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Ryan220
11-30-2012, 04:09 AM
Just a quick question.

Im talking general questing and not Raids btw

As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.

Im usually busy up front with the hitters with my Aura up and using bursts for healing when this happens and invariably the Sorc is out of range or around a corner so I waste a heal on them


I normally try to keep every party member healed, but sometimes those Fleshies just dont play smart and require constant attention away from the core healing - as someone on the forum once said "you spank it, you tank it"


Should I go out of my way to heal Fleshie Sorcs and AMs or do I let the Darwinian process take its course?


I think I didnt sleep well as Im feeling grumpy this morning.

Aons
11-30-2012, 04:57 AM
I would heal whoever needs to.

Concerning Agro, it can be a mistake, a bad luck or just stupid. I will of course help in the 2 first cases and help in the third only if the rest of the group will not suffer of it.

If agro is not managed at all over time by a gimped nuker or an unbrained magic user (!), then i'll consider a visit in the form of stone in my bag until the next shrine is in sight.

That's it :)

Brennie
11-30-2012, 05:15 AM
I see now reason why a fleshy caster woudl be any different than a fleshy paladin or rogue. Both of these classes have some self healing via abilities and UMD, but I don't know any cleric who'd hesitate to throw healing their way when they atake damage.

A fleshy sorc may have good enough UMD to scroll heal. Or maybe not. A fleshy Wizard doesn't even have the charisma to back up UMD, so I have no idea why you'd expect them to be more self sufficient than your typical fighter.

If you are having issues with a player's playstyle, regardless of class, let them know before you decide to start pulling the plug on heals. Believe me when i say nonverbal communication is usually not as obvious as people think it will be. Letting someone die doesn't automatically make them think "Well gee, obviously the Cleric thinks I could let the Stalwart Defender be the first to take aggro". They could easily decide you had a lapse in concentration, that enemies were uncharacteristically tough, or that you just stink at healing.

My policy for healing on my FvS is - All fleshies get heals. Even other healy types who let their redbars sit low a little too long, or that drop a little too fast. Of course, any character who is self sufficient is expected to take care of themselves when not in a lifethreatening situation, though I will help out with whatever healing i have that is either free or ridiculously cheap (Capstone heal/renew/whathaveyou). Constructoids get heals if they are not of a class that can reconstruct (though i will have some dialogue with them if they are difficult to heal overall). Undeads never get heals. Forget those guys.

Dhalgren
11-30-2012, 05:46 AM
I'm with Brennie--when I'm healing, I try to keep everyone up who isn't either undead or apparently actively trying to avoid getting healed.

If they're in the next room, well--no heals. Around a corner--maybe, if I can make the corner safely without letting myself or the rest of the party die. Etc.

Then again, I'm pretty much of the "if I die, I screwed up somewhere" school of thought. Either I bit off more than I could chew, or I got too far from the healer, or whatever. I don't have a lot of patience for people who try to blame their failures on others. If someone is playing a character with little or no self-healing, fine, just so long as they do their part to make sure that they're reasonably healable and don't expect me to perform miracles to do it.

Tenlaar
11-30-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't know why you think the average wizard would be able to scroll heal. My 18 wizard has put his point into UMD every level. His total skill, with cha mod? 12. Something like a 15% chance to even use a cure serious wand. It takes serious UMD gearing for a wizard to scroll heal, and would require swapping multiple pieces of gear around during an emergency to try to heal themselves.

TrinityTurtle
11-30-2012, 11:01 AM
While my sorc carries umd to scroll heal hersef, I know a lot who need the points for other things like balance. I has none, and fall down a lot. But I can heal myself. :) Not everyone makes the same skill choices. And what is 'common sense' for one person is a trash build choice to the next.

Sarzor
11-30-2012, 12:36 PM
While playing my healer, I rarely ever heal a wizard, because they really should be able to heal themselves. I just assume, sometimes incorrectly, the wizard is either WF and can repair themselves, or is fleshy and a PM, and should still be able to heal themselves.

As far as sorcerers, fleshy sorcs with no ability to heal themselves can drive me crazy. If they play carefully, I don't mind healing them, but so often they take the 'glass cannon' approach, which means I am just healing them insane amounts since they can't seem to avoid any aggro/damage.

That being said, I kinda don't like healing, since I'm, so accustomed to being self-sufficient, I kinda forget to look at other players' HP.

Ryan220
11-30-2012, 12:53 PM
I don't know why you think the average wizard would be able to scroll heal. My 18 wizard has put his point into UMD every level. His total skill, with cha mod? 12. Something like a 15% chance to even use a cure serious wand. It takes serious UMD gearing for a wizard to scroll heal, and would require swapping multiple pieces of gear around during an emergency to try to heal themselves.


I assumed an average Wizzy would be a PM, but I see a few who arent.

I thought it safe to assume that they would be self suff seeing as they did not take the PM route.

I dont know if a Wiz can scroll heal - Ive never gone that path. I assumed anyone who doesnt go PM has some other form of healing, especially if they want to go running around kiting things making healing them a pita

squishwizzy
11-30-2012, 01:30 PM
Just a quick question.

Im talking general questing and not Raids btw

As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.

Im usually busy up front with the hitters with my Aura up and using bursts for healing when this happens and invariably the Sorc is out of range or around a corner so I waste a heal on them


I normally try to keep every party member healed, but sometimes those Fleshies just dont play smart and require constant attention away from the core healing - as someone on the forum once said "you spank it, you tank it"


Should I go out of my way to heal Fleshie Sorcs and AMs or do I let the Darwinian process take its course?


I think I didnt sleep well as Im feeling grumpy this morning.

The first thing you have to consider is that at about half of the AM community is going to be a fleshy toon. Not everyone in DDO reads the forums, or is going to want to pay out the coin for WF. So, a fleshy AM is a reality you're just going to have to live with. The next thing you're going to have to consider is that many (again, maybe about half) of the AMs you're going to run with arwe going to be first-lifers. You can pretty-much forget UMD being a really viable option for a first-lifer, and they are still learning the skills they need to be effective.

I've got about three fleshy AMs. I get healing occasionally, but I don't wholly rely upon it. I always carry pots. That being said, I appreciate heals when I can get them.

I could go through a long list of different scenarios where I expect some healing, and where I don't. Suffice to say, my expectations for healing is rather situational. In a boss fight with the boss penned in by the melees, I don't expect a lot of heals (they're nice, but I just use tactics to avoid the boss targeting me). In an all-out chaotic melee where I have to drop a lot of CC and AoEs, and even NEED to get hit to regen my SP, I need healing. Even as a WF AM, reconstructs can actually be counterproductive in some situations.

As for a Sorc, while being CHR-heavy, they have a good chance at a high UMD. However, as for "you spank it, you tank it," rule that not always hard-and-fast. Your average Sorc's job is to spank as much stuff as they can, really, really hard. You may drop 5 mobs to about 50% of their HP in one cast, but that it no guarantee that you'll get another bite of that apple. For the most - again, talking about your average Sorc - they are not going to be focused on CC, breaking spell pen, and instakills. They nuke. Theirs is a highly offense-oriented role. They are going to grab aggro, and quickly. I think it would be wiser to keep him afloat with as much offensive capability as he or she has to wipe out the opposition in two or three spells, then let them handle their own heals.

In the end, a PuG is a team. If your Sorc is making a lot of kills (and you actually need to make kills), don't leave them hanging out to dry. If the wizzy is holding a majority of the mobs in pace while the melees wipe them out, or dropping Wail of the Banshee effectively, they're doing their job. Don't penalize them for that.

If they are constantly running out front and getting their a** handed to them virtually every single time - its a big indicator that they're an idiot. Pure arcanes are generally in the rear. Distance is their friend.

Now, you can either let them learn the hard way, or offer helpful suggestions after maybe their first or second maulings. I advise you do that because giving advice up front to a guy who knows that they are doing is a little annoying. To someone who doesn't know what they are doing...well...having the advice sink is is a dodgey proposition. Maybe they are willing to learn right away, maybe they aren't. The more effective way of offering advice is AFTER they've gotten spanked once or twice.

And if they are bull-headed, and don't want to listen, well, consider them well-dressed meat byproducts.

You can usually tell the good one from the bad when they drop blur or stonekin on themselves at the beginning of a quest - a lot of this depends on what level range you're running. Mainly because Damage Reduction and hit-avoidence doesn't suck in general. I can see not dropping blur of displacement if you're looking to get hit with a Torc or Con Opp item. That aside, anything else is just painting a target on their forehead.

Another hint is of they are hanging out in your aura. Or, if they grab aggro, and immediately run into the CC.

Lastly, as I;ve pointed out from time-to-time, many of the touted self-healing options people present in these forums are off the table in many situations. Silver Flame pots are generally not available to anyone who is a first-lifer, lvl 16 and below. UMD is not practical for many first-lifers as well. Not every one has the WF race, or wants to be a WF AM. Not every one wants to be a fleshy PM. I've also pointed out that reconstruct is not a sure-fire strategy for every situation. So, using self-healing as an excuse for not healing anyone is frankly just a cop-out.

So yeah, you should probably heal them. They may not be your prime focus at times, but you should at least make an attempt to keep them up, especially if they are carrying their weight in the party.

Make a few suggestions if they look like they are stuggling.

And if all else fails, and they are dead-set on being an idiot, refet to my "well-dressed meat by-product" explanation.

arminius
11-30-2012, 02:35 PM
IMO, one does what it takes to accomplish the mission. If that includes healing your #1 enemy killer, that doesn't seem like too much of an overwhelming burden to me.

One might as well say, should I as a caster put up an Ice Storm/Acid Rain barrier in front of that cleric who is about to get trashed by a dozen mobs? After all, the cleric should have Blade Barrier and Cometfall. Meh, let him fend for himself.

Beethoven
11-30-2012, 03:00 PM
As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

I ask as recently seen a few Fleshy Sorcs struggling to keep themselves up after biting off more aggro than they can handle.

Well, Scrolls cannot be quickened so (depending on the content) they might be struggling to scroll heal due to the limitation of having to pass a concentration check.

To me it sort of depends, the amount of 'helping' them I'll be doing is usually directly relative to how much they try help themselves; meaning if they make an effort to keep themselves alive when they break away from the group (whether scroll healing or having gone through the effort of getting some healing twists) I'll be likely to go out of my way to throw them a heal if/when/as necessary.


I see now reason why a fleshy caster woudl be any different than a fleshy paladin or rogue.

It's different because most rogues are usually expected to stand at the back of the mobs the group is beating on and paladins frequently are expected to stand in front of them - either way they will be with the group and thus in range for auras, bursts and masses. Sorcerers and Wizards often don't want to stand anywhere near the front lines for some reason, if they then rely on a cleric/fvs for healing it requires a far greater amount of baby sitting. Also, using individual heals for a single toon (in addition to masses for the rest of the group) is more costly.

So, at the end of the day, they are not with the group and require healing from outside sources, it requires special attention and special treatment from the player of the divine caster. It's why I don't think there is a simple answer to the question but it depends on other variables, such as how much does the caster contribute (ie: does the fleshy AM lock down mobs with some serious crowd control? Does the Sorcerer pull his/her weight in terms of dishing out punishment? Do they make any effort to keep themselves alive as much as possible?)

stefferweffer
11-30-2012, 03:48 PM
I'm still new, and my highest character is my 14/2 first life human "Pale trapper", so take what I say with that in mind.

Why would things like this not be worked out in advance of the quest in question? Do groups talk to each other, or is it just assumed that everyone knows exactly what is going to happen? Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them. I'm not saying this is fair, I'm just saying it is probably what a newer player is expecting. Whether it's fair or not, the hireling system, and other MMOs before this one, have given the whole world this notion that "the clerics are there to heal". I'm guessing that you knew this even when you decided to create a cleric. To me it still seems that healing, (and maybe destroying undead?), is what clerics do best. Do Clerics think that they are being invited into groups for DPS or tanking or traps? Again, maybe clerics can do this too, but surely not as well as other classes.

Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also? For a first lifer those scrolls cost money also, which may be hard to come by if they don't understand all the intricacies of making money in the game yet. Again, I'm not sure why this is not all established at the start of the quest anyway.

Having said all of that (which may sound like I'm being hard only on the Cleric), the Sorcerer in question does need to explain their actions if this keeps happening, to make sure that they understand things like "aggro", and where they need to be standing, and when the best times to cast those super damaging spells are. And if they don't learn, then they need to be booted and ignored just as you would anyone else who is not a "team player".

And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else :(

EllisDee37
11-30-2012, 03:49 PM
On my cleric I mostly ignore arcanes and divines, and put pallies and rangers at the end of the priority list for heals. I will try to toss a heal/harm to an arcane whose bar is at 50% or less and has been for several seconds, but if this happens multiple times in a quest I generally write that arcane off as unreliable.

In raids where I have to mass heal the melees, the arcanes are fully on their own and I expect them not to die. If they die, yeah, I'll probably remember their name.

Last hard shroud I solo-healed the fleshie sorc and AM wizard both died maybe a quarter of the way through the first round in part 4. Incredibly annoying, and a significant disservice to the group.

EllisDee37
11-30-2012, 03:59 PM
Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them.Arcanes are expected to be self-sufficient, just like melee FVS are expected to be self-sufficient.


Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also?Because those are the three choices for an arcane: 1) Be warforged, 2) Be a Pale Master, or 3) Invest in umd because one way or another, arcanes are expected to heal themselves.

(I had a guildie once do a half-elf 17/3 archmage/artificer who took that construct essence artie thing that give 50% repair healing to fleshies, meaning he could self-heal with reconstruct. I forget what his dilletante was, but he also had 3 cleric past lives and focused on acid. That alt was unusal but quite effective.)

