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oldweasel
01-16-2013, 08:53 AM
In reading the forums and talking to folks in-game, it appears that due to the prevalence of heavy-hitting magic (fireballs, lightning bolts, etc) that heavy armor builds are useless, especially for the times when one has to solo, and evasion builds are king.

If so, why even have heavy armor in the game?

Please let me know if I am misreading things, I would love to play a heavy armor build, but it just doesn't appear to be viable, thanks in advance!

Myrdinn
01-16-2013, 09:03 AM
My answer would be that while there is a good use to evasion with light armor or cloth, there are some monster in DDO that hit pretty hard if you don't have any physical resistance. The more heavy your armor is, the less dmg you take from physical. Some situation are better for evasion while other are better for heavy armor. But most of the time, when you wield heavy armor, you have the hp to go with it so the healer can heal you as you received magic attack.

Everything depend on what you face.

Chai
01-16-2013, 09:19 AM
Heavy armor builds are completely viable. Im still rocking a 18 paladin 2 fighter with high saves and absorb gear for what spells / elemental damage I know will be used in specific quests. Going with light armor means taking more melee damage due to far less PRR.

oldweasel
01-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Heavy armor builds are completely viable. Im still rocking a 18 paladin 2 fighter with high saves and absorb gear for what spells / elemental damage I know will be used in specific quests. Going with light armor means taking more melee damage due to far less PRR.

Thanks for giving me hope! As someone new to the game, should I just use DDO wiki to look up what elemental resistances I might need for a particular quest?

FuzzyDuck81
01-16-2013, 09:35 AM
With the changes to AC & introduction of PRR, heavy armour is totally viable, but as always its a matter of trade-offs... be better defended vs. physical damage from melee & ranged, or be better able to shrug off spells. Certain buffs (resist/prot from energy, shield/nightshield, fireshield) can reduce a lot of incoming spell damage, and similarly certain other spells can help you absorb (stoneskin, ablative armour) or avoid (blur, displacement) physical damage.

Basically, just find a character type you enjoy playing as, play to their strengths & minimise their weaknesses where appropriate through buffs, tactics, gear etc. My personal preference is not to overspecialise, but instead have a primary "theme" of the character, a set of secondary skills to support them & some tertiary capabilities to fill out any gaps & add versatility.

For a heavy armour build with great survivability, paladins are immensely durable, also a deep-splash favoured soul or cleric can be very effective in combat while having a nice selection of buffs, healing etc. capabilities too. One such character i run fairly often is http://ddocrafting.info/index.php?server=thelanis&charName=harlech&lookup=Lookup!&p=myddo he's certainly not uber, though he's durable, self-sufficient, decent in a fight.. basically like a paladin in playstyle with a few different abilities & looser morals :)


Thanks for giving me hope! As someone new to the game, should I just use DDO wiki to look up what elemental resistances I might need for a particular quest?

That's a good bet, and often the quest description in the journal can give a good idea. As you get more experienced, you'll get a feel for what kind of capabilities different enemies have too.

Ushurak
01-16-2013, 09:47 AM
FINALLY!!

A thread not involving nerfs, byoh, loot and exploits...

I am interested in this very topic since I am going to TR my twf FS into some form of twf Palli build.

I am trying to figure out if I should splash 2 Rogue and use light armor for the evasion which would place me around the 80ish mark for ac...currently 70ish with Spidersilks.

Would love to see 100 ac.

My current build is 15 fs/3 palli/2 monk

Hopefully this thread will give me a good focus before it is time to tr.

Ape_Man
01-16-2013, 09:53 AM
Heavy armor is very good now. PRR always works and or places where AC does work it's much better with the U14 changes.

At low levels Full Plate of invulnerability is practically god-mode.

FuzzyDuck81
01-16-2013, 10:04 AM
FINALLY!!

A thread not involving nerfs, byoh, loot and exploits...

I am interested in this very topic since I am going to TR my twf FS into some form of twf Palli build.

I am trying to figure out if I should splash 2 Rogue and use light armor for the evasion which would place me around the 80ish mark for ac...currently 70ish with Spidersilks.

Would love to see 100 ac.

My current build is 15 fs/3 palli/2 monk

Hopefully this thread will give me a good focus before it is time to tr.

Well that build should be totally viable.. since you'll have less PRR than with heavy armour, you'll just have to boost your defences some other way - I'm assuming you'd still want the defender of siberys PrE for the stance (combat expertise would be a qualifying feat you could still benefit from while using 2 weapons) which would give str, con, bonus HP & some PRR so you'd have more physical resistance than many other 2wf characters.

