PDA

View Full Version : Are(Is?) 216HP for a Dwarven Arti too low?



Brendae
01-26-2013, 11:11 AM
Today I was Pugging and someone who was a really good player start talking to me about how 216HP wasn't enough for my level 13 Dwarven Arti. He obviously knew what he was talking about and was very polite about it.

I was a bit taken aback because that particular toon has a base Con of 16 and a total Con of 23. I also took the Toughness feat. Other than a False Life item (Which I don't really have a slot for.) I really can't think of much else I can do to increase my HP (Except for possibly taking a few Dwarven Toughness enhancements.)

I would just like a few more opinions. Is 216HP really too low? Should I be concerned about the toon or is that particular player maybe over-emphasizing how squishy he is?

Vissarion
01-26-2013, 11:19 AM
216 HP is adequate for a level 13 Arti. There are certainly ways to improve it, but I reckon that the player was reflecting a perception borne from how high some players and classes can pump their HP during the leveling process.

By the time you get to higher levels you should find room for a False Life item, at least a couple toughness enhancements, and potentially a Minos Legens if you have Necro IV, but you're doing fine so far.

verad
01-26-2013, 11:19 AM
I thought artys were range attackers and buffers....
When did they need copious amounts of HP?
I guess if your some weird arty tank build then yes you may need more?

Did you die 5 times during the quest?
Or was this one of those I have more hp than you so you must be playing wrong?

Don't worry some players get upset if your not playing the way they play.
I missed that memo to....my tank has 1800 hp and someone told me I had too many.
Too many awesomness...

If your a NON-tr you may not have your standard shroud 45 hp item and may lack
crafting to be running around with that sweet 30 hp false life item.
You may not have that crazy level 80 guild with your 20 hp guild slot hps...

Unless your dieing all through the quest or getting 1-2 shotted your hps are just
fine.

V

Ivan_Milic
01-26-2013, 11:40 AM
You might have problems in traps if you pure,but otherwise if you know how to play dont worry what other people say.

FuzzyDuck81
01-26-2013, 12:07 PM
At level 13, that's not amazing but certainly not particularly bad. As you level more your gear will change & you'll be able to fit some more bits & pieces in too, so don't worry about it too much, just play smart.

Gremmlynn
01-26-2013, 12:23 PM
I wont comment rather your particular hp amount is right or not. But hp's are something everyone should put some though towards. Haven't taken any toughness enhancements? The first two levels are generally well worth the cost compared to what else those points could be used for. Same goes for fitting in con, false life and toughness items.

The game offers a lot of options, but not so many that these are usually taking the place of something more useful.

gphysalis
01-26-2013, 12:38 PM
Your hp is fine, assuming that you are shooting stuff with a crossbow, and not using a sword or something...

AbyssalMage
01-26-2013, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't call that bad at all for a level 13.
Toughness Feat + Racial Toughness I & II + 4 Con item and/or False Life item + Minos/Toughness item should be fine for the level.

Maybe he was worried about you disarming traps on Hard/Elite? As an experienced player maybe he thought you had a GS item? Like everyone said, wouldn't lose sleep over it :)

Ryiah
01-26-2013, 01:00 PM
Is 216HP really too low? Should I be concerned about the toon or is that particular player maybe over-emphasizing how squishy he is?

Don't be too concerned unless you're dying often. As AbyssalMage stated, just get the basics and you should be fine.

Orratti
01-26-2013, 01:40 PM
I'm not sure what the end game hps for everyone needs to be. If you feel you have plenty then you do have plenty. No one likes dying and if you are dying alot in comparison to everyone else then you'll notice and start asking what is wrong instead of wondering if there is something wrong.

Traps without evasion you will need alot of hit points to survive and you will still have to make your save to do so. I made it to 20 with under 400 hps on my repeater rogue and never had to really worry about it. I'm pretty sure now though that I will want at least 500 just because everything from 20 on dies slower and has time to put out some damage.

Yes, I believe I could easily survive with less, but I like a bit of a buffer. For me that is going to mean TRing. Basically you want to have a con item and a greater false life item and better items are of course better. Another 50-100+ hit points off of just items is well worth equipping them and of course con items raise your fort save and that helps alot as well. Toughness is overrated as more than a single feat to me, unless I'm not up to date on the rules and taking multiple toughnesses open up extra feats or enhancements that taking a single doesn't.

All of this is strictly opinion of course.

FranOhmsford
01-26-2013, 02:52 PM
If you haven't taken a SINGLE Toughness Enhancement {Just the Base Feat} and you haven't got a False Life item {of any type} on AND you don't have a Guild Augment HP item or Greensteel HP item!

I'd absolutely LOVE to know how you got 216HP on an Arti at Lvl 13!

I've seen plenty of D6 hp characters at this level with FAR less hp than this!

