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View Full Version : The combat cleric - How do you do it on a first life?



stefferweffer
12-12-2012, 11:24 AM
I have 32 point builds, and I can start at Veteran 7 and "twink" it somewhat with AH gear by my level 18 first life. I'm thinking either Human, Dwarf, or even Drow (my son really likes the Scorpion pet, but I know it will be worthless later). This will be a primarily solo build, with healing of other party members being secondary (my friends usually bring a cleric hireling anyway). Basically I'm hoping that I will be able to solo with this cahracter as easy as my 18 Pale Trapper is so far, at least on Normal and Hard.

I also don't know if its better to go with TWF for DPS, or a Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe with Shield (Tower I suppose) for better defenses.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

FuzzyDuck81
12-12-2012, 11:40 AM
Many ways to do it, but depends somewhat if you're more interested in being a melee or spellcasting cleric, and are you more interested in staying pure, or would a multiclass work, and if so a splash or a deep multiclass build?

Melee ones are arguably the easiest to build, be a dwarf, just have a medium sort of wisdom score, decent level of strength & con & strap on some heavy plate armour.. for weapon style, dwarven axe & board or 2handers both work well; personally i prefer the axe & board approach, but then my own melee divine is a deep splash so have the extra feats to take 2hander use, both shield mastery feats & shield bash on top of the PA/cleave/great cleave/OC combo which really helps to close the dps gap while also making it far more durable... he can heal himself effectively & throw out some basic buffs & emergency healing for others but basically just plays like a paladin with a slightly looser alignment restriction. Even as a melee type if going pure or light multiclass though, don't neglect your casting capabilities totally.. divine punishment is an essential spell, and once stacked up on a boss will still add a very significant amount of dps while you hit them too.

Can't say too much about caster clerics though, never really played them much so hopefully one of the other great build gurus will be able to supply more info on that.

Dingleburr
12-12-2012, 11:46 AM
I have 32 point builds, and I can start at Veteran 7 and "twink" it somewhat with AH gear by my level 18 first life. I'm thinking either Human, Dwarf, or even Drow (my son really likes the Scorpion pet, but I know it will be worthless later). This will be a primarily solo build, with healing of other party members being secondary (my friends usually bring a cleric hireling anyway). Basically I'm hoping that I will be able to solo with this cahracter as easy as my 18 Pale Trapper is so far, at least on Normal and Hard.

I also don't know if its better to go with TWF for DPS, or a Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe with Shield (Tower I suppose) for better defenses.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

TWF is really hard to build for on a cleric due to feat restrictions. I've done it, and wouldn't recommend it unless you're really good at cobbling together odd builds.

Your best bet is probably:
19 CLR / 1 FTR
Dwarf
Swap between greataxe and dorf axe + shield

yawumpus
12-12-2012, 11:59 AM
Races:
I can't imagine anything other than human or half elf. The human enhancements are going to beat all the dwarf ones pretty well (humans can get toughness 3, so its toughness 4 and extra constitution vs. extra wisdom and healing amp). The only difference between humans and helves is that humans would be stuck with a single weapon (typically greataxe) and might not be able to use any nifty weapon they find.

TWF is mostly nerfed into the ground. You will need 17 dexterity (consider elves and drow), but that is much easier now that tomes have dropped in price. You will also likely need both a crafting toon and shared bank (TWF lives off weapon effects).

Bastard sword/dwarven axe only makes sense with the full line of THF chain and typically barbarian enhancements or melee ED lines. This is something like 5 feats (weapon prof, 3 THF, shield mastery) [I'd assume this means human+2 levels of fighter]

THF is probably a better way to go, as it only eats two feats (weapon prof and power attack). Ignore the THF chain.

Note that plenty of material written about these choices likely ignores the great clicky nerf that happened with the expansion. When you cast you will have to decide between switching to casting "weapons" (that crank your spellpower) or continuing fighting with your melee weapon. If you go with TWF this will be far less of an issue as you will likely change weapons for each monster ("golf bag?" my ranger carried 28 weapons. That's two full regulation USGA golf bags) so this will seem like old hat.

In the end, you have two huge choices to make:
Take [a] fighter level[s]? This choice somewhats limits casting but gives you the extra feats needed for both lines. Some swear by it as most parties looking for nannybots won't consider you an option.
Dump wisdom? WF Melee FVSs typically take this option. It works great if you are really serious about your melee, but often ruins your casting abilities outside of healing and buffing. The rules are favoring casters over melee (in general), so this tends to limit your power.

My recommendation is to stay as close to a typical casting cleric as possible. Go human, max your wisdom, and 16,14 in strength and constitution (whichever is higher is your choice). Take weap. prof. great axe (at first level), but make sure you can swap it out for something else later (quicken would work well). Power attack won't be necessary until a bit later (your BAB goes up slower than melee, and you will have more problems hitting anyway) and you can decide then if you want it.

I'd also at least consider a heavy repeater build (note, you can't take ex. prof. repeater 1st level): why let the arties have all the repeater + blade barrier fun? [note: a crafting toon goes a long way with repeater builds]

Therigar
12-12-2012, 12:02 PM
You essentially have 2 choices. You can remain pure cleric which will give you an advantage in the late game and on epic content because of spell DCs. Or, you can splash up to 3 levels of combat classes for greater access to weapons and feats (either class specific inherent feats or bonus feats).

In the far distant past I ran a drow fighter/cleric to 2/14. The level cap at the time was 16. Due to the way the game was designed then and the number of people that actually had great gear (that is, not many), it worked very well. But, if I were to do this in today's game I probably would go dwarf fighter/cleric.

Dwarf offers some racial perks to the cleric class. They aren't much but they're better than the other races. If I did not go dwarf then I'd go human using the bonus feat to pick up khopesh or half-elf using the dilettante to try and find something useful to add.

The problem with a fighter splash is that you are focusing your build points somewhere other that in WIS. For this reason there are a lot of players who will prefer monk to fighter. Both bring 2 additional feats but monk also gives evasion and lets you put the emphasis on WIS.

IMO this gives a good character for heroic content but it might suffer in epic. You don't end up with any of the real benefits of the monk class so become a weak melee character at the end. And, you still have to contend with the issues of stat distribution.

If you do not need to be a primary healer then you can consider deeper splashes. This lets you function essentially as the melee class but with the bonus of having spells for buffs, cures and some offensive casting. Typically players will keep enough cleric levels to at least have blade barrier.

Once again, this will work well enough in heroic content. The reduced DCs will be a real issue in epic if you want offensive spells to land.

Of course, you could specialize in light based spells. These give no saves and are unaffected by spell resistance.

If going pure class you can build with high WIS, respectable CON and reasonable STR. You then grab the biggest melee weapon you can get and swing away. It is worth considering human for the bonus feat in order to invest in a two-handed weapon proficiency. Another idea is to go warforged and take the bladesworn enhancements for use of great swords.

Of course, warforged cleric seems counter intuitive and probably more now with the changes to healing effects on warforged.

FuzzyDuck81
12-12-2012, 12:18 PM
One more note: know what it is you want the character to do & plan out a build with that in mind - IMO one of the worst mistakes you can make with any character is not a matter of which role you choose but a matter of not being sure, and making one up as you go with a rather muddled skillset - a mistake i have made in the past, many times :)

AbyssalMage
12-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I vote Clonk. Doesn't have the PRR of a Battle Cleric but you get Evasion and Stunning Fists.

stefferweffer
12-12-2012, 01:25 PM
Why do I always get these messed up? I meant 2 HANDED fighting, rather than 2 weapon fighting :)

Sorry about that!

stefferweffer
12-12-2012, 01:33 PM
If I go "Sword and Board", as they say, is it a given that I pick up Tower Shield Mastery at some point? Or do a lot of sword and board clerics just use large shields? Also, the advantage of the THF line, if I understand it right, is that it works for both a Dwarven Axe/Bastard Sword specialty and actual 2 handed weapons right? (or am I just thinking of the glancing blows thing?)