Personally, unless you're after the UMD & a touch of sneak attack, i'd suggest going 18pally/2monk for the bonus feats & you can still wear light armour & have evasion functioning fine - you just wont be centered. If you make it a half elf, you could go with rogue dilly for the sneak attack, or maybe monk (as an exception to the "dont take the same dilly as a class you have) in order to get a nice chunk of extra healing amp, or possibly sorcerer could also be useful for the no-umd scroll & wand use (displacement, tensers, stoneskin, false life, shield/nightshield, blur are all handy)

unbongwah
01-16-2013, 10:07 AM
This is an oversimplification, but:


AC & PRR protect against physical attacks and heavy armor provides more of both than med or light armor does.
Dodge bonuses also protect against physical attacks and are capped by the max DEX bonus (MDB) of your armor (and tower shield if you use one); so the lighter the armor, the higher the MDB is and thus the higher your Dodge cap is.
Evasion + good Reflex saves protect against a lot of traps & spells; Evasion works in robes or light armor but not med or hvy armor. [Improved Evasion is even nicer - you only take half-dmg (vs full) on a failed save - but only monks & rogues can get it.]

There are tradeoffs - raising one form of defense lowers another - and what works best depends on what you're fighting. I like builds which can change tactics & gear; a pally 18 / monk 2 makes for a very survivable melee toon, esp. if making a tank, who can wear light armor when Evasion is more useful and med or heavy when AC+PRR is.

Indoran
01-16-2013, 10:15 AM
FINALLY!!

A thread not involving nerfs, byoh, loot and exploits...

I am interested in this very topic since I am going to TR my twf FS into some form of twf Palli build.

I am trying to figure out if I should splash 2 Rogue and use light armor for the evasion which would place me around the 80ish mark for ac...currently 70ish with Spidersilks.

Would love to see 100 ac.

My current build is 15 fs/3 palli/2 monk

Hopefully this thread will give me a good focus before it is time to tr.

your current build looks better than a Pally TWF :P (have played 3 pallies, 1 twf and 2 with handwraps) I used rogue Rogue... but the monk splash gives feats to one of the most feat starved classes...

bigolbear
01-16-2013, 10:35 AM
In reading the forums and talking to folks in-game, it appears that due to the prevalence of heavy-hitting magic (fireballs, lightning bolts, etc) that heavy armor builds are useless, especially for the times when one has to solo, and evasion builds are king.

If so, why even have heavy armor in the game?

Please let me know if I am misreading things, I would love to play a heavy armor build, but it just doesn't appear to be viable, thanks in advance!

You are misreading things.

heavy armour builds are completely viable.

1. in order to have evasion be effective you need a good reflex save - people often forget this.
2. in many cases a good refelx save + appropriate resist means you take 0 damage from spells like fireball - without evasion.
3. AC is a vaible form of defence, Physical resistance makes a huge difference on higher dificulty settings.


Its ultimately a case of picking what your going to be good/bad against - and then trying to shore up your weaknesses and build on your strengths.

hvy armour build:
strong vs: archers, meles.
week vs: casters.

light/no armour evasive build:
strong vs: casters.
week vs: archers, meles.

Now there are multiple ways to improve your defences vs various foes.

to better survive -
casters: get saving throws and resists, elemental/spell absorbtion, spell resistance, deathblock, combat tactics.
archers: spear block. greater spear block is the single best archer defence item I know of.
meles(warriors): physical resistance, dodge, AC, active blocking, combat tactics, fortification.
meles(rogues): SPOT.. dont underestimate the usefulness of spot vs enemy rogues. fortification (including exceptional)

Many enemies come under multiple categories - example orthons are are meles and archers.

I will also point out that DPS (damage per second), burst damage (damage done sudenly and quickly), combat tactics (trip/stun) and player skill in recognising threats are some of the best forms of defence VS 'trash' mobs. A dead bad guy or one lying on his ass cant hurt you or your freinds.


PRR vs dodge:
Now it is very hard for a light armour/no armour evasion build to get good physical resistance, and its not easy for them to get good AC. Dodge is easy(ish) to aquire for those builds but at much lower numbers than physical resistance - getting a 20+ % dodge s very hard, whereas getting 20% physical damage mitigation for a hvy armour wearer is very easy and it can get as high as 50% on some 'tank builds'.

