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BlazeWulf
12-17-2012, 02:39 AM
Okay, so a couple friends of mine and I started this game up recently, and I, as a druid, high wisdom, spot as a class skill am the spotter, but for the past few levels(I'm now level 9) my spot is never high enough to find anything. I have 36 spot, our Rogue has 27 search, and after I die to the trap I didn't see, he finds it just fine usually. Sometimes he needs skill boost, but he usually makes it. I would think the search and spot DCs would be the same or at least similiar. I work so hard to maintain a high spot, but it's never enough anymore... what happen?

Blue100000005
12-17-2012, 02:43 AM
Okay, so a couple friends of mine and I started this game up recently, and I, as a druid, high wisdom, spot as a class skill am the spotter, but for the past few levels(I'm now level 9) my spot is never high enough to find anything. I have 36 spot, our Rogue has 27 search, and after I die to the trap I didn't see, he finds it just fine usually. Sometimes he needs skill boost, but he usually makes it. I would think the search and spot DCs would be the same or at least similiar. I work so hard to maintain a high spot, but it's never enough anymore... what happen?

I have often asked myself this too. It just keep seeming unreasonable to hit regardless of the gear you have. I personally suspect you are needing to buy the highest tome to keep hitting the skill DC's.

ashvsaod
12-17-2012, 02:47 AM
Its got nothing to do with tomes.
Traps with a DC over 20 require rogue levels.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Spot

Blue100000005
12-17-2012, 02:59 AM
Its got nothing to do with tomes.
Traps with a DC over 20 require rogue levels.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Spot

So even an artificer needs 1 level of rogue to spot a trap? Doesnt that kill the point of the artificer?

ashvsaod
12-17-2012, 03:05 AM
So even an artificer needs 1 level of rogue to spot a trap? Doesnt that kill the point of the artificer?

Applies to artis also (the compendium is out of date). However I found when running an arti that I didn't have the necessary number of skill points to max all the skills. However ensuring you have the highest spot item should help.

Blue100000005
12-17-2012, 03:10 AM
Applies to artis also (the compendium is out of date). However I found when running an arti that I didn't have the necessary number of skill points to max all the skills. However ensuring you have the highest spot item should help.

I have my skills maxed and even bonus items, i still cant find most stuff. I truly think that the arty lacks when compared to a rogue all skills equal.

ashvsaod
12-17-2012, 03:25 AM
If a rogue has 25 spot and an arti has 25 spot their skills are identical. My understanding is that they have the same ability as rogues but lack the skill points per level to max all necessary skills. Well that's what I found when running an article.

Flavilandile
12-17-2012, 03:32 AM
Past Level 6/7, you will need to have a maxed out spot skill and the best spot item available at the level to have a decent chance to spot anything. ( say 50% of the time or more, it will depends on the buffs you get too. )

The spot item is very important it makes the difference between being able to spot things and not being able to spot them, as usually the spot DC is a little bit under the maxed out value ( skill + item + buffs ) you can get in spot.

Blue100000005
12-17-2012, 03:45 AM
Past Level 6/7, you will need to have a maxed out spot skill and the best spot item available at the level to have a decent chance to spot anything. ( say 50% of the time or more, it will depends on the buffs you get too. )

The spot item is very important it makes the difference between being able to spot things and not being able to spot them, as usually the spot DC is a little bit under the maxed out value ( skill + item + buffs ) you can get in spot.

Makes sense, plus wisdom is not really a great max attribute, so that makes it difficult too i think.

xenobias
12-17-2012, 04:44 AM
As I leveled up my monk her spot almost always went off for a trap or secret door (high wisdom)-but she can't find anything with her search.

She uses spot to find enemies.

The rogue will find it.

So far the only time her spot didn't go off was in the vale quest 'Rainbow' when going for the extra chest. The rogue had to find those boxes.

Maybe you are missing the alarm. it's easy to do with a ton of other things spamming you with text.

BTW: if you are running with a rogue, the rogue should always be scouting ahead of you.

'course can't do that if your rogue is a hireling.

Peace
Xeno

stefferweffer
12-17-2012, 07:54 AM
Find a way to fit the best + WIS item you can (which you probably already have).
Max Spot at each level.
Eat a + WIS tome if you ever find one (IF it will take you to the next bonus point.)
Try to have Heroism or Greater Heroism on you if you can.
Wear the best + Spot item that you can at your level.
Do quests of your recommended level or lower.