Thanks again.

rcal13
12-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Here is a good battle cleric
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164323
I hope it is helpful
You really need to decide on your build before you start. I have two bank toons that suck because I just went with the flow. Some thing work early on but will be useless later.

Dingleburr
12-12-2012, 01:51 PM
If I go "Sword and Board", as they say, is it a given that I pick up Tower Shield Mastery at some point? Or do a lot of sword and board clerics just use large shields? Also, the advantage of the THF line, if I understand it right, is that it works for both a Dwarven Axe/Bastard Sword specialty and actual 2 handed weapons right? (or am I just thinking of the glancing blows thing?)

Thanks again.

My first rule of playing a cleric is: always be the last to die. To that end, a combat cleric should be durable enough to mix it up in the scrum while your aura provides constant healing to the melee.

Tower shields are nice - better AC and PRR - but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're absolutely necessary. There are many avenues to build for durability. Tower shield proficiency is one.

You are correct that the THF line improves glancing blows of DAxe/BSword when used one-handed or with a shield.

Kinerd
12-12-2012, 02:31 PM
You will not have as easy a time, so resign yourself to that now. Wizards have much better combat PrEs, a much better combat spellbook, and much better combat enhancements. (Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?)

A shield is generally not a good choice in heroic content because you significantly reduce your offense for only a marginal increase in defense. This is even worse when your base offense is low and base defense high, as Aura and soloing already make you practically invincible.

The upside is that it is very easy to get into groups as a cleric, so you have less impetus to solo in the first place.
Note that plenty of material written about these choices likely ignores the great clicky nerf that happened with the expansion. When you cast you will have to decide between switching to casting "weapons" (that crank your spellpower) or continuing fighting with your melee weapon. If you go with TWF this will be far less of an issue as you will likely change weapons for each monster ("golf bag?" my ranger carried 28 weapons. That's two full regulation USGA golf bags) so this will seem like old hat.One mitigating factor is that you can put some (albeit not much) spell power on rings via Cannith crafting.

FuzzyDuck81
12-12-2012, 02:53 PM
Tower shield proficiency is granted by even a single fighter level.. with the extra benefits from that splash, its far better than taking the individual feat unless you really have a pressing need to stay pure.

unbongwah
12-12-2012, 02:58 PM
You will not have as easy a time, so resign yourself to that now. Wizards have much better combat PrEs, a much better combat spellbook, and much better combat enhancements.
Battleclerics have an easier time soloing at low lvls than a (fleshie) wiz like the OP has played: more HPs, self-heals, better melee DPS, much higher AC. Once you make it past that "hump," though, a good PM is an unkillable engine of death. And the OP has Vet II unlocked, which means he'll skip the levels where BCs have the easiest time and go right to the part where soloing is more of a struggle (though not difficult); it's where a BC's melee DPS is lagging behind the "real" melees but they don't yet have their good DPS spells.

stefferweffer
12-12-2012, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I figured that the most frustrating levels will be waiting for Blade Barrier (and spells that follow) to come out. I'm thinking I will also, as a first life, want to focus on light spells and anything that ignores spell penetration and DCs. I'm still torn between 2HF and Sword and Board though, and also how much Fighter to splash.

Does a Battle Cleric (focusing on Direct Damage instead of DC/Spell Pen) put their attribute points at level up into STR or still in WIS?

If I want to splash one level of fighter, should I wait until after I have blade barrier, or instead get that out of the way in these first 7 levels? If I go Human Fighter at level 1, that's 3 feats right at first level, and then I could do 6 cleric after that. It would allow me to take a weapon prof like bastard sword right away (and I think use a greataxe also, or is that also exotic?), and use tower shields too, and maybe Toughness as another feat (Something to boost healing perhaps as 3rd feat?) Then I'd need to know what to take at 3 and 6 also.

Then again, if I save the Fighter splash for level 8, then I'd have 4th level spells when I begin the game at level 7 (otherwise waiting till level 8 for those).

Sounds like I should not expect to finish quests as fast with this character as I do with my wiz/rogue palemaster :( Although maybe if there is a good summon monster and a good hireling (maybe even an arcane), it might be better?

WruntJunior
12-12-2012, 04:55 PM
My character is a FvS as I prefer that class for divines, but my ideas for it work mostly the same on a cleric.

Personally, I'd take a fighter level as soon as possible for weapon proficiency and a free feat. A second fighter level is useful later on for a second feat (I'm not taking mine until level 20, though, but that's because I want wings when doing elite Vale). Going THF is best in my opinion, and you can pretty easily get the GTHF chain. A divine will be pretty easy to solo no matter what as long as you can deal with enemies - when you get to level 12 with this character build (assuming 11 cleric 1 fighter), that gets extremely easy due to blade barrier.

I'm not entirely sure on stat spread for an 18 cleric/2 fighter, though, as divine might is something to take into consideration (and, therefore, so is charisma)....however, strength is still the primary stat to worry about, as you ARE in fact a melee build (though you need to have 19 wis to cast level 9 spells).

For race, though, I'd go half-elf or human...easy healing amp makes soloing incredibly easy.

Overall, I'd personally want to TR this character when possible to get it up to a 36-point build to make stats easier...but while a melee divine is a very strong character, it probably won't ever solo as fast as an arcane (as it's a completely different play-style). My melee FvS noticeably does less damage than an equally-geared barbarian or fighter (though not that bad, especially with divine punishment)....but how many barbarians or fighters can cast quickened heals? :P

stefferweffer
12-12-2012, 05:10 PM
Thanks all.

I looked at the link for the battle cleric with 2 levels of Monk also. While I did purchase the Monk class, it looked very "clickie", or fast fingers, to me, which I did not like (like having finishing moves and such.) Do "Clonks" still have to use these moves, or do they rely on other things instead? It does seem somewhat appealing to "break the mold" of the standard cleric running around in heavy armor with a heavy weapon, and going for the agile look instead.

Can a 32 point Human "Clonk" do well without all the fancy elite/raid gear? (I am not adverse to buying a supreme tome of +3 or +4 from the DDO store either, which I did for my Palemaster.) Should the monk levels come sooner or later (like after Blade Barrier)? If they come later, then I assume you just use heavy armor, a mace and a shield until that time?

Gremmlynn
12-12-2012, 10:01 PM
Personally, I'd go with dwarf if going 1 fighter level. The free human feat you are using on bas sword would be replaced with racial access to D axe. You would get 2 points of con from enhancements rather than, presumably 1 con and 1 wis. You would also have access to racial enhancements to both extra spell points and axe attack and damage.

If you are serious about melee, then 2 feats I'd consider necessary would be power attack (which makes those racial attack enhancements valuable) and improved critical. Then figure in toughness and what meta or other feats you will need, empowered healing and quicken would seem essential. THF feats should only be considered if there were any left over feat slots IMO, nice but I would go with cleave for full damage sweeps over just enhancing glancing blows a bit.

EllisDee37
12-13-2012, 05:00 AM
I looked at the link for the battle cleric with 2 levels of Monk also. While I did purchase the Monk class, it looked very "clickie", or fast fingers, to me, which I did not like (like having finishing moves and such.) Do "Clonks" still have to use these moves, or do they rely on other things instead? It does seem somewhat appealing to "break the mold" of the standard cleric running around in heavy armor with a heavy weapon, and going for the agile look instead.

