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View Full Version : Make every BtC raid Loot BtA/BtC on equip



nibel
01-06-2013, 03:36 PM
What says on the title. Many people already throw this idea around, just keeping it alive.

Reason is simple: Doing this, it allow us to switch characters to run the raids with the characters we need, while getting loot for the characters we want. The most common scenario is when the raid need healers, but no one want to switch because they need item X with their rogue/fighter/wizard/whatever.

EDIT for clarification: Bound to Account on Acquire, Bound to Character on Equip

Jasparion
01-06-2013, 03:41 PM
I doubt too many people are saying Raid loot should be bound on equip. Raids are meant to be the pinnacle of any MMO and the rewards are meant to be the best in the game. You really think the loot should be freely available on the Auction House?

As big a -1 as is possible on this for me.

In part because the next step would be making it available in the DDO Store.

nibel
01-06-2013, 03:46 PM
I doubt too many people are saying Raid loot should be bound on equip. Raids are meant to be the pinnacle of any MMO and the rewards are meant to be the best in the game. You really think the loot should be freely available on the Auction House?

You can't sell BtA items on the Auction House.

Jay203
01-06-2013, 03:50 PM
perhaps when people are more willing to share, i'll sign
as of right now, naaah

CaptainSpacePony
01-06-2013, 03:58 PM
Not signed. BtA or BtCoE are both merely means of twinking. Most raid loot is BtCoA so that you MUST COMPLETE THE RAID TO GET THE GEAR. WAI seems fine with me.

Niv-mizzet
01-06-2013, 04:19 PM
I like it. BTA on acquire so you DO have to run the raid yourself. BTC on equip so you can bring the toon that helps the party more, over the toon that wants the loot more.

There IS a downside, in that you will almost never see DESIRABLE raid loot for roll again. If they were to do this, I would be incredibly disappointed in the devs if they didn't also FINALLY make 20th lists full reward lists.

Jasparion
01-06-2013, 04:23 PM
Not signed. BtA or BtCoE are both merely means of twinking. Most raid loot is BtCoA so that you MUST COMPLETE THE RAID TO GET THE GEAR. WAI seems fine with me.

Exactly.

Even with buying your way around raid timers, you still have to actually run the raid if you want the loot.

BTCoE people would just skip the raid and buy from the AH. BTA raids would have 10xWiz/Sorc and 2xCleric/FvS for every run and then Shared Bank trade the loot to their other toons.

Cauthey
01-06-2013, 04:24 PM
No.

/not signed.

If your X toon wants the loot, make that toon work for it.


Not to mention - changing the binding status on existing items erodes the efforts of those who have already raided for said items. No.

Jasparion
01-06-2013, 04:33 PM
Not to mention - changing the binding status on existing items erodes the efforts of those who have already raided for said items. No.

Im not that concerned about this part. Nerfs and buffs to items happen.

What I am concerned about is people getting BiS loot on toons which didnt earn it.

I think random loot should be unbound, dungeon named loot should be BTA, raid named loot should be BTC. A simple system.

shadereaper33
01-06-2013, 05:21 PM
Personally, I fully support the OP's suggestion. I can't understand the arguments of "if you want it, you have to earn it" as you would still be running the raid. The only difference is that instead of waiting 15 minutes for a healer or other desirable build to join the raid, someone could simply switch over to that build to help the raid and still have a shot at getting the gear they want/need for the right characters. This is one of the biggest draws to shroud in my opinion, as I can run it with multiple characters and eventually get what I want on who I want. I am still running the raid, I am still "earning" the loot, it would just make it easier to fill the group and actually play the game.

/signed

Cyiwin
01-06-2013, 05:27 PM
Definitely,

/signed

How are you not earning it because your playing a different class? In that case raid loot shouldn't carry over when you TR?

Andoris
01-06-2013, 06:31 PM
/not signed as I like the social/team aspect of putting loot up for roll (which would go away if this was implemented)

However, I could get behind the removal of lock-out mechanics so that you could form a balanced group for Raids that only have gear for one or two classes (ie allow swapping at the end)

Bloodhaven
01-06-2013, 06:51 PM
/not signed as I like the social/team aspect of putting loot up for roll (which would go away if this was implemented)

This was the exact argument for NOT adding TR to the game. I still see Popular raid items put up for roll.


Exactly.

Even with buying your way around raid timers, you still have to actually run the raid if you want the loot.

BTCoE people would just skip the raid and buy from the AH.

BTA with BTC on Equip. I dont see an option that allows the Auction house in there.




