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lastdrunky
01-31-2013, 12:44 PM
Hello, i play this game for some time but i mostly play casters classes, im looking for a twf build with a rogue splash for traps/hidden doors. Would apreciate your help. maybe 2rog/18ranger?

Edit: I own monk and artificier classes, 32pt build, drow and half-orc, i also will start at lvl4 as my friend is lvl4 too.

Good Questing :)

Therigar
01-31-2013, 01:01 PM
The 1 rogue/19 ranger is fairly popular. No real need for 2 rogue because a) rangers already get evasion, b) rangers get enough skill points to keep rogue skills up anyway and c) you don't get any more SA dice for 2 rogue than you had with 1 rogue.

A lot of people think that Tempest III is not worth taking. This leads to a lot of monk 6/ranger 13 builds. You could take rogue 1 as the other level. These monk builds are usually built for the arcane archer PrE.

You could follow a similar thought with rogue 1/fighter 6/ranger 13. That lets you pick up 4 martial feats and Kensai I. Some people will see this as better than the Tempest III choice.

Overall, the build is pretty straight-forward. High STR, highish INT, highish CON. No need for DEX because the whole TWF line comes free to rangers -- just be sure to take Insightful Reflexes. The highish INT gets you skill points and is also the key stat for a rogue's 2 most important skills -- search and disable device. In spite of threads I've got going in other places, highish CON is an obvious choice.

Personally, I like half-elf or half-orc for the build. Half-elf has the advantage of letting you pick artificer or wizard as the dilettante getting you access to most arcane wands and scrolls. Half-elf also lets you take Human Improved Recovery and Human Versatility. The Versatility is useful for the skill boosts to help you when doing rogue stuff.

lastdrunky
01-31-2013, 01:21 PM
so, i dont own the half-elf race. i tought then in both Dwarf and half-orc as u suggested, the half-orc one i got this:

str 18
dex 12
con 16
int 12
wis 10
cha 6

with 6cha shal i invest in UMD? what are ur suggetions? ty in advance

edit: in the dwarf build shal i put the points in the same way? if i go half-orc what are my main weapons? i like the dwarf as dwarf axes are relatively easy to find

sry if thoose are newbish questions. i just want to have some fun, some good dps, and (somewhat) good trapper skills as i will be soloing mostly with my Barb friend to teach him the game basics before enganging in parties for hard quests


edit2: ive been playing around in DDO Char Planner and got this for the dwarf (1rog/3rgr/1fighter/15rgr)

str 17
dex 11 (maybe take a +1tome later to make it 12?)
con 16
int 14
wis 10
cha 8 (do i rly need 2 points here if i want UMD?)

unbongwah
01-31-2013, 02:11 PM
See my Tempest trapmonkey thread. But, err, apologies in advance for not updating it in a long while. :o

lastdrunky
01-31-2013, 04:09 PM
hello again. so after reading unbongwah thread i played around DDO Char Planner a bit, here is what i got thus far:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

test
Level 5 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(1 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 3 Ranger)
Hit Points: 102
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 4\4
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 7
Will: 0

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 17 18
Dexterity 13 14
Constitution 16 17
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance 5 10
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 4 4
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device 6 10
Haggle 3 3
Heal -1 -1
Hide 1 2
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 7 8
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock 5 9
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 6 11
Spot 3 6
Swim 7 8
Tumble 3 4
Use Magic Device 3 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)




am i doing it right? three things that worries me is Balance, is this balance ok? i think i wont put any point there till the end, other is UMD skill, is it worth investing in it as my Cha is low? My spot skill isnt that great too, worst feeling ever is having a rogue who occasionally forgets were trap is and runs into it killing everyone :S

would love some input on this. ty :)

Snootch
01-31-2013, 07:08 PM
would love some input on this

It sounds like you want a Two-Weapon Fighting (melee) trapster. You might appreciate the Rogue Assassin prestige enhancement line and building with an Elf or a Halfling. :) Then you can go pure class and not worry about your Skills being too low or having to spread out your build points so thinly. Multi-classing (splashing) to exploit low-level class abilities may not be what you are looking for, and the pure class builds get those wonderful Capstone Enhancements. :)

A pure class Rogue Assassin with a decent Intelligence score won't have to worry about trap Skills. But you will want to practice and learn how to play a DEX-based character, as they are different than Max. HP characters.

