PDA

View Full Version : Fix the Combat System



danzig138
11-30-2012, 09:15 AM
You guys have to realize that the changes you made to the attack and defense system were poorly designed and implemented by now. Having ran 3E for a long time, I'm the first to admit that there are problems when it comes to offense outpacing defense in the core system. Your changes have not altered that. They've simply made AC less meaningful than before, while adding in several unnecessary and poorly implemented defensive features that need to be tracked.

It would be much easier to revert to the old system, and then simply implement a class-based Defensive Bonus (call it a class bonus for stacking purposes) to AC, similar to that provided in Unearthed Arcana. If you insist on retaining this whole new dodge feature, you'd be better off making it a skill (and bumping all class skill points by +1 per level), modified by armor type. That way, you could retain your dodge feature, your PRR feature (which needs work), while keeping the basic system as it should be.

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 09:20 AM
The Abomination of Moander (aka the combat change) has not grown on me since it was implemented.

Throwing out the d20 is so non-3E D&D it's not even funny.

It was self-admittedly a rushed job, and it shows.

It broke more stuff than it fixed.

So here's my vote for banishing the Abomination of Moander: /SIGNED.

Ape_Man
11-30-2012, 09:21 AM
I think this ship has sailed and these changes are permanent. Most of us are on the "acceptance" phase by now.

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 09:23 AM
I think this ship has sailed and these changes are permanent. Most of us are on the "acceptance" phase by now.

I'm afraid that you may be right. But I still retain a tiny spark of hope that reason might prevail.

Optimism is a sure recipe for disappointment, though.

Doomcrew
11-30-2012, 09:37 AM
I believe that every MMO suffers from power creep and DDO is
no exception. The effects of power creep on a d20 system are
game braking, either you build for top percentile AC or you ignore
it.

The system from before was just as broken as that which we have
now. Several forum regulars offered up fairly good "adjustments"
to the old system that may have allowed for an all around good
game play. As it stands, the more the "creep" the less PnP/DnD we
hang on to.

I also am in the acceptance stage..... what comes next I most likely
will accept in time as well.

Ape_Man
11-30-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm afraid that you may be right. But I still retain a tiny spark of hope that reason might prevail.

Optimism is a sure recipe for disappointment, though.

Truthfully though it doesn't play out as bad as it looks on paper, at least for high-level play as I haven't TR'd anything with any AC since U14 so I cannot comment on low-level play. But in high-level play it's fine. You can get abo0ut the same defense you got before in HE-EH that you could get in non-epics and a little defense is still nice in EE.

The stacking dodge/incorporeal/blur(or displacement)/and PRR give many toons defensive options in Epic Elite where they previously didn't have any. Then again the mobs in EE hit so firggin hard it's arguable that no ground was gained but I digress.

I LIKE the divorcing dodge from AC. Stacking dodge bonuses BROKE Armor Class. They really did and moving this to a second die-roll un-breaks much of that.

I LIKE that armors themselves are better and you don't have to splash monk anymore to get decent defense. I spashed monk because it was the best option on my fighter/rogue/ranger/paladin (depending on what life), not because I had a Bruce Lee fetish. I'll have to admit that as much as I liked having 100 AC on a pally while TWFing in pajamas (pre-U14 when 100 AC actually meant something) it was extremely stupid that my friend's fighter in HEAVY ARMOR AND A TOWER SHIELD had lower AC. Much of that was the stacking dodge bonuses mentioned above.

I LIKE PRR. It's a good system and works pretty well. I do wish it was a little easier for the martial classes to get more as non-defenders but the system itself is sound. It's nice that no matter what your armor helps you a little, and fighters running around in robes was always a little bit dumb.

I DON'T LIKE that the extra accessories (Abishia set, having +7 prot over +5, +6 Natural armor, etc . . .) don't matter anymore. a few points of AC used to make a huge difference, now not at all. It was fun trying to fit 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag and getting defensive toons a little extra edge. Now your ED, PRE, and basic armor/shield are really the only thing that matters.

i DON'T LIKE the massive diminishing returns of the to-hjit formula and that in EE content the mob to-hits are so absurdly high (guessing CRx3 instead of CRx2) that AC there really doesn't matter anyway. Since you cannot get a 95% miss anyway with this formula why is a +140 to-hit really needed?

I think it's savable, I think it's workable, I would have kept the D20 but I understand why they didn't, I just think it needs some tweaks.

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 09:49 AM
Truthfully though it doesn't play out as bad as it looks on paper

Well, I disagree.

Stat choices have been rendered less interesting. Going for to hit is silly, since that +1 or even +2 you might get works out to... nothing, really.

Putting on a level 1 armor in EE will give you (nearly) the same defense as putting on a level 22 one. AC is still not working great in EE for all but the most heavily AC-invested, so the PRR is just about the defense you'll get.

Oops, we forgot mithril.

Oops, we forgot hide armor.

There were a lot of other suggestions out there on how to deal with the AC problem, but Turbine listened to none of them, and threw this ad-hoc system in the game.

