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Limey
11-16-2012, 10:19 AM
After a couple of weeks of pugging after a recent TR I’ve noticed there seem to be quite a few (presumably new) players who have seriously low hit points for their level.

Rather than simply mock them like some, I made this post to help them find ways of beefing up their poor emancipated pencil necked carcasses. My plan is to paste a link to this thread every time I meet one.

Most deaths are caused by running out of hit points so do these:

Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.
Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
Con: Ship buff
False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.

Also, while not hit points, get an item that adds heavy fortification. You will die a lot less as critical hits will kill you quickly without this.

While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.

Raithe
11-16-2012, 10:41 AM
While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.

I have seen no evidence of this. Once ran with a 950 hp barbarian (before MotU) that died about 3 times in Mired with Kobolds elite. No one else ever even came close to dying.

In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned. Sure, someone with a small hit point container may need healing more often.

Notice I said may. Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.

I know you are proud of your hit point total. It is fairly meaningless. My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.

Seeing someone with a small amount of hit points probably just means they are low man on the grinding totem pole. They will die more often simply because of their inexperience. The proper way to keep them playing is to go out of your way to protect them from aggro, heal them before they fall into danger, and offer them equipment that is more suitable to their level if they don't already have it.

The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.

Cap_Man
11-16-2012, 10:56 AM
Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.

This is True.

And it is also true that for new players the OP's info is very useful.

Seb
11-16-2012, 11:28 AM
Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.


I respectfully disagree. To me a good player is a player who demonstrates the ability to learn from mistakes. A bad player to me is one who does not demonstrate an ability to learn from mistakes. Under this definition I have met many more good players than bad players. I have, however, met a number of players who build characters with few hit points and show no inclination to play them carefully.

Hit points are your base defense against everything. Death spells are the only effect that ignores HP and even that if you make your save it comes back to HP. All of the other defenses are worth consideration but I agree with the OP that HP are the first defensive attribute that new players should concentrate on.

For new players at low levels I would put extra emphasis on False Life and the Toughness feat. At low levels +3 Con is the most you can really hope for and that only grants you +1 or +2 HP per level. So at level 5 you might get a maximum of +10 to your HP from your Con item. On the other hand you can get a +10 hp false life item with no minimum level. The HP from the Toughness feat itself is pretty small at low levels but it gives access to action point enhancements that can be quite significant.

Limey
11-16-2012, 11:33 AM
The purpose of this thread is not to state that hps are the only way to impove survivability but if you are joining groups running elite sands quests with 100hps its a good place to start.

Also: "I know you are proud of your hit point total" I made no such statement

countfitz
11-16-2012, 11:42 AM
In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned.

WOW! No, sorry, but heavy fort all the way at the end? No.

It should go:

0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO, and deserves not only the #1 spot, but the before #1 spot) Killing things before they can even get near attacking you is the best defense.

1. Saves ONLY if you have evasion too>
2. Heavy fort OR Hit points, I prefer the Heavy Fort though (yeah, it's that important, maybe more, being critted on a x3 or x4 on EE will do well over 500 damage, so unless you have enough HPs you need Heavy Fort, its really a one or the other kind of thing)>
3. Deathblock/ward>
4. HEAL AMP (you left that one out)>
5. Miss chance (I'm talking blur/displacement, not AC/dodge, I think you were too but it was unclear)>
6. Neg immunity/Level Drain immunity (which can be cured by a restore in like one click, so the only real issue here is the drain on mana, not death, if we're talking ONLY death then it goes even further back)>
7. Protection from elements>
8. Saves without evasion (seriously, saves without evasion is kind of just for poison, disease, and hold monster, so not all that important, IMO, even my best paladins with crazy high saves didn't save against anything of importance until I splashed their second level of rogue or monk)>
9. DR (like serious WF tank or shieldblocking tank, and even then that's just been so overshadowed it still deserves to be above the next one)>
10. AC/dodge (even after the changes it's not that great, and in fact the few people who used to be able to get 95% AC now have in the mid 70% range so it made it worse for the few who could AC tank)>
11. Standard DR (items/barbarian)>
12. Hit points OR heavy fort, once again Heavy fort being the better of the two.
13. Movement Speed (I didn't get this one being on the list at all, honestly, but if it belongs somewhere, it's behind hit points).

Now, yeah, your point on this thread, "HP isn't that big a deal," is true. But the rest of your list was just awful. I mean, you NEED heavy fort, otherwise you do in fact need major hit points and crazy good self heals. Saying heavy fort goes at the bottom is just silly.

