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View Full Version : Get Rid of Purple and Red Name Immunities



danzig138
11-17-2012, 02:29 AM
Because those just turn fights into stupid slugfest, but more importantly, they make no sense. If you want to make bosses immune to trip, design a magical item that protects from trips (though, in fairness, it should only provide a bonus to resist, as per poison and disease "immunity"), and make that property available on PC available loot as well. Same with all the other immunities.

It's lazy design, and you can do better.

fmalfeas
11-17-2012, 03:45 AM
Plus it severely penalizes bards and enchanters.

Let them have high saves, but the blanket immunity really is pretty dumb.

Or put Mind Blank into the PC spell list, so we can be immune like a red name too.

btolson
11-17-2012, 06:45 AM
Agreed, would much rather see an often recurring save with boss bonus ala 4E, or diminishing returns ala several other games. Partial functionality is better and more fun than no functionality.

Syllph
11-17-2012, 07:40 AM
Agreed. If it's a human-type mob - it shouldn't be immune to anything humans are not immune to. If it's a fire elemental mob sure, make it immune to whatever is appropriate.

Too many times we fight something that has no reason to be completely immune to something that we are not.

Lithic
11-17-2012, 07:41 AM
Take away immunities, and it would take about 400 hits with a vorpal weapon (Assuming a 10000 AC, so that only a 20 hits, and only a 20 confirms the crit) to kill any boss, or about 20 casts of any death spell (roll a 1 on a save). 20 casts is 1-2mins if you only have one caster doing it, its about 10 seconds depending on the spell if you have lots of casters. 400 melee hits is also on the order of 10-20 seconds with several twf melees. Does that kind of boss fight sound any more fun than today's slugfests?

MRMechMan
11-17-2012, 07:56 AM
Take away immunities, and it would take about 400 hits with a vorpal weapon (Assuming a 10000 AC, so that only a 20 hits, and only a 20 confirms the crit) to kill any boss, or about 20 casts of any death spell (roll a 1 on a save). 20 casts is 1-2mins if you only have one caster doing it, its about 10 seconds depending on the spell if you have lots of casters. 400 melee hits is also on the order of 10-20 seconds with several twf melees. Does that kind of boss fight sound any more fun than today's slugfests?

Was going to write almost exactly this.

1 in 20 is not that long of odds, particularly in a raid group when multiple people can spam those abilities quickly. No matter the bosses saves, it would die, fast.

It would utterly trivilize those fights.

Merlin-ator
11-17-2012, 08:09 AM
1 in 20 is not that long of odds, particularly in a raid group when multiple people can spam those abilities quickly. No matter the bosses saves, it would die, fast.

It would utterly trivilize those fights.

Not necessarily. I think this is a great suggestion, this could make Mordenkainen's Disjunction actually do something if it's used to remove Deathblock or some hold immunity. Just give the bosses super-high saves and code it and their immunities as item effects. That will require a level 17+ Wizard to dispel the immunities. Wizards get Finger of Death at level 11, so the game is untouched for BB groups (which is most of the PUGs) under level 15. It seems more ridiculous to me that a fire elly in Shroud is completely immune to killing effects, holds, charms, or a bunch of other things from a character 8 levels higher than the quest merely because it says something other than "Fire Elemental" above it's head.

MRMechMan
11-17-2012, 08:29 AM
Not necessarily. I think this is a great suggestion, this could make Mordenkainen's Disjunction actually do something if it's used to remove Deathblock or some hold immunity. Just give the bosses super-high saves and code it and their immunities as item effects. That will require a level 17+ Wizard to dispel the immunities. Wizards get Finger of Death at level 11, so the game is untouched for BB groups (which is most of the PUGs) under level 15. It seems more ridiculous to me that a fire elly in Shroud is completely immune to killing effects, holds, charms, or a bunch of other things from a character 8 levels higher than the quest merely because it says something other than "Fire Elemental" above it's head.

Ok, new scenario. 12 wizards all spam mordenkainens till one lands, then all spam finger and wail till one of those lands. With a 1/20 chance for each (probably higher for mordenkainens considering it's a caster level check, and unless the bosses caster level is 50+ one will get through very fast).

Energy drain in particular is just crazy powerful against enemies that are vulnerable to it. A handful of energy drains and that boss has 1/2 the hp it used to. More than a handful and it's just dead.