13 x 6 = 78
13 x 6 {Con of 23} = 78
Heroic = 20
Toughness Feat = 15

191!

nibel
01-26-2013, 03:36 PM
+20 Racial toughness = 211. There are 5 mysterious HP there, probably a lesser false life add-on in a primary item.

You are fine for a level 13. My first capped rogue had ~260 HP at level 20.

FranOhmsford
01-26-2013, 03:40 PM
+20 Racial toughness = 211. There are 5 mysterious HP there, probably a lesser false life add-on in a primary item.

You are fine for a level 13. My first capped rogue had ~260 HP at level 20.


I really can't think of much else I can do to increase my HP (Except for possibly taking a few Dwarven Toughness enhancements.)


Note: NOT a few MORE!

nibel
01-26-2013, 05:31 PM
Then +20 from Minos? If that is the case, 3 AP for 20 HP is very cheap and doable. Actually, he can even get Dwarven Constitution I for extra 13 HP too, since his Con is odd.

Blue100000005
01-27-2013, 11:24 PM
I have a lvl 12 arty with 150HP, almost never die. If I do its cause the mobs cut through the melee and got to me.
There is no reason for an arty to be a tank. Remember, these characters get i think 1d6 hit die per level.

People just want to tell you how to run your character. I would rather put a few powerups in HP and still have time for other skills instead of all HP and no abilities.

EllisDee37
01-28-2013, 08:33 AM
As long as you're confident in your ability to twitch past traps to get to their control boxes, you should be fine. I would feel too low with that, but I'm very HP-conscious. (My wizard/rogue has ~300 HP @ 13-14.)

I'm wondering what your gear loadout is that you can't fit in a false life item, though. Maybe a dusk heart? It gives improved false life and 10% perma-blur, and is unbound. Probably can find one in the ah for a reasonable price.

In terms of artie gear for your level range, Wind Howler Bracers are full of win. Shaman's Beads might be nice, and the Mire set is great for anyone.

Charononus
01-28-2013, 08:39 AM
The only problem you're likely to have is traps with that hp. If you make a mistake dodging the traps and get hit there are some fairly deadly ones at that level.

Paleus
01-28-2013, 08:55 AM
216 HP is too low if you use HP as a buffer for poor play. But otherwise you're doing fine at level 13, even ahead of the curve for new players. And artificers have the advantage of a playstyle that actively avoids getting hit, aka operation run in cirlces around a blade barrier (2 lvls from now) pewpewing while additionally having great self healing options.

Its most likely the person making the recommendation is used to running with TR circles where top level gear at this level includes greensteel HP items for 45 additional points, and running with other hp gear is just assumed to be easy to acquire (which it kind of is, but a little less so for new players).

Gear that you can acquire now with a little work includes greater false life for an additional 30 and a minos legens for an additional 20 from toughness (assuming you dont have both). I would also suggest at least taking 1 or 2 of the dwarven toughness enhancements. Thats a boost of about 10% HP for you for 3 action points, which is honestly worth it.

Infant
01-28-2013, 08:57 AM
I have a lvl 12 arty with 150HP, almost never die. If I do its cause the mobs cut through the melee and got to me.
There is no reason for an arty to be a tank. Remember, these characters get i think 1d6 hit die per level.

But this is exactly why I would want higher HP on any toon. This, and AOE spells/attacks and traps, which I have to jump through (on an Arti, sometimes), but can't dodge (beacause I don't know them well enough).

@OP: Few numbers of which sources of HP are obtainable @13 (in brackets things which might be out of your reach now):

Con: 16+ 6 item + 2 racial (+ 2tome +2 ship) = 24-28, i.e. modifier between +7 and +9.
HP: 13x6 arti lvls + 20 starting HP + 30 GFL + 20 racial enhancements + 15 Toughness feat + 13x7 Con modifier (+20 HP Minos Legens + 2x13 additional Con + 45 HP Greensteel + 20 HP Guild slot) = 254 HP (365 HP).

So yes, your HP are a little too low, but not too bad. You are not super squishy, but you might have few problems in traps or if you pull aggro unintentionally (or against random aggro monsters).

The sources of HP listed above can be easily fit in in any Arti build/equipment (except, maybe, the guild slot), if accessible. You shouldn't have any problems fitting in a GFL item.

Zenako
01-28-2013, 09:13 AM
Those sound plenty fine for most purposes. I know my mid level (currently 9th - Wikiko on Sarlona) has a lot of bonus HP resources (ablative Armor, Stoneskin, etc) that can stop or mitigate a lot of physical damage. Toss some Prot Elements spells and you block most of that type damage. Twink up your repeater and you have a mini deathstar on your arm and mobs shred with abandon. Drop a Flame turrent in the middle and many mobs divert to that and there are tons of battles (usually running in a three man group on elite so scaling is not a real significant issue for making runs easy), where I can get thru it without even getting hurt. (Other two in that group are a pure cleric and a druid, kind of a funky trio).

