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TreknaQudane
10-10-2012, 05:31 PM
This is a copy of the Thief-Acrobat enhancements on Llama... they are pretty rough in some spots and obviously not finalized.



Granted/Bottom Row:

Acrobat (0 AP, 1 Rog)
You can also use your DEX modifier to hit with Quarterstaves
Stick Fighting (5 AP, 3 Rog)
You can now use your DEX modifier for damage with Quarterstaves
Tumbler (10 AP, 6 Rogue)
You can pass through enemies when you tumble
Kip Up (20 AP, 12 Rogue)
You are immune to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces
Carthweel Charge (30 AP,18 Rogue)
After tumbling, you gain a +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds
Followthrough (41 AP, 20 Rogue)
You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.

Tier 1:

Staff Training 1
+1 to hit and damage with Quarterstaves
Acrobatic (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, +5/10/15% attack speed with quarterstaves.
Charming (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle, and Intimidate
Sly Flourish (3 Ranks)
Melee Attack: Deals +.5/1/1.5[W] damage with +1/2/3 Critical Threat Range, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gainsts -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, andWill saves for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times)
Faster Sneaking (3 Ranks)
+20/35/50% Movement speed while sneaking.

Tier 2:

Staff Training 2 (Requires: Staff Training 1)
+1 to hit and +2 damage with Quarterstaves
Trip Focus(3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to the save DC of Trip Attacks
Subtlety (3 Ranks)
-20/30/40% threat generation with melee attacks. Does notstack with other subtlety enhancements.
Quick Strike (3 Ranks)
Melee Quarterstaff Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. You gain a 5/15/25% Morale Bonus to Double Strike for 10 seconds.
Haste Boost (3 Ranks)

Tier 3:

Staff Training 3(Requires: Staff Training 2)
+1 to hit and +2 damage with Quarterstaves
Improved Glancing Blows (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll? (Two Handed Fighting maybe?))
Glancing blows produced by your two-handed attacks get an additional 2/4/6% chance of producing secondary weapon effects.
Shadow Dodge (3 Ranks)
Toggle: +1/2/3% Dodge, +1/2/3 DEX, -10/20/30% Fort
Sweeping Strike (3 Ranks) (Requires: Quick Strike)
Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them. (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier negates)
Stat Enhancement: STR or DEX

Tier 4:

Staff Training 4 (Requires: Staff Training 3)
+1 to hit and +2 damage with Quarterstaves
Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll)
Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and reduces damage to 40/30/20% when successful.
No Mercy (3 Ranks)
You deal 10/20/30% additional damage to helpless opponents.
Staff Lunge (3 Ranks)
Melee Quarterstaff Attack: Deals +2/3/4[W] damage as you dive through enemies in a line.
Stat Enhancement: STR or DEX

Tier 5:

Staff Specialization
+1 Critical Threat Multiplier with Quarterstaves
Vault (Requires: No Mercy Rank 1)
Quarterstaff Action: Leap through the air.

Diyon
10-10-2012, 10:20 PM
Awesomeness!

wax_on_wax_off
10-10-2012, 11:16 PM
Hmm, that bottom row looks quite nice for a DPS focused, eSoS wielding barbarian. Double hits sound fun, I wonder how that would work in regards to glancing blows and cleaves.

Diyon
10-10-2012, 11:22 PM
Hmm, that bottom row looks quite nice for a DPS focused, eSoS wielding barbarian. Double hits sound fun, I wonder how that would work in regards to glancing blows and cleaves.

Question is does it work on a single target? Or more of, you get to hit two targets per swing, will that equate to the same thing as hitting twice per swing?

wax_on_wax_off
10-11-2012, 01:33 AM
Question is does it work on a single target? Or more of, you get to hit two targets per swing, will that equate to the same thing as hitting twice per swing?

Sounds like it would require a minimum of two targets but still to be targeting 2 foes with cleaves (so double cleaves), and then getting glancing blows back and forth would work well, should make trash destruction quite fun.

TreknaQudane
10-11-2012, 01:34 AM
It also says 'Basic Attacks' it may only work on a standard swing.. no cleave, trip, sunder, flourish etc.

wax_on_wax_off
10-11-2012, 01:41 AM
It also says 'Basic Attacks' it may only work on a standard swing.. no cleave, trip, sunder, flourish etc.

