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Worldcrafter
09-22-2012, 02:50 PM
People have most likely been saying it ever since paladins could get to level four - they want the mount. Not everyone, perhaps, but it is an iconic aspect of paladins, and so far the only arguments I have seen against it have been people pointing out the ill-logic of having a horse in a dungeon. 3rd and 3.5 work around this by having it a summoned celestial steed, making it a bit easier to bring through narrow places. Or just play a halfling on a riding dog.

But, for DDO, Druids and the Epic Destinies have opened a few doors that could actually bring the game closer to implementing a paladin's mount. The druid's forms are the first step; a toggle ability that calls forth the mount. The graphic changes from paladin on foot, to paladin on a warhorse. Though with scaling, I suppose it would be a warpony for halflings - unless the programmers and art sections put in that little extra effort to give them wardogs to ride, that would be awesome in my book.

When the "mount" toggle is activated, the paladin gains a movement speed boost, possibly a small bonus to hit or something akin to that. Feel free to discuss other bonuses that you think would be appropriate. Additionally, while the ability is active, the paladin can use "Mounted Combat" spells, much like a druid's various "form" spells.

I've only got two spells in mind at the moment; the first is a charge attack, inspired from the Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack ability. When you pop this charge, the paladin gains +1[W] and attacks all enemies they pass through. Alternately, maybe a +2[w], but also adds an AC penalty for 10 or 12 seconds, to balance out the rush. The second spell is having the horse kick and stomp, possibly doing bludgeoning damage in a small radius around the mount.

Now, here's the rub - balancing issues. You never want to make an ability that's so desirable that everyone wants it all the time, to a point of exclusion. Giving pallies more speed and some extra firepower with some mounted spells is nice, but there should be some drawbacks to it, and keep grounded paladins a viable option.

A tremendous penalty to Sneak and Move Silently comes to mind (-10 or -20), but that's not very off-setting for speed, increased damage potential, and possibly more stuff; quite simply, there aren't a lot of areas that require sneaking, and paladins in full plate aren't the best for sneaking. An AC/PRR reduction might fit (perhaps loosely claiming you're spending time protecting the mount as well as yourself), but seems counter-intuitive to the very nature of a paladin. I have not played a high-level paladin, so I don't know if they use a lot of spell casting; therefore, I don't know if a longer spell cool down is appropriate for being on a mount. I suppose if you get tripped or knocked down while on a mount, it could cancel the ability and cause additional damage (+1d6 or +2d6, something like that) or additional downtime.

Ah well; this is just my initial suggestions, without much polish or thought at the moment. What do you think would be good boons or drawbacks that would make having a mount fair?

countfitz
09-22-2012, 03:29 PM
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't think Paladins are one of the two weakest classes, mostly because they were balanced in PnP based on having a mount in the first place, and DDO gave them nothing in its place.

With that in mind, great suggestion on top, you do NOT need any drawback for this. It would just make paladins a good choice to play, not a flavor choice.

/signed

fmalfeas
09-22-2012, 07:44 PM
Or they could even take from 2nd edition, where it didn't have to be a celestial warhorse. The paladin in 2nd edition went on a quest to earn the favor of some mount he favored. If he succeeded, he bound with it as his mount, and it got more powerful in exchange for serving him.

Some paladins even waited until high level to seek a mount, and got themselves a young dragon.

Basically, if the paladin can ride on it, it can be a mount. But he doesn't have to /be/ riding it. So in a dungeon, maybe you're not riding your horse...maybe it's next to you, caving in orc skulls with its hooves.

That's right, Paladin is a pet class.

LeoLionxxx
09-22-2012, 09:43 PM
Druid-style shapeshift to be mounted in combat is a REALLY good idea and I tip my hat off to you for suggesting it.

I'm thinking free pally feat at around level 12, 15 or so. The 'Summon warhorse' (shapeshift) would be usable once per rest and maybe ~20 SP to activate. The once per rest would be because if you die, it makes sense that your warhorse would be killed too. Alternativly, it could be on Lay-on-hands or holy smite charges.

For penalties, a minus to reflex would be ideal, since you're on a big, bulky horse.

Graphiclly, there might be a bit of a snag: HOW would it have you attacking enemies whe you're way up on your horse? How would you attack enemies that are right in front of you? How would you block?
One idea is to have it convert your weapon(s) to a spear, in which case the damage would be converted to peircing which might make it less-fun. Attack animation would be boring as well, since you're just stabbing over and over, not much room for variation. Would tripping just be moving the spear a certin way? I don't even want to think about cleave. Any ideas about that?

In other aspects about the appearence, Perhaps the feat would have various versions that are diffrent colours (for flavor). I'm not sure it would be be practical to display the armour you're wearing on the horse. I'm thinking a special-riding armour would appear on you (purely cosmetic, you'de still gain your armour's benefits). OR the devs might figure out how to have it your own armour, but it would be quite a job so we gotta cut them some slack. Hair and face might ba a little easier or it might not - I obviously don't know That much about how they desighn the game.
My sister pondered to me about climbing ladders too. Druids, they get this magical-swishilly aura and appear humanoid. I'm thinking for mounted paladins, when they approach the ladder the horse just dissapears and you climb normally. Then, at the top, your horse just reapears. This could be simply explaind as "it's a magic horse" so it teleporst back to you :D


Other than issues with attack animation, I really like this idea and I really belive it could and can be done.

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 01:37 AM
I am not opposed to paladins going on a special quest to get their mount, but DDO does try to keep some roots with 3rd and 3.5. 3rd simplified the matter by making it assumed that the paladin shows their devotion to their deity and worthiness by achieving higher levels in the class. But delving more on this idea, how would the quest be added to the game? A solo mission seems most appropriate, but no other class has such a dedicated mission to get any of their abilities.

The concept of paladin being a pet class is interesting, and one I had not pondered before. I still think the toggle would be a better approach at this point in time, because I believe a lot of people would want to ride the steed more then having it as another companion to fight beside you. What could be very interesting would be a union of both ideas, being able to have it fight alongside you and then jumping on top of it to ride around (Ogres on rust monsters, anyone?) but that may be a bit much so soon for this fledgling idea. However, I am more then willing to discuss possibilities for any of the ideas mentioned.

With the idea of conjuring the warhorse, I was initially thinking just like the druid toggle, pay a small amount of SP each time it is turned on. However, after hearing LeoLionxxx's proposal, I think I would agree a 1/rest would be a good idea, but waive the SP cost. I do not think that paladins get Echoes of Power when low on SP, and so their small pool limits how much they can use Mounted Combat, and this would help cover the amount. Additionally, higher levels of paladin could allow the mount to be used more times a day, similar to a barbarian getting more rages. I could easily see 3 uses a rest for a high level paladin, in case of something going wrong in a quest.

With the graphics issues of combat, I could see a possible resolution - while standing still, the horse and rider are facing forward. When you begin to swing, the horse cants to one side, possibly tilted to the left while you swing forward/partially to the right. Even two weapon fighting could be considered, with a thrust attack made by the off hand. This can graphically allow you to still fight enemies ahead of you. Cleave and Greatcleave could be the horse rearing up, and then crashing down as the rider slashes to the side. A trip could be a downward thrust of the weapon, as if the rider's aiming low - or the horse could stomp on an enemy's foot, give a low kick or something.

Of course, seeing a paladin with a spear or perhaps even a lance could be fun as well. It could even use the same mechanics for damage that the druid's forms do - you get the form's damage dice and crit range, but weapon properties carry over. As for the basic attack animation, although the head of a spear or point of a lance is the focus of the weapon, the shaft can still be used to strike enemies. It's not ideal, but could add variation to the attack process.

As far as aesthetics and different options for how the horses look, I would love to see that ability added. I am all for adding more customizations for players to choose from, and advocate giving pet classes options for special class feats at first level to determine their pet's type. However, right now I think giving them a uniform look would give this idea a better shot at being seriously considered. Personally, I would even settle for the riders getting a uniformed look if coding got wonky putting the paladins on the mounts; they could claim that the paladin also gets "divine armor" if that happened, some heavy full plate, maybe silvery-white with gold highlights. It wouldn't be ideal, but I'd be willing to tolerate it to see the paladins get their mounts in action.

I would have to agree with the idea that paladins "revert to normal" when interacting with objects and climbing things. Instead of being swirled with leaves, they get "divine light" shining around them. Maybe a gold or silver aura with little wisps or beads of light swirling around them. And I am rather amused at referring to the mount being a magical horse - because in 3.5 it is, in a way. The paladin can call their celestial steed from its home plane and send it back as they desire. So, if they did come across an area normally too small or steep for a paladin's mount, poof! It goes away, until they get to an area where there is more room. I could see the interaction morphing being a simple nod to that aspect, while maintaining functionality in the game.

Uska
09-23-2012, 06:08 AM
No thanks to wasting dev time there is no need for mounts and the last thing I want is another pet with a dumb AI cluttering my screen and in nearly 40 years of playing dnd including paladins I think the number of paladins I saw who used their mount was under 10 with zero in dungeon crawl games like ours most of those mounts usually died horribly due being left some to close to monsters while we did our questing.

Uska
09-23-2012, 06:13 AM
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't think Paladins are one of the two weakest classes, mostly because they were balanced in PnP based on having a mount in the first place, and DDO gave them nothing in its place.

With that in mind, great suggestion on top, you do NOT need any drawback for this. It would just make paladins a good choice to play, not a flavor choice.

/signed

I don't think of my paladin as weak at all and yes he is a first lifer and horrors a drow I see no need for a mount especially with all the suggestions on how to make work I see in this thread they seem strange to me well the shape shifting one does and it sounds like a lot of dev time that wouldn't be with it the paladin isn't a pet class!



I have never seen a gm balance because of a paladins mount or a ranger's pet both are fairly weak and die easily Druid pets can be another story

LeoLionxxx
09-23-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't think of my paladin as weak at all and yes he is a first lifer and horrors a drow I see no need for a mount especially with all the suggestions on how to make work I see in this thread they seem strange to me well the shape shifting one does and it sounds like a lot of dev time that wouldn't be with it the paladin isn't a pet class!

Thanks for your feedback on this. I think we can move past the idea of paladin being a pet-class and instead focus on mount-toggling. Now yes, there is the question of: Why should the devs take the time, money and effort to give Paladins their mounts. Well, it's my opinion that it would be able to breath the life back into paladins in popularity, and perhaps even increase DDO's rep by saying "we're giving paladins their long awaited celestial steeds" and pepole will say: "oh cool, now I want to play DDO, and perhaps throw money at them so that I get to ride a horse". (okay, WOW and maybe LOTHRO has steeds, but that's beside the point).

This also got me thinking: Should the warhorse be a thing that all paladins will not want, but all paladins need? Some pepole will not like the idea of having their pally on a horse, so we don't want a non-horsed paladin to be seen as 'gimped becuase you don't ride a horse'. So, We should make the war-horse ability good, but not as powerfull as to change the balance of power too much. You think paladin isn't a gimped class, I am of the same opinion. Doing this, plus not making it too powerfull, will help others to see the same and reaslise paladin is NOT a throw-away class.




I am not opposed to paladins going on a special quest to get their mount, but DDO does try to keep some roots with 3rd and 3.5. 3rd simplified the matter by making it assumed that the paladin shows their devotion to their deity and worthiness by achieving higher levels in the class. But delving more on this idea, how would the quest be added to the game? A solo mission seems most appropriate, but no other class has such a dedicated mission to get any of their abilities.


