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Faxe
11-09-2012, 09:02 PM
This is just an effort to suggest some specific changes and to apply feedback to improve the renown system.
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Some requirements are here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=400039

Suggested Changes to the Renown System:

C1. Remove the Guild Account Size Bonus when a character loots renown. Just add the value to the character's total renown. This way a heroic deed gives 50 to everyone. A legendary gives 1000 to every character - no more no less.

C2. Remove the Recent Departures and Scale the Active Accounts. Scale the active account to the number of days since any character from the guild that the account had log in. Let's take 30 days as the active cutoff. An account that had not logged on for 15 days would count as 0.5 account.

Scaled Active Account = (active_cutoff - days_since_last_on) / active_cutoff or (30-15)/30 = 0.5

Example with 190 accounts:


Account# Days_Since_Last_On Scaled_Active_Account
1 0 1
2 6 0.8
3 12 0.6
4 15 0.5
5 15 0.5
6 24 0.2
7 30 0
8 40 0
9 120 0
...accounts 10 to 189 had not logged on for more than 30 days all scaled to 0...
190 820 0
-------
Total Scaled Active Account = 3.6


The Total Scaled Active Account (TSAA) for the above 190 accounts would be 3.6 accounts.

C3. Guild Account Size Bonus (GASB). To be fair, scale the guild bonus to be based on 1000 accounts or some number that closely match the current renown levels (seed for this idea here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3940404&postcount=67).

This system will use this generalized scaling formula:
Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = small_size_bogus_factor * (large_size_bogus_factor * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

The small_size_bogus_factor will help small guilds. The large_size_bogus_factor will help guilds with large TSAA.

Since we try to be fair, let's set both bogus factors to 2.718 for now.
So Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

Our 190 accounts guild with 3.6 TSAA has a GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 3.6 + 1000) / (3.6 * 1000) or 0.762387524

C4. Adjusted Character Renown (ACR). Based on how long it is since the account log on, apply a percentage of the character's renown to the guild. For simplicity, let's take 100 days as the base. A character with 100,000 total renown would add 100,000 renown to the guild when online. If that character goes inactive for 10 days, then only 90% of the renown would apply. After 100 days, the guild gets no more renown from that character. If the character logs on again after two years, the 100,000 would be added back to the guild again. There is no decay once the character earned it.

Example with 700 characters with each having collected 100,000 renown:


character# Days_since_online Adjust% Adjusted_Character_Renown
1 0 1.00 100,000
2 6 0.94 94,000
3 12 0.88 88,000
4 15 0.85 85,000
5 15 0.85 85,000
6 24 0.76 76,000
7 30 0.7 70,000
8 40 0.6 60,000
9 120 0 0
...characters 10 to 699 had not logged on for 100 days adjust to 0...
700 820 0 0
------------
Total Adjusted Character Renown = 658,000


The Total Adjusted Character Renown (TACR) for the above 700 characters would be 658,000.

C5. Guild Total Renown = Guild Account Size Bogus * Total Adjusted Character Renown. Apply the Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) to the Total Adjusted Character Renown (TACR) of everyone in the guild.

In the example above, the total guild renown would be = 0.762387524 * 658000 or 501651 renown for a large guild that still has only a few actives.

But if all 190 accounts happen to log on at once after a big expansion, then the total guild renown would be 2.718 * (2.718 * 190 + 1000) / (190 * 1000) * 70000000 or 1518495.

C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reasons, the character gets to keep 50% of the renown (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4412821&postcount=44 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397680).

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Would the above system be fair for all? Why not? What adjustments would you make?
If the system can be viable or improved, I'll try to update it with suggestions.

Let's work together to find a better renown system so we can all can focus on more important matters like uhh...uh...sorry, gotta get back to farming renown. :D

MindCake
11-10-2012, 05:39 AM
Would the above system be fair for all? Why not? What adjustments would you make?
If the system can be viable or improved, I'll try to update it with suggestions.
Pray tell, what exactly is the purpose of this exercise?
What is fair? What is the goal?

