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SqueakofDoom
01-17-2013, 12:24 PM
This thread is for discussing the Epic Gianthold Flagging Quests: Return to Madstone Crater, Return to Prison of the Planes, and Return to Cabal for One.

I would appreciate it if threads discussing a particular quest included that quest name in the Title.

MrkGrismer
01-17-2013, 12:59 PM
I'm still at work but the question I am most curious is are these "Return" quests different quests, or 'just' Epic versions of the current quests.

Most importantly, do they have separate and distinct repeat counters?

(These questions are asked to anyone who can answer)

Grosbeak07
01-17-2013, 01:42 PM
I'm still at work but the question I am most curious is are these "Return" quests different quests, or 'just' Epic versions of the current quests.

Most importantly, do they have separate and distinct repeat counters?

(These questions are asked to anyone who can answer)

The storyline has changed a bit, the quests not as much.

They have been tweeked more than than anything.

ToR is the most changed of them all that I have found.

Carpone
01-17-2013, 04:46 PM
EH Prison of the Planes, Fernia room: Every mob fireballing at once for 300-500 (non-evasion) seems excessive. Perhaps spellpower or mob quantity got swapped with EE?

sirgog
01-17-2013, 09:29 PM
EE Prison of the Planes - the Gold Concord trash seemed weaker than expected. Especially given it was CR 54 or so (on par with the really vicious trash in the Netherese chain).

arkonas
01-17-2013, 11:34 PM
kinda sad that all the quests were the same just epiced. i guess i was expecting a little more since it was the return of the truthful one. same mobs same setup no new traps.

Kraki
01-18-2013, 07:58 AM
Madstone EH

Llamaland burped right as we were finishing off the skelly but we never really had any issues with the quest. The skeleton enchanters appeared to be CR17 or 19 I believe. This made freeing the seers trivial.

I did end up shrining for mana after the 2nd seer but I'm Torc'd and have Conc Opp.

I would class it around the same difficulty as Dust or Servants, easier than demonweb quests, just longer. No surprises for anyone who has run Madstone a few times on Heroic. Given the CR of the quest I expected it to be more difficult. It feels as if the EN/EH/EE settings really determine the difficulty and the CR means almost nothing. I probably just need to adjust my expectations to match reality.

Kraki

Sandpredator
01-18-2013, 10:39 AM
EH Madstone: Found the pathways leading up to the ledges above the 2nd and 3rd seers to be a much needed change. Found the orange named enchanters with the giants to be CR17 and could easily be one shotted.

EH POP: Law room finally works!!! Mephits in the ice room where very low CR compared to the fire room. Was able to cast a blade barrier and kill them instantly.

Other than that, all 3 flagging quests where pretty straight forward and just like the heroic versions.

shadereaper33
01-18-2013, 10:49 AM
Ran madstone crater on EN last night, found 1 glaring problem with the quest. The orange named madstoen seers were all ML 12, and died very quickly as a result. I tried to bug report it at it time, but the forums and such were down and so was the bug reporting tool. Other than that, was the path up to the ogre shaman perch at the second crystal always there, or is that new?

Phemt81
01-18-2013, 10:50 AM
Will epic gianthold upgrade need to be bought separately or will be inside next update for the old adventure pack?

Shade
01-18-2013, 11:00 AM
Ran all three on epic elite on my barbarian. Generally in groups of 2-5 with various classes.

All of them are patheticly easy. Seems like zero effort was put in to make ANY semblance of challenge here at all for any competant lvl25 group.

The monsters generally hit for the same damage as what we saw from the U14 EE drow, (~150-200) but being they are mostly ogre/giants and other VERY SLOW swinging enemies, theres litterally zero risk to any reasonable hp character.

It's like the devs dont have any concept of DPS. Slower swinging enemies do the same damage as fast swinging ones. So while a small fast attacking human zakya cultist might pose a threat, a massive powerful epic elite giant proves no threat.

Though i cant comment much on the zakya since our wizard solo'd every one of them in about 2-3 minutes while i made my way to the quest...