My 16/2 Wiz/Rogue maxes Spot, has a Spot + 15 item on at all times, and 12 WIS, and I run with Greater Heroism on (+4 to skills I think). He sees everything at his level or below.

Nyxianne
12-17-2012, 08:49 AM
Don't know about anyone else, and I know that crafting has somewhat solved this problem, but I've always found levels 9 - 13 to be a bit of a rough patch for spot and search skills. The easily obtained random gen gear seems to fall just short of the dcs at that level. Stick it out, keep your eyes peeled for an item with a high Eagle +x, as well as a max wisdom item. If you are still having trouble and you really want that spot - you can also very temporarily boost your spot with potions, potions of owl's skill or reason will create a stacking boost to wisdom skills or wisdom.

The reason why your spot may not be picking up what the rogue in your group can search out is because they work differently. Spot is a static check - you don't get a roll with it, if your spot skill is higher than the hide dc of a trap, door, or enemy you'll get a warning. Search works a bit different, in that you get your search skill plus a roll of a 1d20 to push you above the hide dc of a trap box or hidden door.

Also, the anything with a dc lower than 20 applies to DISABLING (a third and different skill) a trap box. Anyone can attempt to disable an already found trap box with a disable dc below 20. After that a person has to have disabling skills - a class skill only available to artificers and rogues.

Nephilia
12-17-2012, 08:52 AM
Okay, so a couple friends of mine and I started this game up recently, and I, as a druid, high wisdom, spot as a class skill am the spotter, but for the past few levels(I'm now level 9) my spot is never high enough to find anything. I have 36 spot, our Rogue has 27 search, and after I die to the trap I didn't see, he finds it just fine usually. Sometimes he needs skill boost, but he usually makes it. I would think the search and spot DCs would be the same or at least similiar. I work so hard to maintain a high spot, but it's never enough anymore... what happen?

U can't spot trap if u are neither an artificier nor a rogue (even 1 single lv is enough but at least 1).
In your case the spot skill is just used to see from long range the shadow of enemies waiting for u ;)

Plus is your rogue (arti) that should spot traps, as long as nobody else have a splash in that class, as said.
If he's having troubles to spot due to low wis and such (assuming he maxed out the skill at every lv) u can simply craft a easy to do goggle of spot:

1) buy a goggle with a medium or large slot (if u are on ghallanda i think i could give u one for free if I still have one, have to check)
2) craft a spot shard or buy it on the action house and remember to de-craft and re-craft every single time u can applying each time a better shard (captain obvious here, i know...)
3) put a crystal of augment on your slot for a juicy +3 (in case of medium) or +4 (in case of large), this should compensate your lack of wisdom and remember that u could always have a switch wis item for even more spot's points.
4) enjoy!

Talon_Moonshadow
12-17-2012, 09:43 AM
So even an artificer needs 1 level of rogue to spot a trap? Doesnt that kill the point of the artificer?

Rogues, and Artificers get a feat that allows them to Spot traps with DCs higher than 20.

I believe it is the Trap Sense feat.

The Find Traps spell is suppose to grant the same ability, (according to a loading screen note anyway) although I am not sure if or how it works exactly.

Might be interesting to experiment with a Find Traps scroll sometime. (on a non Rogue or Art char)




Edit:

From DDO wiki

Trapfinding
◦Usage: Passive
◦Prerequisite: Rogue Level 1, Artificer Level 1
Description
Only Rogues and Artificers can use the Search skill to locate traps (and their related control panels) when the task has a Difficulty Class (DC) higher than 20.

Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used. This rule really only applies to a very few select low level normal quests. As traps that cast spells are quite uncommon in DDO. It never applies to hard/elite/epic difficulty as those difficulties have much higher DCs for all traps.

Official Description: A rogue can detect and disable difficult traps.




Note
The second level divine spell Find Traps grants the caster the ability to find traps much like a skilled Rogue. The caster gains an insight bonus of caster level/2 to the Search Skill.



Actually, this is all about Search, and not Spot.

I believe that my high Spot characters who are not trapper classes, "do" usually Spot most traps.

There are some traps that are difficult for my Arty to Spot, even with gear and GH and Owl's Wisdom.
My Rogue doesn't get played often enough to be sure...

My Rgr/Rog has Wild Instincts to help him though.... he rarely has a problem.