I do have an improved false life and 190 at 9th. Assuming you are in any sort of guild you can get some extra HP for fairly small effort if you find a suitably slotted piece of gear to help too.

Therigar
01-28-2013, 10:00 AM
You might have problems in traps if you pure,but otherwise if you know how to play dont worry what other people say.

^^^
This. ;)

You'll find that there are a lot of opinions about HP and, most often, they are wrong. :eek:

Things you should worry about more -- heavy fortification and deathblock. A lot of players get both from the Necropolis quests. Necro III lets you upgrade a necklace (http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_Flame_Nugget) with deathblock, protection from evil and some negative spell absorption. Necro IV lets you get Minos Legens (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Minos_Legens) from tapestry turn ins.

You can also gain 10 HP from Argonnessen favor if you run enough Gianthold quests on elite (which you should do anyway because it is decent XP).

With artificer it is always an issue if you need to get thru a trap in order to disable it. Evasion is your friend but you don't get evasion as an artificer. You have to weigh whether it is worth missing out on the capstone to splash in 2 rogue levels for that evasion. And, you have to be honest about what your reflex save is going to be (I'll assume you either have a high DEX or are using the Insightful Reflex feat).

TBH, on most heroic elite quests even high HP might not save you. And on epic elite it is hard to see how you'll get enough HP in any case to make it thru traps to the other side (except by great Mario skills or a huge streak of luck). Evasion can help.

Then again, you can roll a 1 and it won't matter anyway. :eek:

Assuming you are range and spell focused so that you're not in the middle of melee you probably don't need to do much more than just work for whatever HP augments you can get.

SirValentine
01-28-2013, 11:47 AM
216 HP is too low if you use HP as a buffer for poor play.HP are not just a buffer for someone's poor play. They're a buffer for EVERYTHING: rolling a 1 on a save, getting a lag spike, not having memorized all trap locations, some jerk in party aggroing dozens of mobs and diplo-ing them on to you, or whatever.A high HP total is definitely not the ONLY important thing, nor even the MOST important thing, but it's very much AN important thing.

Nedime
01-28-2013, 12:48 PM
As said, your hit points are correct. Not optimal but correct.
The thing you could worry about is your self healing. WF race is the easy button because even if you have low hp you can repair yourself very well.
Now as a dwarf, maybe you rely on scrolls/wands ? This can be ok if you know how to manage aggro. But it's not optiomal, especially on higher level quests where you can suffer great amount of damage in one hit.
I've tried the construct essence and wasn't really satisifed about it. You get neither good repairs nor good heals.
For my second life I chose WF and went 18 artie 2 monks so I have evasion, very good saves and 2 bonus feats (which is far better than 2 rogue levels).

If you wish to stay pure artie, then maybe you can try something to greatly increase your reflex saves (so you don't get OS by an end-game trap). Remember that items from Harbinger of Madness like Parasitic Breastplate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Parasitic_Breastplate) can be upgraded in altar of insanity for a +10 reflex save.

Cap_Man
01-28-2013, 12:48 PM
Your HP seems a tad on the low side but nothing to reroll over. There are lots of good suggestions in this thread but I haven't seen any one mention 'Displacement' yet.

Assuming you've been keeping up on your UMD, you should be able to use Teleport scrolls with a good rate of success. Go buy some and then teleport to the 'Portable Hole'. Go to the first room on your left and the gal behind the counter will sell you Displacement scrolls.

The Displacement scrolls are cheap and easy to cast (UMD: 28 .. I think). Normally, the scrolls only last for 30 seconds but with the Artie natural abilities you will get more. At level 11 I'm casting these and they last for 54 seconds.

Since I can fail the UMD check, I usually cast these before going into combat. Or cross my fingers and hope for the best in combat when things go south. ;)

I started using these when I solo'd and found I was getting picked off by mob archers. So Stone Skin + Alabative Armour + Displacement works well to offset lower HP. :cool:

Nedime
01-28-2013, 02:29 PM
Your HP seems a tad on the low side but nothing to reroll over. There are lots of good suggestions in this thread but I haven't seen any one mention 'Displacement' yet.


True that. If you are patient enough to craft a HP Green Steel with aspect of smoke : +45 hp, perma-blur AND a displacement clickie.

icekinslayer
01-28-2013, 02:46 PM
216 HP is too low if you use HP as a buffer for poor play.

