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Zamzi
12-07-2012, 03:47 PM
I've heard GH epic won't have the shard/seal/scroll system for making epics, and the devs have also allowed sands scrolls to be exchanged for other sands scrolls at a 3/1 ratio. How about if all scrolls/seals/shards could be exchanged the same way. Drops on these items have been rediculously low for 2 years now. Speaking personally I've been farming EH small problem for 3 weeks 2-5 times daily for a ring of elemental essences seal. Still no drop. I have scads of the other seals, which I'll NEVER use btw, clogging bags. I can't trade them to someone who might use them, which is also effing moronic. Admit your failures Turbine, I mean they're so common now what's the loss? You're already the punchline of half the jokes on the Sarlona, I've got to imagine it's the same elsewhere. Admitting when you fail and attempting to rectify poor systems will go a LONG way towards making the player base (the source of your salaries BTW, something you seem to have LONG forgotten) respect you. I'm being careful not to hurt your feelings, since saying anything bad about Turbine apparently makes you cry and have to ban someone, but this is long overdue. Either makes seals and shards tradable between players, or make them exchangable at epic vendor like sands scrolls please.

Munkenmo
12-07-2012, 04:10 PM
honestly, i've got no problem with seals / shards & scrolls being rare commodities.

I wish they'd change ebberon crafting to a tiered system though where any 2/3 items will upgrade your base item to epic, and once you get the last piece the slots are applied.

Regarding stuff not being tradeable, I'm ok with that too, I like the mix between buying EE items we have now, and being required to actually play and get your own loot.

Zamzi
12-07-2012, 04:18 PM
I could almost agree. IF the loot tables weren't hopelessly broken. NOTHING should take 100+ runs to get. At least put counters on epic quests for seals shards etc, instead of worthless vendor trash.

Zamzi
12-07-2012, 04:19 PM
And scrolls shards seals rare? I've got 5 bags brimming, with the ones NO ONE wants

pyntsized
12-07-2012, 05:15 PM
turbine could make a 20th run mechanic for epic quests. 20th run gives you a list of all seals or shards for that quest (depending what it drops). At least then 100 runs wouldn't happen to get a single seal.

far2stinkie
12-07-2012, 05:56 PM
/signed please do something about this joke of a system or assign massive ingred bags as a fvr reward. BTW being able to buy epic named loot from packs you dont own isn't going to make you guys and coin.

Grottie

Fefnir_2011
12-07-2012, 06:19 PM
IMO:

The intent of the seal/shard/scroll system was making it take a long period of time to complete rare items, while still having a feeling of progressing towards your goal from being able to make other items along the way. However, here's the crux of the problem for many players: You can statistically run the same quest series for years and never see the ingredients you need. "Oh, but that's incredibly rare" says some developer. However, the RNG sucks and isn't truly random, so player after player gets frustrated and DDO loses the fun factor because they've run VoN6 thousands of times and never seen their shard.

Maybe a 3:1 turn-in isn't the best solution. But there has to be a better way than questioning your sanity because of ludicrously rare drop rates. I know that every time I get frustrated over epic gear, I play another game for a while that's more emotionally fulfilling. And that's not good for Turbine's economy when players do that.

Allorian
12-07-2012, 09:25 PM
The seal shard scroll system needs fixed, and I think a turn in is an awesome idea! C'mon guys think about it, grinds can be numbing at times, there are the highes when you get that shard or seal to drop but running a quest everyday for over a year is a bit much. Lets get creative, does anyone have any ideas how to fix this?


Glam, Juggernautte, Choh, Allorian, BammmBammm, Slliimm and Bubahhotep.

Zamzi
12-08-2012, 06:08 PM
Okay guys. I ran a check. With a .002% drop rate on epic spell storing shard, you would have to run 1.4 MILLION epic Demon Queens to have a better than 50% chance of having an epic spell storing ring. THAT is effing ridiculous, what moron at turbine hasn't addressed this issue. And Turbine wonders why 1 in 3 of your employees are job hunting this christmas. Listen to your customer base, veterans dropping off the servers like plague victims.

nibel
12-08-2012, 06:15 PM
And scrolls shards seals rare? I've got 5 bags brimming, with the ones NO ONE wants

When I get a set for something no one will ever want, I'll farm the base item if it is doable (like P and D items), craft the epic version, and vendor it. At least, I get some plat out of the seal/shards.