Take care and have fun. :)


Snootch

EllisDee37
01-31-2013, 07:14 PM
Max your concentration, sacrificing open lock to do it.

Therigar
01-31-2013, 08:50 PM
Max your concentration, sacrificing open lock to do it.

NO!

Bad advice.

Concentration does almost nothing for you whatsoever.

The basic idea of rogue 1/fighter 1/ranger 18 is very solid. Stat distribution is something of a personal preference. A lot of it depends on what assumptions you make about how to improve for your end-game stats.

For example, if you think you are going to eat a +3 tome, wear a +7 CHA item, have a +1 exceptional CHA and a +3 enhanced CHA and carry a +6 CHA skills item then you might want to leave your starting CHA at 6 on that half-orc because you are going to push your UMD to 23 (ranks) + 5 (20 CHA w gear) + 6 (CHA skill item) = 34 before you ever use a buff or UMD item or anything else. And, Heal is a no fail on a UMD of 39+.

OTOH, if you aren't going to do any (or most) of those things then you might want your CHA to be higher. ;)

Now, personally, I am against putting even 1 build point into CHA for the purpose of helping out UMD. I'm of the opinion that you should plan for all that other stuff and just do the hard work to get it. But, each player is different.

I'm also of the opinion that you really don't need any stat that isn't directly helping your character. So, if you are not using it for some key skill or to unlock some key ability you should not put build points into it.

An example of this, IMO, is DEX. You absolutely do not need any points in DEX. Reflex saves and open locks are the only things you are going to use DEX for. You can use the Insightful Reflexes feat to swap your INT modifier for your DEX modifier on reflex saves. You can put skill points into open locks or get gear and thieves tools and skill boosts for that. So there's no reason to put points into DEX.

OTOH, you are going to use INT for search, disable device and to get the skill points you need to keep cross-class skills topped up when you are taking your non-rogue levels. To me this means you want your INT to be as high as it can reasonably get without going crazy with build points.

You want to two-weapon fight and you get that whole feat line for free with ranger. You want to do the maximum amount of damage. To me that says you want every point of STR that you can get. But, you can go a bit crazy with that too.

Remember that the last 2 stat points, when you take a stat to its maximum number, costs you 6 build points. But, the value out of those last 2 stat points is very small. With STR you spend 6 build points for +1 to hit/damage. That's not a great return on the investment when the 2 points before that cost 4 build points and gave the same +1. And, the 6 points before that gave you +3 for a total of 6 build points.

So, if it were me I would choose one of these two stat structures.

1) 18 STR/8 DEX/16 CON/14 INT/8 WIS/6 CHA -- this choice leaves you with 2 build points to put in DEX/WIS/CHA whichever you think is most needed.

2) 18 STR/8 DEX/14 CON/16 INT/8 WIS/6 CHA -- this choice leaves you with no leftover build points.

Advantages: 1) gives you 20 more HP at L20 and a +1 modifier to some stat while 2) gives you 20 more skill points at L20 (1 per level). If it were me I would go with 2) but that is a decision you should make for yourself.

Skills -- you want to maximize the following skills: balance, search, disable device and UMD. After that it is all a matter of personal preferences.

With a 14 INT you will be able to do the critical skills, and only those, during your ranger levels and you'll do less than that during your fighter levels. With 16 INT you'll be able to do those critical skills and have 2 skill points left over to put into other things if you want.

You'll still fall short during your fighter level but the extra skill points during your ranger levels will let you make up the difference.

Your leveling plan isn't bad but I would go rogue 1/ranger 6/fighter 1/ranger 12 if it were me.

As a half-orc with a fighter splash you will have 1 fighter and 7 regular feats (plus ranger favored enemy feats). I would take exotic weapo: khopesh or dwarven axe for the fighter feat. For the regular feats I would take toughness, dodge, mobility, spring attack, power attack, oversized two-weapon fighting and cleave.

There is a reason for all of these.

Khopesh is the best one-handed weapon in the game most of the time. Dwarven axe is the best one-handed weapon in the game most of the rest of the time and not too far behind khopesh when khopesh is better. Only a very small amount of the time is some other weapon better than one of these two. So, for weapon choice I would absolutely go with one of these two. And, personally, I'd go with khopesh.

Toughness is almost a given for every build and most especially for melee builds.

Dodge, mobility and spring attack are requirements for the tempest prestige enhancement. You have no option there at all.

