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View Full Version : 3 quests - 3 horrible deaths, and practically nothing to show for it



stefferweffer
01-03-2013, 12:58 PM
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, just not these particular quests right now! Here I feared we were over-leveled (and indeed we may have been), and we still got wiped out.

Tuesday night - I take my 17/2 Pale Trapper (first life human) to Reaver's Refuge with my friend's first life Half Elf 17 Druid. We go to Mt. Reysalon, fight through the gnolls, and attempt the "Enter the Kobold" quest. Says Level 17, "Challenging". We both have Cleric hirelings (even though I usually don't need one). We enter on Normal, having read nothing about the quest before. We fight our way through and get to the floor puzzle room, with glowing lights of various colors everywhere. I HATE puzzles, and so does my friend. Unbelievably, we wander around randomly enough to where we actually get through it. So we head to the final battle (about 2 hours into the quest at this point). I read up on wiki and it says to be prepared with fire resists, displacement, blur, etc. We all go in with Stoneskin, Blur (Displacement for me), gobs of energy resists, and greater heroism. We kill the kobold guy, and then get promptly wiped out by the Efreeti and at least 4 frenzied fire elementals. So after 2 hours, we have practically nothing, and an expensive (for us at least) repair session.

Last night, we decide to try the Saomi Gardens quest instead. I forget what it's called, but its the one with a bunch of traps, lots of Drow, and many places to ride gusts of air. This time we also have a 3rd friend with us, a first life Human 16 Druid (we are all new). Again, level 17 "Challenging", and we choose Normal. I disarm all the traps, so we're excited about our + 15% xp bonus. We get into a huge room where gusts of air send you up to a spiked ceiling. The Druids die there, but my Evasion saves me. We res the dead druids and press on. Then we come to another puzzle. LOVELY. The 16 druid finally figures it out (he is our puzzle guy), and we press on to the final battle. We are about to check wiki, when this giant Scorrow boss comes running down the hallway toward us and pounding us hard. We start hurting him, and then he "pops" back to his starting location/room back at full health. We see the spots on the floor, and see that apparently we have a puzzle to figure out WHILE this guy pounds on us. Problem is, he is hitting us for over 90 damage each time, and I'm the only one there with over 300 hp. He's also apparently dropping disco balls everywhere. So for that battle we take turns dying, getting rezzed, friend dying, rezzing friend, etc, etc. I can start hurting him bad with my DOTs, but once I do he's on top of me and won't let up. I finally D-Door. We regroup, reshrine, and try again, and get wiped. Another expensive repair trip, and nothing to show for those 2 hours of play.

Then my friends want to do the 3rd and final "Madness" quest, but on "Hard" (the one with a giant mindflayer at the end). One of them has beaten it before with a 17 barbarian on Normal, and says that we can beat Hard with this group (16, 17, 19). But Hard means that each shrine can only be used one time. We go through with no problems, killing gobs of hounds and whatever those mutant things are called. My friend wants to take on the big Beholder. I say fine. Amazingly (the one good point of the night), we finally beat the Beholder with only one death. But this still leaves the final fight. We go to the final fight, some giant levitating arena with "pods" everywhere and a huge mindflayer boss to beat. The Druids focus on the spawning enemies and I work on DOTs for the boss. But at about 25% health, the spawn rate of the enemies goes up big time (on Hard at least), and worst of all, the boss starts casting some arena wide death aura type thing that hits us for over 90 hp each tick. Everyone wipes except me. I gather the stones and D-door out of there. But of course we can't use the shrines again because we chose "Hard"! We try again anyway, and see that he is fully healed back at 100% health. TERRIFIC. We get wiped aout t about the same point - boss near 25% health. Another expensive repair trip, and after another 90 minutes or so we got one treasure chest.

Now that's a lot of background there, and I appreciate your patience, while I make this point. We played this game (2 of us at least), for 6 hours, on quests that were equal to or below our levels, and we got practically nothing for doing so. This is because of the "All or nothing" nature of the quests in this game in order to get XP. You don't really get XP as you go along. If you get to a puzzle at the end that you can't break, you get nothing. If you can't beat the final boss, you get nothing for your efforts leading up to that point. It just felt pointless for us 3 new guys, and is frankly making us reconsider our investments in this game. If level 19 characters can't beat level 15-17 quests (with 3 cleric hirelings by the way), then it makes me wonder what we are doing wrong. Are these quests designed with TR characters in mind? Are they assuming uber gear for these final fights? Are they designed for a 6 player party? We are all wearing/wielding only the best stuff that we can afford from the auction house.

It just feels like I read of people soloing these quests on Heroic Elite (or even higher), and I'm left thinking that I'm just an absolutely terrible player.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking for here, other than venting a little. I guess I'm just hoping against hope that these are 3 uniquely challenging quests, and that most 15+ quests are not like this.

Thanks for listening, and especially for any pointers you can offer to us "newbies".

madmaxhunter
01-03-2013, 01:07 PM
You gave three wonderful examples why most players either skip those quests or drop their bravery bonus or add a player or hireling that would negate the bravery bonus. :)

Plenty of other quests to run, those are murder for the unprepared (and prepared for that matter, lol).

ETK - I've been in many TR vet groups that wipe in that quest - Park a hireling/dog at the barrier to get players access to the rez shrine.

Monestary of the Scorpion (Soami Gardens) - You will need to solve the puzzle in the room to kill the scorrow. Can be killed without the puzzle, but takes much longer. The buttons on the floor casts the dancing balls, whether you or the bad guys step on them.

In the Flesh - Really tough quest at level. Key is to have CC for the end fight. CC will take it from nearly impossible to a snooze fest (sorta).

LoveNeverFails
01-03-2013, 01:10 PM
From my experience these are three uniquely challanging quests. Enter the Kobold is one in particular that even my guildies who have been running for ages cringe when it comes time to farm that particular quest for XP. Monestary (the second one you guys did) is also a PITA at the boss fight. I've always run it with TRs who knew their stuff and can basically solo the endboss and do the puzzle while the rest of the party is standing around with a thumb up their bum killing the occasional scorpian that spawns.

Fear not, and don't be discouraged. Those quests out there are a particular pain in the butt to do. I can't think of another at that level that is as irritating, to be honest. Try Inspired Quarter, or Eveningstar if you have access to it for a change of pace.

With those other ones in Reavers, I'd reccommend trying to get a full group together and run through that way.

Missing_Minds
01-03-2013, 01:12 PM
It just feels like I read of people soloing these quests on Heroic Elite (or even higher), and I'm left thinking that I'm just an absolutely terrible player.

Accept you are forgetting one very important piece of perspective.

How do you think they did their first time in, cold? A little (meta) knowledge goes a LONG way.

I can do quests I do know a heck of a lot easier and with really screwy builds. Try doing that with something brand new and I'm probably going to take my wrist slaps like everyone else.

This is the majority of it. Secondaries of player skill/intuition and good machines make up the rest of the difference, but in this case not so much.

