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Tid12
10-10-2012, 08:07 AM
From the Update 16 Early preview post:



stealth nerf to reconstruct

they have done what they saying time ago.....i used to heal 454 hp per reconstruct, now on lamaland only 292....

yay for stealth nerf.....



Is this true? Has anyone tested it also? Would like some confirmation.

knockcocker
10-10-2012, 08:20 AM
It's worth checking spellpower. There is a bug where you can override Universal Spell Power on a worn equipment slot
by equipping a weapon/handheld with identical USP. When you change your weapon/handheld, the USP from the
equipment slot is lost.

The best example for this is the Seal of House Szind (+68 USP) and the Staff of the Necromancer (+68 USP). If you
wield the staff to finger some bad guys then switch to your usual +element handhelds, the +68 from the Seal is
lost. You need to re-equip it which can be a massive pain (you can lose a lot of spell points). You normally notice this
when hitting Reconstruct :)

Demonnik-TR
10-10-2012, 08:57 AM
a developer has previously stated that reconstruct spell power benefits would be changed to 0.5 instead of 1
to balance/match the heal spell

I don't remember where though

Tid12
10-10-2012, 09:22 AM
a developer has previously stated that reconstruct spell power benefits would be changed to 0.5 instead of 1
to balance/match the heal spell

I don't remember where though

That I know but when Heal got the change, it was stated in the Release notes. This wasn't. Thats why I'd like some more confirmation.

Also, am I the only one that see, in the DEV TRACKER, a post made by Eladrin in this thread but cannot actually see it?

knockcocker
10-10-2012, 09:24 AM
...post made by Eladrin in this thread but cannot actually see it?

Right. That was definitely there when I made my post '...Reconstruct should be unchanged..." - paraphrased. I
can't see it either now.

Schmoe
10-10-2012, 10:11 AM
There's a post from Eladrin that shows up in the Lammania Dev Tracker as being posted in this thread at 9:12 am. But I can't seem to find that post. Did something happen that I missed?

knockcocker
10-10-2012, 10:15 AM
There's a post from Eladrin that shows up in the Lammania Dev Tracker as being posted in this thread at 9:12 am. But I can't seem to find that post. Did something happen that I missed?

Well, as Eladrin's post stated "Reconstruct is unchanged" you'd have to conclude that the redaction of that statement
implies that indeed it has been changed.

Tid12
10-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Well, as Eladrin's post stated "Reconstruct is unchanged" you'd have to conclude that the redaction of that statement
implies that indeed it has been changed.

Just what I thought.

oradafu
10-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Well, if Reconstruct is taking that big of a hit, then WF need a Repair amp to make up for it. Without the boost, the melee non-blue bar WF are taking yet another hit to being healed.

knockcocker
10-10-2012, 10:24 AM
Well, if Reconstruct is taking that big of a hit, then WF need a Repair amp to make up for it. Without the boost, the melee non-blue bar WF are taking yet another hit to being healed.

Well, at least they get racial immunities to even that out. Oh, wait...

Tid12
10-10-2012, 10:26 AM
Well, if Reconstruct is taking that big of a hit, then WF need a Repair amp to make up for it. Without the boost, the melee non-blue bar WF are taking yet another hit to being healed.

Usually the melees non-blue bar WF will have enough Heal Amp that they are actually healed by Clr/FVS/Drd.

It is a bigger hit for WF casters imho.

DemonAzrael
10-10-2012, 03:51 PM
To me this nerf isnt needed, because heal being nerfed they still have heal amp for good self healing. With repair there is no amp so WF will be stuck without reasonable self healing. Good bye warforged :) we want our points back for this non existent race :)

Missing_Minds
10-10-2012, 03:57 PM
Well, as Eladrin's post stated "Reconstruct is unchanged" you'd have to conclude that the redaction of that statement
implies that indeed it has been changed.

That is what I'm thinking which makes the feat of "constuct essence" on flesh artis pointless to take and you are better off scroll healing Heal spells.

Memnir
10-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Seems like another kick right to the nuts and bolts of WF.

licho
10-10-2012, 04:11 PM
Well, if Reconstruct is taking that big of a hit, then WF need a Repair amp to make up for it. Without the boost, the melee non-blue bar WF are taking yet another hit to being healed.

Wait, somebody plays not arcane, no FvS WF melee?
;-)

karsion
10-10-2012, 08:56 PM
Wait, somebody plays not arcane, no FvS WF melee?
;-)

Yeah, was running with a WF barb today. He kept shouting for repairs all the time :)

BladeTricks
10-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Wow awesome, really gonna make me want to keep playing this game...

knockcocker
10-11-2012, 04:08 AM
From the Update 16 Early preview post:




Is this true? Has anyone tested it also? Would like some confirmation.

I can now confirm this is currently true. With 135 Repair spellpower, Reconstruct is now hitting for 251 (e.g.
1.67 * 150; before it would have 2.35 * 150).

Given that there is no source of repair amplification available (compared to abundant sources of healing amplification)
I really have to question the sanity of the people making these decisions. It's probably better to getting healing amp
and scroll heal now.

This is race which you have to pay for. A race that people paid for on the understanding that it had certain
characteristics. These have now been substantially eroded by changes since U14 yet all the negatives
remain. Why would anyone pay for WF now?

Tid12
10-11-2012, 04:19 AM
Maybe the Enhancement pass will bring some Repair Amp line?

Because if not, I can't justify the money spent for this class.

Moltier
10-11-2012, 05:07 AM
I can now confirm this is currently true. With 135 Repair spellpower, Reconstruct is now hitting for 251 (e.g.
1.67 * 150; before it would have 2.35 * 150).

Given that there is no source of repair amplification available (compared to abundant sources of healing amplification)
I really have to question the sanity of the people making these decisions. It's probably better to getting healing amp
and scroll heal now.

This is race which you have to pay for. A race that people paid for on the understanding that it had certain
characteristics. These have now been substantially eroded by changes since U14 yet all the negatives
remain. Why would anyone pay for WF now?

While i never liked warforgeds... this change is just ridiculous.
Every patch, every update is filled with these kind of idiotic changes in the past months.
Those who make decisions, really dont have a clue about the game...
Their motto must be "break it now, fix it years later".

I just hope they cant kill everything that is enjoyable in this game.

taurean430
10-11-2012, 06:00 AM
Sadly, this change was teased at beta and mentioned again during the divine complaint threads. During both, I was shocked to not see a response by the community in general.

Dunklerlindwurm
10-11-2012, 06:02 AM
I am also guessing there will be Repair-Amp enhancements in the new System.

If not..well this is a bad change.

Syllph
10-11-2012, 06:30 AM
So let me get this straight.

My WF that I used to love, that I paid because it had immunities first had 90% of it's immunities taken away.

Next they change earthgrab (which given was kind of needed). And now they want to nerf the recon spell too? What gives?

I'm sorry, but on a WF caster I need that recon spell to function as it does: we have no repair amp, UMD is out of the question for some, and I really can't find any AP that I could move to gain Repair amp if it were added. This is really, really a bad idea.

Why the WF hate?

(Has anyone tested scrolls? Do they only hit for 75?)

Lycurgus
10-11-2012, 08:24 AM
So let me get this straight.

My WF that I used to love, that I paid because it had immunities first had 90% of it's immunities taken away.

Next they change earthgrab (which given was kind of needed). And now they want to nerf the recon spell too? What gives?

I'm sorry, but on a WF caster I need that recon spell to function as it does: we have no repair amp, UMD is out of the question for some, and I really can't find any AP that I could move to gain Repair amp if it were added. This is really, really a bad idea.

Why the WF hate?

(Has anyone tested scrolls? Do they only hit for 75?)

And no +3 insight docent.

If you start with the assumption that they're trying to stealth nerf the hell out of WF favored souls and sorcs, a lot of the changes since U14 start making sense. I personally think the designers want casters to be squishy, NOT swinging a greatsword, preferably hiding behind phallic objects and peeking out to pew.

It really may be time to take a break from this game.

Missing_Minds
10-11-2012, 08:44 AM
Maybe the Enhancement pass will bring some Repair Amp line?

Because if not, I can't justify the money spent for this class.
Even if it does come with a repair amp line, it doesn't justify it because gear does not equate equally for them.

However, if they had a direct AC/PRR advantage (WARforged after all), being made of denser material, I could see that be a balancing act for it.
That or make healing amplifcation work with ALL types of healing. cureative for fleshies, repair for construct, and negative for undead.

Jeromio
10-11-2012, 09:09 AM
If you start with the assumption that they're trying to stealth nerf the hell out of WF favored souls and sorcs, a lot of the changes since U14 start making sense. I personally think the designers want casters to be squishy, NOT swinging a greatsword, preferably hiding behind phallic objects and peeking out to pew.