Good catch, should still be good for glancing blows though.

artistx
10-11-2012, 02:55 AM
Going pure dex with any staffs.... that's a dream come true.. I may hafta TR my h-orc thiefacrobat into a halfling... seeing as how halflings racial class will be a Assassin... alot of synergy... but I will miss adding the dex modifier to sneak attacks...

sephiroth1084
10-11-2012, 02:55 AM
I'd be more impressed with the minor Trip focus here if we could use Dex to calculate our Trip DCs. The Trip Focus line looks aimed at Str-based Acrobats and to boost Sweeping Strike. I'd really like to be able to use the better of Str or Dex normally on Trip attempts. Str still gets Sunder and Stun for non-monks, who can essentially perform those maneuvers with Wis instead. Variety is good.

Ganak
10-11-2012, 06:28 AM
Very cool, but I have a questions.

Is Scorpion Wraith PrC still on the table for rogues/drow? Thx!

FranOhmsford
10-11-2012, 06:32 AM
Very cool, but I have a questions.

Is Scorpion Wraith PrC still on the table for rogues/drow? Thx!

Pretty certain Drow are getting Tempest as their Racial Prestige.

ddo.rsmo.pt
10-11-2012, 06:36 AM
I'm impressed with the number of attacks that involve movement, tripping, tumbling, sweeping... this is what I was craving on my HOrcrobat. If something Turbine did came towards my expectations and fun goals, this is it! Doing decent DPS, and some crowd control to boot!

Melt-emi
10-11-2012, 06:40 AM
Acrobatic (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, +5/10/15% attack speed with quarterstaves.

Making this a Tier1 enhancement is a bit dumb, imo...

karl_k0ch
10-11-2012, 09:38 AM
I see some very viable enhancements for non-Acrobat Rogues at tier 2, but unfortunately, the tier 1 abilities required to spend points in it are not so attractive (I'm assuming it's 5 APs to unlock tier2). I don't like this that much, and it resembles to the uninteresting pre-reqs of the old enhancement system. At least, there is some flexibility, and it's nice to see generalist abilities not too far up in the tree.

Regarding the Autogrants, it's interesting to see that TA is really rewarding a tumbling play style.

Is there any indication how the TAs Staff Training stacks with a Henshin Mystic's Staff Training?

Diyon
10-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Regarding the Autogrants, it's interesting to see that TA is really rewarding a tumbling play style.

I'd been asking for this for awhile. It fits perfectly thematically, the PrE is the only one with significant bonuses to the skill, and the skill has long needed some legitimate reasons for higher investments.

Most importantly, it gives the acrobats something unique of their own in style. They'll be tumbling through and around enemies during combat to gain DPS/defense.

I still think there should be an ability that makes use of the actual tumble modifier number for something.

Eladrin
10-11-2012, 10:20 AM
Is there any indication how the TAs Staff Training stacks with a Henshin Mystic's Staff Training?
We haven't come to a final decision. Our current builds have a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you would have to pick if you want Thief-Acrobat Acrobatic or Ninja Acrobatic. (These often have different "secondary riders" attached to them.)

Acrobatic: (Acrobat) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +(5/10/15)% attack speed with quarterstaves.
Acrobatic: (Ninja) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. (+1/+2/+3)% Dodge.

Diyon
10-11-2012, 11:02 AM
We haven't come to a final decision. Our current builds have a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you would have to pick if you want Thief-Acrobat Acrobatic or Ninja Acrobatic. (These often have different "secondary riders" attached to them.)

Acrobatic: (Acrobat) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +(5/10/15)% attack speed with quarterstaves.
Acrobatic: (Ninja) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. (+1/+2/+3)% Dodge.

At least the acrobat enhancements won't be lying about the attack speed bonuses anymore (in particular, acrobat two reads that you should get another 10%, so 20% total, but you only actually get 15% total).

Provided all the other stuff coming with this, I'm okay with being stopped at 15%. Just make sure it still stacks properly and is the right amount lol.

What I'm really interested in is what I can do with human/half-elf racial PrE lines. Also just noticed how you can't get the top autogrant of two lines. While that lines up with what we have now for the most part, it doesn't line up with current racial PrE potential where we can currently max out two in that way.

sephiroth1084
10-11-2012, 11:35 AM
What I'm really interested in is what I can do with human/half-elf racial PrE lines. Also just noticed how you can't get the top autogrant of two lines. While that lines up with what we have now for the most part, it doesn't line up with current racial PrE potential where we can currently max out two in that way.
That's an issue that needs addressing.