Can a 32 point Human "Clonk" do well without all the fancy elite/raid gear? (I am not adverse to buying a supreme tome of +3 or +4 from the DDO store either, which I did for my Palemaster.) Should the monk levels come sooner or later (like after Blade Barrier)? If they come later, then I assume you just use heavy armor, a mace and a shield until that time?I think a clonk will end up fitting your playstyle best. You don't have to go nuts with clickie attacks; you can just have a "bread and butter" one or two moves and call it good enough. Heck, half the clickies my challenge farmer monk uses are to self-heal, and you'll have that covered in spades with your cleric abilities. Getting evasion and being agile will play into your wheelhouse, having come from an evasion wizard.

The battle cleric is also a solid choice, typically 19/1 or 18/2 cleric/fighter. They don't appeal to me personally only because they are anything but agile. Slow, plodding, and can only jump an inch. God forbid you should ever have to swim anywhere, heh. But incredibly survivable and super easy to solo with, assuming you can twitch past traps. (Much easier to do that on a clonk.)

Another option is caster cleric, where you focus on spell pen and DCs. I haven't played one yet, but I did plan one out and am about to TR my healbot cleric into one. It should theoretically work fine on a first life, but I'm grabbing a couple wizard lives first for spell pen and an extra evocation dc. A single wizard past life is definitely plenty; I'm just doing 2 to save a few AP. With a single wizard life you can hit 38 spell pen after spending only 6 AP. (With two lives you don't have to spend any AP at all on spell pen.)

Here's the plan (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4769168&postcount=40) I came up with. As I said I haven't actually played it yet, though, so I can't vouch for it. All in all, for you I think a clonk might be the most fun.

Having only ever played a healbot I'm really just guessing, though.

MnaSidhe
12-13-2012, 05:17 AM
I've done a couple of battle clerics... and for the heroic content really anything works... just make sure you end up with enough wisdom to be able to cast your highest level spells, and pump up the str! :)

I thought that the AC changes really put the hurt onto CLONKs?

Edit: Oh, and if you have a higher level Alt and the access for it... try a couple of farming runs of the Chronoscope... hunt down the charged gauntlets!

Rawrargh
12-13-2012, 06:35 AM
First off, decide if you wanna be a melee and healer or a caster and healer.

If you decide on the first, start with a level of fighter, then 6 levels of cleric.

I prefer dwarves for this type of build, since they get a bump in con and extra axe damage. Since this is your first divine it's important that you don't try to bite over more than you can chew, so my advice is to keep it simple.

As for stat distribution, go for high strength and con and a little bit of wis and cha. You only need a wisdom score of 10+ spell level to cast spells. So a final wisdom of 19 is doable. Charisma gives you additional turns, wich gives you more auras and bursts.

For feats I'd go for something along the lines of:

1) Toughness, power attack (ftr)
3) Empower healing
6) Cleave
9) Quicken
12) Improved critical slashing
12-14) Great cleave (ftr)
15) Maximize/THF
18) Empower/ITHF
21) Overwhelming Critical
24) Some fancy epic feat/GTHF

I wouldn't bother with the THF line unless you get all 3 feats, since GTHF allows for glancing blows on a 3rd attack in the chain.

The second fighter level can be taken pretty much anywhere, but I'd probably push it up until after you get RS II.

Anyways, hope this is helpful, good luck.

Furare
12-13-2012, 07:11 AM
This (http://my.ddo.com/furare/2012/08/07/aralena-the-fury-of-the-host/) is my melee cleric.

If you don't want to sift through the build, she's a 2F/18C half-elf with barbarian dilettante. (It used to be sorcerer, but I have 32 UMD now so I don't really need the dil to use arcane wands/scrolls.) The build would work just fine as a human, though. I think you wind up with 10 fewer HP or something, but you get an extra feat.

I don't remember my starting stats. I think it was 16/8/14/10/15/14. Honestly, you don't need that much Wisdom, but I can't be bothered with LRing when I'll probably TR her once I get my alleged "main" back to cap.

Suggested stats: 17/8/14/10/12/14 (32pt)

Skills: Concentration (23), UMD (11), Balance - once you get a +2 Int tome, LR and put additional points in this from L7 onwards.

Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Mental Toughness, Empower Healing, Extend, Quicken, IC: Slashing, Toughness, Maximize, Empower, Great Strength.

(I'm not saying those are optimal feats; you might want to drop Mental Toughness and Extend for something else.)

Predominantly THF, but I have a Tower Shield for when I need to turtle up. I usually only use the shield defensively, so I pair it with a Devotion stick.

Always start with a cleric level. You want as many points in Concentration as you can; starting with cleric allows you to put 4 points in Concentration and 2 in UMD. (For a fighter, Concentration is cross-class and you can only put 1 point in.)

I don't have evasion or much by way of reflex save - you'll probably have enough HP to not bother about traps on Normal and Hard, honestly. It's only on Elite that traps really hurt.

Auras are the best thing ever. Between spellpower boosts and healing amp boosts, I heal myself for like 76HP per tick. (A friend of mine has still more insane heal amp and it's over 100HP per tick. o_O) On EH I very rarely have to spot heal anyone. I just run around spamming light SLAs, hitting things with my axe, regenerating SP from torc procs and giggling about how OP battle clerics are. I think my guildies find it amusing. >.>

ThreeEyedBob
12-13-2012, 07:49 AM
I would argue human 2 artificer/18 cleric :-) and grab an Improved Cursespewing Heavy Repeater of Improved Shattermantle later on. Makes the instakills like Slay Living or Destruction much much more effective. Pluss you have a runearm you can craft on devotion in addition to the potency (Lucid Dreams for example with Masterful Crafting and Devotion). Or just fit Devotion on a ring through crafting (others can craft the shard for you).

This way you can hang back and spam curses on mobs which will help all casters in the party land their spells or melee land their stuns etc.

At the lower levels you can go with a regular Cursespewing machinegun, a Paralyzer is also a nice option if you can get one.

Mordayn
12-13-2012, 08:00 AM
I've seen a lot of good notes on the Melee version of the Battle Cleric. I really like the Artificer splash version, but I'd also like to input my caster version that has been really interesting to play.

Name: Ametryst d’Fallenangel
Level 25 True Nuetral Halfling Female
(19 Cleric // 1 Sorcerer)

First Life Stats:

Hit Points: 698
Spell Points: 3135
AC: 40-56

Number of Radiant Bursts: 18-22

Starting
Abilities Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1)
Strength 10
Dexterity 10
Constitution 15
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18 (all upgrade points go to Wisdom)
Charisma 10

Fully buffed stats are: 16 / 16 / 31 / 16 / 45 / 28

I can get some of those higher when I get Yugoloth Pots, or some situational items (Madstone Boots, Cookies, etc.) It should be feasible to hit 50 Wisdom at final buildout.

Skill Point Allocation:
Balance (11.5)
Concentration (23)
Jump (7)

List of Feats (by level taken):
1) Empower Healing
3) Toughness
6) Maximize
9) Quicken
12) Heighten
15) Empower Spell
18) Spell Penetration

Extra Feats:
Draconic Vitality
Coin Lord Finishing School

Enhancements:
Cleric Radiant Servant II
Unyielding Sovereignty
Follower of the Sovereign Host
Racial Toughness II
Improved Heal II
Cleric Prayer of Smiting III
Cleric Prayer of Life I
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Force Manipulation I
Cleric Smiting IV
Cleric Life Magic IV
Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Cleric Wisdom III
Cleric Divine Healing I
Cleric Extra Turning III
Cleric Improved Turning I
Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III

Yes, I do have the Epic Destiny for Cleric's maxed out for healing. I tend to use the healing explosion more than anything else (I just think its cool.) I have a lot of things pumped up for just straight caster DPS (BB, cometfall, etc) but also have a lot put into instant kills. I can make implosion connect with all but the toughest Epic's. I tend to be able to hold my own, and with a couple gear modifications on the fly, I can melee pretty well too.

Ultimately whichever way you turn your cleric, just have fun!

Djeserit
12-13-2012, 08:17 AM
There's no right way to do it, but here's my cps. (All this applies to the current game only.)