It really may be time to take a break from this game.

This might actually be true. I noticed today, when I started a new wizard TR, that they've removed Master's Touch from the market lvl 1 scroll vendor. It's still in the portable hole though...

Sonos
10-11-2012, 10:23 AM
The end is nigh! For the WF the holocaust is coming!

Seriously, can we leave the WF's alone please and thank you. We paid real life money for it.

Or kill it completely and offer a refund but don't keep squeezing us out of the character creation page.

MRMechMan
10-11-2012, 10:36 AM
There were several threads with people PLEADING not to do this. Someone mentioned in the (very long and bitter) heal spell thread that recon was ALSO not effected by maximize and empower (the reason they justified nerfing heal in the first place), so they should not nerf heal. Instead, they decided to nerf recon, as well...why not? well...

Heal spell has several things going for it that reconstruct does not; mainly the fact that it removes most negative effects like poison, disease, stat damage, and also the existance of HEALING AMPLIFICATION. Also...empower heal feat, hello!??! No empower reconstruct feat.....

With 10%/20%/30% amp and 20% racial amp (or paladin PLs), heal is TWICE as effective as reconstruct. Throw in empower heal and the fleshie healing himself is hitting for THREE TIMES as much...so why nerf reconstruct....??!!



This is a pointless nerf. Really. WIth MoTU player HP was going way up...why not let the healing spells scale up a bit as well?


Vicious, pointless, player-hating nerf that serves no balancing issues and hurts an already weak race. Good job turbine.

HOW does this even get you money? I don't see their angle here besides SP pot sales, and a few extra hp/reconstruct is nickels and dimes...give the players a freakin break, for once.


NO to half spellpower for reconstruct. NO to it way back then when they promised the nerf and NO to it now when they finally implemented it.

Fix something that IS broken.

karl_k0ch
10-11-2012, 10:37 AM
Seems like another kick right to the nuts and bolts of WF.

Pun hell. You must come from there. +1.

Sonos
10-11-2012, 10:51 AM
Also, while in the demonweb, won't recon seem like a repair serious wand?

If the nerf is imminent is it 50%? why not 75%?

OR leave it the .....alone.


There were several threads with people PLEADING not to do this. Someone mentioned in the (very long and bitter) heal spell thread that recon was ALSO not effected by maximize and empower (the reason they justified nerfing heal in the first place), so they should not nerf heal. Instead, they decided to nerf recon, as well...why not? well...

Heal spell has several things going for it that reconstruct does not; mainly the fact that it removes most negative effects like poison, disease, stat damage, and also the existance of HEALING AMPLIFICATION. Also...empower heal feat, hello!??! No empower reconstruct feat.....

With 10%/20%/30% amp and 20% racial amp (or paladin PLs), heal is TWICE as effective as reconstruct. Throw in empower heal and the fleshie healing himself is hitting for THREE TIMES as much...so why nerf reconstruct....??!!



This is a pointless nerf. Really. WIth MoTU player HP was going way up...why not let the healing spells scale up a bit as well?


Vicious, pointless, player-hating nerf that serves no balancing issues and hurts an already weak race. Good job turbine.

HOW does this even get you money? I don't see their angle here besides SP pot sales, and a few extra hp/reconstruct is nickels and dimes...give the players a freakin break, for once.


NO to half spellpower for reconstruct. NO to it way back then when they promised the nerf and NO to it now when they finally implemented it.

Fix something that IS broken.

I do remember the long debate threads but I thought that reason would win the war.

R0cksteady
10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
Thank god, another WF nerf.

I saw a WF on Khyber the other day and was horrified that Turbine hasn't nerfed them hard enough to make sure NO ONE plays them.

Finally, they can be even less desirable than even elves now.

Skeald
10-11-2012, 11:35 AM
While you are nerfing Reconstruct, why not go the extra mile and nerf Construct Essence as well, because now that sub-optimal (but still somwhat handy) feat has been raised to the usefulness of skill focus - heal.

Yet another pointless nerf that effects one race (and nich builds), and punishes players for absolutly no good reason.

Missing_Minds
10-11-2012, 11:36 AM
Also, while in the demonweb, won't recon seem like a repair serious wand?

If the nerf is imminent is it 50%? why not 75%?


Pre nerfs, a fleshie Arti with "Construct Essence" took 25% less healing from a cure, and 50% less healing from a recon.

Now after the nerfs that same character gets even less. 50% less from the spell power nerfing of heal like every one else then chop it again by 25%. So what, they get only 37.5% of what the heal spell was?

Reconstruct now gets hit with the same nerf. 50% less spell power, and again 50% less of that again. So now they get 25% of the original base reconstruct. They never got the "haste boost" from it.



So.. Eladrin, Buddy.... Just what is the design intent going to be now?

Miow
10-11-2012, 11:36 AM
I am also guessing there will be Repair-Amp enhancements in the new System.

If not..well this is a bad change.

If this is so why make the change now without the other?.............

Postumus
10-11-2012, 11:54 AM
Pre nerfs, a fleshie Arti with "Construct Essence" took 25% less healing from a cure, and 50% less healing from a recon.

Now after the nerfs that same character gets even less. 50% less from the spell power nerfing of heal like every one else then chop it again by 25%. So what, they get only 37.5% of what the heal spell was?

Reconstruct now gets hit with the same nerf. 50% less spell power, and again 50% less of that again. So now they get 25% of the original base reconstruct. They never got the "haste boost" from it.



So.. Eladrin, Buddy.... Just what is the design intent going to be now?

I.m wondering if there is even a reason to play a WF Arti after this nerf?

Missing_Minds
10-11-2012, 11:57 AM
I.m wondering if there is even a reason to play a WF Arti after this nerf?

well, you wouldn't have the issue of taking double penalty for the reconstruct.

But you'd have just as much reason to play a WF arti as you would a WF wiz/sorc.

knockcocker
10-11-2012, 02:31 PM
There were several threads with people PLEADING not to do this. Someone mentioned in the (very long and bitter) heal spell thread that recon was ALSO not effected by maximize and empower (the reason they justified nerfing heal in the first place), so they should not nerf heal. Instead, they decided to nerf recon, as well...why not? well...

Heal spell has several things going for it that reconstruct does not; mainly the fact that it removes most negative effects like poison, disease, stat damage, and also the existance of HEALING AMPLIFICATION. Also...empower heal feat, hello!??! No empower reconstruct feat.....

With 10%/20%/30% amp and 20% racial amp (or paladin PLs), heal is TWICE as effective as reconstruct. Throw in empower heal and the fleshie healing himself is hitting for THREE TIMES as much...so why nerf reconstruct....??!!



This is a pointless nerf. Really. WIth MoTU player HP was going way up...why not let the healing spells scale up a bit as well?


Vicious, pointless, player-hating nerf that serves no balancing issues and hurts an already weak race. Good job turbine.

HOW does this even get you money? I don't see their angle here besides SP pot sales, and a few extra hp/reconstruct is nickels and dimes...give the players a freakin break, for once.


NO to half spellpower for reconstruct. NO to it way back then when they promised the nerf and NO to it now when they finally implemented it.

Fix something that IS broken.

Totally agree. +1.

BlackSteel
10-11-2012, 02:49 PM
I dont c much changing unless you were already swapping to a repair stick to heal urself. or leaving the master artiface ring on all the time

reasoning:

1) scrolls will hit you for the same before and after. SPELL POWER is changing, has nothing to do with how much a scroll hits for

2) comparing a repair +120 stick to most universal spell power items ~70, accounts for a large %



you'll notice a big nerf if you were already swapping to a repair stick before hitting recon. you'll notice zero change if you mostly relied on scrolls to repair urself. and you'll only see a minor nerf if you were being lazy and relying on universal spell power to cover your repairing needs

taurean430
10-11-2012, 03:01 PM
There were several threads with people PLEADING not to do this. Someone mentioned in the (very long and bitter) heal spell thread that recon was ALSO not effected by maximize and empower (the reason they justified nerfing heal in the first place), so they should not nerf heal. Instead, they decided to nerf recon, as well...why not? well...

Heal spell has several things going for it that reconstruct does not; mainly the fact that it removes most negative effects like poison, disease, stat damage, and also the existance of HEALING AMPLIFICATION. Also...empower heal feat, hello!??! No empower reconstruct feat.....

With 10%/20%/30% amp and 20% racial amp (or paladin PLs), heal is TWICE as effective as reconstruct. Throw in empower heal and the fleshie healing himself is hitting for THREE TIMES as much...so why nerf reconstruct....??!!



This is a pointless nerf. Really. WIth MoTU player HP was going way up...why not let the healing spells scale up a bit as well?


Vicious, pointless, player-hating nerf that serves no balancing issues and hurts an already weak race. Good job turbine.