The first time I did the last quest of the dreaming dark series it took me 1-2 hours and we didn't find everything. The next time it took 2 hours because I was determined to figure out the use of the keys. We had only found one the first time in. Most of that time in the second run was spent figuring out the keys as we got the idea and what to expect of the boss with the first run in and were better prepared. And more and it doesn't take but between 30min to 60min depending on the group. That is how much knowledge of quests come into play.

jambajuicey
01-03-2013, 01:12 PM
The three quest you listed aren't exactly on the easy side, in fact I think you mentioned they are 'challenging' rated. There are some quests that are particularly hard for their level, (ex: Proof is in the Poison) If you come prepared and 'in the know' about what to expect, these can be trivial, thus the I've solo'd X quest you've read. Those solos are not in the typical feat by first time players (or even second) at all. The higher level quests do get more challenging, but you'll find those that are more easily done (I'm sure someone has compiled a list - I'm just not aware of it) Don't be discouraged too bad, its part of the learning experience.. there are a few threads in the general forum now about how people feel this game is too easy.. after a few TRs, you maybe in that same boat! It does suck to spend all that time and money with not much to show for it, but in reality, you have experienced it now and know what to expect a bit more. I know this post maybe too positive for some, but I enjoy the learning (after I get over the defeat!)

Hutoth
01-03-2013, 01:20 PM
What the other posters said - these are examples of difficult quests. Not being able to do them first time on normal with no advance knowledge of them is a good sign, not a bad one. It means that you'll get a huge feeling of accomplishment when you learn how to beat them.


We played this game (2 of us at least), for 6 hours, on quests that were equal to or below our levels, and we got practically nothing for doing so. This is because of the "All or nothing" nature of the quests in this game in order to get XP. You don't really get XP as you go along.


Also, you did gain a lot of valuable experience going in there - a) you learned that those quests are tough. b) you learned what is in those quests, what to expect etc. c) you got a glimpse of the vistas of power, cunning, and skill that lie before you as you progress from where you are now, to where those 1337s that can solo these at level on Elite are.

Chin up.

Nitesco
01-03-2013, 01:23 PM
Problem is, he is hitting us for over 90 damage each time, and I'm the only one there with over 300 hp.

This is where I stopped reading.

DarkForte
01-03-2013, 01:32 PM
If you're not appropriate for normal, do casual. If xp were given halfway through the quest, people wouldn't ever bother completing in the flesh/enter the kobold. Stop asking for more easy buttons, if you want an autocompletion do casual.

/thread.

squishwizzy
01-03-2013, 01:36 PM
Yeah, the Reaver's Refuge quests - and especially Enter the Kobold - are difficult. I have yet to be in any group that did the Enter the Kobold endfight with at least 1 death per player. You really need a a dedicated non-AI healer to pull it off on anything other than normal.

And yeah, at that point in the game, you should have 300 or more HP.

Chaimberland
01-03-2013, 01:44 PM
Whenever I run a quest I've never done before I read about it on wiki before I start, not at the end fight. Information is the best weapon anybody can have.

stefferweffer
01-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

Thanks again.

shadereaper33
01-03-2013, 01:54 PM
If you are going to go into a quest for the first time with no prior knowledge about the quest at all, you should not only prepare to have a few wipes, you should expect it. Those three quests you mentioned are some of the tougher quests in the 16-20 level range, especially for people who don't already know them. If you want to go into a quest with no idea what to do, that is your choice. But you need to understand that doing so will invariably lead to party wipes, which means no rewards.

Missing_Minds
01-03-2013, 01:56 PM
One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp?

Considering my lvl 16, 2nd lifer drow druid has about 350 if not more HP, yes. And I am wearing a gfl. (my drow is only a 30 pt build with -2 con, compared to your druid at 28 pts, and may or may not be elf. If nto elf, that druid really should have more.)

bigolbear
01-03-2013, 02:09 PM
dear op:

Im a multi TR, multi alt 5 year vet, on my last TR run with a balanced group enter the kobold beat us - we were playing on eilte.

In the same way we had to come back to it at a later lvl (came back at 22 and SMASHED IT), you may have to do the same - or be prepared to play on a lower setting, or both.

These 3 quests ARE challenging, they are labeled as such. There is nothing wrong with that. Play on a lower dificulty setting or come back to it when you are more experienced.

honkuimushi
01-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Back in 2007, a guildie told me "Turbine doesn't make hard quests, they make tricky quests." While things have changed over the years, this is still true for much of the game. What he meant is that most of the harder quests had a handful of tricks that, if you knew about ahead of time, made the quest a breeze. But if you went in blind, made the quest a nightmare.

One of the early examples is Missing in Action. If you know that the levers tun off the spike traps and where they are usually found, that approaching the crystal spawns enemies, and pulling the lever spawns a trog shaman-- then take things in order, it's an easy quest. But I've lost track of how many pugs I've been in where someone runs straight to a lever and pulls it-- spawning the zombies, the lever guardians, the shaman, leaving all the other enemies untouched while frying the rest of the party with the electricity traps they were trying to disable.

I don't know much about the Reaver's Reach quests. For several of the reasons you mentioned, they don't get pugged much and I'm not currently in a guild. I have done Prey on the Hunter a few times back when it was released, but that's about it.

On the other hand, I do know the Habringer of Madness series, having soloed it several times and done several Elite groups. That last fight(and the optional Doomsphere) are the only really challenging parts, but there's a trick to the last part. As was mentioned before, CC is very useful-- especially on elite with the beholders that strip your buffs and block casting. But there shouldn't be any beholders on hard. The real trick is the mindblast that got you. That wiped one of the parties I did it with. We tried it again and wiped at the same part. We had had no problems to that point, but that mindblast got us. But once I learned the trick, I haven't failed yet, even with weaker parties. The secret is that before he uses the mindblast, three pods appear in front of him. There should be some DM narration to that affect as well. If you break the pods, he can't use the mindblast. If he's already started, it ends it immediately. It also stuns him and gives you a chance to beat on him for a few seconds. That should allow you to finish this quest on Hard, maybe even Elite.

ArgentMage
01-03-2013, 02:13 PM
Whenever I run a quest I've never done before I read about it on wiki before I start

Being a die-hard soloist, I've always tried to run a quest the first time with no
up-front knowledge. This doesn't always result in a completion, but (for me, anyway),
it's more interesting, and for the most part I think this was how the developers
intended it.

That said, with experience has come the awareness that when the panel comes up
and says a quest is "challenging", I will go and read up on it to find out why.

As a side note, for the vast majority of quest chains, the difference between "Normal"
and "Hard" is pretty straightforward, but a couple of chains, like Harbinger/Madness
and Lordsmarch, the difficulty seems to go up more than usual on Hard and Elite.

So, if it's any comfort, I'd say that you just went down a rough road and got a
bit banged up for your troubles. Sounds like you have a decent group and will
get back in the groove once you get a couple of completions.

verad
01-03-2013, 02:17 PM
Ignore players telling you how many hp you need. Don't worry they will tell you what tshirt to wear when you wake up
and what computer to buy and what to have for lunch if they could....

If you had 400 hp the end result will still be the same....I had 700+ hp and run this
quest on elite and i'm usually the lucky one who ends up kiting the boss while one of the other players does the puzzle.
(kiting: running with boss's attention while party completes objective.) The disco balls are a pain and thats where a Paladin
kiter shines here but as the dificulty goes up so do the needed saves. The puzzle can get lucky sometimes and almost complete
it self....while other times the puzzle can be a pain in the ass and there is a good chance this quest is a fail. Done this quest 100+
times and trust me there are still fail's even after that many its a challenging one.

On that note though this quest can be a really great quest for xp to min and loot.
Its your first time and hopefully not your last, the next one may fail too but at least
you will know whats around that corner and how to best prepare.

I comend you on doing a quest with no one in party having experiance It was prolly
and adventure....one that some of us Veterans still miss and enjoy with new content.
As someone said this content has its own little unique challanges that sadly the previous content did not prepare you for.