Maybe the racial lines can cap out at a lower value, with fewer enhancement lines being offered in their trees?

FacepalmWTF
10-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Couple of concerns:

1. Dex to hit and damage sounds great at first glance, but str gives 1.5x modifier to damage for thf no?

2. Wheres the + to quarterstaff attack speed? Defining feature of acrobats right now imo.

oradafu
10-11-2012, 11:49 AM
Improved Glancing Blows (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll? (Two Handed Fighting maybe?))
Glancing blows produced by your two-handed attacks get an additional 2/4/6% chance of producing secondary weapon effects.

I have to agree that Defensive Roll seems like an odd requirement.


Hmm, that bottom row looks quite nice for a DPS focused, eSoS wielding barbarian. Double hits sound fun, I wonder how that would work in regards to glancing blows and cleaves.


It also says 'Basic Attacks' it may only work on a standard swing.. no cleave, trip, sunder, flourish etc.

As Trekna says, it looks like it Basic Attacks so Cleave is left out. While talking about Cleave, Quarterstaves are still the only THW that doesn't give Glancing Blow damage when Cleaving. I was really hoping this would be fix by the time these enhancements hit live.

Diyon
10-11-2012, 11:50 AM
That's an issue that needs addressing.

Maybe the racial lines can cap out at a lower value, with fewer enhancement lines being offered in their trees?

Ya, I'd like to potentially also get full acrobat on a splash, I'll give up half orc and go human/half-elf for that.


Couple of concerns:

1. Dex to hit and damage sounds great at first glance, but str gives 1.5x modifier to damage for thf no?

2. Wheres the + to quarterstaff attack speed? Defining feature of acrobats right now imo.

1. A concern, but much better than before. Eladrin, any chance that dex mod for damage will work just like STR does for staffs? (1.5x mod)

2. Under the tier one acrobatic.

oradafu
10-11-2012, 11:52 AM
2. Wheres the + to quarterstaff attack speed? Defining feature of acrobats right now imo.

Tier one:




Acrobatic (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, +5/10/15% attack speed with quarterstaves.

Linex
10-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Want all this!!

Eladrin
10-11-2012, 12:25 PM
1. A concern, but much better than before. Eladrin, any chance that dex mod for damage will work just like STR does for staffs? (1.5x mod)
It should.


I have to agree that Defensive Roll seems like an odd requirement.
Yeah, that's wrong. Early accidental sneak preview.

karl_k0ch
10-11-2012, 12:39 PM
It should.

How will this design decision influence the behavior of Dex-as-Damage QStaffs, such as Breeze and Nat Gann? (Iirc, they only use 1x Dexmod.)

ddo.rsmo.pt
10-11-2012, 01:28 PM
How can we check these enhancements on Lamma? Do we have to roll a new toon?

Eilyen
10-11-2012, 03:37 PM
How can we check these enhancements on Lamma? Do we have to roll a new toon?

Assign something to the "open enhancment panel" or whatever it was in the keybindings.

ddo.rsmo.pt
10-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Assign something to the "open enhancment panel" or whatever it was in the keybindings.

That's odd, I bound it to "K" and "Ctrl+K" and still can't get it to work...

Dunklerlindwurm
10-11-2012, 04:53 PM
Same here if i assign a key to it on life i can see the empty new enhancement pannel.

If i do the same on Lamannia nothing happens at all.

So im wondering too how you guys can see them? i guess there is more to it then just assigning a key?

Diyon
10-11-2012, 06:46 PM
It should.

So happy to hear this! This was one of the few finally reservations I had about every making a dex based acrobat. I can deal with the fewer sources of stacking dex buffs, that's a tradeoff I'll take.

Aashrym
10-12-2012, 01:45 AM
If i do the same on Lamannia nothing happens at all.

So im wondering too how you guys can see them? i guess there is more to it then just assigning a key?

I would guess it was somehow disabled after so much monk, rogue, and bard info slipped out.

Silverleafeon
10-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Woot!

ddo.rsmo.pt
10-12-2012, 09:38 AM
I would guess it was somehow disabled after so much monk, rogue, and bard info slipped out.

If it slipped then why are Dev's talking about it, discussing it with the playerbase (as they should IMO)? And why remove now, that people saw them?

Shareplzkkthnxbye!