Zamzi
12-09-2012, 12:20 PM
As far as I go, I won't pay another dime to Turbine. I strongly encourage others who are tired of Turbine's lack of concern for their player bases wishes. Make them hurt by taking money out of their pockets. Cancel your sub if you have enough points to buy packs, stop buying points when you don't really need them. When they see their income drop, maybe they'll wake up and see they work or US, it's OUR wishes that should dictate how this game works, NOT theirs. Turbine has made a point of giving the player base the finger when it comes to fixing bugs, and known serious issues with loot tables, so let's flip them the bird right back. Maybe when Fernando Piaz can't get a job running a facebook app, his replacement will realize, WE are his bosses.

zarthak
12-09-2012, 12:26 PM
i agree to up the RoSS shard drop rate to at least the Sos shard level. i say yes to the scroll/shard upgrade but NOT for the sos shard/thornlord shard/Ross shard those are rare for a reason, there Over-powered/

dodger72
12-09-2012, 12:47 PM
I like how they're doing the new "epic" items. Complete epic normal...get an epic-normal item, same for hard and elite.

Turbine...how about you do the same for these older quests? In other words...all the stuff that drops in the sands....also place it in some of the quests; that way when we complete an epic normal or hard or elite, we can get those items as already Epic. OR give the option for Epic Explorers in those areas that drop such loot.

Like the OP, I have bags and bags full of seals/shards (and scrolls) that I don't have either the main piece of equipment, or am missing one of the ingredients, or I'll never use because no one wanted it.

I think it's time to upgrade all these old quests to match with what you are doing now...and recompense the players that have ground and ground for items with payback for those useless shards/seals/scrolls because the drop system is bloody low.

Either way, make it worth running the older epics besides for xp.

Nachomammashouse
12-10-2012, 03:47 AM
turbine could make a 20th run mechanic for epic quests. 20th run gives you a list of all seals or shards for that quest (depending what it drops). At least then 100 runs wouldn't happen to get a single seal.

20th run mechanics or upping the drop rates would be nice. I'm at 200-300 EDQ runs and have never seen shards of ring of spell storing or firestorm greaves drop for anyone :-( Something needs to change; tradeable/exchangeable/whatever. it's broken as it is.

lronEnema
12-10-2012, 04:11 AM
Okay guys. I ran a check. With a .002% drop rate on epic spell storing shard, you would have to run 1.4 MILLION epic Demon Queens to have a better than 50% chance of having an epic spell storing ring. THAT is effing ridiculous, what moron at turbine hasn't addressed this issue. And Turbine wonders why 1 in 3 of your employees are job hunting this christmas. Listen to your customer base, veterans dropping off the servers like plague victims.

On epic hard the drop rate in ADQ2 for an explorer area shard is 2%. Assuming the same probability distribution as to which from the old epic ADQ2 posted here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=326299 that makes the probability of getting a RoSS shard at .01%. Unfortuntately this makes the '1.4 million runs to have a 50% chance' a nonsense. At 7000 runs you have a 50% chance. 1.4 million is out by a factor of 200. That's good going even for these boards.

Even given the sum is better, it is weay too many runs for too low a chance IMO. But please don't indulge in math abuse to prove a point. It weakens your argument.

Edited to change shard drop rate and resulting calculation

lronEnema
12-10-2012, 04:17 AM
Incidentally, even if the drop rate were 0.002%, at 30,000 you would have a 46% chance of having got one. 1.4 million is out by a factor of 50ish.

danzig138
12-10-2012, 09:18 AM
I can understand why they aren't tradable between characters, even if I don't agree. I also don't see that as a huge deal. This, on the other hand,
make them exchangable at epic vendor like sands scrolls please. is an idea I absolutely endorse. Even if at a crappy 3 for 1 rate, being able to trade epic mats in for ones you want is a great idea. Because you've still ground the heck out things for those useless-to-you materials.

lronEnema
12-10-2012, 09:35 AM
I can understand why they aren't tradable between characters, even if I don't agree. I also don't see that as a huge deal. This, on the other hand, is an idea I absolutely endorse. Even if at a crappy 3 for 1 rate, being able to trade epic mats in for ones you want is a great idea. Because you've still ground the heck out things for those useless-to-you materials.