HOW does this even get you money? I don't see their angle here besides SP pot sales, and a few extra hp/reconstruct is nickels and dimes...give the players a freakin break, for once.


NO to half spellpower for reconstruct. NO to it way back then when they promised the nerf and NO to it now when they finally implemented it.

Fix something that IS broken.

Yep.

You were there along with what's turned out to be the usual suspects arguing against the idea as was I. Sadly, this is still going through.

It looks to me like the actual intent is to remove one of the pedestals that wf casters have to stand upon, in effect bringing them closer to glass cannon status. While I played Half as a wf sorc, I had no fear of standing within cleaves and high damage zones knowing I could recon when low on hp. This adjustment will make the possibility of dying an actual concern.

Just like heal, there will be ways to boost it's effectiveness at the highest levels in the game. Mid levels are thrown under the bus. Unlike heal, stat damage and status effects will remain unaffected by recon.

I suppose I should be glad they didn't turn the recon spell into something that only works on others I guess. :(

knockcocker
10-11-2012, 03:09 PM
I dont c much changing unless you were already swapping to a repair stick to heal urself. or leaving the master artiface ring on all the time

reasoning:

1) scrolls will hit you for the same before and after. SPELL POWER is changing, has nothing to do with how much a scroll hits for

2) comparing a repair +120 stick to most universal spell power items ~70, accounts for a large %



you'll notice a big nerf if you were already swapping to a repair stick before hitting recon. you'll notice zero change if you mostly relied on scrolls to repair urself. and you'll only see a minor nerf if you were being lazy and relying on universal spell power to cover your repairing needs

Right...

Reconstruct has la narrower scope than heal and is not able to be boosted by feats or amplification. Why does it
need to be nerf'ed? Moving from USP (assume 68) to a specialist stick (say 120) nets you +52 spellpower or about
39 extra HP of healing. Still think it's worth it?

Currently 123 spellpower gets you 334 points of healing. This drops to 242.

Syllph
10-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Right...

Reconstruct has la narrower scope than heal and is not able to be boosted by feats or amplification. Why does it
need to be nerf'ed? Moving from USP (assume 68) to a specialist stick (say 120) nets you +52 spellpower or about
39 extra HP of healing. Still think it's worth it?

Currently 123 spellpower gets you 334 points of healing. This drops to 242.

And last I checked on my caster my PRR was sitting next to none, which meant that Epic Elite mobs were hitting me through 150% fort for ~200 a hit. At 242 I need to heal every hit. That's just.... (nerd-rage)

Seriously, this is a premium class, it's supposed to have advantages others don't (or it would be a f2p class yeah?) You've removed the immunities. You've removed the immunity to earthgrab, You've nerfed Repair. So now I can't heal well and I'm immune to exhaustion. yay. (I don't include immunity to level drain because everyone in epic levels has immunity to level drain via spells/clickies)

mutilador
10-11-2012, 05:08 PM
Thx Turbine for finally make one last stupid change to make me quit this ****ing game. Thank You.

Xezrak
10-11-2012, 07:30 PM
Is this change going to be implemented? Confirmation by the devs in either direction would be fantastic.

On the bright side there will be A LOT less WF running around FR personally really don't like the look of WF, but this also means I will be TRing out of my WF sorc into a fleshy melee sooner :)

knockcocker
10-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Is this change going to be implemented? Confirmation by the devs in either direction would be fantastic.

On the bright side there will be A LOT less WF running around FR personally really don't like the look of WF, but this also means I will be TRing out of my WF sorc into a fleshy melee sooner :)

They need to do Race based LR when pulling BS like this (coupled with the change to immunities). I'd prefer to be
human now as they make better sorcerers anyway plus healing amp would make scroll healing hit for more than
Reconstruct will...

In fact, the only way to get comparable Reconstruct is to drop 7 AP into the Repair line and use a 120 Reconstruction
spellpower stick (should hit for ~337 assuming +15 implement and Fey Form twisted). It's probably better to spend
those AP on Healers Friend, pick up some healing amp and use Heal scrolls. Also frees up a L6 slot which are
notoriously tight.

LafoMamone
10-12-2012, 10:30 AM
Yep.

It looks to me like the actual intent is to remove one of the pedestals that wf casters have to stand upon, in effect bringing them closer to glass cannon status

What Turbine doesn't realize is that this is completely unnecessary. I couldn't help but notice a constant decline of WF sorcs/wizards on my server, as people are constantly pursuing higher DC toons. I see more fleshy sorcs now than I ever have on Sarlona. This problem was also exacerbated by WF no longer being immune to poison, disease, earthgrab, etc.

Nerfing recon will not remove just *one* of the pedestals that WF casters have to stand upon, it will remove the very last slimmer of hope that WF casters have at maintaining any sort of competitive presence in this game.

WF melees have already been completely eradicated by Horcs. If Turbine goes through with this incredibly silly change, WF casters will suffer a similar fate.

DeafeningWhisper
10-12-2012, 10:39 AM
My human arty that had to invest heavely into the repair line and use a repair item to use Construct Essence with some effectiveness, now that somewhat decent enough feat is complete garbage...

ddo.rsmo.pt
10-12-2012, 10:44 AM
I don't like WF.

But one has to wonder: since the once favorite race of the Devs has been consistently demoted... are we to see a new paid race coming up soon?

I vote for Mindflayer. Please.

Carry on.

ZeebaNeighba
10-12-2012, 11:11 AM
So...first they get their immunities removed, and accidentally bork healer's friend. Then the price jacked up by like 200 (?) points. Then reconstruct will get nerfed. What's next, they get a -20 penalty to their constitution?

JOTMON
10-12-2012, 11:16 AM
The whole healing amp, repair amp is an annoying problem.

Fix the system... make Healing amp apply to incoming repair.

Change the skills for heal and repair to apply a 1% per point invested.

I see this repair nerf as a final nail in my WF coffin, first melee WF now blue bar WF..

WF are now susceptible to poison disease.. Repair doesnt get rid of poison or disease, but Heal does.

Was Repair changed to fix disease/poison.. no , were there more repair amp items shown in lamaland, no.

The constant nerfing of WF without giving something to offset the nerf is killing the race, a race I paid for that had immunities, not the nerfed version i have now.

ZeebaNeighba
10-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Actually, on the bright side, the u16 release notes say Warforged can finally get the effects of Spellsong Vigor. It's something...better late than never :)

MRMechMan
10-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Warforged were somewhere between a flavor choice and a very, very unideal choice before this change for bards, rogues, fighters, barbarians, monks, rangers, paladins, druids, wizard, cleric and favored soul.

Now, they are probably not even the ideal choice for the last bastion of ideality that they had: sorc, wizard and artificer.

GrampaBill
10-12-2012, 03:25 PM
Is this change going to be implemented? Confirmation by the devs in either direction would be fantastic.

Of course it will be implemented. Unless there is a gigantic stink made about it then someone will actually look and investigate and realize it's a mistake. Good luck to us all.

GrampaBill
10-12-2012, 03:28 PM
Maybe the Enhancement pass will bring some Repair Amp line?


We all need to stop hoping and wishing that the enhancement pass will fix anything or everything. It's not going to be implemented in 2012 and in all likelihood it will be summer of 2013 before we see it.

Lycurgus
10-12-2012, 03:48 PM
Of course it will be implemented. Unless there is a gigantic stink made about it then someone will actually look and investigate and realize it's a mistake. Good luck to us all.

Unfortunately, I doubt there are enough WF casters left in the game to make a gigantic stink. And that's a large part of the problem. There are ALEADY enough penalties to being WF which is why WF casting is ALREADY reduced to a flavor choice. One less feat than human, 2 int behind drow, 6 starting cha, no +3 int/cha docent, racial immunities reduced to irrelevance, and existing healing penalties make WF suboptimal in every regard except survivability in the face of burst damage.

If they're going to bork that, they need to refund every player who paid for the damned race.

Postumus
10-12-2012, 04:28 PM
well, you wouldn't have the issue of taking double penalty for the reconstruct.

But you'd have just as much reason to play a WF arti as you would a WF wiz/sorc.

I thinking more along the lines of if I'm not going to max out my reconstruct lines, and I'm going to rely on heal scrolls for the majority of my healing, what advantage do I really get from playing a WF after L15 or so?


Sure I can use repair spells on myself initally, but with reconstruct halved, I'd probably get more value out of playing another race in the long run.

This will definitely affect is my weekly static group that is comprised of all WF (well 5 WF and a fleshie). Fortunately we are about to cap so we may just TR.

Kinerd
10-12-2012, 05:00 PM
What Turbine doesn't realize is that this is completely unnecessary. I couldn't help but notice a constant decline of WF sorcs/wizards on my server, as people are constantly pursuing higher DC toons. I see more fleshy sorcs now than I ever have on Sarlona. This problem was also exacerbated by WF no longer being immune to poison, disease, earthgrab, etc.