Red names, maybe. Purple names, no way. Abbot would be a 2min quest, potentially faster if you got lucky with the Mordenkainens/Undeath to death combo. Ditto with Hound, VOD, ADQ2 (ok, 2min quest anyway) or basically any other raidboss fight. Just a bad idea.

ddobard1
11-17-2012, 08:30 AM
/ not signed

shadereaper33
11-17-2012, 08:35 AM
Take away immunities, and it would take about 400 hits with a vorpal weapon (Assuming a 10000 AC, so that only a 20 hits, and only a 20 confirms the crit) to kill any boss, or about 20 casts of any death spell (roll a 1 on a save). 20 casts is 1-2mins if you only have one caster doing it, its about 10 seconds depending on the spell if you have lots of casters. 400 melee hits is also on the order of 10-20 seconds with several twf melees. Does that kind of boss fight sound any more fun than today's slugfests?

These is a simple solution to both of these problems, and 1 is already implemented in game anyway. Vorpal weapons, and similar effects such as disruption, only insta-kill if the target has <1000 hp when the effect goes off, otherwise it simply does an extra 100 dmg. As far as the casters are concerned, remove the boss immunites, but give them a property such that they do not automatically fail a save on a roll of 1. There are ways for PC's to get that effect, so it isn't beyond the realm of plausibility that bosses would have access to it.

Personally, I am not a fan of blanket immunities outright simply because a specific enemy is designated as a boss. I do not, however, think that simply removing their immunities is the way to fix this "problem". This would take a lot of work to get to a balanced point that is fair and still provides an adequate level for challenge.

EndingDoe
11-17-2012, 08:39 AM
1 in 20 is not that long of odds, particularly in a raid group when multiple people can spam those abilities quickly. No matter the bosses saves, it would die, fast.

It would utterly trivilize those fights.
Of course it dies fast. That's what you get when pitting a single guy against 12. You have to design around that fact or take the same path as WoW did: millions of hitpoints and immunities. So far DDO has leaned towards the latter, but not enough to make the fights interesting.

btolson
11-17-2012, 08:56 AM
Death effects are an aberration. I don't mind bosses either retaining full immunity to death effects, or having them work in some very limited form (melee weapons are already appropriately limited, spells could be set to always do the on-save damage even if the boss rolls a 1).

It is the blanket immunities to virtually everything else that is not dps that I want to see go away. There are many alternatives to limiting the effects of non-damage abilities that are better than blanket immunity.

Robai
11-17-2012, 09:24 AM
Because those just turn fights into stupid slugfest, but more importantly, they make no sense. If you want to make bosses immune to trip, design a magical item that protects from trips (though, in fairness, it should only provide a bonus to resist, as per poison and disease "immunity"), and make that property available on PC available loot as well. Same with all the other immunities.

It's lazy design, and you can do better.

I'm not if it's a bug, but I've seen two purple named bosses being tripped (or it was something else, but they were prone for sure):
- Abbot on Hard (he was prone for a very short duration, I saw that once)
- Arach's Knight on EH/EN VoN5 (he was prone for quite some time, I saw that like 5 times so far)

Maybe it was some ED or something else, but it looked like they were tripped.

Therrias
11-17-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm not if it's a bug, but I've seen two purple named bosses being tripped (or it was something else, but they were prone for sure):
- Abbot on Hard (he was prone for a very short duration, I saw that once)
- Arach's Knight on EH/EN VoN5 (he was prone for quite some time, I saw that like 5 times so far)

Maybe it was some ED or something else, but it looked like they were tripped.

Double Rainbow.

LOOON375
11-17-2012, 09:37 AM
I have knocked down epic red named bosses with my Arty using double rainbow stance. It's pretty cool, but it's a super rarity. And it only lasted maybe 1 second before they got back up.

This is just asking for another "easy" button. And if it was implemented, we would then have 500 more threads complaining how the game is too easy.

Mastikator
11-17-2012, 09:47 AM
The players get to wear deathblock, freedom of movement items, heavy fortification items and all sorts of general immunty stuff, why wouldn't bosses? In fact, why aren't more humanoid in middle and higher levels using immunity items?

I'd agree that blanket immunity to everything but HP damage turns it into a slug fest, most bosses should have vulnerabilities.

Therrias
11-17-2012, 09:47 AM
I've knocked down the abbot with double rainbow twice in one instance. Both times lasted until he teleported, one of which was over a minute.

Robai
11-17-2012, 09:58 AM
Double Rainbow.

Thanks (+1).

I'd like Improved Trip feat to have some small chance to work on Red/Purple mobs too.