Seems like this would roughly count the average renown per account, adjusted up or down by a factor depending on how much the guild plays the system.
But for "normal" guilds, with a bunch of people logging in every couple days, the SAA will be ~ number of accounts, ACR will be ~ total renown gathered.
So, Guild Total Renown = Guild Account Size Bonus * Total Adjusted Character Renown = Total Adjusted Character Renown * 6 / (Total Scaled Active Account) ~ 6 * Total renown gathered / number of accounts = 6 * average renown per account.

Now, if someone was to play the system, eg. forbid a group of guildies from logging in for 30 days, their accounts would stop counting for scaled active accounts, but their renown would still count for total (at 70%).

Like, your guild, 190 accounts, 700 characters of 100000 xp each. Say they log into all their characters for a farewell party, and then migrate en masse to GW2 for 30 days.
Except for the leader. He sits waiting.
After 30 days, adjusted guild size is 1. Adjusted total renown is 70%*700*100000 xp = 49 mil.
And so the guild total renown would be ~300 mil.
The leader buys best airship, fills it with shrines, and the guild returns...

Oh, and then they make another guild, and instead of going to GW2, they switch between the two on a 30 day schedule.
Yay.

Faxe
11-10-2012, 09:35 AM
Pray tell, what exactly is the purpose of this exercise?
What is fair? What is the goal?


The purpose is to help us find a better system. Fair is hard to know, but I think it's when the system does not inherently favor one group or play style over others. Some of the goals have been stated in the other threads.




Like, your guild, 190 accounts, 700 characters of 100000 xp each. Say they log into all their characters for a farewell party, and then migrate en masse to GW2 for 30 days.
Except for the leader. He sits waiting.
After 30 days, adjusted guild size is 1. Adjusted total renown is 70%*700*100000 xp = 49 mil.
And so the guild total renown would be ~300 mil.
The leader buys best airship, fills it with shrines, and the guild returns...

Oh, and then they make another guild, and instead of going to GW2, they switch between the two on a 30 day schedule.
Yay.

Wow! Great feedback. I had not thought of that.

So when the 190 accounts logs back on after 30 days, they are back to guild level 35 with the best airship and shrines. It won't last long.
Switching characters to another guild would just reset the renown for those characters in the new guild just like what we have now.

Faxe
11-10-2012, 09:45 AM
Now, if someone was to play the system, eg. forbid a group of guildies from logging in for 30 days, their accounts would stop counting for scaled active accounts, but their renown would still count for total (at 70%).


Would it be better to use the same cutoff days for characters/accounts?

MindCake
11-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Switching characters to another guild would just reset the renown for those characters in the new guild just like what we have now.
Right. I meant, they'd have two accounts each, and like, play one in odd months and the other in even months, that way they'd have full buffs all the time... though it'd be kinda bothersome.


Would it be better to use the same cutoff days for characters/accounts?

If the cutoffs were the same, a guild with one person would always beat a guild with multiple, because one guy is always on when he's on so he counts at 100%, and with multiple people some would be counting for less than that. So, to allow guilds with multiple players to level up, the renown drop rates would need to rise/ guild level requirements would need to drop.
And then it'd be a simple matter to create two (three/four) mega beefy guild rep guys. Make each a guild leader of Sploiters, Sploiters too, (Spoiters tree/ Sploiters fore).
Then, say everyone is in sploiters, and their shrines are beginning to disappear.
Leader of sploiters too buys shrines.
Everyone moves from sploiters to sploiters too.
They play there for a month, until the shrines begin disappearing, then move back to sploiters (or sploiters tree or fore, if there are additional measures in place).

Faxe
11-11-2012, 02:53 AM
Updated C2 in OP to include recent departures:

C2. Scaled Active Account (SAA). Scale the active account to the number of days since any character from the guild that the account had log in. Let's take 30 days as the active cutoff and 14 days as the recent departure cutoff. An account that had not logged on for 15 days would count as 0.5 account. An account that had departed 5 days ago would count as 0.64 account.