Why cleric and not fvs? The only reason would be healing aura. Fvs out performs cleric in everyother way. Wings.

Human, not dwarf.

Consider 18clr/1ftr/1barbarian. Being a tower of healing is about getting there the firstest with the mostest. Barbarian speed and sprint boost help you get where you need to be.

No shield. You are there to suck up damage. And kill righteously.

Cleave. Great cleave. Overwhelming critical.

Dump wisdom. Don't dump CHA.

On your first cleric life, turn undead is probably not that great. On subsequent lives it will work great for leveling up. For some reason most of the juicy mid-level quests have lots of undead.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 08:41 AM
If I made a Clonk (or anything for that matter), it would likely only have AH gear and quest rewards for most of its life (No raid gear in other words).

Someone mentioned that an "AC nerf" has hurt Clonks who raised their Wisdom and Dex as high as possible (I assume) to get to a good AC in their robes (and two Kamas). Is this correct, such that a Clonk like mine would not be able to solo well on Epic Normal or Epic Hard? (I have no interest in Epic Elite on a first life.) Higher wisdom would mean decent DCs and spell points for casting purposes.

Also, I've never seen a build that tries to make use of Dodge. Is Dodge somehow broken, or just not worth it for some reason?

The Clonk build I saw did not take the monk levels until after 12 cleric levels. Is there a good reason for this?

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 09:22 AM
Someone mentioned that an "AC nerf" has hurt Clonks who raised their Wisdom and Dex as high as possible (I assume) to get to a good AC in their robes (and two Kamas). Is this correct, such that a Clonk like mine would not be able to solo well on Epic Normal or Epic Hard?
The combat changes in U14 have nerfed clonks (and monk splashes in general) in a couple of key ways:


The AC / to-hit system is no longer linear. The good news is it makes it easier for most builds to have at least semi-useful AC (in the past AC tended to be an all-or-nothing gear & build investment, particularly in epics); the bad news is you hit diminishing returns on AC (i.e., +1 AC is no longer +5% miss chance) and can't reach the nigh-untouchable levels of pre-U14 which a good clonk could manage.
The AC for all base armors has been significantly increased at higher lvls. Thus the classic heavily-armored S&B cleric finally has AC which is competitive with (if not superior to) the clonk.
PRR (http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating) is an important part of one's defenses and is partially based on one's armor: the heavier the armor, the higher your PRR. If you invest in the Shield Mastery feats, you get higher PRR & melee DPS (doublestrike) as well.

For clerics all this means you no longer have the (somewhat absurd) situation where a heavily-armored S&B cleric had less protection than a nekkid clonk. That said, there are still incentives to playing a clonk, inc. extra feats, higher saves, Evasion, handwraps for DPS, Stunning Fist, and Ocean stance for +WIS, saves, Dodge.

Also, I've never seen a build that tries to make use of Dodge. Is Dodge somehow broken, or just not worth it for some reason?Clerics tend to be feat-starved (battleclerics even more so) and don't have the gear slots to spare to invest in Dodge; thus most don't bother.

The Clonk build I saw did not take the monk levels until after 12 cleric levels. Is there a good reason for this?Presumably the builder wanted to make a beeline for lvl 6 spells (Heal, Blade Barrier) and Radiant Servant II before splashing.

Bottom line: there are lots of good ways of building a battlecleric - and even more bad ways. :cool: The trick is figuring out how you want to play your BC and what you want to be good at (i.e., heals, melee DPS, caster DPS, CC spells, etc.), then find a build which best fits your preferences and goals.

Mercureal
12-13-2012, 09:28 AM
The changes to AC did hurt Monk builds, in the sense that non-cloth armour got buffed. Wis/Dex Monks can still get AC to a pretty high level if you acquire the gear, but it takes longer than just using the best lootgen metal armour you can find and it'll be lacking in PRR.

Dodge is good, but it seems like you need to really commit to it to get it into higher levels (teens or 20s - it's capped for sustainable purposes at 25%). To have good defence on a clonk would likely mean limiting your melee DPS.

Just to muddy the waters, I'll point out that you don't really need to multiclass to be a battlecleric. I did plenty of meleeing with my gimpy, 28-point pure cleric up to around level 10, and occasionally afterwards. Clerics can use heavy armour and shields, and with an enhancement can use longswords without taking the feat. They have plenty of combat-oriented buffs - Divine Favour, Divine Power, Shield of Faith, Divine Might - more than enough to make them a decent fighter when it's needed. Which is the original concept of the cleric in D&D anyway.

And the reality is, even with a splash build, it'll be pretty hard to kill things in melee at the higher levels - your spells will still be more effective. The value from the non-cleric levels is fairly front-loaded, in my opinion.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 09:30 AM
Also, Whirling Steel Strike seems to allow a Monk to use Longswords and still be "Centered". Would this be a good feat to have, to use those instead of Kamas? One level of Fighter would seem to allow for both the profficiency and the feat, I think. So would a Human 17 Cleric/1 Fighter/2 Monk work?

Maybe feats something like: Level 1 - Monk - Toughness, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Level 2 - Fighter - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Level 3 - Cleric - Empower Healing, Level 4 - Monk - Whirling Steel Strike, Level 6 - Cleric - Extend, Level 9 - Cleric - Improved 2 Weapon Fighting

Like I said, I'm still new, so if this is a dumb idea just let me know. Thanks again for all the help.

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Also, Whirling Steel Strike seems to allow a Monk to use Longswords and still be "Centered". Would this be a good feat to have, to use those instead of Kamas?
No - WSS is a trap. You spend two feats (also req's WF:Slash) to do less DPS than you would with handwraps; those two feats could instead go towards, say, Stunning Fist (awesome w/high WIS) and another melee or meta feat. Need to stay centered w/caster gear? Either staves or crafted kamas will work w/out any feats spent.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 09:47 AM
Well, having read all of that about PRR, it seems that a cleric with Heavy Armor and a Tower Shield is rather well protected too. One Fighter level would give automatic tower shield profficiency, and also allow for the use of a Khopesh, B Sword, or Dwarven Axe. Assuming I went 19/1 Fighter Cleric (Fighter at first level - Power Attack, Toughness, and an exotic weapon prof), and eventually take Improved Critical, which weapon specialty would be the best? I think I read that B Swords and D Axes do glancing blows now.

Since I can easily (with money I mean) get +6 gear (AH) and +3/+4 tomes (DDO Store) later on, would there be any harm in just starting with 18 WIS, 14 CON and 16 STR (A key difference in this idea and a Clonk is that I can ignore Dex at the character creation).

Stoner81
12-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Well, having read all of that about PRR, it seems that a cleric with Heavy Armor and a Tower Shield is rather well protected too. One Fighter level would give automatic tower shield profficiency, and also allow for the use of a Khopesh, B Sword, or Dwarven Axe. Assuming I went 19/1 Fighter Cleric (Fighter at first level - Power Attack, Toughness, and an exotic weapon prof) and eventually take Improved Critical, which weapon specialty would be the best? I think I read that B Swords and D Axes do glancing blows now.

Since I can easily (with money I mean) get +6 gear (AH) and +3/+4 tomes (DDO Store) later on, would there be any harm in just starting with 18 WIS, 14 CON and 16 STR (A key difference in this idea and a Clonk is that I can ignore Dex at the character creation).

If you take a level of Fighter and have a Dwarf he/she will automatically get the feat for Dwarven Axe for free, to take Khopesh or Bastard Sword would require a feat as you said. I have started a Battlecleric myself and gone with a Dwarf 18/2 (Cleric/Fighter) split mostly for the extra feats, D.Axe and Tower Shield. D.Axe do get glancing blows even more so with the full THF line (which is what I am doing) same goes for Bastard Sword as far as I know (never used them though so I could be wrong).

