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stefferweffer
10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
I'm a 7 wiz/1 rog Palemaster who is about to level up. Based on the advice of others I will probably take Rogue as my next level, on my path to 18 wiz/2 rog.

I had become frustrated with enemy saves a few levels ago, so I'm running now in favor of spells that don't give saves, primarily Scorching Ray and Fire Wall (both boosted by 128 fire spell power). This system is working fine right now, as long as I don't run out of SP.

But I know that eventually I will need to depend on other spells that allow for saves, and I also have heard that eventually enemies get spell resistance, which works separately from the saves?

I don't have the Heighten Feat yet, but I assume I will want that soon. But I also don't have Extend or Maximize, and I think I will want those too. My Int is 27 right now (after gear). I'm trying to save up for an Int + 2 tome.

I guess my main questions are: 1) At what point will I want/need to "Heighten" spells?, and 2) At what point will I want to take the Spell Resistance line of Enhancements (which seem to be expensive)?

Thanks again for your help.

Rawrargh
10-16-2012, 02:37 PM
You get finger of death at your 13th wizard level, assuming you go through with the plan you stated below, you'll get finger of death at level 15. It's gonna be your go to spell from then on out along with circle of death until level 19 where you get wail of the banshee.

You'll be able to heighten it at level 17 and boost the DC by one, at level 19 you'll be able to boost it by two.

You're gonna get a wizard feat at level 17, that'd probably be a pretty good place to get it.

Spell penetration doesn't become THAT big of an issue until you start vale, however once you get there it's extremely frustrating if your spell pen doesn't cut it (I'm assuming you're on your first life here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) and you already lost 2 points of spell penetration from the rogue splash so I'd definately try to squeeze in both spell penetration feats before level 16.

That's just my experience from running a first life wiz/rogue... Hope it helps.

stefferweffer
10-16-2012, 02:50 PM
Yes, I am free to play and also first life (first character actually). Do I need to be a "member" to have access to this Vale you mention?

unbongwah
10-16-2012, 03:25 PM
"Vale" = Vale of Twilight (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Vale_of_Twilight), arguably the single most important quest pack just for the Shroud raid - or more precisely, greensteel crafting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Item).

Enoach
10-16-2012, 03:49 PM
While you will run into a few Teifling/Drow about your current Level spell penetration becomes a greater concern about the time you start fighting Devils/Demons/Drow on a regular basis. Generally this is more common in the 16+ Level Range. Vale of the Twilight (Adventure Pack) will start your serious Devil/Demon fighting.

At earlier levels the best goto spell for controlling teifling and drow is Web.

You can boost your DC by using Heighten, but a more economical way to boost Web DC is to grab a Conjuration DC Item for +1 DC at the cost of wearing/holding item (common in bracer/scepter), if possible get a greater conjuration Item for +2 DC.

You can also keep your eye out for Spell Penetration items. These can be switched in to help boost your Spell Pen when trying to cast against creatures with Spell Resistance.

If an archmage build you can utilize cheap spells like hypnotism SLA to help reduce the will save. Any actually hypnotized is just a bonus.

Honestly I look to have Heighten by my 11th Wizard Level and spell penetration feats by 15th/16th Level.


Spells that are you friend when you have a low DC
1. Symbol of Death <- Each negative level brings their saves down
2. Mind Fog <- An AoE -10 will save is hard to beat
3. Circle of Death <- Barring Spell Resistance the negative level or die spell is a great way to thin out a large pack - Watch the timer though

Maatogaeoth
10-16-2012, 03:53 PM
Vale of Twilight is a special pack you have to buy or be VIP to access.

Either way, it's worth it as people run those quests a LOT.

Monkeytoe
10-16-2012, 04:53 PM
...economical way to boost Web DC is to grab a Conjuration DC Item for +1 DC at the cost of wearing/holding item (common in bracer/scepter), if possible get a greater conjuration Item for +2 DC.


Like Enoach writes, spell focus items are very usefull. A +1 focus item can be crafted by a character with less than 20 crafting levels, a +2 (Greater) focus item needs a little over 50 crafting levels. You should seek to find, buy or craft some spell focus items.

EllisDee37
10-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Personally I don't worry about spell pen until 18, when I take my first spell pen feat. At 20 I use the free feat respec to swap out mental toughness for greater spell pen, then at 21 I take epic spell pen.

For spell resistant mobs I just damage them down with dot aoes (acid rain, ice storm, firewall) or single target nukes (scorching ray, frost lance, necrotic ray, lightning bolt) and call it good enough.

I detailed my pale master 18/2 rogue splash build in the "Pale Trapper" thread linked in signature.

As for heighten, I take that at 17. (Quicken at 15 for dball.)

stefferweffer
10-16-2012, 06:46 PM
On a somewhat related matter. If I take the Quicken feat can I stop putting points into Concentration? I've been adding points to Concentration every level, but I'd rather put those points elsewhere if I won't need Con very high with Quicken.

ZeebaNeighba
10-16-2012, 06:54 PM
On a somewhat related matter. If I take the Quicken feat can I stop putting points into Concentration? I've been adding points to Concentration every level, but I'd rather put those points elsewhere if I won't need Con very high with Quicken.Only if you leave quicken on all the time, which is an extra 10 SP (can be reduced a little, to like 6, with enhancements) on every spell you quicken. Also, if you get hit while casting something from a scroll, you will need to make a concentration check regardless of quicken spell.