New players may not be aware of this and end up going with a drow arch-mage because the drow gets extra int. They'll soon face the same scenario that a new player who rolled up a drow barbarian who dumped con faces: some combinations don't work in DDO, especially (or possibly only) for new players.


And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else :(They're talking about pure wizards. Your rogue splash gives you +12 umd compared to a pure wizard, so umd won't be a problem for you.

However, as a pale master you're fully self-sufficient right out of the gate. The primary value you'll get from UMD is raise dead scrolls, plus maybe using heal scrolls on other party members. Scroll-healing other party members isn't a very good use of a pale master, but occasionally it can help prevent a wipe.

squishwizzy
11-30-2012, 04:08 PM
And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else :(

By and large, I try to put them in Balance, Sneak, Hide, and Jump.

It sounds dumb, but for first-life, 28-pt builds UMD is going to be kinda out of reach, at least for a pure build. Balance keeps you on your feet and casting, jump allows you to get to high ground and somtimes makes you unreacable, hide and sneak have solo-friendly uses.

You could put them into Diplo, which also helps damage mitigation.

My first toon I didn't go the UMD route, so I LR-ed. However, given my playstyle, and the need to certain abilities in combat, what was left for UMD was not enough to make it useable.

I'm sure that if you *really* want a decent UMD for your toon, you could put points into it, and basically ignore all others (with the exception of concentration). However, I don't think scroll healing works so well when you're flat on your back (Balance) for a half an hour...

EllisDee37
11-30-2012, 04:12 PM
His wizard is a rogue splash.

FestusHood
11-30-2012, 04:13 PM
I'm still new, and my highest character is my 14/2 first life human "Pale trapper", so take what I say with that in mind.

Why would things like this not be worked out in advance of the quest in question? Do groups talk to each other, or is it just assumed that everyone knows exactly what is going to happen? Something that has not been mentioned yet is that most first-lifers are probably also used to having a cleric hireling with them. Did you let them bring their hireling with them this time, or could the hireling not "fit" into the group? If they don't have that hireling, then they are probably expecting the cleric in the group to heal them. I'm not saying this is fair, I'm just saying it is probably what a newer player is expecting. Whether it's fair or not, the hireling system, and other MMOs before this one, have given the whole world this notion that "the clerics are there to heal". I'm guessing that you knew this even when you decided to create a cleric. To me it still seems that healing, (and maybe destroying undead?), is what clerics do best. Do Clerics think that they are being invited into groups for DPS or tanking or traps? Again, maybe clerics can do this too, but surely not as well as other classes.

Regarding wizards and sorcerers, if they are not warforged, and not in undead form, why would you assume that they put gobs of skill points into UMD? Do you assume this for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Fighters also? For a first lifer those scrolls cost money also, which may be hard to come by if they don't understand all the intricacies of making money in the game yet. Again, I'm not sure why this is not all established at the start of the quest anyway.

Having said all of that (which may sound like I'm being hard only on the Cleric), the Sorcerer in question does need to explain their actions if this keeps happening, to make sure that they understand things like "aggro", and where they need to be standing, and when the best times to cast those super damaging spells are. And if they don't learn, then they need to be booted and ignored just as you would anyone else who is not a "team player".

And on a side note, if there's no possible way (according to others in this thread) for me to get any use out of UMD on my wizard on my first life, then I need to do another LR and put all those points somewhere else :(

You have rogue levels so you have a much better chance of useful umd than a pure wizard who can only put half ranks into the umd skill each level. In fact, you should have basically the same umd ability as a rogue.

Enoach
11-30-2012, 04:19 PM
First lets put aside the "Fleshie" criteria and if they are a "Big" contributor to the party's success, and talk about Expectations that one has when they join a group and have the capability of healing other party members (this is not limited to classes seen as primary healers, but is open to just about anyone that has access to some form of healing be it an innate ability or through UMD, also includes Arcane casters with repair/recon on WF party members scrolls/wands are still available to assist).
Expectations

If one can reasonably heal another to prevent them from dying, then one should
If one can reasonably save another - grab aggro, trip, stun etc. to prevent them from dying, then one should
All party members are working for the completion of the quest and taking reasonable risk in accomplishing that goal


Personally I don't excuse any party member from being able to assist another when they are in trouble, even if the help is simply removing the aggro from the one in trouble. The only time anyone is absolved from someone else's death is when it was just plain stupid and there was absolutely nothing anyone could have done to prevent it.

As a one in a primary healing role you actually have an advantage, you are paying more attention in some cases to other party members health, which means you can actually tell the party "Wizard needs help" or "You Barbarian help the wizard, and let the Tank hold the primary aggro". Try it, you may be surprised just how quickly people will come to each others aid if you call out. Sometimes you just have to assume they have their hands to tied up in the pickle to communicate they are going down.

Wipey
11-30-2012, 04:28 PM
Jeebus, you have 7 gazillion skill points on wizzy, balance , concentration and that's it. What else you gonna use ?

What about a pure palemaster scroll hjealing fleshies ? IMPOSSIBRU

Tenlaar
11-30-2012, 04:30 PM
This:


As a Cleric am I "expected" to heal fleshy AMs and Sorcs that should be at a level where they can scroll heal?

Followed by this:


I dont know if a Wiz can scroll heal - Ive never gone that path.
Is part of the problem here. You have previously decided that wizards should be scroll healing while not knowing if they even can. There is only one way that the majority of "fleshy AMs" can heal themselves - cure pots for 20 something HP each.

If you are playing a healing role and somebody is just playing badly and being an unnecessary drain on resources nobody is going to say you should keep going out of your way to healbot them. But if you have, say, a CC focused fleshy AM who is doing his job, you want to keep them alive. If I lock down seven of the eight mobs that come at us, and one saves and gets a couple of hits on me before it gets CC'd as well, you better believe I expect you to heal me. Tossing one lesser heal on me is a small price to pay for not having to heal anybody else for that fight.

And yes, I do play a healer as well. The arcanes who are constantly pulling agro by just nuking right out of the gate before a melee can even engage, or over nuking groups, better make it easy for me to heal them with my aura or it probably won't be a very pleasant run for them.

I never have and doubt I ever will understand the mentality that people in my group need to play like six people who happen to be soloing the same quest. If people are contributing, you contribute. If you choose to take on the role of healer for a group, that means healing whoever needs it.

FestusHood
11-30-2012, 04:34 PM
In raids where I have to mass heal the melees, the arcanes are fully on their own and I expect them not to die. If they die, yeah, I'll probably remember their name.

Last hard shroud I solo-healed the fleshie sorc and AM wizard both died maybe a quarter of the way through the first round in part 4. Incredibly annoying, and a significant disservice to the group.

Not too hard for an arcane without viable self healing to die in shroud fighting Harry. Random meteor swarms and blades can hit you even if you're trying to be careful. Are you suggesting that they hide in the corner and don't add any offense?

I play in a strange guild on Argo. Loaded with fleshy casters and melees who need healing. Oddly all of these players also have high level clerics or favored souls. When they are on their healers, they will fight over who gets to do the healing the way businessmen fight over a dinner check. They will chide you for self healing instead of contributing damage, because they've got it covered. Isn't that weird?

squishwizzy
11-30-2012, 04:41 PM
Oh here we go again...


Arcanes are expected to be self-sufficient, just like melee FVS are expected to be self-sufficient.

Yeah. That's why we get spells like Cure Serious Wounds in our roster.

(Rolls eyes)


Because those are the three choices for an arcane: 1) Be warforged, 2) Be a Pale Master, or 3) Invest in umd because one way or another, arcanes are expected to heal themselves.

Once more, while you think your pale trapper is great - and yeah, it's not bad for a self-sufficient solo toon - you are WOEFULLY weak in enchantment CC. You lose INT without the capstone.

Likewise, you want to do Enchantment well? WF is not the way to go. Elves get Arcanum enhancements - spell pen. WF do not.

Yeah, you can reconstruct. Those SP lost in reconstruct are SP lost when it comes to either killing mobs, or dancing them. Sorry.

Your only solution is then to go to 32-point builds. Hate to tell you this, but the Elf is still going to wipe the floor with a WF in a 32-point build. Again: sorry.

I've seen more than my fair share of WF AMs that cannot hold mobs for an extended period of time in EH content, if they can break the spell pen at all. And yeah, the melees in the raids get a little annoyed when you're supposed to dance the devils, and you don't.

Let me be straight: YOUR expectation is that arcanes are expected to heal themselves. That is YOUR personal expectation, not a part of the game. If that were true, I'd have positive healing spells for my arcanes - I don't.

Expectation in PUGS is enchantment from a wizzy. Yeah, they like PMs too. They also like PMs that can drop disco balls effectively. You can do Web, sure - it is not a effective solution for everything. In high-level content, it really only works in the Cannith quests, and not much else. You really gotta handle both. And your average new player - especially of they PUG - is going to be hitting EH content. I do that right now with my 28-point wizzy doing Enchantment CC. I have next to no problems in that area because I took that arcanum enhancements, and a capstone. A WF AM, or a PM is not going to be able to do that as well, especially if they don't stay pure.

Again, this is a new player forum not a "player with 3 past lives looking for info they probably already knew" category.

Your Pale Trapper is a nice build for a specific niche. It is not all things for all people, and it has limitations. WF AMs are nice, but they too have limitations. Likewise an Elf AM is going to have limitations. How a new player handles limitations is what makes them a better player in the end - not the build.


New players may not be aware of this and end up going with a drow arch-mage because the drow gets extra int. They'll soon face the same scenario that a new player who rolled up a drow barbarian who dumped con faces: some combinations don't work in DDO, especially (or possibly only) for new players.

No, a new player is unlikely to purchase a Drow off the bat. They are like to go human or elf and these - again - are free.

And funny, my elf AM was effective enough to get a True Heart of Wood...with enough epic tokens to pass off onto my pally for a TR as well. I was effective enough to make three GS items (actually 4 1/2 given the fact I screwed one of them up). So...uh...you're wrong.


They're talking about pure wizards. Your rogue splash gives you +12 umd compared to a pure wizard, so umd won't be a problem for you.

True.

And he loses capstone. So he gains UMD - which is good depending on your situation - but loses effectiveness as a wizard. First life, 28-point builds in epic content are basically on the fringe of effectiveness. So you have to specialize.


However, as a pale master you're fully self-sufficient right out of the gate. The primary value you'll get from UMD is raise dead scrolls, plus maybe using heal scrolls on other party members. Scroll-healing other party members isn't a very good use of a pale master, but occasionally it can help prevent a wipe.

Give them time. They'll nerf that. ;P

squishwizzy
11-30-2012, 04:50 PM
Not too hard for an arcane without viable self healing to die in shroud fighting Harry. Random meteor swarms and blades can hit you even if you're trying to be careful. Are you suggesting that they hide in the corner and don't add any offense?

Actually, it's not random. Harry looks faces you a second or two before he casts. If you move, he misses. That's why I generally cast a couple of spells, then move. Works almost every time...uh...until you walk into a Meteor Swarm that's directed at someone else.

And...um...I've never done that before (or at least ever admitted to doing that in the past).

If you stand in one spot and have tunnel vision in those fights, yeah, you're gonna die. If you move, it's amazing just how little healing you actually need, if any.


I play in a strange guild on Argo. Loaded with fleshy casters and melees who need healing. Oddly all of these players also have high level clerics or favored souls. When they are on their healers, they will fight over who gets to do the healing the way businessmen fight over a dinner check. They will chide you for self healing instead of contributing damage, because they've got it covered. Isn't that weird?

Yeah. Healers healing? We gotta put a stop to that nonsense right away!

Anihsod
11-30-2012, 05:02 PM
It's simple really .. if you are on your cleric .. you dps when you should dps and heal when you should heal. The fleshy sorc is probably the highest dps in the group .. keeping him up is a good idea. Keeping him up at the expense of "good" play however is another matter. If you are having to chase him down to heal him because he keeps going out of line of sight .. then it merits telling him to stay in line of sight .. or accept the rez when the fight is over.

As far as "expectations" are concerned tho .. the DDO community is all over the map where class expectations are concerned.

CaptainSpacePony
11-30-2012, 05:04 PM
I have very strong feelings on this subject so I'll try to not yell.

When my FvS is on healing duty (which is most of the time) I consider it my responsibility to keep the rest of the party standing. For that reason I have Harm (a not common enough FvS spell IMO). I carry stacks of Heal scrolls, Mass Cure Moderate scrolls, and SP pots.

I heal melees (obv) I heal WF arcanes, I harm PMs, and I heal clerics and FvSs. I heal characters with low HP totals, high HP totals, lots of healing amp and no healing amp. I even sometimes chase characters around corners (low priority) when they are blocked.

Lately I've been leveling my WF Paladin TR. When I post an LFM for a quest I usually will take any applicants regardless of class. Half the time I am the designated healer (Cure Moderate Wounds spell and and a CSW wand FTW!)

Sure, the job is a lot easier when the HP bars stay full on their own, and players should ALL work to make everyone else's job easier. Even so, when my job is heals--that's what I do.

WargamerIV
11-30-2012, 05:30 PM
My feeling is that clerics who don't heal all fleshies shouldn't complain when I take the time to use CLW instead of CSW because I don't have the UMD to use CSW with close to 100% and I don't feel lilke wasting the plat to fail 80% of the time.

T

FestusHood
11-30-2012, 05:32 PM
Actually, it's not random. Harry looks faces you a second or two before he casts. If you move, he misses. That's why I generally cast a couple of spells, then move. Works almost every time...uh...until you walk into a Meteor Swarm that's directed at someone else.


Actually, i've never done shroud with an arcane. In fact, the only character i have done shroud with so far is a ranged ranger. Similar playstyle to an arcane though, not being toe to toe. I guess i haven't picked up on all the tells that the caster npc's give out in this game yet. I hope when you say a second or two you are underestimating the time. I don't believe one second is enough time to move out of the way of an aoe that is cast at you, even if you are completely expecting it.