AC comparisons for evasive vs hvy plate.
it is much easier to aquire a good AC on a hvy armour wearer. Ultimately it is posisble to get good AC whichever path you choose but an evasive build is harder to gear that way a true TANK ac is much much easier to get with a ton of steel between you and the enemy.

SAVING THROWS:
An evasive character tends to have a higher DEX, they also tend to get good reflex saves from their class choices. A full plate wearer will have to work hard here to get a decent refelex save - but with the right gear, enhancements and Epic destiny its more than possibly to get a great reflex save - coupled with resists/absorbtion yuor defence vs enemy evocations will be fine. fortitude and will saves are also important for other spells, and frankly its only casters/monks/paladins that get an easy time with will save, and all mele have decent fort saves.

HITPOITNS:
hitpoints are of course your last line of defence, an evasive character will be spending lots of build points on dex, and that means a little less spent in con - a plate wearer will tend to have mor hit points.

If you need any further help with build specifics just reply to this thread with your questions or pm me.

bigolbear
01-16-2013, 10:45 AM
Thanks for giving me hope! As someone new to the game, should I just use DDO wiki to look up what elemental resistances I might need for a particular quest?

well Id say as some one new - go in first time and enjoy the experience of not knowing whats coming!

If you join a high is llv guild (60+) then you will have access to ship buffs and these can be a convenient source of reists.

To do it the 'old fashioned way' if you cant cast resist energy then dedicate one item slot to resists. swap as needed.
Id recomend cloak slot.

Enoach
01-16-2013, 11:31 AM
Things that us Heavy Armor Wearer's Should always keep in mind:

Max Dexterity Bonus <- Having a Dexterity Bonus Less than your Max Dexterity Bonus means your missing out on your potential. Having a Dexterity Bonus much greater than our Max Dexterity Bonus means a potential waste. The Goal here is balance, you want to be able to use this ability to its Maximum potential.

Examples on how I handle "Reflex" and other Spell Damage.


Elements - Elemental Protection (Potion/UMD), Elemental Resist (Potion/UMD/Spell/Ship/House Favor), Elemental Absorption item (Loot/Crafted), Fire/Ice Fireshield (UMD or also comes on some items in different forms)
Magic Missiles - UMD or Clicky of Shield/Night Shield (not a reflex save)
Negative Energy - UMD or Clicky or Spell of Deathward
Instant Death Spells - UMD or Clicky or Deathblock Item (Deathward also works, but in the case of Dispel)
Best saves I can possibly get. A save means 0 to 1/2 damage depending on spell. With other resist/protects/absorption in effect a Save can make the damage seem negligible.


Personally I think even evasion characters can benefit from some of these as well.

Ushurak
01-16-2013, 11:45 AM
So, as a follow up to my last post int his thread:

If I go 14 Palli/6 fighter I could wear heavy armor and have a nice AC and have fairly nice saves.
Can this build take Knight of Chalice II and Kensai I?

If both Prestiges can be taken on this build, would it be a better build than:

12 palli (KotC II)/6 Fighter (Kensai I)/2 Rogue (evasion) wearing light armor

It should be obvious that I am trying to get enough Palli levels to self heal and make my toon better at melee on its second life than on the 1st.

After all my lives are done (only 3 for 36 pnt build) I will still be a TWF only for the fact that I worked REALLY hard to get 2 Oathblades and my EDs for Unyielding is complete which makes Oathblades freaking monsters.

Edit:
Sorry Oldweasal, not trying to derail your thread...but it kind of fits since I have never made a heavy armor build and would like to know what I should expect...I already know that I will lose evasion but is there a certain point where the overwhelming AC and HP will make up for it...

If you would like me to move this to a separate thread, I can do that.

AbyssalMage
01-16-2013, 02:46 PM
Heavy Armour is very viable.

What I have actually seen in builds now is the "requirement" for 14 base Dex so your reflex save will be decent in EE. Probably for the reason you posted this very question. Then again, if you are not going for EE content, I doubt 14 base Dex is needed.

samthedagger
01-16-2013, 02:55 PM
Before Update 14, heavy armor was pretty useless past level 10 or so. Post Update 14, heavy armor is AMAZINGLY useful for those classes which receive it. I actually give up the Clerics of Amaunator set on my cleric for the Purple Dragon set because of how useful heavy armor is for mitigating damage in endgame content (EE High Road and CitW). (There really ought to be a heavy armor option for Clerics of Amaunator btw. I understand that Favored Souls need to be able to use the armor too, but Clerics have such little love gear-wise in the game right now.) I also use EE Bastion as my shield because heavy armor + a great shield is a fantastic combo. While it is true that evasion is incredibly helpful, you can avoid the need for it with a decent Reflex save and other means of damage mitigation (such as energy resistance + energy absorption, not to mention a few other things). I see evasion as more of a convenience than a necessity. It allows you zerg through things you might otherwise have to take a little time on. Evasion is also more helpful (IMHO) while leveling than it is at endgame, because at endgame you have to have an exceptional Reflex to be capable of evading EE mob effects and traps.