I stopped reading here. Ignorant opinions are still opinions though, I suppose. Why would you not want the most hp you can get out of your toon. Everyone rolls a 1 from time to time, everyone lags from time to time. Wouldn't it be nice if you had a buffer in hp to keep you on your feet?

psykopeta
01-28-2013, 03:04 PM
True that. If you are patient enough to craft a HP Green Steel with aspect of smoke : +45 hp, perma-blur AND a displacement clickie.

that will be my hp belt!!
for the melee lives, if someday i reach em (3clr,3fvs,3 wiz, 2 sorc done, current sorc, so 3 druid left to start with 3 pally)
i get gear through the lives so i have time enough (in fact only missing 1 shard of power, last life should have run 1 more shroud but wasn't gonna change my plans for gear) to look for things i could find useful further, my 4 mules have more than "a bit of" stuff so i should bring the greater false items and that stuff but i worry about this only when meleing

216hp is quite good imho, could be higher? yes, is that needed? depends on playstyle, if you like being swarmed by tons of mobs and red alerts... of course you need more! but if you range your enemies, use the environment to your benefit (unreachable positions for dumbass mobs with 0 ranks in jump) and you are conscious of your possibilities... dunno why always ppl is asking for more hp
actually lvl 10 and don't have any false life item on, that doesn't mean i can't solo quests in elite at lvl (last were von 1,2 and full necro2, sadly knight w/o trap bonus U_U)

the day "oh my hp is too low!!" arrives when you get 1 shoted by a kobold, rest of situations are easily doable (if you need to cross a trap to disable it, you always can die and get raise in the other side, isn't a shame doing that intentionally, how do you think that some divines do quests w/o trappers?XD)

next time someone tells your hp is too low, you can say him that you don't need more, if one day you decide to melee, then will ask him how to get more hp

EllisDee37
01-28-2013, 03:08 PM
(if you need to cross a trap to disable it, you always can die and get raise in the other side, isn't a shame doing that intentionally, how do you think that some divines do quests w/o trappers?XD)This to me is a compelling reason to get more hit points on a trapper.

Ryiah
01-28-2013, 03:20 PM
how do you think that some divines do quests w/o trappers?XD

By playing smart and understanding how often a trap can fire. I know for Impossible Demands the fire spell wards have a fairly large recharge between triggers. You have someone with evasion (cold shield or simply a lot of HP work too) trigger it and while it is recharging have the remainder of the party go through.

EllisDee37
01-28-2013, 04:04 PM
By playing smart and understanding how often a trap can fire. I know for Impossible Demands the fire spell wards have a fairly large recharge between triggers. You have someone with evasion (cold shield or simply a lot of HP work too) trigger it and while it is recharging have the remainder of the party go through.Spell wards can't be evaded; they're will saves.

Therigar
01-28-2013, 06:18 PM
By playing smart and understanding how often a trap can fire. I know for Impossible Demands the fire spell wards have a fairly large recharge between triggers. You have someone with evasion (cold shield or simply a lot of HP work too) trigger it and while it is recharging have the remainder of the party go through.

Other than the observation about will saves, trappers are generally needed for trivial quests like VoN5 where every single trap box is behind a trap. And, while the dual hallways of death do have safe spots (as do the doors to the final fight), it is hard hitting those spots each and every time -- not to mention the electric traps that cannot be disarmed at all. In all of VoN5 the only trap that is usually handled w/o going thru the trap first is the one at the top of the fire/air cannon. But, good reflex saves and evasion are handy there too.

Not having evasion is one of the biggest problems with the artificer class. Of course, you could go Shadowdancer in epic destinies and get it as your L5 ability. ;)

As to rogue v monk for splash, 2 feats is very tempting. So are the bonus skill points in rogue and the fact that practically the whole skill tree is the same as artificer. Which one is better will be a matter of personal preference and build needs.

Aashrym
01-28-2013, 10:59 PM
The hit points are fine. Too many players look at what the total possible is instead of what the need is at those levels and don't try to run something you can't if you don't have the gear yet.

Deathblock and heavy fortification are great advice.

High REF if you can get it is also great advice. You don't necessarily need evasion. It's great when you save and does nothing for you when you don't so high REF is more important, and it costs you a nice capstone ability to get evasion unless you plan on the shadow dancer method.

Also, not all artificers are WF or dwarf and some start 14/15 CON instead of 16.

The "trapper" label is also a bit of a misnomer. Trap skills exist but I wouldn't consider it a significant role, more like an added bonus. There are many players who bypass traps without trap skills or evasion. Normally by avoiding the trap while having the reflex and hit points to survive it if avoiding it fails. Most traps can be avoided so having a trap skill can help but that skill doesn't provide any extra requirement to survive when other player can do so under the same circumstances without evasion or trapping.

Ideally, (but not necessarily) you should be able to get access to:

20 heroic
78 class
91 CON bonus (for 24 CON. Dwarven CON, ship buff, and +2 CON tome make this an achievable goal and exceedable)
30 greater false life, 20 if you only have improved false life
15 toughness
20 racial toughness, 30 if you can afford the extra tier in AP
20 toughness item once you farm it

That's 274; with 2 less CON, improved false life, no toughness item that leaves you with 231. You can also use rage clickies for 13 more. (287 hp or 244 hp).