I've done some experimenting, mostly with fire elementals, who have very long windups before they cast fireballs. I find that in my case, you have to be way clear of the visual effect of the fireball to not get hit by it. I've found that in ddo, unlike say, a console game, lots of things that look like they don't hit you still hit you. Before anyone suggests it, I have a consistent latency of about 95, and i'm not experiencing any signs of lag at the time.

Alternative
11-30-2012, 05:40 PM
IMO it shouldn't depend on class whether they deserve to be heale or not. If a caster is doing a good job, but at one moment gets in trouble, letting him die "just because" is really unreasonable. Now if someone is doing their best to avoid heals, that's a whole different story.

moops
11-30-2012, 05:41 PM
It's a judgement call...

In most content, they are further down on my priority list because they can heal themselves. ..and they probably are chewing off more than they can handle, and should learn to manage their aggro in groups--as it might be scaling that they are not used to since they solo alot.

However, in EE, esp the new EE....CC draws a ton of aggro, if a mob initially saves or eventually saves, often they are going to go right for the caster, and the damage output is insane. I don't want to lose the CC that is up, so it is in the best interest to keep the caster Alive--Caster is actually my first priority, even over myself sometimes, as everyone I usually play with can rez...and losing that CC with too many mobs alive can be more painful then people pulling back and rezzing me:)

Edited to add:
If you are a new player or a new healer..the first thing you should do in any quest, is decide your priority list in heals...Somtimes it's an intim tank that you have to keep alive for things to run smooth, sometimes it's caster, or sometimes it's even a monk or arti as they have CC options as well that the group might be using if they don't have a caster. Use the heal spell and a heal scroll, and you can keep the priority people up usually. If you start to just spam heals to keep everyone up, instead of the group playing smarter, then you will prob run into having to use pots.

EllisDee37
11-30-2012, 07:57 PM
Oh here we go again...Again? I don't remember the first time.


Once more, while you think your pale trapper is great - and yeah, it's not bad for a self-sufficient solo toon - you are WOEFULLY weak in enchantment CC. You lose INT without the capstone.Couldn't be more wrong. The only difference between a rogue splash and pure is 1 dc and 2 spell pen. That's it. In what world is missing 1 enchant dc WOEFULLY weak? What, 46 is uber while 45 is gimp to high heaven? Get your facts straight.

(The 46 and 45 are just random numbers. Point out the two consecutive numbers where the higher one is uber while the lower one is WOEFULLY weak.)


Your only solution is then to go to 32-point builds. Hate to tell you this, but the Elf is still going to wipe the floor with a WF in a 32-point build. Again: sorry.32-point builds have zero impact on wizards because 28pt builds can max int anyway. You get no additional int regardless of your build points.


Let me be straight: YOUR expectation is that arcanes are expected to heal themselves. That is YOUR personal expectation, not a part of the game. If that were true, I'd have positive healing spells for my arcanes - I don't.It is my expectation, yes. It is also the expectation of the majority of the playerbase.


And he loses capstone. So he gains UMD - which is good depending on your situation - but loses effectiveness as a wizard. First life, 28-point builds in epic content are basically on the fringe of effectiveness. So you have to specialize.He also gains evasion and trapping skills. Consider the discussion of Harry fights. I just stand there like a statue without concern because aura + evasion easily keeps me going through his meteor swarms.

As for the part where you say 28-pt builds are "on the fringe of effectiveness" in epics, you are flat-out wrong. 28-pt builds do just fine in eHard content provided they start in a caster destiny. Once they make a little progress in a caster destiny they can faceroll eHard content.

Properly geared and twisted to the gills, a first-life enchantment-specced wizard can reach low-50s spell pen. It's much easier to build up some past lives instead, though; some of that gear is a pain to get.


I'm not sure why you've bought into the "splashed casters are GIMP!!!" mindset, but it is out of date. They haven't been gimp since destinies were introduced in U14.

Wipey
11-30-2012, 08:38 PM
This is not a positive post.

Again? I don't remember the first time.
Hard to miss brilliant advice in these melee threads, **** toons blaming divines, this time it's arcane for a change.
I shouldn't respond but can't ignore.

In raids where I have to mass heal the melees, the arcanes are fully on their own and I expect them not to die. If they die, yeah, I'll probably remember their name.
Yes, you'll remember after they bite the curb few times, you might even yourddo, cause how the heck arcane dies in Shroud.

Yeah. That's why we get spells like Cure Serious Wounds in our roster.
I will get so much **** for this, but dude, your lvl 23 wizzy has 340 hp, 8 reflex and 36 intelligence. So perhaps get some experience and perspective before you say how pugs want enchantment, can't use lightning cause everything in epic evades (lol ),mean clerics wouldn't heal you or how 1st lifer can't roflstomp epic hard.
I don't care what everybody plays, what toon, build, level, difficulty but divine blame gets me every time.
Step up YOUR game. You are like Snootch, but polite.

Neg rep, here I come. I repeat , I am mean person, I might even let people die.

FranOhmsford
11-30-2012, 09:49 PM
I love how this thread has graduated to Epics!

I've personally leveled 4 Fleshy Wizards to at least Lvl 11:

Ealdred - H-Orc AM - 11 {Yes he's a flavour toon}.
Lithya - Drow Zombie - 11 {logged on to her last night to check inventory and found out she was still wearing Archivist's Set - Aaaaargh}.
Franq - Human AM - 18 {UMD with GH = 16.5}.
Larystessian - Elf PM / 2 Rogue - 18 {was AM 14 / Rogue 4 - Proper gimped - Until I Lesser Ressed him}.

And I can say that the Early to Mid Teens are HARD on a Fleshy Caster! {First Life!}.

I somehow doubt that the OP was specifically talking about Epic Elite Content - When people go on about how easy Epic Hards are they regularly bring up destinies.
A Lvl 20-21 with perhaps the lowest level of his/her first destiny however..........

Amrath is pretty d@rn hard in my experience at this level.
Epic Normals are no walk in the park either.

Currently the issues are that at lvl 25 with maxed destinies you're over-level {incredibly so} for the quests in game atm. As the Devs crank out new Lvl 23-25 Content this will be fixed for the power-gamers amongst us.

Whereas The difference in XP for Heroic Quests as opposed to Epic makes those first two Epic Levels quite hard for people like me. {especially with Over-Level Penalties being applied liberally to the likes of Shroud - It was OK earning no xp for Shroud when cap was 20 anyway BUT now it's a serious Pain in the Neck}.
How are the devs going to fix this I wonder?

Ryan220
12-01-2012, 12:12 PM
Hello all (im the OP)

lots of info in this thread which is great, thank you

Ive been thinking about this topic lately and thought Id add a few thingss


I am a new Cleric - never ran one before.

I mostly run WF Sorcs, but also have a WF and a fleshy PM - this is most likely where my expectation that all Arcanes can self heal (plus Im used to running with well geared Fleshy Sorcs who self heal very effectively)

My post is referring to my exeriences running Heroic Elite at 18+ (Ive since capped and run EH now)


My mistake was assuming that everyone is either WF or PM or a geared and experience fleshy Sorc -


Add to the mix Im not the greatest or most confident of healers, I find turning away from the melee to heal an Arcane (that I mistakenly assume to be self suff) and then recentre on the melee to be quite tricky.


So I made a few assumptions due to inexperience Im afraid.


My apologies for the confusion

Ryan220
12-01-2012, 12:31 PM
I have very strong feelings on this subject so I'll try to not yell.

When my FvS is on healing duty (which is most of the time) I consider it my responsibility to keep the rest of the party standing. For that reason I have Harm (a not common enough FvS spell IMO). I carry stacks of Heal scrolls, Mass Cure Moderate scrolls, and SP pots.

I heal melees (obv) I heal WF arcanes, I harm PMs, and I heal clerics and FvSs. I heal characters with low HP totals, high HP totals, lots of healing amp and no healing amp. I even sometimes chase characters around corners (low priority) when they are blocked.

Lately I've been leveling my WF Paladin TR. When I post an LFM for a quest I usually will take any applicants regardless of class. Half the time I am the designated healer (Cure Moderate Wounds spell and and a CSW wand FTW!)

Sure, the job is a lot easier when the HP bars stay full on their own, and players should ALL work to make everyone else's job easier. Even so, when my job is heals--that's what I do.


Not many WF Pallys around.

I ran And the Dead shall Rise this morning and there was a WF Pally in the group - the name started with Heal.....or Hela......or similar
I was on my TR WF PM Mantrax.

Nice run

Kmnh
12-01-2012, 12:34 PM
Any character should be able to heal itself out of ciritical situations. Sitting there at 10% HP and screaming for hjeals is silly. Drink a pot already. On EE quests, the difference between having 200 or 230 HP left is huge.

Any character that has the ability to heal should top off the characters that are in danger if they can. Tossing heal scrolls on clerics while they wait on the mass heal animation can save a party. Letting party members die and making snarky remarks about byoh over voice chat is a **** move.

Tenlaar
12-01-2012, 01:23 PM
Drink a pot already.

I think you meant to say "drink 15-20 pots already." Cause everybody loves to stand around waiting for that.

Kmnh
12-02-2012, 10:43 AM
I think you meant to say "drink 15-20 pots already." Cause everybody loves to stand around waiting for that.

You don't need to heal to full HP, but you do need to go above the "Ill be dead in 1 hit" mark. A few more seconds makes the cleric's life a lot easier.

Braegan
12-02-2012, 11:14 AM
I don't know why you think the average wizard would be able to scroll heal. My 18 wizard has put his point into UMD every level. His total skill, with cha mod? 12. Something like a 15% chance to even use a cure serious wand. It takes serious UMD gearing for a wizard to scroll heal, and would require swapping multiple pieces of gear around during an emergency to try to heal themselves.

While you could probably get a bit higher on UMD, this is a good point. Since this is new player sub-section let's ignore some uber gear, PL, and even greensteel since in the game at this stage it's likely you will be 20 before you make your first GS item, unless you have other toons to pass you down larges.

11 - maxed out for cross skill
3 - cha (8+2tome+6item)
4 - GH (you have the spell)
1-2 Luck (VoTM, Possible Recitation buff going)
3 - item (deleras neck)

22-23

That's a long way short of hitting 40 to use Heal Scrolls. Not to mention UMD rolls do *seem* to roll low more often then not.

You could squeeze out a couple more points at the cost of being more effective as a wizzy. Skill Focus costs a valuable feat slot, HV eats up valuable AP and is only good for short durations.

Now you can get closer to that mark later in game on a 1st lifer. +6 (GS item), +5 Epic levels, maybe E Big Top (3), Good Luck slotted somewhere and you'd be looking at a 37 UMD without gimping yourself and with some gear swapping.

So it can be possible with some work for a fleshy, first life AM to get a usable UMD. But it won't be realistic until very late in the game and after some gearing up. To expect an AM to have UMD to scroll heal through mid levels is a bit out of touch. They can, however, reach enough UMD to resonably use Cure Mod-Serious wands until that point.

Ushurak
12-02-2012, 01:17 PM
The only toon I have that is not a caster is my monk which I have parked.
So this is coming from an AVID and experienced caster.

With all the self healing options available to casters of any flavor, if they chose a race that CAN NOT be inherently healed given all the availability of self-healing that the Arcane lines offer, it SHOULD NOT fall upon ANY other class to have to keep them alive.

I know plenty of Fleshy Arcanes that can take care of themselves on this front and kudos to them. They have taken responsibility for themselves and decided to place the burden of their decision on nobody but themselves. If you can not do this then you made a LESS THAN POOR choice and need to re-roll or park your toon.

I NEVER ask for heals.
In EE I am competent enough in my abilities that I still do not ask, though most Divines I know still have my back when they feel I need it.

There is a difference in having each others back and having to pull someone else's slack.

What you have to be careful for is the ones that normally can take care of themselves and for whatever reason now find themselves in a tight spot. You did mention "aggro" and "just plain bad luck" which tells me you know the difference in someone needing help and someone being incompetent.

Sometimes you have to choose your battles though. If it is a guild sponsored run and the player you are alluding to is part of the sponsored guild and you are not...maybe heal them and drop after completion and remember the players name for future reference...even if the player is wrong, the guild will tend to stick up for their own. In a straight up PuG....it's your choice...there is NO rule that says you have to heal stupid.

Sinsyne
12-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Well... as a wizard coming from an RPG background, for me both robots (WFs) and undeads (PMs) are out of question for a heroic MMORPG like DDO wants to be. So this leaves me (and a lot of other like minded people) with no other choice than UMD. (Forget arti dilli now.)

And it's ok, I can scroll heal myself pretty well, but what many people don't realize is that mobs love to debuff players too and that makes things just a bit more difficult than I'd like them to be: dispel magic or symbol of pain is VERY common, charisma damage in dreaming dark/iq quests renders UMD useless or unreliable at least and of course there's the horrible UMD lag that comes when switching gear.

Plus for a 1st life wizard subtract the +3/+4 tome bonus from his charisma, subtract a +6 umd skill gs item and subtract any good luck +2/spyglasses/etc. loot that they don't have access to.

That leaves you as a healer indeed responsible for the poor sod unless you want to put him in the dead-book withou any apparent reason. But imho it don't really matter what the forumites say to you, in the end if the guy acts like a jerk you won't heal him and if he's a fun person to hang with you will care for him enough to throw a heal or two when he's at low HP.

Tenlaar
12-02-2012, 05:15 PM
There is a difference in having each others back and having to pull someone else's slack.

If a group has somebody designated to be the healer then it is NOT pulling someone else's "slack" to heal them. And seeing as we're not talking about BYOH groups here I can't even fathom why you would feel that way.