Several group members only had 400-600 hp, there were no deaths at all that were simply because the monsters were hiting hard in Madstone or Caba, a few due to zerging/carelessness was it.. Could tank as many as 6+ enemies at a time in melee, in light armor, without displacement or any serious prr.
And only a few in prison that were all caused by the mariliths 6 hit atack that truely felt serious.

Due to this ultra poor design, the only enemy that actaully posed any challenge was the pop Marilith, thanks to her 6 hit attack. 6 hits @ ~150 dmg = 900 dmg.. Yea she is the one monster that legitamately killed us when we were really trying, (Though we were mostly attempting to solo her, since we were 2 man with 1 on lever).
Later after the rest of the party caught up (they were hanging out getting free loot at the event) we took her down.. Given she is only orange named, its actaully 100% trivial for any arcane due to ottos irresistable dance shutting her down. So to challenge ourselves, I asked the wizard not to cast it. Tanked her well enough with some serious healing from the cleric.
PS: Bug report: Mariliths lack a dance animation, so she just sits there and dies should you use that spell.

The hp totals on tha giants/orges/troll is reasonable given they need to balanced against insta kills. Around 5-8k each. With some mater blitz stacks, they still died in 2-3 seconds, thought blitzing proved very difficult in madstone and prison quests design and the annoying bug causing you to lose all stacks when entering any gateway (Madstone has tons of gateways constantly shutting it down, Prison has big gaps in fights, Cabal it worked fairly well.)

Mini Bosses:
Prison of the Planes:
As mentioned, the Marilith is fearsome and actually encourages real teamwork, though is too easy to trivialize via ottos irresistable. Suggest: Keep orange named, but give her mindblock.
Marut: 2nd hardest boss in the quest. Hits hard, high DCs, dispels, etc. While we took her down with just me and the cleric, it was a solid challenge. Keep as is.

Beholder/Vamp/Any caster boss: Ultra weak. Seems like not a single EE enemy the game has any reasonable spell power after you did that nerf to lower heroic spell power.. Really poor design. At the bare minimum, every EE caster should have maximize and empower.. So there top dmg spells like chain lightning should be doing dmg in the 400+ range. Instead we faced caster that dealt pathetic damage in the 50-100 range.

It's a broken system. Low lvl elite, casters are the big risk as they can take out a significant portion of your hp %, then by end game they are entirely trivial unless they use CC/Dispel attacks, damage spells are completely trivial for any decently geared character at endgame.

Madstone: No real mini bosses here. The change to the last crystal is a nice touch to add some combat.

Cabal: Each of the mini boss luitenants went down in 3-10 seconds due to being oranged named and our wizard shutting them down with ottos or holds. They need mindblock or at least FoM.

Bossses:

Prison wraith/quarforged:
Having 2 bosses adds some minor challenge, but ultimately they are pretty pathetic. No deaths in this fights and no real preparation ,we zerged in without all the party, had minimal to no buffs, and easily won.

Madstone Skeleton:
Another obvious flaw in design: He has similiar hp to the non undead bosses. And 100% fort.. That SEVERELY drops our dps, which caused the fight to take a good 3-4 times as long as the other bosses. A good ~8mins of beating on him, and a boring 8 minutes at that, because he poses absolutely no threat to level25s. I mean he has seemingly no way to harm us. He only tosses you around and uses CC spells which we can easily counter with fom/mass heal. His one attack seemed to be chain lightning, which did a pathetic 200 damage.
Suggest: Give him some SERIOUS spells:
-Trap the soul, high DC
-Disintegrate, max emp, should hit for 900+ dmg. DC60+
-Horrid Wilting
Remove his **** spells so he doesnt waste time:
-Hold monster (We are lvl25, we figured out what Freedom of movement is)
-Symbol of pain, useful debuff perhaps, but his AI wastes too much time spamming it. If he only did it once at the start, it would be good.
Drop his hp by 30% to account for his 100% fort, infact do this on ALL epic undead.