Nerfing recon will not remove just *one* of the pedestals that WF casters have to stand upon, it will remove the very last slimmer of hope that WF casters have at maintaining any sort of competitive presence in this game.

WF melees have already been completely eradicated by Horcs. If Turbine goes through with this incredibly silly change, WF casters will suffer a similar fate.I think the trick is that, no disrespect to taurean430, there is no intent/reason in the way we understand it.

If Turbine's changes had reasons, no change this stupid would happen.
Changes this stupid have happened, are happening, and will continue to happen.
Ergo, their changes don't have reasons.

They just don't care. That's the mindset you have to put yourself in, not the mindset of a person who is actually trying to bring about some kind of change in gameplay, population, economics, etc.

Turbine just does not care.

Aashrym
10-12-2012, 10:29 PM
I think the trick is that, no disrespect to taurean430, there is no intent/reason in the way we understand it.

If Turbine's changes had reasons, no change this stupid would happen.
Changes this stupid have happened, are happening, and will continue to happen.
Ergo, their changes don't have reasons.

They just don't care. That's the mindset you have to put yourself in, not the mindset of a person who is actually trying to bring about some kind of change in gameplay, population, economics, etc.

Turbine just does not care.

I disagree.

The changes were made so that other spells could be buffed more easily with higher spell power without going overboard on spells that have high base numbers. An attempt to buff some other spells is a sign they are working towards something positive, whether everyone agrees with those changes or not. IE They demonstrated caring and good intent by providing a solution in the first place.

In the case of reconstruct I would have hoped that it would continue with full spell power because it's a niche spell to start with and doesn't carry a lot of the benefits also available with heal.

I can see an argument for limiting caster self healing a bit. Casters do have a lot of advantages and a smaller self heal might be appropriate. Unpopular to some, but appropriate.

The problem is WF need some work overall and this change doesn't help them one bit, and we're back to reconstruct still being a niche spell to start with.

I still think the good intentions were obvious and can see the reasoning, regardless of who likes it and who doesn't. ;)

ZeebaNeighba
10-13-2012, 11:13 AM
I have a feeling Turbine just "forgot" about all the other spells getting 100% spell power and no maximize or empower...that they're going for pale masters next, when I think about how Harm, (Lesser) Death Aura, and instakills with saves can't be beefed up with maximize or empower...

bibimbap
10-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Seriously? Please don't do this!

Please Please Please Please Please Dont!!! Please!!!!!!!!! I have several Tr's I love playing warforged it's my favourite race hell I even have a warforged barbarian PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't!!!!!!!!!!!

Dawnsfire
10-13-2012, 01:06 PM
I suspect it is the whole 'Glass Cannon' thing. During the Heal 'nerf' discussions, a lot of people people on the anti-nerf side complained using the argument that the most powerful DPS (sorc) and Instakill (wiz) classes could heal themselves just fine as WF and it was unfair that fleshies using either build in heals (fvs + cleric) or scroll healing would be adversely affected.

We now know (or maybe should have known) that between healing amp and 1/2 spell power they are getting by just fine. I guess it is another lesson learned (or should be learned). Never argue that another race/class has it better, Turbine prefers to nerf people down to another's level. They don't seem to like to raise folks up for matching.

Since they seem to have no intention of actually reversing this I'll try some psychology. As someone up thread said, the easiest way for Turbine to partially fix this is to allow Healing Amp Gear/enhancements to affect repair spells. Oh and add a racial Healing Amp line to WF. Simple fix, copy and paste the human heal amp line and add repair spells to list of effects magnified.

Drakesan
10-13-2012, 01:56 PM
Awesome. Beautiful. With all the other nerfs to WF, why am I not surprised? Good choice.

Oh, and you need to raise the price on WF AGAIN, really make an effort to **** off your player base. I don't think the last round of nerfs/price raising did enough.

Postumus
10-13-2012, 02:24 PM
I think the trick is that, no disrespect to taurean430, there is no intent/reason in the way we understand it.

If Turbine's changes had reasons, no change this stupid would happen.
Changes this stupid have happened, are happening, and will continue to happen.
Ergo, their changes don't have reasons.

They just don't care. That's the mindset you have to put yourself in, not the mindset of a person who is actually trying to bring about some kind of change in gameplay, population, economics, etc.

Turbine just does not care.

I think there must be some kind of rationale behind it, but this was my biggest concern with the SP mechanic change. A dev stated that now they could more easily tweak spells to recieve full, half, or any increment of SP to help balance the game.

Reconstruct won't be the last spell that is affected in this way.

SealedInSong
10-13-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't feel great about this change, mostly because I think the devs have better things to do, like fix things that are actually broken.

That said, I'd really like to see less "I'm quitting this game" threats and maybe more constructive examples and petition-signing. Or alternatives suggested.

One thing I'd like to see is construct revival--if we get things taken away from us for no reason (and unannounced, at that), it'd be nice to see something new and appropriate added, like having arcanes and artificers be able to literally reconstruct/resurrect dead constructs.

Also, I'd like for the devs to never stealth nerf things; they should always announce these changes unless it's some tiny and fun Easter egg in an item (docent of defiance, ring of lies, etc.). It really just ****es people off and reduces credibility.

Missing_Minds
10-13-2012, 03:57 PM
I don't feel great about this change, mostly because I think the devs have better things to do, like fix things that are actually broken.

That said, I'd really like to see less "I'm quitting this game" threats and maybe more constructive examples and petition-signing. Or alternatives suggested.

One thing I'd like to see is construct revival
That's just it. We did give them constructive feedback when they were actively talking to us about this nerf to be.

Yeah... When people with power don't listen, they don't tend to have power over others for very long. Esp in a game when players can just walk away.

DarkForte
10-13-2012, 06:21 PM
I'm already of the opinion WF are very much inferior to fleshies in both wizardry (where a fleshy pale master has higher DCs or spell pen and comparable healing) and sorcery (where the higher DCs make a difference, along with the difficulty of taking repeated hits to the face on EE even if you're a reconning toaster closing the gap). If anything, WF need a buff, not a nerf.

countfitz
10-13-2012, 06:52 PM
Just FYI, this is one of those slippery slope things.

Or more along the lines of "when they came for the jews, I didn't speak out, because I wasn't a jew...when they came for me, there was no one left..."

Yeah, there was some healer rage when the heal nerf came, but not enough, and there were fanbois crying it's okay.

Look at the ED change. Unanimity on the forums, the devs are going to change ED costs (and don't you dare tell me they were REALLY going to change it in U16 and it was just a bug, that's a lie and we all know it).

If we'd been unanimous on the heal nerf, this one wouldn't have happened. Obviously.

azrael4h
10-13-2012, 07:28 PM
If we'd been unanimous on the heal nerf, this one wouldn't have happened. Obviously.

You're an optimist.

At least I never found WF fun to play. So I'm only out one now-gimped Artificer thanks to an out-of-touch development team.

tsotate
10-13-2012, 11:05 PM
I'm looking on the bright side. I just think of all the TP I won't have to waste buying WF when my sub is up.

arkonas
10-13-2012, 11:12 PM
i don't see how they can compare heal spell to reconstruct. its just amazing they would do this. this current nerf is on lammania right now with update 16. Turbine stop stealth nerfing stuff and actually talk to us. there is no reasoning behind this. before the update i was healing myself for 309. that was fine for me. now when i was on lammania i was only healing for 237. since there is no way to increase it without actually wearing an item or maxing the line. i dont want to do that.


healing amp doesnt effect it nor is there a line for it in wf. also the spell isn't as useful as heal. Empower heal doesn't effect it either. so i just don't understand why.

GrampaBill
10-13-2012, 11:13 PM
Eladrin, if you happen to be reading this thread, this is a prime example where players are (mostly) calm in stating their disagreement with how something is being done. With absolutely no input from the development staff side, it's like discussing an issue with a brick wall. THIS is why I've stated that "Demand" threads actually seem to work whereas the "Please" threads are ignored.

I fear a repeating mistake by the development staff where they think they are correct in their thought processes but are in fact wrong wrong wrong. If they would just explain these thought processes to the players there's the possibility they may come to the realization that said developer is not approaching the issue from the correct point of view. Of course, there's always the possibility of the player's realizing that the developer is traveling a true course.

Here's what drives this particular post:


You're right. =)
I didn't do any math on it, instead I just made a quick assumption, which was wrong. You're indeed right, and multiplicative stacking Healer's Friend will never catch up with the base increase.
And now, in my shame, I'll stop wasting my time on the forums and get back to fixing bugs!

I would also like you to please notice the title of the above referenced thread wherein it had to be proven to a developer that they were wrong with their thought process.