Scaled Active Account = (active_cutoff - days_since_last_on) / active_cutoff or (30-15)/30 = 0.5
Scaled Recent Account = (recent_cutoff - days_since_depature) / recent_cutoff or (14-5)/14 = 0.64


Updated C3 with a better formula based on 1000 accounts:
Guild Account Size Bonus (GASB) = renown_constant * (TSAA + 1000)/(TSAA*1000)
The renown_constant is just a number. It just means that a solo guild would need about 50,000,000/renown_constant to reach level 100.

I will try to run some numbers to see how those beefy rep guild leaders will do now :D

Faxe
11-12-2012, 02:33 AM
I have removed the recent departures from C2. The renown system already adjusts for it automatically. I do not see a need for it.

The formula for scaling guild bonus in C3 is tricky because it seems unfair by nature to have such a bonus. Our scaling bonus formula will be based on this simple scaling formula:
Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = small_size_bogus_factor * (large_size_bogus_factor * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

The small_size_bogus_factor will help small guilds. The large_size_bogus_factor will help guilds with large TSAA. The two bogus factors can be adjusted to be consistent with the current system. Since we try to be fair, let's set both factors to be 2.718 for our updated renown system.

So here is our new formula for Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)


Example 1:
Guild 1 has one beefy rep guild leader with one character that had collected 5,000,000 renown:
C2. TSAA = 1
C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 1 + 1000) / (1 * 1000) = 2.725387524
C4. TACR = 5,000,000
C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 2.725387524 * 5,000,000 = 13626937.62 or guild level 64.


Example 2:
Guild 10 has ten very active accounts with ten characters who had each collected 5,000,000 renown:
C2. TSAA = 10
C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 10 + 1000) / (10 * 1000) = 0.279187524
C4. TACR = 5,000,000 * 10 = 50,000,000
C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 0.279187524 * 50,000,000 = 13959376.2 guild level 65.

Example 3:
Guild 100 has one hundred very active accounts with 100 characters who had each collected 5,000,000 renown:
C2. TSAA = 100
C3. GASB = 2.718 * (2.718 * 100 + 1000) / (100 * 1000) = 0.034567524
C4. TACR = 5,000,000 * 100 = 500,000,000
C5. Guild Total Renown = GASB * TACR = 0.034567524 * 500,000,000 = 17283762 or guild level 70.


Guild Level 70 requires 17,150,000 renown. Here are the renown numbers to reach guild level 70 based on different TSAA. A solo guild would need 6,292,683 renown. A guild with 1000 active accounts would only need 1,697,092 renown per character. If the numbers seem to low or high, we can adjust the factors in the GASB formula.