With the graphics issues of combat, I could see a possible resolution - while standing still, the horse and rider are facing forward. When you begin to swing, the horse cants to one side, possibly tilted to the left while you swing forward/partially to the right. Even two weapon fighting could be considered, with a thrust attack made by the off hand. This can graphically allow you to still fight enemies ahead of you. Cleave and Greatcleave could be the horse rearing up, and then crashing down as the rider slashes to the side. A trip could be a downward thrust of the weapon, as if the rider's aiming low - or the horse could stomp on an enemy's foot, give a low kick or something.

Of course, seeing a paladin with a spear or perhaps even a lance could be fun as well. It could even use the same mechanics for damage that the druid's forms do - you get the form's damage dice and crit range, but weapon properties carry over. As for the basic attack animation, although the head of a spear or point of a lance is the focus of the weapon, the shaft can still be used to strike enemies. It's not ideal, but could add variation to the attack process.



Going on a special quest to get the war-horse is a fun, but impractical idea. pepole would camplain that paladins get their own special quest, and some pepole that would play said paladins wouln't want to bother with even a 5-miniut quest. Auto-granted feat a a certin level is the way to go (unless any more good ideas come to the table).

I can subscribe to this method of mounted paladins attacking. With this, they might not even need to have the weapons converted to shaft-weapons. Graphiclly resizing the wepons is an idea; like how a half-orc's greatsword is bigger than a humans. However, it might be simpler to make it a uniform weapon, just to make it simpler to animate (and attacking with a dagger on horse-back would look funny :D).

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 11:44 AM
Whether or not paladins are weak is a separate debate, one fought across the forums in other threads. It is not what makes me ask for a paladin's mount or submitting the ideas that might make it functional in DDO. To me, the point is that the ability is an iconic one for paladins, and that adding it may offer further diversity to paladin builds and methods of play.

While I have not been playing for 40 years, I have seen a wide diversity in characters and classes. The majority of paladins I have played with have used their mounts, and some have been absolutely devastating. Of course, if I am working off of personal experiences alone, then most elven characters are useless idiots played by narcissistic man-children whose ego far exceeds their capabilities. But I understand that I must look beyond my own personal experiences, realizing that experiences of others are not the same as my own. Despite my experience of someone trying to play a level 1 elf charging 20 orc archers and trying to maintain a defensive stance, then wonder why they became a pin cushion, I am certain there are players out there who have played or partied with much more intelligent, mature, and interesting elves.

As I have said in my opening post, I fully agree with making the mount desirable, but not too desirable. There has to be an achievable balance so that a paladin on a mount is viable, and offers good balance, but not completely overshadow those who choose not to use it.

Current ideas in circulation for possible drawbacks:
- Sneak/Hide penalty, either -10 or -20 (Most likely -10)
- Longer Spell Cool down
- Reflex penalty, -2.
- AC penalty, though I still think this is counter-intuitive for the class.

The idea of getting dismounted on a trip or knockdown should probably be scrapped if the paladin can use the mount a limited times per rest.

And dagger combat on horseback would probably be hilarious to see.

Ralmeth
09-23-2012, 12:07 PM
Having played a Paladin in DDO for over 6 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on this:

The issues I see are:
1) The quest designs don't have mounts in mind. There's tons of jumping, swimming, dungeon crawling, etc. and I think a mount would only realistically be useful in an outdoor setting; explorer areas, and any outdoor quests, Though the only time I've really wanted my Paladin mount was when I was running through the King's Forest...it seemed kind of wrong that traveling long distances in the wilderness I should have to run

2) If the developers add mounts for Paladins, it would only be fair to give everyone a mount...Fighters should be able to use warhorses, anyone should be able to use a riding horse (well, except warforged who would need some kind of cool warforged mount).

So why wouldn't I want my Paladin to have his mount? Sure, it would be awesome! However I would be surprised if the amount of developer time required to do this right would have a justifiable ROI. Instead, if developers could spend time enhancing Paladins, they need to rework the enhancements to bring them up to the current game, though I expect they'll want to do that with the enhancement pass.

Karavek
09-23-2012, 12:11 PM
I don't think of my paladin as weak at all and yes he is a first lifer and horrors a drow I see no need for a mount especially with all the suggestions on how to make work I see in this thread they seem strange to me well the shape shifting one does and it sounds like a lot of dev time that wouldn't be with it the paladin isn't a pet class!



I have never seen a gm balance because of a paladins mount or a ranger's pet both are fairly weak and die easily Druid pets can be another story

I am sorry but your only hurting any cred you might have coming from the table top when you talk about your group as if it was run by an incompetent GM and your group lacked any common sense to make use of hirelings, henchmen, followers, and companions.

In 3e+ the paladins mount is not a sacrifice in the making, but a powerful ally that with the right feats can actually surpass the paladin himself in power. Even young dragons show up on the list for improved mounts. Not to mention a clever wizard ally with a polymorph other spell can always keep a pallies mount adapted to whatever current challenge they face.

Likewise for rangers it takes nothing more then a minor magical item called a ring of animal friendship to be capable of a animal ally fully equal to a druids as the HD number stacks with the characters natural spell ability. In 3.5 it actually removed the spell, but also equalized out the druid and ranger one more effectively at the core.

Both are meant to always be roughly equal in base HD to the PC they are with same with a pallies mount now days.

A properly run campaign does not abuse a player for his class choice, and targetting a PCs animal companions vindicitively as your description implies to my way of thinking, only tells me you needed to join some RPGA convention games back in the good years to see unbiased DMing at work.

Finally a warhouse is not some big clumsy thing. Bucephalus, the famous war horse of alexander the great is a real world example, Silver of the lone ranger a fictional one, both are standards for what paladins in D&D expect and look forward to when running with one.

Kaiserkreuz
09-23-2012, 12:12 PM
Since mounts aren't implemented in ddo why not the devs give paladins some divine feats in compensation for the lost of special mount ability like what they did with rangers giving them their dual line of combat style free feats. Giving paladins to choose divine feats at 2, 6 & 12.

Example:
Divine Shield [Divine]
Benefit: As a standard action, spend one of your turn/ rebuke undead attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting it a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.

Since there are too many 3.5 divine feats to write in here so this is the list of them, http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/divine/?page_size=100

Or the devs could give paladins Celestial companion like the Holy Liberator prestige class instead of a special mount. But knowing how the game is and paladins are free class this is like wishing the impossible.

FranOhmsford
09-23-2012, 12:24 PM
Having played a Paladin in DDO for over 6 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on this:

The issues I see are:
1) The quest designs don't have mounts in mind. There's tons of jumping, swimming, dungeon crawling, etc. and I think a mount would only realistically be useful in an outdoor setting; explorer areas, and any outdoor quests, Though the only time I've really wanted my Paladin mount was when I was running through the King's Forest...it seemed kind of wrong that traveling long distances in the wilderness I should have to run

2) If the developers add mounts for Paladins, it would only be fair to give everyone a mount...Fighters should be able to use warhorses, anyone should be able to use a riding horse (well, except warforged who would need some kind of cool warforged mount).

So why wouldn't I want my Paladin to have his mount? Sure, it would be awesome! However I would be surprised if the amount of developer time required to do this right would have a justifiable ROI. Instead, if developers could spend time enhancing Paladins, they need to rework the enhancements to bring them up to the current game, though I expect they'll want to do that with the enhancement pass.

1. There are plenty of quests set outdoors:

Kobbie Assault
Archer Point
Redwillow's Ruins
Gladewatch Outpost
Gwylan's Stand
Stormcleave Outpost
The Last Stand
Desert Caravan
Diplomatic Impunity
Framework
Mired in Kobbies
Shipwrecked Spy

Plus a few with massive cavernous tunnels that a Mounted Warrior could easily ride through:

Misery's Peak
Splinterskull
Spawn of Whisperdoom
Rit Sac.
Running with the Devils {possibly}.

Then there's Explorer Zones like:

Korthos Island
Cerulean Hills
Tangleroot Gorge
Three Barrel Cove
Searing Heights
Sorrowdusk Isle
The Red Fens
Menechtarun
Vale of Twilight
Soami Gardens, Mount Reysalon and The Eerie Forest.

I'll miss out Waterworks, Orchard of the Macabre, The Sub, Amrath and Cannith Manufactory for various reasons.


2. Give Fighters a mount? Yes please!
Only this should be done by adding in Feat:- Riding: Land Based.
Paladins and Rangers receive free - Fighters, Barbs, Favoured Souls, Druids and Rogues can take from Lvl 1
Clerics and Artificers can take from Lvl 3
Wizards and Sorcs can take from Lvl 5
Monks CANNOT take.

Humans, H-Elves and Elves get Warhorse
Dwarves and Halflings get either Pony or Wardog
H-Orcs and Warforged - Erm?

From Lvl 20 the Devs could add in Riding: Airborne - Griffons, Hippogriffs, Pegasi, Dragons!

goodoldxelos
09-23-2012, 12:34 PM
This is a waste of manpower to implement, how about more paladin spells instead?

countfitz
09-23-2012, 12:57 PM
This is a waste of manpower to implement, how about more paladin spells instead?

The beauty of this suggestion is it builds on the Druid shapeshifting work that the devs spent YEARS working out, and using it for more than one class. They spent all that manpower working, and it's used on a single class.

HatsuharuZ
09-23-2012, 01:02 PM
The beauty of this suggestion is it builds on the Druid shapeshifting work that the devs spent YEARS working out, and using it for more than one class. They spent all that manpower working, and it's used on a single class.

It would be nice if they could use it for rangers, too.~


As for paladin mounts, I personally fell that feats like divine shield and divine might would be more practical for paladins.

countfitz
09-23-2012, 01:09 PM
I have never seen a gm balance because of a paladins mount or a ranger's pet both are fairly weak and die easily Druid pets can be another story


I am sorry but your only hurting any cred you might have coming from the table top when you talk about your group as if it was run by an incompetent GM and your group lacked any common sense to make use of hirelings, henchmen, followers, and companions.

...A properly run campaign does not abuse a player for his class choice, and targetting a PCs animal companions vindicitively as your description implies to my way of thinking, only tells me you needed to join some RPGA convention games back in the good years to see unbiased DMing at work.

This response.

Thank you.

Seriously, the Paladin mount is a huge deal to the Paladin, one of the many reasons, in PnP, the Paladin is considered a Tier II class (with fighters and barbs being strongly in Tier IV, if that). Of course, PnP is a completely different game, but it doesn't have to be.

On top of that, Uska's belief that he's never seen this in PnP... well, assume you've been playing since the game came out (version 3.0-3.5) and had a regular, weekly game year long, that's maybe 10 different GMs you could have had. Not much of a large pool of people.

In my TWO, just TWO PnP 3.0 groups I'd played with, a Paladin's mount was a HUGE deal. So, according to me, I could say I've never seen a PnP game not balanced with a Paladin's mount in mind.

Granted, a Paladin, in PnP, can get a Unicorn, Dragon or other crazy overpowered mount by end game. So... there's that. I mean, my wife's Unicorn mount, in PnP (we were just dating then, so girlfriend's...) was stronger than our Cleric, so basically... she had her character AND a cleric while I had a samurai with a really cool sword... :(

I made a poor choice in class.

That decision aside, in PnP, Paladins REALLY ARE BALANCED WITH MOUNTS IN MIND, and they got nothing in DDO to rebalance them.