MRMechMan
10-14-2012, 03:46 AM
It is not a WF nerf though.

It is a construct nerf because this effects both WF, fleshies that took "Construct Essence" feat, arti dogs, and any one that took any of the "iron companion" and use recon to repair them.

It is an iron defender nerf. But not many people use those, and if they are using recon to repair them, they are most likely warforged as well.

It is an arti dog nerf. But that is pretty minor compared to SELF healing. And, a large portion of artificers ARE warforged, at least for now.

It is a construct essence nerf. This feat is pretty useless with this change, sadly.

It is mainly, however, a warforged nerf. Warforged are the ones who suffer most from this change. Most melees are fleshie. No one plays warforged melee because with recent "balancing" human, halfelf and horc are FAR, FAR better. Warforged are only really good for 2.5 classes-arti, sorc and wizard archmage. Mostly BECAUSE of quickened self heals.

Not anymore. I see plenty of fleshie artis/sorcs/wizards, so it is not like warforged was a nobrainer. It was simply a strong option for a strong class. Why nerf options? It is so typical of them, balancing the game with a maul when it doesn't need changing at all.

Fleshie construct essence folk can swap it out and use scrolls, which will hit for more than 1/2 spellpower 50% recons anyway. An arti dog dying because your recon hit it for less than it did would be somewhat rare, and not a HUGE deal even if it did happen. No one I know even uses the iron companion feats.

It is a nerf to WF sorcs, WF arti and WF archmages. Are these classes self healing powerful? Yes.

But no moreso than fleshie fvs/clr/druids....hell, even 50% spellpower heals hit for FAR more than 100% spellpower recons, due to empower heal feat and the way healing amp stacks.

With recon now being changed to 50% spellpower as well, it isn't even close.


I am not sure what they are thinking. Mostly because they don't tell us ever. And partly because there is no reasonable justification for 50% spellpower for certain spells. Particularly reconstruct.

They say they wanted to keep those spells at pre-motu values...but with EE mobs hitting way harder AND player HP going up by about 50%, what is the big deal if recons go up 20-30%? Now they will be 5-10% lower for most players, maybe getting back to the 337 with max enh and 75% clickie going...WITH max gear, clickie going, 120 recon item, etc.

Is there some kind of formal decision making, oversight or testing that goes into the development of this game? We've got gargoyles sticking to ceilings because someone decided their death animation (that no one complained about) had to be changed.

Oh well. Another needless, poorly thought out and unexplained (unexplainable?) change to **** off the player base.

If they don't happen at least once a week, it isn't DDO.

Persiflage
10-14-2012, 07:14 AM
/signed for the general utter disapproval of the change, the feeling that we're once again being bent over for having any WF toons at all, and the frustration that nobody's prepared to share their thought processes and explain how this is going to benefit the game in any way whatsoever. And +1 to MrMechMan for a well-stated summary.

Really hacked off here, for the same reasons as most in this thread.

GrampaBill
10-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Eladrin, if you happen to be reading this thread . . .

Oops, I forgot the secret cookie to get a dev to respond:

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/8/22/v_8CgkXZbky5KO8LrE63Ow2.jpg

Missing_Minds
10-15-2012, 11:28 AM
Oops, I forgot the secret cookie to get a dev to respond:

Bad choice, because unless they've got the eyepatch, as soon as they look away they'll forget any un nerfing they may have been willing to do.

DarkForte
10-15-2012, 11:37 AM
So, instead of buffing WF melees to get on par with other classes, you nerf WF casters to get to the relative strength of WF melee compared to human/helf. Delightful.

DeafeningWhisper
10-15-2012, 12:24 PM
So, instead of buffing WF melees to get on par with other classes, you nerf WF casters to get to the relative strength of WF melee compared to human/helf. Delightful.

Well people *have* been asking for more balance between casters and melees. :)

In all seriousness it was a niche spell, that is still weaker then it's big brother "Heal", no need to nerf it to pieces.

Credinus
10-15-2012, 05:21 PM
Didn't the subscription cancellation forms for DDO used to have a survey/feedback section to explain why you are cancelling?


Because it doesn't now, and I was really hoping to use that in hopes that complaints about this change would reach the right people. :\

Kinerd
10-15-2012, 08:57 PM
The changes were made so that other spells could be buffed more easily with higher spell power without going overboard on spells that have high base numbers. An attempt to buff some other spells is a sign they are working towards something positive, whether everyone agrees with those changes or not. IE They demonstrated caring and good intent by providing a solution in the first place.It could be that the devs are going to release a super-high Reconstruction item and make the base Repair line useful, yes.

However, I feel that it's overwhelmingly more likely an ill-informed executive looked at Heal, looked at Reconstruct, and dictated "hey! those should be the same!", having NO IDEA that the problem with Heal was Mass Heal (base 250 vs. 150 and Empower Heal vs. NO Empower Repair and clerics having to max the heal line vs. wizards never maxing the repair line and and and and and).

I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt. When certain people have taken that and slapped me in the face with it over and over, I am naturally inclined to conclude that they no longer deserve that benefit.
Just FYI, this is one of those slippery slope things.

Or more along the lines of "when they came for the jews, I didn't speak out, because I wasn't a jew...when they came for me, there was no one left..."

Yeah, there was some healer rage when the heal nerf came, but not enough, and there were fanbois crying it's okay.

Look at the ED change. Unanimity on the forums, the devs are going to change ED costs (and don't you dare tell me they were REALLY going to change it in U16 and it was just a bug, that's a lie and we all know it).

If we'd been unanimous on the heal nerf, this one wouldn't have happened. Obviously.So wait... the warforged are Jewish? I always thought dwarves were the clumsy reference to Jewish stereotypes.

GrampaBill
10-15-2012, 10:25 PM
It could be that the devs are going to release a super-high Reconstruction item and make the base Repair line useful, yes.


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24099642.jpg

Aashrym
10-15-2012, 10:52 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24099642.jpg

That made me laugh out loud. You, sir, have a gift. :D

Faent
10-15-2012, 11:04 PM
This is stupid. It's so stupid, my head hurts thinking about how stupid it is. So the DEV's were smoking weed, and now they're mainlining crack. What's next?

Faent
10-15-2012, 11:17 PM
I mean, obviously, in the mind of the genius DEVs who are responsible for this trainwreck, a spell that doesn't cure a ton of conditions and which can't be massively amped through Healing Amplificaiton or Metas needs to be treated the same way as a spell that does cure a ton of conditions and which can be massively amped through Healing Amplification and Metas. The intellectual horsepower of the DEV's who are responsible for this ought to be measured in miniature pony units. I give them .1 miniature ponies worth of brains.

And this trainwreck of idiotic stupidity comes after (i) Feather of the Sun's screwing WF over gear-wise, (ii) Turbine's upping the price of WF, and (iii) Turbine's nerfing the immunities of WF.

My God. The stupid, it burns.

Credinus
10-15-2012, 11:26 PM
Doesn't Heal also have a lower base SP cost than Reconstruct?


So, again, tallying up how much worse Reconstruct is than Heal:

-Higher SP cost
-No Empower Repair feat
-No repair amplification enhancements
-No repair amplification gear
-Little room for casters currently using Reconstruct to add more AP into enhancing repairs (compared to heals, which dedicated healers will almost always have boosted)
-Can't remove status effects
-ONLY affects Warforged or fleshie artificers with the Construct Essence feat, rather than affecting (even if partially) all races
-Can't be used to deal damage (compared to Heal's ability to harm Undead)
-No Mass Reconstruct
-Along with no Mass Reconstruct, no version that scales beyond CL15
-Can't be used to heal quest NPCs that need protected in the vast majority of cases


Seriously, weigh all of this in and then try to justify nerfing Reconstruct in the same way that Heal was.

Faent
10-15-2012, 11:43 PM
Seriously, weigh all of this in and then try to justify nerfing Reconstruct in the same way that Heal was.

They seem to think that if they change all of the rules all the time, folks will retain their interest. I doubt it. If this goes live, I'll be dropping to F2P. And I'll be prepping for that drop by TR'ing my Warforged AM into a Human PM before this stupidity goes live. And I won't be buying the WF race I was considering buying (despite their recent set of massive nerfs to us).

Have fun with this business model Turbine. Hope it breaks you.

MRMechMan
10-16-2012, 12:15 AM
Higher SP cost


Heal base cost is 5 sp higher, 40sp vs 35sp.

That being said, you are absolutely right for everything else.

This change is not bringing balance. It is UNBALANCING if anything.

I mean...look at the past few months:

Upping WF cost in the store,
nerfing the ONLY reason to get them (wf artis/sorcs/archmages, warforged are the WORST racial choice for any melee character or positive energy self healing character),
nerfing their immunities,
nerfing their armor class,
dung enhancements (compared to human, and helf, and horc, yep even halfling, and dwarf. on par with elf/drow)
hardly any good docents...DOD is pretty useless now to be honest.