Personally, I fully support the OP's suggestion. I can't understand the arguments of "if you want it, you have to earn it" as you would still be running the raid. The only difference is that instead of waiting 15 minutes for a healer or other desirable build to join the raid, someone could simply switch over to that build to help the raid and still have a shot at getting the gear they want/need for the right characters. This is one of the biggest draws to shroud in my opinion, as I can run it with multiple characters and eventually get what I want on who I want. I am still running the raid, I am still "earning" the loot, it would just make it easier to fill the group and actually play the game
/signed

I agree with shadereaper33

/signed

Jasparion
01-06-2013, 07:32 PM
BTA with BTC on Equip. I dont see an option that allows the Auction house in there.


I think it was clarified after I posted. I assumed he mean BTA or BTCoE, not that the item would be BTA until you equipped it at which point it would be BTC.

I would be amazed if the DDO technology even allowed for this. Is it currently in the game?

And no, you are not earning it for your character if you do it on another character.

Enoach
01-06-2013, 07:58 PM
Here are the problem I see with BtAoA which becomes BtCoE for RAID gear, and thus the reason I won't sign for such a changes


It allows a character to obtain an item without ever having participated in the raid (extreme case)
It allows a character multiple chances per account to obtain an item. This gives VIP and those that have purchased multiple character slots a distinct advantage besides the Raid By Pass tool.
It is another nail in the coffin of PuG Raids and Community Cooperation


And this is from a person that has pulled a Sword of Shadows on every toon (some 2+ times) but the one he wants it on and I've been running the quest off-and-on since it came out.

Gkar
01-06-2013, 08:30 PM
I'm for having less binding, and especially less BtC, but I think the raid loot idea takes it too far.

The exception of course is where its not an item, but only an ingredient for an item. Then I have no problem with BtA (ala Shroud), or even unbound, as long as there is ONE ingredient that is BtC (once again, ala Shroud)

I actually think that Shroud has the best balance between bound/unbound in the game and all raids rewards should work along those lines.

Chaos000
01-06-2013, 09:29 PM
When the game first started all items were Bound to character the bound to account was a new invention. (Tangleroot, waterworks)

BtA BtC on equip is not game breaking for a lot of the straight BtC items (red fens, chrono, etc.)

If not BtC on equip initially I would hope to see an in game or in store mechanism to do just that.

Look for those that argue items won't be put up for roll, TR mechanism does not prevent this from occurring people still pass items because they already have multiples of these items having been playing since the inception of this game

Musouka
01-06-2013, 10:27 PM
/not signed

Not really going to give reason, because I don't feel like being analyzed.

Anaxx
01-06-2013, 10:43 PM
I'm all for this idea. I don't understand why people are so outraged about this and compare it to selling raid items in the store. It's the same person's butt sitting in the same chair playing the game; the only difference is the character they log on as.

Let us be team players. Let us bring whatever character is best for the group. I have a geared pure cleric healbot who sits around not running raids, not because I don't like healing, but because I don't want any gear on him--I want it on my other guy. And meanwhile I'm sitting in a raid with a bunch of other players waiting for a healer to join.

Next time you're sitting in a raid that's 10/12 or 11/12 full and waiting for a specific role, ask yourself if you'd rather be playing than waiting around. Because letting people bring whatever character the group needed without giving up their own incentive to run the raid (the gear) could certainly help speed up raid forming times.

Jasparion
01-06-2013, 11:04 PM
And when most raids become "Farming - Wiz/Sorc/FvS/Cleric only"...

Why bother allowing anything else to come along which will only slow the group down?

Uska
01-07-2013, 08:12 AM
NO raid gear should only be used by the character that earned it

Uska
01-07-2013, 08:14 AM
Personally, I fully support the OP's suggestion. I can't understand the arguments of "if you want it, you have to earn it" as you would still be running the raid. The only difference is that instead of waiting 15 minutes for a healer or other desirable build to join the raid, someone could simply switch over to that build to help the raid and still have a shot at getting the gear they want/need for the right characters. This is one of the biggest draws to shroud in my opinion, as I can run it with multiple characters and eventually get what I want on who I want. I am still running the raid, I am still "earning" the loot, it would just make it easier to fill the group and actually play the game.

/signed

Its pretty simple that character that uses it should earn it

Nephilia
01-07-2013, 11:20 AM
I'd prefer BtCoE, sincerely

1jazzz
01-10-2013, 12:20 AM
nah, tho some loot is debate if it should be btc or bta the bound type is very importaint

bound on equipt means you can sell and trade them
bound on acquire let the group roll or trade via chest

as annoying as it is this stabilizes the economy and ensures more runs

SardaofChaos
01-10-2013, 01:39 AM
Not to mention - changing the binding status on existing items erodes the efforts of those who have already raided for said items. No.

This argument is the equivalent of "I was just following orders" for games with items that you do stuff to get. It immediately disqualifies the user from further input.