TSAA GASB TACR TACR/TSAA
1 2.72538752 6,292,683 6,292,683
2 1.36638752 12,551,344 6,275,672
3 0.91338752 18,776,258 6,258,753
4 0.68688752 24,967,698 6,241,924
5 0.55098752 31,125,932 6,225,186
6 0.46038752 37,251,227 6,208,538
7 0.39567324 43,343,846 6,191,978
8 0.34713752 49,404,051 6,175,506
9 0.30938752 55,432,099 6,159,122
10 0.27918752 61,428,246 6,142,825
12 0.23388752 73,325,844 6,110,487
14 0.20153038 85,098,832 6,078,488
16 0.17726252 96,749,158 6,046,822
18 0.15838752 108,278,730 6,015,485
20 0.14328752 119,689,416 5,984,471
25 0.11610752 147,707,913 5,908,317
30 0.09798752 175,022,281 5,834,076
35 0.08504467 201,658,736 5,761,678
40 0.07533752 227,642,204 5,691,055
45 0.06778752 252,996,407 5,622,142
50 0.06174752 277,743,930 5,554,879
55 0.05680571 301,906,292 5,489,205
60 0.05268752 325,504,004 5,425,067
65 0.04920291 348,556,630 5,362,410
70 0.04621610 371,082,841 5,301,183
75 0.04362752 393,100,466 5,241,340
80 0.04136252 414,626,535 5,182,832
85 0.03936399 435,677,328 5,125,616
90 0.03758752 456,268,415 5,069,649
95 0.03599805 476,414,691 5,014,891
100 0.03456752 496,130,414 4,961,304
110 0.03209661 534,324,260 4,857,493
120 0.03003752 570,952,519 4,757,938
130 0.02829522 606,109,521 4,662,381
140 0.02680181 639,882,164 4,570,587
150 0.02550752 672,350,637 4,482,338
160 0.02437502 703,589,051 4,397,432
170 0.02337576 733,666,008 4,315,682
180 0.02248752 762,645,100 4,236,917
190 0.02169279 790,585,363 4,160,976
200 0.02097752 817,541,670 4,087,708
220 0.01974207 868,703,255 3,948,651
240 0.01871252 916,498,491 3,818,744
260 0.01784137 961,249,044 3,697,112
280 0.01709467 1,003,236,866 3,582,989
300 0.01644752 1,042,710,137 3,475,700
350 0.01515324 1,131,771,287 3,233,632
400 0.01418252 1,209,234,689 3,023,087
450 0.01342752 1,277,227,283 2,838,283
500 0.01282352 1,337,385,886 2,674,772
550 0.01232934 1,390,990,675 2,529,074
600 0.01191752 1,439,057,308 2,398,429
650 0.01156906 1,482,401,885 2,280,618
700 0.01127038 1,521,687,668 2,173,840
750 0.01101152 1,557,459,258 2,076,612
800 0.01078502 1,590,167,996 1,987,710
850 0.01058517 1,620,191,106 1,906,107
900 0.01040752 1,647,846,308 1,830,940
950 0.01024858 1,673,403,109 1,761,477
1000 0.01010552 1,697,091,610 1,697,092

Faxe
11-12-2012, 05:18 PM
I would like to explain a little about C1 (the first change) on why decay is not needed. It is because decay already
happens naturally. Players take breaks. People stopped playing. Extremely active players can quickly turn into extremely casuals because of RL changes. It is not fair to take renown away from players who are still playing or may come back some days.

Faxe
11-12-2012, 08:05 PM
I think the intention of tracking the recent departures was to deter guilds from booting everyone without consequences. The current system also takes away more renown when members are kicked vs when members leave on good terms. The way recent departures are tracked/remembered by account is neat. I do not see a need for it in this sytem at the moment even though it could be handy to discourage some of the switching problems that MindCake had brought up.

In addition to the guild being punished with recent departures, it does not feel fair to wipe away all the renown when a member is kicked or leaves the guild. On the other hand, the idea that a part of the renown is personal makes sense (brought up by others in the past and bartharok here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397680)

Proposed change number 6:
C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reason, the character keeps 25% of the renown.


Any obvious flaw with this change or the system? Or examples that would break it? Any interesting scenarios to test out with sample numbers?

Faxe
11-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Updated OP to add C6:
C6. Personal Renown . If a character leaves a guild for whatever reasons, the character gets to keep 50% of the renown.


The previous 25% seems a little low. While 50% is probably not ideal, it's probably the simplest change. Another idea could be to not remove any renown from the character, but apply it to any new guild gradually. For example, after you join a guild, the system applies 0.5% of your total renown per day so that after 200 days, 100% your total renown applies.

If this system works, I have some ideas on how we can migrate to it in a consistent and 'fair' way. But it's too early for that.

So far, there are not many feedbacks for improvements as compared an 'official' Let's TALK: Renown System thread. :(

MindCake
11-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Hmm. Depending on what you want, this could actually be approaching viable. I only see one exploit-ish thing, and it still requires lots of work, and more importantly, teamwork and coordination, which are the values guilds should promote, so it's allright!

So it seems a guild of about 100 hardcore and determined players, logging in every day, partying hard and earning ~10k renown every day, could hope to reach level 70 in about year and a half.