V

Nitesco
01-03-2013, 02:30 PM
To be fair these quests are brutal, from a more sadistic past incarnation of DDO. I would skip them all, unless you really want DT armor for some reason.

DeKalbSun
01-03-2013, 02:34 PM
I feel you pain OP. Enter the Kobold is still giving me nightmares. I'm a knew player too and have been in more than
a few wipes, but it does feel good to come back into a dungeon and finally clear it. Theres a big learning curve in
this game, at least for me, but some players will help you out, and you will get better.

UnderwearModel
01-03-2013, 02:36 PM
What? Your first time through a quest and you think you should ace it? No way. It takes quite a few trips to go through a quest. After your 40th run through any quest it is ok, this is going to happen and now this, I gotta stand here, yada yada yada.

You have gained experience.

Everyone has wiped on ETK. Do not feel bad.

When that first came out it was a challenge to not die 20 times on the end battle. The strategy was, you parked someone up above to grab stones and run like heck to resurrect. Fun times, Heck, sometimes we won it with just about all of our gear broken. I am smiling just thinking of those first few "challenging" times.

You picked some challenging quests to run, that you were not familiar. You did fine. If the game was easy, most of us would quit. We have to have a challenge.

I say good for you for trying!!! The next time you beat it you will feel that bit of exhiliration from victory.

katz
01-03-2013, 02:41 PM
Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

Thanks again.

you could have more HP by getting a toughness item (Minos Legens, Thaarak bracelet, or a 'tough' item (usually cloak) and a greater or superior false life item, these two items would add another 30-40 HP on top of your current total. in addition, once you start running Shroud you can make a greensteel item that would, when finished, add an additional 45 on top of that.


as for the druids, they get additional class toughness enhancements in addition to the racial toughness, so they *should* be capable of a higher HP. a druid with equivalent equipment to what you mentioned should easily have more HP than you, even with your extras from Pale Master. no rudeness intended at all, but it's a bad sign if a cleric hire has more HP than you at level. they've been improved recently, but they are still notoriously poor in the "staying alive" department. (my 13th level rogue/monk has 340HP at 13th, but he's 3rd life with the twink gear to show for it) there was no call for someone to be rude to you about it, tho.


as for the quests you mentioned...as others have said, those three are notoriously some of the hardest and most avoided quests in the game unless you have a REALLY well prepared group. DO NOT feel bad to have failed them. seriously. those quests are brutal.

Gunga
01-03-2013, 02:42 PM
Everyone has wiped.

I've never wiped.

UnderwearModel
01-03-2013, 02:44 PM
I've never wiped.

The Exception. Gunga does not wipe.

Nitesco
01-03-2013, 02:49 PM
Make sure you wipe from front to back and you will be fine.

Kushiel
01-03-2013, 02:56 PM
...points out a problem various types of players encounter in the game.

The time spent to get naught but a repair bill, for some players, is not *Fun* where one is looking to "play" a *game.* It happens at different level ranges, for different builds, for different players (who guild, don't guild or PUG or solo, or who happen to play on a Tuesday).

At the lower levels it is, from my perspective, mitigated by a broader range and more plentiful spread of quests. Quests at that level have thinned out dramatically... and just about everyone of them that does exist has mechanics or foes that, for some portion of the playerbase, strip the fun right out of playing.

Some of you are god-like players who've collected all the goodies and revel in much that is difficult. The world would be better served by increasing more peoples ability to have fun and find meaningful advancement to their characters.

The OP's description and perspective is valid. It's good to have those viewpoints examined not shutdown by the "Just Run Casual If You Are Not Good Enough" crowd. [A "Crowd" I suspect is honestly fairly thin of numbers.]

jambajuicey
01-03-2013, 02:59 PM
I've never wiped.

/insert a feeling of sorrow for some underwear! =)

unbongwah
01-03-2013, 03:08 PM
So to review:


You wiped on some of the most challenging quests in DDO, just like most of us have. Congrats, this does not mean you're a bad player. :)
It sounds like you chose to run these quests "cold," i.e., without researching them first. That's fine if you like to learn things on your own and I laud you for doing so. But you shouldn't do that then complain about how the boss fight kicked your butts because you didn't know what to do. As honkuimushi points out, many fights have some "trick" to beating them - whether it's having the right buffs or solving a puzzle or just knowing what order to kill things in. Forewarned is forearmed. ;)
One suggestion for fights with continuous respawns like the final Harbinger quest: use your CC abilities rather than DPS to neutralize threats, because killing them will just trigger more respawns.
Don't forget dungeon difficulty scales based on number of hirelings too, though not as much as PCs; but enough that they may be causing you more trouble than they're worth, esp. on the harder quests.
I like DDO's emphasis on quest completion for XP (vs., say, grinding for kills in most other MMOs), but it does mean there are times when you'll find the only things you have to show for a evening's gaming session is a massive repair bill & high blood pressure. :mad: Try to treat it as a learning experience. [I disagree with those who think DDO has gotten too easy; rather I think you need to learn to be creative to customize questing difficulty to suit your skill level & preferences.]

Zenako
01-03-2013, 03:39 PM
Hmmm, back when ETK was new, there was a reason many players had entire sets of back up gear to use. Deaths in the end fight could be brutal. HOWEVER, once groups learned certain tactics or "tricks" or spells to use, the success rate soared in there. A real good evasion build was often key to an "easy" win.

Monastery the same thing. The only REAL tough fight (if you take it slow and take out the traps along the way) is the final one, and that one can be handled nicely with just some simple coordination (once you learn about that), where one person solves the puzzle and the other acts as the bait and keeps the Boss's attention on them.

Keep in mind, groups used to tackle theses quests at level (or below) on high settings and beat them by using not only character builds and gear, but mostly gameplay knowledge. There is nothing intrinsic about your characters or builds that make that impossible. Your Wiz/Rogue can be the bait in both and hopefully evade with great success. (I hope you found a way to fit in Insightful Reflexs to your Feat mix to get high level REF saves on your build. That makes the Evasion viable.)

stefferweffer
01-03-2013, 03:41 PM
Sadly, I confess that it never occured to me to try CC on that Madness quest. There was some other quest we recently did where everything in the quest was "insane" to the point that CC would not work, and something made me think it would be that way here. I really thought that these mutant Taken and Reaver things were immune to mind control stuff. My bad :( Next time I will definitely do that.

One other clarification - do note that the final quest for "Madness" does NOT say "Challenging". It says Normal Difficulty, which is very misleading. If it had said "Challenging" we would have done Normal, ESPECIALLY after what we had experienced earlier on a level 17 "Challenging" one. I had pointed out about a month ago that the DEVs may want to look again at which quests have the "Challenging" labels and which do not. My suspicion is that the final quest of any "Chain" would almost always be "Challenging", and yet this is an example where the game does not say so.

Thanks again for all the great advice and support.

Gunga
01-03-2013, 03:51 PM
The Exception. Gunga does not wipe.

The dazzle is in the setup.

Stormraiser
01-03-2013, 03:52 PM
The Exception. Gunga does not wipe.

And no one shakes his hand...

Missing_Minds
01-03-2013, 04:09 PM
The dazzle is in the setup.

all that glitters is not gold, no matter how much you may polish it.

Wipey
01-03-2013, 04:52 PM
And no one shakes his hand...
Why not if he doesn't ...

oldkraft2
01-03-2013, 05:09 PM
players are vastly different ofc, but quests on normal are for 4-6 players on level.

but ok, reavers refuge stems from a time when devs were still trying to 'battle' the powergamer segment, (the microtransacting people were not there yet ..) and are designed so that we might rather say : these quests on normal are for '4-6 powergamers'

Postumus
01-03-2013, 05:19 PM
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, just not these particular quests right now! Here I feared we were over-leveled (and indeed we may have been), and we still got wiped out.