Oversized two-weapon fighting is one of many feats that will qualify tempest 3. It is probably the most useful of the feats because with it your two-weapon penalty will have dropped from -8 to -4. You'll have high STR so you won't really notice these penalties most of the time. But, it may matter on some epic quests at the higher difficulty levels.

Power attack, cleave and great cleave are needed to get to the epic feat overwhelming critical. You will get 2 feat choices when you are at epic levels and those should be overwhelming critical and precision. At L21 you take great cleave and at L24 you take overwhelming critical.

Concerning stat increases every 4 levels, they all go into STR. Not even a discussion there.

Concerning enhancements, lots of choices but the obvious things are those that are prerequisites (which are very few) and those that help you to either be a better rogue (like ranger skill boost) or that give bonuses in some other ways to your combat (like half-orc power attack).

You'll notice, going back to my original NO!, that with 16 INT at L1 you have a lot of skill points to start with. Then on your ranger levels you'll have a couple of skill points left over after the critical skills. I'd put several into spot, jump and open locks -- also hide and move silently. I'd also put 4 into bluff and maybe a few more there before you run the Delera's chain (although that might be enough on its own or with a bluff item). After that it is up to you.

But, as I said at the top, concentration, IMO is the worst choice of those remaining and I would not spend any points there.

Jingwei
01-31-2013, 11:39 PM
I'll argue against maxing strength. Going from 16 to 18 strength is 6 build points, but only +1 to damage. This probably isn't worth spending the 6 build points.

Even if you are doing this as a first character, you can start at str 16 and only need a +1 str tome and all level ups into strength to get to base str 23 (at lvl 24) for overwhelming critical.

As for concentration, if you plan to eventually have enough UMD for no fail healing scrolls, realize that concentration is pretty much needed to use them in combat, since quicken doesn't work on scrolls, but concentration does.

Also think insightful reflexes is not worth a feat slot. At best you are looking at 8 dex vs 14 base int. Meaning you only gain 3 points of reflex save from the feat. But you are more likely to have a dex boosting item on all the time than you are an int boosting item, so really you don't gain anything. If building for reflex save, consider going str 16, dex 14, taking lightning reflexes as your prereq feat for tempest III, and then wearing a dex boosting item like the treads of falling shadow.

FrozenNova
02-01-2013, 02:24 AM
One of the biggest draws of ranger is its access to cures. A competent ranger rarely needs external healing. If you don't have a spare feat for quicken, then concentration is necessary in order to take advantage of this aspect of your character.

Therigar
02-01-2013, 07:18 AM
I'll argue against maxing strength. Going from 16 to 18 strength is 6 build points, but only +1 to damage. This probably isn't worth spending the 6 build points.

Even if you are doing this as a first character, you can start at str 16 and only need a +1 str tome and all level ups into strength to get to base str 23 (at lvl 24) for overwhelming critical.

As for concentration, if you plan to eventually have enough UMD for no fail healing scrolls, realize that concentration is pretty much needed to use them in combat, since quicken doesn't work on scrolls, but concentration does.


One of the biggest draws of ranger is its access to cures. A competent ranger rarely needs external healing. If you don't have a spare feat for quicken, then concentration is necessary in order to take advantage of this aspect of your character.

I'm just going to be brutal about this.

Jingwei is right that there isn't a lot to be gained from 18 vs 16 STR and you can certainly plan on reaching the requirements for OC by using tomes. This does save 6 build points. And, while I talk about using insightful reflexes in the build outline I didn't use it. So, going with 16 STR and boosting DEX to 14 isn't a bad idea. I think this is a good catch and smart modification.

However, all the talk about healing and using scrolls during combat is just wrong. If you are needing to do that then you are doing a lot, not just something but a lot of things, wrong. I cannot think of a single quest, ever, where I have needed to do that. And, I have several characters that are capable of using heal scrolls. But, I cannot remember ever needing to use them in the middle of combat while in a place where I was taking damage.

First, CSW wands are faster. A switch to shield and wand, shield blocking and wand whipping is massively effective. Second, when that doesn't work, running from the fight while using the wand, then finding a safe place to heal back up works.

It really isn't my problem that other players insist on sticking it out when the clerics or favored souls cannot keep up with the healing. If I have to self heal then I get to choose how and when to do that. Moving out of harms way first is the prudent thing to do. Standing around and taking damage isn't.