Stoner81.

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 10:08 AM
Another option is to take a wiz splash instead of ftr; this adds an extra meta feat and you can use Master's Touch for all martial weapons prof. (inc. d.axe on a dwarf) and tower shields, plus you can have a couple more lvl 1 arcane buffs (e.g., Expeditious Retreat, Shield) and free access to arcane wands (Blur, Stoneskin, etc.).

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 10:19 AM
If you take a level of Fighter and have a Dwarf he/she will automatically get the feat for Dwarven Axe for free, to take Khopesh or Bastard Sword would require a feat as you said. I have started a Battlecleric myself and gone with a Dwarf 18/2 (Cleric/Fighter) split mostly for the extra feats, D.Axe and Tower Shield. D.Axe do get glancing blows even more so with the full THF line (which is what I am doing) same goes for Bastard Sword as far as I know (never used them though so I could be wrong).

Stoner81.
Yeah, with 32 point build I could get better starting stats with a dwarf (sort of), and have more HP at end game (I think), but I would really miss Human Vers, their extra skill points, and the ability to diversify better. I could always start off with both, I suppose, and see which I like better :) (Human w/ B Sword and Dwarf with Axe).

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 10:32 AM
Unless you're investing in the THF feats for more glancing blows, b.sword isn't really worth it; either take khopesh, stick with rapiers / scimitars, or go 2H.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 11:24 AM
Regarding the possibility of one wizard level (which is appealing), how do you get past the arcane failure on those 1st level spells caused by the heavy armor and shield? Do you disrobe just to cast those? (Lol, the "Streaker" build :) )

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Regarding the possibility of one wizard level (which is appealing), how do you get past the arcane failure on those 1st level spells caused by the heavy armor and shield? Do you disrobe just to cast those? (Lol, the "Streaker" build :) )
Master's Touch has no somatic component, which means it never suffers from ASF. As for other lvl 1 arcane spells, you could use Twilight armor / shields for reduced ASF, though that's suboptimal from a gear perspective.

Dingleburr
12-13-2012, 12:00 PM
Yeah, with 32 point build I could get better starting stats with a dwarf (sort of), and have more HP at end game (I think), but I would really miss Human Vers, their extra skill points, and the ability to diversify better. I could always start off with both, I suppose, and see which I like better :) (Human w/ B Sword and Dwarf with Axe).

Both are solid. Human is never a bad choice. My preference for dwarf boils down to:

(1) They are relatively uncommon - because for most builds there is a clear better choice. In this case, it's debatable.
(2) Dwarf racial axe enhancements work with both DAxe and GAxe, so you can swap between THF & s/b depending on whether you want the durability or the damage. If you go human / khopesh, you're stuck in s/b mode.

Human versatility is definitely nice for the damage boost. But a 1 fighter splash gets you haste boost. How many pre-combat clickies do you want to manage? Keep in mind that as a combat cleric you'll also be using divine power, divine favor, and (maybe) divine might.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 01:18 PM
Is it true that at level 20+, no matter how much I try to boost melee, I'm going to do better (SOLOING) just focusing on spells? If this is the case, then a 19/1 Dwarf Cleric/Wizard seems to be the better choice. It seems to me (if I'm hearing correctly) that things like Haste, Power Attack, etc might be nice at lower levels, but by the upper levels I will be casting most of the time. So if I took the Wizard level at 1, for Master's Touch and a Wizard Feat, and then go Cleric the rest of the way, I could use a Dwarven Axe and Tower Shield for Melee, but other than Toughness just entirely on healing and spellpower (Light, Healing, Force, Fire, Auras, etc). And put points into Wisdom (start with 18) to get decent DCs by end of game?

Would this be a character that could solo well to level 20, and maybe even Epic Normal or Epic Hard, on a first life?

Dingleburr
12-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Is it true that at level 20+, no matter how much I try to boost melee, I'm going to do better (SOLOING) just focusing on spells? If this is the case, then a 19/1 Dwarf Cleric/Wizard seems to be the better choice. It seems to me (if I'm hearing correctly) that things like Haste, Power Attack, etc might be nice at lower levels, but by the upper levels I will be casting most of the time. So if I took the Wizard level at 1, for Master's Touch and a Wizard Feat, and then go Cleric the rest of the way, I could use a Dwarven Axe and Tower Shield for Melee, but other than Toughness just entirely on healing and spellpower (Light, Healing, Force, Fire, Auras, etc). And put points into Wisdom (start with 18) to get decent DCs by end of game?

Would this be a character that could solo well to level 20, and maybe even Epic Normal or Epic Hard, on a first life?

My 19/1 TWF halfling battlecleric could solo EH on his first life. And he was a flavor build (aka sub-optimal), built for a support role - not for soloing.

But I digress - you seem to be gravitating away from a STR-based battlecleric towards a WIS-based evoker (caster) build. That's a very different animal, and Wiz splash definitely works better than fighter because of the enhancements it opens up. But if that's the case, human FVS would be superior in pretty much every way.

One caution: don't try to mix melee with evoker at endgame or you'll wind up with a build that does nothing well, except maybe for healing. At early levels, even for an evoker, melee is probably your best option. On my recent FVS TR life, my first feat was greatsword proficiency. I'll swap that out with Fred for a metamagic around L8 when casting starts to become more effective than swinging a beatstick.

unbongwah
12-13-2012, 02:05 PM
Is it true that at level 20+, no matter how much I try to boost melee, I'm going to do better (SOLOING) just focusing on spells?
IMHO, melee clerics have an easier time leveling for the first 10 lvls or so; most of the lower-lvl offensive divine spells don't do enough DPS to be worth the SP cost in that lvl range. The major turning point is Blade Barrier: that's when caster clerics have better DPS vs mobs than melee clerics. Add in Cometfall for DPS+CC and Divine Punishment for boss fights. Get to epics and you should be tossing out Implosions & Energy Drains as well.

stefferweffer
12-13-2012, 02:54 PM
That's what I was thinking as well. Struggle for the next 5 levels (7-12 because of Veteran) to get to Blade Barrier, but then be able to solo easier the rest of the way.

For Favored Soul, yes they could cast more often, but having been "spoiled" with a Wizard, I fear I would miss the versatility of swapping spells out at will. I also think that they can't wear Heavy Armor, correct? Will I notice the extra damage that I am taking?

For the Favored Souls fans out there, what would be your suggested spell selection for a "casting addict" trying to solo? If in a party with friends at upper levels, would I be able to heal as well as a cleric? Do Favored Souls still get "Auras"?

Mercureal
12-13-2012, 03:36 PM
That's what I was thinking as well. Struggle for the next 5 levels (7-12 because of Veteran) to get to Blade Barrier, but then be able to solo easier the rest of the way.

For Favored Soul, yes they could cast more often, but having been "spoiled" with a Wizard, I fear I would miss the versatility of swapping spells out at will. I also think that they can't wear Heavy Armor, correct? Will I notice the extra damage that I am taking?

For the Favored Souls fans out there, what would be your suggested spell selection for a "casting addict" trying to solo? If in a party with friends at upper levels, would I be able to heal as well as a cleric? Do Favored Souls still get "Auras"?

First, Favoured Souls don't get auras - cleric only. Depending on how much damage you take, a cleric's non-SP healing from bursts and auras can make up for a big chunk of the SP difference.

Second, with the right spell selection, Favoured Souls can definitely heal a party as well as a cleric.

Third, FVS spell selection really depends on what you want to do - they have to pick a few categories of spell type to focus on. For damage spells, at low levels searing light (2) and holy smite (4), at mid levels divine punishment and cometfall (5) and blade barrier (6). For crowd control purposes, greater command (5) and cometfall (6) are the best options - there's symbol of persuasion and symbol of stunning at levels 6 & 7, but the symbol spells are a big finicky and not always reliable. Plus, symbol of persuastion can be annoying when you need to kill all mobs to progress, since it's a charm effect and clerics can't dispel charms. For insta-kills, Destruction and Implosion are your choices, assuming you have the spell penetration at high levels to land them reliably (which goes for the crowd control effects, too.)