Tuesday night - I take my 17/2 Pale Trapper (first life human) to Reaver's Refuge with my friend's first life Half Elf 17 Druid. We go to Mt. Reysalon, fight through the gnolls, and attempt the "Enter the Kobold" quest. Says Level 17, "Challenging". We both have Cleric hirelings (even though I usually don't need one). We enter on Normal, having read nothing about the quest before. We fight our way through and get to the floor puzzle room, with glowing lights of various colors everywhere. I HATE puzzles, and so does my friend. Unbelievably, we wander around randomly enough to where we actually get through it. So we head to the final battle (about 2 hours into the quest at this point). I read up on wiki and it says to be prepared with fire resists, displacement, blur, etc. We all go in with Stoneskin, Blur (Displacement for me), gobs of energy resists, and greater heroism. We kill the kobold guy, and then get promptly wiped out by the Efreeti and at least 4 frenzied fire elementals. So after 2 hours, we have practically nothing, and an expensive (for us at least) repair session.

Last night, we decide to try the Saomi Gardens quest instead.

Then my friends want to do the 3rd and final "Madness" quest, but on "Hard" (the one with a giant mindflayer at the end).


Like others have said, you picked three of the toughest quests to do even with prior experience. Your result is probably what most other players faced the first time they ran those quests. I know I got a wake up call running ETK and monastery for the first time. Your second time through will probably take half the time. Third time you'll probably be down to around 30 mins.


Wait until you get to Sorjek in the Stealer of Souls quest. :)

Zenako
01-03-2013, 05:31 PM
Wait until you get to Sorjek in the Stealer of Souls quest. :)

Now that one can be a royal pain in the &^%%^:eek::eek: Thankfully it is not required to get normal quest completion and stuff only an optional for extra stuff (good stuff, but none the less extra). Had about a 25% success rate on that one (about 2 out of 8 times I ran it roughly) back then with levels and gear from that time. Its been years since I've back to that end bonus fight.:)

sirgog
01-03-2013, 06:29 PM
If you are going to go into a quest for the first time with no prior knowledge about the quest at all, you should not only prepare to have a few wipes, you should expect it. Those three quests you mentioned are some of the tougher quests in the 16-20 level range, especially for people who don't already know them. If you want to go into a quest with no idea what to do, that is your choice. But you need to understand that doing so will invariably lead to party wipes, which means no rewards.

This.

I'm always disappointed when my first ever attempt at a quest is successful.

7-day_Trial_Monkey
01-03-2013, 06:36 PM
If you're not appropriate for normal, do casual. If xp were given halfway through the quest, people wouldn't ever bother completing in the flesh/enter the kobold. Stop asking for more easy buttons, if you want an autocompletion do casual.

/thread.

The OP never did ask for an easy button. Why are you posting lies like that?

He asked for advice.

sirgog
01-03-2013, 06:39 PM
players are vastly different ofc, but quests on normal are for 4-6 players on level.

but ok, reavers refuge stems from a time when devs were still trying to 'battle' the powergamer segment, (the microtransacting people were not there yet ..) and are designed so that we might rather say : these quests on normal are for '4-6 powergamers'

Refuge came from a time when players were much less powerful than now BUT worked together much more.

Everyone was a first lifer. Non-Dwarves could not take Toughness enhancements. There was no Wail or Implosion or Mass Heal easy button, and classes other than Rangers mostly did not have PrE's.

In particular player saving throws were much, much lower than now.

What has changed is that now players that fail a quest assume 'we were undergeared' and try to throw more gear at the problem rather than recognising that their tactics were either inappropriate to the quest or just stupid.


The first releases of Enter the Kobold and Prey on the Hunter were far too difficult on Normal - Prey had to be nerfed via hotfix as on Normal, unless you had luck on the maze - i.e. it was one of the shorter paths and everyone got there fast - Aussircaex was dead or at 10-20% by the time you got to her. Ironically Elite was not very difficult but I never had a successful completion of the original Normal.

The key to ETK is treating the Fire Elementals as a trap, not monsters. You should almost never try to kill them.


For what it's worth, once you get past the higher difficulty levels, you hit 20 and suddenly everything becomes a lot easier. Epic Normal is easier in general at-level than Heroic Casual is and Epic Hard is generally (not quite always) easier than Heroic Hard.

PNellesen
01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
I'm always disappointed when my first ever attempt at a quest is successful.

I dunno - If I somehow manage to barely survive, killing the boss with 2 or 3 HP and 0 SP left, after a long and difficult fight, needing to use everything I have to figure out what the best strategy/spell/gear to use is, I personally feel pretty happy about it. Especially on a brand-new quest that I haven't researched because I like to be surprised... ;)

FranOhmsford
01-03-2013, 07:02 PM
Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

Thanks again.

Your HP may see you get declined from some Shroud Groups BUT for a 1st life Wiz/Rogue they're certainly way above average.

Druids tend to do well for HP however and should have 300+ at Lvl 16/17 - You might want to talk to your friends and find out what they're missing.

P.S. You're running Reaver's Refuge - Have you run Gianthold? 150 Argo Favour gets you an extra 10hp.

As for the Hirelings - At Lvl 19 the only reason to use a Lvl 17 hire is for DV {unfortunately that's the last Hire with it}.
Get your friends to bring the Lvl 16 and 17 hires with DV {They can DV you then} and you get Klin {Lvl 19}.


Ignore players telling you how many hp you need. Don't worry they will tell you what tshirt to wear when you wake up
and what computer to buy and what to have for lunch if they could....

If you had 400 hp the end result will still be the same....I had 700+ hp and run this
quest on elite and i'm usually the lucky one who ends up kiting the boss while one of the other players does the puzzle.
(kiting: running with boss's attention while party completes objective.) The disco balls are a pain and thats where a Paladin
kiter shines here but as the dificulty goes up so do the needed saves. The puzzle can get lucky sometimes and almost complete
it self....while other times the puzzle can be a pain in the ass and there is a good chance this quest is a fail. Done this quest 100+
times and trust me there are still fail's even after that many its a challenging one.


V

Last time I ran Monastery - We Wiped - We then got extremely lucky and the Puzzle completed itself while we were all Soulstones!

EllisDee37
01-03-2013, 11:32 PM
I guess I'm just hoping against hope that these are 3 uniquely challenging questsThey are indeed. For first time running it going in blind, nigh impossible.

Knowing all three quests well and how hard they all are for the inexperienced, I found your OP quite funny. No offense is intended.


...Reaver's Refuge...Already I'm thinking "this will be good."


attempt the "Enter the Kobold" quest. Says Level 17, "Challenging". We both have Cleric hirelingsHa! I'm silently chuckling to myself: those poor bastards.


Last night, we decide to try the Saomi Gardens quest instead.Oh lord, even worse! The ETK end fight will be a fond memory compared to this end fight.


We are about to check wiki, when this giant Scorrow boss comes running down the hallway toward usHa! I'm now silently laughing to myself, well beyond a chuckle. Too funny.


Then my friends want to do the 3rd and final "Madness" quest, but on "Hard" (the one with a giant mindflayer at the end).Reading this sentence I actually, no fooling, laughed out loud.

Great story, man. Yeah, you walked into 3 different buzzsaws, each one progressively harder than the last.