PLUGintoTHEpowerLINE
12-17-2012, 09:54 AM
Might be interesting to experiment with a Find Traps scroll sometime. (on a non Rogue or Art char)

I may have to play around with it on my cleric.

As for my arti, I don't have a problem with enough skill points -- I'm able to keep Search, Spot, DD, OL, Balance, Concentration, Haggle, and UMD (I may be forgetting something, I'm not in game) maxed. I still have trouble with elite stuff at times. I've been using +5 to spot and search, +7 to disable, and actually finding the traps is hit and miss, though disabling them is rarely a problem between skill boost and +5 tools. Now that I hit l7, and I have +10 to each of those, it might get better. I doubt it, though, lol.

LeadHero5
12-17-2012, 11:20 AM
The reason why your spot may not be picking up what the rogue in your group can search out is because they work differently. Spot is a static check - you don't get a roll with it, if your spot skill is higher than the hide dc of a trap, door, or enemy you'll get a warning. Search works a bit different, in that you get your search skill plus a roll of a 1d20 to push you above the hide dc of a trap box or hidden door.


Can this be confirmed it works this way? I thought both worked the same. If you had the level, you would get the spot message, or a successful search. I see a die roll when I disable a trap or open a lock but don't see a die roll for a search. And the few times that I have searched again, I don't ever recall finding it the second time. I will get it if I switch gear or hit a boost. I'll try to check this out next time I'm on my rogue char. Problem is that spot is easy to check because you can switch gear and spot or not spot; once you search and find it, it is there.

MartinusWyllt
12-17-2012, 11:33 AM
an item with crafted +10 spot and masterful craftsmanship I is ML 5.

+10/+11/+13 will be 5/7/9

I suggest a BtA item to craft on, of course.

If you want to hit the optionals in Partycrashers (heroic elite) you can throw a +11 bluff on something else.

Truga
12-17-2012, 11:34 AM
Are you sure you're not spotting the trap and not just not spotting the warning about it? :P

stefferweffer
12-17-2012, 11:56 AM
Spot it:
I believe that Spot is for 2 things: Seeing invis or stealthed (maybe just stealth) enemies, and "noticing" that something is peculiar, like there is danger nearby. This results in the exclamation warning at the top of the screen, and maybe the trap icon over your name in the upper left corner also. This can also happen if your hireling spots something odd. But I do not believe that it lets you actually see where the trap is, and it certainly does not reveal the trap itself. You only know that there is one nearby. This leads to a...

Search: Now you need to click the Search clickie (magnifying glass) and see if you can actually reveal the trap itself, and also reveal the trap box. Now this is where I confess that on a non-rogue/arti I'm not sure what exactly you might find, if anything. On my wiz/rog, sometimes I'm only close enough to reveal the trap, but not the disable box. Usually, if you get close enough to the actual trap, you will spot the box at the same time. Ocasionally, like in long, corridor filling traps, the box is at the far end of the hallway and cannot be located (via Search) until you are closer to it. I also believe that a high Search skill allows for high Int/Search characters to get a "warning" about secredt doors being nearby, but you still need to search for those to find them. But I'm not certain of this fact since I keep both maxed. Is it my high spot that alerts me to secret doors, or my high search/Int skill?

Disable: Obviously only Rogues/Artis can disable most traps in the game, once the box has been found.

The last thing I will say about the "Spot" skill though, is that I REALLY like the added benefit of seeing hidden enemies before they can sneak up on me. On my wizard and arti, I can often ttarget them and take them down before they even notice me. It also prevents rogue enemies from making sneak attacks on you, if you are already engaging them before they attack you. So in short, "Spot" is one of my favorite skills in the game.

BlazeWulf
12-17-2012, 12:11 PM
Okay, time to sift through what's useful and what's not here...

Okay, my character is a Druid, not a Rogue or Artificer, afaik Druid or Ranger are the only classes that have much use for wisdom AND get spot as a class skill. So with my much higher wisdom than a Rogue, and maxed ranks, I should have higher spot than a Rogue of my level.

I'm fairly certain Trapfinding only works for search and disable device. I'm also sure search and spot both don't make a d20 roll, it's your skill vs the DC, meet it or don't.

Let me break down the important parts that make up my spot skill here for critiquing.