You might want to consider buffs, too - Freedom of Movement and Death Ward/Mass are highly valuable. Mass Protection from Elements can be nice, but isn't crucial. Mass Aid is a nice buff and it's only level 3, which doesn't have a lot of good choices anyway. And then your healing/raising spells - the crucial ones for high levels are Mass Heal and Mass Cure Critical. Heal is nice to have for individuals, but it can be cast from scrolls and will still hit for a decent amount if you have Scroll Mastery enhancements and the target has some healing amp. Similarly, you can buy Resurrection and Raise Dead scrolls - it's cheaper to cast them, of course, but a scroll works just as well if you're willing to spend the money and *really* want some of those level 7 spells insytead of Resurrection. The Restoration spells are good for curing negative levels - you can take Restoration at level 4, or Greater Restoration & Mass Restoration at level 7 - they're not requirements either and I'm pretty sure they also come on scrolls.

Kinerd
12-13-2012, 04:50 PM
Although maybe if there is a good summon monsterA what?
and a good hirelingA what?

The fun thing about clonks is if you go to 3 monk levels you can start throwing the Healing curse on monsters, which gives you even more no-thought healing. This is key because the less time you have to devote to healing the more time you can devote to combat. You can also get a very strong Stunning Fist; in a party it will do way more damage than any weapon you could swing, and while soloing can be very handy for self-healing non-bosses.

Clonk AC/PRR is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter if you get hit, because between Aura, hamp, and fists of light you're immortal outside of EE anyway, and in EE you're a smear on the wall anyway.
Is it true that at level 20+, no matter how much I try to boost melee, I'm going to do better (SOLOING) just focusing on spells?Yes, but it's muddier if you allow yourself to use Divine Punishment while meleeing (and why wouldn't you?). Just like with a wizard, your direct damage has a hard time keeping pace with enemy HP, but you have a tougher time than the wizard getting your instant kills up to snuff.

EllisDee37
12-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Why cleric and not fvs? The only reason would be healing aura. Fvs out performs cleric in everyother way. Wings.Clerics get wings from Exalted Angel, which is pretty much a mandatory destiny for caster clerics because it's the only destiny outside of druid that offers wisdom.



Is it true that at level 20+, no matter how much I try to boost melee, I'm going to do better (SOLOING) just focusing on spells?Yep, pretty much.


If this is the case, then a 19/1 Dwarf Cleric/Wizard seems to be the better choice.Human is better still, because no matter what you will be feat-starved.


So if I took the Wizard level at 1, for Master's Touch and a Wizard Feat, and then go Cleric the rest of the way, I could use a Dwarven Axe and Tower Shield for MeleeNo, you'll be better off using a THF weapon (eg: Carnifex) for the early melee levels.

Also, I recommend (as per the build I linked on page 1) taking wizard as your second level: 1 cleric, 2 wizard, 3-20 cleric. That way you can dump int (starting at 8) and use +4 int pots from levels 2-6 just to qualify to cast master's touch. *(From the sound of it you'll be fine using a +3 tome at level 7.) Those pots are ML2, so no need for the wizard level before 2. And you really, really don't want to be a wizard on level 1 with 8 int. heh.


Would this be a character that could solo well to level 20, and maybe even Epic Normal or Epic Hard, on a first life?That's definitely my hope. I'm about to start my wizard past lives first, but then I'll be doing the linked build as written. It's designed to be accessible on a first life for new players, though; maybe you could test it out for me? hehheh.

Regardless what build you use, if you go the caster route, put some care into your feat selection and order. I still say a clonk is nice, but if (like me) you've been spoiled from insta-kills by your pale trapper, you might like a caster cleric even more. Just no evasion, sadly. (Here's that link (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4769168&postcount=40) again, which also details the ending DCs and spell pen. Not great, of course, but I think it will be pretty solid for eHard.)

Persiflage
12-14-2012, 09:08 AM
My capped cleric is (after much soul-searching and beseeching of the forums for advice) a Dwarf 19 Cleric / 1 Wis / 5 Epic, almost identical to the build EllisDee37 posted: currently in GMoF, plodding through destinies to get twists. Tedium City, but that's not the toon's fault. And at least GMoF is giving me Wisdom and a speed boost so it's not all bad ;)

He's a Dwarf solely because he was a Dwarf already and I really didn't want to have another TR on the go. He was initially 19/1 Cleric/Fighter; it's fine up to a point, but there came a point during levelling when my damage output just wasn't up to snuff with D-Axe and shield, and I realised I was doing most of my DPS through Blade Barriers and other spells so I might as well have been a pure caster for all the good I was doing waving a pointy stick around. That's not to say it can't be done well, and I daresay I'd do a much better job of it if I tried again with a couple of years' experience under my belt (not to mention now having maxed crafting and plenty funds to twink with) but I don't think the playstyle's for me.

I LR'd him into a pure cleric ages back (he was my first character, and my second cap), but didn't like that much either. When ED's rolled around - and I'd done all I could with my Artificer, Wizard and Monk - I decided to try and "do something" with him so he could at least solo EH, and the 1-level Wis splash was what I went with.

You know what? It's a great build. Works a treat. Obviously I haven't experienced what it's like levelling the build through 1-20, but speaking from the other end of the line I have to say it's just fine. He's not terribly well-geared (I more-or-less abandoned him entirely after hitting cap so he doesn't even have any greensteel) but he has the Tier III Cavalry Plate, a Wise +8 Helm of the Archmagi, a Mysterious Bauble (on my third run, no less!), a Wall of Wood, a great lootgen dagger (Radiance / Spell Pen IX / Greater Necro Focus) and all the Eveningstar stuff I could fit in, so he does just fine. Even on a first life, his Turn Undead works extremely well (it helps to remember to carry Seek Eternal Rest and craft yourself an Eternal Faith item) and his light damage when in Exalted Angel is very nice indeed. I go through most EH quests needing to use nothing but my aura for heals and can spam spells to my heart's content.

Also, on the hireling front, there IS a useful one when you're at Epic levels... a certain melee hire has recently become my very best friend ;)

I did do one heretical thing with him though: I ditched the Toughness feat in favour of Empower, and it hasn't made a jot of difference to my survivability. I appreciate that this would probably change if I tried to anything other than healbot in EE, but I'm not going there on his first life anyway so it's fine. If (when) I TR him, I'll probably do more-or-less-exactly the same thing but THIS time I'll go human, no question. The +2 to Con is nice, and some of the dwarven enhancements to saves and whatnot are OK, but on the whole I want the extra feat and the healing amp a lot more. The Wizard level is great; things might change in the enhancement pass, but with the current Cleric capstone being so meh (and 9th-level Cleric spell selection being so limited) you are far, far better off with a level of Wizzy. The extra feat is great, the ability to access the first tier of spell damage enhancement lines is also great, and the ability to use arcane wands for Blur and similar without UMD shouldn't be sneezed at either!

How much help this will be to you in selecting a toon to level with, I'm not sure... but I thought I'd share my experiences with some of the builds you're mulling over :)

EDIT: I should probably have added, given some of the other comments in this thread, that I have exactly no trouble at all with instakilling (whether asplodifying or via Necro) on EH. As Kinerd so aptly states, I'd be a smear on the wall in EE anyway, so I don't worry about the fact that my DC's and spell pen don't cut it at that level. All I'm good for in EE is healbot duties, buffing and spamming light spells/Divine Wrath if I'm sure I won't be attracting aggro... but that's OK. If you want a toon that can break spell pen and hit the DC's in EE on a first life, then you probably want to be playing something else ;)

Dingleburr
12-14-2012, 09:28 AM
That's what I was thinking as well. Struggle for the next 5 levels (7-12 because of Veteran) to get to Blade Barrier, but then be able to solo easier the rest of the way.