Thrudh
01-04-2013, 12:06 AM
Whenever I run a quest I've never done before I read about it on wiki before I start, not at the end fight. Information is the best weapon anybody can have.

I never read up on a quest beforehand... One of the great joys of adventuring is the rare times when you're doing a quest for the first time, and you have no idea what's around the next corner!

But I usually solo them on normal the first time... because I want to finish as well.

OP... the three quests you list are some of the most challenging quests in the game for a first timer. I've wiped in all three of those quests before...

Note, you CAN release and come back in (within 5 minutes) and try the boss fight again. You can leave one person inside to hold the instance too... The adventure doesn't reset until everyone has been out for 5 minutes.

The first time I did STK with my friends, we wiped 4-5 times before we beat that giant construct... but we kept releasing and coming back in, because we were determined to kill that sucker.

9Crows
01-04-2013, 12:19 AM
op your experience in those 3 quest was the exact same as mine me and 2 friends with hires went in there with no knowledge of the quests all bold and cocky ..and got slaughtered many times, untill i decided that reading about them might be a good thing ...etk is still hard for some of my toons .cloak of ice(cold shield spell for umds or arcanes) the 33% fire absorb boots from sands (or cannith crafted shard )and now firebreak or cannith cloak helps alot in there

ZeebaNeighba
01-04-2013, 12:47 AM
I will give you a fair warning now. The quest New Invasion, a level 19 in Shavarath, is another horribly backloaded quest like this, and it has a complicated maze to get to it so you can easily burn an hour simply getting to the end fight.

PNellesen
01-04-2013, 12:53 AM
The first time I did STK with my friends, we wiped 4-5 times before we beat that giant construct... but we kept releasing and coming back in, because we were determined to kill that sucker.

Oh man, I still remember the very first time I did the last STK quest. Was soloing at-level on Normal with my first life 28pt max-Dex Elf Ranger with 12 CON and no gear at all (my 2nd character) with one of the cleric hirelings. I'm not sure how long it took me to get to the end but it had been a while, but no deaths that I recall (though I could be blocking those memories ;) ). I dropped down, parked the hireling, did what little buffing I could, and slowly inched forward. I think I jumped 3 feet in the air when the boss appeared. One thing I remember clearly was that the hireling killed him with what appeared to be Searing light - I was SOOO glad I had him along, because my feeble attempts at pew-pew and melee weren't doing much if any damage to him lol. Imagine my joy when the Ring of Feathers appeared in the chest - my very first Feather Fall item of any kind :)

ETK and Monastery can be tough even when you've run them a few times. If it weren't for the great XP, I wouldn't run them at all (but boy, that XP is hard to pass up when you're trying to make that last push to 20...)

Niv-mizzet
01-04-2013, 02:10 AM
It just feels like I read of people soloing these quests on Heroic Elite (or even higher), and I'm left thinking that I'm just an absolutely terrible player.


inexperienced != terrible
Even multi-TR-elite-streaking-completionists-from-hell die to silly things when they do a quest they don't know.
As the joes say, knowing is half the battle.

it sounds like your group could benefit from browsing some build advice threads, for one.

For the ETK end fight, On normal difficulty, most pc's should have the sturdiness to be able to stand in that room for at least a little while, long enough to catch relaxed heals at least. Well built toons can even solo that fight without much sweat. You might try having a point-man with improved evasion (or just normal evasion) running in first and love-tapping many of the enemies, then staying away from the other party members.

For the monastery boss, kite him around and abuse the ramps in his room to do so. He won't jump right off after you. Oh no, he'll politely find the path down to get to you while you head up the other side. Have someone in the middle mess with the puzzle, and voila.

I have typed up a full report of how to handle Yaulthoon at the end of In the Flesh before, so I'll just sum-up this time. What you got killed by was an unavoidable psionic attack that he only uses at low health. Note that it is unavoidable (it even hits you through the landscape) but NOT unstoppable. Once you have him down to the last 25% or so, WATCH HIM LIKE A HAWK when he teleports. He will appear with 3 of those "taken cocoons" on the ground in front of him. You now have 10-15 seconds to break them, or the psionic attack will go off. On the plus side, if you DO break them in time, you will stun Yaulthoon AND remove his invincibility, assuming he had it on.

Also note, charming is shockingly effective in the fight against Yaulthoon, ESPECIALLY on elite, where you can have pink-hatted beholders helping you deal with the swarms of enemies.

Loromir
01-04-2013, 07:58 AM
Sadly, I confess that it never occured to me to try CC on that Madness quest. There was some other quest we recently did where everything in the quest was "insane" to the point that CC would not work, and something made me think it would be that way here. I really thought that these mutant Taken and Reaver things were immune to mind control stuff. My bad :( Next time I will definitely do that.

One other clarification - do note that the final quest for "Madness" does NOT say "Challenging". It says Normal Difficulty, which is very misleading. If it had said "Challenging" we would have done Normal, ESPECIALLY after what we had experienced earlier on a level 17 "Challenging" one. I had pointed out about a month ago that the DEVs may want to look again at which quests have the "Challenging" labels and which do not. My suspicion is that the final quest of any "Chain" would almost always be "Challenging", and yet this is an example where the game does not say so.

Thanks again for all the great advice and support.

This quest seems to get significantly more difficult on Hard. A bigger difference than other quests IMO. Go back and run it again on Normal and get the chain's end reward. There is some nice gear to be had from that chain. It sounds like you just need to improve your gear and you can only do that by running and completing these higher level quests.

You HP as a wizard is not horrible...so don't let people grief you about that. Could it be higher? Sure....but your on the right track.

After you complete the madness chain, you might want to go back and run the full chain again and get a second end reward. Improving your gear will do nothing but help make you stronger.

fco-karatekid
01-04-2013, 08:42 AM
Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

Thanks again.

Although HP alone were not the only reason, they were a contributing factor. Go back to Sane Asylum if you own it and grab a sustaining symbiont - GFL + exceptional constitution both help.

Now as far as the OP is concerned - you just happened to pick three of the hardest quests to do when new - you did what everyone walking cold into these has done.

fco-karatekid
01-04-2013, 09:00 AM
/insert a feeling of sorrow for some underwear! =)

you assume a lot.

honkuimushi
01-04-2013, 09:05 AM
Oh man, I still remember the very first time I did the last STK quest. Was soloing at-level on Normal with my first life 28pt max-Dex Elf Ranger with 12 CON and no gear at all (my 2nd character) with one of the cleric hirelings. I'm not sure how long it took me to get to the end but it had been a while, but no deaths that I recall (though I could be blocking those memories ;) ). I dropped down, parked the hireling, did what little buffing I could, and slowly inched forward. I think I jumped 3 feet in the air when the boss appeared. One thing I remember clearly was that the hireling killed him with what appeared to be Searing light - I was SOOO glad I had him along, because my feeble attempts at pew-pew and melee weren't doing much if any damage to him lol. Imagine my joy when the Ring of Feathers appeared in the chest - my very first Feather Fall item of any kind :)



You should have tried it back before F2P, and especially when the game was new. The guardian looked just like a fire giant, so you didn't know he was a construct unless you examined him. Still, most people didn't have an adamantine weapon at those levels. The DR was much higher and he a had a lot more hp than now. It wasn't unusual for at level groups to wipe even on normal, and it was almost expected on higher difficulties if you didn't have a few casters. The standard strategy was to form a half circle in a corner and shieldblock. Your casters would be in the middle and magic missile him to death. But if people got knocked out of place, there was a good chance for a wipe. There also used to be water in that room, and if he got pulled into the water, he would leash and respawn at full hit points. I don't know how many times I was in a party that had to release and reenter to finish. And in most parties, you had to wait for the people who died in that fight to release and then reenter to get their chest, because there was no way to get to a shrine form that last room.

squishwizzy
01-04-2013, 10:36 AM
Just to clarify, I'm the level 19 one, 17 wiz/2 rog. I have an Improved False Life item, toughness, 2 toughness enhancements, and Palemaster 2. I started with 18 CON and 18 INT (32 point build) and have a Health + 6 item. I have 342 hp. I really don't know any way to get more hp right now other than a Greater False Life item. I will get more with Palemaster III at 20 also.

