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sk3l3t0r
11-12-2012, 08:28 AM
I wanted to get a perspective on the impact of MOTU on the game since I have never really experienced the end game and raiding, grouping etc ... I have a solo playstyle although I am in a guild and looking to start raiding eventually, for now I am mostly solo because of limited play time.

I have never TRed, so the thought of getting a 34 pt build vs 28 seems really nice. but the xp grind on the second life is sort of a down side, but the guild stuff would help ease the pain.

EDs however seem to outpace a TR for most of the end game even for a first lifer, but I believe I should at least do 1 TR to experience it and get a better feel for the game and then do EDs on my second life toon.

Any thoughts from the end game crowd?

Lonnbeimnech
11-12-2012, 08:29 AM
Yeah. The good news is they stack, so...

mobrien316
11-12-2012, 08:42 AM
If you have two characters with the same epic destinies and the same gear, the one with past lives will always be more powerful than the one without.

However, epic destinies done well will enable you to play endgame content even without past lives.


As always, the bottom line is: If you enjoy leveling characters, go ahead and TR. The passive past life feats are not "wasted" once you get to epic destinies.

If you don't like level characters, don't TR. You can play with epic destinies and twists until you get to a point where you are comfortable with most endgame content.

sk3l3t0r
11-12-2012, 08:50 AM
If you have two characters with the same epic destinies and the same gear, the one with past lives will always be more powerful than the one without.

However, epic destinies done well will enable you to play endgame content even without past lives.


As always, the bottom line is: If you enjoy leveling characters, go ahead and TR. The passive past life feats are not "wasted" once you get to epic destinies.

If you don't like level characters, don't TR. You can play with epic destinies and twists until you get to a point where you are comfortable with most endgame content.

Thank you, seems straight forward enough, and makes sense when you stack rank the toons for passive past life stuff.

I still think I will do at least one TR to experience that part of the game as leveling a toon is not a big deal since there are tons of quests I havent played yet and much of the game is a first time experience still.

BuyTiles
11-12-2012, 08:54 AM
snip the xp grind on the second life is sort of a down side, but the guild stuff would help ease the pain.


Compared to the xp grind of twists of fate, a heroic second life is nothing xp wise.

My advice (after 20 lives, most pre epic levels), is level to 25, get as many fate points unlocked as you can stomach and play with your build. See what you could do with the extra build points (epic toughness for example) that at the moment you're too stretched on points to acheive.

Once you're happy that the investment is worth it, then TR. It doesn't take too long to do, and it's also fun!

sk3l3t0r
11-12-2012, 08:57 AM
Compared to the xp grind of twists of fate, a heroic second life is nothing xp wise.

My advice (after 20 lives, most pre epic levels), is level to 25, get as many fate points unlocked as you can stomach and play with your build. See what you could do with the extra build points (epic toughness for example) that at the moment you're too stretched on points to acheive.

Once you're happy that the investment is worth it, then TR. It doesn't take too long to do, and it's also fun!

That's an interesting perspective, and something I considered with a tweak on my toon to fix some of the gimpness (in other threads on fixing my rogue / sorc build) and just suck it up with a 28 pt build to get the full end ot end game experience to 25 on a first life then TR....the xp grind is less and there are tons of ways to fix a gimp build now with end game to 25 and EDs.

Therigar
11-12-2012, 09:11 AM
There will be several different perspectives. One will involve unlocking all epic destinies in order to have the greatest number of fate points. That will enable the most advantageous twists of fate.

Mine is somewhat less ambitious. Each epic destiny is powerful in its own right. And maxing out a single epic destiny is not really that difficult.

Before U14 the emphasis was on multiple TR characters. Since U14 I don't think that is the case. The epic destinies are extremely powerful and the benefits of multiple TRs just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

However, I would certainly TR a 28 point character if I had the opportunity. The second life climb is not really that much more difficult and there are still a lot of TR groups running on every server.

Would I do that instead of building an epic destiny? I would probably build the one epic destiny that fit my TR class in order to have it waiting. That also lets me get tokens to spend on the TR to start with (although I always just buy from the store).

But, if I was going to TR to something that would get nothing out of the ED then I probably would just go ahead and TR. If I didn't then I'd take an ED that was on the border so that I could expand into new realms on the next life.

