so by that measure is more balanced in PvP. Yes i do concede there is a quite a bit of play to win.

8. By all appearances it is much easier to get game currency in Neverwinter then DDO, it is truly free to play. I was getting 10k astral diamonds a day at a casual pace(which you can trade for Zen on market). Still this remains to be seen.

9. The Foundry, biggest selling point hands down. If even 1% of the content is good it will have more then 10x as much content as DDO within a couple months.

10. Warlocks!!!!!! (a clever individual on the forums over there was able to figure out the other two classes and they turned out to be Warlock and Ranger).

Jay203
02-17-2013, 02:08 PM
i think one of the biggest point i'd give NWO is that they don't just give blanket immunities to the mobs. :p

slarden
02-21-2013, 09:47 PM
You are mostly incorrect about everything here.

1. You can't know for certain if people who play 20+ hours here will not like Neverwinter. Just because people like one thing that does not prevent them from liking similar or different games. This is rather silly, now if people are trying to judge Neverwinter by conformity then sure, it would fail and vice versa the other way around. I love DDO, been playing since beta, do all my own builds been running 1-6 man raids since way back in the day (2 man titan, 1 man queen, all the way up to short man CiTW). My love of DDO does not prevent me from seeing the complexities and fun of Neverwinter. I know for a fact that a good deal of people from DDO are planning on trying Neverwinter and some have already made up there minds to make it there primary game.

2. There will be more, not less end game in Neverwinter. The beta has only shown levels 1-30 and there is still a ton of Paragon stuff, and they have already said they are going to release Epic levels. I would say there will probably be twice as much content in Neverwinter then DDO 2 months from launch.

Here are the real differences in DDO and Neverwinter.

1. Neverwinter is based on 4e and DDO is based on a 3.5 (both now loosely based).

2. Character customization is much broader in DDO, which is a more free-form system, where as Neverwinter uses trees and class roles more. Both will be changing, DDO with the enhancement trees, and Neverwinter is going to get betting Paragon paths and epic levels. Neverwinter's options are only going to grow more in the next couple years. They will never be what DDO's are now, but it will certainly not be as limiting as the first beta options. (its a new game remember). Remember DDO's 4 enhancements you could get way back when? Were there as many feats? classes, races? Ok moving on...

3. Graphics and game engine are both much better on Neverwinter. This is just an age thing for DDO.

4. UI is better, a lot more modern day MMO amenities like Guild and Event calendars etc.

5. Combat. You get about 8 active abilities to work with along with two buffs in Neverwinter at any one time. You can have many more, but you have to slot them a little like guild wars 2. Both are active combat, DDO's is more mobile but the engine is dated, many of the problems that are not present in Neverwinter. While DDO has more options for casters and hybrid builds, straight melee will find more to do in Neverwinter. Also, Neverwinter's ability combo's, positioning, tells, and effects are all more complex than DDO's. One of the things people complain about in DDO is when mobs finish their attacks after being held or stunned. That is because DDO is really a quasi-turn-based real time system, where things don't really happen in the order they may appear and the animations don't always match up. Neverwinter on the other hand allows you to block a moments notice (if you have the stamina left), dodge is more fluid. You can interrupt attacks. It has that fighting game appeal while still being slow enough to allow thinking strategies.

6. I do agree that it is too easy at the moment, but hopefully so harder content will emerge.

7. Neverwinter has more balance between races and classes so by that measure is more balanced in PvP. Yes i do concede there is a quite a bit of play to win.

8. By all appearances it is much easier to get game currency in Neverwinter then DDO, it is truly free to play. I was getting 10k astral diamonds a day at a casual pace(which you can trade for Zen on market). Still this remains to be seen.

9. The Foundry, biggest selling point hands down. If even 1% of the content is good it will have more then 10x as much content as DDO within a couple months.

10. Warlocks!!!!!! (a clever individual on the forums over there was able to figure out the other two classes and they turned out to be Warlock and Ranger).

After reading your post I am not sure that we disagree as much as you think we do. My DDO guild leader (and face to face friend) has suggested neverwinter will be a better fit for us (a group of 4 face face to face friends) than DDO for several reasons:

1) our friends that play less will benefit from the more streamlined character building process and ease of entry- less chance to make a bad build.
2) seems less grindy (the new loot and augment slots is nice, but same content, more gear grinding).
3) the guild system is better suited for a small group.
4) the foundry. We like the idea of exploring different people's ideas and making our own.
5) change is good - ddo is starting to feel like work for some of us

However I do think the hardcore DDO players would never enjoy a game like neverwinter. I understand you disagree - that is just my opinion. As you said, it's a new game so they will continue to expand and I acknowledge this could turn out to be a wrong assessment. I really wish nothing but success to both games.