Anyway, the reasoning behind Hit Points being at the bottom is that hit points don't stop you from taking damage or dying from it, they give you a buffer to get healed in time before you die. If you have nothing but hit points, you'll spend the entire game chugging pots or being carried by the cleric who is tired of wasting his blue to keep you alive. More hit points is just a drain on resources if you don't have everything else above it in the list.

countfitz
11-16-2012, 11:45 AM
The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.

This, by the way, is broken in how true it is :)

cru121
11-16-2012, 11:58 AM
It should go:
0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO...
Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

all other things are optional

countfitz
11-16-2012, 12:03 PM
Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

all other things are optional

AH! That 1) explains the run speed issue, and 2) the OP's point!

This is a piking guide :)

Then my entire post, which I actually spent great thought in, was all for not.

countfitz
11-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Overall, by the way, this was a great list OP, and didn't want to come off seeming like I didn't think it was useful.



Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.
Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
Con: Ship buff
False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.

Also, while not hit points, get an item that adds heavy fortification. You will die a lot less as critical hits will kill you quickly without this.

While it may not be possible to get all the above at once, most are easily achievable and will make a massive difference to your survivability.

To this I want to say Con can be put at 12 on drow and elves.

I wholely agree with guild crystals. I always have at least one lootgen item on a build so I can have a guild slot. In fact, I have sacrificed run speed on my current TR build for 20 HPs (at level 1, the run speed is painful, but you pretty much double your HP, when putting them on boots). I find boots are the most expendable place to do this, though my main and my wife's main use convelescent bracers with slots, which were a nice addition to the game, replacing our Levik's.

Everyone should run the rats in the orchard til ransack at level 12, over and over til they get their Minos. Even a noob can kill the rats, it's great XP, and if you have a vet/higher level player you can hit the caravan as well and do it in half the time. They're just rats, and anyone with a proper, cheap bane weapon with any element will destroy them in no time.

I'd add: If you're not a class that can cast rage, RAGE POTS.

To the Green Steel comment, I'd hold off on making the cheapest possible item. Some patience to get a dual shard item, depending on build, might be a better choice.


Most deaths are caused by running out of hit points

I disagree, personally for me most deaths are me being too lazy to cast some basic spells like deathward/resists or getting dungeon alerted or, just a week ago (embarrassing) I died from not being able to JUMP over a mob that surrounded me while I was zerging with Blade Barriers.

Gunga
11-16-2012, 12:20 PM
Sestra told me that you don't need HP if you have AC.

Cap_Man
11-16-2012, 12:42 PM
Yes. But note, this thread is about tips for new players, when in party with vets. In that case, you only need two things:

1. HP (so that you're not kicked from party on sight)
2. run speed (to keep up with the zerg)

all other things are optional

lol, I thought the 'run speed' was for when things go south

Run Away! Run Away!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8

;)

heavenandhell
11-16-2012, 12:52 PM
Low hp is fine if you solo and have immense amount of money. Otherwise its simply stupid a human or wf sorc first life can easily.get to 350 hp with readily available gear or nearly 470 hp with very good gear. Casters are the lowest hp class. Having low hp hurts you and everyone around you. Being dead is really boring. Being a drain on the party is not kind. Finally proving that you can level up a poorly thought out toon is not an innovation. Staying alive and contributing is the implicit promise you make when you join a group.


The instant a very low hp usually a drow joins a pug most experienced players usually are just waiting for you to die and the resulting. xp penalty. Basiscallly low hp tooms are walkimg xp penalties.

MrStinky
11-16-2012, 12:57 PM
Sestra told me that you don't need HP if you have AC.

This is what i call pouring fuel on a fire! +1 to you!

Cardoor
11-16-2012, 12:57 PM
Few More Tips:

- If you see something explosive, melee it for better dungeon alert.

- If you are in the middle of a trap, stand still, so it doesn't notice you.

- If someone casts web, cast fireball before the spiders show up.

- Max out your heal skill points in case the healer goes afk.

- Save all of your potions your first life, so you dont have to buy any in the marketplace when you TR.

- Healers should always follow the guy that breaks from the group and dies a lot, that way you can tell the rest of the group what to watch out for while they are retrieving your stones.

- If the party leader stops next to a lever/switch/NPC and starts typing something, show initiative and assume they want you to experiment with it.

- Never use dismiss charm until someone tells you where to find it in your feats, otherwise they were probably just joking.