...i mean...they broke WF amp and didn't even realize it was broken because they DIDN'T KNOW HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO STACK. Despite multiple posts about it, for months. MONTHS. Posts asking, wondering, begging, pleading, and finally, yes, demanding. Everyone knew what was going on except the people that design and develop this game.

Not a single dev plays a warforged character?

Warforged are worse than an afterthought. I wish they WERE an afterthought, at least they wouldn't blatantly target WF characters with nerfs then.

Go nerf somewhere else, devs. Better yet, fix something that IS broken. There is a very long list to chose from.

djl
10-16-2012, 12:22 AM
Feather of Sun's secret identity is Toven D'Cannith. He quietly plots to destroy the Warforged race.

Faent
10-16-2012, 12:27 AM
Not a single dev plays a warforged character?

Feather of the Sun doesn't. And we're stuck with him right now. We have someone who doesn't like to play WF in charge of gear design, and it shows. We have lame gear design as a result. Oh, and we have lots of My Little Pony stuff too. Awesome.


Go nerf somewhere else, devs. Better yet, fix something that IS broken. There is a very long list to chose from.

The stuff that is broken (including the broken classes) are just too hard for them to fix. The broken becomes WAI since it's so darn hard to fix. The resources just aren't there. They don't know their own code.

Lonnbeimnech
10-16-2012, 01:06 AM
if they are going through with this, they should have healers friend effect incoming repairs too.

MRMechMan
10-16-2012, 01:51 AM
if they are going through with this, they should have healers friend effect incoming repairs too.

Considering that it has been changed to "heals hit you for 60/70/80% base", not sure why anyone would take an enhancement that lowered the amount they got repaired by. The old +15%/20%/25% wouldn't even cover the nerf in reconstruct power. It is down from ~450 to under 300...that would just be 6 AP spent (12 under old cost) for getting back 1/2 the difference that this nerf would result in.


The best solution is for them to stop proposing solutions for things that don't need fixing.

ThreeEyedBob
10-16-2012, 05:20 AM
*sigh* where do they pull this **** from?

I'm going to TR all my WF now and be done with them. It's just too many negatives compared to what you gain.

FrancisP.Fancypants
10-16-2012, 06:35 AM
The best solution is for them to stop proposing solutions for things that don't need fixing.

Well they have to do something to distract us from all the bugs that can't be managed.

Seriously though, I just looked over at my straw pile, and it's not really a pile anymore. Not even a handful.

nikos1313
10-16-2012, 06:43 AM
ok, so they will bork recon... SO WHAT? i dont see any1 complaining when they make something UBER for their class... but when something is borked, u r all goin nuts. i thought u WFs were the tough guyz here... recon will get borked. u learn to live with that. is it SO BIG DEAL for you? i bet that if they removed the penalty from Heal to the WFs, noone of u you complain, right? u would be happy about it! we cant have the devs gettin things better. they prolly have to bork things some times. arent we all the ones who complain that game is easy enough already?

MRMechMan
10-16-2012, 07:00 AM
ok, so they will bork recon... SO WHAT? i dont see any1 complaining when they make something UBER for their class... but when something is borked, u r all goin nuts. i thought u WFs were the tough guyz here... recon will get borked. u learn to live with that. is it SO BIG DEAL for you? i bet that if they removed the penalty from Heal to the WFs, noone of u you complain, right? u would be happy about it! we cant have the devs gettin things better. they prolly have to bork things some times. arent we all the ones who complain that game is easy enough already?

Well said. Except not really. There are a lot of overpowered things in this game (old ESOS, EiN, old wail etc) and I see plenty of cries to get those balanced. Many of them have. I have absolutely no problem if something gets nerfed and it is a good decision that brings balance to the game.

The difference is, reconstruct is not one of those things. The plethora of fleshie sorcs/wizards shows that...WF+reconstruct is powerful but by no means a no-brainer, particularly at true endgame when you have gear.

Reminds me of the time my evocation archmage got SLA magic missles/chain missles nerfed by doubling the sp cost AND cooldowns. Had me confused because while I enjoyed the character, it was by no means steamrolling content and most archmages were conjuration or necromancy or enchantment...and most wizards in general were palemasters anyway.

Nerfing a flavor build was just weird. Someone went out of their way to make my already flavorful/gimp build even moreso. They also took the fun out of it. Isn't that what a game is meant to be all about? Fun?

If recon was hitting for 800pts I would agree with this change but 400-450pts doesn't strike me as overpowered self healing, particularly when clerics/fvs can easily hit for 50%-100% more than that.

If they are going to treat them as equals in regards to spellpower, then treat them as equals with regard to amp and feats. Anything less than that is not right.

inggold
10-16-2012, 07:24 AM
Yay, another low blow to kick me out of this game.

I cannot fathom the reasoning behind it and would really like a dev response.

Heck, at this point I cannot fathom why I've kept VIP going to this point. Haven't been able to log on for 2 weeks or so with work and home life. Got a glimmer of hope that maybe challenges would be fixed someday, hang in there.... ooomph, take one in the groin.


It isn't Heal. It doesn't need this.

spectroum
10-16-2012, 07:40 AM
wow someone really hates WF out there...i mean really nerf them even more?? what next then...nerfing helf cleric dilly so we cant use heal scrolls without umd??

Devs grow up!

Tid12
10-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Can we leave the "This shucks, im quittin", "Im gonna drop VIP", "Devs sucks" and similar threats/offense out of this thread? Thanks.

Well we certainly know Eladrin saw this thread and deleted his comment. Can you at least give us the reasons, if there is something new coming like Repar amp line or Heal amp affecting recon too? Or nothing at all?

JOTMON
10-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Well we certainly know Eladrin saw this thread and deleted his comment. Can you at least give us the reasons, if there is something new coming like Repar amp line or Heal amp affecting recon too? Or nothing at all?

^This i find rude on Eladrin's part.

come on Eladrin...Stand by your comments or redact them as needed, but to delete the post and all traces of a Dev response like it never existed is just wrong.

Eladrin
10-16-2012, 01:04 PM
I've done some investigation into this issue.

Several experimental spell power coefficient changes ended up in the Update 16 Lamannia build - these are not intended to go live. I've reverted them all.

Missing_Minds
10-16-2012, 01:09 PM
I've done some investigation into this issue.

Several experimental spell power coefficient changes ended up in the Update 16 Lamannia build - these are not intended to go live. I've reverted them all.

Thank you, Eladrin.

Is it safe to assume Reconstruct will not be getting hit with the same ruling as Heal spell was? Or is the long term decision still being decided?

Scraap
10-16-2012, 01:16 PM
I've done some investigation into this issue.

Several experimental spell power coefficient changes ended up in the Update 16 Lamannia build - these are not intended to go live. I've reverted them all.

Glad to hear it. Since there apparently is a perceived need to keep refining it though, mind letting us know what you find problematic and why when you've a chance? No promises to agree, but if we know where you're coming from, at least future feedback would be relevant.

knockcocker
10-16-2012, 01:18 PM
I've done some investigation into this issue.

Several experimental spell power coefficient changes ended up in the Update 16 Lamannia build - these are not intended to go live. I've reverted them all.

Thanks for speaking up. Much appreciated.

Eladrin
10-16-2012, 01:25 PM
Thank you, Eladrin.

Is it safe to assume Reconstruct will not be getting hit with the same ruling as Heal spell was? Or is the long term decision still being decided?
At this time I see no need to modify Reconstruct. If repair amplification effects become commonplace, this may be revisited, but currently it's different enough from Heal (lacking the condition cures, for instance) that right now there's no need to change it.


Glad to hear it. Since there apparently is a perceived need to keep refining it though, mind letting us know what you find problematic and why when you've a chance? No promises to agree, but if we know where you're coming from, at least future feedback would be relevant.
Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

Scraap
10-16-2012, 01:47 PM
Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

I can see that, and I'm glad you folks are cognizant of the fact that most players really aren't content to healbot outside of emergencies. Guessing that would have been one of the reasons for fortification bypassing/debuffing: infrequent spike damage?

Postumus
10-16-2012, 01:53 PM
This is stupid. It's so stupid, my head hurts thinking about how stupid it is. So the DEV's were smoking weed, and now they're mainlining crack. What's next?

So now that Eladrin explained this was a coding error and that it will not go live, you want to back down off that ledge?

Tid12
10-16-2012, 02:07 PM
Finally, all this doom, threats and crying here and in general discussion can end.

Thanks for the answer Eladrin.

Xezrak
10-16-2012, 02:21 PM
At this time I see no need to modify Reconstruct. If repair amplification effects become commonplace, this may be revisited, but currently it's different enough from Heal (lacking the condition cures, for instance) that right now there's no need to change it.


Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

Thanks Eladrin,

However might I suggest that challenge doesn't always have to mean higher damage from monsters and higher hp to wack down, the latter which is almost just boring (keep hitting keys for a bit longer).

Instead for challenge may I suggest increase the number and verity of spells being cast by monsters and the various disables they have. One of the most tough encounters at level is the end fight in 'In the flesh' on Elite, one of the reasons for this is beholders disabling casting ability, plenty of stuns etc. Also increase the amount of co-ordination needed by the team, eg tiles/roids in Abbot, inferno in Abbot, The arrow rain thing in Lord of Blades etc.

scoobmx
10-16-2012, 02:23 PM
Thanks Eladrin,

However might I suggest that challenge doesn't always have to mean higher damage from monsters and higher hp to wack down, the latter which is almost just boring (keep hitting keys for a bit longer).

Instead for challenge may I suggest increase the number and verity of spells being cast by monsters and the various disables they have. One of the most tough encounters at level is the end fight in 'In the flesh' on Elite, one of the reasons for this is beholders disabling casting ability, plenty of stuns etc. Also increase the amount of co-ordination needed by the team, eg tiles/roids in Abbot, inferno in Abbot, The arrow rain thing in Lord of Blades etc.

i think abbot is an excellent raid. can we please have more raids that have puzzles that cannot be 1) brute forced or 2) solved using solver scripts
to this day it's still a very interesting and challenging raid, because the answer to it is not just 'm0ar dps and m0ar hjeals'

Ovrad
10-16-2012, 02:35 PM
i think abbot is an excellent raid. can we please have more raids that have puzzles that cannot be 1) brute forced or 2) solved using solver scripts
to this day it's still a very interesting and challenging raid, because the answer to it is not just 'm0ar dps and m0ar hjeals'

Nothing wrong with puzzles, but there's something wrong with puzzles that make you fail the whole raid because you had a split second of lag. Also, if you're gonna force the party to split, make it so the 3 parts take the same time to complete. Having to wait 10 mins for tiles to finish (or quite likely fail) isn't fun at all.

Scraap
10-16-2012, 02:35 PM
Instead for challenge may I suggest increase the number and verity of spells being cast by monsters and the various disables they have. One of the most tough encounters at level is the end fight in 'In the flesh' on Elite, one of the reasons for this is beholders disabling casting ability, plenty of stuns etc. Also increase the amount of co-ordination needed by the team, eg tiles/roids in Abbot, inferno in Abbot, The arrow rain thing in Lord of Blades etc.

Along those lines, I'm going to go ahead and suggest something likely incredibly unpopular. No fail on a 1 was a mistake, since that pretty much kills spike damage if you can build to fall off the dice.

Perhaps if they shifted that aspect to "and saves rolled above 10 automatically succeed", that'd parallel to some degree Improved Evasion's half-reflex-based-damage, while giving disintegrate and the like back it's teeth without requiring that mobs end up overinflated in order to bypass that restriction.

taurean430
10-16-2012, 02:45 PM
At this time I see no need to modify Reconstruct. If repair amplification effects become commonplace, this may be revisited, but currently it's different enough from Heal (lacking the condition cures, for instance) that right now there's no need to change it.


Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

Good to see you make an appearance in the thread :)

It's pretty clear what you guys are trying to do from what I've seen and experimented with insofar. Being stuck chain casting excepting any other actions is a concern of mine as well as I love playing divine classes.

I'm not sure what can be done beyond what has so far, as it appears player choice in building and playstyle affect these issues moreso than any other factor. Is it possible to take another look at PRR to see if that can be tweaked a bit? I only ask because it's been my experience that some players will make investments in gear if they see a noticeable difference when running harder content.

MeliCat
10-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Oh what a relief. I thought you were trying to wipe robots from the game or something there for a moment. Lub ma little robots.

Faent
10-16-2012, 03:58 PM
So now that Eladrin explained this was a coding error and that it will not go live, you want to back down off that ledge?

My fury has subsided. But it was perfectly reasonable to think this was intended. A DEV (MadFloyd) already stated that Reconstruct *was* going to go the way of Heal. It's good to see this decision has been revisited.


I've done some investigation into this issue.

Several experimental spell power coefficient changes ended up in the Update 16 Lamannia build - these are not intended to go live. I've reverted them all.

Thank you!


At this time I see no need to modify Reconstruct. If repair amplification effects become commonplace, this may be revisited, but currently it's different enough from Heal (lacking the condition cures, for instance) that right now there's no need to change it.

And thank you again. For the record, it is currently not trivial to Reconstruct in Epic Elite content. To be effective, you need both Reconstruct and a Repair loaded, and you need to be slotting a Reconstruction item. This is *in addition* to Reconstruct scrolls. Arcanes are already fairly low on the HP totem pole these days. Epic Hard challenges nobody. And a Reconstruct nerf would seriously gimp WF arcanes in Epic Elite content. It is not even close to overpowered in the current endgame.

tasebro
10-16-2012, 04:03 PM
At this time I see no need to modify Reconstruct. If repair amplification effects become commonplace, this may be revisited, but currently it's different enough from Heal (lacking the condition cures, for instance) that right now there's no need to change it.


Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

Props for at least admitting *what* you guys did, and *why* you made your choice; but there are no "healing characters": simply Do Not Exist....that comment is a revelation of a default mindset that is *part* of the problem that resulted in divine caster output arbitrarily getting nerfed 50% in MOTU.

The fact remains that you devs made the short-sighted decision to *break* existing, workable (Heroic) content in order to accommodate your otherwise broken (Epic) MOTU content, and default to prop up the lowest common denominator; that was a *bad* design decision, based on *bad* initial assumptions, supported with *bad* non-justifications, resulting in *bad* (not unforseeable) consequences.

Drop the institutional "healing characters" mindset;
Recognize the detrimental results of that myopic mindset;
Reverse the MOTU 50% nerf of divine caster output.
Restore full divine caster ability;
Cease attempts at denial of *full* player contribution for players who play divine casters---at *all* levels of play, INCLUDING heroic level play;

Credinus
10-16-2012, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the clarification Eladrin, it's great to hear that this isn't something intended to go into live for now. Echoing Faent's post, the primary reason we all reacted so quickly on this is because there was indeed a post from another dev during the U15 preview stating that Reconstruct was going to be changed in this manner, which spawned huge mega-threads decrying it; seeing it get in place had us all assuming that the change was entirely intentional based on that. Personally, I've resubscribed after hearing this since the only character I enjoy playing anymore is a WF Evocation AM and this change would've ruined me. On a related note, seriously, where did the feedback/survey form go for subscription cancellation?



As far as improving difficulty, I agree with everyone saying that upping monster damage isn't always the best bet, and generally isn't a good one at all. Things like healing curses, the reduced healing effects in the Demonweb, anti-magic zones, etc. are a great way to counter uber heals without making monsters so absurdly powerful that they'll 1-2 shot everyone in the party. I'd love to see more of these approaches, rather than simple mob power ramping.

Postumus
10-16-2012, 07:36 PM
My fury has subsided. But it was perfectly reasonable to think this was intended. A DEV (MadFloyd) already stated that Reconstruct *was* going to go the way of Heal.

Yeah, I saw his quoted post in another thread... Maybe the wiki... So I still have some lingering doubts whether this was intended all along or really an error. :-P

azrael4h
10-16-2012, 07:46 PM
Nothing wrong with puzzles, but there's something wrong with puzzles that make you fail the whole raid because you had a split second of lag. Also, if you're gonna force the party to split, make it so the 3 parts take the same time to complete. Having to wait 10 mins for tiles to finish (or quite likely fail) isn't fun at all.

Yeah, I don't mind puzzles of any kind, and do quite well with them. However, make sure the entire party has something to do. No matter what, it's boring to have one person do a puzzle, and everyone else stand around twiddling their thumbs.

Take an approach where one person needs to work out a puzzle, and another group infiltrate a base. If they go too fast, then they get a different fight than if the puzzle gets done. Sorta Magic Candle-ish I guess. If I wasn't exhausted I could articulate it better.

Entelech
10-17-2012, 10:29 AM
Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.

Bah. Just add another few zeroes to the critter's hitpoint total and call it good, just like you've always done before. We'd hate to ask the content team to be clever.

There's a fundamental flaw in the thought process you outlined above:

PC Clerics are already an endangered species in DDO. If they're unable to do anything but chain those "huge efficient heals" together, then you nerf those "huge efficient heals", they can do NOTHING.

Entelech
10-17-2012, 10:35 AM
Oh...and I do have an example of a quest that I feel is well-designed to challenge a party:

The Lost Thread.