One Druid is 17, and the other is 16. I have no idea how many hps druids get per level. Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? I did notice that all our Cleric hirelings had more than 300 hp (levels 16-17 hirelings).

Thanks again.

I think the HP comments were not directed to you, but the people in the group who did not have 300 HP or better when you ran the quests.

Yeah, people can tell you "you don't need a lot of HP to be good," but the reality is that unless you are an advanced player (which you're not as you are posting in the New Players forum), having a healthy HP reserve is a good indicator of success as it covers up a lot of flaws in the playstyle. My rogue at lvl 21 has about 360-some HP. Because of evasion and a few other factors he is able to stay in the fight just as long (or sometomes longer) then guys with nearly double that amount of HP.

Not that I'm a encylopedic expert on rogues, but how I play him also helps.

squishwizzy
01-04-2013, 10:38 AM
I will give you a fair warning now. The quest New Invasion, a level 19 in Shavarath, is another horribly backloaded quest like this, and it has a complicated maze to get to it so you can easily burn an hour simply getting to the end fight.

+1.

Make sure you get someone in the group who can kite well with blade barriers. It helps...a lot...

Therigar
01-04-2013, 11:00 AM
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, just not these particular quests right now! Here I feared we were over-leveled (and indeed we may have been), and we still got wiped out.

The first quest you tried is especially difficult. An important thing to know about the end fight also applies to various other quests in the game -- some encounters cannot be won by brute force. For your group mix it is particularly hard because you are healing dependent and hirelings don't know enough to move away from danger. It can be beaten by the two of you but not with the tactics you imply were used.

The second quest can be won very easily if you apply the same principle mentioned above -- some encounters cannot be won by brute force. Like Whisperdoom in the Tangleroot chain, the end boss cannot, AFAIK, be killed by the players. This should be clear when he hits hard but takes virtually no damage from your characters. There must be some other way to dispatch of him. I'm sure by now you've puzzled that out.

The third quest is just a situation of your friend overestimating your group's abilities.

One thing of note is that your experience shows why hirelings are a poor substitute for real people. Hirelings do not think and cannot make decisions for themselves. They end up being liabilities at the precise time when they are needed most.

All players would be better off if they learned how to survive without hirelings.

phillymiket
01-04-2013, 11:01 AM
You picked three good ones! :D

Knowledge = power in this game.

You went into three tough fights with zero knowledge.

What did you expect?

Most quests can be solved without any knowledge but many require you to either have someone who knows the quest or put in some death and effort to learn how the quest goes.

Each of those quests has a "common" team strategy people use.

Each also can be improvised with the right characters.

But each will hand you your bottom if you wander in unawares with a character that doesn't mesh well with the particular encounters. (and even then)

Would you rather have everything be able to be solved first time out?

You just happened to pick three doozies in a row.

Your greatest wipes may end up being your best stories and your fondest memories later when you are a rich, knowledgeable and all-powerful dungeoneer.

"Remember that time we wiped in Kobold so we decided to to do something 'easier' like Monestary and wiped again so decided to face Yaulthoon instead and wiped a third time? That was awesome!"

Now get back up on your horsey and get back at 'em!
.

danotmano1998
01-04-2013, 11:50 AM
Would you rather have everything be able to be solved first time out?

You just happened to pick three doozies in a row.

Your greatest wipes may end up being your best stories and your fondest memories later when you are a rich, knowledgeable and all-powerful dungeoneer.

"Remember that time we wiped in Kobold so we decided to to do something 'easier' like Monestary and wiped again so decided to face Yaulthoon instead and wiped a third time? That was awesome!"

Now get back up on your horsey and get back at 'em!
.

Well said!
+1

My personal best memories were times when I thought for sure we were all doomed and ended up scraping by just barely completing on a wing and a prayer.

Zenako
01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
You know, a part of me is almost thinking the OP is a plant who made that post to get a bunch of old timers back to running some of those same quests again, just to see if they really are that much of a pain....:D

You could toss Dreams of Insanity into that mix as well. (the Beholder laden quest next to Tempest Spine that was only run on RARE occasions by masochists back in the day. It is pretty easy now for even slightly over level toons.)

tekkentroop
01-04-2013, 02:24 PM
As somebody above said, New Invasion is tough unprepared, but I think there are some other quests who are as tough at level if unprepared... The Pit, The Crucible... only in these the end fights arent the main problem. The first major wipe I experienced (wiping after spending a long time running through the quest) was in Stormcleave Outpost in the end fight a long time ago, with my first char above lvl 3... must have been almost 2 years ago.

psykopeta
01-04-2013, 02:40 PM
there's no hard quest in ddo (at least haven't found lol) only tricky ones

monastery of scorpion: there's a safe point where boss can't reach, like in lord of dust, the boss will be trying to hit you cause you aren't "far enough" to find another way, but you aren't close enough for him to hit you, 1 guy opens the solver or solves the puzzle, the rest kill mobs

etk: all evade players (cause you will need more than 1 lol) near the chest beating 1st boss, and then the 2nd boss, rest of players near the path that leads back to the shrine, healing, cc, ooze puppet, support team
and finally, the guy who saves the party: 1 guy at the lever to pull it for the 234234 you will die

in the flesh: mobs spawn in the same point, there are 2 for beholders, place 1 guy at each point(melee) with deathblock item lol, that player only has to kill the nearest beho(and has to pay attention to the closest coccoon to hide behind if the mob attacks him/her), 1 player for healing raising(always behind a coccon XD) the other 3 will kill first trash, and beat boss when they can: boss will send you projectiles, if they land in a coccon and you are CLOSE (not in straight line lol) you will recover hp and sp, if you are behind or in front you will probably die

avoid these 3 quests, no matter how, only go with experienced players cause you will need knowledge about the quest, not simply heal, disable trap, smash smash smash

there are more tricky quests, simply you found the ugly ones XDDDD

PS: you did prey on the hunter? it can be called tricky quest too

Chaos000
01-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Enter the kobold is a rough end fight unfortunately its a damage mitigation + dps check. 33% fire absorption can be crafted a umd scroll of fire shield will help.

I've done this without a single player with evasion but the party was full of seasoned vets that were more than overgeared for the content.

Caster with heighten and control oozes will help for the living spells. One imp evasion player with enough hp can also grab the aggro of all fire elementals and shield block across the lava and kept up by a dedicated healer alternating fire prot and heal scrolls while the other dps beat down the named while self healing

BOgre
01-04-2013, 05:00 PM
OP: Unfortunately, the more snarky sounding replies here are the ones that make the best point. That being, DDO is not your usual MMO. You just can't go in to any quest and expect to bash and smash your way through to the end. You don't get half marks for 'almost' completing. You don't get rewarded for failing.

The quests you've listed are difficult, but they're also very doable. Consider how many people and groups failed to complete these when they first came out. Consider how many runs it may have taken to figure out a strategy that worked, or almost worked and had to be tweaked. Run after run after group after group...