Content in that level range is still relatively easy. Also, symbol of flame is a poor-man's blade barrier that you can pick up earlier.



For Favored Soul, yes they could cast more often, but having been "spoiled" with a Wizard, I fear I would miss the versatility of swapping spells out at will.


There are fewer good divine spells than arcane spells at each level, so it's much less of an issue.



I also think that they can't wear Heavy Armor, correct? Will I notice the extra damage that I am taking?


The devs played a joke on clerics by giving them heavy armor proficiency. Problem is, virtually all armor slot items geared towards divine casters are medium armor.

rcal13
12-14-2012, 09:55 AM
There are fewer good divine spells than arcane spells at each level, so it's much less of an issue.


As my main is a cleric there is only two spells I swap out and the one is onlygoing to be used till I get favor to get the transpot key to evening star. I can see why this should not be a big deal. There are so few good use alot spells. Just make sure you do your home workand find the ones you really want first.

unbongwah
12-14-2012, 10:02 AM
19/1 Dwarf Cleric/Wizard
My take on the cleric 19 / wiz 1 build (human):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(19 Cleric \ 1 Wizard)
Hit Points: 278
Spell Points: 1379
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 21

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 14
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 16 16
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 18 27
Charisma 8 8

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Spell


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning (swap for Spell Penetration before level 18)


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV


Epic feats: Epic Spell Pen and something else (e.g., GSF:Evo)
Skills: max Concentration and either UMD, Balance, or Spot (non-humans only get Concentration)

WIS-based caster with decent STR: Master's Touch + 2H weapon + Divine Favor + Bull's Str / Divine Power for melee-ing in the early levels; switches to offensive casting at the higher levels. Extra Turning provides 4 more TUs for bursts / auras, which helps out until you've got enough TUs from gear that you don't need it anymore, at which point you swap it for Spell Pen. If you have EDs, primary ED is Exalted Angel; for Twists, that SF:Evo will open up Evocation Specialist (+3 DCs) and Precise Casting:Evo (+1 DC), probably with Piercing Spellcraft (+3 Spell Pen) as third Twist. [If someone has a better ED / Twist config, I'm all ears; still learning how to exploit EDs myself. :)]

One thing I like about this build is it works for any race or # of build pts and it has no special tome or gear requirements (tho obviously the more you can add, the better). Non-humans lose a feat and have to rejigger the order a bit: I would push Empower to lvl 9, Quicken to lvl 12, Heighten to lvl 15, and SF:Evo to lvl 24. 28-pt version: drop CON to 14 or STR to 10; in the long run, extra HPs will be more useful than extra STR, but higher STR helps out early on (better melee DPS, carrying capacity, less likely to be Enfeebled into helplessness). 34- or 36-pt build: can rearrange stats to have max CON, more STR, more INT (extra skill pts), or more CHA (extra TUs).

EDIT: for the truly OCD, the obvious past lives to add would be wiz x3 (+6 Spell Pen), sorc x3 (+3 Evo DCs), FvS x3 (+3 Spell Pen), and maybe cleric x3 (+3 Conj DCs for Deific Vengeance & Cometfall); Arcane Initiate adds another +1 to all DCs.

stefferweffer
12-14-2012, 10:18 AM
OK, I have a 6/1 Cleric/Wiz now (Dwarf). He has both a Tower Shield and Dwarven Axe, or Greataxe (which certainly kills faster).

As this is my first Cleric, here are my three questions so far:

1) I assumed I was "supposed" to go for Radiant Servant, but frankly I'm not that impressed. Should I dump that right now and go for other enhancements instead until I can get Radiant Servant 2? Or should I just abandon Radiant Servant altogether?
2) When do I get these "Auras"? Are they enhancements that I might have missed, or do they come later?
3) I thought that I could cast any Arcane spell in Armor that did not require a physical component to it, but I see that I cannot cast Exp Retreat, Detect Secret Doors, etc in my armor (85% fail rate). Is this a glitch, or am I misunderstanding how to cast those level 1 wizard spells?

Thanks again.

voodoogroves
12-14-2012, 10:53 AM
OK, I have a 6/1 Cleric/Wiz now (Dwarf). He has both a Tower Shield and Dwarven Axe, or Greataxe (which certainly kills faster).

As this is my first Cleric, here are my three questions so far:

1) I assumed I was "supposed" to go for Radiant Servant, but frankly I'm not that impressed. Should I dump that right now and go for other enhancements instead until I can get Radiant Servant 2? Or should I just abandon Radiant Servant altogether?
2) When do I get these "Auras"? Are they enhancements that I might have missed, or do they come later?
3) I thought that I could cast any Arcane spell in Armor that did not require a physical component to it, but I see that I cannot cast Exp Retreat, Detect Secret Doors, etc in my armor (85% fail rate). Is this a glitch, or am I misunderstanding how to cast those level 1 wizard spells?

Thanks again.

The only PRE game in town for Clerics is the Radiant Servant. And yes, you want it (though at 6 it may seem weak).

The aura comes at Cleric 12, so level 13 for you.

It isn't the material component that is hindered by armor (the bits of string, lint and animal parts) but rather the somatic components (the waving around of arms, legs and other appendages). Spells with no somatic component incur no ASF.

Master's Touch: http://ddowiki.com/page/Master%27s_Touch
Components - Verbal, Focus
... no armor spell failure

Merfolk's: http://ddowiki.com/page/Merfolk%27s_Blessing
Components - Verbal, Somatic, Material
... incurs armor spell failure

unbongwah
12-14-2012, 10:58 AM
1) I assumed I was "supposed" to go for Radiant Servant, but frankly I'm not that impressed. Should I dump that right now and go for other enhancements instead until I can get Radiant Servant 2? Or should I just abandon Radiant Servant altogether?
If you are not impressed by your Radiant Bursts, either you did something wrong in your build or your expectations are too high. :) And if you're not using your bursts, make sure you've mapped it to a hotbar (shows up under Enhancements in your char sheet), rt-click on it to turn any metas to "Always On," and experiment with it.

Chaos000
12-14-2012, 11:10 AM
1) I assumed I was "supposed" to go for Radiant Servant, but frankly I'm not that impressed. Should I dump that right now and go for other enhancements instead until I can get Radiant Servant 2? Or should I just abandon Radiant Servant altogether?

One thing to note is that you can toggle metamagic feats for no additional sp cost for radiant servant enhancements. Positive energy burst with Quicken +Empower Heal +Empower +Maximize? AND with Radiant Servant I your turns regenerate? Yes please.



2) When do I get these "Auras"? Are they enhancements that I might have missed, or do they come later?

Radiant servant 2 is where you can expend a turn undead to activate a Positive Energy Aura (1 hit point per 3 caster levels), only Empower Heal metamagic affects this but you can also take enhancements (prayer of life) and items (healing or arcane lore) to boost the passive tick of healing to crit more frequently



3) I thought that I could cast any Arcane spell in Armor that did not require a physical component to it, but I see that I cannot cast Exp Retreat, Detect Secret Doors, etc in my armor (85% fail rate). Is this a glitch, or am I misunderstanding how to cast those level 1 wizard spells?

Arcane spells that do not require a somatic component can be cast while wearing armor without having to deal with arcane chance spell failure.

My recommendation is to use wands and avoid casting via scrolls or spells.

SirValentine
12-14-2012, 01:11 PM
Clerics get wings from Exalted Angel, which is pretty much a mandatory destiny for caster clerics because it's the only destiny outside of druid that offers wisdom.