Scraap
10-12-2012, 11:32 AM
We haven't come to a final decision. Our current builds have a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you would have to pick if you want Thief-Acrobat Acrobatic or Ninja Acrobatic. (These often have different "secondary riders" attached to them.)

Acrobatic: (Acrobat) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +(5/10/15)% attack speed with quarterstaves.
Acrobatic: (Ninja) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. (+1/+2/+3)% Dodge.

Same target goal, different side effects. Run with this. :D

Cyr
10-12-2012, 12:22 PM
I am a little concerned that the autogrants for this one are so much worse then those for assassin. The purchasable are pretty good for flavor QS with some other interesting stuff for a wider variety of builds.

Overall this one I really see as not very interesting unless you want the flavor build. Heck, I do not even see 5 points I would want to use on the first tier if I was not interested in QS on my rogue.

So early version review: Buff this one for autogrants with stuff that non-staff users would value also and same goes for purchasables.

Aashrym
10-12-2012, 01:15 PM
If it slipped then why are Dev's talking about it, discussing it with the playerbase (as they should IMO)? And why remove now, that people saw them?

Shareplzkkthnxbye!

I don't see an issue with discussing it once it's leaked out. The conspiracy theorist in me might think it could have been intentional. Intentional leakage has been part of information management for some time. ;)

As far as removing it, I'm positive there would have been reasons for it.


So early version review: Buff this one for autogrants with stuff that non-staff users would value also and same goes for purchasables.

I would agree. +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds after tumbling doesn't seem like much of a benefit, for example.

Scraap
10-12-2012, 01:30 PM
I would agree. +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds after tumbling doesn't seem like much of a benefit, for example.

Largely agreed... What's the technical feasibility of a tumble-to-target active attack? It'd make a whole lot more sense to build off of something along those lines, if the basic system had a bit more utility.

Jay203
10-12-2012, 01:35 PM
those that are oogling at Follow through
don't forget it's only active after you tumble

Cyr
10-12-2012, 01:35 PM
I would agree. +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds after tumbling doesn't seem like much of a benefit, for example.

I would say it is a trap more then a benefit. Spend X points to get this ability and then think it must be really good because you spent X points to get it so you do something completely sub-optimal (tumbling around in combat) to take advantage of it.

Coldin
10-12-2012, 01:35 PM
Largely agreed... What's the technical feasibility of a tumble-to-target active attack? It'd make a whole lot more sense to build off of something along those lines, if the basic system had a bit more utility.

I do have to say. One thing GW2 got right was tumbling and dodging. It's right on one key press, so you can instantly tumble without sacrificing momentum. It also makes you evade all the attacks during the animation, which is pretty nice.

sephiroth1084
10-12-2012, 02:07 PM
I'd really like to see Tumble get reworked to be, you know, useful, but I don't see how that can happen so long as there is such a tremendous emphasis on DPS in this game, not to much such overpowered healing.

For starters, the animation could stand to be faster, and should have less of a delay both before and after, so that you aren't losing so many actions. Additionally, I think it would be cool if you gained a special stacking Dodge bonus equal to your total modifier while tumbling. That way, at least tumbling would actually help you avoid enemy attacks, whereas right now, it helps with some, if they are well-telegraphed and you can tumble far enough/they don't have much reach, but it is rarely helpful.

oradafu
10-12-2012, 04:37 PM
I know what we are seeing is a pretty early rough version of the Acrobat tree, so I'm not too critical about we are seeing right now. Yes, I agree that it doesn't look as fleshed out as the Assassin tree.

I'm glad to see the Acrobats get several things that were suggested by players. I'm also glad to see things that popped up in the Epic Destinies that were obvious Acrobat stuff added to the tree. such as the Tumble through enemies.

One thing that I'm a bit disappointed in not seeing so far is a Knockdown-type Charge, although that could be the loosely defined Vault in Tier 5. What do I mean by a Knockdown-type Charge? Well, pretty much a melee version of Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack. Just to refresh people's memories about what the Flyby Attack consists of:


Flyby Attack: Active Ability: (Cooldown 1min) Executes an abundant step which passes through enemies and deals 2d6 [fire/cold/acid/electric] damage per character level to any enemy struck during the attack. Each enemy is also knocked down (reflex save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier for half damage; STR/DEX save DC 20 + 1/2 character level + INT/CHA modifier negates knockdown).