But if you're a wizard, honestly, you should be putting everything you have into intelligence, and int gives more skills points...it's kinda rare to see a wizard run into shortages. If you started with 18 intelligence, and put +1 in at levels 4 and 8 each, you should get 7 skill points each level to spend, which, in my opinion, should be 2 in search, 2 in disable device, 2 in use magic device and 1 in concentration. Once you get that +2 int tome, each level after you'll get yet another skill point...

EllisDee37
10-16-2012, 06:59 PM
On a somewhat related matter. If I take the Quicken feat can I stop putting points into Concentration?Not really, no. As an example, the only time I ever use quicken is for dball and neg energy burst. For every other spell I cast quicken is off.

stefferweffer
10-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Sorry, but what is "dball"? Thanks again.

JollySwagMan
10-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Just chipping in from an Archmage perspective, Heighten can be desirable as early as level 6 in order to apply it to the Hypnotism SLA (Enchantment), though my favourite is the Web SLA at level 9 (Conjuration II). There's some really nice synergy between Web and Acid Rain, plus other spells can be added to the mix.

Some of the great things about Web are that it doesn't require spell pen, isn't broken by most forms of damage against mobs and works on a wide variety of critters. The bad thing is that it can be burned away, especially by 'friendly' Fireballs.

Before levelling to 9 might also look into whether there are any feat swaps you're interested in, the price increases at 5, 9, 13 and 17. I recommend refraining from completing Lockania's Dragonmark quiz/quest in the Marketplace until 13+.

Later on, there's also a free Lesser Reincarnation that can be used. A neat perk of reincarnations is that they allow for the build to benefit as though the character had eaten each level of tome leading up to the tome's bonus, at the minimum level. Thus a character can gain more skillpoints, and/or build in feats with stat requirements more easily.

For example, say the character doesn't acquire a +2 int tome until level 16. The character can gain some skillpoints by reincarnating, with the tome kicking in as +1 at level 3, and +2 at level 7.

In the case of a Rogue splash character, one might be able to squeeze out some more skillpoints from an 18/2 by LR-ing the second Rogue level to be level 20 when the character's at its highest Int.

Or if it's a TWF melee, having a +2 Dex tome kick in at level 7 is a feature of many a forum build!

Or for a Monk, who might want to readjust their stats for better stance options after acquiring a full set of tomes from raids...

etc.

Dielzen
10-17-2012, 12:28 AM
Sorry, but what is "dball"? Thanks again.

Heck, it took me a few minutes to figure it out, and I play casters primarily. It's Otto's Sphere of Dancing (http://ddowiki.com/page/Otto%27s_Sphere_of_Dancing), which creates a "disco ball" effect. It has a rather long casting time, so it's common for Bards/Wizards to get Quicken, just for this one spell.

stefferweffer
10-17-2012, 01:16 AM
Well, quite frankly I dumped CHA (still at 8 right now) because I didn't think I'd be needing it, and I haven't touched UMD. I was adding points into Spot each level because I had also dumped WIS, and I wanted to see where the traps are (this being the first time I have ever been any of these places). But someone earlier made a good point about Evasion and Insightful Reflexes and traps - that its not the end of the world if I find the traps the old fashioned way - by running into them, IF I make the save. Assuming that all traps go against "React", then I should take little/no damage (unless I'm understanding incorrectly).

So at level 9 my skills look something like this right now: 20 Concentration, 23 Disable Device, 19 Search, 18 Spot, and nothing else increased (as best I remember). I use +5 tools, a +7 spot item, and a +5 Disable Device Item. I also use Heroism and Human Versatility 2 to boost these even further. Right now I can spot and disarm any trap my level or lower on Hard.

So should I 1) Stop putting points in Concentration and take "Quicken" instead?, and 2) Stop putting points in Spot and instead try to max out Use Magic Device? Thus far the only magic devices I have used have been wizard items anyway (wands), so there was no problem. Are there items later on that are so essential that I will want "Use Magic Device"? Should I also find some ways to boost my Charisma because of this?

Lastly, does Quicken also shorten the recharge time of spells?

Thanks again for the help. I REALLY appreciate it.

Cogdoc
10-17-2012, 02:11 AM
Well, quite frankly I dumped CHA (still at 8 right now) because I didn't think I'd be needing it, and I haven't touched UMD. I was adding points into Spot each level because I had also dumped WIS, and I wanted to see where the traps are (this being the first time I have ever been any of these places). But someone earlier made a good point about Evasion and Insightful Reflexes and traps - that its not the end of the world if I find the traps the old fashioned way - by running into them, IF I make the save. Assuming that all traps go against "React", then I should take little/no damage (unless I'm understanding incorrectly).

So at level 9 my skills look something like this right now: 20 Concentration, 23 Disable Device, 19 Search, 18 Spot, and nothing else increased (as best I remember). I use +5 tools, a +7 spot item, and a +5 Disable Device Item. I also use Heroism and Human Versatility 2 to boost these even further. Right now I can spot and disarm any trap my level or lower on Hard.

So should I 1) Stop putting points in Concentration and take "Quicken" instead?, and 2) Stop putting points in Spot and instead try to max out Use Magic Device? Thus far the only magic devices I have used have been wizard items anyway (wands), so there was no problem. Are there items later on that are so essential that I will want "Use Magic Device"? Should I also find some ways to boost my Charisma because of this?

Lastly, does Quicken also shorten the recharge time of spells?

Thanks again for the help. I REALLY appreciate it.