Sunarch_Kunari
12-02-2012, 05:22 PM
Here's my normal cleric checklist:

1. Am I injured? (if yes, then heal myself)
2. Is a party member injured? (if no, go to 1, if yes, go to 3)
3. Is this party member fleshy, WF or undead? (if fleshy, go to 4, if WF, go to 5, if undead, go to 6)
4. Is this a cleric/fvs/bard/whatever that can heal themselves? (if yes, only heal when below 35% or taking damage too fast. If no, heal them with low-cost heals or bursts)
5. Is this a wizard/sorcerer/whatever that can heal themselves? (if yes, only heal when below 35% or taking damage to fast. If no, heal them with low-cost heals or bursts)
6. Is the undead's auras keeping him ok? (e.g. he's not below 30% within 2 seconds of a fight) (If no, toss him a harm, if yes, toss him a harm when below 35% and in combat)

Daemoneyes
12-02-2012, 05:57 PM
meh ddo player are strange
just ignore those doofus that cant teamplay
if you can safe someone then why not?

I can understand that dps healer builds dont want to Main heal,
but throwing a heal here and there is the least thing anyone can do.
I even put down my weapons and scroll-heal the group with my rogue when it just saves us, one more or less dpsing doesnt matter but having the group standing or flat does.

And yeah my dps drunk wont top off your hp but i will throw you a heal if it safes you.


Guess this game would need some real pvp to shoo those i dont heal you guys away.

Ushurak
12-03-2012, 07:51 AM
If a group has somebody designated to be the healer then it is NOT pulling someone else's "slack" to heal them. And seeing as we're not talking about BYOH groups here I can't even fathom why you would feel that way.

BYOH doesn't matter nor was it mentioned.
It is absolutely nobodies responsibility to pull my slack.
If everyone is working together and doing the best they can and one of the team needs help then fine...let's help.
If, however, one player is not doing all they can (even if it is passive due to knowingly making a build that had the capability to heal itself but refused to do it) then they deserve nothing.

Some class/race options do not have self-healing options and I am fine with this; but to chose a class/race option that otherwise would have had the option to self-heal but I ignored it...my problem, my responsibility...NOT the Divines.

Also, the ones that chose to make a combo that can't self-heal that otherwise could have that have learned how to get by anyway are usually extremely good players under any circumstance. The ones that chose a combo that can not self heal and depends solely on divines are ,generally speaking, not going to bring enough to the table to warrant having in the group in the first place.

I am not talking about a new player...we are talking about someone that, somehow, has fumbled their way through the game to the point where they are now in what most consider the be the top raid in the game...at this point you are no longer considered "new". At this point, you are either a good player, a bad player or an average player.

A good player can take the most failed build in the game and work magic with it. A bad player can't take the best build in the game and make it look like the worst. Only time will tell with the average player.

Chances are, the OP already knows that the player being alluded to is a bad player making bad choices with a bad build but was afraid of offending (....I say this because it apparently was glaring enough of a problem to warrant coming to the forums with) anyone openly by just stating outright "Dude, you suck, your build is a fail and you chose a poor race/class combo for your play-style", which is good because it tells me that the OP has some class and a bit of patience as well, which also lets me know that the OP is probably a very good player as well or at least very likable in-game.

Now, if I was on my FS and came across this type of player in a raid, would I heal them? Probably, yes. Would I remember them for future reference...OH YEAH!

stefferweffer
12-03-2012, 08:24 AM
Umm, here is what the OP said:

"Im talking general questing and not Raids btw"

So we're not talking some high end raid. In fact he later came and said that these weren't even level 20 characters yet. So the question is more generalized than some are making it out to be. Again, consider the source and the location of this thread "New player Advice".

As a first life, first ever character Wiz/Rog Palemaster (level 17 now), I again say that in my humble opinion a Cleric (especially in a regular quest) should be ready and willing to assist all who need help. My wizard carries at least 4 spells that I use just to buff the party (when I'm even in a group, which is rare these days). I spend over 100 sp after each rest just to do so. I charm enemies and FOD them and sometimes even blast them. I DOT the bosses. In my case I even disable the traps and pick the locks. Not saying I'm awesome or anything, but just that I "do my share". So Yes, I EXPECT to be helped in some way if I need it, by the Cleric or by others as the case may be. If I'm doing something wrong (as I'm sure I still do occasionally), KINDLY TELL ME. If I don't listen, then consider booting me, but please not before we've had a conversation about it :)

Ushurak
12-03-2012, 09:08 AM
Umm, here is what the OP said:

"Im talking general questing and not Raids btw"

So we're not talking some high end raid. In fact he later came and said that these weren't even level 20 characters yet. So the question is more generalized than some are making it out to be. Again, consider the source and the location of this thread "New player Advice".

As a first life, first ever character Wiz/Rog Palemaster (level 17 now), I again say that in my humble opinion a Cleric (especially in a regular quest) should be ready and willing to assist all who need help. My wizard carries at least 4 spells that I use just to buff the party (when I'm even in a group, which is rare these days). I spend over 100 sp after each rest just to do so. I charm enemies and FOD them and sometimes even blast them. I DOT the bosses. In my case I even disable the traps and pick the locks. Not saying I'm awesome or anything, but just that I "do my share". So Yes, I EXPECT to be helped in some way if I need it, by the Cleric or by others as the case may be. If I'm doing something wrong (as I'm sure I still do occasionally), KINDLY TELL ME. If I don't listen, then consider booting me, but please not before we've had a conversation about it :)

WOOPS...my bad and my apologies.
I was jumping between two different threads and thought that being in CitW had been mentioned.

Again...my sincerest apologies.

Anything pre-level 20 (Epic levels) I would cut a little slack. Maybe it is their first toon and took it up a ways and needs a little coaching as to what that class is capable of if paired with the proper race or what the expectations will be of them in later content if the player chooses to stay with the class/race combo they have chosen.

Charononus
12-03-2012, 09:42 AM
meh ddo player are strange
just ignore those doofus that cant teamplay
if you can safe someone then why not?

I can understand that dps healer builds dont want to Main heal,
but throwing a heal here and there is the least thing anyone can do.
I even put down my weapons and scroll-heal the group with my rogue when it just saves us, one more or less dpsing doesnt matter but having the group standing or flat does.

And yeah my dps drunk wont top off your hp but i will throw you a heal if it safes you.


Guess this game would need some real pvp to shoo those i dont heal you guys away.

Here's my take fleshy wizards can self heal by going pm. If you can't use umd (first life ext) for heal scrolls, you need to be a pm or you are treating your cleric fvs ext the same as a hireling. Treating people like npc's is rude, the choice to be a fleshy am that cant heal scroll is rude the moment you join the party.

Ushurak
12-03-2012, 09:47 AM
here's my take fleshy wizards can self heal by going pm. If you can't use umd (first life ext) for heal scrolls, you need to be a pm or you are treating your cleric fvs ext the same as a hireling. Treating people like npc's is rude, the choice to be a fleshy am that cant heal scroll is rude the moment you join the party.

this!

stefferweffer
12-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Here's my take fleshy wizards can self heal by going pm. If you can't use umd (first life ext) for heal scrolls, you need to be a pm or you are treating your cleric fvs ext the same as a hireling. Treating people like npc's is rude, the choice to be a fleshy am that cant heal scroll is rude the moment you join the party.

Do you apply this same standard to the melee characters? Should they have spent all their skill points in UMD, even though they could never get it high enough to heal themselves? Or for that matter, do we now require all melees to take several levels of cleric for self healing? If your point is simply that fleshy wizards COULD take Palemaster, I could say the same thing about everyone taking cleric levels, couldn't I? Isn't the very point of being in a group so that we can help each other accomplish the task. I would think that a Cleric would LOVE healing the other players, and being a valuable part of the team. But I've seen so many clerics comment on how they hate healing all the time, and it just seems odd to me. Should my wizard complain about charming and FODing all the time?

And if expecting a Cleric to heal (if/when they can) is now considered "rude", then we have a problem. Maybe my wizard can start tanking the mobs with my quarterstaff too. I mean, someone expecting my wizard to cast spells is really "treating me like an NPC".

So the game, I guess, should have made the archmage line only available to the Warforged race? Apparently a little variety in our casters is a bad thing now, which is sad.

Again, this just coming from a new player on his first character. But it's becoming rather clear to me that first life, new players will just never be welcome in many groups, which does not bode well for the future of this game :(

Charononus
12-03-2012, 10:36 AM
Do you apply this same standard to the melee characters? Should they have spent all their skill points in UMD, even though they could never get it high enough to heal themselves? Or for that matter, do we now require all melees to take several levels of cleric for self healing? If your point is simply that fleshy wizards COULD take Palemaster, I could say the same thing about everyone taking cleric levels, couldn't I? Isn't the very point of being in a group so that we can help each other accomplish the task. I would think that a Cleric would LOVE healing the other players, and being a valuable part of the team. But I've seen so many clerics comment on how they hate healing all the time, and it just seems odd to me. Should my wizard complain about charming and FODing all the time?

And if expecting a Cleric to heal (if/when they can) is now considered "rude", then we have a problem. Maybe my wizard can start tanking the mobs with my quarterstaff too. I mean, someone expecting my wizard to cast spells is really "treating me like an NPC".

So the game, I guess, should have made the archmage line only available to the Warforged race? Apparently a little variety in our casters is a bad thing now, which is sad.

Again, this just coming from a new player on his first character. But it's becoming rather clear to me that first life, new players will just never be welcome in many groups, which does not bode well for the future of this game :(

All my melee are helf with cleric dill, so I can self heal even before sf pots. Take responsibility for your own red bar, a cleric fvs that heals when damage is high and damages, cc's, instant kills trash is a much happier divine as divines in this game are not "healers" like other mmo's.

stefferweffer
12-03-2012, 10:38 AM
As a follow up to my last post, I apologize for the aggressive tone. I shouldn't get so upset about something so trivial.

If someone wants to make a Cleric that doesn't want to heal certain character classes, that is totally within their rights to do so. It's their game too, so they can play however they want. But fortunately my in-game friends don't play like this. And we also are still bringing our own clerics anyway...

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Actually, i've never done shroud with an arcane. In fact, the only character i have done shroud with so far is a ranged ranger. Similar playstyle to an arcane though, not being toe to toe. I guess i haven't picked up on all the tells that the caster npc's give out in this game yet. I hope when you say a second or two you are underestimating the time. I don't believe one second is enough time to move out of the way of an aoe that is cast at you, even if you are completely expecting it.

I've done some experimenting, mostly with fire elementals, who have very long windups before they cast fireballs. I find that in my case, you have to be way clear of the visual effect of the fireball to not get hit by it. I've found that in ddo, unlike say, a console game, lots of things that look like they don't hit you still hit you. Before anyone suggests it, I have a consistent latency of about 95, and i'm not experiencing any signs of lag at the time.

Actually, my keyboard skills suck. So if I can pick up the tell and move, I have no doubt you could too.

It's really kinda easy. You face Harry and DoT him, drop AoEs, and maybe a ranged spell or two. Cast about 3 to 4 times, then relocate. The only hitch is that you need to avoid the blades early by standing way back against the wall, then as they circle closer, you can move up and start seriously casting. Just keep them in the periphery of your vision to make sure you move back before they circle around.

Ideally, if you cast 3 to 4 spells and reposition (and I'm talking about 7 or 8 steps from your original location), odds are Harry isn't going to target you.

And if Harry faces you directly: move immediately. Like that scene from Better Off Dead where they give advice on how to ski...

Iaga
12-03-2012, 10:58 AM
... I would think that a Cleric would LOVE healing the other players, and being a valuable part of the team.The snarky answer here is to tell you to roll a cleric and play it as a heal bot. You'll figure out the angst real quick.
...But I've seen so many clerics comment on how they hate healing all the time, and it just seems odd to me. Should my wizard complain about charming and FODing all the time?Many clerics are told to only heal. That's a single spell and once you've cast it on a player twice, you know the outcome. The type of quest, foe, etc doesn't matter at all. Your wizard casts a much larger variety of spells, requires you to decide what spell to use (vs reflex/fort/will spell pen/AOE/single target/cc/instakill, etc ...) The jobs are not the same and healing is much more tedious/boring.


And if expecting a Cleric to heal (if/when they can) is now considered "rude", then we have a problem. Maybe my wizard can start tanking the mobs with my quarterstaff too. I mean, someone expecting my wizard to cast spells is really "treating me like an NPC". Clerics are able to contribute tons to a quest. My FVS can complete a quest far more reliably than a lot of the PUGs i've run with. Being told to babysit a player and sacrifice my enjoyment sucks. I've often left players to die as a form of character test. ***** and whine about me not babysitting them properly get's em squelched. A thank you for the res shows some consideration and i'm more than happy to sacrifice some of my enjoyment to help em out.

Again, this just coming from a new player on his first character. But it's becoming rather clear to me that first life, new players will just never be welcome in many groups, which does not bode well for the future of this game :(My main is a first life and will more than likely never get TRed. You're 100% accurate that there is a significant bias towards first life toons. I love messing with people who make those kind of assumptions.

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Again? I don't remember the first time.

Couldn't be more wrong. The only difference between a rogue splash and pure is 1 dc and 2 spell pen. That's it. In what world is missing 1 enchant dc WOEFULLY weak? What, 46 is uber while 45 is gimp to high heaven? Get your facts straight.

(The 46 and 45 are just random numbers. Point out the two consecutive numbers where the higher one is uber while the lower one is WOEFULLY weak.)

32-point builds have zero impact on wizards because 28pt builds can max int anyway. You get no additional int regardless of your build points.

It is my expectation, yes. It is also the expectation of the majority of the playerbase.

He also gains evasion and trapping skills. Consider the discussion of Harry fights. I just stand there like a statue without concern because aura + evasion easily keeps me going through his meteor swarms.