So I would expect something similar. Some changes would be:
* the damage wouldn't be elemental, of course, just plan base damage
* instead of INT/CHA modifiers, make them either STR/DEX or STR/DEX/INT

MalarKan
10-16-2012, 11:25 AM
i love it! most of it makes me feel like my suggestions were taken into consideration :D (or maybe i just happen to think what most ppl thought Acrobat III should have)

Anyways, most of it looks great, aiming towards a generalist+survivavility+utility rogue and not just to the insane dps assasin rogue.

Altho i just feel like the actual tumble skill should add up to AC as a dodge bonus and it should be starting since low levels adding up each tier, something like a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%/+25% of your Total tumble score added to the base dodge bonus. Saying it because, well, tier 1 and 2 seems like they r adding the so much desired finessable staff ability, but i still feel like its missing something.

MY humble 2 cents... ^^

keep up the good work!

Obbu
10-17-2012, 06:23 PM
We haven't come to a final decision. Our current builds have a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you would have to pick if you want Thief-Acrobat Acrobatic or Ninja Acrobatic. (These often have different "secondary riders" attached to them.)

Acrobatic: (Acrobat) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. +(5/10/15)% attack speed with quarterstaves.
Acrobatic: (Ninja) (+1/+2/+3) Balance, Jump, and Tumble. (+1/+2/+3)% Dodge.

I'd also be curious to know if certain shared abilities like:

Henshin: Quick Strike
Acrobat: Quick Strike

have any synergy - or reason to want to take both.

I.e. are they entirely redundant, or is there plans to implement some form of cooldown reduction, or minor benefit to spending AP on both instances of the same enhancement?

Obviously mitigated by the fact that its all subject to change anyway :)

SealedInSong
10-18-2012, 04:21 AM
Legendary Victory points to you, devs.

First, I'd like to say that I'm impressed by how active and fun and effective the new acrobat will be. I think a lot of us have been waiting for exactly this for quite some time and it's really wonderful to see you guys bring it to fruition. I especially commend you guys for making acrobats have a lot of incentive to stay pure and enough front-loaded goodies to consider multiclassing.

Second, the mere mention of cleric domains means I will very, very willingly spend another $100 or more on Turbine points just to keep spoiling my favorite character--my cleric.

A few notes:

1]
I'd be more impressed with the minor Trip focus here if we could use Dex to calculate our Trip DCs. The Trip Focus line looks aimed at Str-based Acrobats and to boost Sweeping Strike. I'd really like to be able to use the better of Str or Dex normally on Trip attempts. Str still gets Sunder and Stun for non-monks, who can essentially perform those maneuvers with Wis instead. Variety is good.

I agree with Sephiroth: give an extra, active tactical bonus to going dex, as strength still gets a wide benefit across different weapon types and two tactical feats using it for its DC.

If Sweeping Strike DC = Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + DEX Modifier also benefits from vertigo items, then I'd revise my opinion and say that things are fine as they are.

2]

Acrobatic (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, +5/10/15% attack speed with quarterstaves.


Making this a Tier1 enhancement is a bit dumb, imo...

As a Tier1 enhancement, this seems both too front-loaded and too weak. Most of us were really hoping to get a third tier of staff alacrity as a reward for striving towards more pure acrobatics, and having the full three tiers of the enhancement available so early and with no (actual, if not listed, since the T2 acrobat alacrity description is false) improvement of its current implementation.

In other words, acrobats enjoy being speed freaks, and it'd be great if they could at least get something like:
Acrobatic (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Balance, Jump, and Tumble, +7/14/21% attack speed with quarterstaves at rogue level x/2x/3x, respectively.

3] 1.5x dex mod is balanced. Good.

4] @Cyr: the prestige could use some room for accommodating other weapons, but in my mind, I'd prefer to see something a little more radical and awesome, like an enhancement that would allow the acrobat to use quarterstaves as true doubleweapons, i.e. having TWF feats affect their staff fighting instead (forsaking glancing blows and THF-staff combat) and allowing their sneak attack dice to take full advantage of TWF, which is mathematically superior to THF when sneak attack is accounted for.

5]

As Trekna says, it looks like it Basic Attacks so Cleave is left out. While talking about Cleave, Quarterstaves are still the only THW that doesn't give Glancing Blow damage when Cleaving. I was really hoping this would be fix by the time these enhancements hit live.