Even this could be better than nothing (assuming that your Trip DC is high enough):
- 10% chance for red named
- 5% chance for purple named

I mean you take a feat, but it's useful only against trash mobs. Why?

EDIT:
Btw, it would be awesome if Improved Sunder could increase both the chance and the DC for Improved Trip.

MrCow
11-17-2012, 10:10 AM
I wonder how many folks remember the timespan in Module 7 where nothing had immunity vs. death against the spell Destruction, or when Queen Lailat could be made STR-helpless. It made for some fairly anti-climactic fights.

redspecter23
11-17-2012, 10:19 AM
I think there is now a way to eliminate a few select immunities. Players now have the ability to "not fail on a 1" for their saves. I say give this ability to bosses, pump up their saves a bit and eliminate some of the lesser immunities. Anything that players cannot become immune to just feels a bit cheesy if every little red name in the game has it. A level 3 ogre somehow has a lv 21+ ability to not be tripped? A bit of immersion is lost when that happens. Instadeath immunity is ok for anything over level 6 as players can also have that.

Even with this proposal, there is the potential to "always hit" with some abilities on some bosses due to the fact that the save system still uses a 20 point spread. I'm not saying that it should change to the curved system that AC uses but that could be the reason that we have so many immunities to begin with. It's just too easy to get a spell DC or tactic DC to the point where it would always hit or hit often enough to trivialize a boss encounter. The alternative is to make the boss saves so high that it wouldn't matter anyway.

Jay203
11-17-2012, 10:20 AM
I wonder how many folks remember the timespan in Module 7 where nothing had immunity vs. death against the spell Destruction, or when Queen Lailat could be made STR-helpless. It made for some fairly anti-climactic fights.

hehe, back when stat damage was king? xD

in all seriousness, blanket immunity due to poor design, gazillions of hp due to power creep

soulaeon
11-17-2012, 11:21 AM
Some bosses should have immunities. But others, if not immune, should have high saves or something because they are bosses and they should be difficult.

sirgog
11-26-2012, 09:41 PM
I wonder how many folks remember the timespan in Module 7 where nothing had immunity vs. death against the spell Destruction, or when Queen Lailat could be made STR-helpless. It made for some fairly anti-climactic fights.

I remember this.

The only place it was entertaining was in the Reaver's Fate.

HatsuharuZ
11-26-2012, 10:12 PM
Hmm... how about this:

1) Take away immunities to everything except for stat damage, vorpal and death spells.

2) Make it so that red and purple names get two saves vs. everything, like with slippery mind, but for all save types.

Ginarrbrik
11-26-2012, 10:14 PM
/not signed.

first off, they're technically not IMMUNE. i've seen several purple names tripped with random procs from shiradi. they usually don't stay down very long because of their high balance, but a few seconds is better than nothing.

but anyway, i understand where this idea comes from, and i agree with that for the most part. but getting rid of immunities altogether, NO. that would just be way, way, way too easy.

fmalfeas
11-26-2012, 10:53 PM
If you think about it, fighting a boss is kinda like fighting another adventurer. A serious cut above the trashmobs with NPC classes or racial hit dice. Geared and experienced.

So, strip the bosses of their immunities, except for raidbosses where the immunity makes sense. (Hint, Harry has the ability to cast Wish - he can make himself immune to some things.)

Then, give us access to Mind Blank - it's an 8th level Sorc/Wiz spell.

Give it to the mobs too.

Give bosses gear. This includes immunity gear. If they're CR9+, they should have a Deathblock item. If they're CR15+ and they don't have Heavy Fort, something is wrong. Give them a Resistance item.

If we've got the power, and the spell loaded, Disjunction could give us some precious time to strike at full power by supressing their gear and stripping their buffs.

If they are casters, or have helping casters? Yeah, we can undergo Dispel, Greater Dispel, or even Disjunction. We'll have to learn to cope with that, and not just say 'The clicky is good enough, it'll last to the next shrine' or 'I'll just chug some pots and be buffed up'. No, when that Disjunction hits, all those potbuffs are gone, and the clicky buffs. Maybe some of the caster-cast buffs will survive due to CL...maybe.

And fights will be a lot more interesting, and Disjunction will finally be useful.

Stormraiser
12-05-2012, 02:03 PM
If you think about it, fighting a boss is kinda like fighting another adventurer. A serious cut above the trashmobs with NPC classes or racial hit dice. Geared and experienced.