Worry about Argo favor and GS item later. They are not common at 13th level except on TR's who already have the GS. You don't need 365 hit points on a level 13 artificer just because it's possible. Over 200 will suffice while you work on more to improve your survivability.

Take the insightful reflexes feat and just enough DEX for feat prereq's; focus on INT.

With the items listed to work towards that puts you on pace for 313hp at level 16 and if you work on the Argo favor plus the GS hit point item before level 20 you'll be at 420 hit point (440 with rage). Toss in 50 hit points for epic levels, +8 CON item, +2 exceptional CON, +4 CON Tome and you are looking at breaking 600 for level 25 without too much difficulty and room for more.

You will want what you can get for hit points but don't worry so much about what it looks like right now. You should be fine with a self healing, ranged, buffing character who can get most of the traps in the game to boot with those hit points.

Blue100000005
01-28-2013, 11:20 PM
But this is exactly why I would want higher HP on any toon. This, and AOE spells/attacks and traps, which I have to jump through (on an Arti, sometimes), but can't dodge (beacause I don't know them well enough).

@OP: Few numbers of which sources of HP are obtainable @13 (in brackets things which might be out of your reach now):

Con: 16+ 6 item + 2 racial (+ 2tome +2 ship) = 24-28, i.e. modifier between +7 and +9.
HP: 13x6 arti lvls + 20 starting HP + 30 GFL + 20 racial enhancements + 15 Toughness feat + 13x7 Con modifier (+20 HP Minos Legens + 2x13 additional Con + 45 HP Greensteel + 20 HP Guild slot) = 254 HP (365 HP).

So yes, your HP are a little too low, but not too bad. You are not super squishy, but you might have few problems in traps or if you pull aggro unintentionally (or against random aggro monsters).

The sources of HP listed above can be easily fit in in any Arti build/equipment (except, maybe, the guild slot), if accessible. You shouldn't have any problems fitting in a GFL item.



Believe it or not, some people really are only on first life. There stuff you listed is probably not going to be on a first life arty. And greensteel for most people takes too damn long to waste time on, and it too confusing for casual players.

stefferweffer
01-29-2013, 09:55 AM
Before going the Monk or Rogue splash route, keep in mind that you will be giving up not only the capstone, but also 2 level 6 spell slots. That was the clincher for me. You won't need Reconstruct like my Warforged does, but you'd almost always want Blade Barrier, Deadly Weapons, and Tactical Detonation. As an 18/2 you can only run with two level 6 Arti spells at a time. I'm also not sure if you can cap your Doggie as a blend or not, if you care about that. (I gave my Doggie Improved Evasion at 20 (which I'm jealous of), which has increased his survivability a great deal.)

For what its worth, my first life Warforged Arti has 402 hp at 20 and he does just fine.

Enoach
01-29-2013, 10:40 AM
I've never asked anyone to leave group or kicked someone for HP. I have on the other hand delayed starting to help someone pump up their "Death Buffer" AKA Hit Points. As a leader of the group I take the responsibility to make sure the group is as prepared as they can be and also make sure I am flexible enough to change tactics to what would work best for the party - This may include slowing the pace and turning a 15 minute quest into a 20 minute one.

At level 13 I use the following benchmarks which is based on a 10 Constitution with no other HP Sources

d4 - 72
d6 - 98
d8 - 124
d10 - 150
d12 - 176

Now these are the base numbers of a 10 Constitution with no other sources of HP. Anything near or under this means absolutely nothing has been done to help secure your "Death Buffer".

Basic Items like:

False Life / Improved false life = 10 to 20 Extra HP
+2 or +4 Constitution Item = 13 to 26 Extra HP
Toughness Item - (ie Mino Legends) = 20 Extra HP
Guild +2 Constitution Shrine (assuming not part of base) = 13 Extra HP


This is 56 to 79 HP That can be acquired even by a first life - Admittedly Minos Legends would be harder on a first life due to needing 20 Tapestry either farmed or AH bought or Given.

I would say the 216 HP at Level 16 on a pure Artificer was in the ball park of where you want to be. If you haven't crafted on your Rune Arm there is a possibility for fitting in False Life.

MartinusWyllt
01-29-2013, 10:46 AM
Before going the Monk or Rogue splash route, keep in mind that you will be giving up not only the capstone, but also 2 level 6 spell slots. That was the clincher for me. You won't need Reconstruct like my Wargorged does, but you'd almost always want Blade Barrier, Deadly Weapons, and Tactical Detonation. As an 18/2 you can only run with two level 6 Arti spells at a time. I'm also not sure if you can cap your Doggie as a blend or not, if you care about that. (I gave my Doggie Improved Evasion at 20 (which I'm jealous of), which has increased his survivability a great deal.)

For what its worth, my first life Warforged Arti has 402 hp at 20 and he does just fine.

Shadowdancer can bring evasion to the pure arti, too, so splashing then LR'ing out of the splash could work out pretty well...especially if you've TR'd and already worked your EDs.