Since mounts aren't implemented in ddo why not the devs give paladins some divine feats in compensation for the lost of special mount ability like what they did with rangers giving them their dual line of combat style free feats. Giving paladins to choose divine feats at 2, 6 & 12.

Example:
Divine Shield [Divine]
Benefit: As a standard action, spend one of your turn/ rebuke undead attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting it a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.

Since there are too many 3.5 divine feats to write in here so this is the list of them, http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/divine/?page_size=100

Or the devs could give paladins Celestial companion like the Holy Liberator prestige class instead of a special mount. But knowing how the game is and paladins are free class this is like wishing the impossible.

This makes my point. Rangers had something taken away from them, their pet, and got something in return. Paladins got something taken away, and got NOTHING in return.

Edit: I did have a counterpoint to my own argument, kinda: Basically, in PnP, Paladins also have to be Lawful Good, and GMs focus on this in balance as well, at least, again, good GMs. Whereas in DDO, the only drawback to this is Paladins take Chaotic and Unholy damage from a handful of mobs. Still... that's not too much of a counterpoint.

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 01:16 PM
I've already reflected on the fact that many dungeons have areas that are ill-suited to having a mount. I have contemplated on suggesting a mount be in town/wilderness area only, or making it accessible for certain quests that are more spacious. However, it is the special nature of a paladin's mount that lets me believe it could be added to any dungeon. As I have mentioned before, the celestial mount is summoned from its home plane, and can be sent back; this is per the rules for 3.5. We already resolved how paladins can interact and climb with things; I see no reason this couldn't be extended to swimming - the paladin reverts to its basic model, with a shimmering aura to indicate you'll go back to mount form outside of it.

While there are some missions that focus on swimming and jumping, there are many more that do not include either aspect. Therefor, I believe a mount would be a viable option for paladins who wish to use such an ability.

At this point in time, I cannot agree with the "if it's fair for the paladin, it's fair for all" approach. The mount is a special class ability unique to the paladin. It is one of the class features from 3.5, and the mount itself is special - again, celestial mount that can be summoned/dispelled, allowing the paladin to bring their mount into places normal horses could never reach. Claiming that other classes should have the same thing is like saying that other classes should rage, turn undead, have wild shape, and use spells, and that is the foundation for an entirely different debate.

Furthermore, while granting the mount ability to any class seems initially "fair," the idea is based off of the druid's wild shape, including form-specific spells to reflect the mounted abilities. As mentioned in my first post, two ideas immediately had sprung to mind, including a charge and a stomp. Non-casters would suffer from not having these available. And working the entire thing into feats would take more work then simply drawing from existing abilities.

I can agree that if the idea were accepted and worked on by DDO, it could give a platform for advocates who want mounts for others. If it did come to such a crossroads, I would encourage the paladin's mount offering more advantages - again, it is a special class feature - but this could possibly open the door for the Mount spell and other things to take place.

As far as flying mounts go, while I'm not opposed to them, I think a viable fly option for non-public areas would be required first. This seems more of a "bells and whistles" kind of idea to me, something to contemplate after the matter. For now, I think it would be more productive to focus on the initial idea and hammer out the flaws to make it more appealing for the DDO folks to actually consider.

In regards to Divine Feats, I feel that is a separate debate. The feats are not something exclusive to paladins, and this idea touches on a core paladin ability that does not use a feat slot. Please do not get me wrong, seeing divine feats in action could be something interesting to see, I just don't see the correlation between a class-granted ability and feat options. It doesn't feel like the ideas compete, where they would have to add either one or the other. They could very well add both a mount and divine feats, so to me, this feels somewhat out of place in this thread.

countfitz
09-23-2012, 01:17 PM
It would be nice if they could use it for rangers, too.~


As for paladin mounts, I personally fell that feats like divine shield and divine might would be more practical for paladins.

Yes, they would. But I think we should agree they need to be thrown a bone.

countfitz
09-23-2012, 01:22 PM
In regards to Divine Feats, I feel that is a separate debate. The feats are not something exclusive to paladins, and this idea touches on a core paladin ability that does not use a feat slot. Please do not get me wrong, seeing divine feats in action could be something interesting to see, I just don't see the correlation between a class-granted ability and feat options. It doesn't feel like the ideas compete, where they would have to add either one or the other. They could very well add both a mount and divine feats, so to me, this feels somewhat out of place in this thread.

Oh, oh, no.

I don't want to speak for the person that suggested divine feats, but IMO, I think we were saying Paladins should get an EXTRA feat slot for divine feats, at the level the paladin would USUALLY get a mount (4) and at the mount upgrade levels (11 and 17, if my PnP knowledge is correct). Not the option of divine feats he'd have to pick in favor of other feats.

At least that's how I saw the suggestion, and would agree to it. Otherwise, who's going to pick Divine Shield over Power Attack?

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 01:46 PM
Ah, I see. With that concept, yes, they could definitely compete with a mount ability, unless the mount offered some hefty returns. However, I took the opportunity to look over the divine feats in Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. Most of them already exist in a similar form - the AP abilities that let paladins and clerics burn turns to produce new effects. Having reviewed them, I still stand by my statement that I don't see mounts and the divine feats competing with one another. Instead, why not continue the trend and offer the missing feats as additional AP options?

Since I was breaking out the books, I pulled the PHB, and I double-checked the mount; seems my opening post was erroneous. 3.5 pallies get their mount at level 5, and the mount gains stat and ability increases at level 8, 11, and 15.

countfitz
09-23-2012, 01:59 PM
Since I was breaking out the books, I pulled the PHB, and I double-checked the mount; seems my opening post was erroneous. 3.5 pallies get their mount at level 5, and the mount gains stat and ability increases at level 8, 11, and 15.

So it only really makes sense to give paladins a special ability at level 5, and increase its power at 8, 11, and 15.

Kaiserkreuz
09-23-2012, 02:02 PM
What I said is like Paladin's should get extra divine feat slots for the lvls when you should get the special mount and it's upgrades like what the did to Rangers giving them both Combat Style lines in exchange for losing animal companion.

Rangers get at lvl 2 Rapid shot and Two-weapon fighting, at 6 Many shot and Improve Two-weapon fighting and at 11 Improve precise shot and Greater Two-weapon fighting.

So why not give Paladin's the same treatment they gave Rangers considering the class is quite short on the feat department and the game forces you to take up Toughness giving you 6 remaining feats or 7 if you are human. Plus they are also quite constricted on the stat department unlike other melee classes need to have at least 10 on Wis to use spells and have some CHA to boost resistances.

Divine feats aren't exclusive to Paladin's anyway but considering what clerics job in the game currently would you expect them to use their Turn undead to boost their melee damage, ac and etc considering they have limited amount of it unlike paladins and considering they are more like on healing in game currently.

At least by giving some free divine feats slots in exchange for the loss of the special mount would improve paladins in some way due to the class being feat and stat constricted.

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 02:34 PM
If DDO continued to forgo having mounts, then yes, I would agree that there should be compensation in some form or another. But would it be divine feats? As I have mentioned, many of them are already AP options. Divine Might, one of the proposed divine feats mentioned here, is an AP option boost, for both paladins and clerics. Furthermore, having to rip out the AP options to make them into special class feats seems a little clunky, especially with the enhancements pass somewhere in the future.

I feel this is straying from the original topic, however. The idea is to include the mount, and what players would think would be an appropriate set of bonuses and drawbacks that could make them desirable. So, I pose this question - what do you think would make a mount seem more desirable then the divine feats/progression notion, without being over the top and unbalancing?

Kaiserkreuz
09-23-2012, 02:51 PM
If mounts would ever be implemented it won't be just limited to paladin since other classes would wish also to have at least normal mounts or at least able to buy some. Considering most instances require jumping, climbing and some swimming it puts the question of the usefulness of mounts. In addition the development team would need to implement a mounted combat system since in D&D mounts aren't just a means of travel and knowing how DDO is and considering the Paladin class is free I won't set my hope high enough that they would get special mounts since we already have animal companions now why does the ranger class doesn't get them when originally they should have those. So I'm not expecting the devs to give free classes some nifty special abilities like animal companions and special mounts that's why I'm more on asking the next best solution for losing them on those classes.

JasonJi72
09-23-2012, 03:10 PM
If they ever incorporate mounts in this game, then yes Paladins should get the best mounts. I don't see it happening though.

Just give paladins a fvs archon shoulder cannon, and call it a day.

LeoLionxxx
09-23-2012, 03:17 PM
To clarify, we arn't suggesting adding 'mounts' to the game. We are talking about adding a magical horse that paladins would summon via druid-style shape-shifing. Through this, it would be like YOU were the horse and rider just like you're a bear/wolf.

In terms of WHY this should be added I already gave a point of veiw on this (other than being just awsome):


Thanks for your feedback on this. I think we can move past the idea of paladin being a pet-class and instead focus on mount-toggling. Now yes, there is the question of: Why should the devs take the time, money and effort to give Paladins their mounts. Well, it's my opinion that it would be able to breath the life back into paladins in popularity, and perhaps even increase DDO's rep by saying "we're giving paladins their long awaited celestial steeds" and pepole will say: "oh cool, now I want to play DDO, and perhaps throw money at them so that I get to ride a horse". (okay, WOW and maybe LOTHRO has steeds, but that's beside the point).


Edit: I hope some Dev comes through here and takes a look at this thread. Otherwise our fingures are bleeding for nothing.

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 03:48 PM
I have already covered several of the issues that discourage the addition of the paladin's mount.

- Climbing -
Much like the druid's animal form, the model gets a light blur aura and temporarily resumes its base form until they stop climbing.

- Swimming -
The light blur/temp model return could be adapted for swimming paladins.

- Jumping -
I didn't directly address this issue, so I will do so here. I'm even willing to forgo the fact that horses can clear some pretty high distances with a rider. For areas with a lot of jumping and whatnot, the paladin's mount might not be suited. It could be one of the restrictions we need to make the mount a more viable addition and ensure that it is not overpowered and too desirable. Turn it off for jumping, turn it on when you're not. Coupled with the idea of limited summons per rest, this could make popping the mount more of a tactical thing - do you activate the mount early, before the jumps and have an advantage with enemies up to that point, or save it for the section after the jumps?

- Mounted Combat -
I don't really see a need for this. The idea draws on the wild shape idea and just converts it to a paladin. Instead of looking like a wolf and having wolf mods, you look like a knight on horseback, with knight on horseback mods. You'd get a bonus to a few things, some penalties to balance it out, and some spells that are only usable in the form. Furthermore, they already have some riding monsters - look at the Droaam Calvary. They did not make special rules for that. The only issue I could see is if the horse got tripped, the graphics could be a bit messy with that, but I'm certain the programmers and art departments could figure out a satisfactory way to make it work if they wished.

- Everyone Should Get It -
But the paladin's mount is a special gift from their deity/religious philosophy, granted to them for their continued devotion and service. As mentioned before, in earlier versions of D&D, paladins had to go on a holy quest for their steed. I repeat, claiming that everyone should have a mount because a paladin may get one is akin to claiming everyone should have rage, or wild shape, or spell casting abilities.

Even if mounts were added, would you also suggest that a paladin's mount be the same, due to being unfair to others? No special features for it being a special, divine mount, that the paladin's faith reached down and gave them for their devotion? I am absolutely certain that there would be people advocating that a paladin's mount should be more special then others. I feel this argument is moot.