Hello there, and welcome to DDO!

Dumping CHA and not taking UMD is not a critical mistake in your build, as you can cast a lot of spells already being a wizard, and you can also self heal being a pale master. UMD would make you be able to help others in your party, mind you, but nothing what anyone would absolutely expect from your character to have.

Having said that, UMD is _the_ most valuable skill in the game. period. in case you, or any other new player would be wondering.

I would say, that if you didnt put any effort into raising your UMD so far, dont start it now half way. Just carry on with putting points into spot, and you might want to try UMD in your next life after your true reincarnate, or on another character.

The other question you asked, concentration. On every caster who wants to cast in a fight, I would say that concentration is a must have. You dont want to have your spells interrupted, and you also might not be able to afford having quicken on all the time. I run casters with sp pools between 2k and 3k and I wouldnt waste my sp on quickening everything.

Also its a very good thing that you came onto the forums to ask. Well done.

Cogdoc

Cogdoc
10-17-2012, 03:43 AM
...
I don't have the Heighten Feat yet, but I assume I will want that soon. But I also don't have Extend or Maximize, and I think I will want those too. My Int is 27 right now (after gear). I'm trying to save up for an Int + 2 tome.

I guess my main questions are: 1) At what point will I want/need to "Heighten" spells?, and 2) At what point will I want to take the Spell Resistance line of Enhancements (which seem to be expensive)?

Thanks again for your help.

I have just realized that in your original question you have asked about the heighten spell feat as well. On wizards, who are arguably the masters of DC and CC, and can achieve the highest DC on enhancement, conjuration, necromany with the least investment of all classes, I would absolutely say get heighten as soon as you can fit it into your build. Even at level 6, as someone else has already mentioned, it can already heighten web and hypnotism, two useful crowd control spells, and it will only get better.

About Extend, after an update what has happened not long ago, extend only applies to buffs, what is still nice, but not absolutely required for a wizard to have. Sure its comfortable to have double time on the buffs, but its better if your crowd control lands on mobs. I dont take extend on any of my casters, but dont read this as an only option, others do take extend and I am sure their build is also working perfectly.

Maximize can also be a nice addition. Wizards tend to use CC and insta kill spells, more than any other class, especially on high levels. None of these is worth to be maximized. But again there is nothing wrong with placing a maximized wall of fire under a group of frost mephits. At least not from your point of view anyway, the mephits might think otherwise...:) And occasionally you will be required to dish out some major damage. Sure you can cc and instakill a lot of mobs, but when the time comes to kill a red named and in the shortest time possible, flash out maximize and dot away, or whatever other damage spell you can think of.

Cogdoc

sandypaws
10-17-2012, 07:03 AM
I'm personally a big fan of spot, and generally take it on any toon I have, half-ranks or otherwise.
My primary motivation is that there are a lot of critters that are both trippers and stealthers, and I prefer to see them before 2-3 of 'em are spam tripping me. Does it happen super-often? No. But it is super-annoying, if not generally fatal.

Regarding traps, unless you religiously keep spot maxed (I assume you have an 8 wis toon?) and have the highest +spot item you can find (or a GH thrown in with a slightly lower +spot), you will often miss the trap on elite. If anything, I would say that you could maybe get a little leeway out of your disable device. Since it's int-based and you have +skill tools to help with it, yours should be super-high. Don't drop it too much, though, and I'd suggest checking out trap difficulty checks for quests at your level on the wiki. The last thing you want is a blown box.

EllisDee37
10-17-2012, 07:49 AM
So at level 9 my skills look something like this right now: 20 Concentration, 23 Disable Device, 19 Search, 18 Spot, and nothing else increased (as best I remember). I use +5 tools, a +7 spot item, and a +5 Disable Device Item. I also use Heroism and Human Versatility 2 to boost these even further. Right now I can spot and disarm any trap my level or lower on Hard.Dumping UMD is fine. There are pretty much two things and two things only that umd is good for on a pale master: raise dead scrolls and heal scrolls for your other party members. Other than that, it's just a skill point sink for the extras.

Your skills sound a bit limited, to be honest. In the Pale Trapper build from my signature, with no tomes of any kind it ends up with the following ranks by 7/1:

10 Concentration
11 Disable Device
11 Search
11 Spot
4 UMD
4 Balance
4 Bluff
4 Haggle
4 Jump
4 Move Silently
4 Open Lock
4 Swim
4 Tumble

The next level in that build is rogue, where it takes:

8 umd
3 balance (or 3 open lock)
1 search
1 spot
1 disable device


So should I 1) Stop putting points in Concentration and take "Quicken" instead?I can't stress the following enough:

You NEED concentration maxed (and with gear bonuses as well) because the vast majority of your casting will not have quicken running.

You NEED quicken because some critically useful spells take far, far too long to cast without it.

It is not an either/or situation. Both are absolutely required.

(Quicken does not reduce the cooldown of spells.)

stefferweffer
10-17-2012, 07:53 AM
"Blown box"? Is this referring to traps later in the game that only give you one chance to Disable them? As a ftp first lifer, first character, I have not encountered this before and thus know very little about it.

Because of my 8 WIS (9 actually because I did recently find and consume a + 1 WIS tome), it seems when I level that I can only put 1 skill point into spot. Is this just because my WIS is so low? Like I said, I use the best + Spot item, Heroism, Human Ingenuity and even the WIS buff to get me "over the hump" if necessarry.