Fix this and I'd happily spend even more money on my second-favorite character, my acrobat :)

6]

One thing that I'm a bit disappointed in not seeing so far is a Knockdown-type Charge, although that could be the loosely defined Vault in Tier 5. What do I mean by a Knockdown-type Charge? Well, pretty much a melee version of Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack. Just to refresh people's memories about what the Flyby Attack consists of (...snip)

I'm interpreting T4 "Staff Lunge" as equivalent to Flyby attack with physical damage and T5 "Vault" an abundant step ability identical to air savant Wind Dance (no featherfall). If even one of those is the case, I may have just shed a single pearlescent tear of happiness. Preferably both.

7] Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks)
Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and reduces damage to 40/30/20% when successful.

Though I like the flavor of this enhancement, any player worth their salt won't allow themselves to sit at suboptimal (<90%) health for very long. This extrapolates to any class at any time, as most "improves with low health" effects are avoided or ignored by players in my experience (Alchemist Set, Medusa's Fury, etc.).

Per some other peoples' comments in this thread, I would also like to see a tangible benefit to getting high tumble ranks in addition to their current ones. Consider changing Improved Defensive Roll to require the special feat Defensive Roll but adding something tied to one's Tumble skill, e.g.

Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (required: defensive roll)
Gain +1 AC and -1 second cooldown to [improved] uncanny dodge per 7/6/5 ranks of Tumble.

Example implementation: PlayerX has 39 ranks in Tumble when fully self-buffed. With Rank2 Improved Defensive Roll, they gain 6 AC (rounded down) and a 174 second cooldown for their uncanny dodge. Even with all the best that tumble has to offer at rank 39 (forward tumble, etc.), PlayerX has good reason to seek out party buffs or an extra rank in Improved Defensive Roll to get some extra AC and more frequent dodge usage.

ThreeEyedBob
10-18-2012, 06:03 AM
I commented on the assassin thread before catching this one but anyway, I see a lot of potential for doing a 2 rogue splash with a 18 cleric half-orc. Seems much better than doing 2 monk levels at least.

EDIT:
And after looking at the Henshin Mystic post I am no longer sure...lol...what to do what to do..humh...

Eladrin
10-18-2012, 09:14 AM
I'd also be curious to know if certain shared abilities like:

Henshin: Quick Strike
Acrobat: Quick Strike

have any synergy - or reason to want to take both.

I.e. are they entirely redundant, or is there plans to implement some form of cooldown reduction, or minor benefit to spending AP on both instances of the same enhancement?

Obviously mitigated by the fact that its all subject to change anyway :)
Currently we're working with a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you wouldn't be able to take Quick Strike in both trees. (It would be redundant, since they're currently identical in every way, including cooldown timer.)

jejeba86
10-18-2012, 11:40 AM
Currently we're working with a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you wouldn't be able to take Quick Strike in both trees. (It would be redundant, since they're currently identical in every way, including cooldown timer.)

But that's what he's asking, if you like the option of allowing selection of two identical enhancements, making this give additional benefit, instead of just ignoring one of them.
I find this idea very nice.

MrkGrismer
10-18-2012, 01:02 PM
Currently we're working with a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you wouldn't be able to take Quick Strike in both trees. (It would be redundant, since they're currently identical in every way, including cooldown timer.)

It would be nice if they were actually considered the identical enhancement, such that if you took it in one tree it was considered 'taken' in all trees. Which would mean you qualify for any other enhancements that use it as a pre-requisite. It would also, at least in theory, mean that any changes to the enhancment would only have to be made once.

whittey
10-18-2012, 02:01 PM
My largest concern with what I see so far in the enhancement is the number of clickies. Trip, Sunder, sly flourish, quick strike, sweeping strike and staff lunge on top of cleave, great cleave and possibly stunning blow. 9 combat clickies is a bit much.

With No Mercy it's logical to keep a strength build (especially as a 2 handed dex weapon doesn't get 1.5 dex modifier) and take stunning blow for the 80% extra damage as well as keeping regular trip and sunder usable. A horcrobat will have the same str as a halfer will dex, but will do better with the 1.5 str modifier and still has the racial +4 damage to 2hf.

BananaHat
10-18-2012, 02:33 PM
My largest concern with what I see so far in the enhancement is the number of clickies. Trip, Sunder, sly flourish, quick strike, sweeping strike and staff lunge on top of cleave, great cleave and possibly stunning blow. 9 combat clickies is a bit much.