No, I'm still not convinced it's good. Savable? Maybe, but it'll take a LOT of work, that's for sure.

cforce
11-30-2012, 09:56 AM
Danzig, you'd probably get more traction by being more specific in your critique of the new system than by calling for a rollback without specific justification. My opinion is that, while there are some problems in the new system (marginalized to-hit value), there are far fewer than there were for the old system ("hey, that guy's actually using a shield! What a noob!")

I'd agree with most of Ape_Man's assessment of what's working and what needs a little bit more tweaking. Things that give small AC adjustments need to be biggered a bit, and to-hit needs to be made more relevant for players. Arguably, Monk tanks should be given a route to get slightly more Dodge than the current cap to give them a thematically appropriate way to compete with high-PRR tanks. The current system can certainly be tuned to these goals without an overhaul.

But, I'm (a) considering builds with armor and shields again, (b) actually thinking about spending equipment slots on defense for my casters and healers. Both of these are pretty huge wins, and I'd be loathe to seen them rolled back.

cforce
11-30-2012, 10:03 AM
Putting on a level 1 armor in EE will give you (nearly) the same defense as putting on a level 22 one. AC is still not working great in EE for all but the most heavily AC-invested, so the PRR is just about the defense you'll get.


There is far more to the game than EE.

Level 1 vs. at-level armor will make a huge difference at other levels, and at other difficulties -- and will make a meaningful difference in some EE content for hard-core tank builds.

Maybe the new system doesn't make armor level relevant in every quest at every difficulty level at every character level, but the new system makes it relevant in *way* more contexts than it was before.

Ape_Man
11-30-2012, 10:04 AM
Well, I disagree.

Stat choices have been rendered less interesting. Going for to hit is silly, since that +1 or even +2 you might get works out to... nothing, really.

Agreed, I forgot about mentioning stats because now your stats really don't mention. I have 3 Epic Moron helms now shelved because that stat-just doesn't matter anymore on people it didn't and now there's no point at all in trying to squeeze out that extra point or 4 of DEX.

Agreed, it was nice when your stats mattered, now they do now. That said the only Melee I've ever seen solo EE DA was a finesse-built halfling.



Putting on a level 1 armor in EE will give you (nearly) the same defense as putting on a level 22 one. AC is still not working great in EE for all but the most heavily AC-invested, so the PRR is just about the defense you'll get.

That's not true. Defenders with "real" defender AC and gear will see more than 5% misses in EE. Your ARMOR actually CAN matter. Your accessories on the other hand really do not.



Oops, we forgot mithril.

Oops, we forgot hide armor.

You're picking nits. But yes, metal types should make a comeback.




There were a lot of other suggestions out there on how to deal with the AC problem, but Turbine listened to none of them, and threw this ad-hoc system in the game..

Hey, they took one of my suggestions so I can never say they don't listen to us (Tempest Shield of Whirling Steel getting some PRR).

This whole revamp was from them LISTENING TO US. We may not have gotten the results we wanted but it was a response to people complaining about a broken system.



No, I'm still not convinced it's good. Savable? Maybe, but it'll take a LOT of work, that's for sure.

All I know is I was still about to do the stuff I could before with about the same level of defense and in the hardest stuff in the game I'm actually able to get a little defense when previously I had none at all.

I was an angry butt-hurt nerd-raging lunatic when I first saw these changes presented to us, but they just don't play out in game nearly as bad as they look on paper. Yes, I had to do some re-gearing to adapt, my splash-tank now wears armor and uses a shield more often than before, but from my actual observations in game it's worked out well.

Question for you . .. assuming scrapping the whole system and going back is not an option . . . if you could change 1 thing with the current system what would it be?

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 10:07 AM
Question for you . .. assuming scrapping the whole system and going back is not an option . . . if you could change 1 thing with the current system what would it be?

Hmm. Getting to hit to matter somehow again. Not sure how to tweak the system to do that, but atm it's pretty silly.

Ape_Man
11-30-2012, 10:19 AM
Hmm. Getting to hit to matter somehow again. Not sure how to tweak the system to do that, but atm it's pretty silly.

Really? That's the "issue?" That we have "too easy" of a time hitting mobs?

This is like Turbine always fixing the bugs the benefits players first :)

While I took a lot of pride in getting my toons great to-hit and never missing I cannot imagine no longer having to worry about that being a problem.

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 10:22 AM
Really? That's the "issue?" That we have "too easy" of a time hitting mobs?

This is like Turbine always fixing the bugs the benefits players first :)

While I took a lot of pride in getting my toons great to-hit and never missing I cannot imagine no longer having to worry about that being a problem.

The issue is that building for to hit (or using stats for AC) is pointless, the gain is too marginal.

To hit? Use a proficient weapon, and you're more or less set.

AC? Be a defender, and you're set.

There's no stat building involved, the gain s´from stats are so marginal that you might as well put them in CHA for better UMD.