Indoran
01-29-2013, 11:32 AM
Today I was Pugging and someone who was a really good player start talking to me about how 216HP wasn't enough for my level 13 Dwarven Arti. He obviously knew what he was talking about and was very polite about it.

I was a bit taken aback because that particular toon has a base Con of 16 and a total Con of 23. I also took the Toughness feat. Other than a False Life item (Which I don't really have a slot for.) I really can't think of much else I can do to increase my HP (Except for possibly taking a few Dwarven Toughness enhancements.)

I would just like a few more opinions. Is 216HP really too low? Should I be concerned about the toon or is that particular player maybe over-emphasizing how squishy he is?

For level 13 yes... he is overemphasizing. try to slot the GFL somehow though and a toughness item too.

Because right now you dont need them much... but in a few levels hell yes...

Also as somebody else noted get a deathblock item (can be a swap item) and the heavy fort item (which can be the same as the toughness - Minos helm)

A counsel I disagreed with was something regarding how you will die anyway running elites... thats not necesarily true, not even for EE (I run a lot of EE) there are a lot of factors that play with this, DPS, CC, mobility are ways to prevent your death, learn which onees you have access to and which you can incorporate into your game play most effectively.

And maybe right now your hp are ok... but always strive to get a few more without gimping yourself in other vital functions (dont put level up hp into con if you are an arti! Heck I wont even do it for a Fvs... yes i am looking at you blob builds)

maybe when you get access to greensteel items you will get lots more options to improve the toon hp's and get some slot consolidation also

Nedime
01-29-2013, 12:10 PM
So I had this thread in mind this afternoon (west. europe) when I logged. So there was a pug for ennemy within elite, lead by a rogue. I apply, am accepted and the group quickly fills.
I notice the rogue has 180, which reminds me of this discussion. I say nothing. Here's the rogue asking me : how much is your spot ? how much is your search etc. and for each he has 1-2 more points (except UMD). So he concludes "see, I'm only first life but I'm more skilled than you". OK I laugh, "good call mate you have more skill points than me I must recognize. Oh BTW how much hit points do you have ? Oh stupid me I can see then right in front of me, 180" (I have 350).
And then he goes : "the amount of hp is not that important. You can have 500 hp they are useless if you are killed by one attack. Most important is skill."
Me : "ok".

So we enter, I haven't even finished to buff party that I hear "ding", looking at chat I see he's dead. One shot.

So the cleric raises him. 3 minutes after : Ding.

By the end of the quest he must have died 8 times. Most of the times one shot. Or a combo of hold/offensive spell.

I don't want to prove anything, this story happened to me while I had this topic in mind and wanted to share for a break ;)

Lifeblood
01-29-2013, 01:05 PM
Is 216HP really too low? Should I be concerned about the toon or is that particular player maybe over-emphasizing how squishy he is?


not going to tell you it is too low..but my lvl 8 human rogue has 204 .. that is with ship buffs, yugo pot and a large gem of health

you might be able to squeeze in a few more if you tried ...

LOOON375
01-29-2013, 02:21 PM
213 at level 13 is plenty.

Aashrym
01-29-2013, 02:40 PM
not going to tell you it is too low..but my lvl 8 human rogue has 204 .. that is with ship buffs, yugo pot and a large gem of health

you might be able to squeeze in a few more if you tried ...

You expect everyone to be in a high level guild with yugo pots at those levels? Those are the things that warp player perceptions of what is realistic.

Expecting someone to have a ship buff for CON isn't as unreasonable but not something I would call a given and it will be lost in the event of a death. The yugo pots and large gem of health are much more unrealistic.

EllisDee37
01-29-2013, 02:57 PM
large gem of health [is] unrealistic.Agreed bigtime, but for now at least a small gem isn't unrealistic for an extra +10 hp.

Nedime
01-29-2013, 06:29 PM
not going to tell you it is too low..but my lvl 8 human rogue has 204 .. that is with ship buffs, yugo pot and a large gem of health

you might be able to squeeze in a few more if you tried ...


Using Yuggopots at level 8 ? what for ? not enough hp for elite bloody crypt ?

Lifeblood
01-31-2013, 08:28 AM
You expect everyone to be in a high level guild with yugo pots at those levels? Those are the things that warp player perceptions of what is realistic.

Expecting someone to have a ship buff for CON isn't as unreasonable but not something I would call a given and it will be lost in the event of a death. The yugo pots and large gem of health are much more unrealistic.

I don't expect anyone to have the items/buffs that i listed

and while not a guarantee against death ..more hp is always a good idea if you can fit them in
and it sounds like the op can fit them in

Lifeblood
01-31-2013, 08:32 AM
Using Yuggopots at level 8 ? what for ? not enough hp for elite bloody crypt ?