With No Mercy it's logical to keep a strength build (especially as a 2 handed dex weapon doesn't get 1.5 dex modifier) and take stunning blow for the 80% extra damage as well as keeping regular trip and sunder usable. A horcrobat will have the same str as a halfer will dex, but will do better with the 1.5 str modifier and still has the racial +4 damage to 2hf.

9 clickies is a bit much?

You've clearly never played a monk or a caster.

I will say, please allow for those of us with enough abilities to pick up some nice passive bonuses and/or stances. I can probably hit 15 keys easily (1-5 + ctrl and alt variants) with quick visual checks usually for alt or ctrl for 6+ or quick mousework. My monk has already filled all those up and beyond (this does include shintao of course) and of course my casters are way beyond.

I like clickies, but it is a struggle to find room on my bars for in combat abilities. Epic destinies made this worse even though I love the abilities. I still haven't figured out where to shift everything on my melee FvS to fit cleave and great cleave on the bar from my epic feats. I do love my satellite beam though...

Diyon
10-18-2012, 04:03 PM
With No Mercy it's logical to keep a strength build (especially as a 2 handed dex weapon doesn't get 1.5 dex modifier)

Dig through Eladrin's responses here. He confirmed that'd we'd be able to use 1.5x dex.

MalarKan
10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
Acrobat (0 AP, 1 Rog)
You can also use your DEX modifier to hit with Quarterstaves


wait... "also" ??? are you guys thinking what im thinking?

Obbu
10-18-2012, 06:10 PM
Currently we're working with a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you wouldn't be able to take Quick Strike in both trees. (It would be redundant, since they're currently identical in every way, including cooldown timer.)

Thanks for the clarification :)

As MrkGrismer points out - theres a small conflict when it comes to later feat pre-reqs:


It would be nice if they were actually considered the identical enhancement, such that if you took it in one tree it was considered 'taken' in all trees. Which would mean you qualify for any other enhancements that use it as a pre-requisite. It would also, at least in theory, mean that any changes to the enhancment would only have to be made once.

Currently acrobat sweeping strike requires acrobat quick strike in order to purchase it - if that is the case, then one needs to purchase the acrobat version, not the henshin version (henshin quick strike currently isnt leading into another skill). While this is not really a problem in and of itself, i think that its a potential constraint that could cause headaches - and is at least worth keeping in mind :).

SealedInSong
10-19-2012, 01:17 AM
My largest concern with what I see so far in the enhancement is the number of clickies. Trip, Sunder, sly flourish, quick strike, sweeping strike and staff lunge on top of cleave, great cleave and possibly stunning blow. 9 combat clickies is a bit much.

With No Mercy it's logical to keep a strength build (especially as a 2 handed dex weapon doesn't get 1.5 dex modifier) and take stunning blow for the 80% extra damage as well as keeping regular trip and sunder usable. A horcrobat will have the same str as a halfer will dex, but will do better with the 1.5 str modifier and still has the racial +4 damage to 2hf.

1] I agree with Bananahat. If you've ever nuked with a caster or played a monk even very casually, or really played any character with a few destiny clickies under your belt, nine clicky attacks would seem paltry. That's one of the best parts of this game--you COULD get by never doing anything but attacking... but try playing a paladin/monk. You'll have a lot more fun with those clickies than autoattacking.

2] Concerning 1.5 dex mod regarding THF:


It should.

Diyon
10-19-2012, 02:09 AM
1] I agree with Bananahat. If you've ever nuked with a caster or played a monk even very casually, or really played any character with a few destiny clickies under your belt, nine clicky attacks would seem paltry. That's one of the best parts of this game--you COULD get by never doing anything but attacking... but try playing a paladin/monk. You'll have a lot more fun with those clickies than autoattacking.

2] Concerning 1.5 dex mod regarding THF:

My concern is when you're already overloaded and get more. Particularly short term ones that you want to be hitting everytime they are off cool down and want them in quick easy reach to maintain them.

For instance, it gets pretty crazy for me when I'm trying to maintain cleave, great cleave, MS, Lay Waste, Imp. Sunder, Stunning blow, hamstring, and lightning mace. At least monk attacks are controlled by ki, so it doesn't feel so much like you are behind if you don't fire something off right away, because the cooldowns aren't your limiting factor, the ki is.

Any case, I'm finding it hard to imagine where I'll put more at this point.

azrael4h
10-19-2012, 04:04 AM
My concern is when you're already overloaded and get more. Particularly short term ones that you want to be hitting everytime they are off cool down and want them in quick easy reach to maintain them.