Regarding "Use Magic Device" being arguably the most important skill in the game, can I get a little more insight into this please? I certainly don't want to be a terrible person to group with at later levels just because I skipped this skill?

Does the game have anything like a "Skill Reset" option? I'm not adverse to redoing things and putting points into UMD instead if that is what is needed at higher levels.

Thanks again for all your help. You guys are great!

EllisDee37
10-17-2012, 07:58 AM
Skill Points have a maximum of your current character level + 3. Right now at 7/1 your character is level 8. That means the most ranks you can have in any skill is 8+3=11. Assuming you have 11 in spot right now, when you take your next level your new max will be 12, meaning you can only put 1 more rank on that skill.

FranOhmsford
10-17-2012, 08:09 AM
"Blown box"? Is this referring to traps later in the game that only give you one chance to Disable them? As a ftp first lifer, first character, I have not encountered this before and thus know very little about it.
Thanks again for all your help. You guys are great!

If you've not blown a single box from Lvl 1-8 I'd say you either been extremely lucky OR Have done a fantastic job of maximising your Disable Device score with Gear, Enhancements etc.
I hope you didn't take Nimble Fingers or Skill Focus Disable Feats?

There's a trapbox in Durk's Got a Secret with {I believe} a DC of 32 on Elite {In a Lvl 4 Quest if you're running Bravery}.
It is very very easy for Pure Rogues {never mind splash builds - Of which Wiz is easily the best} to blow this trap box.

The System is that if you fail the DC of the Trap by 5 or more {say you rolled 27 total vs that box in Durk's} then the box will blow up.

UMD is for Raise Dead, Heal and FoM on a Wizard {All extremely useful spells} - Raise Dead scrolls for instance allow you to get the Party Cleric/Soul/Bard up if they go down.
Heal allows you to chip in with self healing {not a big thing for a Pale Master BUT you can use Heal Scrolls on others when there's no true healer in the party}.
FoM was nerfed heavily a couple of updates ago but can still be nice to have.

The reason you'll hear people call UMD the most important skill in the game is because of the proliferation of BYOH and be self sufficient LFM's - If you play in a regular group with friends then things are different but if you expect to Pug at high levels then unfortunately you will be expected to have a super high UMD {With a Base Charisma of 8 and half pts max this would mean a severe grind even if you'd started maxing UMD - But to start now at Lvl 8 - You'll never get there.}.

The only way to reset Skills btw is to Reincarnate {Lesser will do}.



About Extend, after an update what has happened not long ago, extend only applies to buffs, what is still nice, but not absolutely required for a wizard to have. Sure its comfortable to have double time on the buffs, but its better if your crowd control lands on mobs. I dont take extend on any of my casters, but dont read this as an only option, others do take extend and I am sure their build is also working perfectly.

Cogdoc

Extend works on Death Aura, Lesser Death Aura, Haste, Rage, Displacement - For me it's an absolute necessity on a Pale Master.

johnnyputrid
10-17-2012, 08:28 AM
Regarding "Use Magic Device" being arguably the most important skill in the game, can I get a little more insight into this please? I certainly don't want to be a terrible person to group with at later levels just because I skipped this skill?

Use Magic Device (UMD) is important because of what it lets you do, which is use items that your class normally would not be able to. The biggest reason people invest in UMD is Heal scrolls. Self-healing on melee-oriented characters is very limited at higher levels, so being able to throw out a 110-point heal on yourself with a scroll is a huge boon. Some of the more common items to apply UMD to are Raise Dead scrolls, Teleport scrolls, Fireshield scrolls, Blur wands, True Chaos/Pure Good weaponry.

The only problem with UMD is that it takes a lot of investment to pay off, especially for newer players who don't have the gear. For example, the UMD requirement to no-fail (as in, not waste) a Heal scroll is 39. It can be tough getting such a high skill modifier.

Now, is UMD critical to your success at higher levels? Not on a self-healing pale master. Nobody is going to expect a wizard to be able to UMD Raise Dead scrolls at end game anyway - your job will be to utterly destroy or immobilize anything that gets in your party's way.

EllisDee37
10-17-2012, 08:47 AM
UMD is for Raise Dead, Heal and FoM on a WizardWhere can you buy FoM scrolls?

If it's unpurchasable, add Harm scrolls to the list of useful UMD scrolls for pale masters.

stefferweffer
10-17-2012, 09:20 AM
No, I did not take any Rogue/Trap skill feats. No, I have never seen a "blown" box before. I have had Disable Device maxed at all times, because I had heard how important it is. Now there were some levels where we were so underleveled that I could not even FIND the device. I suppose that if I had found those traps they would have "blown" (I guess meaning that you can't try any more? Does it also damage me?). Keep in mind that I so almost exclusively on Normal or Hard at this point, only doing Elite if I am 2 or more levels higher than the quest.

If the primary use of UMD is for healing, then I think I will continue on my current trend of Concentration, Disable, Search and Spot. I have not touched ANY other skills since first level (I think I messed up at first level and put some points where I should not have.) Like I said I am having a great time and everything is working just fine RIGHT NOW. I just want to make sure that I don't hit a wall at some point that will make me regret my decisions and not enjoy the game anymore. For healing we usually have Cleric Hirelings in the party anyway. (I suppose when soloing I could kill a little faster by hiring a fighter/barbarian instead a cleric and going around in undead form?) Does my Palemaster 1 pet skeleton not grow any stronger as I level? He still says DR6 right now even though I just turned 9. I assumed that his strength would go up as I did (I did take augment summoning though, at level 1).