As for the part where you say 28-pt builds are "on the fringe of effectiveness" in epics, you are flat-out wrong. 28-pt builds do just fine in eHard content provided they start in a caster destiny. Once they make a little progress in a caster destiny they can faceroll eHard content.

Properly geared and twisted to the gills, a first-life enchantment-specced wizard can reach low-50s spell pen. It's much easier to build up some past lives instead, though; some of that gear is a pain to get.


I'm not sure why you've bought into the "splashed casters are GIMP!!!" mindset, but it is out of date. They haven't been gimp since destinies were introduced in U14.

Look, it's not you. It's the continual argument. Again, since we are in the New Player forum, assume first-life wizzy, 28-point build.

Spell Pen is based partly off of feats, enhancements, items, and caster levels. All things being equal, a WF has 4 points less of spell pen than I properly spec-ed elf AM. The best you're going to get for a first-lifer is a Spell Pen item. If you do a splash - BAM - you lose two caster levels right there.

On Epic Hard (which seems to be the norm for most epic runs these days), a first-lifer is on the ragged edge of Spell Pen. Five points makes a HUGE difference. Two levels of rogue (or rouge) and/or A WF toon (which is actually a bigger killer than the rouge/rogue levels) for spell pen. Take both, and you're really in the weeds.

Again: you're making a tradeoff. You're trading self-sufficiency for PUG CC. You want to solo - and I've said this many times - self-sufficient is the way to go. You get into a PUG? You're going to get a lot of angry melees wondering where the disco balls are, or why you can't get them to dance.

Then there are the saving throws, where you've sacrificed the caster capstone of +2 to INT for those two levels of rogue. Because of that, you're also taking a hit on SP. Now, much of this can be overcome with metamagics, but those cost; something else that also hurts with the SP drain with self-healing.

So yeah, I have a valid argument. Likewise, I'm not the one saying that arcanes MUST be self-sufficient - you are. I'm just the guy pointing out that virtually every avenue you go down with that argument has specific drawbacks in many situations. It is relevent to this thread, and relevent to this forum.

Anyone can sit there and advise a new player to do A, B, or C and recommend a 32-point build and three past lives and a specific player race. In my opinion, that borders on idiotic. You're essentially telling the new player that he has to spend money on the game to be good at it, and ignore levels 1 - 19 in getting there.

Is that *really* the advice you want to give?

Once more: I don't have a specific issue with splashes, or with self-sufficiency per se. They have specific benefits.

They also have drawbacks too.

Charononus
12-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Look, it's not you. It's the continual argument. Again, since we are in the New Player forum, assume first-life wizzy, 28-point build.

Spell Pen is based partly off of feats, enhancements, items, and caster levels. All things being equal, a WF has 4 points less of spell pen than I properly spec-ed elf AM. The best you're going to get for a first-lifer is a Spell Pen item. If you do a splash - BAM - you lose two caster levels right there.

On Epic Hard (which seems to be the norm for most epic runs these days), a first-lifer is on the ragged edge of Spell Pen. Five points makes a HUGE difference. Two levels of rogue (or rouge) and/or A WF toon (which is actually a bigger killer than the rouge/rogue levels) for spell pen. Take both, and you're really in the weeds.

Again: you're making a tradeoff. You're trading self-sufficiency for PUG CC. You want to solo - and I've said this many times - self-sufficient is the way to go. You get into a PUG? You're going to get a lot of angry melees wondering where the disco balls are, or why you can't get them to dance.

Then there are the saving throws, where you've sacrificed the caster capstone of +2 to INT for those two levels of rogue. Because of that, you're also taking a hit on SP. Now, much of this can be overcome with metamagics, but those cost; something else that also hurts with the SP drain with self-healing.

So yeah, I have a valid argument. Likewise, I'm not the one saying that arcanes MUST be self-sufficient - you are. I'm just the guy pointing out that virtually every avenue you go down with that argument has specific drawbacks in many situations. It is relevent to this thread, and relevent to this forum.

Anyone can sit there and advise a new player to do A, B, or C and recommend a 32-point build and three past lives and a specific player race. In my opinion, that borders on idiotic. You're essentially telling the new player that he has to spend money on the game to be good at it, and ignore levels 1 - 19 in getting there.

Is that *really* the advice you want to give?

Once more: I don't have a specific issue with splashes, or with self-sufficiency per se. They have specific benefits.

They also have drawbacks too.

Yes elves get more spell pen and that is great for a first life wiz. However archmage to my knowledge doesn't get any more spell pen than palemaster. The difference between enchantment dc's from a palemaster and am is one or two dc's I don't remember which. The dc difference isn't enough to worry about and if you have spell resistant enemies web is a much better option to cast.

HellShell
12-03-2012, 11:55 AM
For running Epics I have recently twisted in Rejuvenation Cocoon from Primal Avatar on my FVS. I find it great for jack rabbit casters since it has a long range, and works through obstacles / non line of sight. Typically enough to heal them over time if they have displacement on and jumping around.

Might be worth a whirl.

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 12:17 PM
Yes elves get more spell pen and that is great for a first life wiz. However archmage to my knowledge doesn't get any more spell pen than palemaster. The difference between enchantment dc's from a palemaster and am is one or two dc's I don't remember which. The dc difference isn't enough to worry about and if you have spell resistant enemies web is a much better option to cast.

True, but at epic levels you run into a multitude of problems with Web.

One: the drow have a very high DEX/reflex save. So it makes them difficult to ensnare. Plus, webs can be broken via a STR save, and there are a lot of critters with high STR. Second, devils teleport. You can ensnare them for a short bit, up until they teleport out of the web (I've seen this first-hand).

Devils and Drow are big players in endgame content these days. A lot of the new stuff has high STR mobs.

I mean, I use web situationally. The Cannith quests are GREAT for Web. But for a lot of content it comes down to bare-knuckling it with using Spell Pen to break SR.

Daemoneyes
12-03-2012, 01:31 PM
Here's my take fleshy wizards can self heal by going pm. If you can't use umd (first life ext) for heal scrolls, you need to be a pm or you are treating your cleric fvs ext the same as a hireling. Treating people like npc's is rude, the choice to be a fleshy am that cant heal scroll is rude the moment you join the party.

My English is far from perfect but i cant spot a single line where i said that healer should be treated like npc.

And no, i and no one else !needs! to be pm or tincan,
cause not every healer out there is so limited like you say.
Its called multitasking and skill, damage and heal is possible as clrc/fvs.
True its not as faceroll easy like only selfhealing and goin for damage
but it is much more effective.

And hey this is only pve, thats yawn at best without goin for damage and heal.
You should try some pvp games, this would cure your self centered lazyness. :cool:

Braegan
12-03-2012, 01:46 PM
Here's my take fleshy wizards can self heal by going pm. If you can't use umd (first life ext) for heal scrolls, you need to be a pm or you are treating your cleric fvs ext the same as a hireling. Treating people like npc's is rude, the choice to be a fleshy am that cant heal scroll is rude the moment you join the party.

That's a bit excessive.

A player may not have access to WF or just not like the race.

A player may likewise choose to go AM over PM because they want cheap Slas which help them stretch out their mana or they may just not like the concept of being a PM.

There's nothing rude about making those choices.

It would be a bit rude (for lack of better word) to dump con, not invest anything into self-preservation, not carry any form of self-healing, get one-shotted and scream for Hjeals!

I've recently run with a few fleshy AMs that do well in the arcane dept and keep themselves alive by buffing, twitch skills, and drinking pots to top off. Those type of players are always welcome in my groups and I've no problem tossing them a heal.

Daemoneyes
12-03-2012, 01:50 PM
The snarky answer here is to tell you to roll a cleric and play it as a heal bot. You'll figure out the angst real quick. Many clerics are told to only heal. That's a single spell and once you've cast it on a player twice, you know the outcome. The type of quest, foe, etc doesn't matter at all. Your wizard casts a much larger variety of spells, requires you to decide what spell to use (vs reflex/fort/will spell pen/AOE/single target/cc/instakill, etc ...) The jobs are not the same and healing is much more tedious/boring.

Clerics are able to contribute tons to a quest. My FVS can complete a quest far more reliably than a lot of the PUGs i've run with. Being told to babysit a player and sacrifice my enjoyment sucks. I've often left players to die as a form of character test. ***** and whine about me not babysitting them properly get's em squelched. A thank you for the res shows some consideration and i'm more than happy to sacrifice some of my enjoyment to help em out.
My main is a first life and will more than likely never get TRed. You're 100% accurate that there is a significant bias towards first life toons. I love messing with people who make those kind of assumptions.

No one tells clerics to only heal, thats just some stupid made up argument this bunch of Forum "healer" bring up.
Opposite is the fact, i have often to tell them to do more then just heal.
I encounter so often healer that only heal and have at the end or at the next shrine more then half their SP left...

@wizard
fod-net-wail-fod-fod-hold-fod-wail-fod...
did i already mention fod? :9
and at boss
dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot...
if it has to go fast
dot-dot-ray-ray-dot-dot-ray-ray-dot-dot...
broader spell selection doesnt mean you get to cast more different

@contribute
yeah so what?
a wizard contributes even more then your pimpsoul
should i now wait till the mobs killed you till i start cc them to make you more humble?

EllisDee37
12-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Spell Pen is based partly off of feats, enhancements, items, and caster levels. All things being equal, a WF has 4 points less of spell pen than I properly spec-ed elf AM. The best you're going to get for a first-lifer is a Spell Pen item. If you do a splash - BAM - you lose two caster levels right there.
[...]
On Epic Hard (which seems to be the norm for most epic runs these days), a first-lifer is on the ragged edge of Spell Pen.A first life splash wizard can easily hit the 38 spell pen needed for epic hard. Here are the benchmarks:

30 Epic Normal
38 Epic Hard
54 Epic Elite

First life, 28pt splash build has:

18 base
8 feats
5 autogrants
3 piercing
2 item (magewright's spectacles, super easy to get and useful; tailor-made for a first-lifer)
2 enhancements
---
38

There is no functional difference between 38 and 43, assuming the extra 5 spell pen you're talking about. Both are useless for epic elite, and both can roflstomp epic hard.


Anyone can sit there and advise a new player to do A, B, or C and recommend a 32-point build and three past lives and a specific player race. In my opinion, that borders on idiotic. You're essentially telling the new player that he has to spend money on the game to be good at it, and ignore levels 1 - 19 in getting there.All wizards regardless of build points can start with 18 int, and should. 32pt builds add nothing to a wizard, really, and I certainly don't recommend that new players get 32pt builds.

My builds are specifically designed for new players to not have to spend money. I think the real disservice is telling new players that splashed wizards are gimp. They are not. The thing is, vets don't care about traps and locked chests, but new players really, really do. That's why splashing two rogue on a wizard is such a perfect build for new players.

As for int, let's talk actual numbers. My 28pt first-life splash build for new players (linked in signature) hits 46 int with no ship buffs, no yugo pots, no twists, and only a +1 int tome. With the capstone you have a +2 advantage. Do you have 48 (or more) int?

Iaga
12-03-2012, 03:34 PM
No one tells clerics to only heal, thats just some stupid made up argument this bunch of Forum "healer" bring up.
Opposite is the fact, i have often to tell them to do more then just heal.
I encounter so often healer that only heal and have at the end or at the next shrine more then half their SP left... And i've been told to not waste my SP on greater command or implode - it comes down to opinion - we both have one so i'm not even going to bother making an argument for one side or the other ...


@wizard
fod-net-wail-fod-fod-hold-fod-wail-fod...
did i already mention fod? :9
and at boss
dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot-dot...
if it has to go fast
dot-dot-ray-ray-dot-dot-ray-ray-dot-dot...
broader spell selection doesnt mean you get to cast more different
I disagree. Holding the low willed and fingering the low fort, deciding when to use web and when to use disco ball. Do you AOE an entire room or single target the casters and let the melee engage the rest. There are a lot more considerations to make as an arcane than a divine who has been asked to focus on healing.

@contribute
yeah so what?
a wizard contributes even more then your pimpsoul
should i now wait till the mobs killed you till i start cc them to make you more humble?I never commented on contribution - i commented on consideration. Yes my soul can heal and i'm happy to do that if i know a player appreciates me doing so. I will not heal people who assume i'll sacrifice my game enjoyment for theirs with no consideration to me doing so. [mind you, i don't agree with your contribution comment, but that's another discussion entirely]

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 04:11 PM
A first life splash wizard can easily hit the 38 spell pen needed for epic hard. Here are the benchmarks:

30 Epic Normal
38 Epic Hard
54 Epic Elite

First life, 28pt splash build has:

18 base
8 feats
5 autogrants
3 piercing
2 item (magewright's spectacles, super easy to get and useful; tailor-made for a first-lifer)
2 enhancements
---
38

There is no functional difference between 38 and 43, assuming the extra 5 spell pen you're talking about. Both are useless for epic elite, and both can roflstomp epic hard.

Back up the truck. First and foremost, you only get Epic Spell Pen (your additional +4 in the Feats entry) somewhere around lvl 21 or 24. You hit 20, you're in epics - which gives you a starting Spell Pen in epics from feats at +4.

Secondly - what, specifically is an "autogrant?" If this has anything to do with Epic Destinies, it needs to be ruled out immediatly. Otherwise, you cannot say the following:


My builds are specifically designed for new players to not have to spend money.

So, realistically, this is what you're talking on a splash:

18 base,
4 from feats,
2 from item (agree with you on this one),
3 enhancements.

So that's about 27 spell pen. You hit a whopping 31 when you're lvl 21...if that's the route you go.

Now on a pure WF AM:

20 base,
4 from feats,
2 from item ,
3 enhancements.

So that's about 29 spell pen. You hit a 33 when you're lvl 21 which is a respectable number.