Ape_Man
11-30-2012, 10:45 AM
There's no stat building involved, the gain s´from stats are so marginal that you might as well put them in CHA for better UMD.

While starting with 18 STR on say a bard isn't important anymore (I never started with more than 16 anyway) that's simply not true. You're to-hit stat is still your damage stat and pushing that up as much as possible still happens.

But you're right about finding some way of making your actual stats more meaningful, I just can't come up with a specific.

Phemt81
11-30-2012, 11:19 AM
The Abomination of Moander

What is Moander?

Dandonk
11-30-2012, 11:21 AM
What is Moander?

A pile of trash :)

obscure.jester
11-30-2012, 12:05 PM
i have played paper D&D for ages and i thought the new system started in 3E was a good one compared to the thac0.
the problem occurred here in ddo with the implement of dodge% is in my opinion an attempt to correct a mistake, turned out with a bigger mistake.
in paper dnd the AC combat system works well enough to have people playing with fun and balance.
ddo kept that system for a while but unbalanced it making foes totally out of that scale.
easy sample: as long as i played pen and paper, the tarrasque was the biggest, strongest and most ridiculously powerful opponent one could ever face (and indeed monster manual stated clearly "there is only one tarrasque existing per age and we encourage DM dont to use it unless for uber epic purposes once in a lifetime")
this near impossible to kill thing had a to hit +50 and tens of thousands HP.
in ddo there are trash mobs with to hit +100 and more HP, bosses with hundreds of thousands HP immune to everything, even to be tripped or stunned, making player's AC meaningless.
the solution was simple: keep D&D as D&D, where BAB is same of handbook and AC is meaningful even under 100.
somehow, they went for the other path, adding this dodge% and such.
i like the PRR thing, is very realistic in concept. being things like this at the moment, i suggest to keep the actual system but modifying the scale.

- reducing mobs BAB.
will make AC more meaningful and some foes less ridiculous.

- making PRR more similar to DR than -dmg%
would be easier to keep track and doing one's maths about it.

- investing more resources on dodge% and creating some dodge feats for appropriate classes (monks, rogues, barbs, bards...) to work as defensive stances with a -X to hit and +X% dodge, bringing the cap to 50% if unarmored.
sample: uncanny dodge as rage, duration based on DEX. when active, one gets -5 to hit, halved dmg and +(2)X% dodge where X is toon's level. charges per rest as rage. usable only with light armor or no armor.
or keep uncanny dodge as it is but reduce cooldown. i mean, my monk lev 14 can sustain with minimum effort (one click) a permanent shadowfade and an epic rogue or barb has to wait 2 minutes before remembering how to duck when a sword swings at their face?

dng242
11-30-2012, 03:57 PM
But, I'm (a) considering builds with armor and shields again, (b) actually thinking about spending equipment slots on defense for my casters and healers. Both of these are pretty huge wins, and I'd be loathe to seen them rolled back.

I agree, that is a win for the current system. This gives us some reasonable options vs the 1 or 2 we had before.



in paper dnd the AC combat system works well enough to have people playing with fun and balance.

ddo kept that system for a while but unbalanced it making foes totally out of that scale.

The AC system in D&D works well enough to about level 10 - 15. After that is fails just like DDO. The system uses a D20. You just can't get around that unless you have a DM that controls gear really well.

DDO did make foes overpowered... to match our overpowered toons. It's just inflation to keep people happy I guess.

CaptainSpacePony
11-30-2012, 08:09 PM
Well, although it has its faults, I much prefer the new system to the old. I am proud Turbine took the bold step and abandoned the archaic system.

sirgog
11-30-2012, 08:30 PM
Well, although it has its faults, I much prefer the new system to the old. I am proud Turbine took the bold step and abandoned the archaic system.

This.

The whole 'AC is for levels 1-12 only' was a disaster yet with a d20 system there was no real alternative.

Even adding grazing hits wasn't enough to un-break the system.

Now players can carry more DPS-oriented armor for use some of the time, and more defensive-oriented armor (+7 planeforged of omniscience, +7 primal planeforged) for times they want that instead.

shadereaper33
11-30-2012, 09:22 PM
Under the old system, I stopped caring about AC around gianthold or so, on every single one of my characters. Now, I care about AC on most of characters all the way up to cap. Granted, I don't run EE quests, so I don't have any reference for how the system plays out on that setting, but it seems to work pretty well on every other difficulty setting. I'd call that a win. Sure, there is room for improvement, but the same can be said for just about everything in this game.

Ape_Man
12-01-2012, 11:31 AM
This.

The whole 'AC is for levels 1-12 only' was a disaster yet with a d20 system there was no real alternative.

Even adding grazing hits wasn't enough to un-break the system.

Now players can carry more DPS-oriented armor for use some of the time, and more defensive-oriented armor (+7 planeforged of omniscience, +7 primal planeforged) for times they want that instead.

The new armor and the divorce of dodge from AC would have accomplished the same thing. The bastardization of the to-hit formulas was NOT needed.