I cant remember a time that someone died in game from too many hp

If someone has the ability to make their character better or stronger why not do it

MartinusWyllt
01-31-2013, 08:50 AM
I cant remember a time that someone died in game from too many hp

If someone has the ability to make their character better or stronger why not do it

Probably because we can't measure what they gave up in DC or SP or reflex/will save or DPS or UMD or...etc. to have "too many hp".

psykopeta
01-31-2013, 09:26 AM
i use to buy 300 yugopots before tr'ing, use to hit 20 with 100-200

but never would use the con potion, in fact it's not a bad potion, simply there's no need with a bit hp, imho with 216 at that lvl there's no need

Aashrym
01-31-2013, 10:38 AM
I don't expect anyone to have the items/buffs that i listed

and while not a guarantee against death ..more hp is always a good idea if you can fit them in
and it sounds like the op can fit them in

More hit points don't usually hurt but 28 point first life builds with no guild seem like a more reasonable base line for determining what is "low". On something like that 20 CON (I still see +4 CON items at level 13 and a +6 CON item for starting at 14 CON does the same thing), toughness feat and 2 tiers of racial toughness (not guaranteed either but common), improved false life maybe. Players don't necessarily have access to a toughness item, especially if they don't own a pack to get minos legens.

218 hit points for a 13th level artificer is a good rough baseline and below 200 would be what I consider a bit "low". How many hit points a person "needs" has nothing to do with how many they could potentially have.

brickwall
01-31-2013, 11:53 AM
http://my.ddo.com/brickwall/wp-content/blogs.dir/225699/files/gallery/506hp.pngLvl12 506 hp with standard ship buffs and a rage potion.

Therigar
01-31-2013, 12:18 PM
I cant remember a time that someone died in game from too many hp

I remember, one time, in Shroud, this character with like a bajillion HP just died instantly because he couldn't hit the center of a circle.

That caused the whole party to wipe.

I think it was cuz he had so many HP he was too heavy and couldn't jump. :D

Therigar
01-31-2013, 12:20 PM
http://my.ddo.com/brickwall/wp-content/blogs.dir/225699/files/gallery/506hp.pngLvl12 506 hp with standard ship buffs and a rage potion.

We're so proud of you. :D

BTW, that hat is so last year (or two....). Where's the new helmet we bought for you last week.

Love,

Mom and Dad (er, ore pit and lumber yard) :eek:

Snootch
01-31-2013, 12:32 PM
... a really good player start[ed] talking to me about how 216HP wasn't enough for my level 13 Dwarven Arti.

Brendae, Hit Points do not make your character stronger. They do not make him do more damage. They do not help him avoid damage. They are just one stat - one number - that can be manipulated out of many, many things on myriad builds.

The reality is that maximum Hit Points do not do anything except help those who actually WANT Aggro to be able to survive a bit longer before someone else heals them. Also, some people are afraid of dying, and they look at their Health Bar (current HP) instead of, say, their poor game play as a reason for their many deaths.

So let's be clear. There are two kinds of HP: maximum HP and current HP.

Current HP just needs to be 1 HP or higher in order to participate; -9 HP means you are still alive but cannot participate; and -10 current HP or lower means you are dead and need to be resurrected in order to participate. In order to participate fully in quests, then, your current HP just needs to be maintained through healing, should you ever need it. In fact, if everyone completes the quest having never gone below 1 HP each, then everyone gets a 10% Bonus to XP! Therefore, it is a wonderfully balanced party that has a dedicated healer in it, as everyone's current HP can remain above 1 HP rather easily (even on the hard quests), and thus everyone can participate. But you gotta know what you are doing and you gotta help others do their jobs while doing your own.

Maximum HP, on the other hand, has nothing to do with life or death. Maximum HP ONLY has to do with how much damage you can take at one time. (Whether it be one huge hit or several moderate hits.) The idea with max. HP is to make sure that you can take big hits and still keep a current HP above 1, just in time for the healer to save you. That is all max. HP is good for. ("Big hits" refers to both quality and quantity.)

So as you can see, if you avoid taking big hits, then you do not need a high maximum HP. If you like walking up to large mobs and getting them all mad at you, then yeah... you are going to receive big hits, and having a high maximum HP will help the party healer to keep you alive with all those big hits coming in. But if you avoid damage (high Saving Throw scores; Diplomacy Skill; Sneaking; corresponding your attacks to the party strategy; helping the Tank do his job; reducing your Threat-generation; acting from safe locations; maybe being a Dexterity-based build; having a high Armor Class; increasing your Damage Reduction (DR); you move out of the way; etcetera), then you won't be taking big hits. If you continue to avoid big hits, then you can focus your character on his job and specialize, thus becoming the most powerful character at your position on the team.