- Paladins are Free -
And your point? During the testing for Update 14, when DDO changed the whole poison and disease immunity, people railed about it for paladins and warforged most of all. The DDO crew listened to the players, what they had to say, and they rethought their initial ideas. Paladins, this free class, kept much of their immunities in tact, with some limited changes if I recall properly. Theirs was more solidly intact then that of warforged, the paid-for race. Do not despair and give up simply because the class is free. The Devs are listening, and they do care what we have to say. This idea might never get incorporated, and may simply fade away into the archived numbers of other posts before it - or it just may need a nudge of inspiration someone at DDO needs to get the ball rolling on something, be it mounts, divine feats, or something else. If we do not try, we will never know.

- Rangers and Animal Companions -
Perhaps the folks at DDO are already working on that idea, perhaps not. Maybe they are still wrestling with how to add them, since the Ranger's pet should not be as strong as a druid's pet, at least initially. There are suggestion threads on how people think DDO could incorporate them.

- Second Best Option -
Yes, I agree paladins should have alternatives if the DDO crew decides mounts are too much work or trouble to add. But you're not even giving the best option, actually adding the mount, a shot. And you leave my question unanswered - what do you think would be worth it, to pick the mount over the proposed divine feats? I'm not asking which is more feasible, which one people would like to see more, which one is more cannon, or whatever else - just, in your opinion, what bonuses and drawbacks would the mount need in order to be a better option then divine feats, and wouldn't be overboard?

kraaal
09-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Maybe make mounts a prestige line. That would mean you have to spend ap and lock you out of other prestige lines...just an idea that would bring balance but they would have to rejigger the enhancements..which they are doing anyway.
Make it kotc or hod both are a wee bit weak compared to stalwart line ( pally equivelent can't remember at the mo).

Dragonlover333
09-23-2012, 04:18 PM
I agree with most of what I've seen here so far, but I see no reason for there to be an issue with jumping. If, as someone said, the horse is part you, it would have a similar ability to jump. The only problem there that I can see would be if you have to grab the ledge and hoist yourself up to make it, but in that case you could have the divine-swirly-light thing happen, as they did with druids.One thing to consider is how this would be added when paladins are an existing class - many people would have this mount suddenly appear partway through their character.

LeoLionxxx
09-23-2012, 04:25 PM
Jumping -
I didn't directly address this issue, so I will do so here. I'm even willing to forgo the fact that horses can clear some pretty high distances with a rider. For areas with a lot of jumping and whatnot, the paladin's mount might not be suited. It could be one of the restrictions we need to make the mount a more viable addition and ensure that it is not overpowered and too desirable. Turn it off for jumping, turn it on when you're not. Coupled with the idea of limited summons per rest, this could make popping the mount more of a tactical thing - do you activate the mount early, before the jumps and have an advantage with enemies up to that point, or save it for the section after the jumps?


- Everyone Should Get It -
But the paladin's mount is a special gift from their deity/religious philosophy, granted to them for their continued devotion and service. As mentioned before, in earlier versions of D&D, paladins had to go on a holy quest for their steed. I repeat, claiming that everyone should have a mount because a paladin may get one is akin to claiming everyone should have rage, or wild shape, or spell casting abilities.

- Second Best Option -
Yes, I agree paladins should have alternatives if the DDO crew decides mounts are too much work or trouble to add. But you're not even giving the best option, actually adding the mount, a shot. And you leave my question unanswered - what do you think would be worth it, to pick the mount over the proposed divine feats? I'm not asking which is more feasible, which one people would like to see more, which one is more cannon, or whatever else - just, in your opinion, what bonuses and drawbacks would the mount need in order to be a better option then divine feats, and wouldn't be overboard?


These two points i'll haveto dissagree on. It really would be much too cumbersom to haveto toggle the horse just to jump around. And jumping is actually quite an important feature of the game. You jump over kobolds to escape a mob. You jump over a fire trap becuase you don't wanna wait on the rouge. We want this to be at least partially realistic, but not impractical. Not being able to use this simple game mechanic would be too much of a nerf.
Perhaps cutting jump skill in half or a # penalty would be more viable.

Everyone gets it? I think not.
1) I mentioned partially realistic but not impractical - How is a halfling rouge supposed to carry a steed around in their backpacks? I know they're 'magical, almost bottemless- able to hold 100 sets of armour', but a horse? Me thinks not. If everyone got one, they would all haveto be magical, and then what would be the point of giving paladins their own celestial steeds in the first place?

2) in order to obtain the horse (lets not think about dragons or unicrons ATM) what would they haveto do? Just have a Summoning item(?) in their backpack? Then everyone would want them and all of DDO would be questing on horse-back (druids and PMs excluding).

3)I'v seen complaints about how rangers are also not powerful. Perhaps we could give rangers horses too; I just like the idea of firing a bow from horse-back. But then, playing a ranger entitles a lot of jumpin around, which might not be practiacl on horse back.


As for the thing with the other divine feats, I think that would be overkill for adding to the paladin class. Stick Divine sheild into an epic destiny, or, make it an AP option. Lets, focus on the horse here and not try debating whether or not pallies should get multiple cool-game changing feats.

goodoldxelos
09-23-2012, 04:31 PM
The beauty of this suggestion is it builds on the Druid shapeshifting work that the devs spent YEARS working out, and using it for more than one class. They spent all that manpower working, and it's used on a single class.

What to apply the new shape-shifting mechanics to... let me think, how about the level 9 shapechange spell that isn't in the game!?? Also gaseous form would be cool.

I feel like this would end up being another gimpy useless pet running around adding nothing of value to my paladin unless your going to give me some amazing movement speed buff.

Zerg faster?

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 04:58 PM
When I heard about the jumping issue, I was assuming more of ledge jumping and platforming, like crossing a series of pipes to get from point A to point B. I was not taking into consideration jumping over traps or mobs; those, in my opinion, a horse would still be quite usable for. After all, a horse with rider can clear higher obstacles then a human alone can. Add in suspension of belief for a fantasy game, and I see no issue with horses jumping. I was simply trying to clarify or reach a happy medium for those who did think jumping with horses was an issue.

With "Everyone Should Get It," I was focusing on what was suggested by others, not personally suggesting that everyone should get it. If, in time, DDO went that way, I would not be opposed, but for right here and now, I think only paladins should get the ability because it is a class feature. And I agree - if everyone got it, what would be the purpose for paladins getting their special mount?

The last part with "Second Best Option" was more addressed to Kaiserkreuz, I apologize for any confusion on teh matter. Still, I extend the question to any who wish to seek to answer it.

As for existing paladins getting their mount ability, I would have to take a nod to the rogue's sudden inclusion of Trapmaking. Rogues did not start off with the ability to make traps or gather trap parts. An update came around - update 5, I believe? - and then Level 4+ rogues were suddenly getting trap parts on successful disables. I remember my gal and I were rather confused when her ranger/rogue started to pick them up, because we had not glanced at the release notes.

I believe we have already put to rest the idea of having the horse as a pet, and have been focusing on the original suggestion - it is a toggle effect, like a druid's shape change. Instead of a wolf, you graphically become knight on horseback. I would imagine a speed bonus would be one of the advantages it receives, but we haven't really delved much into the bonus mechanics to it. I had also suggested form-specific spells, going along with the idea of mounted combat.

Memnir
09-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Do Paladins need some help this game?
An emphatic yes.


Are mounts the help Paladins need in this game?
A resounding no.

Uska
09-23-2012, 06:45 PM
I am sorry but your only hurting any cred you might have coming from the table top when you talk about your group as if it was run by an incompetent GM and your group lacked any common sense to make use of hirelings, henchmen, followers, and companions.

In 3e+ the paladins mount is not a sacrifice in the making, but a powerful ally that with the right feats can actually surpass the paladin himself in power. Even young dragons show up on the list for improved mounts. Not to mention a clever wizard ally with a polymorph other spell can always keep a pallies mount adapted to whatever current challenge they face.

Likewise for rangers it takes nothing more then a minor magical item called a ring of animal friendship to be capable of a animal ally fully equal to a druids as the HD number stacks with the characters natural spell ability. In 3.5 it actually removed the spell, but also equalized out the druid and ranger one more effectively at the core.

Both are meant to always be roughly equal in base HD to the PC they are with same with a pallies mount now days.

A properly run campaign does not abuse a player for his class choice, and targetting a PCs animal companions vindicitively as your description implies to my way of thinking, only tells me you needed to join some RPGA convention games back in the good years to see unbiased DMing at work.

Finally a warhouse is not some big clumsy thing. Bucephalus, the famous war horse of alexander the great is a real world example, Silver of the lone ranger a fictional one, both are standards for what paladins in D&D expect and look forward to when running with one.

Still see no need or use in a dungeon crawling game such as this the AI for pets is poor and they would die here constantly no matter what you say in pnp it is likely different under the right gm but here beyond low levels the pets are annoying at best or possibly causing failures at worst plus the dev time for something that would benefit so few

Uska
09-23-2012, 06:47 PM
When I heard about the jumping issue, I was assuming more of ledge jumping and platforming, like crossing a series of pipes to get from point A to point B. I was not taking into consideration jumping over traps or mobs; those, in my opinion, a horse would still be quite usable for. After all, a horse with rider can clear higher obstacles then a human alone can. Add in suspension of belief for a fantasy game, and I see no issue with horses jumping. I was simply trying to clarify or reach a happy medium for those who did think jumping with horses was an issue.

With "Everyone Should Get It," I was focusing on what was suggested by others, not personally suggesting that everyone should get it. If, in time, DDO went that way, I would not be opposed, but for right here and now, I think only paladins should get the ability because it is a class feature. And I agree - if everyone got it, what would be the purpose for paladins getting their special mount?

The last part with "Second Best Option" was more addressed to Kaiserkreuz, I apologize for any confusion on teh matter. Still, I extend the question to any who wish to seek to answer it.

As for existing paladins getting their mount ability, I would have to take a nod to the rogue's sudden inclusion of Trapmaking. Rogues did not start off with the ability to make traps or gather trap parts. An update came around - update 5, I believe? - and then Level 4+ rogues were suddenly getting trap parts on successful disables. I remember my gal and I were rather confused when her ranger/rogue started to pick them up, because we had not glanced at the release notes.

I believe we have already put to rest the idea of having the horse as a pet, and have been focusing on the original suggestion - it is a toggle effect, like a druid's shape change. Instead of a wolf, you graphically become knight on horseback. I would imagine a speed bonus would be one of the advantages it receives, but we haven't really delved much into the bonus mechanics to it. I had also suggested form-specific spells, going along with the idea of mounted combat.
I hate the toggle idea even more than the pet idea it just feels wrong

Worldcrafter
09-23-2012, 08:16 PM
Let us take a moment to ignore that I have made no claim whatsoever that a paladin's mount was a great equalizer, and that it should be added to help balance game play. Let us step away from the main point behind the thread, finding a viable mechanism to add the paladin's mount, and analyze this "resounding no."

Why not? Why is the mount idea so adverse to the game, that it would do nothing significant for the paladin? Why can't we make it the thing "paladins need" to improve in the game, if this is what is the goal? What would a mount need to be "the thing" paladins need? Do paladins need more damage? Wouldn't the proposed mounted form spells provide that, grating +1[w] and such? Do they need more spells? Again, form spells would offer more spells. Please, enlighten me as to what flaws this idea brings about, what negative aspects of the concept that would be so detrimental to the paladin class. I would love to see if I could figure out a way that could appease naysayers into thinking that this could become a viable option.