Problem: there's a huge disincentive to recruiting. A guild of 100, recruiting the 101th player will lose renown, and with it possibly levels, unless the newcomer can provide about 78% of the current member's rep. It gets "better" as the guild size grows- by 500 we're down to 42%, by 1000 down to 27%.
But to get a guild of that size to amount to anything, each and every member would need to be grinding rep, the dead weights would be discarded. To keep the other ones working, the leader would need some epic charisma... and a whole bureaucracy of officers to keep the thousands of follower logging in every day, earning tens of thousands of renown each... It's kind of scary, but only that kind of renown machine would have any interest in recruiting new players. If the numbers were growing sufficiently fast, the new members would pay their cost and begin supporting their guild after just a couple months of hard grinding.
But if the numbers didn't grow fast enough... say they remained in 1000s after 2 years, the new player would need to provide half-a-year worth of rep to even apply. Unless the leader had epic epic charisma+ and/or some other incentives, to really make the applicants WORK for the permission to join the recruitment would dwindle further, eventually the members would start dropping due to real life if not anything else, and the whole thing would collapse under its own weight.

Most if not all somewhat successful guilds would be groups of a handful of friends, playing at a similar rate. Each time one of the active players left, the guild would lose levels. As mentioned before, it'd be very difficult to recruit anyone new, so eventually the guild would become empty. Returning players would need to be kicked because they drag the guild back down (same as recruitment).

Dunno, that's sorta grimdark, but kind of fair, so maybe that's ok? (I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it though.)


Oh, and the exploit-ish thing:
Get a couple dozen of friends from different time zones. Make a shared account, and make a character there a guild leader. Have the friends take turns playing it, grinding renown 24/7, till they gather that 6.3 mil.
Kick everyone else. The guild rises to level 70ish. The leader buys all the shrines, then reinvites everyone. Repeat on ~bi-weekly basis to keep the shrines fresh.
Lots of work, some book keeping, but still an order of magnitude less than getting a dozen-or-so accounts to 6.1 mil.

Faxe
11-16-2012, 03:17 AM
lol it sounds like a horrid system worst than the current decay. I didn't realize that the recruiting disincentives could be that bad.

Yes, the guild would lose when an active player with lots of renown leaves. But no one else would lose any renown.
Since there is no decay, a returning player with lots of renown could actually help the guild unless the renowned player was kicked and lost 50% of it.

That's a lot of work for the exploity guild to get the level 70 buffs. Their large augment slots won't work once everyone joins and the guild goes back to level 1.
Or they could just play knowing that they will get to 70 in time and never lose anything to decay.

Here are the numbers for the level 70 guild after I increased the large size bonus to 7.388

New formula: Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718^2 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)
Notice that the needed rep really goes down much faster the more accounts we have now.

Adding an account
At 100 accounts, it's down to 57% from 78%
At 300 accounts, it's 31%
At 500 accounts, it's down to 21% from 42%
At 999 accounts, it's down to 12% from 27%

It's definitely harder to maintain large guilds, so it sort of make sense the numbers are lower with all the turnovers.
But I don't know what's the fair percentages here. The only fair thing I can say is that as large guild lose
members, their TSAA will adjust to the equivalent renown of other guilds with the lower TSAA and vice versa as
guilds gain members.

or can you exploit the low numbers with lots of accounts now?