- Kill enemy spellcasters last, since they have the lowest hp.

- Write forum advice when you should be working

Soul_Power
11-16-2012, 01:05 PM
0. DPS (Sadly, DPS is king in DDO, and deserves not only the #1 spot, but the before #1 spot) Killing things before they can even get near attacking you is the best defense.


The most important thing in DDO is balance. As soon as you start to rate certain things as being more important than other things, you start to run into problems in DDO. Even run speed has the potential of being #1 on your little list, just depending on the time and place. Balance and resourcefulness is what kills things not DPS because how can you deal out DPS when you're dead.

As far as hitpoints go, generally the builds that seem to have too few hitpoints are lacking in balance and/or resourcefulness. If you have a 28 point build, and you maxed out a single ability at the start (except for con of course), then chances are your character is lacking in HP and is imbalanced. If you didn't take the toughness feat, you are denying yourself of all those toughness enhancements (which can mean up to 80hp in some cases) and you simply are not being resourceful. You want toughness. You want toughness as your first feat every time.

FranOhmsford
11-16-2012, 01:17 PM
I can see the point in making this thread OP and Newbies may indeed find it very useful.

However:

I'm sorry but 14 Con base is Not the Minimum requirement!

For an Elf or a Drow it is fine to start with 12 Con! Don't gimp your character just to get those extra 28hp at cap!

Gear and The Toughness Feat/Enhancements are far far more important than Base Con! Yes it's a d@rn good idea to put at least a few points in Con when creating your character but I see far too many people advocating the 14 Con Base as an absolute Minimum when it is no such thing!

14 for a Human, H-Elf, Halfling, H-Orc = 16 for a Dwarf or WF and 12 for an Elf/Drow.
You can easily leave your Dwarf or WF at 14 Base Con to gain extra points elsewhere.
Pushing Con to 14 on an Elf/Drow CAN gimp your build!

Oh and There are quite a few Prestiges where taking Toughness should in my view be relegated to around Lvl 9 {Unless you're Human and have the spare feat} - Ranger and Artificer builds are especially tight here.
If someone tells you you've got too few hp on your Lvl 7 Ranger/Arti they don't know what they're talking about frankly!

I'm no great shakes at playing this game yet I can level a non-human/non-WF Arti past Lvl 7 {from Lvl 1} doing Elite Bravery all the way with less than 80hp - I take Quicken for Flame Turret, Extend and Augment Summoning as well as Ranged feats before I take Toughness.

HAVING SAID ALL THIS: I am in no way advocating Low HP at High Lvls!
Greater False Life = 30
Toughness {Minos Legens, Thaarak Bracers, Some new random Loot} = 20
Toughness Feat + Enhancements {From lvl 9 at the latest as a Newbie}.
And a Base Con of at least 12 {Elf/Drow - 14 for anyone else}.
Are easy enough to get.

Don't let people talking about Greensteel put you off - That's for 2nd Life + as you're not getting it before Lvl 17 min on your first Life.
You can get Superior False Life too at the higher Lvls.
And a Stalwart Trinket from Crystal Cove also adds HP if I remember correctly.
+ If you're in a Guild and have an Augment Slot handy - Guild Augment Crystals of Health are your friend.

There are plenty of ways to get HP at higher levels - You don't want to be still wearing the Rugged Belt from Korthos at Lvl 10 and you don't want to still be wearing Nightforge Bracers {Imp False Life} at Lvl 20.

FranOhmsford
11-16-2012, 01:38 PM
The most important thing in DDO is balance. As soon as you start to rate certain things as being more important than other things, you start to run into problems in DDO. Even run speed has the potential of being #1 on your little list, just depending on the time and place. Balance and resourcefulness is what kills things not DPS because how can you deal out DPS when you're dead.

As far as hitpoints go, generally the builds that seem to have too few hitpoints are lacking in balance and/or resourcefulness. If you have a 28 point build, and you maxed out a single ability at the start (except for con of course), then chances are your character is lacking in HP and is imbalanced. If you didn't take the toughness feat, you are denying yourself of all those toughness enhancements (which can mean up to 80hp in some cases) and you simply are not being resourceful. You want toughness. You want toughness as your first feat every time.

Your first paragraph is Perfect.
Your second paragraph however is completely wrong.

If you max Con on a Drow Paladin then trust me you've gimped your toon.
If you max Con on a Rogue Mech or Artificer then you've dropped your multiple main stats.
If you max Con on a 28pt {heck even a 32 pt} Caster then you're losing DCs.