As for the toggle idea, what would you propose otherwise? Not whether the mount should or shouldn't be added, but what mechanic would be better at this point in time to simulate it? Because if there is a better mechanic to represent a paladin's special mount at this point in time, I would love to hear it - and if it is indeed better, I will subscribe to it and support the idea as well. If you cannot, then this is the best idea at this point in time that can represent the ability.

LeoLionxxx
09-23-2012, 08:30 PM
I hate the toggle idea even more than the pet idea it just feels wrong

Think we scrapped having it a pet before we started disscussing it.

Yes, does seem like it would be awkward to toggle between mounted and not when hanging/climbing, but not sure what could be done to fix that. Guess just stick with 'it's a magical horse, it does what it wants'.



As for any issues with having the horse in an enclosed space, ex. a sewer as opposed to open wilderness areas, I don't see any problem. The horse, i'm thinking, would be a bit bigger than the druid bear form, a little thinner, and then the humanoid on its back. If you look at the bear on the screen, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a person on its back (celestial bears>Horses:D). So, sizing should not be an issue. In PnP, you wouldn't be able to take a riding horse into a small, underground area becuase, realistically, a horse would be afraid of it. But then here, Magic horse+MMO+Practicality=summon the horse ANYWHERE [sunglasses face]

axel15810
09-23-2012, 11:23 PM
I don't see how mounts would work as far as animation goes...it be a major pain to implement and would look cheesy I think because of how fast paced the combat is in DDO.

Personally I think they should boost paladins by making their aura better...I think they should basically double the bonuses their aura provides to saves/AC of nearby allies. And make it give PPR and maybe dodge bonuses as well to allies near them.

justhavinfun
09-24-2012, 04:51 AM
Bad enough that my halflings have to run around looking at the backsides of every other summons in the game. The last thing I want to be forced to look at is a horses backside. Although when you end up with a poorly played paladin in a group I guess you could really call him a horses ####.

EbbOnFire
09-24-2012, 12:50 PM
Just as a thought experiment, imagine the problems that would arise and the effort required to address them if you wanted to make a different change: adding Centaur as a playable PC race.

So right off, you've got sizing and animation issues. You can't restrict the PC from going into a subset of dungeons, so you have to figure out some way to make it work with all existing dungeons without looking really goofy. That includes:
- Climbing ladders
- Scrambling up narrow ledges
- Swimming, both on the surface and underwater
- Corridors with low ceilings
- Jumping on things with small footprints -- floor buttons, Shroud lights, traps, those pillars in Rainbow in the Dark...

Now it's okay to say that most quests would work fine, and only some would have problems. But the DDO code doesn't have a flag in it right now for "okay for big 4-legged beasties". The closest you've got is perhaps "quest vs. explorer zone". So everything has to be reexamined, and some things potentially altered. You can't have a flag that says "horse not able to be ridden here" unless you go through and exhaustively check and test everything.

Because it's borderline okay to have goofy Artificer dog animations and teleporting hirelings in order to get around this stuff, but it's not going to be okay when it's your PC. To say nothing of the suspension of disbelief. It's bad enough that the guests in Partycrashers don't turn their heads when two bears, a mindflayer, a hezrou and a halfling walk into a bar like it's some kind of bad joke... Now they have to be polite and ignore the man riding on an 1800 pound warhorse too? Remember, the DDO game doesn't know if you're "inside" or "outside" -- the terms don't have any meaning, unless some dev takes the time to go through and flag each and every area.

I'd submit that the "paladin on a horse" is going to run into all of these same things, and so would require a really substantial amount of effort to get right. This doesn't even address game mechanics -- extra damage, or how it affects your reflex save, or whatever. This is just the baseline "don't make it look stupid" check.


Even if you restrict things to Explorer zones, you still have to deal with the goofiness. Do you let the paladin ride his mount up into the Gnoll village in Meredia? If not, how do you code for that? I'm sure the engine doesn't distinguish between "place you could ride a horse" and "place that you can't". It's okay to have beasties that are bigger than human size, because the developer places those individually where they make sense. Not so much for the Lone Ranger riding Silver into every crypt in the Orchard.

Basically, I think mounts (like flying) are something that have to be designed in from the start. You can't retrofit them onto an existing world that has already made lots of assumptions about the size of PCs and their basic animations without more headache than is justified by the benefits.

Would it be cool? Sure. Do paladins need a boost in power? Definitely. Is there a way to do it cost-effectively? Not that I see.

cdbd3rd
09-24-2012, 01:37 PM
... most of those mounts usually died horribly due being left some to close to monsters while we did our questing.


Are you SURE you've never played in any of my games over the years? Another thing I was notorious for as a DM. http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/cdemotes/evilgrin.gif

Horses tied to a tree - what a tasty snack. :cool:


Insult on top of injury = the characters left their lances outside with the horses, which were then used for spits to cook said horses on over an open fire. :D

LeoLionxxx
09-24-2012, 01:37 PM
Just as a thought experiment, imagine the problems that would arise and the effort required to address them if you wanted to make a different change: adding Centaur as a playable PC race.

So right off, you've got sizing and animation issues. You can't restrict the PC from going into a subset of dungeons, so you have to figure out some way to make it work with all existing dungeons without looking really goofy. That includes:
- Climbing ladders
- Scrambling up narrow ledges
- Swimming, both on the surface and underwater
- Corridors with low ceilings
- Jumping on things with small footprints -- floor buttons, Shroud lights, traps, those pillars in Rainbow in the Dark...


1) where did centaurs come up? Why are you talking of them, and what do they haveto do with paladins and mounts?

2) it was already covered how the mounted paladin would swim/hang/climb ect...

Now it's okay to say that most quests would work fine, and only some would have problems. But the DDO code doesn't have a flag in it right now for "okay for big 4-legged beasties". The closest you've got is perhaps "quest vs. explorer zone". So everything has to be reexamined, and some things potentially altered. You can't have a flag that says "horse not able to be ridden here" unless you go through and exhaustively check and test everything.
*SNIP*
I'd submit that the "paladin on a horse" is going to run into all of these same things, and so would require a really substantial amount of effort to get right. This doesn't even address game mechanics -- extra damage, or how it affects your reflex save, or whatever. This is just the baseline "don't make it look stupid" check.


Even if you restrict things to Explorer zones, you still have to deal with the goofiness. Do you let the paladin ride his mount up into the Gnoll village in Meredia? If not, how do you code for that? I'm sure the engine doesn't distinguish between "place you could ride a horse" and "place that you can't". It's okay to have beasties that are bigger than human size, because the developer places those individually where they make sense. Not so much for the Lone Ranger riding Silver into every crypt in the Orchard.

Basically, I think mounts (like flying) are something that have to be designed in from the start. You can't retrofit them onto an existing world that has already made lots of assumptions about the size of PCs and their basic animations without more headache than is justified by the benefits.

Would it be cool? Sure. Do paladins need a boost in power? Definitely. Is there a way to do it cost-effectively? Not that I see.

3) "4 legged beasties" have alreay been introduced with bear/wold druid forms. so it's not such a strech to have a horse jumping from cliff to cliff.

4) Again, we are NOT TALKING OF ADDING MOUNTS, only a paladin druid-like shapeshifing ability that creates the image of the player as being on a horse; just like how the player is percived as a bear/wolf. And I don't know how pepole keep throwing the flying card for this into the wind (pun intended.)







I don't see how mounts would work as far as animation goes...it be a major pain to implement and would look cheesy I think because of how fast paced the combat is in DDO.

Personally I think they should boost paladins by making their aura better...I think they should basically double the bonuses their aura provides to saves/AC of nearby allies. And make it give PPR and maybe dodge bonuses as well to allies near them.

We did have a little discussion about that:



With the graphics issues of combat, I could see a possible resolution - while standing still, the horse and rider are facing forward. When you begin to swing, the horse cants to one side, possibly tilted to the left while you swing forward/partially to the right. Even two weapon fighting could be considered, with a thrust attack made by the off hand. This can graphically allow you to still fight enemies ahead of you. Cleave and Greatcleave could be the horse rearing up, and then crashing down as the rider slashes to the side. A trip could be a downward thrust of the weapon, as if the rider's aiming low - or the horse could stomp on an enemy's foot, give a low kick or something.

Of course, seeing a paladin with a spear or perhaps even a lance could be fun as well. It could even use the same mechanics for damage that the druid's forms do - you get the form's damage dice and crit range, but weapon properties carry over. As for the basic attack animation, although the head of a spear or point of a lance is the focus of the weapon, the shaft can still be used to strike enemies. It's not ideal, but could add variation to the attack process.


The idea might need a little work, but all it is is animating the attacks diffrently; again, like has been done for bear/wolf. If we can figure out how it should look, this could very possibly be implemented.


TO ALL: before posting on this thread, please at least skim through what has previosly been posted. I know, 40+ is a lot, but please, lets try to keep the conversation flowing without having to backtrack on what's already been said.

Therrias
09-24-2012, 01:44 PM
This is what it should look like in my opinion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount

cdbd3rd
09-24-2012, 01:57 PM
This is what it should look like in my opinion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount


"Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically."



And when the pally tried to urge the mount down into waterworks, the 'empathic message' would probably be clear on the horse's opinion.

Should said horse still be forced to enter, would chuckle at the d6+ ceiling damage the Pally takes every time the horse jumps in the sewer tunnels. :D

maddmatt70
09-24-2012, 02:07 PM
This response.

Thank you.

Seriously, the Paladin mount is a huge deal to the Paladin, one of the many reasons, in PnP, the Paladin is considered a Tier II class (with fighters and barbs being strongly in Tier IV, if that). Of course, PnP is a completely different game, but it doesn't have to be.

On top of that, Uska's belief that he's never seen this in PnP... well, assume you've been playing since the game came out (version 3.0-3.5) and had a regular, weekly game year long, that's maybe 10 different GMs you could have had. Not much of a large pool of people.

In my TWO, just TWO PnP 3.0 groups I'd played with, a Paladin's mount was a HUGE deal. So, according to me, I could say I've never seen a PnP game not balanced with a Paladin's mount in mind.

Granted, a Paladin, in PnP, can get a Unicorn, Dragon or other crazy overpowered mount by end game. So... there's that. I mean, my wife's Unicorn mount, in PnP (we were just dating then, so girlfriend's...) was stronger than our Cleric, so basically... she had her character AND a cleric while I had a samurai with a really cool sword... :(

I made a poor choice in class.

That decision aside, in PnP, Paladins REALLY ARE BALANCED WITH MOUNTS IN MIND, and they got nothing in DDO to rebalance them.

.

This is 100% correct the Paladin mount is very powerful in Dungeons and Dragons and Dungeons and Dragons balances the paladin with this powerful mount in mind yet in DDO we get no mount and nothing in return for not having a mount. A paladin on horseback charging at an enemy with a lance in D&D 3.5 is one of the most terrifying things a player can do - yet here in DDO we can not do that and get nothing in return for not being able to do so.

To USKA a buddy of mine in 3.5 D&D played a paladin with a greatsword while riding a mount and with all the bonuses to charging and smite evil and divine might feat and some of the pally spells could do for over 200 pts of damage as part of ride by attack and end the attack out of the attackers range for later that or the next round. Even at low levels trained mounts are great because they can damage attackers and there are occasions that a mount is a better attacker then the person riding the mount.