As for difficulty, I found the foundry to be the most challenging quests we did because they scaled to our level. The other quests ended up being below our level because they were accelerating xp so people could level faster. I could probably spend years running just the foundry quests and never get bored. I suspect there will be 1000 quests by year end. Hopefully I'll make a few quests also. I love the idea of actually designing my own quest.

EricKei
04-12-2013, 10:04 AM
I did the 3rd beta weekend...some good, some not so good...

As I posted elsewhere:

Played halfling Rogue, lots of stabbity goodness and aggro avoidance

Game builds on the F2P concept that Turbine has done so well on (at least, as compared to other games...) and refines it. Literally 100% free, according to the creators. No subscriptions, no initial buy price. Everything, including ZEN (online store currency) can be earned in-game and/or on forum, and supposedly everyone can eventually unlock everything.

Combat is fast paced, helped by the fact that you auto-track the nearest enemy when using your basic attack (everything else except for AOE's and the like are targeted). HUGE help.

For those who have NOT played many MMO's -- remember, DDO is not the "standard", it's a successful anomaly (this is not a bad thing!). If DDO is D&D 3e with an MMO wrapped around it, Neverwinter is an MMO with D&D 4e wrapped around it, and an insane amount of attention paid to lore (it takes place at the same time as the newest set of Salvatore books). Set in and around Neverwinter city on the West coast of Faerun.

Oh yeh, things are subject to change as of actual launch yada yada...

Quests are handled standard MMO style. Quest-givers have a yellow ? mark if they have something available, or a ! if they WILL have one eventually. You gain EXP from every mob you kill, as well as from almost every quest.

Leveling is in line with standard MMO conventions -- The level cap is 60; Lv 1~15 are effectively the newbie levels/tutorials, tho they're basically out of the way by level 10, which is when you get your second class-defining power (Stealth for rogues; you get the first such feature at Lv1, which is Sneak Attack for rogues). SA works exactly the same as in DDO: If the enemy isn't paying attention to you, you hit harder. Stealth: has a time limit, certain powers will refill the meter, and special attacks specify in the tooltip if they do NOT break Stealth; many specials get damage/range boosters when you are Stealthed. Note that mobs will still be *aware* that your toon is present if you are in Stealth, they just won't actually do anything about it (they literally stand around with ? marks over their heads )...

More on F2P: As their only way to get $$ for this game is the cash store, their cash store pricing does seem to be a bit excessive; this may change. They offer 3 pre-order packs, with the priciest going for $200 US and including a ton of goodies like a spider mount (and another mount, a unique Companion (basically a Gold Seal hireling, no time limit, who levels and accepts gear/augs), a variant Drow "race" that can only be unlocked via that pack, a bunch of unlocks, a Masterwork item with a removable augment, 2 million in Astral somethingorothers (same concept as DDO shards), and, of course, the icing on the cake, the Robe of Useless Items. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

back to levels -- I hit 27 during the free weekend, if that's any indication of leveling speed. I didn't exactly go grinding quests hardcore, either.

Companions/mounts : Once you finish the Tower District storyline quests (I did it at 16), you gain access to Companions. As I mentioned above, they're basically permanent hirelings. The game is (theoretically) balanced such that you can solo the entire game *except* for certain storyline dungeons by bringing a Companion along. So far, only certain dungeons have forced me into a party (basically the biggest storyline quest for that zone), and they have a handy queueing system to account for that. Once 5 people are in a party, you all get warped in to run it.

They have their own EXP bar and gain "ranks" as their levels. Note that ALL exp you gain is duplicated for them: If you gain 4K exp from a quest reward, so do they. Their only real downside is that you need to send them off for an ever-increasing amount of time to "train" in order to get the ranks -- you always level immediately, but their Rank exp can be banked, if desired. Rank 1-2: 30 seconds training time. Rank 14-15: 30 minutes training time. This time apparently counts down when you are logged off, so you can always just bank a level or 3 and send them to train just before you logoff for the day.

Mounts: Available at lv20. Basic horses are bought with gold, others like armored horses and exotic mounts like flaming hellsteeds are bought with the astral thingies (which you tend to earn over time or you can just buy the damn things with real $). Main purpose is to look cool and give you a run speed boost. Apparently nothing short of a successful enemy attack or knockdown will force you off of your mount when running away, which means you can literally just zip past melee mobs most of the time Attacking or using any other ability also makes you dismount.