Contrast these with an pure wizzy elf:

20 base,
4 from feats,
2 from item,
7 from enhancements.

Now you're at 33 Spell Pen at lvl 20, and 37 at lvl 21 (again, if you choose Epic Spell Pen).

Big, big difference from the splash, and about 4 pts better than a WF.

As for INT - unless you have some mystical, magical formula for INT that somehow seperates what someone would normally do for a wizzy (and compensates for the 2 pts you lost not going with the capstone), I'd *really* like to see it.

EllisDee37
12-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Back up the truck. First and foremost, you only get Epic Spell Pen (your additional +4 in the Feats entry) somewhere around lvl 21 or 24. You hit 20, you're in epics - which gives you a starting Spell Pen in epics from feats at +4.

Secondly - what, specifically is an "autogrant?" If this has anything to do with Epic Destinies, it needs to be ruled out immediatly. Otherwise, you cannot say the following:If you're ruling out destinies, I don't know what to tell you other than you're gimping your caster beyond all reason. The capstone is a teeny tiny drop in the bucket compared to the power that destinies bring to the table.


Big, big difference from the splash, and about 4 pts better than a WF.Yes, if you severely hamstring yourself by not getting destinies, then yeah, the capstone matters. Otherwise, outside of epic elite the capstone is irrelevant.


As for INT - unless you have some mystical, magical formula for INT that somehow seperates what someone would normally do for a wizzy (and compensates for the 2 pts you lost not going with the capstone), I'd *really* like to see it.18 base
6 levelups
1 Feat
6 item
4 enhancements
2 lich
5 magister
1 exceptional (any epic augment slot)
2 insightful (epic spyglass was made for this build)
1 tome (+1)
---
46 (18 int mod)
2 ship buff
2 tome (+3)
2 yugo pot
---
52 (21 int mod)

For +2 insightful int, until cove rolls around with its tasty spyglass you can farm up a Seal of House Szind with +2 insightful int or slot it into any ToD ring.

EllisDee37
12-03-2012, 05:04 PM
2 from item (agree with you on this one),Is this available from F2P quests or are you asking new players to spend TP on a pack to get it?

There are basic assumptions built into the "free to play" concept. First is that people will get vale of twilight. Second is that people will get destinies. Those two purchases add more power than anything else you could spend TP on.

The point of a free to play build is to give people a framework for a character that can grow into a viable one as they start getting more and more content. Otherwise, what's the point of getting to 20 anyway? To run a bajillion harbor epics on eNormal to get enough tokens to TR? Any cruddy build can do that.

Telling people that splashing a wizard will WOEFULLY gimp them is simply wrong. It does not stand up to scrutiny.

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 05:28 PM
If you're ruling out destinies, I don't know what to tell you other than you're gimping your caster beyond all reason. The capstone is a teeny tiny drop in the bucket compared to the power that destinies bring to the table.

Yes, if you severely hamstring yourself by not getting destinies, then yeah, the capstone matters. Otherwise, outside of epic elite the capstone is irrelevant.


Ok, again, here's the issue I have especially in this thread, and in this forum:

1) You gimp yourself if you don't take WF and AM.
2) You gimp yourself if you don't go fleshy PM.
3) You gimp yourself if you are not self-sufficient (I've kinda proved the whole self-sufficient build thing is not everything it's cracked-up to be).
4) You gimp yourself if you don't have EDs.
5) In order to be decent with a self-sufficient and/or splash toon, you MUST take epic destinies.

A WF costs money. Epic Destinies cost money. The advice being given here almost equates to "pay to win." That's the message being sent to new players. And in this specific thread, about wizzy / sorc healing, the whole self-sufficiency comes down to, basically, spend money otherwise you won't get healed.

The stuff with the INT - again - not anything different than I couldn't do with a wizzy...if I spent money to do it.

A general consumer is going to come in, play for a little bit, get hooked on the product, and then they spend more money. Giving advice to spend money right out the chute for all of this stuff will turn people off and/or dimish interest later on. The player quickly realizes that it is a moneymaking scheme, not really focused on their genuine enjoyment, and thus will drop the game entirely.

It's like paying extra money to give yourself a bunch of free moves when you're playing a computer at chess. Yeah, the attraction becomes strong when you're frustrated because you get your a** handed to you in every game. However, once you realize that you're not *actually* beating the computer, or learning how to play chess better, you walk away: the allure of challenge vanishes.

Same thing with 32-point builds, Epic Destinies, and WF AMs.

It is counterproductive.

I don't really have a problem with splashes, or having WF AMs, fleshy PMs, self-sufficient builds, and so on. I don't invest myself in any specific way of doing things other than not having to continuously have to shell out more money so as to be successful with more content. I pay for VIP, and I think that is enough for now. That being said, I believe it to be a serious disservice to offer advice to a new player that excludes the base playing mechanics of the game, which is what many (including you) seem to be doing.

Again: I got nothing against you personally. I have a problem with the mindset.

squishwizzy
12-03-2012, 05:43 PM
Is this available from F2P quests or are you asking new players to spend TP on a pack to get it?

There are basic assumptions built into the "free to play" concept. First is that people will get vale of twilight. Second is that people will get destinies. Those two purchases add more power than anything else you could spend TP on.

The point of a free to play build is to give people a framework for a character that can grow into a viable one as they start getting more and more content. Otherwise, what's the point of getting to 20 anyway? To run a bajillion harbor epics on eNormal to get enough tokens to TR? Any cruddy build can do that.

Telling people that splashing a wizard will WOEFULLY gimp them is simply wrong. It does not stand up to scrutiny.

Never said Free to Play. Turbine sells content. That's what they make their money on. No problem telling people to purchase adventure packs - many of which contain epic quests.

Telling they that in order to be good in epic content the need to have EDs or a WF toon? Ummm, sorry no. That's optional.

And lets say you go Elf AM, and dump the +2 spell pen item. Fine. That still gives you 31/35 spell pen in epic hard, which is do-able. But the WF PM drops to 29/33, and the splash drops to 25/29. Not exactly what I'd call stellar numbers...

You lose self-sufficiency, but you are able to handle decent CC in an EH raid.

The only thing I'm saying about splashing a wizard is that it makes it gimp in PUGs. You seem to want to ignore that fine point. You want to use a bunch of overblown numbers to try and make your case, knock yourself out. I'm just pointing out that you a) are paying out of pocket for those stats, and b) offering a slightly more realistic view of a minimal build in epic content.

I've got no problem is someone wants to play your Pale Trapper solo. If that's what makes them happy, the more power to them. But you'd better tell them about the limitations and overall cost as they get to endgame.

That's all.

EllisDee37
12-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Giving advice to spend money right out the chuteI have never advocated this. You don't need destinies until you hit level 20, which for the typical new player will be months after they start playing. My builds require zero TP spent right out of the gate, and work just fine without TP for months. Ironically, you're the one who spent TP right out of the gate. I personally didn't spend a dime for weeks -- at which point I spent $6 -- and then didn't spend any more money for months and months after that.


Same thing with 32-point builds, Epic Destinies, and WF AMs.Okay, seriously, what is your deal with 32pt builds? They add nothing to a wizard.


The only thing I'm saying about splashing a wizard is that it makes it gimp in PUGs. You seem to want to ignore that fine point. You want to use a bunch of overblown numbers to try and make your case, knock yourself out. I'm just pointing out that you a) are paying out of pocket for those stats, and b) offering a slightly more realistic view of a minimal build in epic content.No, it does not. THAT is the disservice, you preaching this misinformation that spalshed wizards are gimp in pugs. It's especially ironic (and incredibly infuriating) because your wizard is ACTUALLY gimp despite being a pure wizard elf, whereas my human splash is not.


I've got no problem is someone wants to play your Pale Trapper solo. If that's what makes them happy, the more power to them. But you'd better tell them about the limitations and overall cost as they get to endgame.

That's all.I do, very clearly. You, on the otherhand, are arguing in bad faith. You're saying that your gimp wizard would be even MORE gimp if you splashed, and therefore splashing makes you gimp. No, it's just you.

Charononus
12-03-2012, 06:02 PM
Ok, again, here's the issue I have especially in this thread, and in this forum:

1) You gimp yourself if you don't take WF and AM.
Not really nothing stopping a wf pm that I know of.


2) You gimp yourself if you don't go fleshy PM.
yes you really do, why would you intentionally make yourself reliant on another person. Yes there are times you may still need a heal but....


3) You gimp yourself if you are not self-sufficient (I've kinda proved the whole self-sufficient build thing is not everything it's cracked-up to be).
Where? Honestly my toons are self sufficient and have sacrificed nothing to be so.


4) You gimp yourself if you don't have EDs.
Yes you do. ED's are a massive p2w system, there is nothing in the game that will make you more powerful. The merits of that aside if you want to play post 20 you are gimped without them.


5) In order to be decent with a self-sufficient and/or splash toon, you MUST take epic destinies.
wrong any toon post 20


A WF costs money. Epic Destinies cost money. The advice being given here almost equates to "pay to win." That's the message being sent to new players. And in this specific thread, about wizzy / sorc healing, the whole self-sufficiency comes down to, basically, spend money otherwise you won't get healed.
a human wizard palemaster costs no money to play and is very self sufficient.


The stuff with the INT - again - not anything different than I couldn't do with a wizzy...if I spent money to do it.

Yes the things he mentioned require owning adventure packs, which you would need to get to 20 anyways and have things to do once you're there. Turbine needs money to keep the doors open, encouraging people to buy packs is part of the model.


I pay for VIP, and I think that is enough for now. That being said, I believe it to be a serious disservice to offer advice to a new player that excludes the base playing mechanics of the game, which is what many (including you) seem to be doing.

Where is a base mechanic ignored? That these toons can be tougher require less from other players babysitting them and complete quests easier?



Telling they that in order to be good in epic content the need to have EDs or a WF toon? Ummm, sorry no. That's optional.

Like it or not as said above epic destinies are here, they need to be paid for to use, and they are the single most powerful item in the store.


And lets say you go Elf AM, and dump the +2 spell pen item. Fine. That still gives you 31/35 spell pen in epic hard, which is do-able. But the WF PM drops to 29/33, and the splash drops to 25/29. Not exactly what I'd call stellar numbers...

You lose self-sufficiency, but you are able to handle decent CC in an EH raid.

The only thing I'm saying about splashing a wizard is that it makes it gimp in PUGs. You seem to want to ignore that fine point. You want to use a bunch of overblown numbers to try and make your case, knock yourself out. I'm just pointing out that you a) are paying out of pocket for those stats, and b) offering a slightly more realistic view of a minimal build in epic content.
.
Note: I'm not a fan of paletrapper builds, I like the wiz capstone, however no one has ever given a good reason for fleshy am rather than pm other than flavor. The benefits just aren't there unless you already have some good gear to be able to heal scroll yourself and even then I think it's a flavor decision not nessicarily a good decision.

EllisDee37
12-03-2012, 10:09 PM
Yes the things he mentioned require owning adventure packs, which you would need to get to 20 anyways and have things to do once you're there. Turbine needs money to keep the doors open, encouraging people to buy packs is part of the model.Well put.

Here's what it boils down to: My "free to play" builds are 100% FREE to roll up and start playing with for weeks and weeks, if not months. During that time it is assumed that if you're into the game you'll start buying packs, either by purchasing turbine points or by grinding them out via favor. (I even have a handy guide for grinding out favor on other servers for the first time bonuses.)

By the time you finally get to 20, you will have been playing long enough to no longer be a new player. You will likely be hooked on the game -- else why did you keep playing to 20? -- and then buying epic destinies will seem like a logical thing to do. Truth be told I doubt many people in this situation would actually buy epic destinies; instead, it's far more likely that they will do the same as I did, which is buy the $30 base version of the expansion pack, which includes epic destinies.

I just can't wrap my head around a player who began his DDO experience paying money for VIP -- which I would never have done in a million years, paying money right out of the gate -- arguing that asking a new player to buy the expansion months after they start playing is unreasonable. I really, truly cannot wrap my head around that argument.

And when they do get the xpack, their splashed wizard will have far more power (more spell pen, higher dcs) than a pure elf without destinies. Another point I don't understand is trying to say that they will be 4 spell pen behind from level 20 to level 21 because they can't take epic spell pen until 21. Uh, yeah. And that matters how?

squishwizzy
12-04-2012, 01:35 AM
Wow, where do I start with this?


I have never advocated this. You don't need destinies until you hit level 20, which for the typical new player will be months after they start playing. My builds require zero TP spent right out of the gate, and work just fine without TP for months. Ironically, you're the one who spent TP right out of the gate. I personally didn't spend a dime for weeks -- at which point I spent $6 -- and then didn't spend any more money for months and months after that.

The you say:



Here's what it boils down to: My "free to play" builds are 100% FREE to roll up and start playing with for weeks and weeks, if not months. During that time it is assumed that if you're into the game you'll start buying packs, either by purchasing turbine points or by grinding them out via favor. (I even have a handy guide for grinding out favor on other servers for the first time bonuses.)


Call me crazy, but that's not exactly what I'd call "free to play." Yeah, it's "free to play" unless you want to run epics...then, notsofree t oplay.

Your definition of "free" make you a fine candidate for the US Congress, or any other elected office...




Okay, seriously, what is your deal with 32pt builds? They add nothing to a wizard.


The first recommendation that I usually hear out of anyone on how to play a good class is you go 32-point build, right off the bat. In fact, if I recall correctly, you said you couldn't make a good rouge without a 32-point build because you - specifically - couldn't make it work.

Correctly me on that if I am wrong.

Regardless, it is not good new player advice.



No, it does not. THAT is the disservice, you preaching this misinformation that spalshed wizards are gimp in pugs. It's especially ironic (and incredibly infuriating) because your wizard is ACTUALLY gimp despite being a pure wizard elf, whereas my human splash is not.


