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DashJovis
01-20-2013, 01:29 AM
I'm a fan of weird builds and multi-classing, being drawn to D&D for that reason. Seeing the synergy between Monk and Kensai, and being a lover of Rogues, I had to try and build a Shortsword wielding assassin. Any advice you give me would be helpful as I am a relatively new player with some PnP experience.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Draconis Rimsey
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 15 17 20
Dexterity 15 17 18
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 16 16 16
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 10 12
Bluff -1 -1 1
Concentration 4 9 17
Diplomacy -1 -1 1
Disable Device 7 27 27
Haggle -1 -1 -1
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 6 16 20
Intimidate -1 -1 1
Jump 6 10 12
Listen 3 3 3
Move Silently 6 16 20
Open Lock 6 26 26
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 3 3 3
Search 7 26 26
Spot 3 3 3
Swim 2 5 5
Tumble 6 8 10
Use Magic Device 3 3 3

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Discipline


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Whirlwind Attack


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stealthy


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Shortsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Shortsword Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Shortsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV




6 levels of monk for Ninja I and adept level Ki. 12 levels of Fighter for Kensai II and feats. Open and close with Rogue for skills, would probably drop UMD for Haggle (extra points at 1), may consider adding 2 INT tome before I TR.

Ki Generation with Kensai should be high enough for bursts of ninja shadow fade or debuff finishers depending on enemies. Trembling earth (for mages) and falling star are the main ones, though it might be worth using the water finishers when not fighting undead. Damage can be boosted with Kensai abilities and human damage boost, though skill boost is nearly as useful. Static Charge and sneak attack should also help. This ninja doesn't want aggro, sneak attack is a boon.

Undead look like they'd be the most difficult enemy for this build to handle, with their immunity to critical hits, water finishers, and dark blow. Stealth skills are't as high as I'd like, a lot of skill points get sucked into DD and Open. I'm hoping shadow fade and grouping help to reduce that problem. The goal is to stealth and make the first blow count, maybe take a moment to build your Ki as you plan an attack.

I would probably take Bulwark of Defense and Skills in Epic, thinking Shadowdancer with twists from Grandmaster for destiny. Running with Wind, maybe Hail of Blows or Piercing Clarity.

Should I roll this toon? Anybody have any advice/questions about the build? Health is clearly a little low, would I be good with gear increases or do I need to trade some feats for toughness? How should I look at gearing this character? Is it too ability starved to work? I may run it when I TR for the second time to mitigate that possibility.

TheGuyYouKnow
01-20-2013, 07:01 AM
this looks like a solid build and ill tell you now, with power surge you will have no problems at all with ki generation
although there are a few things i would like to suggest

on feats:
Level 6 (Monk) Feat: (Selected) Discipline
Level 18 (Fighter) Feat: (Selected) Stealthy
these 2 feats are not very good, i suggest power attack and either deflect arrows or skill focus: umd

Level 8 (Fighter) Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Level 9 (Fighter) Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense
these 2 feats have gotten a small buff lately but i would still suggest taking a 2nd toughness in place of power critical.

on skills:
you will have a hard time keeping all your rogue skills up as well as balance, concentration and sneaking skills one option is to only put points in open lock on your first rogue level and then leave it at that, this will leave the majority of doors/chests to still be unlockable but certain high dc locks you will need special items to grant extra bonuses to be able to open (like greensteel dex skills and exceptional open lock items). also fit as many points into umd as you can, with epic levels no fail umd on heal scrolls is rather easy to obtain.

on enhancements:
is all good here the only thing that is missing is fighter haste boost I-IV, a massive boost to damage output unless you are planning on twisting it in from legendary dreadnaught

epic destinies:
I'm not exactly sure what your build goals are but if its maximum damage your going for shadow dancer is not it, i would say grandmaster of flowers or fury of the wild.

MnaSidhe
01-20-2013, 07:10 AM
I'm not sure what the second level of Rogue brings? Evasion you get from being a monk...
Is it just the skills and the reflex save??

A 7th Monk level brings Wholeness of Body... which (although seldom used) can be useful in a crunch, acces to Void Strike II and Improved Recovery II... all of which I would find useful. A 13th fighter level increases the BAB more than the 2nd level of Rogue.

TheGuyYouKnow
01-20-2013, 07:17 AM
I'm not sure what the second level of Rogue brings?
it would absolutely be the skills

aradelothion
01-20-2013, 07:41 AM
I'd take stunning blow AND stunning fist and go handwraps. Even if you're dead set on short swords, consider dropping some of the fluff feats for SB. With the upcoming changes to EiN, low wisdom monks/monk splashes don't get as much mileage from GMoF; stay Shadow Dancer for the +6d6 sneak damage and other subtle goodies, and twist in tactics from LD and sense weakness from fury. As someone said above, get haste boost, this can be activated at the same time as human versatility (damage). Better if you take it from class enhancements, as I don't think you can get enough fate points to twist that from LD and sense weakness at the same time.

Edit: 2nd level of rogue also gives you wand and scroll mastery 1 for +30% better heals.

DashJovis
01-20-2013, 11:59 AM
I'm not sure what the second level of Rogue brings? Evasion you get from being a monk...
Is it just the skills and the reflex save??

A 7th Monk level brings Wholeness of Body... which (although seldom used) can be useful in a crunch, acces to Void Strike II and Improved Recovery II... all of which I would find useful. A 13th fighter level increases the BAB more than the 2nd level of Rogue.

I thought about this, even tried it in the builder. But Wholeness is based on monk lvl and wisdom, it would only generate about 60 hp. I had to balance Void Strike vs the skills, and I chose skills. As for a fighter level, wouldn't both end up being identical in terms of BAB? Or does BAB round up? My understand was that the first rogue level added no BAB (.75) while the second added 1 (1.50) while a fighter adds 1 per lvl. Is that right?

