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stefferweffer
10-24-2012, 03:18 PM
As a Palemaster right now, I can heal myself if I need to. But before Palemaster I was in the habit of bringing a Cleric along with me, and I frequently still do (sometimes just as a spell point battery).

I had read somewhere that quests scale the monsters within to the number of persons in the party/group. DOes that include hirelings? Cause it seems like certain quests have so many enemies that I don't know how someone would be expected to get through without a healer, or self healing.

In short, am I better off at this point just going full time undead form and going in without a hireling? Would there be less enemies to fight if I don't bring a hireling with me?

Thanks.

xoowak
10-24-2012, 03:23 PM
Hirelings count, but less than a second player would.

Missing_Minds
10-24-2012, 03:26 PM
I think it is plat hireling = 0.5 player.
Panther = 1 player.
Not certain on gold seal hirelings.

TrinityTurtle
10-24-2012, 03:30 PM
I don't know about the mechanics answer, but think of it like taking an add toddler everywhere you go. They can be a real asset, but need to be properly managed and herded at all times. :)

redspecter23
10-24-2012, 03:32 PM
I'd prefer if hirelings didn't count at all toward scaling as they contribute very little compared to an actual player. Up until now, the best uses for hirelings have been pulling levers and burst healing toons that don't have the ability to do that themselves. Other niche uses include hireling rogues disarming traps and that one lv 11 hireling with Dimension Door for toons that don't have that ability so they can run content faster. I summon my panther when I am actually looking to scale up the quest on purpose and I just park him so he doesn't die. I'll do this in challenges where I'm solo, but my score is based on my number of kills. The panther being there gives me more things to kill.

Bringing hirelings for their offensive capabilities is just laughable outside of a few of the caster hirelings in norm or hard content. I've only ever used them to fill in very specific roles that can't be filled by the group, typically because the group consists of no divines/arcanes.

Cogdoc
10-24-2012, 03:40 PM
As a Palemaster right now, I can heal myself if I need to. But before Palemaster I was in the habit of bringing a Cleric along with me, and I frequently still do (sometimes just as a spell point battery).

I had read somewhere that quests scale the monsters within to the number of persons in the party/group. DOes that include hirelings? Cause it seems like certain quests have so many enemies that I don't know how someone would be expected to get through without a healer, or self healing.

In short, am I better off at this point just going full time undead form and going in without a hireling? Would there be less enemies to fight if I don't bring a hireling with me?

Thanks.

Dungeons scale up measuring 1 whole person for a second player, 0.5 for a plat bought hire, 0.25 for a gold seal hire, compared to what you would get if you would be soloing it.

Cogdoc

Peter_Principle
10-24-2012, 04:39 PM
Other niche uses include hireling rogues disarming traps


You can get rogue hirelings? Where do you go to buy those?

BlkDrgn28
10-24-2012, 04:45 PM
Rogue hirelings from levels 1-20 are only available as Gold Seal hirelings (only available via DDO Store with TP). Epic level (21+) hirelings can be purchased in Eveningstar (available for purchase with plat).

Talon_Moonshadow
10-24-2012, 04:54 PM
Trying to keep them alive does. :cool:

countfitz
10-24-2012, 04:57 PM
I think it is plat hireling = 0.5 player.
Panther = 1 player.
Not certain on gold seal hirelings.

According to the wiki it's plat hireling = 0.5 player, and gold seal and panther even less than that (0.25 I believe).

EllisDee37
10-25-2012, 01:24 AM
You're better off soloing in undead form without a hire. You can bring one for extra mana, but just park them at the entrance and call them when you need to charge up.

Lots of enemies isn't an issue for a PM. In fact, that's almost better. Get a good shield with high blocking DR, meaning a crafted one. These can easily be crafted for you; all you have to do is get any shield of the proper base type: (Base type in yellow.)