So you basically have three choices from here. You can regroup with the same friends and keep trying to figure it out and beat it, discovering the traps and tricks that will make or break your run. OR, you can study the wiki, and run the quests based on what the veterans have learned over the years. OR, you can get a vet to guide you through it, step by step, teaching you the quest as you go.

Also, you'll need to realize that quests in DDO are NOT auto-complete. It IS possible to die, fail, wipe. The risk of this happening increases with the difficulty you choose. You need to accept that risk before you step in, so that when you DO fail (and you will still fail more quests) you can shake it off, learn from the wipe, and go back in better prepared. You just can't seriously consider quitting DDO because you failed some hard quests. Cowboy up.

Chaos000
01-04-2013, 05:42 PM
Some quests in game are designed to appeal to the "repeated failed quests is good for the soul" crowd who find enjoyment in quests with a higher probability of failure.

I'm more of a fan of guaranteed completion which requires a couple members with specialized skillsets and gear to "stack the deck" so to speak. I guarantee a sorc spec'd for ice damage could charm the living spells lay down a bunch of ice storm + dancing ball + infinite mana and walk in soloing the fight

sirgog
01-04-2013, 08:46 PM
I will give you a fair warning now. The quest New Invasion, a level 19 in Shavarath, is another horribly backloaded quest like this, and it has a complicated maze to get to it so you can easily burn an hour simply getting to the end fight.

This is the case in a full group due to the end fight having a form of triple scaling.

Each extra person causes more traps to go off. Each extra person causes the traps to hit harder. And the boss has higher stats, meaning more time to screw up the traps.

If you do wipe on the final fight, however, you will be able to immediately attempt it again (you will be teleported to a resurrection shrine nearby but the boss will be restored to 100% hp). A small group that has voice communication will not find the fight hard, but you will have deaths figuring out what is going on. Allow 80-90 minutes for the quest at first and bring curse potions.

Since understanding that fight, I have died a LOT more times in the 'other' dangerous room of that quest, the one everyone forgets - the entrance to the second level of the maze, where you will be jumped by a Clay Golem that healing curses you while a Barbazu, a Fire Elemental and an Iron Golem DPS you down and an Air Elemental plays pinball with you in a confined space.

ZeebaNeighba
01-05-2013, 12:08 AM
If you do wipe on the final fight, however, you will be able to immediately attempt it again (you will be teleported to a resurrection shrine nearby but the boss will be restored to 100% hp)I thought this wasn't there on elite, and on elite there also wasn't the portal to teleport from the beginning to end fight if you decide to release/reenter.

wayreth602
01-07-2013, 10:47 PM
<snip>

+1 on what you said. My wife has the giggles now.

danzig138
01-08-2013, 11:49 AM
/thread.

Ha! Not even close.

Are you saying that at those levels, as first lifers, they should also have more than 300 hp? Probably yeah.

Singular
01-12-2013, 02:05 AM
We go to Mt. Reysalon
Last night, we decide to try the Saomi Gardens quest instead.

Then my friends want to do the 3rd and final "Madness" quest, but on "Hard" (the one with a giant mindflayer at the end).
Thanks for listening, and especially for any pointers you can offer to us "newbies".

Thanks for the story! That was great.

My first time through each of those, I lucked out to go with a multi-tr group that knew what they were doing. I died in the Mt. Reysalon one (I pretty much die there every time regardless of awesome group :) b/c I never bring extra fire protection - duuuuh! ). Did ok in the second, died in Madness, but we made it. Damn that end fight is hard!

This past lie - now a 4th life - I went to Madness for some payback, solo, on hard. Basically the same experience as you - made it to the 25% mark and died. Went back in, died. I have more hp than you, mostly from items, but couldn't do it.

You know what? Payback is totally worth it. I'm going to go back in there and kick that mindflayer's arse! grrrrrrrr!

DrunkenBuddha
01-14-2013, 09:19 AM
What everyone else said.

Now you need to an Elite Weapons Shipment with a full party! It's awesome.

squishwizzy
01-14-2013, 09:34 AM
What everyone else said.

Now you need to an Elite Weapons Shipment with a full party! It's awesome.

+1

For a majority of the quest you'll see nothing but smoke and the bright flashing lights of CC going off, so much so that you'll probably never even notice the lag.

And you probably won't even notice you've died until the rez prompt shows up.

bibimbap
01-14-2013, 06:09 PM
What everyone else said.

Now you need to an Elite Weapons Shipment with a full party! It's awesome.

You need to do this in dreadnaught it is CRAZY FUN! (no sarcasm)

and Dear OP: First time I did ETK and Monstary I had to do casual!

Btw what are your saves like? Have you got access to some crafting? +6 Resistance from superior stability would help greatly, +1 / 2 Luck, Greater Parrying, You can put +10 reflex on a robe from the madness chain also. Also what server are you on? Maybe I can help out when I get there.

Do you friends also have these..? http://ddowiki.com/page/Cloak_of_Ice I think druids get fireshield but you should all be wearing it.

Charononus
01-14-2013, 06:52 PM
OP Here are a few suggestions I didn't see made in the thread till now.

ETK
With the light puzzle you move like a knight piece on a chess board, you need to light all the tiles and you solve it. For the end fight on your wizard I recommend ooze puppeting the living spells. (They're classified as oozes even though you might not guess that at first) Then hit the mephits with mass suggestion. For the fire ele's toss an unmeta'd ice storm or two and kite the fire ele's while you're friend beat down the efreeti. As some have mentioned hirelings will not cut it for this fight though.

Madness
CC Helps, make sure to kill any mini beholders asap (not sure those might be elite only). As far as his whole room aoe that can be prevented by smashing 3 pod that appear next to him right before he does it. You have 10-15 secs to smash them approx. When they get smashed he actually gets stunned in addition to becoming vulnerable.

I hope this helps.

AbyssalMage
01-14-2013, 09:46 PM
The secret is that before he uses the mindblast, three pods appear in front of him. There should be some DM narration to that affect as well. If you break the pods, he can't use the mindblast. If he's already started, it ends it immediately. It also stuns him and gives you a chance to beat on him for a few seconds. That should allow you to finish this quest on Hard, maybe even Elite.
This is the only thing that has allowed me to solo this one. The Mindblast is deadly!!! Not sure about the DM narration, or at least didn't see/hear it while I was running around trying to stay alive/kill those dang things. But for Enter the Flesh (Or what ever it is called), you need to destroy those things ASAP.

Jay203
01-15-2013, 03:56 AM
there's always that option of putting up lfm for tutors :)

DDOisFree
01-15-2013, 09:45 PM
Just a wild guess here based on assumption - Fireshield is a useless spell and therefore the wizard wasn't carrying it in ETK. Same with Ooze puppet.

And this thread is proof that you do need HP in DDO for content like this. I just completed all three of the quests on elite the last couple of days and only ETK was hard because neither wizard in my group used fireshield, and no one was casting resist fire after being ressed from dying.

'Red bar up' healing alone doesn't save your group, you need damage protection as well, and resists and fireshields are must have spells for any arcane caster in content like ETK, along with sufficient HP to survive in between heals.

brian14
01-17-2013, 09:47 AM
Whenever I run a quest I've never done before I read about it on wiki before I start, not at the end fight. Information is the best weapon anybody can have.
Sometimes wiki fails to give crucial information, perhaps because whoever wrote it did not think it is crucial. Last night I completed The Tide Turns for the first time (tried it once before, but gave up in the steam pipe room), and it was a horrible experience. Which would have been made MUCH better if I realized that I can step out of the end boss room at any time for a breather. It LOOKED like a "point of no return" end room ("Enter the Kobold" is one of those), but actually is not.