Cabal Rogue and King Bendix:
We did the quest the hard way - killed the rogue at the start, as we had our own rogue to try out the EE traps.
Traps: Pathetic, zergd through them several times, no one died except to the optional chest one after the rogue blew the box, at the end of the quest when we came back to try for it.
Rogue: Bugged AI. He does that silly hopping thing like a kobold. Just hops backa nd forth, made no attempt to attack us much at all. Maybe once or twice.
King Bendix: Attacks very slow, thus is trivial like any slow hitting melee. I even purpose intimed him and moved him near our lower hp party members to see if he could kill anyone, no one died despite my best efforts :eek:

Also all the loot seen so far is rather boring. Tons of great ideas were posted on the forums in the last few months, yet zero suggestions seem to have been taken, and minimal effort seems to have been made in designing these cookie cutter upgrades.

Loot:
No epic tokens/fragments/seals/anything at all fun. Horrible design choice imo. You spent tons of developer time making a very cool system, then completely abandon it for one no one asked for.. While leaving old quests the same, creating this very uneven and disappointing experience.

Overall:
Highest level epic elites.. Far easier then many lower lvl ones. No challenge, no fun.

PS:
Either flagging is broken or contrary to the notes, Tor is also required.. As after I completed all three of these I could not enter Reaver, nor the new Truthful one raid. My quest log told me to run Tor next, I'll do that tonight.

-Zephyr-
01-18-2013, 02:47 PM
Running Returning to the madstone crater EH (but really because I needed it to flag... protecting NPCs really isn't fun !), I found out the seers had a new skin... But only when freeing them from the enchanters. Old skins are still used when we meet them back at the crystals.

4tonmantis
01-18-2013, 06:47 PM
There was a LOT of confusion about the quests.. and no option to select the first arc or return to.
As a result, I ran the first ones, only on Epic.. rather than Return To. I don't know what the difference is yet as I'm trying out Fall of Truth now (would've been FAT if it was Falls at Truth :P ). Anyway, the flagging process for the epic raid needs to be on separate NPCs.. as it is, this causes grief and confusion.

sirgog
01-18-2013, 08:30 PM
Madstone Crater, EN (just ran it quickly in case it was needed to flag):


Some mobs in the tunnels need a way to counter invis zerging. Give the Runetusk Scouts See Invisibility and crippling arrows at least, otherwise the tunnels will be ignored.

The Ancient Enchanters were clearly bugged at CR 12 and posing no threat. Not sure how strong you want them to be but they should at least be on-par with level 24 EN minibosses (say 4000hp solo, 8000 full group, some spells that are non-trivial). I've heard these are a joke on EE too and remain the weakest mobs in the instance.

As for the crystals - the giants have so many HP relative to mob attacks that you can invis yourself and have the giant tank everything, go AFK, do the ironing, come back and the crystal is dead and the giant is still at nearly full HP. These encounters shouldn't be hard (it's EN after all) but they should require some player action to win (either healing the giant, killing the attacking mobs, or a combination of both).

Not sure what the boss at the end was trying to do to me other than the $#@!ing telekinesis spam. IMO he should have some persistant AoE spells (Incendiary Cloud, Cloudkill, whatever), a single-target no save DPS spell (Black Dragon Bolt or Polar Ray) and AoE damage spells that attack different saves (Mass Inflict Critical, Horrid Wilting, Chain Lightning, etc). EN he shouldn't hit hard (say Black Dragon Bolt hitting for 75+75+75 in four-player EN), EE he should (300+300+300 or something like that).

4tonmantis
01-18-2013, 09:34 PM
Madstone Crater, EN (just ran it quickly in case it was needed to flag):


Some mobs in the tunnels need a way to counter invis zerging. Give the Runetusk Scouts See Invisibility and crippling arrows at least, otherwise the tunnels will be ignored.