EbbOnFire
09-24-2012, 03:18 PM
1) where did centaurs come up? Why are you talking of them, and what do they haveto do with paladins and mounts?

2) it was already covered how the mounted paladin would swim/hang/climb ect...


3) "4 legged beasties" have alreay been introduced with bear/wold druid forms. so it's not such a strech to have a horse jumping from cliff to cliff.

4) Again, we are NOT TALKING OF ADDING MOUNTS, only a paladin druid-like shapeshifing ability that creates the image of the player as being on a horse; just like how the player is percived as a bear/wolf. And I don't know how pepole keep throwing the flying card for this into the wind (pun intended.)








We did have a little discussion about that:




The idea might need a little work, but all it is is animating the attacks diffrently; again, like has been done for bear/wolf. If we can figure out how it should look, this could very possibly be implemented.


TO ALL: before posting on this thread, please at least skim through what has previosly been posted. I know, 40+ is a lot, but please, lets try to keep the conversation flowing without having to backtrack on what's already been said.

Yep, read and understood the entire thread, thanks. Obviously we've got different opinions here. I think you're severely underestimating the amount of work required to implement something like this. I brought up centaurs as an example of a creature that would be as tall, long and wide as a mounted rider, in hopes that getting people to visualize a centaur squeezing through the existing dungeon layouts and interacting with the people-scale objects in the world might help others see the mismatch more clearly. If you like, use another creature of similar size. Sure, we have druids in bear form now. But could you have a PC the size of the dire bears in the King's Forest? Your opinion is that the graphical issues would be minor and solvable; I don't see it that way. But it's just a thought experiment anyway, so probably not worth spending more time arguing about.

Ok, I lied. One more run at it:

Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?

So what I'm saying is that a realistic depiction of a human-sized rider on a normal-sized horse would run into lots of similar, though less aggravated, issues. We can disagree on the extent of those issues and how easy or hard they'd be to solve, certainly. And we can definitely disagree on how much the new feature would add to the game, as compared to the work required.

maddmatt70
09-24-2012, 03:25 PM
Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?
.

Just how different would a frost giant be when compared to a bear? Really how much larger would a horse have to be compared to a bear? I am not saying you do not have a point or if the dev time is necessarily worth it, but at least some sort of alternative bump to pallys should be worked out. At least allow my pallys to move 20% faster in non rough terrain for god sake....

countfitz
09-24-2012, 03:58 PM
Think we scrapped having it a pet before we started disscussing it.

Yes, does seem like it would be awkward to toggle between mounted and not when hanging/climbing, but not sure what could be done to fix that. Guess just stick with 'it's a magical horse, it does what it wants'.



That's how it's done in PnP, so yeah, magical horse that can literally appear out of nowhere. :)

countfitz
09-24-2012, 04:00 PM
What to apply the new shape-shifting mechanics to... let me think, how about the level 9 shapechange spell that isn't in the game!?? Also gaseous form would be cool.

I feel like this would end up being another gimpy useless pet running around adding nothing of value to my paladin unless your going to give me some amazing movement speed buff.

Zerg faster?

You would, if we went with the PnP suggestions and a simple animation change, a bonus to speed, spell resistance, and maybe a few more buffs, akin to druids being in form. So yeah, Zerg faster.

LeoLionxxx
09-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Yep, read and understood the entire thread, thanks. Obviously we've got different opinions here. I think you're severely underestimating the amount of work required to implement something like this. I brought up centaurs as an example of a creature that would be as tall, long and wide as a mounted rider, in hopes that getting people to visualize a centaur squeezing through the existing dungeon layouts and interacting with the people-scale objects in the world might help others see the mismatch more clearly. If you like, use another creature of similar size. Sure, we have druids in bear form now. But could you have a PC the size of the dire bears in the King's Forest? Your opinion is that the graphical issues would be minor and solvable; I don't see it that way. But it's just a thought experiment anyway, so probably not worth spending more time arguing about.

Ok, I lied. One more run at it:

Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?

So what I'm saying is that a realistic depiction of a human-sized rider on a normal-sized horse would run into lots of similar, though less aggravated, issues. We can disagree on the extent of those issues and how easy or hard they'd be to solve, certainly. And we can definitely disagree on how much the new feature would add to the game, as compared to the work required.

Okay, sorry, jumped the gun to a conclusion there I guess.

I see what you're getting at with the sizing issues. I did think of that, looked at my bear druid, and said to myself: I could fit a person of there. But of course, a horse isn't a bit bigger than a bear, it can be a lot taller. A solution to this could be to ditch exact reality, and have the horse a bit smaller than it would be commpared to RL. I'm thinking that on the horse (call it 'young celestial steed'?), the head of the paladin would be about 1.5X its normal height. That looks plausable, what do you think?

EbbOnFire
09-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Okay, sorry, jumped the gun to a conclusion there I guess.

I see what you're getting at with the sizing issues. I did think of that, looked at my bear druid, and said to myself: I could fit a person of there. But of course, a horse isn't a bit bigger than a bear, it can be a lot taller. A solution to this could be to ditch exact reality, and have the horse a bit smaller than it would be commpared to RL. I'm thinking that on the horse (call it 'young celestial steed'?), the head of the paladin would be about 1.5X its normal height. That looks plausable, what do you think?

Well, the devil's in the details, as they say. I'm not an artist, but I have been around enough horses to know that they're really, really big. If you factor in that you'd have to handle things like half-orc paladins (who aren't going to be seen dead riding around on little celestial ponies), then my gut tells me you couldn't really make it work without bringing in a boatload of dwarven contractors to expand all of the dungeons. But who knows -- stranger things have happened.

Worldcrafter
09-24-2012, 06:10 PM
Clearly, the solution is reverse scaling. Half orc and warforged paladins get a pony, humans and various elf breeds get a normal horse, halflings get Clydesdales. And dwarves get a goat, because no self-respecting dwarf rides horses.

Joking aside, at most I could imagine a mounted paladin being hezrou height. Give or take a little on how the DDO art department might want to design it, but effectively, there you go. Now, a hezrou is a tall and wide demon that can be summoned and lumbers around behind you when not going off to smash something in the face. It easily passes through doorways and arches that it dwarfs, without using its teleport. Should we suddenly call a stop and demand a recreation for all of the doors to fit hezrou through? And some of my characters summon earth elementals of various sizes, or the ice elementals when I had the gem. Some of those were larger then the doorways, yet we have merrily accepted this suspension of belief already. So why is this such a great issue for paladins on horseback?

I am very surprised at how quick people are to jump on the visuals of an idea without even giving the mechanics a thought. Is the graphical change from being on foot to being on a horse truly so detrimental to the game, despite the various workarounds that have been provided for the more awkward parts?

We have barely touched on anything mechanical. All we have is a vague idea for a speed boost and a couple of rough drafts for spells. We haven't even decided the amount of speed boost granted, or if it stacks with anything or not. Yet some people are acting like we're calling down the apocalypse because we want to put "a man on a horse," and it would forevermore ruin the game.

That being said, I propose the following as an initial suggestion:
* +20% Speed Boost.
* +1 Hit, +2 Damage. Being on horseback allows you to swing down with more force.
* Attacks become Lance damage, 1d8 piercing, x3 Crit. Gains the abilities of your equipped weapons. Counts as 2 hands for damage mod, but you still receive shield benefits.
* +2 Intimidate, +10% Incite. Someone on horseback is more threatening, especially if the horse is somewhere it shouldn't be. Go magical horse!
* -3 Reflex Save. It's a magical horse, but not a magical ninja horse.
* -10 Hide and Move Silently.
* Non-form spells have triple the normal cool down time.

Form Spells
- Level 1 -
* Divine Lance - You attack a target with +2[W]; every two seconds for the next 8 seconds, the target suffers an additional 1d4 good damage.
* Holy Spear - For the next 30 seconds, your melee attacks deal an extra +1d6 light damage to enemies. This is dispelled if you leave Mounted Combat Form.

- Level 2 -
* Trample - You deal 3+1d3 bludgeon damage per level to all enemies within a short distance of you, Reflex save for half.
* Glorious Strike - You attack a target, dealing +4[W]; the target also has to make a Will save or be stunned for 6 seconds.

- Level 3 -
* Heroic Charge - You charge forward a set distance, dealing +3[w] to all enemies in your path.

fco-karatekid
09-24-2012, 06:35 PM
People have most likely been saying it ever since paladins could get to level four - they want the mount. Not everyone, perhaps, but it is an iconic aspect of paladins, and so far the only arguments I have seen against it have been people pointing out the ill-logic of having a horse in a dungeon. 3rd and 3.5 work around this by having it a summoned celestial steed, making it a bit easier to bring through narrow places. Or just play a halfling on a riding dog....What do you think would be good boons or drawbacks that would make having a mount fair...

Why not meet half-way. Give them the agreed-upon bonuses when there are two halflings in party... representing the fact the paladin strapped one to each boot?

Worldcrafter
09-24-2012, 06:39 PM
Do hireling halflings count toward this, or does it have to be two player halflings?

fco-karatekid
09-24-2012, 06:41 PM
Having played a Paladin in DDO for over 6 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on this:

The issues I see are:
1) The quest designs don't have mounts in mind. There's tons of jumping, swimming, dungeon crawling, etc. and I think a mount would only realistically be useful in an outdoor setting; explorer areas, and any outdoor quests, Though the only time I've really wanted my Paladin mount was when I was running through the King's Forest...it seemed kind of wrong that traveling long distances in the wilderness I should have to run...

This is the very first thing I think of every time this thread pops up. It is the single most important reason this will just mess up too much if mounts are implemented for any class.

LeoLionxxx
09-24-2012, 09:04 PM
That being said, I propose the following as an initial suggestion:
* +20% Speed Boost.
* +1 Hit, +2 Damage. Being on horseback allows you to swing down with more force.
* Attacks become Lance damage, 1d8 piercing, x3 Crit. Gains the abilities of your equipped weapons. Counts as 2 hands for damage mod, but you still receive shield benefits.
* +2 Intimidate, +10% Incite. Someone on horseback is more threatening, especially if the horse is somewhere it shouldn't be. Go magical horse!
* -3 Reflex Save. It's a magical horse, but not a magical ninja horse.
* -10 Hide and Move Silently.
* Non-form spells have triple the normal cool down time.

Form Spells
- Level 1 -
* Divine Lance - You attack a target with +2[W]; every two seconds for the next 8 seconds, the target suffers an additional 1d4 good damage.
* Holy Spear - For the next 30 seconds, your melee attacks deal an extra +1d6 light damage to enemies. This is dispelled if you leave Mounted Combat Form.

- Level 2 -
* Trample - You deal 3+1d3 bludgeon damage per level to all enemies within a short distance of you, Reflex save for half.
* Glorious Strike - You attack a target, dealing +4[W]; the target also has to make a Will save or be stunned for 6 seconds.

- Level 3 -
* Heroic Charge - You charge forward a set distance, dealing +3[w] to all enemies in your path.

Some issues to press on:

1) does the 20% stack with striding, override it, or the higher value taking effect?
I'm thinking the latter becuase, even though it doesn't make sense YOUR striding boots effect the horse, a 10% penalty off the maximum (30%) would be severly missed. Lets do same as the druid wolf forms, and have the 30% override the form's value; don't want people complaining that they are faster on foot than horseback.