Third, even if a player insists on being able to scroll heal during combat, 90% of the time this isn't what they will be doing. Instead, they heal up after the combat is over and before moving on to the next encounter.

Bottom line is that you are wasting skill points for something that you a) do not need at all if you are remotely competent and b) are rarely going to use even if you are not.

Both quicken and concentration are wasted on rangers. Period.

Instead of taking the "I'm new so I should be prepared because I'm going to play badly" approach to things take the "I'm new so I need to learn how to play smartly so that I can play well" approach. Does that mean that, as a new player, you will misjudge and say to yourself, "I should have taken quicken/concentration, curse you Therigar!" You bet. :eek:

But, you will learn from that experience and then you'll be all, "Therigar was so smart. I'm so glad I listened to him. Thank you Therigar." :D

Just learn now to play well and don't get sucked into this mind set that you have to do things the dumb way because that is what everyone else does. ;)

lastdrunky
02-01-2013, 10:29 AM
Hey again. Ty for all the input and all the help. Very nice too see people eager to help the newcomers :)
I agree with Therigar, concentration wouldnt help me much as im more of a "wand healer", as i said im not entirely new to the game, i know the quests very well and i'm somewhat a strategic player other then lets enter this room and see what happens. However Therigar build has a flaw, ill need at least 13Dex to dodge->mobility->springAttack, so ill maybe lower Int/Str in favor of a bit of Dex.
That said ill try around some builds and see what works better with my VetII status, nothing like putting in practice all the theory right?

Much apreciated for all your help and time, and see you around, as always, HAVE FUN and good ridance :)

Therigar
02-01-2013, 11:47 AM
However Therigar build has a flaw, ill need at least 13Dex to dodge->mobility->springAttack, so ill maybe lower Int/Str in favor of a bit of Dex.

:o I make that mistake a lot actually. :mad:

EllisDee37
02-01-2013, 01:49 PM
I agree with Therigar, concentration wouldnt help me much as im more of a "wand healer",He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Ranger self-healing is solid; my ranger's cure serious self-lands for 250 hp at the cost of 22 sp. This is rock-solid self-healing, far moreso than wands could ever be.

He also makes it sound like he always has a divine strapped to his back, which is a shame because a ranger shouldn't ever need a divine outside of raid boss fights.

While my ranger can easily umd heal scrolls he almost never does. Self-healing via cure serious and rejuvenation cocoon is plenty to keep you going. Though I'd be in far worse shape if I dumped concentration, which I know through firsthand experience since I dumped concentration on his first life. Maxing it on his second life, the difference is night and day.

Having to run away from every fight to hide behind a corner so I can heal without archers interrupting me sucks. Hard.

Therigar
02-01-2013, 02:15 PM
He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Ranger self-healing is solid; my ranger's cure serious self-lands for 250 hp at the cost of 22 sp. This is rock-solid self-healing, far moreso than wands could ever be.

;)

I appreciate these responses. They show an eagerness.

The biggest thing going on here is a lack of understanding when and how to use the self healing. If you are going to put yourself in a situation where you need to do that while being pelted with arrows or hit by mobs that's great.

I think I'm pretty clear that, IMO, that sort of play is sloppy, bad play from the outset. If you think it is the smart way to play then by all means play like that. But, IMO, there is a better way. :)

I encourage players to discover that better way of playing. Because, relying on the poorer way gets you killed in quests -- every character rolls a 1 sooner or later. And, it seems like a law that it happens when it is most hurtful.

Learning to do it the other way never suffers from that problem. :D

EllisDee37
02-01-2013, 02:20 PM
I think I'm pretty clear that, IMO, that sort of play is sloppy, bad play from the outset. If you think it is the smart way to play then by all means play like that. But, IMO, there is a better way. :)Yes, you've made your position quite clear. It boggles the mind that you think self-healing melees shouldn't be able to self-heal in combat. Worse, you think doing so is evidence of sloppy play, that somehow only being able to heal outside of combat is superior? Truly mindboggling.