I haven't "leveled" yet at the trainer for 2 reasons: 1) I want to get a +2 INT tome first. I have saved 80K plat at this point, but keep getting outbid on the tomes :( (Keep in mind this is my very first character, so funds have been very tight.) 2) I have no idea which FEAT to take at this level. There are too many good choices! Heighten (I have never used Hypnotism or Web, but I hear it works well for these), Extend (for Auras, Displacement, etc), Quicken (apparently very important later on), Maximize (this one keeps tempting me because of its potential for some impressive raw damage). Then again I'm told that I'll need to have Spell Penetration later on too! Sorry, but this is all pretty overwhelming for a first character.

I'm leaning toward Extend Spell right now as my level 9 feat, but Maximize sure would be a lot of fun for the next few levels :)

I also see a lot of people saying to go Acid/Cold instead Fire/Cold, and yet Fire Wall and Scorching Ray are so powerful right now when boosted (especially against MOST undead). Are there just a disproportionately high number of Fire Immune enemies at higher levels?

Keep the (hopefully kind) comments coming! I need all the help I can get :)

FranOhmsford
10-17-2012, 12:14 PM
No, I did not take any Rogue/Trap skill feats. No, I have never seen a "blown" box before. I have had Disable Device maxed at all times, because I had heard how important it is. Now there were some levels where we were so underleveled that I could not even FIND the device. I suppose that if I had found those traps they would have "blown" (I guess meaning that you can't try any more? Does it also damage me?). Keep in mind that I so almost exclusively on Normal or Hard at this point, only doing Elite if I am 2 or more levels higher than the quest.

If you couldn't find the trap then yes there's a good chance you'd have blown it unless your disable is a lot higher than your search score {+5 tools of course make a big difference to disable BUT do absolutely nothing for Search}.
There have been anecdotal reports of people being damaged by blown up trapboxes - To my mind this seems to be a bug though as it doesn't happen every time.
Basically - The Highest DC known in the game at this moment is 72 - Elite Cabal For One {a lvl 15 quest on Elite - 13 on Normal} and a completely optional chest.
If you can get your disable device to 64 by Lvl 15 +7 for +5 Tools and a minimum roll of 1 on the dice will hit that - With the 5pt differential between failing a trap box and crit failing i.e. Blowing it Up you actually only need a Maximum Disable DC of 60 {poss 59 but I wouldn't take the chance} so long as you have an adequate supply of +5 tools at all times.


If the primary use of UMD is for healing, then I think I will continue on my current trend of Concentration, Disable, Search and Spot. I have not touched ANY other skills since first level (I think I messed up at first level and put some points where I should not have.) Like I said I am having a great time and everything is working just fine RIGHT NOW. I just want to make sure that I don't hit a wall at some point that will make me regret my decisions and not enjoy the game anymore. For healing we usually have Cleric Hirelings in the party anyway. (I suppose when soloing I could kill a little faster by hiring a fighter/barbarian instead a cleric and going around in undead form?) Does my Palemaster 1 pet skeleton not grow any stronger as I level? He still says DR6 right now even though I just turned 9. I assumed that his strength would go up as I did (I did take augment summoning though, at level 1).

Ellis Dee added a Scroll I and others missed for a Pale Master that requires UMD - Harm - You can get by without but this will help a lot.

As for Hirelings - NEVER bother with Melee Hires other than Rogues unless you just want to try them out OR need a STR Lever/Rune doing.
On any Character with a Blue Bar I carry one of the Cleric Hires with DV at all times {No I don't call them if the Party Leader doesn't want me to}.
The Last Cleric to have this on their bar is Ayron Staliya {lvl 17} but tbh the lvl 16 Natasha is a whole lot better.

PM Summons - You need to use your action pts to get the better versions - The base Skelly is basically a throw away toy.
The Blackbone Knight and Blackbone Mage however can come in very handy.
It seems most Pale Masters re-spec around Lvl 18 however and lose all the summons so you don't hear much about the viability of the Frostmarrows - I assume useless in any quest with Fire dmg.

I haven't "leveled" yet at the trainer for 2 reasons: 1) I want to get a +2 INT tome first. I have saved 80K plat at this point, but keep getting outbid on the tomes :( (Keep in mind this is my very first character, so funds have been very tight.) 2) I have no idea which FEAT to take at this level. There are too many good choices! Heighten (I have never used Hypnotism or Web, but I hear it works well for these), Extend (for Auras, Displacement, etc), Quicken (apparently very important later on), Maximize (this one keeps tempting me because of its potential for some impressive raw damage). Then again I'm told that I'll need to have Spell Penetration later on too! Sorry, but this is all pretty overwhelming for a first character.

I'm leaning toward Extend Spell right now as my level 9 feat, but Maximize sure would be a lot of fun for the next few levels :)

You got your two Rogue Levels already?
If so then you'll get a Wizard feat at 12 as well as your standard feat - So I'd take Extend at 9, Maximise and Heighten at 12 and Leave Quicken for 15 Personally.

I also see a lot of people saying to go Acid/Cold instead Fire/Cold, and yet Fire Wall and Scorching Ray are so powerful right now when boosted (especially against MOST undead). Are there just a disproportionately high number of Fire Immune enemies at higher levels?

Fire is required to get your Blackbones - Tbh I think if your not worried about Frostmarrows at end game I'd concentrate on Fire/Electric myself.