So worry not. Heavy armor is and will continue to be very useful. There is still a contingent of players who have been playing the game for years with evasion-based toons who never bothered to invest in armor and probably either haven't put much effort into it or just refuse to change. But I have tried both sides of the coin and both are good ways of mitigating damage. Evasion tanks still have their place too, but it is difficult to get an effective PRR/DR/AC with an evasion build. Not impossible, just difficult (i.e. usually requires several past lives and some twink gear).

squishwizzy
01-16-2013, 04:13 PM
I've got a pally tank with DoS that I'm leveling now. Between the high PRR, fortification, and heavy armor he's almost untouchable.

But he is unbearably slooooooooow...

unbongwah
01-16-2013, 04:30 PM
If I go 14 Palli/6 fighter I could wear heavy armor and have a nice AC and have fairly nice saves.
Can this build take Knight of Chalice II and Kensai I?
Yes. Although personally I'd rather do pally 18 / ftr or monk 2 so you could take your 3rd-tier pally PrE and a few other goodies: Divine Might III, a 2nd lvl 4 spell slot (Zeal + DW or CSW), Exalted Smite IV (tho it's expensive).

Artos_Fabril
01-16-2013, 05:35 PM
FINALLY!!

A thread not involving nerfs, byoh, loot and exploits...

I am interested in this very topic since I am going to TR my twf FS into some form of twf Palli build.

I am trying to figure out if I should splash 2 Rogue and use light armor for the evasion which would place me around the 80ish mark for ac...currently 70ish with Spidersilks.

Would love to see 100 ac.

My current build is 15 fs/3 palli/2 monk

Hopefully this thread will give me a good focus before it is time to tr.
Depending on what you have already in terms of gear and tomes, You could easily go 18/2FTR or 18/2MNK. If you have a pair of Celestias and wanted a later game build, I'd consider a Drow 14/6 HotD/Ninja-spy (not because it's great, but because it ought to be fun and self-sufficient)

Zorth
01-16-2013, 05:53 PM
The Reason I play a melee in this game is beause it is hard to play. I push the envelope and like to play classes that require talent behind the keyboard to make them eyebrow raising!

I have a question. If I have Greater Two handed fighting and I Kensie Bastard Sword And/Or Dwarven Axe and I take the feat and use a shield does it work?

Is it Viable?

Or if I choose just to spite! and use a Dwaven axe and or Bastard sword with a dex of 8 of one in hand

verad
01-16-2013, 07:22 PM
sadly your right.......

the intent was to make heavy armor good in the game by giving it the higher PRR.
However because of the PRR curve you can still attain 100+ in light compared to
say heavy armor its around a 5-9% damage reduction.... of which you tend to
lose a higher capacity for dodge % and then of course lose any chance of evasion.

I just TR'd a 18/2 pal/fighter heavy armor user into a 18/2 fighter/mnk light armor
user and I hit 112 prr 25% dodge evasion with 40+ reflex....

There is no comparison in tanking ability In EE's sadly.

My survivability has gone way up with my only sacrifice being 20-30ish ac and 6% PRR.

AC needs a little bump
PRR needs a better curve and heavy armor needs a base number of starting prr no matter the level of bap or player.
Heavy armor needs to give natural hate%

V

pokeoutyoureardrums
01-16-2013, 07:55 PM
This may not fall into the context properly, but as a fizard H. Armor makes worlds of difference.

For multiple reasons, there are times when, having run out of sp i find it more expedient to just slap on my armor, bust out my ginsus and jump into the melee, than it would be to use pots or drain other's sp for the sake of my own. Without that armor i wouldn't stand a chance.

Before anyone asks or comments, i have a variety of slashing weapons with effects that make up what i lack in str. Also, my attack bonus is based on my dex, which is pretty high for a wizard -well, it is when i re-equip myself for the situation. That and the heavy armor allow for a more versatile play style that i enjoy very much.