TSAA GASB TACR TACR/TSAA
1 2.73807929 6,263,515 6,263,515
2 1.37907929 12,435,833 6,217,917
3 0.92607929 18,518,933 6,172,978
4 0.69957929 24,514,734 6,128,683
5 0.56367929 30,425,102 6,085,020
6 0.47307929 36,251,851 6,041,975
7 0.40836500 41,996,743 5,999,535
8 0.35982929 47,661,490 5,957,686
9 0.32207929 53,247,758 5,916,418
10 0.29187929 58,757,166 5,875,717
12 0.24657929 69,551,664 5,795,972
14 0.21422215 80,057,082 5,718,363
16 0.18995429 90,284,878 5,642,805
18 0.17107929 100,245,915 5,569,218
20 0.15597929 109,950,494 5,497,525
25 0.12879929 133,152,908 5,326,116
30 0.11067929 154,952,204 5,165,073
35 0.09773643 175,471,924 5,013,484
40 0.08802929 194,821,519 4,870,538
45 0.08047929 213,098,301 4,735,518
50 0.07443929 230,389,085 4,607,782
55 0.06949747 246,771,566 4,486,756
60 0.06537929 262,315,482 4,371,925
65 0.06189467 277,083,611 4,262,825
70 0.05890786 291,132,618 4,159,037
75 0.05631929 304,513,781 4,060,184
80 0.05405429 317,273,614 3,965,920
85 0.05205576 329,454,411 3,875,934
90 0.05027929 341,094,712 3,789,941
99 0.04753384 360,795,626 3,644,400
100 0.04725929 362,891,612 3,628,916
101 0.04699018 364,969,862 3,613,563
111 0.04456578 384,824,438 3,466,887
121 0.04254210 403,130,074 3,331,654
131 0.04082738 420,061,224 3,206,574
141 0.03935589 435,767,092 3,090,547
151 0.03807929 450,376,042 2,982,623
161 0.03696128 463,999,110 2,881,982
171 0.03597403 476,732,837 2,787,911
181 0.03509586 488,661,559 2,699,788
191 0.03430966 499,859,271 2,617,064
220 0.03243384 528,768,788 2,403,494
240 0.03140429 546,103,729 2,275,432
260 0.03053314 561,684,846 2,160,326
299 0.02916959 587,941,047 1,966,358
300 0.02913929 588,552,427 1,961,841
301 0.02910919 589,161,006 1,957,346
400 0.02687429 638,156,389 1,595,391
450 0.02611929 656,602,834 1,459,117
500 0.02551529 672,145,989 1,344,292
501 0.02550444 672,431,939 1,342,180
600 0.02460929 696,891,289 1,161,485
650 0.02426083 706,900,832 1,087,540
700 0.02396215 715,712,149 1,022,446
750 0.02370329 723,528,246 964,704
800 0.02347679 730,508,721 913,136
850 0.02327694 736,780,779 866,801
900 0.02309929 742,447,055 824,941
999 0.02280001 752,192,621 752,946
1000 0.02279729 752,282,391 752,282

MindCake
11-17-2012, 04:10 AM
But no one else would lose any renown.
Since there is no decay, a returning player with lots of renown could actually help the guild
Not really...
Say 10 people, 6mil renown each. One leaves for 3 or so months.
Meanwhile the others grind up to 7 mil each, so now they have ~20mil 290k renown, level 74 ftw.
The old guy returns, now they have ~20mil 139k, level 73.

Assuming they all earn renown at the same rate, they'd need to get some 7.5 mil each before the returning player stopped being a liability.

Faxe
11-17-2012, 01:26 PM
Not really...
Say 10 people, 6mil renown each. One leaves for 3 or so months.
Meanwhile the others grind up to 7 mil each, so now they have ~20mil 290k renown, level 74 ftw.
The old guy returns, now they have ~20mil 139k, level 73.

Assuming they all earn renown at the same rate, they'd need to get some 7.5 mil each before the returning player stopped being a liability.

Nice example. There would be no change when the old guy returns if we set the large size bonus to 16.667 although it will inflate the guild level a little.



GASB = 2.718 * (16.667 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

TSAA GASB TACR TACR/TSAA
1 2.76330091 6,206,345 6,206,345
2 1.40430091 12,212,482 6,106,241
3 0.95130091 18,027,945 6,009,315
4 0.72480091 23,661,670 5,915,418
5 0.58890091 29,122,047 5,824,409
6 0.49830091 34,416,955 5,736,159
7 0.43358662 39,553,804 5,650,543
8 0.38505091 44,539,565 5,567,446
9 0.34730091 49,380,810 5,486,757
10 0.31710091 54,083,731 5,408,373
11 0.29239182 58,654,173 5,332,198

with 9 members at 7mil the guild would have 21879957 (lvl 75).
with 9 members at 7mil + 1 returning at 6 mil, the guild would have 21879963 (lvl 75 still).