While big hits are easily avoidable if you build, gear, and play your character for avoidance, you might still take one. But what I have learned is that 300 HP at Level 20 is usually more than enough for a back line combatant, as most of the big hits in this game won't hit anywhere near that amount. (There are only a few places where big hits that hit everyone in your party are possible, but you can still survive them without investing in maximum HP if you learn how to play them right. For example, don't walk through armed traps and don't fall onto pointy sticks.) Hence, investing in the Toughness Feat or the corresponding Enhancements are ALWAYS optional and usually unneeded for the Spellcaster and Specialist classes (and sometimes Monks), unless you like walking your up to mobs and/or you don't care how much Aggro you get. But with the right gear and buffs and playing to proper strategies, your character will avoid big hits and thus rely more on their spellcasting and other ranged or back line abilities instead of worrying about their current HP going below 1 or their maximum HP being a million. It really is that easy, but it requires playing with people who know what they are doing and know what you are doing. If they aren't paying attention or don't care, well... then things can get stupid pretty quickly.

So maximum HP building is just for folks who want Aggro. If you build and play to AVOID Aggro and damage, then maximum HP will not help you do that. My advice is to spend your precious resources wisely and specialize so that you are the best at your position on the team.

------------

An Artificer is like the other three Specialist class types. These classes do not want Aggro. Keep them away from it, and reduce your Threat-/Hate-generation. (Stealth Strike is one such item enchantment that works for reducing threat, for example, and it is easily craftable.) An Artificer (like the Specialists and the Spellcasters) sometimes get Aggro, so the best way to shed it is to do the following (which reduces or eliminates the need for investing in maximum HP for your build):

1) If you are a ranged combatant (spellcaster or martial ranged), then stay in the back line. Let the Tank do his job in grabbing all the Aggro, and do your job in plucking off enemies that are not paying attention to you.

2) Should you accidentally get Aggro, then pull it to the Tank and then use your Diplomacy Skill. This will shed the Aggro onto the Tank, and you can then go back to the back line and resume your duties. Reducing the Threat you generate will help in shedding Aggro also, as the idea for a back line combatant is to remain low on (all) enemy Hate Lists.

3) A character who stays in the back line does not rely on maximum Hit Points. Maximum HP are for front line characters who expect to take lots of damage and who require frequent healing. An Artificer playing from range (which is the intention of the class) can pick and choose targets so as to reduce the risk of pulling Aggro. As a result, it is not necessary to invest precious Feats or Enhancements into maximum Hit Points for a ranged character. Save those precious resource allocations for things that directly relate to your job, which are ranged combat, shedding Aggro, and your class Skills (especially Diplomacy, even if off-class).

4) The most Hit Points you will need are what you get naturally through leveling and whatever items you get room for that have HP increasers on them. You will do fine at end game content if you (A) do your job, (B) let other people do their jobs, and (C) you are built and geared for balanced team play. False Life, Constitution items, and buffs (and Epic Destinies!) will give your spellcaster or martial ranged combatant more than enough maximum HP to do his job safely and effectively.

------------

As a closing note, you will run into people in this community who have a very narrow view on the game. As Verad said:


Don't worry some players get upset if your not playing the way they play.

What I learned is that this game is not hard to figure out over time. (Learning curves notwithstanding.) If you are a good person and you play with good people, then you will figure out what each of your characters need. Maximum Hit Points is not always what you need to invest in, so if someone gives you grief about that one stat, then you can just ignore them or run the risk of wasting time trying to explain your build and strategies to them. Up to you.

The idea in a MMO is to understand that there are people who think like you do and people who do not. Stand for what works for you and be the friend that other people need. You will then have more fun in this MMO, and because it is a role-playing game, you can understand how the roles are to behave when balancing a party, and then go on to succeed. Don't get bogged down or feel bad just because someone does not understand all the facets of this game.

Take care.


Snootch

Nedime
01-31-2013, 08:21 PM
http://my.ddo.com/brickwall/wp-content/blogs.dir/225699/files/gallery/506hp.pngLvl12 506 hp with standard ship buffs and a rage potion.

What do you expect ? I believe you hit the wrong section of the forum. This one is not for congratulations and records. Seriously ! Read again the first post it was not asking who has the best hp at level 12 with a rage pot (and believe me you don't have the most hp at level 12) but if 216 hp is something to worry about.

You're expecting a first life to have as much hp as you after your 20+ lives - Plus you're cheating : you're a FVS/monk not an artie ? Where's your common sense ?

And more important : what are all those extra hp for ? I mean, elite streak, blah blah, after all these TRs you know you don't need as much hp at level 12.

So why you postin' this pic ? You need some "oh boy how awesome you are ?"

I thought we reached the top of grotesque with the yuggopots at level 8 story but I must admit you win.

EllisDee37
02-01-2013, 02:06 PM
The reality is that maximum Hit Points do not do anything except help those who actually WANT Aggro to be able to survive a bit longer before someone else heals them.Hit points help trappers get to control boxes on the other side of the trap, especially if they don't have evasion.