Keep the (hopefully kind) comments coming! I need all the help I can get :)

Comments in Plum

EllisDee37
10-17-2012, 12:59 PM
If the primary use of UMD is for healing, then I think I will continue on my current trend of Concentration, Disable, Search and Spot.Should be fine. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


I'm leaning toward Extend Spell right now as my level 9 feat, but Maximize sure would be a lot of fun for the next few levels :)Feats aren't really something you choose as you go; they're more of a "plan entire setup before I start" kind of thing. My feat selection is detailed in my build. (I take extend at 6 as a wizard bonus feat and maximize at 9, along with the first two tiers of Improved Maximizing enhancements.)


I also see a lot of people saying to go Acid/Cold instead Fire/Cold, and yet Fire Wall and Scorching Ray are so powerful right now when boosted (especially against MOST undead). Are there just a disproportionately high number of Fire Immune enemies at higher levels?High mid-levels, yes, but fire is a fine choice to stick with. The two "best" are acid and cold, but I personally go fire and ice for flavor. At endgame I still use scorching ray and frost lance against stuff I can't instakill.

Cogdoc
10-18-2012, 02:10 AM
No, I did not take any Rogue/Trap skill feats. No, I have never seen a "blown" box before. I have had Disable Device maxed at all times, because I had heard how important it is. Now there were some levels where we were so underleveled that I could not even FIND the device. I suppose that if I had found those traps they would have "blown" (I guess meaning that you can't try any more? Does it also damage me?). Keep in mind that I so almost exclusively on Normal or Hard at this point, only doing Elite if I am 2 or more levels higher than the quest.

If the primary use of UMD is for healing, then I think I will continue on my current trend of Concentration, Disable, Search and Spot. I have not touched ANY other skills since first level (I think I messed up at first level and put some points where I should not have.) Like I said I am having a great time and everything is working just fine RIGHT NOW. I just want to make sure that I don't hit a wall at some point that will make me regret my decisions and not enjoy the game anymore. For healing we usually have Cleric Hirelings in the party anyway. (I suppose when soloing I could kill a little faster by hiring a fighter/barbarian instead a cleric and going around in undead form?) Does my Palemaster 1 pet skeleton not grow any stronger as I level? He still says DR6 right now even though I just turned 9. I assumed that his strength would go up as I did (I did take augment summoning though, at level 1).

I haven't "leveled" yet at the trainer for 2 reasons: 1) I want to get a +2 INT tome first. I have saved 80K plat at this point, but keep getting outbid on the tomes :( (Keep in mind this is my very first character, so funds have been very tight.) 2) I have no idea which FEAT to take at this level. There are too many good choices! Heighten (I have never used Hypnotism or Web, but I hear it works well for these), Extend (for Auras, Displacement, etc), Quicken (apparently very important later on), Maximize (this one keeps tempting me because of its potential for some impressive raw damage). Then again I'm told that I'll need to have Spell Penetration later on too! Sorry, but this is all pretty overwhelming for a first character.

I'm leaning toward Extend Spell right now as my level 9 feat, but Maximize sure would be a lot of fun for the next few levels :)

I also see a lot of people saying to go Acid/Cold instead Fire/Cold, and yet Fire Wall and Scorching Ray are so powerful right now when boosted (especially against MOST undead). Are there just a disproportionately high number of Fire Immune enemies at higher levels?

Keep the (hopefully kind) comments coming! I need all the help I can get :)

Hello again!

First let me point it out, as I think that all these advices are really getting to be confusing for you, that the fact that you came here onto the forums to ask about your build has already put you into the clever player category, so in case you take none of these advices on your current character, it will still be an enjoyable experience for you!

You can of course build in some of these advices, and use your own experience even on your next character or your next life after you TR. Dont think about the choices what can screw up your character for now, anything you do is good, you dont absolutely have to build the perfect character in DDO to be able to do quests and have fun.

Now onto the feats. As someone pointed out extend is useful for your auras, I didnt think of that, very good point, so the value of extend has risen in your build. I would take either heighten, maximize or extend before I do anything about spell penetration. Even those spells what require spell penetration checks often require DC as well, what means that you do need to pass the mobs saves (with heighten!) not only his spell resistance.

Fire wall and scorching ray stay to be powerful spells in specific situations. At higher levels, quests tend to be more varied regarding the specific resistances and/or immunities the monsters have. Thus you cannot really rely on one school of spells to see you through all the challenges, there will be fire immune mobs yes, but so there will be ice, lightning and acid immune ones too. Regardless of what you choose for elemental specialization keep in mind, that raw elemental dps is not what wizards shine in at later levels. It is crowd control and insta death spells.

Cogdoc

Rawrargh
10-18-2012, 03:39 AM
If you're playing on argo I might have a +2 int tome somewhere so you can get on your with life :P
If not, then you might want to check the marketplace forum of your server. You can probably find a nice guy willing to trade a tome for some essences

stefferweffer
10-18-2012, 07:55 AM
If you're playing on argo I might have a +2 int tome somewhere so you can get on your with life :P
If not, then you might want to check the marketplace forum of your server. You can probably find a nice guy willing to trade a tome for some essences

Thank you. I am on Thelanis (where the person who introduced me to the game is). I did finally win an auction for one. I have 20K left :) I did not know that players wanted various Essences so badly. I have a ton of them in my bags just sitting there!