So, if going for same or similar life on TR then I'd do the ED. If going for different life on TR I'd probably just TR (or work epic until I had tokens to TR).

Psyker
11-12-2012, 09:16 AM
TR'ing can be a lot of fun, or it can be a real headache that makes you want to delete a character you once loved. Before you TR do some raids and get some gear for your next life. A greensteel weapon and item is a must for non casters, 1 or 2 greensteel items is a must for casters.

sk3l3t0r
11-12-2012, 09:20 AM
There will be several different perspectives. One will involve unlocking all epic destinies in order to have the greatest number of fate points. That will enable the most advantageous twists of fate.

Mine is somewhat less ambitious. Each epic destiny is powerful in its own right. And maxing out a single epic destiny is not really that difficult.

Before U14 the emphasis was on multiple TR characters. Since U14 I don't think that is the case. The epic destinies are extremely powerful and the benefits of multiple TRs just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

However, I would certainly TR a 28 point character if I had the opportunity. The second life climb is not really that much more difficult and there are still a lot of TR groups running on every server.

Would I do that instead of building an epic destiny? I would probably build the one epic destiny that fit my TR class in order to have it waiting. That also lets me get tokens to spend on the TR to start with (although I always just buy from the store).

But, if I was going to TR to something that would get nothing out of the ED then I probably would just go ahead and TR. If I didn't then I'd take an ED that was on the border so that I could expand into new realms on the next life.

So, if going for same or similar life on TR then I'd do the ED. If going for different life on TR I'd probably just TR (or work epic until I had tokens to TR).

And that's the question i haven't answered yet, not sure what the next life would be after a human sorc - earth savant, I have never TRed so the experience in itself is fun, mysterious and exciting,

I'm trying to plan out a first life toon for the first time and so many options so I am trying to get as informed as possible to try and see if mapping out an ED first life on 28 pt build then TRing is more practical than TR at 20 and then do the ED. the missing piece of that puzzle is on a first life toon what do I TR next into.

Ivan_Milic
11-12-2012, 09:27 AM
What packs you have,are you a vip?
First tr is fast,you wont even notice the grind.

sk3l3t0r
11-12-2012, 09:27 AM
What packs you have,are you a vip?
First tr is fast,you wont even notice the grind.

some toon background:

ate a +1 CHA tome I picked up on the AH for 7,500 plat on the weekend, got my level 11 sorc.

stats and gear are here : http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/bagtit/

I am in a medium sized guild and have medium power and health crystals slotted in boots and robe that are crafted with shards i picked up on the AH.

I am Premium with Vale, GH, MOTU pre order bundle, Sands, Reavers, packs so most of the higher level packs. I will pack up some mid level packs whenever they go on sale.

Looking to LR +1 to re tweak my rogue 1 / sorc 11

arminius
11-12-2012, 09:35 AM
I would just list two caveats:

1. The end game now is not the end game of the future. Present performance is no guarantee of future gain. The pendulum could easily swing back to requiring TRs for efficient game play at any time. It might not even require new content to do it, it could just be an update that makes epic hard closer to epic elite than epic normal.

2. TRing was never, imo, mandatory for melees at any point. But the benefit to casters is undeniable. I wouldn't run a caster without at least 1 past wizard life, because the gain to spell pen + the blanket stacking DC's of the active wizard PL feat is just too great a benefit for the cost, even in the era of ED's. And you don't get an easier TR life grind than a WF archmage.

AlteredState
11-12-2012, 09:46 AM
I think the 2nd life is worth the extra build points. Getting with a good group of people that are tring also is a plus but it can be done slower if you have to. Depending on the past life it can be useful to get extra combat dcs or heal amp.

Ivan_Milic
11-12-2012, 10:23 AM
Make gs items before you tr and try to get some +3 tomes.

Therigar
11-12-2012, 10:00 PM
And that's the question i haven't answered yet, not sure what the next life would be after a human sorc - earth savant, I have never TRed so the experience in itself is fun, mysterious and exciting,

I'm trying to plan out a first life toon for the first time and so many options so I am trying to get as informed as possible to try and see if mapping out an ED first life on 28 pt build then TRing is more practical than TR at 20 and then do the ED. the missing piece of that puzzle is on a first life toon what do I TR next into.

I am going to assume that you have limited character slots. Even if you don't, I think it is best to act as if you do.