Sdrg-Khyber
01-10-2013, 01:54 AM
I think BTA Raid items should be ok..... After all.... effort is effort........

Dont agree about selling em on the AH though.......

Memnir
01-10-2013, 01:56 AM
No thank you.

Aons
01-10-2013, 02:56 AM
/not signed

As said before, u get the gear that u loot. It's already too easy to get some gear from 12-18 raids when played at lvl 18-25 (so easy that the real question is why running it?)

Mastikator
01-10-2013, 05:05 AM
/signed with one caveat, no auction, no broker. You can trade it, you can mail it, you can give it away and sell it to a vendor, but no auction and no broker, the trade must be face to face, digitally speaking. ;)

nibel
01-10-2013, 05:40 AM
As already said...


You can't sell BtA items on the Auction House.

..so, no. There would be no raid items sales on AH.

For everyone that says "It should be earned on the same character", then we should change Shroud ingredients, epic seal/shard/scrolls, Stormreaver/Abbot marks, Chronoscope loot, and Cannith khyber fragments to be BtC as well?

Fomori
01-10-2013, 06:53 AM
/not signed

I think the simplest argument against the OP is that it works fine as it is. Sure there is some drama but overall its a system that functions with minimal issues.

If there is serious consideration about this then I hope that at the very least made it so you had to complete the raid once to "flag" for wearing the gear.

I might be ok with a slight alteration to the proposal. I would be fine if there was a mechanic where if there was only 1 character with a divine class over 10, then the first raid item that character pulled from the chest would be BtA/BtCoE.

This way it would allow someone to play a healer on the raid and still get an item for the toon they would have ran. The first item only would stop the abuse of giving ALL raid loot to the healer, to distribute to ALL his/her toons... and then repeating that for the other players with different characters.

Chai
01-10-2013, 06:57 AM
Any new method of making it easier to obtain loot will be a code you buy in the ddo store for that privilege. BTC is another barrier in the game that can likely be coded to pay to circumvent.

Mastikator
01-10-2013, 07:02 AM
Any new method of making it easier to obtain loot will be a code you buy in the ddo store for that privilege. BTC is another barrier in the game that can likely be coded to pay to circumvent.
If anything this would reduce pay2win raid-timer-bypass, since less raid loot would be sold to vendors and more would be sold to people who need them.

Chai
01-10-2013, 11:01 AM
If anything this would reduce pay2win raid-timer-bypass, since less raid loot would be sold to vendors and more would be sold to people who need them.

When this happens, it will reduce the need to run raids at all. We already dont have to farm most gear with toons that will use said gear, and we can already buy the gear for many slots off the AH.

I was speaking in more direct terms, where old world stuff, especially base items are still BTC. It wouldnt surprise me if an item ended up in the store to make BTC into BTA for base items like VON, reaver, abbot, DQ titan loot. Run DQ on your fighter, loot the torq, p2w, and taa-daaa now your caster has a torq. BTC base items are just another old school barrier, like raid timers, that can likely be turned into pay-to-bypass.

More should be GIVEN to people in the raid who need them, rather than sold to vendors. If theres 12 people in the raid who dont want it, what are the chances of buying a code to unlock the bind in order to sell it on the AH, and it actually selling? I would say very little.

Niv-mizzet
01-13-2013, 05:44 AM
I think some people are still misunderstanding Nibel's clarification. They seem to think he wants raid items on the auction house or something.

No he says pretty plainly: you loot it, it is now bta. you equip it, it is now btc.

Again, I like the idea. I would rather be ACTUALLY PLAYING the content than waiting on that poor divine who doesn't even want anything from the raid to suck it up and trudge along with us. And oh brother have I waited. I've spent some QUALITY time in some 11-guys-looking-for-a-divine pow-wows. Enough to make me remember trying to find a group in older generation Everquest.

Anything that stops me from sitting in front of the damn quest door and gets me IN THE QUEST PLAYING faster is a hundred steps forward in my book.

Certon
01-15-2013, 04:03 PM
While it seems like a good idea on the surface, it introduces a new element of scarcity when raiding. As it stands now, if a piece of raid loot drops that someone can't use, they transfer looting rights to someone that CAN use it. Make it BtA-BTCoE and it would create the incentive to keep things for other toons, or "just in case."

And that is the only reason I am saying 'no.'

Cyiwin
01-15-2013, 04:36 PM
While it seems like a good idea on the surface, it introduces a new element of scarcity when raiding. As it stands now, if a piece of raid loot drops that someone can't use, they transfer looting rights to someone that CAN use it. Make it BtA-BTCoE and it would create the incentive to keep things for other toons, or "just in case."

And that is the only reason I am saying 'no.'

People might keep their own pulls more but is it a bad thing? How important is it to keep the rolling mechanism?