2)Lance peircing damage:
If possible, lets not go with lances/spears over your normal gear. Paladins (as appose to druids) have proficency with martial weapons becuase they do much more damage than a simple weapon, and, in 1st edition, they were a direct branchoff of fighter. Druids have set damage amounts (1D12 for Dire Bear I belive) to make up for their lack of proficeny with good weapons (scimitars asside).
As a meele toon, you become attached to your weapons; I have a collection of bastard swords saved from Fighter days for my paladin life. To rob (becuase otherwise the paladin won't want to use the mount as much) the paladin of their weapon types is too much.
Also, 1D8 peircing seems kind of weak, even with x3 crit (that crit. threat would you be suggesting?)

3)I was thinking a penalty to reflex as well. Now, should this be accompanied or replaced by a -2 penalty to DEX. just throwing that out there for some feedback.

4) Triple cooldown is WAY too much. Palading rely on their healing spells in combat and in some cases heal others when things get hairy (I saw someone say ' a paladin is like a fire extinguisher: You don't know why it's there until you need it'). Now, the reason druids got 2.5X cooldown represents their difficulty of casting spells while being a wild beast. Paladins, on the other hand, would simply be on a horse. They are still themselves, just they now have a cool ride.
Perhaps a X1.5 on non-heal spells would work. Or, no colldown penalties at all. I'm not sure what whould be appropriat here. This would need further disscusion.

5) Should the riding powers be spells?
Paladins do not get echos of power, and do not have that large a mana pool.Reason it did work for Druids is that they have both these things. They might want to save their mana for healing/buffs rather than use it for some super-powered attacks.

6) disscussion needs to be had on what lv pallies whould get this horse, and the level for the spells(or feats) whould be based off that. I'm thinking get the steed at 8, 10, or 12.

and finally:
7) For the charge attack, what you're suggesting would incorporate same mechanic for leap of faith/snow slide/jet propulsion correct? Well, if you`ll notice, it`s only P2P content that has this feature on them. Can't give a free to play class a feature like that willy-nilly.

So, that's my 2-cents on those points. I agree on the rest unless i've forgotten anything.
Now, it's time for bed.

Worldcrafter
09-24-2012, 10:49 PM
- Movement Speed -
I left this undecided simply because I wanted to hear what others would like to see or think would be a better fit. I could easily see whatever bonus is highest taking place.

- Lance vs Personal Gear -
I am all for having the player use their own weapons while in mount form, and would prefer it myself. However, the lance suggestion (an evolution from your own spear suggestion, and just as easily interchanged) was for simplicity's sake; it would be less coding to give the "form" a set damage type. I wanted to initially go with 1d10, but the druid's forms start off at 1d6 for wolf and 1d8 for bear. It could be argued that the animal forms also have multiple types of damage vs. a lance's set piercing (not the best for DR bypassing), but I thought the ability to gain 2 handed damage and still get shield benefits would offset that. The 1d8 was a tentative first shot, testing the waters as if it were. By no means did I intend to leave it there, which I will elaborate on when replying to point 6.

- Dex and Ref penalties -
The reflex penalty was completely your inspiration; I simply took it and ran with it. I'm not certain if both a reflex and a dex penalty should be applied together, as it is a little redundant. On the other hand, if people felt it would be a good combination for an appropriate drawback, I'd suggest dropping the reflex penalty to -2, to offset the further reduction due to dex penalty.

- Triple Cooldown -
Initially, Druids had x3, and it was brought down to x2.5 because they're a caster heavy class. While I am willing to contemplate having it lowered, I think a x3 could be one of the great equalizers that makes a mount an option, and not a "must have." Does the paladin go for additional damage with potential special effects, risking slower healing in combat, or do they go on foot and maintain a higher healing rate?

I am reluctant, but not completely opposed to, lowering or removing the cool down. I do not feel the other penalties are enough to justify offering the bonuses and potential abilities. But that's what this thread is for, discussion, suggestions, and polish. If more people felt this was inappropriate, then reduce or scrap as seen fit.

- Riding Powers - Spells or not? -
I feel this would satisfy two needs. First, there are people who feel paladins need more viable spells. This would provide that, albeit limited to the mounted form. Second, making the mounted abilities form-oriented spells works off of existing mechanics, making it easier to incorporate at this point in time.

To offer longevity to the paladin's limited SP bar, form-only spells have a much lower spell cost compared to others. Another suggestion is that some could have moderate cooldown periods, like 10-15 seconds, so they can still be used frequently in combat, but offer some reprieve so they don't burn SP so fast.

However, I am always open to ideas; what would you suggest would be good alternatives for the riding powers?

- When do Paladins get their Mount? -
Ah, the sixth point. I was thinking we follow 3.5 for this idea. Paladins get their mount at level 5, and get some upgrades at level 8, 11, and 15 - the levels the mount itself would be upgraded at for PnP. What would be upgraded?

If we followed with the idea of the character wielding a lance, I was thinking a dice upgrade at the various levels - 1d10, 1d12, ??? (2d8? Not certain.)

This also worked with an alternate idea for the mount speed; starting it off lower (10% or 15% boost), and having it increase 5% each time (end result of 25% or 30%, pending on what the initial bonus was)

Of course, as always, I am up for alternate ideas and alterations to the ones I propose.

- Heroic Charge -
Your assumption is partially correct; my original post states the inspiration, which one might argue is a more exclusive ability - Flyby Attack, from Draconic Incarnation. This could function very well to simulate a mounted charge, plowing through some enemies to deal damage. I wouldn't count out the fact that paladin is a free class to exclude this ability, because we're already venturing into the territory of paid for classes - using Druid's wildshape as a basis, true? And again, I point out that when U14 rolled around, the free class paladins had most of their immunities intact, while the paid for warforged race had more of a change.

LeoLionxxx
09-25-2012, 08:24 PM
I'll submit, an extended cooldown would be approptiat and a small one should be implemented. 1.5X or 2X at Max i'd suggest.


The riding powers would work well as spells, especially since they do already have the mechanich for them all set. I agree, a low SP cost and lengthy cooldown is ideal too.

But on another thought: the mounted attacks could instead be tied to the paladin't 'smite evil' ability. These powers seem like they would be just as prestigious as this, and far as I know, smites are only used for that one type off attack (I could be wrong) They also recharge at a rate of 1/1(or 2, again I forget) per min, so they wouldn't be spammed as much, and be able to be used even when the paladin is out of SP.

Worldcrafter
09-26-2012, 02:27 PM
I can agree with a reduction from the x3; let us go with the proposed middle ground of x2 cool down.

Nice thought on using the mounted combats as smites instead of spells! I had not contemplated that before. It seems a good alternative to spells, and the regeneration does offer more uses in a prolonged dungeon. I've done some reflection and some rough number crunching though, and with the possible exception of Heroic Charge's ability to strike multiple enemies, the smite is better then the damage output of my proposed abilities.

Assuming that DDO went with the form damage and increased at the levels I suggested, at level 15, Glorious Strike's +4[W] deals 10d8 damage, or an extra 8d8. Average hit, that's somewhere in the ballpark of 32-36 additional damage, with a maximum of +64 (rolling all 8's). A smite at that level gains solid 52 damage, and not to mention a good hit boost. When it comes to crit, the random damage makes an even greater discrepancy - and that's not including Exalted Smite and its bonuses to threat range and damage.

At level 20, Smite is just a powerhouse that outshines Glorious Strike completely. Smite gets up to +67 damage non-crit, beating the maximum Glorious Strike could produce.

sephiroth1084
09-26-2012, 03:07 PM
The beauty of this suggestion is it builds on the Druid shapeshifting work that the devs spent YEARS working out, and using it for more than one class. They spent all that manpower working, and it's used on a single class.
That effort should probably be devoted to giving us Shifters, a core race of the Eberron campaign setting (and probably the only race we're likely to see with a +2 to Wis), or to implement the Shapechange spell (or other spells from the Polymorph subschool).

Mounts are not going to do much to improve the paladin class. There are lots of areas where they won't be useful at all, they will probably be quite buggy, and really don't improve upon most of the areas for which paladins need help--DPS, solutions to their lack of feats (mounted combat typically comes with a series of feats needed to make it worthwhile, which paladins can't afford), tight AP, and being able to use their existing class features effectively (namely: healing, which kind of requires a 1 or 2 feat investment that they really can't afford).

Worldcrafter
09-26-2012, 05:27 PM
That effort should probably be devoted to giving us Shifters, a core race of the Eberron campaign setting (and probably the only race we're likely to see with a +2 to Wis), or to implement the Shapechange spell (or other spells from the Polymorph subschool).

Actually, the barbarian rage mechanic is better suited to a shifter's "shifting" ability, because it acts in a similar fashion - they get some bonuses and abilities depending on what traits they picked, get a bonus to Str, Con, or Dex (again, based on the trait they picked), and in PnP lasts a like amount of time (3+ con modifier). It's then just a matter of adding a graphic to the model based on the "shifting" ability selected, such as horns for Gorebrute or some claws for Razorclaw. Many of the "shifts" do not have a cosmetic difference that could be easily added or be very notable - Beasthide, Cliffwalk, Dreamsight, Longstride,, Truedive and Wildhunt. Gorebrute, Longtooth, Razorclaw and Swiftwing would be the most notable ones, butSwiftwing probably won't make it into the game unless it's just a featherfall toggle, and Longtooth and Razorclaw might not be significant enough to add graphically. So, I disagree that the druid's wildshape ability is appropriate.

As far as Shapechange goes, I'm not opposed to the mechanic going to that. However, I hardly hear a cry that wizards and sorcerers are lacking compared to other classes due to missing out on Shapechange. Paladins have suffered for their lack of a mount, both from not having it and not really having something to replace it. And rather then add a spell that will allow an arcane to go melee things or get more SLA's, I think it would be more fair to work on a possible method to boost a paladin's capabilities and restore a missing iconic ability before adding a new spell - but that's simply my personal opinion on the matter.


Mounts are not going to do much to improve the paladin class.

And why not? This is what the thread about, being able to make mounts viable so they do improve the paladin class.


There are lots of areas where they won't be useful at all,

Which we have covered already and provided workarounds. Areas where the horse doesn't fit, paladins get their own sparkly temporary interaction body, like how druids get when climbing ladders or interacting with things.


they will probably be quite buggy,

Moot point; this can be said for any idea. They already have a foundation mechanic (druid wildshape) to help reduce the bugs. And lately, DDO's been kicking up their work on hammering out bugs and have put Enhancement Pass on hold to iron out more bugs. I trust that if they chose to incorporate this idea, they'd work to minimize the bugs.


and really don't improve upon most of the areas for which paladins need help--DPS,

Actually, I think that giving the "mounted combat" form some damage and hit buffs, it adds to DPS. With the addition of form spells, it both gives paladins more spell options, and provides more spikes in damage, raising overall DPS. Such as with the suggested spells of Divine Lance (+2[W] and a "good damage bleed" for 8 seconds), Holy Spear (+1d6 light damage per melee for 30 seconds), Glorious Strike (+4[w] and 6 second stun, will negates), Trample (personal AoE dealing 3 +1d3 bludgeoning per level, ref for half), and Heroic Charge (+3[W] to all enemies in charge path).


solutions to their lack of feats (mounted combat typically comes with a series of feats needed to make it worthwhile, which paladins can't afford),

If we use the druid's wildshape mechanics as a basis, it negates any need for mounted feats, thereby allowing paladins to use their mount without having to sacrifice feats. Furthermore, it is suggested that any "mounted combat" abilities become form-specific spells.


tight AP

The idea does not help with dedicated AP spending. However, as the suggestion is now, it doesn't rely on AP either, making the argument moot at this point in time.


and being able to use their existing class features effectively (namely: healing, which kind of requires a 1 or 2 feat investment that they really can't afford).