Toughness is an amazing and Vital feat - However there are many people who will disagree on needing to take it at lvl 1.
At Lvl 1 Toughness = 4 hp!
At Lvl 9 it only equals = 13hp without Enhancements!
Once you've got the Enhancements it's great - But even then: Not needed at low level.
I don't know a single build where it's impossible to get by Lvl 9 though so I say: You should have Toughness {Feat} by Lvl 9 at the latest.
You can redo your enhancements at this point if you wish OR you can simply take the Toughness Enhancements as they come up.

Remember to look for HP gear as you level!
A 20th level Barbarian with a Base Con of 20, a +6 Con item, 1 Toughness Feat and 4 Enhancements = 463 HP!
A 20th Level Barbarian with 463 HP would be laughed out of most groups in this game {More's the Pity in my view}.
Greater False Life = 30, Toughness {item} = 20 - You can now have a base Con of 18 and have 2 Extra points in STR and 493 HP on your Barb!
Add Ship Buffs and you're Over 500, Add 45hp Greensteel item and you've passed 550, A +2 Con tome will take you to 578?
Some people will still consider that low btw.
P.S. This is Non-Raged as I'm not going to advocate Hitting Rage before Hitting LFMs!
P.P.S. I'm assuming Level up pts have gone into STR!

Raithe
11-16-2012, 01:41 PM
It should go:


Yes, well, for the sake of simplifying a slightly complex model, people tend to divide their analysis into offensive and defensive measures. For example, healing amp is an offensive measure, not a defensive one. Someone has to offensively cast a cure spell on you in order for healing amp to come into play.

I could have listed quicken as probably being the top contributor to not dying across certain classes - provided the character in question has spell points for the situation at hand. That simply becomes too complex for discussion. We need to use generalizations.

I limited my analysis to purely defensive measures (precast buffs, gear effects, attributes, saves, and skills). My list is also a simplification, but holds up pretty well as I continue to analyze it. As for miss chance, that represents the combined probability of being missed with melee/ranged from AC/concealment/incorporeal/dodge/etc. Of course a 50% miss chance is going to be more effective for survival than a heavy fort or hit point emphasis, because:

1) It effectively doubles your hit points from a 0% miss chance
2) It may reduce the chance of crit confirmation (if it involves AC)
3) It halves the number of crits you would be subject to anyway
4) It is extremely likely to limit the damage taken when targetted by multiple mobs (it only takes 3 or 4 mobs to equate to a crit damage from one)

You need to understand that I am speaking from a great deal of experience. It is simple to order heavy fort and 50% miss because it is easy to compare having heavy fort with having displacement. I can tell you I would much rather run without heavy fort than run without displacement. It's why I spend spell points on the the latter.

The point is that there are many other things a new player should focus on first, before worrying about satisfying the ubers to get into their group (many of which ubers are far from actually being uber). DDO has a low retention rate of new players because "vets" (not really) are telling them the wrong things to try first.

Soul_Power
11-16-2012, 01:54 PM
I wasn't trying to give the impression that maxing con was a good idea and will give you a balanced character, quite the opposite actually. My point was that con is the only ability you can max and not have hp issues with a 28 point build unless you are like a Wizard with only int and con (which is why I said "generally" in the first place).

As far as taking toughness at level 1, yeah I know it's not necessary. Low levels are a cakewalk anyway, no feat is really necessary at such low levels. Believe me though, +10 hp at level 1 means a LOT more than +20 hp at level 20. That is my mentality towards taking toughness first. It's still easy enough to stomp low level quests on elite without it.

Hawkwier
11-16-2012, 02:15 PM
...You need to understand that I am speaking from a great deal of experience... first.

Aye...

Until I recall the nonsense you've spouted before, maybe... ;)

As for your classification for offensive Vs defensive - fine if it works in your head, but not for me.

Take a pre-cast haste as an example - For you, precast=defensive, compared to "offensive" healing amp?

For me, something that helps me hit stuff faster, increasing DPS or other harm to my opponent, is what I tend to call offensive (e.g. a pre-cast haste), Vs, say, something defensive that instead helps keep me alive by someone having to hit me a bit more to kill me to get my red-bar down (say from getting more HP from a heal by virtue of having some HA so my red-bar is that bit higher).


In summary:
hurts thier red-bar = offensive
helps my red-bar = defensive
and a few things can do both (Yay!)