Just so we're clear - a 3 to 1 exchange rate on seals, shards and scrolls will mean that just about every character ends up with an epic ring of spell storing, (I have two base items I could epic tomorrow) epic Sword of Shadows (got one base in the bank) etc.

Very bad effect on game balance.

Some things should be very rare - though not unreasonably rare. I would be in favour of upping the drop rate of seals and shards by some amount (not thought how much) but definitely ot a 3:1 exchange without significant other changes

Allorian
12-10-2012, 10:15 AM
I dunno, anyone thats been around fer a few yrs that has ground out epics, has a lot of epic stuff. After 400 EV6 runs I got 3 ESOS's, and tons of other items from that raid. I think I lost count at 100 epic items between 5 toons before UD14. I've completed the DQ raid at least 150 times and the drop rates are dismall compared to EV6, I dont think I have any DQ raid items epic'd that I wanted to get. Talk about bags and bags of junk! Concern over game balance is not as warranted as it was a year ago when the old epics were the only ones to get decent loot from. The new loot is very powerful and very easy to get! If people could get ESSR's and ESOS fer thier toons, I think it would be a good thing. Those items are not nearly as overpowering as they once were. If you look at ED's they can skyrocket the power curve of a toon by 25th Lvl. I believe that those old items would be nice to have, not overpowering as they once were when we take ED's into account. Turbine just needs to fix the old system so its updated to at least match the drops of the new system. If it were fixed tommorrow I would probably be able to make another 30-50 items, not that i would as some are not worth the effort anymore other than vending. but the old system is clearly broken and needs some kind of fix.

BTW, I believe the OP was not trying to put an exact number on the times of completing EDQ, just emphasizing that it is nearly impossible to get the Shard in question. I.E..a million completions...

Thx
Glam, Juggernautte, Choh, Alllorian, BammmBammm, Slliimm and Bubbahhotep

Zamzi
12-10-2012, 06:25 PM
Regardless of my poor math skills, and even with a 1% drop rate for shards, there are what 30 epic items in sands. How many are actually desirable? I can think of 4. Mari Chain, SS ring, Torc and Chaosblade. The rest are utter ****. Totally worthless. How many people you know who say, my GOD I must have an epic coronation shield/vulkoorim robe or any of the other garbage ******** professes to be worthy of months/years of grinding. Also how many party's you see up for sands epics. My guess: NEXT THING TO 0. The supposed 1% drop rate becomes irrelevant when perhaps 10% of sands items aren't worthless drivel. So I'll put it in Forrest Gump terms: Sands loots are like a box of chocolates where 99 out of 100 are dogturds. You're never sure what you're gonna get, but you're pretty sure it's going to be excrement.

Munkenmo
12-11-2012, 03:07 AM
Regardless of my poor math skills, and even with a 1% drop rate for shards, there are what 30 epic items in sands. How many are actually desirable? I can think of 4. Mari Chain, SS ring, Torc and Chaosblade. The rest are utter ****. Totally worthless.

I'll see your 4 items

And I call

Thornlord
Lionheaded belt buckle
Bracers of the Demons Consort
green blade

Zamzi
12-11-2012, 04:22 PM
I call your bluff. All 4 of those items are outdated at best. YAY thornlord has a 19-20 crit rate. Bow of Sinew has that, and a x4 modifier and it's ML16. The Epic Greenblade? Trash when compared to skiver, which is easy to get and ML14. Lion Headed Buckle? Sounds good until you realize improved roaring does 0 for your dps, ooooh enemies shaken.... eff that. Demon Consort Bracers. I'm sure that small chance of cause moderate wounds is so powerful, or is it the curse effect? Yeah curse is uber at level 20, or could it be the 30 measly HP it's gives? that'll absorb almost 1/5 of an epic mob hit.