ML9: +3 Battle Shield of Axeblock
ML13: +5 Magecraft Shield of Axeblock
ML16: +5 Mountain Shield of Axeblock

Do not equip this shield. Instead, keep your normal casting weapon(s) equipped. Turn on aura, run around to gather up a bunch of mobs and cast your favorite aoe dot. (Firewall, Ice Storm, or Acid Rain.) Once cast, swap to the shield and shield block. The spell power of the spells is locked in at casting, so it won't drop when you switch to the shield.

This works particularly well if you also craft a Dagger of Hammerblock and set that as the mainhand weapon in your shield weaponset. Double bonus points if you keep ring of the mire or bramble-casters equipped for spearblock as part of your normal gear.

Shield blocking DR stacks with regular DR. So if you have an axeblock shield, hammerblock dagger and spearblock ring, that's now like DR 17/- vs physical damage starting at level 16. (DR 16 at level 13, and something like DR 13 at level 9.) This dr combined with aura keeps you alive while the hordes of angry mobs die to the one spell you cast.

This same strategy works well for solo torc farming, except instead of aoe dots you just use niac's biting cold. Be sure to swap out of the shield before stacking it, though.

Demsac
10-25-2012, 01:34 AM
Uh you have the same number of enemies with or without the hireling but in like one quest (weapon shipment? havnt ran this since before the change so not 100% sure how it works) Their damage/hit points scales

Cogdoc
10-25-2012, 04:42 AM
...
Shield blocking DR stacks with regular DR. So if you have an axeblock shield, hammerblock dagger and spearblock ring, that's now like DR 17/- vs physical damage starting at level 16. (DR 16 at level 13, and something like DR 13 at level 9.) This dr combined with aura keeps you alive while the hordes of angry mobs die to the one spell you cast.
...

Just in case any newbies read this, it is NOT how DR stacking works. Axeblock, hammerblock and spearblock will not stack each of their 5 DR to a full 15 DR (that would be too powerful). If you are interested in how passive DR and active blocking works, let me point you to:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Active_blocking

http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction

EDIT: Scratch that, I misread the post...dont mind me.

Cogdoc

Lonnbeimnech
10-25-2012, 05:09 AM
Also the damage of traps scales with party size.

EllisDee37
10-25-2012, 05:18 PM
Just in case any newbies read this, it is NOT how DR stacking works. Axeblock, hammerblock and spearblock will not stack each of their 5 DR to a full 15 DR (that would be too powerful). If you are interested in how passive DR and active blocking works, let me point you to:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Active_blocking

http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction

EDIT: Scratch that, I misread the post...dont mind me.

CogdocTo clarify for any new players who may not understand:

Equipping axeblock, hammerblock and spearblock all at the same time gives you a normal DR 5/-, meaning all incoming physical damage gets 5 taken off the top. Shield blocking stacks with normal DR, and is also DR/-, meaning it reduces all incoming physical damage.

The three shields I listed (+3 battle, +5 magewright, +5 mountain) give blocking DR of 8, 11 and 12. With the 5/- normal DR cobbled together via the three "block" items, that makes DR 13/-, DR 16/- and DR 17/- while shield blocking.

Note: For extra defensive goodness, look for battle, magewright and mountain shields with guild augments and slot in an augment of Shielding for a little extra stacking fortification while shield blocking.

EDIT: A shield's blocking DR is listed in the shield's description at the top. It's a simple formula, though: Base + Enhancement. Enhancement is the "+" value of the shield, so a +3 shield gets 3 blocking dr added to its base.

Base Blocking DR
4: Tower shield, absolute ML0
5: Battle shield, absolute ML4
6: Magewright shield, absolute ML10
7: Mountain shield, absolute ML16

The specific shields I listed take into account minimum levels for the crafted versions, assuming no masterful craftsmanship.

stefferweffer
10-25-2012, 06:39 PM
If I recall correctly, Zombie form comes with an automatic 5 DR. So in Zombie Form a Wizard with this strategy just needs the shield, right?