The Drow are not stupidly overpowered in that quest, but they position archers defensively and place magical traps along the approaches to said archers.

Hmm, FINALLY a fantasy race with a bonus to Intelligence that actually uses rudimentary REAL WORLD DEFENSIVE TACTICS. Thumbs up.

Lord_Darquain
10-17-2012, 10:57 AM
So if recon is nerfed like Heal, does Healing Amp apply to repair spells now?

sephiroth1084
10-17-2012, 11:31 AM
Heal and Reconstruct are on the "watch list" of sorts because in general, huge efficient heals can be a problem when the content team is trying to challenge a party. Often monster damage increases to compensate so they can remain a threat, but this tends to lead to an undesirable power spiral where as monster damage increases, healing characters eventually become unable to do anything but chain those huge efficient heals together.
I'll also add that this "power spiral" is also part of the reason that there is such a gulf between characters with good self-healing (casters) and those without--the game gets balanced to assume you have someone that can throw out 300, 400, 500 hundred point Heals, so when you don't have someone doing that, you can't compensate with potions.

Not a dig against the devs here, but against all the people that complain about seeing Heal nerfed.

azrael4h
10-17-2012, 03:11 PM
Oh...and I do have an example of a quest that I feel is well-designed to challenge a party:

The Lost Thread.

The Drow are not stupidly overpowered in that quest, but they position archers defensively and place magical traps along the approaches to said archers.

Hmm, FINALLY a fantasy race with a bonus to Intelligence that actually uses rudimentary REAL WORLD DEFENSIVE TACTICS. Thumbs up.

They also use enslaved villagers as an added defense, though the result was a bit lame, a minor bonus xp instead of something real. No reason to not obliterate them. But I guess that's DDO.

Scraap
10-17-2012, 04:35 PM
I'll also add that this "power spiral" is also part of the reason that there is such a gulf between characters with good self-healing (casters) and those without--the game gets balanced to assume you have someone that can throw out 300, 400, 500 hundred point Heals, so when you don't have someone doing that, you can't compensate with potions.

Not a dig against the devs here, but against all the people that complain about seeing Heal nerfed.

Well, to use a sound engineering analogy, it's not so much an amplitude problem as a frequency one. Of course, this late in the game cycle, we've been overly conditioned to expect it quick and immediate, so I'm not really sure how they could paint themselves out of that corner without causing even more rage.

taurean430
10-17-2012, 05:07 PM
I'll also add that this "power spiral" is also part of the reason that there is such a gulf between characters with good self-healing (casters) and those without--the game gets balanced to assume you have someone that can throw out 300, 400, 500 hundred point Heals, so when you don't have someone doing that, you can't compensate with potions.

Not a dig against the devs here, but against all the people that complain about seeing Heal nerfed.

How is this any different than a character with moderate to good healing amp drinking a silver flame pot or umd'ing a heal scroll?

The problem is that players badger other players into playing healbots instead of taking on some of the responsibility for their own hp. I've played with you a number of times and know that is not the case with you personally, but I see it all the time.

You can now build a fvs to do somewhat respectable damage with light/untyped/instakill. The problem persists with other players having a fit because they actually put action points into their smiting lines.

sephiroth1084
10-17-2012, 08:03 PM
Well, to use a sound engineering analogy, it's not so much an amplitude problem as a frequency one. Of course, this late in the game cycle, we've been overly conditioned to expect it quick and immediate, so I'm not really sure how they could paint themselves out of that corner without causing even more rage.
It's a problem with both actually.

How is this any different than a character with moderate to good healing amp drinking a silver flame pot or umd'ing a heal scroll?

Well, the emphasis on SF pots stems from their being the only source of instantaneous big heals for non-casters. It should have alarms ringing like crazy at Turbine to see so many people using, and even building toward, frequently potions that drop all of their stats by 10 points. That's a pretty big penalty, and yet they are considered to be one of the most important items in the endgame for an melee that can support them.

Heal scrolls, meanwhile, require heavy investment, have a moderate cooldown, are subject to Concentration failure, aren't super-cheap, and don't heal for as much as either SF pots or the actual spell being cast.

My issue isn't with the consumables, but the direction the game has taken for these to be mandatory, especially SF pots. But it's more to do with the ability of healers to hit a whole party for 400-800 every 2 or 3 seconds, and to spot heal for 600+. How do you design an encounter that poses a threat to such parties? The devs have done so by giving monsters huge attack and damage bonuses, by stripping away some of our Fortification protection, by including some form of healing curse in a lot of big encounters.

But after you've tuned the game to challenge those groups, how do you accommodate the parties that don't have a healer? The game isn't flexible enough to be balanced for both, and even if it could be, it probably shouldn't be skewed too heavily to the groups without healers, or we'll end up in a situation similar to what we have with downward dungeon scaling, where it becomes more profitable to play into the scaling, in this case by running in groups without healers. It's a delicate balance between 'challenging for groups with healers' and 'challenging to groups without healers that have otherwise strong healing resources or defenses.'

bibimbap
10-17-2012, 08:48 PM
Thank you so much! Now I can happily be a robot that kills dragons! ^^

taurean430
10-18-2012, 01:17 AM
They also use enslaved villagers as an added defense, though the result was a bit lame, a minor bonus xp instead of something real. No reason to not obliterate them. But I guess that's DDO.

Yep.

Hate to say it but I'd actually be content at this point putting in a failure condition for killing x number of villagers. Having pugged this recently with crowd control specialists, I was thrown by everyone running ahead and just killing villagers.

every. single. one.

Entelech
10-18-2012, 02:26 AM
I DO kind of wonder why the Temple of Mystra was constructed with a whole bunch of slave holding cells controlled by levers, but she DID have the bad taste to sleep with Elminster, so...

sephiroth1084
10-18-2012, 03:00 AM
Yep.

Hate to say it but I'd actually be content at this point putting in a failure condition for killing x number of villagers. Having pugged this recently with crowd control specialists, I was thrown by everyone running ahead and just killing villagers.

every. single. one.
Agreed. Always thought it was dumb. Even more so that even in groups that do make an effort to save slaves, once you have gotten all of your bonus XP freeing X number, the rest become expendable.

At the very least there should be a (sizable) bonus for not letting any slaves die.

azrael4h
10-18-2012, 04:01 AM
Yep.

Hate to say it but I'd actually be content at this point putting in a failure condition for killing x number of villagers. Having pugged this recently with crowd control specialists, I was thrown by everyone running ahead and just killing villagers.

every. single. one.

Maybe not an outright failure condition, but enough of a reason to put forth the effort that it's more worthwhile to save them. Right now there's almost no reason to save them, given the time advantages of just slaughtering them. You can about run the quest again.

Maybe implement a XP penalty when killing off NPCs that could be saved? Say up to 25%?

Kinerd
10-19-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm not saying Eladrin is a liar, and I appreciate his posts in this thread. Let me start with that.

-This isn't the first time a blatant nerf has been waved off as "unintentional" or an "error" after community outrage.
-It won't be the first time a less blatant, conciliatory nerf replaces a proposed blatant nerf. (And I have no doubt a Reconstruct nerf is still coming.)

Remember Chattering Rings turning into Purified Eberron Shards? Does anyone really think that any dev anywhere would seriously include Chattering Rings as a crafting ingredient? If Turbine were that much of idiots, they wouldn't be able to operate the door knob to get into work in the morning. It may be arguably less respectful to accuse them of constantly lying to and manipulating us, but what other conclusion can I reasonably draw?

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

Postumus
10-19-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm not saying Eladrin is a liar, and I appreciate his posts in this thread. Let me start with that.

-This isn't the first time a blatant nerf has been waved off as "unintentional" or an "error" after community outrage.
-It won't be the first time a less blatant, conciliatory nerf replaces a proposed blatant nerf. (And I have no doubt a Reconstruct nerf is still coming.)

Remember Chattering Rings turning into Purified Eberron Shards? Does anyone really think that any dev anywhere would seriously include Chattering Rings as a crafting ingredient? If Turbine were that much of idiots, they wouldn't be able to operate the door knob to get into work in the morning. It may be arguably less respectful to accuse them of constantly lying to and manipulating us, but what other conclusion can I reasonably draw?

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Napoleon Bonaparte

Dandonk
10-19-2012, 06:28 PM
"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Napoleon Bonaparte

But I am not sure which alternative scares me the most.

WolfSpirit
10-20-2012, 06:33 PM
Still little help the poor ailing Warforged...
I mean, EVEN magical diseases and Poisons need a Circulatory system!
I mean, Mummy rot? REALLY?
The same Larva that gestates in an organic brain surviving in the dry/oil/wood/ enchanted Head of a Warforged?
I know its Fantasy, but it also contains Logic within the Fantasy one would hope!
:sniff:
I /cry for my Warforged....