As the meerkats on TV ads here say: SIMPLES! :)

Maybe just my lack of experience, but I've yet to kill a mob using HA alone - even a kobold - take it you've had more luck?

I think your flawed definition there may in-turn have resulted in your flawed initial list, and the resulting neccesity to come back on and explain your logic at length now, and maybe even to feel you ought to add in that "experience" quote too? (LOL!)

Trouble is now you've explained it, it still doesnt make a whole load of sense.

But then - waddiaino - I'm jus a dum barb wot likes hitin fings til dey stop movin no moar, den mebbe's agen, jus coz (not wi ma heelin amp do)... :)

FranOhmsford
11-16-2012, 02:17 PM
I wasn't trying to give the impression that maxing con was a good idea and will give you a balanced character, quite the opposite actually. My point was that con is the only ability you can max and not have hp issues with a 28 point build unless you are like a Wizard with only int and con (which is why I said "generally" in the first place).

As far as taking toughness at level 1, yeah I know it's not necessary. Low levels are a cakewalk anyway, no feat is really necessary at such low levels. Believe me though, +10 hp at level 1 means a LOT more than +20 hp at level 20. That is my mentality towards taking toughness first. It's still easy enough to stomp low level quests on elite without it.

And my point is that Maxing Con gives you issues elsewhere EVEN on a Barb!

You get 4HP from Toughness at lvl 1!
The 10 is from Racial Toughness {I believe Class Tougnesses come in at Lvl 2}.
So a Max of 14 extra HP {Which is great I agree but completely unneeded}.
PLUS: I agree with you about 20 {23} HP at Lvl 20 being nothing BUT apart from the fact that you're actually looking at 63 {with Enhancements} I was advocating taking Toughness at Lvl 9!
At Lvl 9 Toughness + 2 Enhancements {1ap each} = 32 Extra HP - Add the other two possible Toughness Enhancements and you've got 52!

SO: That Lvl 8 Character you've just had a go at for having too few HP suddenly goes past your total upon levelling up!
If he then goes over to Relic of a Sovereign Past {f2p - don't even have to finish the quest so can farm on Casual}. he can grab the Nightforge Bracers {Imp False Life and 3 Charges of Heroism} Plus the Nightforge Gorget {Necklace with Heavy Fort} too.

Never have a go at anyone's HP if they're below Lvl 9 - For each level after that remember that they may just not have found the right gear yet so give them a 50pt buffer below your minimum standard!

In fact: Going back to when Shroud Groups regularly insisted on 300HP for Normal {More like 400 now} I saw plenty of 250HP toons survive just fine!
Every update min HP requirements in LFMs seem to go up these days!

heavenandhell
11-16-2012, 02:53 PM
If you have more hp you can play like how strong players play --- aggresively. 500 to 600 hp casters have more options. The optimal use of wail is in the center of a lot mobs and at the very start ofa fight. To do this casters have to have high hp and charge and jump to the center of a fight. Same with cone of cold gather and spin technique.

For melees the most effective attack is the cleeave and greatcleave . Again its more effective when in the middle of mobs. Also why do rangers kite so often and annoy people around them--low hp.

Ive seenlow hp casters and they have to stay in the back and are much less effective. HP affects how you play.


HP also lets healers be more efficient. Ifyou can be oneshotted you are useless. If it takes 2 hits then either you or the healer have to. to heal you constantly. If ut takes 4 or more hits to take you down then its easier for the healwr to use group heals.

Low hp is poor character design, selfish, not fun, wasteful of resources and just gives a giant beacon overyour head that you will not pull your weight.

Enoach
11-16-2012, 03:10 PM
While some of the items listed are good, the post lacks "Why" and "When" they should expect access to such items

Con (starting stat): The old cliché “Con is not a dump stat” is very apt. Try not to start with less than 14 no matter what class you are.

Constitution is used to determine your HP bonus above what you would get for your class. d4 Classes will generally have fewer HP than their d8 Counter parts, however, HP are a buffer from Death. Constitution helps make this buffer larger. On Caster type, including Monks where Concentration benefits the ability to cast while under fire, or maintain Ki longer it is also important.

Example: Comparing Apples to Apples for the same Class: an 8 Con Character will be -1 HP Per Level Behind a 10 Con Character, and -3 HP Per Level Behind a 14 Con Character. At Level 1 this will not be a big deal, however at level 20 that gap spreads to 60 HP.