The only sense I can make of it is that you are against BYOH, believing that most of your healing should come from divines.

unbongwah
02-01-2013, 02:55 PM
My view is you don't take Concentration and/or Quicken for when things are going well; you take them for when things are going pear-shaped and you don't have the luxury of, e.g., waiting on the divine to heal you or disengaging from combat long enough to heal yourself. "Hope for the best, plan for the worst," as the old saying goes. :) A Tempest III can easily afford to max Concentration if it so chooses; I'd rather have it than not these days. Quicken is a bit iffier on Tempest III, though, since you're fairly pressed for feats; I would say it boils down to whether you want to use your leftover feats to boost your DPS (e.g., CL/GC/OC) or your self-healing (Quik+Max and/or Emp Heal). [If you choose the latter, you'll also want a Raiyum Torc and/or Con Opp GS item to regen SPs on hits.]

OldCoaly
02-01-2013, 03:27 PM
.... Though I'd be in far worse shape if I dumped concentration, which I know through firsthand experience since I dumped concentration on his first life. Maxing it on his second life, the difference is night and day.

What is your typical Concentration (http://ddowiki.com/page/Concentration) skill while in combat?

What is the least amount of damage you can sustain and not fail your Concentration check?

In challenging content, how often are you likely to see that amount of damage and not more?

EllisDee37
02-01-2013, 03:30 PM
What is your typical Concentration (http://ddowiki.com/page/Concentration) skill while in combat?

What is the least amount of damage you can sustain and not fail your Concentration check?

In challenging content, how often are you likely to see that amount of damage and not more?In epic elite, your choices are quicken or run and hide. In everything below that concentration works quite well.

Note that Therigar is arguing that quicken is also stupid:
Both quicken and concentration are wasted on rangers. Period.
[...]
all the talk about healing and using scrolls during combat is just wrong. If you are needing to do that then you are doing a lot, not just something but a lot of things, wrong.

I missed this the first time:
First, CSW wands are faster. A switch to shield and wand, shield blocking and wand whipping is massively effective. Second, when that doesn't work, running from the fight while using the wand, then finding a safe place to heal back up works.Ha! Wands are faster?! Are you just messing with us?

OldCoaly
02-02-2013, 07:51 AM
In epic elite, your choices are quicken or run and hide. In everything below that concentration works quite well.

I'm not convinced that Concentration is meaningful, even outside Epic Elite.



Concentration (CON)

Allows you a chance to continue casting a spell after being damaged or otherwise interrupted.

When you take damage you roll a D20 + your Concentration score against a difficulty class of 10 + the damage received + the level of the spell you are trying to cast.

If "Concentration +1 (you roll a 1 ) > 10 + Damage + Spell Level" you don't fail.

or
Concentration +1 (you roll a 1 ) - 10 - 4 (Cure Serious) > Damage

Simplified
Concentration -13 > Damage


What's a reasonable-to-expect Concentration score?
+23 Ranks
+10 Ability Mod
+4 Improved Concentration Enhancements
+2 Luck
+4 GH
+15 item
=====
+58

At level 20, any time your incoming damage is > 45 (after reductions from PRR and perhaps StoneSkin), you may fail Concentration, and any time incoming damage is > 65 you will fail. Realistically, this will be lower as most people will not commit a body slot to a Concentration item or Enhancement Points to Improved Concentration.

It seems that if you are in a situation where things are going pear-shaped and you need an uninterrupted, in-combat CSW, you'll be taking damage this high or higher in the amount of time a non-Quickened CSW takes to cast.

More directly, if you intend to self-heal reliably through "pear-shaped" scenarios, Concentration is too unreliable and you need Quicken, and for the situations where you don't need Quicken, you can prevent interruption by not taking damage for the amount of time the spell takes to cast.


I think it's likely that on the second life EllisDee is better at managing agro and mitigating damage than they were on the first life and that experience and skill are much more meaningful to avoiding interruption than maxed ranks in Concentration.

EllisDee37
02-02-2013, 12:53 PM
I'm not convinced that Concentration is meaningful, even outside Epic Elite.Have you tried it?

Your breakdown is mostly correct in that my melees' concentration is in the 50s. I do make it a point to slot in a concentration item; crafted goggles with LGA health on my ranger, superior false life cove hat on my pally. You're forgetting greensteel exceptional skills bonus and +1 per epic level, but it ends up roughly the same. I don't spend any AP on it, though, for sure.


I think it's likely that on the second life EllisDee is better at managing agro and mitigating damage than they were on the first life and that experience and skill are much more meaningful to avoiding interruption than maxed ranks in Concentration.Your final conclusion couldn't be more wrong. I heal in the middle of combat. Heck, it's almost to the point where I only heal in the middle of combat, rarely between fights. I also don't wait until it's an emergency. When I'm down a couple hundred hp I heal in the middle of my attack animation without moving. A great majority of the time, it heals me back to full and I resume fighting.