Lvl 9 Half-Elf Druid
12 ranks in spot
22 WIS(+5 WIS item) for +6 to spot
WIS+2 airship buffs gives spot+1
+5 spot from enhancements
+11 spot item
skills+1 from airship buff
Potion of Heroism gives +1(on top of +1 moral from airship)
Voice of the Master trinket gives +1 to skills

38 spot at level 9. It's never enough to see anything. Is anyone able to tell me for sure if Trapfinding is actually nessessary to spot traps? I know it is to search and disable them. OR is there other ways to boost my spot higher if that's nessessary?

Krelar
12-17-2012, 12:21 PM
38 spot at level 9. It's never enough to see anything. Is anyone able to tell me for sure if Trapfinding is actually nessessary to spot traps? I know it is to search and disable them. OR is there other ways to boost my spot higher if that's nessessary?

I don't remember what his spot was, definetly lower than yours, but my warforged rogue with a base wisdom of 6 was able to spot traps at level as long as I maxed ranks and had the best +spot item I could find even at level 9. That would seem to indicate that trapfinding is necessary.

You could also check the suspected spot dc's here (http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Spot_and_Search)

Crann
12-17-2012, 12:43 PM
On a non-INT based class with only 4 skill points per level, you have better skills to worry about than spot. UMD and balance come to mind.

Hambo
12-17-2012, 12:49 PM
Can this be confirmed it works this way? I thought both worked the same. If you had the level, you would get the spot message, or a successful search. I see a die roll when I disable a trap or open a lock but don't see a die roll for a search. And the few times that I have searched again, I don't ever recall finding it the second time. I will get it if I switch gear or hit a boost. I'll try to check this out next time I'm on my rogue char. Problem is that spot is easy to check because you can switch gear and spot or not spot; once you search and find it, it is there.

Spot and Search are quite definitely seperate skills.

I've played mostly Rogues (since 2007) and Artis since their introduction...

I'll use a specific trap as an example: the Acid or Disease (I haven't been hit by it in so long :D) trap in STK, just after dealing with the spiders in part 3. I used to solo this at level 3 and, after Vet I was introduced, level 4.

I've had Alts able to spot and search for the box successfully even on Elite...

On some earlier builds I've had Eagle +3 goggles instead of +5 and still been able to search and find the box after failing to spot.

On other early Alts I've had the opposite, only having Search +3, and failed to search... At this point I'd recall and try to find better search gear before retrying.

Now I start Artis as Vet II (level 7) and have had Alts find and disable this trap with no additional gear. I always run STK on my Alts to try for a Ring of Feathers (habit) and specifically on Artis for the Runearm end reward.

Hope this helps...

dterror
12-17-2012, 12:58 PM
Search and spot are flat meet the DC or don't...but spot has the extra caveat that any traps with 21+ dc CANNOT be spotted w/o either the Find Traps spell active OR the trapfinding feat.

Find Traps will boost the SEARCH skill for the caster by 1 point for every 2 caster levels, but will function to allow spot to notice the 21+ dc traps as well. Find traps is not a druid spell though, so unless you're a half-elf with the cleric / fvs diletante, or have invested in a good bit of UMD, you won't be able to use the spell. Find Traps is self only, noone else can cast it on you.

Enoach
12-17-2012, 01:23 PM
see http://ddowiki.com/page/Trap_Finding

Only Rogues and Artificers will be able to search and find a TRAP with a DC 20 or higher.

The use of the Divine Spell Find Traps grants the caster the ability to bypass this restriction. So technically NO you do not need Trap Finding Feat to Spot a trap as that actually is a SEARCH limit.

However, the SPOT feat (Compendium is out of date) does limit SPOT on Traps of 20 or higher to Rogue and Artificer classes (must have at least 1 level of either of these classes).

For Non-Arti/Rogue characters, spot above 20 is useful for hiding or sneaking mobs. Using Find Trap Spell will only help your search but will not help your ability to spot the trap.

stefferweffer
12-17-2012, 01:50 PM
While we're on this subject, does a high Spot skill "detect" secret doors as well, or is that done with a high INT? (followed by a successful search). I also believe that any class can find secret doors.

dterror
12-17-2012, 01:59 PM
High spot will detect the more secret of secret doors, but most secret doors have a really low spot DC.

Any class can indeed spot and search out secret doors with sufficient skills.

TheGuyYouKnow
12-17-2012, 02:35 PM
Okay, time to sift through what's useful and what's not here...