Con Items: Get a ring or belt etc with as high a Con as possible
Constitution Items are good, and it is a good idea to have the most level appropriate version, but at low levels it is not as much of a gain as it is at higher levels. At lower levels False Life Items generally provide more HP than a +1/+2 Constitution Item, having both is best, but if only one can be used use the one that will provide you with the most HP.


Con Tomes: Get one, even a plus 2 is good and not too expensive on the AH
Tomes are a good thing to shoot for, however they are not mandatory to enjoy the game. It is not until level 7 that you can enjoy the benefit of a +2 Tome, or 11 for the +3 or 14 for the +4. Tomes are extra power and great ways to shore up a weakness. But in your questing you will run across these items so I would not put stress on these. If you do have plat burning a hole in your coin purse these are good investments.

Con: Ship buff
Again it is a stacking bonus above all other bonuses, that is only limited by the Guild Level and availability. At lower levels the Constitution buff is marginally beneficial. But at Level 20 equals 20 HP.

False Life: Always wear an item with the biggest False Life on it you can
Not only is this a good idea, at lower levels even Lesser False life is more HP than what Constitution bonuses can bring. I would also add, that it is a good idea to also use the Temporary Spells when applicable (Wand/Potions) of False Life and Aid - While these are only Temporary HP, they increase your HP Buffer just prior to combat. It means up to 20 HP you can lose before you have to worry about losing real HP. 20 HP at the lower levels is a good help to survival.

Toughness Feat: Fit it in your build, somehow.
While generally this is a good feat as it means 22 HP minimum at Level 20. Its real value is with the Enhancements - All races have a minimum of 2, some have 3 and some 4, not all classes offer class enhancements which can be from 2 to 4 more as well for the price of action points. That's 20 to 80 more HP above what the toughness feat offers on its own. However, I will point this out as an expert tip only Not all builds benefit equally and play style can prove that this feat is not as useful as others. Bottom line is that depending on race and class as well as play style is 42 to as much as 102 HP at Level 20 worth the investment for HP buffer - For general melee classes it is, for specialty classes builds it needs to be weighed - when in doubt lean towards more HP as you can always adjust as necessary.


Toughness Action points: A no brainer once you have the feat
See above...

Toughness Item: Get the Minos Helm from The Orchard as soon as you can handle it, also has heavy fort on it.
This is a stacking 20 HP above false life items good item to have as it stacks with all other sources of HP

Guild Crystals: Look out for/buy an item with a guild slot and put a health gem in it. (House K for the crystals and by the bank in the Market Place to put it in)
When a member of a Guild watch for items that have guild augment slots - these slots can add a mired of 6 hour enhancements. Each size has a different Minimum level requirement. These Guild Buffs again stack with all other buffs.


Spells: If you are a class that can cast rage do it as much as possible
Spells like rage increase your Constitution, this is good for a boost, more beneficial at higher levels. However rage also increases your strength and will save. This is just as useful at lower levels as it is at higher levels as its benefit is the same.

Green Steel: Get flagged and do the shroud as soon as possible and make a cheap HP item.
Once you have flagged for the Shroud Raid and possibly started to gain ingredients in other quests. A greensteel item can be made that has up to 45 Additional HP. However, it may take some time to farm out the ingredients for all three tiers. Go for the 1st 2 tiers and add 3rd when you can. Alternate items do exist that contain these same enhancements, most of these are in the Minimum level 18+ range. Greensteel is also a good item for TR purposes as its minimum level 11 for a wearable item, and 12 for weapons.

Stormraiser
11-16-2012, 03:34 PM
My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.


Then you might have been kind of person the OP was talking about. If your sorc had 260 hp at cap, then I don't know what to suggest. If you claim to die very infrequently, then I can only reason you were either a very inefficient character or didn't play on the hardest difficulties. Even current elites starting at level 14 or so have spots where you could be disabled and hit for 200 damage in the span of a few seconds. Not to mention disintegrates and the like.

Yes, you could have survived old epics with 100 hp, if you sat in the back, never went through a trap that wasn't disarmed, had superior jumping and avoiding skills, no lag, never played with any bad players, stayed out of melee, never had the group run by mobs and never seemed to get hit with random aggro or spell damage.