Auctions: Didn't mess with. Items are posted with and paid for with the astral currency, NOT gold

Treasure: Random chests found pretty much anywhere are first-come first served, tho they re"spawn" after 10 minutes or so, it seems. Loot from mobs is apparently invisible to non-party members unless you let it sit on the ground for a long time. Said loot when In a party appears to be first come first served in parties, tho gold is auto-split. The party leader can set a "need" or "greed" flag to determine who gets rare and bound items. Boss-room chests allow everyone to loot and get their prizes without waiting. NOTE -- If a quest offers a physical reward (which is almost always) and it ends in a boss fight, your final reward will be the one and only item in said chest, and it will always be class specific. All gear is class-specific, as well. Rogues use daggers and light armor, if they pick up a greatsword or a holy symbol, the icon will be red to indicate that the item is unusable. Some items, like rings, are universal.

Combat and powers: At least as of level 27...You have At-Will powers (read: no cooldown or so short they might as well not have one) -- Lv1 AW is always your basic attack (and yes, you can remove it from your hotbar if you get something you like better), you use the main 2 mouse buttons for this. I forgot the names of these, soooo.. I had a basic (autotracking) attack, throwing knives (12 max, they regenerate 1 every 2 seconds or so), and a flurry attack -- after a brief windup, your toon does something that looks a whole lot like the graphic that appears when you turn on Subtle Backtabbing (mini-teleports), and you hit ten times in about 2-3 seconds -- each attack is weaker than the normal melee attack, but each can cause a stacking Bleeding effect and each hit can crit.

Encounter powers are ones you will use frequently -- cooldowns for mine were in the 8-12 second range. These are assigned to Q, E, and R (Stealth was TAB). At my level, I had mine set to a backstab (+50% when stealthed and does not break stealth), a teleport-backstab (stealth adds range but not damage), and an anti-aggro move that drops a "shadow clone" and makes you tumble backwards. (note -- only rogues can tumble/dodge, afaik). Most mobs -- even undeads -- are fooled by the clone, and it can take a few hits, more than enough to let you take out 3 or 4 normal enemies. Named mobs and tougher variants are another story, but you still have time to thin the herd before they start wailing on you. Daily powers -- These are the more powerful ones - the only limit on their use is building up "action points", different classes get these different ways -- for rogues, successful attacks build it up, so they can usually use these after 2 or 3 packs of enemies. These are things like AOE attacks, infinite stealth for 10 seconds, or rapid teleport-attacks for 10 seconds that auto-track all mobs within range.

Stats, skills, feats -- Very much MMO style. The powers listed above come at pre-set levels, aside from "Paragon Powers" that start at lv30. No skills per se. "Feats" are points that you spend in a manner similar to Borderlands: You start with access to 3 passives, spend X amount of points across those to gain access to the next set, etc. Things like +3/4/5% max HP, Crit chance or crit damage boosts, etc. By level 30, you gain access to ONE of the three Paragon Paths of your choice (the other two get locked out once you choose). These are essentially amped up versions of the prior "feats" as well as new passives with nifty bonuses.

Stats -- Same basic 6 stats, 1 primary stat and 2 secondaries. For Rogue, Dex is primary, str and cha are secondary. The game rolls up stats for you during chara creation, you can reroll as often as you like, but you cannot actually assign them; my guess is that they're working on a point system behind the scenes -- I rerolled a few times to try for decent numbers, and I don't think I ever saw a dex under 17 nor any other stat below 8. It seems to favor the 3 stats you "need", the primary moreso. Race affects these, as well. On halfling, I had +2 dex and +2 to a choice of either int or cha. I wanna say my starting stats were something like 20dex/13str/13con/11int/12wis/14cha. Note that str and con do not seem to be as huge a factor in this game as in DDO, as there is no to-hit stat (if your weapon swing hits the mob, you hit them, period) and HP get ridiculous pretty quickly (1000+ at level 10) -- mobs have similar high numbers). You get 2 more points to assign however you like every 10 levels.

Bonuses from gear all stack -- Power is raw attack damage, Critical is crit chance and damage, Restoration is, well...just what it sounds like. Get it over 100 (not that hard) and you start regaining HP every 3 seconds. The lower your hp (as a % of max), the more hp you regen; higher Regen stat increases this further. Companions auto-regen themselves when not in combat. As a Rogue (read: squishy), my power was in the high 400's and critical was approaching 600 as of my last play session; others were in the 0 ~ 150 range, not enough to provide much of a noticeable boost. Other stats include armor-piercing, movement, and a physical mitigation stat.