So, strip the bosses of their immunities, except for raidbosses where the immunity makes sense. (Hint, Harry has the ability to cast Wish - he can make himself immune to some things.)

Then, give us access to Mind Blank - it's an 8th level Sorc/Wiz spell.

Give it to the mobs too.

Give bosses gear. This includes immunity gear. If they're CR9+, they should have a Deathblock item. If they're CR15+ and they don't have Heavy Fort, something is wrong. Give them a Resistance item.

If we've got the power, and the spell loaded, Disjunction could give us some precious time to strike at full power by supressing their gear and stripping their buffs.

If they are casters, or have helping casters? Yeah, we can undergo Dispel, Greater Dispel, or even Disjunction. We'll have to learn to cope with that, and not just say 'The clicky is good enough, it'll last to the next shrine' or 'I'll just chug some pots and be buffed up'. No, when that Disjunction hits, all those potbuffs are gone, and the clicky buffs. Maybe some of the caster-cast buffs will survive due to CL...maybe.

And fights will be a lot more interesting, and Disjunction will finally be useful.

Hehe, give us some gimp 8 con drow enemies to fight too. Or the epic characters with under 250 HP :)

susiedupfer
12-05-2012, 02:14 PM
There needs to be something that makes them red/purple named. End bosses need to be tough to make you feel you accomplished something. Pushing the easy button is boring.

stoerm
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
No. A boss is supposed to tough, not disabled or instakilled.

Also, making the mechanics the same for PCs and NPCs is not an argument. Gameplay and challenge are more important (neither is appealing to pnp rules). NPCs are hugely penalized on their to hit rolls in comparison to PCs and nobody is complaining.

Bogenbroom
12-05-2012, 03:17 PM
I hate blanket immunities as much as anyone, especially as my main is an enchanter, but it is dangerous to do away with them. Some ideas I'd had that might make it viable...

- High rate of recovery to stat damage (it can't kill anymore anyway,) so, say, stat damage restores at a rate of 1 per 3 seconds and they had the DR/1 vs stat damage.
- Recovery from general debuff spells more n line (or even better than) character recovery and not mob recovery.
- Energy drain similar to the way stat damage is now.Only a maximum of X levels, and, again, with quick recovery... say a level every 3 seconds.
- lastly, I thought it might be interesting if bosses didn't *start* with immunities, but could acquire them upon exposure and certain saves. So, say, Boss X gets hit with "blind." Rolls his save and if he rolls a 1, he rolls again, if he gets another 1 he fails. If he rolls a 17+ on the first roll he gets immunity to blind. Just a thought.

Where I am going is that support characters could have a more involved experience in boss fights if their roll came to include maintaining debuffs and such.

Death spells are a different ball of wax, insta-death vs bosses should be a no go. That is the only immunity to me that makes perfect sense.

cforce
12-05-2012, 03:32 PM
Thinking outside the box a bit.

The main problem with allowing a lot of things that bosses are presently immune to is the threat of trivializing encounters with chained debilitating effects.

Another way to potentially open up a lot of the state-based spells and attacks (held, stunned, tripped, etc...) would be to nerf the *effect* when it's applied to boss-types, rather than save/duration/etc. Substitute some state-based debuff that's thematically similar, but doesn't trivialize an encounter, even if it's chained.(I'm intentionally picking on state-based stuff because I think it might be more reasonable to implement globally without having to go touch every spell, ability, etc.) For example:

Held: Attack speed slowed by 10%, movement speed by 20%
Stunned: -4 to-hit, -4 AC
Tripped: movement speed slowed by 20%, -5 reflex save
Blinded: -10% fortification, -4 to-hit

You get the idea. Make the "boss-resisted" effect minimal enough that a boss who is simultaneously Held/Stunned/Tripped/Blinded is still a major threat. It wouldn't take a huge debuff to make all of these things worth doing in an Elite boss fight, where every small advantage might be worthwhile.

(I'm actually pretty happy with the present solution for most instakills, where the "boss substitution" is just a significant package of damage.)

gphysalis
12-05-2012, 03:39 PM
or about 20 casts of any death spell (roll a 1 on a save).

1 in 20?

What is this?

I want to be able to use Power Word Kill and 1 shot any raid boss :eek:

fmalfeas
12-05-2012, 08:53 PM
Eh, make PWK work by the PvP rules against bosses.

Only works if the boss has less than 101 hp left.

And you've still gotta disjunction their deathblock item first.