They are in many instances. The numbers show it. Many PUGs want enchantment CC, or are very comfortable with enchantment CC. The numbers you boast were highly inflated and totally out of touch with reality. Web is nice, but is not a cure all for other forms of CC. Necro is nice, but also has drawbacks.

And then there is the problem of the whole "I gotta buy epic destinies to do epic quests" thing. Right now, a pure wizzy elf can do epic quests with enchantment CC, with little to no problems. No paying extra money for EDs. You, however, sacrifice no fail scoll healing (which you don't need anyways).

My wizzy does not need EDs. I.ve used him to farm for at least two True Hearts of Wood. And I'm still running epics on EH...not much of a problem.


I do, very clearly. You, on the otherhand, are arguing in bad faith. You're saying that your gimp wizard would be even MORE gimp if you splashed, and therefore splashing makes you gimp. No, it's just you.

Yeah, uh huh.

As I've said before - and you don't want to acknowledge this - something like your Pale trapper is nice for solo work. You start running in PUGs, you're going to have problems. I've given the numbers - realistic numbers. You just want to stamp your feet and say it ain't so.

You can fall back on necro, but then again so can a pure wizzy. A fleshy PM can also do enchantment better than one of your splashes as well.


Yes you do. ED's are a massive p2w system, there is nothing in the game that will make you more powerful. The merits of that aside if you want to play post 20 you are gimped without them.

Thanks for making my point for me.

Again, don't need them. You definately need them for EE, but on my server I'm not seeing a lot of call for that.



a human wizard palemaster costs no money to play and is very self sufficient.


Great. If you're a VIP, and not really interested in buying Warforged, you advice is: you've only got PM. So whgen you offer the followng:


Yes the things he mentioned require owning adventure packs, which you would need to get to 20 anyways and have things to do once you're there. Turbine needs money to keep the doors open, encouraging people to buy packs is part of the model.

Also realize that people get a little turned-off by being nickled-and-dimed for every feature. Or some people don't go out and buy every expansion, or feature to the game. These are generally new and/or casual players, whom you will personally turn off by saying you have to purchase Epic Destines to be able to run epic.

It's up there with coming into a New Player forum and recommending a build that requires three past live to make happen - not exactly helpful to a new player who is trying to get through the first one.



Where is a base mechanic ignored? That these toons can be tougher require less from other players babysitting them and complete quests easier?


Where do I start with this one?

Your remarks belie a complete disconnect with learning the basic mechanics of a game...pretty much any game.

I work in software. I started back when a 2 MHz Motorola 8-bit processor was "gee wiz" stuff. I can go all McGuyver on things like computers and electronics because I have that depth of background. I had to work with what I had. As technology progressed, I was able to re-apply those principles to more advanced stuff. Yeah, the newer technology made my life easier, but much of what I learned in the early days still really applies.

So I find it ever amusing that a lot of young adults coming out of college need to actually be mentored in how to write software properly to avoid a lot of problems that they assumed the technology covered. The reality is that the technology doesn't cover it, and in many ways limits them on how they can get things done. So I end up having to teach them - me, the old dinosaur of software development - the right way of doing things. Because I had to work with limitations, knew how to get around them, and make things work where limitations existed.

The same principle applies here. Leaning to heavily on the nicities is a huge trap. You don't know the basics, you're hamstrung. The advice from some of you is to push people into EDs because, essentially, you yourself can't think of any other way of making things work. Just like specifying that any fleshy wizzy MUST be a PM because others are "gimp" or need too much "support."

Just like the guy who argued with me that a 28-point rogue couldn't be effective. They can. I run one in EH quests right now. It does a pretty fair job.



I like the wiz capstone, however no one has ever given a good reason for fleshy am rather than pm other than flavor. The benefits just aren't there unless you already have some good gear to be able to heal scroll yourself and even then I think it's a flavor decision not nessicarily a good decision.

Which, unless you purchase Warforged for an extra cost, is the only arcane flavor available...according to the advice often given by people like you.

Want AM? Gotta go WF for quickened reconstruct.

Want a Sorc? Gotta go WF for the Reconstruct. Granted, the high CHR on a Sorc makes a fleshy a little more desireable, but why would you want to scroll heal when you can do Reconstruct in the heat of battle. So, WF is better.

Which leaves you with PM for anything that doesn't require a WF.

That leaves one lousy arcane type. That isn't exactly what I'd call "variety." And after a while, people will get bored with the lack of variety, and move on. Because, if they are going to spend their money, it is not on a game where the variety id dictated by a bunch of people who have made everything cookie-cutter, and who will penalize you for not goign the direction they think is best.

You know, like not healing fleshy AMs.

They'll go somewhere else.

It might exmplain why some of these servers are having "population problems" (as I heard it being defined).

Starp
12-04-2012, 06:29 AM
<snip>

+1

Ushurak
12-04-2012, 08:26 AM
Ok, again, here's the issue I have especially in this thread, and in this forum:

1) You gimp yourself if you don't take WF and AM.
2) You gimp yourself if you don't go fleshy PM.
3) You gimp yourself if you are not self-sufficient (I've kinda proved the whole self-sufficient build thing is not everything it's cracked-up to be).
4) You gimp yourself if you don't have EDs.
5) In order to be decent with a self-sufficient and/or splash toon, you MUST take epic destinies.

A WF costs money. Epic Destinies cost money. The advice being given here almost equates to "pay to win." That's the message being sent to new players. And in this specific thread, about wizzy / sorc healing, the whole self-sufficiency comes down to, basically, spend money otherwise you won't get healed.

The stuff with the INT - again - not anything different than I couldn't do with a wizzy...if I spent money to do it.

A general consumer is going to come in, play for a little bit, get hooked on the product, and then they spend more money. Giving advice to spend money right out the chute for all of this stuff will turn people off and/or dimish interest later on. The player quickly realizes that it is a moneymaking scheme, not really focused on their genuine enjoyment, and thus will drop the game entirely.

It's like paying extra money to give yourself a bunch of free moves when you're playing a computer at chess. Yeah, the attraction becomes strong when you're frustrated because you get your a** handed to you in every game. However, once you realize that you're not *actually* beating the computer, or learning how to play chess better, you walk away: the allure of challenge vanishes.

Same thing with 32-point builds, Epic Destinies, and WF AMs.

It is counterproductive.

I don't really have a problem with splashes, or having WF AMs, fleshy PMs, self-sufficient builds, and so on. I don't invest myself in any specific way of doing things other than not having to continuously have to shell out more money so as to be successful with more content. I pay for VIP, and I think that is enough for now. That being said, I believe it to be a serious disservice to offer advice to a new player that excludes the base playing mechanics of the game, which is what many (including you) seem to be doing.

Again: I got nothing against you personally. I have a problem with the mindset.


Ok...while most of what you say on here is correct, the fleshling PM is free (I know you didn't say it costs...just reiterating the point) and a very effective caster build even if 1st life 28 pnt build. Drow can be free...let's face it...400 favor is nothing.

Warforged is a bit trickier agreed. I believe they are now down to 800 TP though (could be wrong, I may be thinking of a sale that went on a while back), if I am correct, just save up TP (favor grind) like others have had to do since the game went F2P. This isn't to say that you MUST play a WF...just giving advice for a work around.

If you plan on playing past level 20...which you probably are unless you park all of your toons at level 20; Then yes, you will need EDs eventually... can't TR, you either have to buy a HoW or grind for tokens which takes you past 20 (ridiculous remark of course...token farming isn't that hard and you can usually get 20 by the time you are 21 if you focus on it).

Here is the biggest problem with this entire commentary:
While DDO is F2P, it is very well known right upon entry that some things will be locked out to you...that is the difference in paying for something and getting something for free...QUALITY!

WF has never been a F2P race just as Monk and FS has never been a F2P class. There are just some things that you are going to have to deal with if you do not wish to pay for higher quality.

If we are talking about EDs, then we have moved out of the realm of New Player status...it isn't even to be considered.

I do not think anyone expects and entirely new player to be self sufficient. I put more of a burden on Veteran players to teach new players how to be self sufficient (as much as a particular class/race combo can be).

Again, the biggest argument you make (pay to win) is null and void due to the fact that it is ALWAYS understood that the more you pay or at least IF you pay in general will always yield higher quality than FREE...in RL as well as in MMORPGs.

Charononus
12-04-2012, 02:07 PM
Wow, where do I start with this?



The you say:



Call me crazy, but that's not exactly what I'd call "free to play." Yeah, it's "free to play" unless you want to run epics...then, notsofree t oplay.

Your definition of "free" make you a fine candidate for the US Congress, or any other elected office...




The first recommendation that I usually hear out of anyone on how to play a good class is you go 32-point build, right off the bat. In fact, if I recall correctly, you said you couldn't make a good rouge without a 32-point build because you - specifically - couldn't make it work.

Correctly me on that if I am wrong.

Regardless, it is not good new player advice.



They are in many instances. The numbers show it. Many PUGs want enchantment CC, or are very comfortable with enchantment CC. The numbers you boast were highly inflated and totally out of touch with reality. Web is nice, but is not a cure all for other forms of CC. Necro is nice, but also has drawbacks.

And then there is the problem of the whole "I gotta buy epic destinies to do epic quests" thing. Right now, a pure wizzy elf can do epic quests with enchantment CC, with little to no problems. No paying extra money for EDs. You, however, sacrifice no fail scoll healing (which you don't need anyways).

My wizzy does not need EDs. I.ve used him to farm for at least two True Hearts of Wood. And I'm still running epics on EH...not much of a problem.



Yeah, uh huh.

As I've said before - and you don't want to acknowledge this - something like your Pale trapper is nice for solo work. You start running in PUGs, you're going to have problems. I've given the numbers - realistic numbers. You just want to stamp your feet and say it ain't so.

You can fall back on necro, but then again so can a pure wizzy. A fleshy PM can also do enchantment better than one of your splashes as well.



Thanks for making my point for me.

Again, don't need them. You definately need them for EE, but on my server I'm not seeing a lot of call for that.



Great. If you're a VIP, and not really interested in buying Warforged, you advice is: you've only got PM. So whgen you offer the followng:



Also realize that people get a little turned-off by being nickled-and-dimed for every feature. Or some people don't go out and buy every expansion, or feature to the game. These are generally new and/or casual players, whom you will personally turn off by saying you have to purchase Epic Destines to be able to run epic.

It's up there with coming into a New Player forum and recommending a build that requires three past live to make happen - not exactly helpful to a new player who is trying to get through the first one.



Where do I start with this one?

Your remarks belie a complete disconnect with learning the basic mechanics of a game...pretty much any game.

I work in software. I started back when a 2 MHz Motorola 8-bit processor was "gee wiz" stuff. I can go all McGuyver on things like computers and electronics because I have that depth of background. I had to work with what I had. As technology progressed, I was able to re-apply those principles to more advanced stuff. Yeah, the newer technology made my life easier, but much of what I learned in the early days still really applies.

So I find it ever amusing that a lot of young adults coming out of college need to actually be mentored in how to write software properly to avoid a lot of problems that they assumed the technology covered. The reality is that the technology doesn't cover it, and in many ways limits them on how they can get things done. So I end up having to teach them - me, the old dinosaur of software development - the right way of doing things. Because I had to work with limitations, knew how to get around them, and make things work where limitations existed.

The same principle applies here. Leaning to heavily on the nicities is a huge trap. You don't know the basics, you're hamstrung. The advice from some of you is to push people into EDs because, essentially, you yourself can't think of any other way of making things work. Just like specifying that any fleshy wizzy MUST be a PM because others are "gimp" or need too much "support."

Just like the guy who argued with me that a 28-point rogue couldn't be effective. They can. I run one in EH quests right now. It does a pretty fair job.




Which, unless you purchase Warforged for an extra cost, is the only arcane flavor available...according to the advice often given by people like you.

Want AM? Gotta go WF for quickened reconstruct.

Want a Sorc? Gotta go WF for the Reconstruct. Granted, the high CHR on a Sorc makes a fleshy a little more desireable, but why would you want to scroll heal when you can do Reconstruct in the heat of battle. So, WF is better.

Which leaves you with PM for anything that doesn't require a WF.

That leaves one lousy arcane type. That isn't exactly what I'd call "variety." And after a while, people will get bored with the lack of variety, and move on. Because, if they are going to spend their money, it is not on a game where the variety id dictated by a bunch of people who have made everything cookie-cutter, and who will penalize you for not goign the direction they think is best.

You know, like not healing fleshy AMs.

They'll go somewhere else.

It might exmplain why some of these servers are having "population problems" (as I heard it being defined).

First of all, the fact you can write a program has no bearing on this conversation, it's the same as if you dug ditches for a living.

I'm sorry that you don't like having to buy any thing but even subscription games require you to buy expansions. Turbine just gives a choice of buy just the content you want or to go with a sub. The epic destiny system is part of the expansion and should be bought by everyone that's going to play post 20. And while a first life new player will still need some help sometimes with a pm, they will be stronger on that toon than a fleshy am. So much so that it's ridiculous in fact.

Charononus
12-04-2012, 02:10 PM
You can actually buy everything in the game with farmed tp if you have the patience. I don't but it is possible.

EllisDee37
12-04-2012, 03:55 PM
The first recommendation that I usually hear out of anyone on how to play a good class is you go 32-point build, right off the bat. In fact, if I recall correctly, you said you couldn't make a good rouge without a 32-point build because you - specifically - couldn't make it work.

Correctly me on that if I am wrong.

Regardless, it is not good new player advice.Rogue builds have nothing to do with wizards. Try to get this through your head: You do NOT need 32pt builds to roll up a wizard because they add NOTHING to wizards. (Though for you they'd help because your hp are so low. My 28pt first life build gets to 500 hp for epics.)