I'll probably switch a feat for stunning blow, and a second toughness. Not going to bother with power attack, I'd rather keep my critical threat range high. Does Fighter Haste Boost actually stack with Wind Stance? I hope to spend most of my time in Wind Stance and heard it didn't, but I could be very very wrong here... If it does I'm sure I can find a way to work it out.

Thanks everybody for their prompt responses and advice! :)

Kinerd
01-20-2013, 01:43 PM
Swap the order of ITWF and Two Weapon Defense, ITWF will give you a lot more.

Seconding the unarmed advice. The feats you can definitely drop are: Discipline, Power Critical, Stealthy, Two Weapon Defense (does not work with unarmed). Take Stunning Fist (L2), Power Attack (L8), Improved Sunder (L12), Stunning Blow (L18) instead. Power Critical doesn't do anything to your threat range, it's just +2 damage before crit on crit while Power Attack is +5 damage before crit on hit.

You have to be able to get at least one rank of Fighter Haste Boost. It is just way too powerful to not have, especially on an unarmed build with significant sneak attack. Dropping Human Adapt Dex and Fighter Toughness 3 and 4 would get you enough AP for Haste Boost 4, I encourage you to do so. There is a huge amount of stat bonus on gear, ending up even in the planner is neither indicative nor critical.

Regarding Haste stacking, the attack speed bonus for Wind stance and Haste (spell) do not stack. The attack speed bonus for Haste Boost stacks with everything. The double-strike bonus for Wind stance "stacks" with Haste in the sense that Haste offers none, and something always stacks with nothing.

DashJovis
01-20-2013, 07:50 PM
I don't really want to go unarmed on this toon, as I already have a Shintao monk to play when I want to use kung-fu. While I respect that the increased speed and 1.5 times damage might make unarmed higher DPS, I think if I take advantage of DR bypassing I can make shortswords work. (Plus for flavour I really like shortswords)

Stunning Fist is a great ability, even if you just swap to wraps to use it, but I don't really mind giving it up given my low WIS. I'll be keeping power critical over power attack just because I plan to spend most of my time in the Combat Expertise stance with Bulwark of Defense. I'd rather a small bonus that works with my upgraded stance than another stance option. Here's my revision.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Draconis Rimsey
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Monk \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 374
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 15 17 20
Dexterity 15 17 18
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 16 16 16
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 10 12
Bluff -1 -1 1
Concentration 4 9 15
Diplomacy -1 -1 1
Disable Device 7 27 27
Haggle 3 3 3
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 6 16 18
Intimidate -1 -1 1
Jump 6 10 12
Listen 3 3 3
Move Silently 6 16 18
Open Lock 6 26 26
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 3 3 3
Search 7 26 26
Spot 3 3 3
Swim 2 5 5
Tumble 6 8 10
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Whirlwind Attack


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CON
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Kensei Shortsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Shortsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV



The big enhancement I was sad to see go was adept of earth, but really earth is for finishers more than damage anyways, and knowing that Haste Boost's speed increase stacks with Wind Stance's has made me decide to pick it up.

For Epic Destiny I wanted Shadowdancer for Shadow training, particularly sneak attack damage and dimension door. Shadow Charge abilities are also very very cool and can provide some neat goodies. While I would like to have some DPS, more important to me is is what I can offer a party in utility. I want to be able to pick locks, disable traps, scout, town portal, debuff, and dominate. (will probably take void strike I until I get shadow manipulation). Twists of Fate should be used to increase my DPS, because I know a certain level of DPS will be expected of me. Plus Dark Imbuement is both cool and thematically appropriate.

On the topic of skills, can you choose to save skill points until next level, or was TheGuyYouKnow talking about something else? Because I was under the impression you had to spend every skill point each level, which given the high intelligence requirements of this build makes that first rogue level overskilled and leaves me with a lot of skills around 3 at endgame.

Gremmlynn
01-20-2013, 10:53 PM
Even if you don't want power attack, I'd still dump power crit or the second toughness for improved trip since you qualify for it. Things on their butts don't hit back.

Mercureal
01-20-2013, 11:21 PM
For Epic Destiny I wanted Shadowdancer for Shadow training, particularly sneak attack damage and dimension door. Shadow Charge abilities are also very very cool and can provide some neat goodies. While I would like to have some DPS, more important to me is is what I can offer a party in utility. I want to be able to pick locks, disable traps, scout, town portal, debuff, and dominate. (will probably take void strike I until I get shadow manipulation). Twists of Fate should be used to increase my DPS, because I know a certain level of DPS will be expected of me. Plus Dark Imbuement is both cool and thematically appropriate.

On the topic of skills, can you choose to save skill points until next level, or was TheGuyYouKnow talking about something else? Because I was under the impression you had to spend every skill point each level, which given the high intelligence requirements of this build makes that first rogue level overskilled and leaves me with a lot of skills around 3 at endgame.

A lot of the Shadowdance stuff is very cool, but I don't feel that Dark Imbuement is among them. But I'm actually posting in response to your question on skills. You can't save skill points between levels - I think what he meant was to generally ignore the traps skills.

Uhtred_Stark
01-21-2013, 01:59 AM
For undead just get a pair of disruption wraps. At lower levels its really easy to craft holy of lesser undead bane. With this type of build you really help your party if you take improved sunder. Precision is another one you will want to take a look at if you aren't going to use power attack. I would drop intelligence and buff up strength. You have the feats to also fit in overwhelming critical as your epic feat if you get to 23 strength which you can do pretty easily with even just a +2 tome. You could then give yourself all kinds of clickie combat fun running in LD destiny with momentum swing and lay waste, cleave, im sunder, great cleave and whatever monk attacks you wanted to use.