For instance, it gets pretty crazy for me when I'm trying to maintain cleave, great cleave, MS, Lay Waste, Imp. Sunder, Stunning blow, hamstring, and lightning mace. At least monk attacks are controlled by ki, so it doesn't feel so much like you are behind if you don't fire something off right away, because the cooldowns aren't your limiting factor, the ki is.

Any case, I'm finding it hard to imagine where I'll put more at this point.

You can set up hotbars with hotkeys such as alt and ctrl + # to give ready access. I have 4 and a half bars set up in this manner:

Just # - Healing and abilities I use every time I can. 1 is usually either a bit heal, or a big attack. Stunning Blow/Fist/Cookie, etc go here for melee. Heal scrolls are always here, usually 7, as are cure serious pots, at 8.

Alt + # - Single-target spells, and Wings on FvS, Air Savants, and Monks, as well as anyone with Boots of Propulsion. This also fills in lesser used abilities that I still want to keep around. My Monk keeps her regular strikes, Void Strike, and QP there as well.

Shift + # - Short-term buffs, DoTs. Melee put their weapon swaps here, as they're not that clicky-intensive, and still won't be even with the proposed changes.

CTRL + # - CC on casters. Swap stuff on everyone else.

ALT + Shift + # - Standard potion set, so I can down one and go without stopping to look for them. Back half of the bar is usually swap stuff.

Tweak for taste and class (or lack thereof).

Scraap
10-19-2012, 04:05 AM
Currently we're working with a "You can't take identically named enhancements from different class trees" rule, so you wouldn't be able to take Quick Strike in both trees. (It would be redundant, since they're currently identical in every way, including cooldown timer.)

Would it over-complicate matters to suggest that perhaps you don't receive identical benefits, but ancillary ones would apply?

whittey
10-19-2012, 12:34 PM
9 clickies is a bit much?

You've clearly never played a monk or a caster.I have at least 5 lives of each. On none of them do I constantly spam 9 different abilities. Sure they have tons more clickies, but are you using them all the time? Do you really cloudkill every time it's off cooldown? Do you keep spamming resists once you've cast it already? Even on my monk I stunning fist, neg curse, finisher, ToD, sunder and quivering palm. For autoattack bosses, earth and wind ki strikes get added instead of stunning/quivering. That's the same as my barbarian, who is spamming stun, trip, cleave, gcleave, scleave and sunder. Both toons have 'other' things to keep track of and this doesn't include destiny clickies, but neither do the 9 counted for an acrobat.

shadereaper33
10-19-2012, 01:52 PM
I have at least 5 lives of each. On none of them do I constantly spam 9 different abilities. Sure they have tons more clickies, but are you using them all the time? Do you really cloudkill every time it's off cooldown? Do you keep spamming resists once you've cast it already? Even on my monk I stunning fist, neg curse, finisher, ToD, sunder and quivering palm. For autoattack bosses, earth and wind ki strikes get added instead of stunning/quivering. That's the same as my barbarian, who is spamming stun, trip, cleave, gcleave, scleave and sunder. Both toons have 'other' things to keep track of and this doesn't include destiny clickies, but neither do the 9 counted for an acrobat.

You know, just because you CAN use all of those abilities as soon as they are off cooldown every single time, you don't actually HAVE to. You can strategically use certain abilities and special attacks in certain fights, and others in other fights. For example, just out of your post, stunning fist and quivering palm are useless against bosses, while sunder, neg curse, and most finishers are significantly less useful against the rapidly dying trash before you get to a boss. More options is always a good thing, and at no point are you required to make use of all of them all of the time. If you don't enjoy having 10+ abilities to use, don't take that many abilities. Ultimately, it is your build, and you can do with it whatever you want.

Scraap
10-19-2012, 02:38 PM
To further elaborate on the tumble notion (warning, horribad programmer art):

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Figure a rotated Y axis as opposed to the flat one we've got now when we've a target, possibly followed by a scripted attack after the tumble animation, either with, or without a +W modifier. Distance limited either by distance to target + weapon range (so you can pop behind them if you've got that tumble through target mod) or your tumble skill, in order to encourage folks to spend more than the minimum amount required by their armor/shield values (which also somewhat might encourage taking rogue levels further, since that gives folks that many more skill-points to play with to support it).