GMoF offers Wisdom as well, but EA's the only one that offers both caster levels and Wisdom.

SirValentine
12-14-2012, 01:14 PM
The only PRE game in town for Clerics is the Radiant Servant. And yes, you want it (though at 6 it may seem weak).


Weak? Only if you don't run any undead quests. That burst is brutal. Even just as some free healing, it's still worth it.

voodoogroves
12-14-2012, 01:19 PM
Weak? Only if you don't run any undead quests. That burst is brutal. Even just as some free healing, it's still worth it.

My cleric was capped when Radiant Servant came out - I know how well the bursts worked in Mabar, but no direct experience at lower levels ... and while I've run through multiple FVS lives on different toons, never gotten back to cleric.

Soon though, once I get a handle on my "too many TRs at once" problem, cleric is the plan from my poor wizard. Poor guy was the first I ever capped and never TR'd.

stefferweffer
12-14-2012, 01:23 PM
I think tonight I'm going to make a Human Level 7 "Clonk" to play beside this one and see which one I like better.

On a 32 point, first life build, what would you suggest for starting stats and feats (up to level 7), and at what levels would you suggest taking the monk levels? On a related note, since Cleric gets their top spells at 17, might 17/2/1 Cleric Monk Wizard be a good idea, for the extra feat and additional spellpower (and arcane wands and no fail level 1 spells)?

I made a monk before (not for long) and did not like all the apparent clicking involved in getting the martial arts moves down. Is it bad if a "Clonk" just holds down attack instead of doing all the "monkish" stuff, especially since I'll have Cleric clickies occasionally too?

SirValentine
12-14-2012, 01:24 PM
For Favored Soul, yes they could cast more often, but having been "spoiled" with a Wizard, I fear I would miss the versatility of swapping spells out at will.


Favored Soul spell selection is painful while levelling. Not just because they can't swap easily, but because they get so few slots, so slowly, to begin with.

For example, just look at level 2 spells. A Cleric gets 3 level 2 spells when they hit class level 3. A Favored Soul doesn't get that until they hit class level 7! Pretty much the same all the way up, 4 levels behind on spell slots.

SirValentine
12-14-2012, 01:27 PM
For crowd control purposes, greater command (5) and cometfall (6) are the best options - there's symbol of persuasion and symbol of stunning at levels 6 & 7


Don't forget Soundburst and Hold Person, both available at much lower levels.



For insta-kills, Destruction and Implosion are your choices


Slay Living, Destruction's kid brother is great, too. Dismissal, Banishment, and Undeath to Death are all nice situationally.

Mercureal
12-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Don't forget Soundburst and Hold Person, both available at much lower levels.

Slay Living, Destruction's kid brother is great, too. Dismissal, Banishment, and Undeath to Death are all nice situationally.

True, but I wouldn't take any of those permanently on a FVS. Soundburst is good at low levels, but surpasssed by the ones I mentioned, and Hold Person is single target and limited to humanoids, not really worth the spell slot in my opinion.

Slay Living might be worthwhile before you can get Destruction, but definitely should be swapped out once you do. And the others, I think, are too situational. All good to use for a cleric when needed, but too limited in use for a FVS to devote one of their few spell spots. All in my opinion, of course.


I made a monk before (not for long) and did not like all the apparent clicking involved in getting the martial arts moves down. Is it bad if a "Clonk" just holds down attack instead of doing all the "monkish" stuff, especially since I'll have Cleric clickies occasionally too?

If you're splashing a few monks levels for melee, you really only get a benefit from using at least some of the "monkish stuff". Just beating on them with your fists for a few points of damage isn't going to do too much - at a bare minimum, you should take Stunning Fist and click on that every 6 seconds or so. The Cleric clickies are a bit longer in duration too, generally a minute or more in length, so won't require a whole lot of repeated clicking.

Kinerd
12-14-2012, 04:16 PM
I think tonight I'm going to make a Human Level 7 "Clonk" to play beside this one and see which one I like better.

On a 32 point, first life build, what would you suggest for starting stats and feats (up to level 7), and at what levels would you suggest taking the monk levels? On a related note, since Cleric gets their top spells at 17, might 17/2/1 Cleric Monk Wizard be a good idea, for the extra feat and additional spellpower (and arcane wands and no fail level 1 spells)?I liked cleric 1, monk 3, rest cleric, but I was only running it in guild, it's probably not pug-friendly. If you're only going to 2 monk, it would make more sense to delay the second level longer, at least until past cleric level 9.
I made a monk before (not for long) and did not like all the apparent clicking involved in getting the martial arts moves down. Is it bad if a "Clonk" just holds down attack instead of doing all the "monkish" stuff, especially since I'll have Cleric clickies occasionally too?The only monk buttons you really should hit are Fists of Light and Stunning Fist. Healing ki is okay pre-Aura, the SP reducer from water light water is nice before buffing, everything else you can ignore completely. If you don't have fists of light, ignore every monk button but SF.

EllisDee37
12-15-2012, 01:44 AM
Agreed with the others, the only "critical" monk clickie is stunning fist. That's because the stun DC is based off your wisdom modifier, which as a cleric should be nicely uber. (18 starting, all levelups.)

As for the level split, 17 vs 18 vs 19 cleric levels is all about high level spells because the capstone itself is kind of meh. Focusing primarily on level 9 spells, here's the breakdown of how many you get:

5 with 20 cleric levels
4 with 19 cleric levels
3 with 18 cleric levels
2 with 17 cleric levels
0 with 16 cleric levels

There are only five level 9 spells, meaning a pure cleric gets them all. You then sacrifice one of them every level you splash. Here are the five:

Heal, Mass
Required for raid healing, useful in quests

True Resurrection
Once you use this spell during combat you'll probably never go back to any other raise spell. This one brings characters back at 100% health, meaning it's fire and forget. The next best one brings them back at 50%, so if you go with that instead you have to fire off a heal right after your raise.

Summon Monster IX
Meh. It's a summon. Easily losable, especially if you just use the 8th level version instead if you happen to be summon-oriented as a player.

Implosion
The signature cleric spell, I would say this is 100% required. It would be like running a pale master without wail.

Energy Drain
Incredibly useful, I wouldn't want to run without it. Particularly since your destruction DCs will be behind a pale master's finger of death. Energy drain helps to close that gap.


Of those five spells, I very much want to keep four of them loaded at all times. This limits me to 19/1 build concepts. I suppose I could have two loadouts, keeping energy drain for soloing/duoing and mass heal for raids, so I could live with 18/2 (clonk) but it would annoy me a little. Not enough to worry about, though. At 17/3 I'd have to lose true rez, and that would hurt but would at least still be functional.

SirValentine
12-15-2012, 06:19 AM
True, but I wouldn't take any of those permanently on a FVS. Soundburst is good at low levels, but surpasssed by the ones I mentioned, and Hold Person is single target and limited to humanoids, not really worth the spell slot in my opinion.

Slay Living might be worthwhile before you can get Destruction, but definitely should be swapped out once you do. And the others, I think, are too situational. All good to use for a cleric when needed, but too limited in use for a FVS to devote one of their few spell spots. All in my opinion, of course.


Why would you want to lose Slay Living? Separate cooldown from Destruction, means twice as much killing. I'd even claim it's better for a FvS than a (non-EA-winged) Clr, because of the beautiful synergy with wings.

As for Sound Burst, it's not surpassed. It's your only AOE Fort-save CC spell. Cometfall for Ref, Greater Command for Will, Soundburst for Fort.

As for Hold Person, you might have noticed that U14+ content is full of persons. You can't just insta-kill those orange-named, but Hold Person works wonders.

I took and used all of those my FvS life, and will again when I get back to a caster FvS.

Banishment & Undeath to Death are, as I said, situational, and would probably never be taken by a FvS, just swap-ins for Clr as needed.