The Ancient Enchanters were clearly bugged at CR 12 and posing no threat. Not sure how strong you want them to be but they should at least be on-par with level 24 EN minibosses (say 4000hp solo, 8000 full group, some spells that are non-trivial). I've heard these are a joke on EE too and remain the weakest mobs in the instance.

As for the crystals - the giants have so many HP relative to mob attacks that you can invis yourself and have the giant tank everything, go AFK, do the ironing, come back and the crystal is dead and the giant is still at nearly full HP. These encounters shouldn't be hard (it's EN after all) but they should require some player action to win (either healing the giant, killing the attacking mobs, or a combination of both).

Not sure what the boss at the end was trying to do to me other than the $#@!ing telekinesis spam. IMO he should have some persistant AoE spells (Incendiary Cloud, Cloudkill, whatever), a single-target no save DPS spell (Black Dragon Bolt or Polar Ray) and AoE damage spells that attack different saves (Mass Inflict Critical, Horrid Wilting, Chain Lightning, etc). EN he shouldn't hit hard (say Black Dragon Bolt hitting for 75+75+75 in four-player EN), EE he should (300+300+300 or something like that).

Madstone Epic is not needed for Fall of Truth.. Return to Madstone Epic is needed.. that's what messed me up/confused me.
As for the last fight in Madstone Epic, I got lost, by the time I found my way up there the fight was over..

Jitty
01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
Elite flagging quests are to easy. Fun yes, challenging no.

DarkForte
01-19-2013, 12:40 AM
EE Cabal: my fvs, 1 barb, 1 pally splash.

No elements were too hard by themselves, mobs still spam glitterdust (ugh!). Seems like a good part of the quest would become easier with a decent arcane. End bosses are basically meatsacks of huge hp, not fun at all to fight. My gear was getting damaged more than usual. A boring quest overall. I wouldn't run it on live as is unless significant changes were made.

EE Prison:

Most of the quest is simple. I didn't get to fight the marut due to coming in late. Mob saves seemed outright low on the trash. The named mobs were mostly trivial save for the Marilith: hitting for 200 on each hand, 3 attacks at once (had we skipped that room, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have had to use pots at all). My poor fvs was being one-shotted. We basically drained her to death while kiting, which seemed really anticlimatic (our arcane was outside). I'd suggest toning HP and damage down a bit (to compensate for the massive amount of draining we do now), but change them to red-names, they deserve better. Vampire (only one we didn't neg to oblivion - save for the marut I didn't get to see) was utterly weak in damage output, and yet had buttloads of hp (or maybe it's just the effect of having 100% fort on a boss that can't be negged or stunned, especially since our group had a bbn and a rogue, two very crit-dependent dpsers). I'd suggest either buffing the vampire's damage output or reducing his HP to match. Right now he's a fortified meatsack.

One thing that surprised me is that the dcs on the mind flayers' blast are HUGE. My FvS was failing the saves of mind blast on a roll of 60. Other than that they were mostly harmless.

End fight was surprisingly easy compared to rest of the quest, even with the 2 bosses. Overall I liked the quest.

oweieie
01-19-2013, 01:18 AM
Cabal: Each of the mini boss luitenants went down in 3-10 seconds due to being oranged named and our wizard shutting them down with ottos or holds. They need mindblock or at least FoM.

You're asking for MORE immunities on mobs? That is ridiculous. This is supposed to be at least passingly like DnD. If you want this nonsense, go play something else. Until disjunction works like it should giving bosses ANY immunities is bad. There are many ways to make a fight harder, your suggestion is the absolute worst one.


-Trap the soul, high DC
-Disintegrate, max emp, should hit for 900+ dmg. DC60+

If you aren't alone in wanting to randomly die with nothing you can do about it short of just not playing the quest, you are in a very very very small minority. Again, worst suggestion ever.

Texlaw1992
02-25-2013, 06:12 PM
Decided to kill some time and flag for Reaver's Fate again with the "normal" version of the quests.

End fight in normal Tor was fun - one shot destruction of both pillars and the boss, all of which appeared to have only 1 hp each.

I do not believe that's WAI.