Munkenmo
12-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I call your bluff. All 4 of those items are outdated at best. YAY thornlord has a 19-20 crit rate. Bow of Sinew has that, and a x4 modifier and it's ML16. The Epic Greenblade? Trash when compared to skiver, which is easy to get and ML14. Lion Headed Buckle? Sounds good until you realize improved roaring does 0 for your dps, ooooh enemies shaken.... eff that. Demon Consort Bracers. I'm sure that small chance of cause moderate wounds is so powerful.

It's no bluff, I'm definately not sitting on 4aces, I'd say a pair of kings atleast though.

Do you have a palemaster? The consort bracers, and the shaken effect from the lion headed belt buckle are extremely useful and work incredibly well together.

Do the math, and you'd understand the 1[w], +3 modifier, and red slot the epic thornlord has over the sinew do for most builds, make it the better choice.

Also I'm glad you still like your skiver, I remember being impressed when I was starting out by your dual wielding of them. The skiver is still great for levels 14-20, but there are also much scepters from the madness chain now.

The epic greenblade offers most of what the skiver does though, and spell pen ix, making it a nice alternative, definately not the best item in the world, but it's not trash either.

LordMond63
12-11-2012, 07:37 PM
While a part of me (the greedy, impatient part) would love to see the 20th completion mechanic extended to all Epic quests, I agree that it would lead to making items that are truly powerful- dare I say, "Epic"?- as common as +1 daggers.

What I think I'd rather see would be the inclusion of the possibility of scrolls, seals and shards being a end reward choice for each Epic (add it to the loot tables), with a higher chance for, say, the 3rd, 5th or some other periodic run. For the 20th, guarantee one of the "rare" seals or shards drops (obviously, while all seals, scrolls and shards are 'rare', some are more rare than others- those would be the ones I'm talking about).

I'm also supportive, though less so, of a trade-in mechanism. Pretty much any change would be a positive.

Zamzi
12-11-2012, 08:05 PM
It's irrelevant how they change it to me. Nothing should take more than 100 tries to get. I think that covers things being rare. Who (other than the one naysayer) thinks running something 500+ times is fun. Sorry but a quest loses it's shine after about 20. At 100 you feel like you're bashing your head against the wall. At 1000 it starts to seem pointless. I'm at roughly 1500 over 14 lives (that's EATDQ not the raid), that's beyond insane.

Munkenmo
12-11-2012, 08:33 PM
It's irrelevant how they change it to me. Nothing should take more than 100 tries to get. I think that covers things being rare. Who (other than the one naysayer) thinks running something 500+ times is fun.

I offered an idea that would make epic crafting with seals / shards and scrolls 1 third easier. After the 2 years I spent trying to get a kyosho ring, you're well aware of what my opinion is on grind, don't call me a naysayer simply because you're too caught in your own opinions and gloss over wider perspectives.

That doesn't change the fact that I think some things should remain rare, if we can get everything we want within 2 months (assuming raids and no bypasses, for a 20th) what is left?

Zamzi
12-12-2012, 11:25 AM
We aren't talking 2 months. I've been grinding that shard for 3 years. I think I've paid my fokking dues. We aren't talking rare or hard to get. We're talking nigh impossible. That's beyond ********.

Miow
12-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Le sigh. Can't please everyone.

My personal opinion is most things are easier to get than ever in the game, encompassing the whole of the loot table into this trend might hurt the game in the long run.

I might be wrong but i might also be right.

slarden
12-13-2012, 07:40 AM
/signed.

There is less incentive for newer players to buy the old content and it's harder to find people to group with for those quests. Those quests need to be made more appealing. Irmproving some of the worthless gear and not requiring so much grinding to get items would be beneficial.

The primary issue is the raids where you have a 3 day timer and there are fewer of the old raids hosted than there used to be. Also, alot of the vets that have all the gear don't run it as much so I see much less passing of shards/seals than I saw prior to U14.

GrimGus
12-14-2012, 06:21 AM
/signed: fix the method to obtaining epic items. grinding a quest sucks, if it has to be more then 10 times its absurd. I would like to see the bta for seals and shards go away as well.