More hit points, gives you more flexibility. Easiest epic Chronos I've been in? They were tanked by a sorc. Crazy fast quest completions? A caster is always running in front. Don't want to wait 10 minutes or buy a rogue hireling for the upcoming traps? Run through them.

heavenandhell
11-16-2012, 03:44 PM
260 hp is pitiful hp at level 20. Disregard any advice that comes from any person who. thinks otherwise. My healers have over 550 hp at 20. Damage happens and being dead is notfun.

stefferweffer
11-16-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm totally new still, but wanted to echo what has been said about not getting hit at all being FAR better than getting hit. My human 12/2 wiz/rog Palemaster started with 18 Con and 18 Int (32 point build). I did take toughness also, and wear a +6 health item right now too, and Palemaster adds a few more hp also. So its not like I'm ignoring HP.

But my AC in my robes is pathetic. Under normal circumstances a rat could chew me up quickly. Despite this, in most of my groups with friends' druids and true melee characters, I'm sometimes the last one standing despite charging right into the fray. This is because of Wraith Form Incorporeal + Displacement + Evasion/Insightful Reflexes + 100% fortification (in form) + Negative Energy Blast and Death Auras. My friends bring Cleric hirelings along and still sometimes die faster than their cleric can keep them alive. I'm not trying to brag. I still make mistakes (like forgetting to cast Displacement/Greater Heroism, etc) a lot, but I'm truly amazed how survivable I am as a "Wizard".

Just getting missed a lot, and then having high Evasion saves, and 100 fortification to boot, + access to all the energy resistance that I'd like, seems MUCH more valuable than being a sack of HP (which I do not deny is also important. Thank you OP.)

goodspeed
11-16-2012, 04:54 PM
I have seen no evidence of this. Once ran with a 950 hp barbarian (before MotU) that died about 3 times in Mired with Kobolds elite. No one else ever even came close to dying.

In DDO, saves > evasion > movement speed > deathward/neg immunity > immunity to level drain > energy resistance/prot > deathblock > 75% miss chance > 50% miss chance > hit points ~= heavy fortification > DR, at least as far as death is concerned. Sure, someone with a small hit point container may need healing more often.

Notice I said may. Small hit point containers provoke more careful gameplay in good and bad players alike.

I know you are proud of your hit point total. It is fairly meaningless. My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion. I do not die less than before the expansion. Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.

Seeing someone with a small amount of hit points probably just means they are low man on the grinding totem pole. They will die more often simply because of their inexperience. The proper way to keep them playing is to go out of your way to protect them from aggro, heal them before they fall into danger, and offer them equipment that is more suitable to their level if they don't already have it.

The 7 hit points from toughness + 14 con (vs. 8 con and no toughness) at level 1 to 103 hit points at level 25 is not the difference-maker you want it to be. Letting someone on your ship for 30 resists at low level will have a nearly infinitely larger impact on their survivability.

Well theirs a reason for that. You ran with a barb lol. However I can say this. The pally, the monk, the goofey barb, the fighter, any melee build will have at least 800hp. AT LEAST. So I say this because it;s true. The healers going to be going off the tank, or best melee who will have probably 1k hp. (Because 800 to 1100 hp is the norm with ED's now.) If you have a huge gap between you, you will die, and then be deemed a waste of sp to raise.

Now this is in a raid, any raid. If you don't raid don't want any of the loot from them, are a go getter and prefer to run your own groups then hey ya, sure the hell with hp.

But don't be shocked, bewildered, or blindsided when you apply for some raid, or epic elite quest, maybe even epic hard with like 370 to 450hp and you find a ding just as fast following. Even with 14 base con on a low hp per level class, you can still get 600 to 700 hp easy without the use of an ED that gives out tons of HP, or more then 1 toughness. And I know because every alt of mine has the commonest of loot. Hell the best of loot now is the most common of loot lol.

Persiflage
11-19-2012, 04:42 AM
I've seen Toughness described as vital several times in this and many other threads, but I ditched the feat entirely on my Cleric when I LR'd him last time and you know what? It's fine. I'll break 600hp without it at L25 and that honestly is good enough on toon who never melees, with self-healing that strong. As Enoach points out, some builds and/or play-styles will reveal Toughness to not be as useful as, say, Epic Spell Pen. :D

I also ditched it on my WF Arti when levelling until very late in the game and I'm thinking of taking it back out of the mix again on the grounds that there are probably much better things I could be doing with a feat on a ranged/caster toon than adding another 48hp (counting the first two enhancements). Again, I can get him well over 600hp without it.