With the exception of increased spell cooldown, the presented idea won't stop a paladin from being able to focus in healing. And please remember, we want the mount to be an option, not a "must need!" ability. A paladin will be able to heal more frequently on foot, but they lose out DPS while not mounted.

sephiroth1084
09-26-2012, 09:44 PM
I think the temporary form for climbing ladders and such is rather stupid. I can kind of live with it for druids, since, ultimately, they're the ones climbing up, though I'd prefer to have animations of wolves and bears climbing. For mounts, though...no way you're seeing a horse do that. Sure, verisimilitude isn't that important in DDO, but going out of your way to breach it doesn't look attractive, even if it is helpful.

The problem with the mount is the same problem we have now without the mount--there's nothing to replace it. You say it wouldn't be mandatory, but if it represents enough DPS to close the gap between paladins and the real DPS classes, then it WILL be mandatory, because we don't have anything to use when not using the mount. You can hand wave that away and say that something else will or should be developed for those who don't care for the mount, but that hasn't happened in 6 years, and I don't expect it to suddenly occur because there is a recognized need for a balance against having a mount.

I think I'd be in favor of the paladin's third PrE becoming Cavalier, and getting a mount that way (the devs have expressed a desire to fold Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice into a single PrE), but then you're losing other stuff. If you think paladins would get a mount and not have to spend AP or feats on it at all, I think you're kidding yourself, because that isn't going to happen.

The Pathfinder RPG did a fair job of providing alternative options: you can form a bond with your weapon and can enchant it a few times a day with a variety of properties you can select from a list. Not spectacular for DDO, but useful. The class archetypes can trade in that ability for a defensive version or for other powers.

Worldcrafter
09-27-2012, 12:50 AM
I cannot argue with an opinion, because it is just that - an opinion. However, the current method on druid interactions is set to temporarily return to the base model. With the fact the paladin's steed is a "magical horse" that gets pulled and sent back to its own plane, the transition makes more sense for paladins - they temporarily send their horse back to its celestial plane until the paladin finishes what they were doing, and calls it back. This is even slipping in D&D 3.5 canon for those folks who like DDO keeping in touch with the game.

Forgive me, but I can never understand how the reasoning that offering a paladin an iconic power AND possibly giving them some use from it is a bad thing. Do you also feel the same way about a barbarian's rage? It, too, should be removed, because they have no other options? Perhaps it should be reserved for a Prestige instead? While my ultimate goal is to provide mount as an option and not a necessity, what would be so terrible if the mount did become a necessity for more damage output?

Furthermore, a lot of people seem so eager to just throw their hands up, cry an idea is impossible, and prefer to dwell in silent acceptance rather then offer ideas on how to make something work. After all, paladins have not had a mount in six years, why hope? Because things change. Druids haven't been around for six years - but they're here now. Half-orcs and half-elves weren't part of the original release. Gnomes, shifters, and other Eberron races are not here - should we simply throw our hands up and claim it impossible to bring them in, just because they have not showed up for six years?

Or should we raise our voices with desire and ideas? Shouldn't we, the players, offer our suggestions and advice to the people who work at DDO? Our ideas may simply be discarded. Our words may simply become some backlog thread on some page in the upper hundreds, never to be revisited save by a random curious member. Or, the ideas we lay out may be the spark needed to set ablaze revolution, creativity, and taking a step to making the impossible, possible. It may be these ideas presented here, or they may just be that first push that set the gears in motion for something better - but if we remain silent, how will we ever know?

So tell me, as I have asked all the others who disagree with me, who just lapsed back into silence after my inquiry, what is it that you feel could help improve the shot at getting the mount idea accepted? What boons do you feel are necessary that will turn peoples' heads and go, "you know, that mount is a good idea!" What penalties are needed to balance it, to keep the mount from being "that must have?"

Please, I beg of you and all who say the mount is impossible, enlighten me. This is not sarcasm, but an earnest request from my fellow players. I have not played a paladin to a point where I have experienced high level play. My highest has been level 5, then deleted and remade when vet II came out. So I beseech those with more experience, and those who doubt this idea could be beneficial, what do you think would a mount need to become viable? With the current system and mechanics, tell me what is best suited to represent one of the core powers of the paladin class. Not if it should, or should not, or couldn't - but how.

As far as AP goes, perhaps that could be the point that makes a mount become an option. You claim there is tight AP? Then you have a build choice. Build for healing, or build for DPS - much the same choice fighters and barbarians face now.

sephiroth1084
09-27-2012, 02:13 AM
For me, mechanics and balance aside, I'd only ever wants mounts for paladins in DDO if:


Mounts became a regular feature. That is, anyone could conceivably get a mount, but paladins could get special, combat-capable mounts.
The mechanics for mounts were fluid, such that you could mount and dismount without the animation looking glitchy, jerky, or otherwise ridiculous.
It could be done in such a way that it feels right, which I can't imagine it ever will...a mounted character would be of considerable size...the horse would be larger than a druid in bear form, and then we'd have the character model atop it. I don't see us getting character models that large, or, even if we did, those models would be cumbersome--they'd block everyone else's view, probably block your view, would look awkward going through doorways, running down tunnels, and leaping onto narrow posts or ledges.
Combat animations while mounted looked good. Swinging a quarterstaff around like a sword while on horseback would look much more ridiculous than the spinning slices we make with rapiers, or the poking attacks we make with clubs. Not to mention, I doubt we'd get spears or lances anyway. So it would then be an extension of your mounted character model. You equip a sword, but you're seeing a lance? Would they cover shields while mounted?

We don't have a large world like WoW or Star Wars does to justify using a mount for travel, and most of our adventures are set in areas not very conducive to using a mount. Turning paladins into a pet class would suck, both because pet AI blows, and because that isn't the flavor of paladins in D&D--even with the mount, there is very little concerning training, tricks and such.


I just don't believe we would get good-looking, dynamic mounted combat here. Heck, the druid is pretty lackluster in as many ways, with awkward-looking forms (at times), fairly limited options, and counter-intuitive design. Nothing about the druid makes me confident that mounts would turn out very well.

Worldcrafter
09-27-2012, 03:30 AM
By saying "mechanics and balancing aside," you completely disregard everything I ask of you, other to say that as long as the horses "looked pretty," you'd like it. I am frustrated with this answer, as I'm hoping to delve more into the inner workings behind the idea, but will do the best I can to answer and discuss your points.

1. Everyone Should Get Mounts
I disagree with this idea at this point in time for two reasons - it is an unique class feature, and it's a special horse to begin with, beyond just "fighting." Claiming that everyone should have a mount if the paladin gets one is similar to claiming others should get barbarian/monk speed boost, rage, cleric turning, rogue sneak attack, or spells.

The reason a paladin's mount is feasible in the adverse conditions of narrow corridors, places with climbing and jumping, and everything people say a horse wouldn't be able to go is because the horse is special and can go there. Again, sending it to its home plane when it doesn't fit somewhere, recalling it when you get to a space it can fit. This is one of the reasons why I feel that paladins should be allowed to have their mount in DDO at this time.

2. Mounting and Dismounting
This is not an issue that an idea on a forum can address. This is something that the art department and animators would have to work on. Furthermore, there would have to be coding in order to spawn a mount, fusing it with the character when mounted, and determining how it functions when you dismount - is it a viable target that can be attacked, does it just stand there, can you "call" it like a hireling?

This is one of the reasons that I believe using the druid's wildshape as a viable option. By using it, we bypass additional coding for mounting, dismounting, spawning and handling the mount. You activate the ability, there's a light blur, you become knight on horseback.

3. Model Size
Just because there hasn't been a character model that large doesn't mean it is impossible. Additionally, we already have access to summoning earth elementals and hezrou that break the normal boundaries of size and dimension, yet we pay no heed to them blundering through doorways too small for them.

As for obstructing views, that's bound to happen; that happens with any kind of character model though, especially if you have a summon following you. How "ridiculous" a model looks jumping on narrow surfaces will look ridiculous any way you slice it, be it someone on horseback or a dire bear. Anything else is art department, animation, and programming, which is again something I think is insufficient for a form post answer.

4. Combat Animations
If mounts were available for everyone, I would wholeheartedly agree that combat animations were a must. Even if it was just paladins alone, it would be awesome if people could have their weapons and have fluid animations and such. But that would require more code and work then the existing mechanics.

The druid's wildshape is a simple adaptation using existing mechanics to make it easier and more likely for the DDO team to incorporate. Instead of looking like a wolf with wolf stats, you look like a mounted knight with mounted knight stats. For simplicity's sake, a lance or spear was suggested for the knight wield, as well as a shield. While in "mounted" form, the paladin's melee damage starts off at 1d8 piercing, x3 crit, considered two hands for damage bonuses, but still allows you a shield bonus. And then increasing in base damage at levels the mount would get its bonuses in PnP.

Is it ideal? No. I would love customizations for horses, picking colors, putting on armor, having the paladins using whatever weapons they have available and looking cool while swinging. But, given the current tools and mechanics that exist in the game, I feel this is the best option to allow the paladin's mount to come into the game at this point in time.

5. Not A Large World
I agree that DDO is much more enclosed and not mount-friendly. I also feel that the paladin's mount is the exception, because, as stated numerous times already, it is a "magical horse." An ATH - All-Terrain Horse. Except swimming.

6. Pet Class
This is not the focus of the thread. It was suggested by someone else, I entertained I had not thought of paladins as a pet class and it might be interesting, but if it had to one or the other, I'd prefer to see it as a mount. Since then, the only discussion of having a paladin as a "pet class" has been people disagreeing with the idea, and I or LeoLionxxx having to point out that we're not discussing that anymore.

7. Horses Lookin' Pretty
If you want to forgo extra DPS simply because you don't like the way the horses look or the way the combat animations are, more power to you. I don't see how an aesthetic opinion makes any game mechanics or the idea itself bad, however.

Tom_Hunters
11-18-2012, 06:38 AM
I think ppl ask for a mount for pally for several reasons:

1. utility (adding speed/dps)
2. lore
3. appearance

putting 2 & 3 aside for the moment
1. can actually quite easily done with the game mechanics now
just like the squirrelly summon, you summon a mount, then you got bonus to move, to hit, dmg, trip DC, etc
you can also ask it to scout or move around, and it can get hurt too
though it may look a bit weird that you can't really mount your mount, but that satisfy the practical benefits of having a mount

Doxmaster
11-19-2012, 12:27 PM
Quick and dirty solution:

Add a move-speed boost, small bonus to damage and small bonus to AC. Upon activaitng the ability, the image of a horse is momentarily imposed over the paladin.

Bam, done.

LeoLionxxx
11-20-2012, 02:16 PM
I think ppl ask for a mount for pally for several reasons:

*snip*
just like the squirrelly summon, you summon a mount, then you got bonus to move, to hit, dmg, trip DC, etc
you can also ask it to scout or move around, and it can get hurt too
though it may look a bit weird that you can't really mount your mount, but that satisfy the practical benefits of having a mount

No. The whole idea has been to use the druid shape-shifting mechanic to make the paladin ride the horse.
A little teensy frog is one thing to have following you, but a big hulking horse? No, the way to go with this is the paladin is ON the horse.