Companions addendum -- Available ones I saw included the available classes (Defensive fighter (sword & board, generates extra aggro -- I chose this guy), 2-handed weapon fighter, Control wizard, healer-type, and animals (basically rogues -- best direct damage but they're squishy))

Zones -- Except for the starter zone (which is HUGE), zones are generally laid out as wilderness areas with a safe starting area. Note that mobs that have aggro on you can and WILL chase you right back into those safe zones. The NPCs will help to fight them off, but don't expect them to be very effective. All dungeons are instanced.

One gripe I had that was with the players, not the game (inevitable in any online game) was the whining and *****ing in general ("Zone") chat about the presence of bugs (in an unreleased game...) that had me turn chat off in the main/starter zone -- apparently, there are plenty of people out there who do not comprehend that the purpose of letting people play a Beta is to find and squash as many bugs as possible...

They didn't let people play for free out of the goodness of their hearts, people. These are the same sorts of braindead morons who make death threats to reviewers who DARE to give an 8 out of 10 score to a game they happen to like (see also Uncharted 3) and seem to think that such a score indicates a horrible game.

Sadly, I even saw something similar on their forum -- Cryptic actually held an event at a specific time on Saturday where they asked that as many people as possible log on at once during a specific hour, with the intention of *trying to crash the server* so that they could get a better idea of realistic server capacity. The event worked: it crashed within the hour. One commenter actually posted "This does not bode well for the actual game." ... Really? REALLY? o_O

In all fairness, these idjits did not infest any of the other zones, it would seem Most of the wilderness zones were filled with LFG spam ...from people who apparently could not figure out that "Press K to queue up for a party" means that pressing K will put you into an automatic queue for the party-matching system x.x (It's literally that braindead. Press K, click on the quests you want to party for (you can pick as many as you like that are connected to that zone) and Bob's your uncle. When someone starts a new party, they can (apparently) opt to grab people out of the queue).

But you don't have to take MY word for it...

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/19/neverwinter-class-trailer/ -- rogue trailer (from an earlier beta, it would seem) The 10-hit attack is around the 1:18 mark or a bit after

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/14/neverwinter-control-wizard-trailer/ -- Control Wizard trailer

http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/neverwinter-we-preview-the-f2p-mmo-bringing-add-to-a-new-generation/2/ -- review from PCG

http://nw.perfectworld.com/media/videos -- videos on official site (more recent up top)

Oh yeah, me forgots -- They have a "Foundry" system in place that lets users make their own public quests, building dungeons from the ground up. Some good ones were present already in beta.

Open beta starts April 31, and they've said there will be no character wipes once it's done...So, for all intents and purposes, it's launch. Kinda (tho when the "official" launch is has not been announced)
http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=849741

edit - according to a recent news release, the way you gain powers has been changed to a point-buy system, rather than "you get power X at level Y"

~Der_Mosch
05-02-2013, 02:57 AM
Neverwinter is now in "Open Beta" (aka "released but we want a fall-back argument for stuff that doesn't work"), so everyone can have a try. It won't be a DDO killer for me - I don't see enough complexity or variety in that game for me - but the foundry is a great idea.

Oh, and you might get a flashback or two at the start of the game ;)

~Taeb
05-06-2013, 02:07 AM
personally I am actually becoming more hopeful the more I see about NWO. You see I have played alot of cryptics early works, and can agree with the comment they have had varied success in the industry. They built the foundation for city of heroes which went on to become impo the best MMO ever made for a casual pug experience where being able to easily get along with and interact with others from around the world rarely proved the head ache we often get here in DDO.

They went on to build champions, which holds the title of the first true free form character building MMO, imo wrongfully as DDO thanks to multi classing and the D20 system allows for incredibly flexible characters, which sadly only breeds conflict with the team specialists and creates the heated debates of should clerics be healers, and should everyone be BYOH when its always an option one can choose to build in with minimal impact on an end game build. The one advantage to a game with hard definitions for classes and roles is avoiding all that social grief.

STO though some claim is P2W, from my chats with friends who have given it a chance, even if they didnt stick with it, it was more due to cryptic breaking more often then fixing popular features like the foundry system. Hopefully the price they payed with its beta debut on STO will lead to a better experience for those on NWO.