I ended up taking Maximize at this point. Might be dumb, but at this point I just want to have fun, and doing that kind of damage right now is just plain fun :) It was either Maximize or Extend (for Auras), but I'm still using a Cleric Hireling now anyway. Maximizing the Aura though (for a total of +260 negative spell power) would deal some respectable damage, especially if it crits (from my quarterstaff.)

Being level 9 now, I was also able to find a Disable Device + 10 item in the AH, which replaced my + 5 I had been using. Got my 2nd Rogue level, a lot of skill points, and I have Evasion + Insightful Reflexes + 30 Intelligence (with gear), so the Reflex saves are fantastic right now, and my spell DCs are good (although I rarely cast anything with a save opportunity anyway). I'm sniping everything with Scorching Ray most of the time, killing many enemies in one shot. I know it won't last, but it is fun while it works :)

So now it's Wizard the rest of the way to 20, and maybe beyond. I wish that there were more Palemaster "milestones" besides just 6, 12 and 18. Waiting another 5 levels for Wraith form is going to be annoying :) Something to shoot for though!

unbongwah
10-18-2012, 08:48 AM
I did not know that players wanted various Essences so badly. I have a ton of them in my bags just sitting there!
There are plenty of vets sitting on tons of plat willing to pay seemingly exorbitant prices for rare (or not so rare) ingredients in crafting recipes. So as you've probably realized by now, a good way to make money is selling off the most sought-after collectibles and ingredients. Just be careful not to sell off anything you need for crafting... :)

So now it's Wizard the rest of the way to 20, and maybe beyond.
Epic levels are classless; everyone gets the same benefits from lvls 21-25, so no one gets more than 20 lvls in their chosen class. Instead you use Epic Destinies (if you bought them) to really power up your epic character.

EllisDee37
10-18-2012, 02:44 PM
Maximizing the Aura though (for a total of +260 negative spell power) would deal some respectable damage, especially if it crits (from my quarterstaff.)Sadly, aura cannot be maximized.

stefferweffer
10-18-2012, 03:12 PM
Grrr. That is frustrating. Did they do that because someone thought it would be "overpowered" somehow?

foxom1
10-18-2012, 09:11 PM
You guys keep saying that he's a clever player because he comes on the boards asking for help for his build. while that is true, if he takes any of this advice i'm reading here he's not. I mean no offense to the original poster but the rest of this is a bunch of horse****. UMD??? worthless. get some fom cookies or boots. Get a res clickie if u care about puggers that much. Usually if they died it just means they're going to again so don't worry about them. forget about concentation get quicken and put points into balance or jump instead. Heighten at lvl 6? u don't need cc at lvl 6 because nothing has any hp yet, empower/maximize your fireball coupled with a combustion/fire lore weapon and go to town. Spell pen is vital if you are going for a good wizard but tossing in 2 rogue is just nuts. Concentrate on getting your timing down and avoid most traps or get your hp high enough to survive them. you will be gimping your caster badly by splashing 2 of anyting. (dc's, spell pen, sp, amount of spells to mem) . Unless you're looking to be ok at a few things but not great at anything I'd ditch the 2 rogue. Just focus on getting your hp high and your dc's even higher. As for extend that's a 2 sided coin, most of it is for buffing others so you don't really need it, although extended displace is pretty sweet. but most of your buffs aren't going to be using metamagic feats so they'll be cheap enough to cast often. mainly I'd just get through this life as quick as possible and don't worry about spell pen until next wiz life( go elf if you're still having trouble with it). But again the most important thing you can do is disregard everything above this post besides your own.

stefferweffer
10-18-2012, 10:16 PM
You guys keep saying that he's a clever player because he comes on the boards asking for help for his build. while that is true, if he takes any of this advice i'm reading here he's not. I mean no offense to the original poster but the rest of this is a bunch of horse****. UMD??? worthless. get some fom cookies or boots. Get a res clickie if u care about puggers that much. Usually if they died it just means they're going to again so don't worry about them. forget about concentation get quicken and put points into balance or jump instead. Heighten at lvl 6? u don't need cc at lvl 6 because nothing has any hp yet, empower/maximize your fireball coupled with a combustion/fire lore weapon and go to town. Spell pen is vital if you are going for a good wizard but tossing in 2 rogue is just nuts. Concentrate on getting your timing down and avoid most traps or get your hp high enough to survive them. you will be gimping your caster badly by splashing 2 of anyting. (dc's, spell pen, sp, amount of spells to mem) . Unless you're looking to be ok at a few things but not great at anything I'd ditch the 2 rogue. Just focus on getting your hp high and your dc's even higher. As for extend that's a 2 sided coin, most of it is for buffing others so you don't really need it, although extended displace is pretty sweet. but most of your buffs aren't going to be using metamagic feats so they'll be cheap enough to cast often. mainly I'd just get through this life as quick as possible and don't worry about spell pen until next wiz life( go elf if you're still having trouble with it). But again the most important thing you can do is disregard everything above this post besides your own.