So let's move the large size bonus way up to 20.08 to see how things go.

Again, here are the numbers for the level 70 guild after I increased the large size bonus to 20.08

New formula: Guild Account Size Bogus (GASB) = 2.718 * (2.718^3 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

Adding an account
At 100 accounts, it's down to 33%
At 300 accounts, it's 14%
At 500 accounts, it's down to 9%
At 999 accounts, it's down to 4%


GASB = 2.718 * (20.08 * TSAA + 1000) / (TSAA * 1000)

TSAA GASB TACR TACR/TSAA
1 2.77257551 6,185,584 6,185,584
2 1.41357551 12,132,355 6,066,178
3 0.96057551 17,853,880 5,951,293
4 0.73407551 23,362,719 5,840,680
5 0.59817551 28,670,515 5,734,103
6 0.50757551 33,788,076 5,631,346
7 0.44286123 38,725,449 5,532,207
8 0.39432551 43,491,987 5,436,498
9 0.35657551 48,096,404 5,344,045
10 0.32637551 52,546,835 5,254,683
11 0.30166642 56,850,875 5,168,261
14 0.24871837 68,953,492 4,925,249
16 0.22445051 76,408,826 4,775,552
18 0.20557551 83,424,334 4,634,685
20 0.19047551 90,037,821 4,501,891
25 0.16329551 105,024,320 4,200,973
30 0.14517551 118,132,872 3,937,762
35 0.13223265 129,695,650 3,705,590
40 0.12252551 139,970,851 3,499,271
45 0.11497551 149,162,199 3,314,716
50 0.10893551 157,432,594 3,148,652
55 0.10399369 164,913,848 2,998,434
60 0.09987551 171,713,765 2,861,896
65 0.09639090 177,921,368 2,737,252
70 0.09340408 183,610,819 2,623,012
75 0.09081551 188,844,393 2,517,925
80 0.08855051 193,674,772 2,420,935
85 0.08655198 198,146,821 2,331,139
90 0.08477551 202,298,987 2,247,767
99 0.08203006 209,069,709 2,111,815
100 0.08175551 209,771,792 2,097,718
101 0.08148640 210,464,563 2,083,808
111 0.07906200 216,918,375 1,954,220
121 0.07703832 222,616,483 1,839,806
131 0.07532360 227,684,277 1,738,048
141 0.07385211 232,220,864 1,646,956
151 0.07257551 236,305,605 1,564,938
161 0.07145750 240,002,804 1,490,701
171 0.07047025 243,365,116 1,423,188
181 0.06959209 246,436,069 1,361,525
191 0.06880588 249,251,963 1,304,984
220 0.06693006 256,237,645 1,164,717
240 0.06590051 260,240,775 1,084,337
260 0.06502936 263,727,043 1,014,335
299 0.06366581 269,375,344 900,921
300 0.06363551 269,503,612 898,345
301 0.06360541 269,631,147 895,785
400 0.06137051 279,450,175 698,625
450 0.06061551 282,930,883 628,735
500 0.06001151 285,778,507 571,557
501 0.06000066 285,830,187 570,519
600 0.05910551 290,159,069 483,598
650 0.05875705 291,879,871 449,046
700 0.05845837 293,371,173 419,102
750 0.05819951 294,676,016 392,901
800 0.05797301 295,827,313 369,784
850 0.05777316 296,850,659 349,236
900 0.05759551 297,766,262 330,851
999 0.05729623 299,321,605 299,621
1000 0.05729351 299,335,819 299,336


So now our example guild
with 9 members at 7mil the guild would have 22,464,257 (or level 76 yay!).
with 9 members at 7mil + 1 returning at 6mil, the guild would have 22,519,910 (lvl 76 still, but 55k more renown, yay! more returning players!)