The fact is the classes do indeed look fun to play, and each with just enough flavor and personal style to generate the altaholic stable of characters I and many others on CoH enjoyed. Likewise the classes all seem capable of being solo centric through build choices, letting them be taken abit out of the box for those needing to fit a more personal play style.

The fact things like mounts and useful companions exist for all players will be a big plus as its easy income through a e store, and further customization in how one appears and can play.

My own biggest pondering is the RP aspect of the game, COH was lore rich and easy to become a part of the world and had strong social hubs like pocket D. Champions has several clubs to socialize in as well.

Im guessing the moonstone lounge and its vip area are meant to be that for NWO and if so is a good sign, as its true most anti RP players in ftp games are total ftp. Those who immerse themselves in their characters and the world they play in usually are happy to invest. So I hope alot of things of interest to RPers like emotes and appearance customization are not neglected. Also a character bio page which gets largely ignored in DDO was used often in CoH and CO and would be nice to see return in NWO.

Overall although I dont know if it will be a direct death blow to DDO, I do see alot of reasons to give NWO a chance and more of my money then turbine has seen since MOTU got my 80+


Can i just say one thing. If City of heroes was their best game then why did they %#&@ it up to get it closed down? thank you very much. let's ruin one of the best games by closing it down gotcha. i played some NWO but honestly i just didnt like it compared to ddo. sure graphics werent bad. the missions were fun. traps poison damage. skirmish's. your toon is very limited in abilities. Hell even in rift you can use all. DDo you can use all. in this game nope your limited. so yeah no thanks.

vegabond1969
05-30-2013, 10:08 AM
Based upon my experiences in NW and my long time love of DDO, I can honestly say that both games will continue on. The pros for DDO is the character creation flexibility, the combat system, and the graphics compared to NW. IMO these things were done horribly in NW, essential point and click. Another thing that DDO has going for it is the diversity of classes, NW has four with a fifth (ranger) coming soon. Now on the flip side, NW has one of the biggest reasons to play, it's setting. DDO should have never been put in Eberron to begin with. I think that was more of a ploy to promote the new world that WoTC was releasing. The second thing that NW has is the Foundry, which I've played around in quite a bit. It has the ability to completely create an entire world campaign system if the creator is willing to take the time.

As far as combat goes in NW though, it sucks. That's all there is to say about it. The Tempest Rogue is the most over powered class I've ever played. Fun to play, but can get a high volume of kills with one shot strikes. The chain attacks are nice, but limited as well. DDO has the better combat system, imo. Character creation in NW is all but non existent. You have a couple of booster that work with two abilities only, All abilities are determined by random rolls, you can not customize this at all. Ability mods are different, Wizards get mods to Dex, Wis, and Chr I believe. On one final note, guild setup in NW requires all the members to be lvl 15 (3 in DDO) and you must have five people minimum to start one. This was a major burr in my saddle, as my wife, daughter, and I have one on DDO with just us and we like it that way. I shouldn't be required to have x amount of people at x level to form or join a guild. DDO wins there. As I said, both games have some good points, combined they would make the perfect DnD MMO, but I'm happy with both the way they are. If I had to choose, DDO would be the winner though, just my 2 coppers.

Feihung
05-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Man...Golden Axe was the bomb! Don't take no swipe at my only remaining working sega genesis game>:(

FalseFlag
05-30-2013, 04:50 PM
but the foundry is a great idea.

Oh, and you might get a flashback or two at the start of the game ;)So far, The Foundry and the web portal character access are the only things NWO has going for it. And yes, you'll get some flashback at the start for sure.


Now on the flip side, NW has one of the biggest reasons to play, it's setting. DDO should have never been put in Eberron to begin with.Plus the fact that Eberron is a far more interesting, much more engaging setting than the Forgotten Realms, which is pretty much the paragon of bland, generic fantasy settings any more. So that "plus" for NWO is bogus. But at the end of the day, it doesnt' matter what the setting is if the game itself is ****. And NWO is ****. While there are a couple ideas in there Turbine should pay homage to, the game sucks. The combat is tremendously boring, the character creation an customization is awful, and the non-Foundry adventure design reminds one of what a 10-year (with no imagination) would create, if he grew up on a railroad, and wanted everyone to be really poor.

NWO looks like a D&D game that was designed by someone who saw the cover of one of the books and then skimmed the Wikipedia entry on D&D. It makes DDO look like a strict by-the-book adaptation (and from me, that's saying an awful lot).

It's a boring, generic **** game in a boring, generic **** setting.

I think it will do quite well.