Umm, I know I'm new, but much of this just doesn't seem right to me. 2 Rogue is very popular with Wizards, primarily because so many skills run off of Int, and Insightful Reflexes + Evasion allowing me to pretty much ignore Dex. Keep in mind that as a new player I have no idea where the traps are, and some are unavoidable. Just get lots of hit points and run right through the traps? You think this works on Elite if you fail your save? I have saved the lives of my friends so many times already by being able to turn off these traps on Hard and Elite. Gwylan's stand is just one such example. All I see that I get by going pure Wiz is a couple more spell slots, another Wizard feat, and something at level 20 I think. I am loving the versatility that throwing Rogue in gives me, and it makes me much more attractive to a group. I agree with you on Use Magic Device. I do not personally need it and I will thus skip it on this life. I do thank you for responding, but I'm afraid I will need to see evidence before I believe that you are correct on everything else and everyone else is wrong.

wax_on_wax_off
10-18-2012, 11:07 PM
Umm, I know I'm new, but much of this just doesn't seem right to me. 2 Rogue is very popular with Wizards, primarily because so many skills run off of Int, and Insightful Reflexes + Evasion allowing me to pretty much ignore Dex. Keep in mind that as a new player I have no idea where the traps are, and some are unavoidable. Just get lots of hit points and run right through the traps? You think this works on Elite if you fail your save? I have saved the lives of my friends so many times already by being able to turn off these traps on Hard and Elite. Gwylan's stand is just one such example. All I see that I get by going pure Wiz is a couple more spell slots, another Wizard feat, and something at level 20 I think. I am loving the versatility that throwing Rogue in gives me, and it makes me much more attractive to a group. I agree with you on Use Magic Device. I do not personally need it and I will thus skip it on this life. I do thank you for responding, but I'm afraid I will need to see evidence before I believe that you are correct on everything else and everyone else is wrong.

I definitely don't agree with splashing a first life wizard. It's quite possible for a pure first life elven wizard to contribute in EE (epic elite) with SR based spells but as soon as you splash or go a different race that pretty much goes out the window. Even when not doing EE as, let's face it, you've got to be in a certain mood, it's still much better to be pure and elf as you can swap into a secondary destiny rather than staying in your quickly capped primary destiny and while in that "off" destiny still bypass SR on EH (epic hard).

Insightful Reflexes+jump+haste+resist energy+protection from elements+lots of HP is absolutely enough for 99% of traps in the game, sure, it takes some twitch skills but it's absolutely worth it for the extra 2 spell penetration, +1 DC on spells from capstone and -1 SP used for each metamagic. Once you hit level 18+ you can access handy items like Cannith Boots of Propulsion which give a leap type effect which can zoom you through the nastiest traps in the game without being touched (though this item comes from an adventure pack).

Trap skills are overrated and abundant. Artificers, Rogues, splashed Rangers, splashed Bards and more will often be able to do traps that you fly through to get you more XP while you go and finish the quest, these types of jobs are for the "melees" as when you get the hang of firewall and other spells and amp it up appropriately you don't really need them for anything else.

Evasion is replaceable. Overwhelmingly evasion won't save your life because it isn't the successful saves that you die from but rather the unsuccessful ones (which evasion doesn't help against). Sure, 2 rogues gives slightly higher reflex save but it doesn't help with failed saves otherwise and I'd much prefer to invest in appropriate gear to not fail the save rather than hoping that I will (superior stability, good luck, greater heroism etc).

UMD is an absolute must have. With that one skill you can save a raid or quest with a raise or access an item that would otherwise be inaccessible due to race or alignment restrictions. With the most important caster items being loot gen it's crucial to be able to use one, even if it's "Race required: Halfling", particularly as a new player the opportunity to get one without a restriction is significantly lessened due to cost barriers.

Concentration is absolutely crucial. Wasting SP on quicken in anything but the most challenging quests is the sign of a poor player and even still a wizard should have a collection of scrolls to use in different situations which rely on a concentration check regardless. If it only happens once in your entire DDO career that concentration lets you get off a Prismatic Ray scroll in an EE LoB to take down the last pillar for a completion ... well, it's worth it.

Other skills are important to consider. Move Silently, 1 rank in Tumble and Balance are important skills for a wizard to tackle a variety of situations. It's no fun at all being knocked over and you'll rarely resist trip attempts so it's important to have enough balance to get up quickly. 1 Tumble unlocks the tumble skill letting you do commando roles which are handy. Move Silently is one of my favourite skills, combine it with the invisibility spell and DDO turns into an entirely different game being able to stealth through many quests and even get bonus XP in for stealth optionals in some (with all drow having see invisibility it's worthwhile to add Hide skill now too).

EllisDee37
10-19-2012, 08:18 AM
Understand that waxy is overly invested in wizards being pure. Rogue splash is just fine, don't worry about the purists. The actual difference is -2 int and -2 spell pen by missing the capstone and two levels of wizard. Back before the expansion pack, this was a pretty tough hit to absorb. Now with destinies, though, you can get a potential +8 int and +13 spell pen from destinies alone, making the -2/-2 not so important.

Waxy, let me put it this way: Does your wizard have +8 int and +13 spell pen from destinies? If not, GIMP!!!!! hehheh. Seriously, though, unless you have the full +8/+13, a splashed build can catch up to you in both int and spell pen, rendering the downside of the splash moot.

The guy who said not to take concentration threw all of his credibility out the window with that one statement.

EDIT: The target spell pen for a first life wizard is 38, which is easily hit on a splash build. The eventual target is 54, but you will probably want a few past lives to help reach it regardless if you splash or not.

foxom1
10-19-2012, 02:17 PM
The guy who said not to take concentration threw all of his credibility out the window with that one statement.

.

all u have to do is quicken your heals, finger, wail, pk, and circle of death. You shouldn't need to be casting anything else while getting hit so concentration is next to worthless. as an int based toon you should have plenty of skill points though so go ahead and toss them into concentration if you want it will help with some scrolls.