Okay, my character is a Druid, not a Rogue or Artificer

the problem is that you actually need at least 1 rogue of artificer level to spot traps of higher than 20 dc, it just doesn't work otherwise. you should however still be able to spot hidden mobs and secret doors.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-17-2012, 02:52 PM
Can this be confirmed it works this way? I thought both worked the same. If you had the level, you would get the spot message, or a successful search. I see a die roll when I disable a trap or open a lock but don't see a die roll for a search. And the few times that I have searched again, I don't ever recall finding it the second time. I will get it if I switch gear or hit a boost. I'll try to check this out next time I'm on my rogue char. Problem is that spot is easy to check because you can switch gear and spot or not spot; once you search and find it, it is there.

99.99% positive that there is no D20 roll in DDO.

I have seen some evidence that distance from the box might give a penalty of some sort though.

ferrite
12-17-2012, 03:05 PM
Remember,

The feat 'trapfinding' is required to SEARCH for traps and locate them.

No feat is required to SPOT traps and sense them.

Can you see stealthed enemies in the dungeon you are in? If so, then your SPOT might be high enough to sense dangers. If you cannot see stealthed enemies, then your SPOT clearly is too low for that level of dungeon.

Riuszka
12-17-2012, 03:13 PM
Spot
Usage: Passive
Key ability: Wisdom
Allows you to sense the presence of nearby hidden doors, traps, and objects, and to spot enemies that are trying to hide. This skill is passive (always on). Note that traps with a Spot Difficulty Check (DC) above 20 can only be spotted by rogues.

Working with artificiers too.

marinerfan
12-17-2012, 03:41 PM
Spot
Usage: Passive
Key ability: Wisdom
Allows you to sense the presence of nearby hidden doors, traps, and objects, and to spot enemies that are trying to hide. This skill is passive (always on). Note that traps with a Spot Difficulty Check (DC) above 20 can only be spotted by rogues.

Working with artificiers too.

Lots of conflicting information in this thread...this person is correct about spot.

Also, no, search does NOT have a d20 roll, it is either high enough or not high enough. The only rogue skill that relies on a dice roll is disable device (also open lock...but not so important here..)

BlazeWulf
12-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Great. So it's been proven that I would need a rogue level to spot traps. Or artificer... lame...

Great, now I have to discuss with friends what to do. Thanks for the information guys. Even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear at least now I know.

LordMond63
12-18-2012, 02:29 PM
It sure seems to me that my Monk's high(ish) WIS allows him to sense danger, which is usually in the form of a trap.
It might not explicitly tell him what the danger is, but there aren't that many possibilities other than traps that I can think of.

I've had the same thing happen with not only my high WIS characters but with high WIS hirelings when it comes to secret doors. I'll get a message like, "You sense a draft that is coming out of nowhere." Unfortunately, being that, if the WIS score is high, the INT score tends to be low, I can't do anything about actually searching and finding the blame things.

dterror
12-18-2012, 02:59 PM
It sure seems to me that my Monk's high(ish) WIS allows him to sense danger, which is usually in the form of a trap.
It might not explicitly tell him what the danger is, but there aren't that many possibilities other than traps that I can think of.

I've had the same thing happen with not only my high WIS characters but with high WIS hirelings when it comes to secret doors. I'll get a message like, "You sense a draft that is coming out of nowhere." Unfortunately, being that, if the WIS score is high, the INT score tends to be low, I can't do anything about actually searching and finding the blame things.

Clickies of detect secret doors are plentiful, and your friend :D

Traps have no sentient intent to harm you. W/O obvious signs of a trap (which, many DDO traps do have...big holes in the floor, walls, big slashes in the walls, acid scoring, fire scorching on walls, floor, etc) a high wisdom would not help at all. I would tend to think of a wisdom based 'danger sense' in a monk to be more along the lines of "I sense a disturbance in the Force" type...and a non-sentient trap wouldn't generate those 'ripples'.

dterror
12-18-2012, 03:01 PM
Great. So it's been proven that I would need a rogue level to spot traps. Or artificer... lame...

Great, now I have to discuss with friends what to do. Thanks for the information guys. Even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear at least now I know.

You do not need a rogue or artificer level to spot traps...you just need enough UMD to handle a level 2 cleric spell scroll, or be a half-elf with the cleric or fvs diletante.