Note that I'm not in any way arguing with the OP's points here and there are plenty of builds where I absolutely wouldn't want to level them without Toughness... but I don't think it's necessarily a must-have. Would I do without it on my Monks? Hell, no. Would I do without it on my Wizard? Hmmm... just maybe, although of course the feat gives a higher percentage of total hp on a toon getting half as many hp per level as a Cleric. In an odd way, I kinda like the extra edginess of slightly lower hit-points; it encourages me to use cannier and more thoughtful tactics.

On any toon I have, I am - provided the Lag Monster doesn't eat me - extremely unlikely to be the one who loses you the 10% no-deaths bonus XP, certain special circumstances aside. By and large, I just Don't Get Killed, which may well stem from the fact that I've never quite shifted my old-school D&D mentality where getting killed was a big deal. I really, really hate to die in a quest. I bring this up purely because if I'd found that ditching Toughness was making any significant difference to the rate at which I tend to meet my demise, I wouldn't do it... but on the toons I've experimented with so far, it just isn't hurting me noticeably.

Quite the contrary, in fact; on spell-casting toons of any stripe, any sensible feat you replace Toughness with is likely to result in you killing things faster, which is - as others have pointed out - the Number One way of reducing your incoming damage in DDO ;)

I'm not knocking taking Toughness as a feat, nor am I even suggesting that anyone else ditch it, I'm just presenting an alternative viewpoint :)

EDIT: On the grounds that I'm a terrible pedant, that nobody else has pointed it out, and that I truly believe that people ought to be corrected when they inadvertently choose completely the wrong word so they don't make the same mistake twice...


Rather than simply mock them like some, I made this post to help them find ways of beefing up their poor emancipated pencil necked carcasses. My plan is to paste a link to this thread every time I meet one.

"Emancipated" does not mean what I think you think it means [1]... I suspect that the word you intended was "emaciated" :D




___

[1] Unless, of course, you're referring to a group of toons who have recently achieved some form of social or political equality, in which case this whole thread is waaaay deeper than I'd realised ;)

MRMechMan
11-19-2012, 05:03 AM
Lol, raithe, you crack me up man. Hit points DO matter. Spike damage in the form of 1s vs spells and traps, and melee EE mobs mean a second of lag or bad luck can mean several 100 points of incoming damage, even with great defences.

Saves are nice. But everyone rolls a 1.
CC is nice. But some mobs cannot be CCed.
AC is nice. But it does little in the hardest content.
Never having agro is nice. But that is a dreamworld.
Displacement is nice. But some mobs have true seeing.
Absorb gear is nice. But hard to slot all the time.
PRR is nice. But without the hp to back it up, it is sort of pointless.
Ditto for Dodge/incorporality.
Self healing is nice. But if you are knocked down or stunned that high hp buffer gives you time to make sure you are above 0hp by the time that eternal 6s is up and your heal/recon goes off.
High dps is nice. But high dps=lots of agro, and you can't avoid all damage.

HP isn't everything, but if you aren't at a decent number, you WILL die more, particularly if you cannot self heal.

At endgame for elite players, if you are FAR below the other melee in terms of hp (south of ~600), you will cost the healers additional sp to keep you up.

At endgame for elite players, if you are a healer with low hp (below 500) you will die far more than if you had 600+.

At endgame for elite players, casters have a bit more leeway but can make 500+ hp without sacrificing anything from their primary or secondary roles...so why not do it?

If I was doing a tough EE or raid and a >600 hp melee, >500 hp divine or >450hp arcane hit the lfm, I would be mildly worried. Again, elite players who generally want to have good characters. For casual play it doesn't really matter. If you care about your character, it isn't hard to get to those benchmarks. I am not calling for barb past lives here. Just a mild investment.

Sacrificing everything for hp is stupid. Ignoring it is equally stupid.

MRMechMan
11-19-2012, 05:08 AM
My sorceror's hit points jumped from ~260 to ~424 since the MotU expansion.



Grats.



I do not die less than before the expansion.


Sorry to hear that.


Due to various game changes, bugs, and high level gameplay in general, I seem to actually die a bit more than I used to.


Yea, that couldn't be because you are running different content, could it? If you had 260 still, would you die an equal amount of times to when you have 424? Same content, everything constant. Think carefully, now...

Building for decent hp (neither 260 nor 424 are really...decent) is not exclusive of anything else a caster, divine or melee can do. It isn't building for party role or hp...you can quite easily do both.

grayham
11-19-2012, 05:40 AM
I made this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=343838) to new help players get more HP. It may compliment some of what's on offer here.