So, in my opinion, heavy armor is fairly useful stuff to keep around.

MULTI EDIT: kept forgetting stuff

danzig138
01-16-2013, 08:01 PM
Thanks for giving me hope! As someone new to the game, should I just use DDO wiki to look up what elemental resistances I might need for a particular quest?

No. You should go in, and if you get spanked, use it as a learning experience. Just like the rest of us had to do way back when.

Zirun
01-16-2013, 08:08 PM
the intent was to make heavy armor good in the game by giving it the higher PRR.
However because of the PRR curve you can still attain 100+ in light compared to
say heavy armor its around a 5-9% damage reduction.... of which you tend to
lose a higher capacity for dodge % and then of course lose any chance of evasion.

The thing about PRR is you need to put it into context in order to understand what exactly you're getting out of it.

15% DR is only 5% more than 10%, and 99% is also only 5% more than 94%. That extra 5% DR is much, much more powerful in the latter case than the former.

10% DR = 1.111111x more durable
15% DR = 1.176471x more durable
94% DR = 16.66666x more durable
99% DR = 100x more durable

See how stark the difference is?

Each point of PRR has exactly the same amount of power as the previous point (ignoring rounding). 1 PRR increases your effective health by 0.65%.

If you want to get really into it, you can figure out exactly what is better in terms of heavy armor PRR vs. lighter armor dodge, but they're both viable options for different builds.

unbongwah
01-16-2013, 08:22 PM
If I have Greater Two handed fighting and I Kensie Bastard Sword And/Or Dwarven Axe and I take the feat and use a shield does it work?
If I can decipher your question: are you asking do you get glancing blows (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow) w/d.axe or b.sword with THF feats while S&B? If so, then the answer is yes.

AbyssalMage
01-16-2013, 08:57 PM
The thing about PRR is you need to put it into context in order to understand what exactly you're getting out of it.

15% DR is only 5% more than 10%, and 99% is also only 5% more than 94%. That extra 5% DR is much, much more powerful in the latter case than the former.

10% DR = 1.111111x more durable
15% DR = 1.176471x more durable
94% DR = 16.66666x more durable
99% DR = 100x more durable

See how stark the difference is?

Each point of PRR has exactly the same amount of power as the previous point (ignoring rounding). 1 PRR increases your effective health by 0.65%.

If you want to get really into it, you can figure out exactly what is better in terms of heavy armor PRR vs. lighter armor dodge, but they're both viable options for different builds.
Not following your logic.
DR = Damage Reduction
PRR = Is a different beast all together that uses an algebraic/Trig equation.

And what is "More durable". I don't usually follow AC threads, and I am assuming you are using terminology from said threads here without defining said terms. I followed the initial threads of PRR and understood the graphs Turbine provided. But I don't remember any of those initial threads mentioning "More durable."

Zirun
01-16-2013, 09:07 PM
Not following your logic.
DR = Damage Reduction
PRR = Is a different beast all together that uses an algebraic/Trig equation.

And what is "More durable". I don't usually follow AC threads, and I am assuming you are using terminology from said threads here without defining said terms. I followed the initial threads of PRR and understood the graphs Turbine provided. But I don't remember any of those initial threads mentioning "More durable."

PRR gives damage reduction in % form. It reduces damage by 10%, it's 10% DR. It's just a fast, simple way of writing it.

If somebody is 1.111111x more durable, it takes 1.11111x more damage to kill them. In other words, it takes 11.1111% more damage to kill them. 2x more durable means it takes double the damage (200%) to kill.

If you want to compare how effective %-based changes in damage are, you have to look at how many attacks it takes to kill, not the %, which is what I was correcting the person I quote on.

oldweasel
01-18-2013, 01:43 PM
Heavy armor is very good now. PRR always works and or places where AC does work it's much better with the U14 changes.

At low levels Full Plate of invulnerability is practically god-mode.

Where does one get said plate armor? :)

If craftable, is it craftable by a low-level char (1st char in DDO), or should I try to find one on the AH?

Artos_Fabril
01-18-2013, 02:12 PM
Where does one get said plate armor? :)

If craftable, is it craftable by a low-level char (1st char in DDO), or should I try to find one on the AH?
Unless you really enjoy crafting, for a first character (at low levels) you should just sell your essences and buy the crafted items you want. Once you are not scrounging for coppers and have your first peice of GS gear and are getting ready to think about TRing, then take up crafting if you want to make twink gear for TRs or alts.