EllisDee37
10-25-2012, 08:26 PM
Yes, though I generally don't bother with pale master until wraith form.

stefferweffer
10-26-2012, 11:59 AM
To clarify for any new players who may not understand:

Equipping axeblock, hammerblock and spearblock all at the same time gives you a normal DR 5/-, meaning all incoming physical damage gets 5 taken off the top. Shield blocking stacks with normal DR, and is also DR/-, meaning it reduces all incoming physical damage.

The three shields I listed (+3 battle, +5 magewright, +5 mountain) give blocking DR of 8, 11 and 12. With the 5/- normal DR cobbled together via the three "block" items, that makes DR 13/-, DR 16/- and DR 17/- while shield blocking.

Note: For extra defensive goodness, look for battle, magewright and mountain shields with guild augments and slot in an augment of Shielding for a little extra stacking fortification while shield blocking.

EDIT: A shield's blocking DR is listed in the shield's description at the top. It's a simple formula, though: Base + Enhancement. Enhancement is the "+" value of the shield, so a +3 shield gets 3 blocking dr added to its base.

Base Blocking DR
4: Tower shield, absolute ML0
5: Battle shield, absolute ML4
6: Magewright shield, absolute ML10
7: Mountain shield, absolute ML16

The specific shields I listed take into account minimum levels for the crafted versions, assuming no masterful craftsmanship.
OK, so I just bought a +3 Fire Guard Battle Shield from the AH (figured fire guard would speed things up too). But on my char sheet, when in zombie form, it still only shows my 5 DR. The shield says it provides 8DR of its own. Even if I hold down shift to block, the character sheet does not show increased DR from the shield. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.

LordPiglet
10-26-2012, 12:48 PM
OK, so I just bought a +3 Fire Guard Battle Shield from the AH (figured fire guard would speed things up too). But on my char sheet, when in zombie form, it still only shows my 5 DR. The shield says it provides 8DR of its own. Even if I hold down shift to block, the character sheet does not show increased DR from the shield. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.

IIRC, you have to look at the inventory sheet, and Details on the bottoms section (where it shows what weapon you have on) to see the blocking DR.

EllisDee37
10-26-2012, 05:42 PM
OK, so I just bought a +3 Fire Guard Battle Shield from the AH (figured fire guard would speed things up too). But on my char sheet, when in zombie form, it still only shows my 5 DR. The shield says it provides 8DR of its own. Even if I hold down shift to block, the character sheet does not show increased DR from the shield. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.Nope, you have it right. The character sheet shows passive dr only. Shield blocking is active dr, which stacks with passive dr, so you add them both together.

sigtrent
10-26-2012, 05:58 PM
Yes, though I generally don't bother with pale master until wraith form.

Zombie is actually pretty good. I discounted it on paper but it really increases surviveability, especially soloing. Having 100% fort and 5/- DR as well as various resistances to poison, disease, and negative energy at level 6 is pretty amazing. Throw on resists and the aura and you are a hard nut to crack, especially compared to your average wizard.

My zombie wizard character was far better at soloing many quests that a great many other characters I've played at that level. You just become hyper aware of keeping haste up and running at all times.

doomboy
10-27-2012, 06:03 AM
i don't know about it in dungeon scaling terms, but in making sure they help you out, hirelings can go either way.
if you like to micro manage them during quests, they can easily become a pain. however, i usually let them do whatever they feel like till i really need them, and they always work out well for me.

fco-karatekid
10-27-2012, 06:14 AM
According to the wiki it's plat hireling = 0.5 player, and gold seal and panther even less than that (0.25 I believe).

The panther scales the dungeon much more than that - that may not have been the _intent_, but it's true - run Cannith Manufactury without the panther, then again with it... significant scaling there.

sandypaws
10-27-2012, 09:50 AM
Nope, you have it right. The character sheet shows passive dr only. Shield blocking is active dr, which stacks with passive dr, so you add them both together.

If you want to make absolutely certain of this through personal experience, stand in front of things without blocking. Then block. There will be a very significant damage reduction (you also get additional blocking DR based on your base attack bonus).