If it fails, I still have most of my hp bar left so I try again. If I ever fail twice in a row, I consider it non-viable and simply jump backwards to heal for the rest of that fight.

If you're accustomed to waiting until you have <100 hp before you start trying to heal, I wouldn't find concentration to be viable. If, instead, you heal when you've lost about as many hp as your heal with give back, you end up being able to do most of your healing in-combat without moving (or slowing down your quest) with little if any issue.

The times I remember concentration simply not cutting it were in elite acute delirium for bravery in a full party of six; those xoriat renders hit hard. Also the goristro boss fight in trial by fury, and the giant demon thing in phase 4 or 5 of sealing the rift. Both on epic hard.

Other than that, I heal in-combat without slowing my roll and the vast majority of the time I heal up fine. The speed difference between just hitting the heal button vs running away, switching to a scroll or wand, healing, switching back to your weapons, and then returning to fight is enormous.

The other point of interest is that 50+ concentration is essentially no-fail vs any archer in the entire game below EE. I can't imagine my ADQ solo runs would have gone well on my pally if I had dumped concentration. ("Well" being relative; having to damage her enough to get her to come over with nothing but a thrower stinks.) That alone makes it worth it, since it's far easier to avoid a melee attack than it is to avoid archers.

EDIT: Just checked in-game. My pally's concentration is 62, my ranger's is 58. I can provide breakdowns if you like.

EllisDee37
02-02-2013, 01:28 PM
It seems that if you are in a situation where things are going pear-shaped and you need an uninterrupted, in-combat CSW, you'll be taking damage this high or higher in the amount of time a non-Quickened CSW takes to cast.That's probably true, but in most of those cases, the incoming damage is that high or higher because it's a bunch of smaller attacks that add up, like say the demon queen. She's hitting you with 6 khopeshes at a time while a bunch of archers are plinking away. Or maybe a half-dozen drow have surrounded you in the underdark.

In these situations, mid-50s or better concentration approaches no-fail because concentration rolls are against individual attacks, not aggregate incoming damage.

In any case, I view it as self-evident that if you're taking as much or more damage as you can recover spamming your best healing options, there's no time left over to attack so standing your ground is an unwinnable proposition anyway. Meaning, in that scenario the failure rate of concentration isn't really the key issue.



More directly, if you intend to self-heal reliably through "pear-shaped" scenarios, Concentration is too unreliable and you need Quicken, and for the situations where you don't need Quicken, you can prevent interruption by not taking damage for the amount of time the spell takes to cast.Keep in mind that the original claim wasn't that concentration is unreliable. The claim was that both concentration and quicken are useless on a ranger because if you ever need to heal while taking any damage you don't know how to play the game.

Kinerd
02-02-2013, 02:17 PM
However, all the talk about healing and using scrolls during combat is just wrong. If you are needing to do that then you are doing a lot, not just something but a lot of things, wrong. I cannot think of a single quest, ever, where I have needed to do that. And, I have several characters that are capable of using heal scrolls. But, I cannot remember ever needing to use them in the middle of combat while in a place where I was taking damage.

First, CSW wands are faster. A switch to shield and wand, shield blocking and wand whipping is massively effective. Second, when that doesn't work, running from the fight while using the wand, then finding a safe place to heal back up works.

It really isn't my problem that other players insist on sticking it out when the clerics or favored souls cannot keep up with the healing. If I have to self heal then I get to choose how and when to do that. Moving out of harms way first is the prudent thing to do. Standing around and taking damage isn't.Running away from aggroed monsters is the "dumb way", not the other way around. You prevent your group from being able to separate the aggro or otherwise do damage, which has the double effect of prolonging the danger and frustrating your group.

Running far enough away to find a safe spot means either perching or leashing, the second of which returns the monsters to full health and causes the same double effect as above.

If you only need to heal when not taking damage, you could by definition suffice with CSW pots, and you would decry UMD just as much.

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I think what you are doing is over-responding to what you feel is an over-emphasis on BYOHing, and that while your true position is closer to the middle than this ridiculous extreme, you are trying to illustrate by analogy the error of excess, but what is actually happening is you look silly.