Here is what I found out about myself. I really like playing melee characters and I really hate playing just about anything else. I'm sitting on a dozen or more characters, many of them second life characters, and they are doing nothing because the life I intend for them doesn't fit very well with what I like to do.

So, what is it you really like to do. This is where your stable of character slots comes in. Assuming you have a primary character and the one we are talking about will become your second main. Go ahead and use the remaining character slot(s) to make a character of a specific class. Play it up to L6 or L7. That doesn't take a whole lot of time. Maybe a week or less for a casual player. See what you like and what you don't.

Meanwhile keep working on the secondary character pushing them towards L20.

You'll soon see what character you really like best and what type of play you enjoy the most.

At the moment I have two epic characters. One is a monk the other a rogue. If you ask my guild mates they will tell you that I am online with the monk more often than any other character. I just like that character so much.

And here's the thing. It is a first life 32 point build and there are tons of things about the monk class that I don't know or don't use. And still it is my favorite character to play.

The rogue will never go away because I like playing him second best. He is also a first life 32 point character.

You know the character I'm not liking at all? The third life fighter and the second life main. It is my MAIN character and I don't even want to play him. And it is because I really like just brainless smash things till they die -- and monks are incredibly good at that while being insanely forgiving even if you don't want to learn what they can do.

You will find those things out about yourself. Maybe you are the person who really rocks the arcane classes. You'll know.

And then TR into that -- whatever that happens to be.

You'll know it well before you hit L20. So then you can decide if it is worth building an epic destiny or not.

EllisDee37
11-13-2012, 02:03 AM
TRing 28pt builds into 34pt is fun and easy; I say go for it.

Xp requirements are like difficulty:

Normal / First life = easy, not worth thinking about
Hard / Second life = minor increase in challenge from normal / first life; largely a non-issue
Elite / Third+ life = significant jump in difficulty / grind compared to hard / second life.

Jeromio
11-13-2012, 04:42 AM
It's always nice with a 36 pt build, but I think it depends a bit on your final class, if it's worth grinding out TR lifes or not.

If you intend to make a DC based spell slinger (divine or arcane) and/or will use spells subject to spellpen, even with the EDs, it's very helpful grinding out arcane/divine past lifes... at least if you intend to try out epic elite quests.
I would do at least 1 wizard life, getting a 34 pt build, which is at least helpful for epic hard; +2 spell pen passive and +1 DC to all spells for the active feat.

IMHO, the other classes' passive and active feats are not worth so much any longer. Paladin's added healing amp might be worth it if you want to max your healing amp, but a few + to-hit, damage and HP is really very little compared to what the EDs can give.

Kinerd
11-13-2012, 03:52 PM
I will never build another past life into a character except maybe 1 wizard. The increased power of a 34+ point build is hugely overrated.

If you are absolutely set on doing a TR, I advise you to go wizard into a DC caster or monk into monk, paladin, or rogue.

phroggiepuddles
11-16-2012, 08:02 PM
I've still got my first main running his first life (28 points build), lvl 23 Paladin and I've been able to solo all the Eveningstar quests (Epic Normal) without much difficulty. I've now done 1 run of Caught in the Web (the Lolth raid) on Epic Normal in a full group and didn't struggle much. So the epic levels aren't significantly harder, you can solo most of it (all but the raid I think) especially with a hire... ultimately, just aim to have fun, once you've done it all and getting bored or uninspired to farm for that dagger of plus awesomeness then TR :)

Epic Destinies are extremely powerful, when I was level 21 with 4 levels of an ED I was more powerful than I was at level 23 with 1 level in my next ED. The levels don't seem to really make much difference (depending on your class of course, if you rely on DCs they would be vital) but it's much less of an impact than pre-20 going up a level.

I will TR this guy, been toying with a couple of ideas, the TR bonus for a 2nd life isn't that great for a Paladin. For now I'm really enjoying the epic content and access to more named loot than I had on Heroic levels so I'm just trying to figure out how to equip my next guy. I have a lot of farming to do still in order to get the dungeon tokens to TR though... I was under the impression it would be quicker than it has been - but that's cool because its all fun :)

My 2nd toon is a Monk who I'm loving, I have lots of ideas to TR into all this different builds but I also want to cash in on increasing the unarmed attack dice - so maybe he'll just monk until he gets old and grey :)