Regarding OP: he managed to pick three of the toughest for their level quests in the game. Phrase "Extreme Challenge" means well, exteme challenge! Monastery of the Scorpion is the quest I utterly hate -- not even so much because of end fight, but because of air jets. Last time I ran it, I never made it into boss room. The party killed Sannyasi, solved the puzzle, I got completion and xp, but gave up in frustration and exited without end chest.

Enter the Kobold just has a grossly out of balance end fight. You need heaps and heaps of fire protection. I successfully soloed it once -- on Normal, with a level 21 Fatesinger bard (had a divine hireling, but he kept dying), and it was a very close call, with lots of memory potions consumed.

In the Flesh... I do not think it is all that bad on Normal and Hard, as long as you have CC. On Elite it becomes a nightmare because CC no longer works.

Karavek
01-17-2013, 10:43 AM
The OP actually underlines alot of the negative aspects of DDOs so called and fanboi lauded unique nautre.

MMO which survive and thrive only if highly enjoyable on the re run do not need overly static content.

DDO shows its bad side for a player witha few new friends trying to adventure into the unknown( what the spirit of the game is all about imo) only to be sucker punched by cheat mechanics that would get a DM at a table top dice bagged half to death.

no content on any difficulty should expect players to have advanced knowledge of the content. Designing so called challenge around meta game factors is horrible for immersion.

Its not like you couldnt fail in other MMO but it was always honest failure, based on the raw power of your character and team against a worthy foe. I think back to city of heroes in its early days and the struggle to take on an unknown arch villain. There where many hard fought battles, and hard to swallow losses as players learned not the game but their own play style and character build better. Not knowning what was coming and how to buff up and burn it down perfectly or suffer absolute waste of time as we get in DDO.

And that is really the OPs spot on point, his play time was a waste of time for he and his friends. It ended with he and them feeling frustrated and bitter. Even effectively having cheated during their first run by using meta game sources like wiki. IMO it is a major failure when raw character power from what sound like some solid builds cant overcome any odds. Mobs in this game should be built like PCs when it comes to stats and HP. Bosses self healing cheat mechanics are lame and disgusting and have no place in a D&D franchise game.

When I think back to things like battles with dragons and beholders from PnP, and the quick draw nature of those fights where a round of action for either side spelled certain death, and it was character build alone that won the day combined with some cheap trick like a pepper grenade to an elder beholder. Or a one shot kill on a great wyrm using a ghost drake mount and a lance phase through the hide to reincorporate in the things brain are how real D&D boss fights should go.

play time that equals waste of time and frustration rather then fun is a failure of a game. Just saying.

Karavek
01-17-2013, 10:56 AM
Allow 80-90 minutes for the quest at first and bring curse potions.


Right here you say it but I dont think you grasp that you are making my own point for me about how much damage the all or nothing nature of DDO experience gain does to discourage new players.

You want people to invest not a handful of minutes, but an hour or more...per quest? And then not be utterly disgusted at the game, rage at other players, or feel punished and feel depression rather then elation from their time spent on a game that will ask them to play through lengthy content only to have 0 progression on their character achieved.

DDOs concept of challenge might be acceptable if they didnt ask for so much time per bit of content. New short content implies the developers are seeing the folly of their ways.

The average person gaming sits down now days for maybe 30 minutes at a time, with rather hectic off and on schedules. Far fewer adult gamers seem willing to give up time with family or going out to sit on their asses looking at a monitor non stop for hours on end. taking frequent breaks to get up and be active even on planned long weekend game sessions etc.

I cant be the only one who gets sick of trying to work their way through long content with a pug, only to have it stall out because of too many going afk and just never coming back in a timely fashion. Id rather run 15 minute pug runs that get done then 2 hour ones that fail due to people getting bored and busy with RL.

elraido
01-17-2013, 11:26 AM
I remember running tempest spine when it first came out. 5 hours and we wiped before we finished it....

Chaos000
01-17-2013, 11:33 AM
play time that equals waste of time and frustration rather then fun is a failure of a game. Just saying.

this.

If enough time is wasted, it would be nice to have the option to at the very least get the favor out of it (without end reward or xp)

Bowser_Koopa
01-17-2013, 11:35 AM
NEW - A new kobold called Nubz has been added to the quest entrance and quests on any difficulty, simply hit the ? on your screen and select "Help Me Nubz!" and Nubz will appear and tell you how to beat any quest you are in, solve any puzzle and cast protection from death on you as well as take control of your character if requested and show you how you to proceed. Nubz also is voice acted by John Madden and has a telestrator to write notes and movements directly on your screen. Enjoy!

Bowserkoopa,
Failing a quest/raid is acceptable.

Tyrande
01-17-2013, 01:02 PM
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game, just not these particular quests right now! Here I feared[...]

Fear is yours and mine biggest enemy. OP, don't give up, you just picked some of the most difficult quests to run in DDO.



It just feels like I read of people soloing these quests on Heroic Elite (or even higher), and I'm left thinking that I'm just an absolutely terrible player.

Borrowing Fred's tentacles here: you are not an absolutely horrible player. You are comparing to to 1% of the player base who can solo these quests on Elite at level.



Thanks for listening, and especially for any pointers you can offer to us "newbies".

Read the experience of other posters here, DDO compendium and DDO wiki.

ETK: Buy the Firestorm Reaves from AH or find it in that rare Commander Errulf's Chest from Mechnectarun. Have everyone or at least the caster equip it. Its non-bound. Let the caster cast Fire Shield: Blue and Fire resists/Fire Protection. Or better yet; create a 45% fire absorption item from green steel crafting.
Then use the spell "Niac's Biting Cold" and "Eladar's Electric Surge" stacked 3 times to take out the Kobold boss and the Efreeti boss. Make sure the healer watches the health of the casters and if PM, use harm.

Monastery: you need someone to solve the puzzle using the Monastery puzzle solver. Google for it. Then another person needs to distract the boss by kiting with buffs; hopefully an undead PM that is immune to dancing. The healer should watch both the kiter's health and the solver's health while not piking. Rest of the party try to keep the thrash off the solver person.

In the Flesh: I don't know this one but a lot of people here do ;) Usually I skip running this chain since the XP isn't that great; the loot isn't great either, and the no ML items are gone.

jsm123
01-17-2013, 01:06 PM
Considering my lvl 16, 2nd lifer drow druid has about 350 if not more HP, yes. And I am wearing a gfl. (my drow is only a 30 pt build with -2 con, compared to your druid at 28 pts, and may or may not be elf. If nto elf, that druid really should have more.)

Drow are 32 pt at base, 4 of which are not chooseable. You have a 34 pt toon with second life drow. Aswell, the -2 penalty to the elf races is not that big. Only 20 HP difference.

As for the OP. It is difficult for a caster to have high HP's. Wizards only get 4 HP/lvl compared to druid's 8HP/lvl. You need items. Superior False Life & Toughness enchantment. You already have the toughness feat from what you said. Try to get a +3 con tome since you have 18 con and consider getting epic toughness when you hit epic lvls. You should be able to get about 600 HP's at lvl 25. I'm lvl 22 on my PM and have just under 500 HP's but no epic toughness.

PS: Are you WF? If so, I would strongly suggest getting the Quorforged Docent of Battle from Mindsunder in IQ. Very useful and fairly easy to get. Be sure to upgrade it. :D