They are in many instances. The numbers show it. Many PUGs want enchantment CC, or are very comfortable with enchantment CC. The numbers you boast were highly inflated and totally out of touch with reality. Web is nice, but is not a cure all for other forms of CC. Necro is nice, but also has drawbacks.I do not advocate web. I advocate enchantment, and I flat-out don't believe your claims about how a pale trapper can't do enchantment cc. My experience is quite the opposite. In fact, based on your wizard's very low int, I'd wager my pale trapper ends up with the same or better enchant dcs even before destinies. (My wizard had a lousy 40 int at 20 before the xpack launched, 4 higher than your 36.)


And then there is the problem of the whole "I gotta buy epic destinies to do epic quests" thing. Right now, a pure wizzy elf can do epic quests with enchantment CC, with little to no problems. No paying extra money for EDs. You, however, sacrifice no fail scoll healing (which you don't need anyways).If you mean "no problems" as "need to have a cleric strapped to your back," then sure.

And you LIE. You're saying no extra money to run eHard. That means no VIP, no adventuire packs, no gear. And that's clearly incorrect. What it boils down to is that you are drowning in entitled-VIP-syndrome where the money you pay is justified, but you pout about having to spend more money for the xpack so you feel it's not a valid purchase.

Most new players won't be VIP, they'll start free and end up premium. They'll buy the xpack base version once they hit 20 and will be far more effective than your wizard. And when you add up how much they spent compared to you, they will have spent far less and ALL of their alts will be leaps and bounds more powerful than all of yours. And even more to the point, they money they spent won't be spent until they've been playing the game for a while and know that they want to keep playing.


My wizzy does not need EDs. I.ve used him to farm for at least two True Hearts of Wood. And I'm still running epics on EH...not much of a problem.Your wizzy has 36 int. That's...not good. It's no wonder you don't think necro is all that; I bet your finger doesn't insta-kill eHard drow even 50% of the time.


As I've said before - and you don't want to acknowledge this - something like your Pale trapper is nice for solo work. You start running in PUGs, you're going to have problems. I've given the numbers - realistic numbers. You just want to stamp your feet and say it ain't so.You have no numbers. Post them and let's compare.


If we are talking about EDs, then we have moved out of the realm of New Player status...it isn't even to be considered.He is apparently incapable of understanding this simple and self-evident fact.

squishwizzy
12-06-2012, 11:33 AM
First of all, the fact you can write a program has no bearing on this conversation, it's the same as if you dug ditches for a living.


It is if you don't know how to use a shovel.


I'm sorry that you don't like having to buy any thing but even subscription games require you to buy expansions. Turbine just gives a choice of buy just the content you want or to go with a sub. The epic destiny system is part of the expansion and should be bought by everyone that's going to play post 20. And while a first life new player will still need some help sometimes with a pm, they will be stronger on that toon than a fleshy am. So much so that it's ridiculous in fact.

BZZZT.

Wrong.

First, this is not Turbine's problem - this is a problem with you. Turbine allows people without EDs to play epic content. However, Turbine has no control over the community that plays the game. And if people like you start specifying that, in order to run epics, you *MUST* have EDs, then you're going to turn off new players right, then, and there.

Just like Turbine does not specify a minimum HP limit on characters that enter specific quests on specific difficulties. PUG leaders often do.

They may pay for adventure packs, and they may pay for additional character slots when they go premium. Or they might just go VIP. But then, then they reach epic levels, and they have people telling them that "well, you need to have Epic Destinies to even be good in epic content," a huge chunk of that crowd is going to think that the game is nothing more than a money-making scheme that is rigged at every turn such as to extract money from them. They'll lose interest, they'll leave and not come back.

I'm baiscally getting the impression here that the only way you and many others here can actually be successful at this game is to have someone develop an "easy" button for you. You spend the money so that you can continue your sense of dominating this game, when the reality is that you're just taking the path of least resistence.

And then you offer advice to do the same.

I'm really not having a problem running any of my toons on content all they way up to EH. I don't see a lot of people putting up LFM for EE content, where EDs may or may not be mandatory.

As for "powerful" characters? Pffth! You can't seem to make a good one without running to EDs in order to make it happen...so your assessments are somewhat suspect.

danzig138
12-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Again? I don't remember the first time. He probably means every time you post.

It is also the expectation of the majority of the playerbase.Cite, or are you blowing smoke again (like I cant' guess)?

squishwizzy
12-06-2012, 12:08 PM
Rogue builds have nothing to do with wizards. Try to get this through your head: You do NOT need 32pt builds to roll up a wizard because they add NOTHING to wizards. (Though for you they'd help because your hp are so low. My 28pt first life build gets to 500 hp for epics.)

Nice dodge.

The point is still that your advice is somewhat suspect. Your point of view is such that you MUST buy a bunch of optional stuff. Some of your previous advice makes that pretty clear.

As for saying you don't need 32-point builds to roll up a wizard as they add "nothing" to the class: really?

As if adding more points into CON and CHR, or maybe even STR doesn't "help"? Really?

You know, there is more to running a wizzy than base INT, right?

All I'm saying is that telling someone that they MUST do a 32-point build - which you've done in the past - is not good advice for a new player. You need to manage what they have in order to be good with the game.


I do not advocate web. I advocate enchantment, and I flat-out don't believe your claims about how a pale trapper can't do enchantment cc. My experience is quite the opposite. In fact, based on your wizard's very low int, I'd wager my pale trapper ends up with the same or better enchant dcs even before destinies. (My wizard had a lousy 40 int at 20 before the xpack launched, 4 higher than your 36.)

The worst-case numbers bear that out. In specific situations, your lovely Pale Trapper is "gimp" when it comes to enchantment CC. So, you solution to bypass that problem is to buy more stuff from Turbine. Yeah, that's "leaning the game," all right.


If you mean "no problems" as "need to have a cleric strapped to your back," then sure.

Or the alternative: you can only run a PM is you want a flesy wizard.

Yeah. That's "variety" for you...


And you LIE. You're saying no extra money to run eHard. That means no VIP, no adventuire packs, no gear. And that's clearly incorrect. What it boils down to is that you are drowning in entitled-VIP-syndrome where the money you pay is justified, but you pout about having to spend more money for the xpack so you feel it's not a valid purchase.

If I am VIP, I get extra characters slots (irrelevent for this discussion), and access to most content, and can open stuff on elite first time.

I don't get access to WF - it is an extra cost. Most of the advice here is that in order to be a AM, I MUST go WF.

I don't get access to EDs. Accroding to the advice you're giving, I MUST have that to run epic content.

In fact, me being VIP is pretty much irrelevent to the argument at hand. I've got no issue with people having to spend money to get adventure packs. But even now, F2P players have access to the *same* races as I do, and the *same* classes as I do (or, at the least, I run the same classes as a F2P player has).

In fact, I believe F2P players have access to epic content via the Lords of Dust chain. They just can't run it EH right off the bat - they need an opener. I'm usually more than happy to oblige those requests.

So, I have no idea where you get the idea of me "lying." I think that's yet another dodge to deflect from the fact that your F2P builds are indeed not F2P. Whatever...


Most new players won't be VIP, they'll start free and end up premium. They'll buy the xpack base version once they hit 20 and will be far more effective than your wizard. And when you add up how much they spent compared to you, they will have spent far less and ALL of their alts will be leaps and bounds more powerful than all of yours. And even more to the point, they money they spent won't be spent until they've been playing the game for a while and know that they want to keep playing.

They will? And you know this...how?

Funny, I'm not seeing a whole lot of LFMs up for the expansion pack stuff. It's been out for a while, and I'm still not seeing a whole lot of people wanting to run expansion pack quests. I know some guildies who have, because they solo the content. But PUGs? Sorry, I'm just not seeing them.

And the points I've been trying to make - and distinguish from some of yours - are that I'm dealing with PUGs. IN fact, this whole thread is pretty much PUG-oriented.

The same goes for Druids Deep, the The High Road. In fairness, these are relatively new, so I don't expect to see these with any regularity in the LFM panel any time soon.

As far as epic content goes, the majority of stuff I'm seeing run is either the Lords of Dust chain, or other the standard stuff: Devil Assult, and a LOT of stuff in Sands. Expansion pack? Hardly ever.

So the evidence I'm seeing says you're flat-out wrong. You may be on a different server, so your mileage may vary - I'm willing to concede that.


Your wizzy has 36 int. That's...not good. It's no wonder you don't think necro is all that; I bet your finger doesn't insta-kill eHard drow even 50% of the time.

LOL! That's funny.

Hard to instakill stuff in epic content when it gets Deathward cast on it the minute it spawns. And virtually all stuff in epic content gets a Deatward on it the minute it appears. I don't even bother anymore.

So, uh, pick that scab all you want. It isn't going to get you anywhere.

And you're the one giving "advice" on what you need to run epic content?

Deathdefy
12-06-2012, 05:05 PM
To me, it's obvious you don't need 32 point builds or EDs to contribute well in EN and EH epics.

Even EHs are easier than pre-expansion epics, and there were certainly plenty of 28 pt builds doing fine in epics before the expansion. I don't really think that's disputable, but I've been surprised on these boards before.



Hard to instakill stuff in epic content when it gets Deathward cast on it the minute it spawns. And virtually all stuff in epic content gets a Deathward on it the minute it appears. I don't even bother anymore.


Since I can list on one hand the number of epic quests where divines casting deathward is a potential problem, what content are you running?

I'll be totally honest that 3 threads later I still think you're confusing the deathward icon (for epic ward) that appears above all epic mobs heads when they spawn with actual deathward.

Charononus
12-06-2012, 05:45 PM
To me, it's obvious you don't need 32 point builds or EDs to contribute well in EN and EH epics.

Even EHs are easier than pre-expansion epics, and there were certainly plenty of 28 pt builds doing fine in epics before the expansion. I don't really think that's disputable, but I've been surprised on these boards before.



Since I can list on one hand the number of epic quests where divines casting deathward is a potential problem, what content are you running?

I'll be totally honest that 3 threads later I still think you're confusing the deathward icon (for epic ward) that appears above all epic mobs heads when they spawn with actual deathward.

Yes my druid even hits most his fod's on eh. (As long as he can pass spell pen which is rough compared to a wiz on a first life) I think this is a case of epic ward being mistaken for death ward too.

As far as 28-32pt builds I agree you can play just fine on a 28 pt build, this has a small caveat by the time you hit 20 you probably have earned 32 pt builds.

As far as ed's go. Yes you can run en eh with no ed's but your group mates will likely have them and you WILL be underpowered by comparison. Personally I wouldn't want to be known as the guy that breaks boxes because everyone else will handle the fights before they manage more than a token of what the others do.

Arguing the merit's of ed's is pointless though, they're here, they're not going away, and most nearing all endgame players have them. This is not going to change. If you really don't want to pay for the expansion and the ed's I'd recommend doing a 100 favor server tour if you haven't allready. ED's are in the ddo store and can be paid for with turbine points which with time means you can have them for free. Personally I'd rather buy them than grind the turbine points but it can be done without paying a penny.

EllisDee37
12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
As for saying you don't need 32-point builds to roll up a wizard as they add "nothing" to the class: really?

As if adding more points into CON and CHR, or maybe even STR doesn't "help"? Really?

You know, there is more to running a wizzy than base INT, right?I'm starting to think you may just not understand the game.


All I'm saying is that telling someone that they MUST do a 32-point build - which you've done in the past - is not good advice for a new player. You need to manage what they have in order to be good with the game.The problem is this isn't a rogue thread. Your repeated insistence that I advocate new players get 32pt build is disingenuous at best.


The worst-case numbers bear that out. In specific situations, your lovely Pale Trapper is "gimp" when it comes to enchantment CC. So, you solution to bypass that problem is to buy more stuff from Turbine. Yeah, that's "leaning the game," all right.My "gimp" enchantment dcs are higher than your enchantment dcs, so you must be extra double-plus gimp.


In fact, me being VIP is pretty much irrelevent to the argument at hand.No, it's very relevant. It's a tacit admission that it is reaosnable to expect some money to be spent at some point. The only reason you don't count destinies as a valid purchase -- calling it "extra" for no reason whatsoever -- is because you're drowning in entitled-VIP-syndrome. "Whaaaa! I paaaay for my subscriiiption so I shouldn't HAVE to paaay for the expaaaansion! *sniffle* *sniffle*"


They will? And you know this...how?Because, unlike you, I was a free to play player. You never were. You have zero concept of what a free to player thinks, and have zero authority to speak about it.


LOL! That's funny.

Hard to instakill stuff in epic content when it gets Deathward cast on it the minute it spawns. And virtually all stuff in epic content gets a Deatward on it the minute it appears. I don't even bother anymore.

So, uh, pick that scab all you want. It isn't going to get you anywhere.

And you're the one giving "advice" on what you need to run epic content?I was right, earlier. You actually do not understand the game. Here's a clue-by-four you can smack yourself in the head with: That isn't deathward.

It seems like deathward to you becasue your necro DCs are so low that you can't instakill anything.

psi0nix
12-06-2012, 07:44 PM
Should I go out of my way to heal Fleshie Sorcs and AMs or do I let the Darwinian process take its course?


If they require it sure, scrolls only get you so far, and AMs won't have that high of a UMD until later levels. Scrolls are good for between fights, but if you end up with a room full of say barbazu or orthons then it would be expected that heals would be forthcoming.

It all depends on the players as well, some will play smarter and stay our of the way a little / allow the melee to grab aggro, some will rush in and start hitting everything in sight (AOE etc).

In any party I'll do anything it takes (aside from spend money (ddo store stuff)) to keep the party up / the quest going, but if it's a 'bad' experience I'll just remember it and if it's really bad I'll keep the people in mind next time I am running those quests.