Uska
01-15-2013, 10:46 PM
People might keep their own pulls more but is it a bad thing? How important is it to keep the rolling mechanism?

It seems very important to me without it I think some raids would get ran a lot less if people knew nobody will pass loot then they might not raid I know that if started happening I would proably just keep loot for my alts or pass only to friends and guildies.

Now I run raids sometimes knowing that there is nothing really for my character there and I am just helping friends/guildies/or even a pug. If it was BTA or BTCoE I would take everything instead of passing especially with BTCoE that one seems a raid killer

Uska
01-15-2013, 10:48 PM
I think some people are still misunderstanding Nibel's clarification. They seem to think he wants raid items on the auction house or something.

No he says pretty plainly: you loot it, it is now bta. you equip it, it is now btc.

Again, I like the idea. I would rather be ACTUALLY PLAYING the content than waiting on that poor divine who doesn't even want anything from the raid to suck it up and trudge along with us. And oh brother have I waited. I've spent some QUALITY time in some 11-guys-looking-for-a-divine pow-wows. Enough to make me remember trying to find a group in older generation Everquest.

Anything that stops me from sitting in front of the damn quest door and gets me IN THE QUEST PLAYING faster is a hundred steps forward in my book.


It would have me raiding less rather than more and cause me to say no more often when I am asked to join a raid with my characters that get asked.

JOTMON
01-16-2013, 08:56 AM
NO raid gear should only be used by the character that earned it

Yet we are the same players playing more than 1 toon.

Causes problems for lots of raids/quests for people who have healers or toon suited to fit the group but wont switch to them because the toon they are currently on is the one that wants the item and the item is BTC.

How many LFM's collapse because no healers want to pug runs that have absolutely nothing of any use to them. EDQ and EDragon runs still fill quickly because Seals/Shards are BTA.
Many players would switch to a character that would fit the party better instead of passing on the LFM all together if items were BTA.

Initially there may be more people pulling items to suit their other characters, but in a lot of cases people would eventually have the items they want and just run to help others... or even pass on items knowing that the option is there to loot for an alt at some point instead of looting for some future possible TR life.

I have run too many runs where something is left in the chest because BTC exclusive items are already held by the 1 or 2 people in the run that could have used it..
TOD for example... Switched to my cleric to get the run done and the ring I was after for my melee dropped and no one wanted it... It rotted in the chest.

Stupid thing I see now is Forgotten Realms.. quest named items are BTCoE so they can be rinse repeat/farm to death and AH to your hearts content..
Yet the chain end reward is BTCoA... what sense does that make.. you actually run the entire chain and you get a neutered list of items that you cant use on the current toon but see something an alt could use on the reward list and end up taking tales of valor.

Uska
01-16-2013, 09:12 AM
Yet we are the same players playing more than 1 toon.

Causes problems for lots of raids/quests for people who have healers or toon suited to fit the group but wont switch to them because the toon they are currently on is the one that wants the item and the item is BTC.

How many LFM's collapse because no healers want to pug runs that have absolutely nothing of any use to them. EDQ and EDragon runs still fill quickly because Seals/Shards are BTA.
Many players would switch to a character that would fit the party better instead of passing on the LFM all together if items were BTA.

Initially there may be more people pulling items to suit their other characters, but in a lot of cases people would eventually have the items they want and just run to help others... or even pass on items knowing that the option is there to loot for an alt at some point instead of looting for some future possible TR life.

I have run too many runs where something is left in the chest because BTC exclusive items are already held by the 1 or 2 people in the run that could have used it..
TOD for example... Switched to my cleric to get the run done and the ring I was after for my melee dropped and no one wanted it... It rotted in the chest.

Stupid thing I see now is Forgotten Realms.. quest named items are BTCoE so they can be rinse repeat/farm to death and AH to your hearts content..
Yet the chain end reward is BTCoA... what sense does that make.. you actually run the entire chain and you get a neutered list of items that you cant use on the current toon but see something an alt could use on the reward list and end up taking tales of valor.

I think when they have gotten their items the only people they may help is their guildies.

JOTMON
01-16-2013, 10:27 AM
I think when they have gotten their items the only people they may help is their guildies.

These would probably be the same people who are only running with guildies anyway.

maximus123123
01-16-2013, 11:21 AM
/Signed

I would go even further and say replace all BtC with BtA.
That way all of your gear can be moved from character to character.

Cyiwin
01-16-2013, 11:45 AM
/Signed

I would go even further and say replace all BtC with BtA.
That way all of your gear can be moved from character to character.

I would too because for me it is essentially all BTA. I only play one guy. I take him to 20 then start over. I'm a different class about every 2 or 3 months. I'm not sure how many others do this but it's fun for me.